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Confidence Finally Kicks in!

February 13, 2013

There are signs that we, as a nayshun, are finally realising that things aren’t so bad after all.

Today the Australian Stock Exchange broke through the 5000 points barrier and a report from NAB confirmed that business confidence gained strength in January.

Of course, the five thousand figure is just a “number,” however the ASX has been making modest but steady gains for some time and transcending the 5000 mark will be a confidence boost for many.

This is good news not just for investors but for all Australians.

Despite a relentless campaign of negativity and fear-mongering from the Federal Opposition, the impacts of the Labor Government’s Carbon Tax have generally been negligible.

Coupled with low unemployment, low inflation and low interest rates, Australia is sitting in a remarkably comfortable position in comparison to other developed nations.

It’s ironic therefore, that the Government is facing almost certain defeat at the next election.

Given the current economic environment it’s almost incredulous to contemplate that the Government is on the nose with the majority of the Australian voting public.

Part of the problem is Labor’s inability to articulate its achievements effectively.  They are poor media managers and whoever is advising them ought to have been given the heave years ago.

Some blame a hostile media for Labor’s failures, and while this may be true to some extent, it also reflects Labor’s ability to manage media effectively and to dictate the debate.

The now famous “misogyny” speech confirmed that Julia Gillard can be a powerful orator.  She is at her best when unscripted, prepared and passionate.

Sadly we seldom get to see the PM in these circumstances.

I remain slightly optimistic that whatever’s left of the Labor Party can still win the next election however what’s needed is a powerful campaign that effectively conveys its many achievements as well as trumpeting improving economic conditions and the ever-elusive “confidence” indicator.

The only effective communicator capable of delivering on that front is Kevin Rudd.

 

 

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541 Comments leave one →
  1. February 13, 2013 5:33 pm

    “COULD BE WORSE”…

    It’s a worthy creed. Has gotten me through some shit.

  2. February 13, 2013 5:53 pm

    lt`s a battle over `opposition` reb. More than half of Labor would prefer to be in opposition, rather than have Kevin07 back in charge. On the other hand, Liberal are hell bent on remaining in opposition by keeping Mr-Rabbit in charge.

  3. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 13, 2013 6:31 pm

    You had me right up until the last sentence, reb.

  4. February 13, 2013 6:34 pm

    Who do you think could do a better job splatter, from the current Labor mob…?

  5. el gordo permalink
    February 13, 2013 6:41 pm

    ‘….the impacts of the Labor Government’s Carbon Tax have generally been negligible.’

    Except for the negative impact on very small business … joolya made sure her constituents were featherbedded.

  6. el gordo permalink
    February 13, 2013 7:09 pm

    Yep, it doesn’t have to be kev.

    Gary Gray, Stephen Smith and Melissa Parke are the last remaining House of Representative members in WA.

    In the coming election they will most likely lose their seats, this will be a complete and utter disaster for Labor.

    You already know my thinking on this, so I won’t labour the point.

  7. February 13, 2013 7:13 pm

    “I won’t labour the point.”

    Oh go on, you know you want to…. 🙄

  8. TB Queensland permalink
    February 13, 2013 7:13 pm

    It’s ironic therefore, that the Government is facing almost certain defeat at the next election.

    A week is a long time in politics … just think – 30 weeks to go … 😦

  9. TB Queensland permalink
    February 13, 2013 7:17 pm

    Except for the negative impact on very small business …

    What cock … *

    (*BTW, I started up in 1992 – check the “economics” then :”roll: … 70% of small businesses fail … no fault of the government (of any colour) … )

  10. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 13, 2013 7:31 pm

    Gillard has no credibility when she opens her mouth. She could make the most interesting and informative announcement in modern history and no one would believe her.

    Gillard is well past her use by date.

    Swan is just a blustering bulls!t artist. He represents the worst of political behaviour, presentation, attitude, competence… I’ve lost count of the number of TVs I’ve put my foot through.

    Rudd is effective and people have now forgotten his inventive use of language. By the time they recall it, he’ll have won the election. He’ll do.

  11. el gordo permalink
    February 13, 2013 7:34 pm

    All VSBs in my town had to pay three times our normal power bill and we are not happy.

    Small businesses do fail regularly, but up until the tax we were all viable operations. Exit strategies are now gaining in popularity as we struggle to pay the bills.

  12. el gordo permalink
    February 13, 2013 8:00 pm

  13. February 13, 2013 8:56 pm

    *sigh* No one’s interested in your climate change obsession egg. Why can’t you just go to your room…

  14. el gordo permalink
    February 13, 2013 9:17 pm

    Young people these days have no respect.

  15. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 14, 2013 10:18 am

    “Some blame a hostile media for Labor’s failures,…………..”

    LOL

    Why not just Wayne Swan and Gillards attrocious negotiation skills?
    **********************************************************************
    GILLARD

    Gillards problem can be traced straight back to February 2010 when she announced the Carbon Tax plus the bullshit she caried on with about trying to convince people she “always wanted to price carbon” so that was never promised.

    She treated the electorate like idiots and they hate her for it and she’ll never recover.

    She could have easily told the Greens to fuck off and go deal with Abbott.

    How can you blame the Media for that ??????????????????????????
    *************************************************************************
    SWAN
    Then if you step back and look at the bigger picture the past economic performance gets a “satisfactory” pass mark.

    But Swan has been promising a Surplus month after month after month. The Media didnt make him do that. He fed it to them.

    Finally he admits defeat and now he starts talking not about a Surplus but about Tax Increases on Superannuation etc. Then this morning he refuses to rule out income tax increases to

    a) Return the Budget to Surplus
    b) Fund Gonski
    c) Fund the NDS
    d) Fund the $4B hole for ongoing compensation paymments that will arrive when the Carbon Tax goes to an ETS and revenue drops from $23 p/tonne to the current market rate of $6

    The Media does not foist these policies onto Swan and Gillard

    Now that Swan had no credibility in his own estimates ( with all the resurces of Treasury behind him) he can now be held up to deserved ridicule whenever he questions the LNPs costings as we head to an election

    Swan’s a joke and Gillard is the biggest vomit inducing lying low life maggot of a PM to ever occupy the Lodge

  16. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 14, 2013 10:43 am

    As if on cue this comes out this morning on the E-Trade website
    **********************************************************************************
    AAP

    TRUST IN GOVERNMENT BUCKS GLOBAL TREND

    14/02/2013 09:47AM AEST

    The federal government will face a hostile voting public in September that no longer thinks it is trustworthy.

    A new survey has found Australia is bucking a global trend of people increasingly trusting both their country’s government and business leaders.

    The Edelman Trust Barometer for 2013 found trust improved across the four institutions of government, business, non-governmental organisations and the media in all 26 countries it monitors annually, apart from Australia – where they all fell.

    Edelman, a public relations firm, believes the results in terms of government were due to broken promises, a much publicised leadership ballot and continued speculation about a slowing economy in 2012, leading to a crisis of leadership.

    The poll of 1000 Australians, in the global survey of 31,000 respondents, found the credibility of government leaders had dropped four percentage points over the past year to just 30 per cent.

    Furthermore, only 32 per cent trust government leaders to tell the truth, down from 38 per cent last year, with over half (52 per cent) blaming poor performance and incompetence as the primary reason for trusting government less over the past year.

    Australian business also fared badly, with 46 per cent not trusting corporate leaders to tell the truth and only 32 per cent believing a chief executive of a company is a credible source of information.

    “Australian business and government currently has a leadership vacuum that engagement, integrity and purpose should fill,” Edelman Australia chief executive Michelle Hutton said, releasing the report on Wednesday.

    “Re-engaging an otherwise ambivalent public has to start with genuine open dialogue.”
    The overall Edelman Trust Index for Australia declined to 39 points in 2013 from 40 points in 2012.

    In comparison, its index for the UK rose to 43 points from 35 points, in the US it increased to 45 points from 40 points and in Japan it was up to 35 points from 32 points.

    *******************************************************************************************

  17. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 14, 2013 10:48 am

    I enjoy the “blame the media” game.

    Don’t forget that the behaviour of Thomson was originally a “media beat up”. Every foible of this government is apparently the fault of the media.

    …except the poor polling – that can apparently be blamed on corrupt pollsters.

  18. TB Queensland permalink
    February 14, 2013 11:10 am

    Gillard is the biggest vomit inducing lying low life maggot of a PM to ever occupy the Lodge

    And you wonder why your childish posts lack any credibility … if I recall, the worst Howard ever got was, The Rodent, (a nickname from his own party) and everyone fired up … your language really is unnecessary and dilutes the points you rightly attempt to highlight …

  19. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 14, 2013 11:10 am

    “…except the poor polling – that can apparently be blamed on corrupt pollsters.”

    ROFLMAO

    One of your best lines ever ToM………………………One of your best

  20. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 14, 2013 11:15 am

    “… your language really is unnecessary”

    Let Splatterbottom decide ………………….he/she is always quietly spoken

    Where is he/she these days ?

    Whats your opinion of the PM Splatter if you are out there somewhere ?

  21. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 14, 2013 11:33 am

    And despite the claims that the 1 July introduction of the Carbon Tax went well for Gillard it seems that now the Opposition can point to a new sting in its tail as initial estimates are that there will now be a $4 Billion hole in the Budget when it morphs into an ETS just to pay the compensating Welfare and “Overcompensation” payments.

    We have not heard the last of the Carbon Tax yet

  22. TB Queensland permalink
    February 14, 2013 11:34 am

    Let Splatterbottom decide …

    Yeah, I could just see you two in the schoolyard …

    BTW, I’ve called out, sp, on his “colourful” language before and I’ve discovered I’m not the only one …

  23. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 14, 2013 11:34 am

    “… your language really is unnecessary”

    And maybe I just do it to get a reaction from…………………………………………You

    ROFLMAO

  24. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 14, 2013 11:47 am

    “vomit inducing lying low life maggot” is fairly tame. In terms of political venom it is hard to go past psychotic leftist Marieke Hardy who said re Brendan Nelson:

    “glass the c . . .’s wife and their children because they don’t deserve to procreate and have any children themselves”

  25. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 14, 2013 11:54 am

    As to my view of Gillard, I posted this comment here a while back:

    She’s hit rock-bottom so hard I almost feel sorry for her. She’s come a long way down from vibrant university activist to washed-out haggard hack.

    What we see here is the corrosive effect of the chicanery necessary to get the top job. At first it was just careful phrasing, then a little bit of necessary spin, perhaps emphasising different points to different audiences, then it is a cynical game justified by your need to compete with your lying opponent. But you still think you understand your core values. People say you are wooden when delivering your insincere promises so you start acting like you believe them – a rasp in the voice, a trace of a tear and soon you can no longer distinguish your principles from your lies. Like an entertainer you are only truly alive when you are on the stage delivering your lines.

    One day you catch yourself lecturing the Australian people on the evils of gay marriage. By this stage you no longer care. Power is an end in itself. Your core values have been hollowed out but, in the thrall of the thrill of it all, you don’t miss them.

    And now her audience sees through her. Her words mean nothing. She is a bitter broken hag. Lurching about the stage in her tattered robes there is no sympathy for her, only disgust. As she tries to wash out that damned spot the ghost of Kevin smirks from the wings. At least he was cut down in his prime and did not have to endure waking each day to the contempt of a nation sickened by the thought that they will have to endure years more of this hellish pantomime.

    Not much has changed to cause me to alter my view.

  26. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 14, 2013 12:11 pm

    LOL @ splatter

  27. TB Queensland permalink
    February 14, 2013 12:12 pm

    Not much has changed to cause me to alter my view.

    No problem with that post or its language (could apply to many of the politicians in Parliament today – just change he to she but why hag? … you have posted worse …

    And you do know what I’m talking about … your selection in the post above the last one tells us that …

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    And maybe I just do it to get a reaction from…………………………………………You</i.

    I should be flattered? FMD … tiny minds …

  28. TB Queensland permalink
    February 14, 2013 12:13 pm

    LOL @ splatter

    shakes head … The Playgroup …

  29. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 14, 2013 12:29 pm

    All that makes sense to me SB.

    By the way, remember when Rudd was PM… the last poll before he was knifed had the ALP in front 2PP – 52% to 48%. The hacks panicked at these results, they considered Gillard a “vote magnet”

  30. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 14, 2013 12:32 pm

    TB, “Hag” was exactly the image I had in mind so I used that word rather than straining for something more PC. Generally, I don’t have a problem with gender specific nouns – they enrich the language. The new puritans seem to want to dumb-down our mother tongue. I usually draw the line at “bitch”, but not always. Really we should be able to use “bitch” and “prick” and “bastard” for either gender. Sadly, in these confused times offence-taking has become an art form which, correctly carried off, can greatly enhance one’s status among the intellectual elite.

    Also, Hardy’s comment that “they don’t deserve to procreate and have any children themselves” is pretty funny coming from the grandaughter of a Stalinist stooge.

  31. TB Queensland permalink
    February 14, 2013 1:18 pm

    Shit, I almost replied … must be s lipping … 😉

  32. February 14, 2013 1:28 pm

    By the way, remember when Mr-Rabbit ran in 2010,
    the last poll before the vote had Mr-Rabbit at 79 seats.
    The hacks are dopes, they considered Mr-Rabbit a “vote magnet”

  33. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 14, 2013 1:48 pm

    “when Rudd was PM… the last poll before he was knifed had the ALP in front 2PP – 52% to 48%. The hacks panicked at these results, they considered Gillard a “vote magnet”

    Take a bow Paul Howes, master tactician, political genius and veritable modern day Machiavelli.

    It is truly sad that Labor has sunk to this. And when you look at Williamson, Thomson, Obeid, MCDonald, Maitland, Nuttall, Roozendaal, Wilson, Blewett and Orkopolous and the sundry other pedophiles that infest the party you appreciate the truth of Beazley Snr’s lament that a movement which once attracted by the cream of the working class is now home to the dregs of the middle class.

    And if you think that isn’t bad enough look at the alternative – a collection of unprincipled frothing lunatics who will say and do anything to gain power.

  34. February 14, 2013 1:54 pm

    ” unprincipled frothing lunatics ”
    wot splatter, you don`t like the teabags.?

  35. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 14, 2013 2:18 pm

    The hacks panicked at these results, they considered Gillard a “vote magnet”

    No they didn’t, that was the only public excuse they could muster for the insider ‘coup’ against Rudd by the NSW right wing, it was always about the overthrow of Kevin because he wasn’t following their dictates.

    So much agonising, so much pain, all for nought really. If the labor right wing had held their ground, the original mining tax would be already in. Kevin lost his job because the industry and lobby is bigger than any government. I remember thinking at the time of the ‘new’ compromised MRRT “what’s to stop the states and miners colluding over royalties and forcing the feds to pay for it?”

    There was no way Kevin was going to give in on the miners tax and that is why they rolled him, the nation sold out because the right wing of Labor are wedded to neoliberal ideology and caved in to political pressure from the industry. The public were with Rudd Labor on this tax, they would have been on a winner, why did they sell us out? Too cowardly, too corrupted by power to do what is right. Same with the pokies reforms, Labor get $ from the industry, so refuse to act in the public interest.

    The jobs, jobs, jobs mantra has become an all important priority in Labor, it outweighs any vision, any much needed reform and any duty to ‘the public good’. The alternative is a party that is even more wedded to corporate representation and unregulated profiteering with worker exploitation.

    We’ve now come full circle. The right wing of Labor must bear full responsibility for the trashing and destruction of the party’s reputation. It appears that they still refuse to do what is right and decent by all which is to give up personal power and implement a grass roots reform of the party to allow for a democratic re-structure.

    Either a power crazed and ruthless Abbott gets in by undeserved default or a power crazed and ruthless right wing Labor gets back in by the skin of their teeth – what is the point to holding an election, it’s the public who are overlooked, sidelined and ignored.

    I’m still hoping for another minority govt. The only time we progress as a nation is when the two majors are forced into it, they are both corrupt and corrupted, neither of them should be allowed to run the country.

  36. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 14, 2013 2:22 pm

    Just look at them, 7.30! Every time I get disgusted with this government I look at the alternative and think “Oh shit”. All they have to do is to appear to be vaguely human and reasonably sane and victory will be theirs, but they can’t even manage that. They can’t help themselves. They can’t keep the lid on their inner idiot. This should be a no-brainer but apparently not if the brainless coalition are anything to go on. I think that this government is so bad that anything has to be better, but then ….. just look at the alternative! For every spittle-flecked Albanese there is an unhinged Heffernan, for the unlovely Gillard there is the neanderthal Abbott and for that vindictive idiot Swan there is the vacuous idiot Hockey. God help us all!

    On the other thread reb asked me who should lead if not Rudd. It is a tough question but, after much agonising, I think that if Labor put one of the grown-ups (like Crean or Ferguson) in charge, even on a short-term basis, I would probably vote for them. In the longer term, I think Bradbury is leadership material but he is unlikely to survive the next election.

  37. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 14, 2013 2:22 pm

    “…you appreciate the truth of Beazley Snr’s lament that a movement which once attracted by the cream of the working class is now home to the dregs of the middle class…”

    As opposed to the dregs of the upper class, those who know “the price of everything and the value of nothing”

  38. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 14, 2013 2:31 pm

    Rudd – PM
    Smith – Foreign Affairs & Deputy
    Shorten – Treasurer
    Bowen – Defense
    Ferguson – Trade
    Albanese – Health
    McClelland – Attorney General
    Cameron – Immigration

    A Rudd Cabinet could look far better than the current one.

  39. February 14, 2013 3:13 pm

    Just look at them, 7.30! Every time I get disgusted with this government I look at the alternative and think “Oh shit”. All they have to do is to appear to be vaguely human
    everyone l know off-line, has been exactly like this since 2010 splatter, that`s an excellent rant too by the way

  40. February 14, 2013 3:21 pm

    I’m still hoping for another minority govt. The only time we progress as a nation is when the two majors are forced into it, they are both corrupt and corrupted, neither of them should be allowed to run the country.
    excellent rant armchair and couldn`t agree more, l don`t know if it`s just me, but it seems there is a daily increase in the number of folks shited-off with the `duopoly`. (+embedded-media)

  41. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 14, 2013 3:43 pm

    Rudd – PM
    Combet – Defence & Deputy
    Emerson – Treasurer
    Butler – Health
    Bradbury – Trade
    Cameron – Immigration
    Smith – Foreign Affairs
    Dreyfus – Attorney General
    Leigh – Climate Change
    Plibersek – Education & Indigenous
    Clare – Agriculture & Fisheries
    Albanese – Employment & IR

    I would have liked to see Chris Evans somewhere but he’s had a gut full.

  42. TB Queensland permalink
    February 14, 2013 3:56 pm

    KL! Just I just got some movies in the mail! The Minister (and me!) blown away … many thanks … surprise? BS … bloody brillaint!

    Off to get g/kids!

  43. el gordo permalink
    February 14, 2013 4:01 pm

    Gary Gray PM and Bradbury (treasurer) is a progressive ticket.

  44. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 14, 2013 4:05 pm

    Doug Cameron has demonstrated that he is an effective advocate for asylum seekers. I think he could turn public sentiment on the issue.

    I knew him earlier in his (union) career, he’s certainly polished himself up since going into parliament.

  45. February 14, 2013 4:07 pm

    hey armchair, would you like tanner in your list if he was around.?

  46. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 14, 2013 4:29 pm

    hey armchair, would you like tanner in your list if he was around.?

    Nope, disenchanted with the man seeing his performance out-of-office. His immediate & well paid entry into a finance related job, the super ego with the book timed to further embarrass Labor. I thought his Q & A performance was disgusting when along with pyne and akerman he behaved rudely as just another sexist male abbott A-type personality. Tanner’s held sideline conversations, spoke over and interrupted kate ellis as she tried to answer questions from the public.

    ben pobjie had a great insight

    Ugh:

    http://benpobjie.blogspot.com.au/2012/10/ugh.html

  47. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 14, 2013 4:46 pm

    What message would you really send by switching your vote from the ALP to the Liberals?:

    http://anonymouslefty.wordpress.com/2013/02/06/if-youre-pissed-off-with-the-alp-that-doesnt-mean-you-have-to-vote-for-the-liberals/

    …If you want to send the message that Labor’s behaviour has been dodgy and you’re disgusted with it and you want them to actually be a progressive party – then the choice is obvious. Vote for the Greens and preference Labor above the Liberals.

    My sentiments exactly.

  48. TB Queensland permalink
    February 14, 2013 5:19 pm

    Vote for the Greens and preference Labor above the Liberals.

    Then I’d worry that the Greens would get actually get bums on seats in Parliament and really shut the show down … I don’t mind teepees and BBQs but most wouldn’t … 🙂

    Not keen on horses though and I’ve just bought a new car!

    Nah! Need a better plan than that – it is early days though …

  49. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 14, 2013 5:44 pm

    “…If you want to send the message that Labor’s behaviour has been dodgy and you’re disgusted with it and you want them to actually be a progressive party…………”

    When you look at the Opinion Polls I’d say this government has unified most of the electorate in a way very few would have thought possible.

    In fact I think they still have enough time left to do an even better job in unifying the vote.

    In fact Gillard has led a government quite unlike anything we have seen in Opinion Poll history.

    ROFLMAO

  50. February 14, 2013 6:02 pm

    ” Opinion Poll history.”
    2010, Mr-Rabbit, 79 seats!
    ROFLMAO (teabag stomping is fun)

  51. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 14, 2013 6:29 pm

    Then I’d worry that the Greens would get actually get bums on seats in Parliament and really shut the show down …

    G’arn, be daring, don’t be frightened! What’s the worst that could happen, that we might actually get a better system than we have now?
    It would be nice if the right wing death grip that’s in place in australia shifted back a little to the centre and our economy served the needs of our society more.

    Everyone whinges about the corrupt duopoly but they are too scared to actually put their vote where it counts to change the status quo!

  52. Oops Inconvenient Facts permalink
    February 14, 2013 6:33 pm

    In fact Gillard has led a government quite unlike anything we have seen in Opinion Poll history.

    Newspoll eight months before the election:

    Satisfaction ratings March 2001
    PMJH S = 28 D=64 Net -36
    LOTO S = 39 D=47 Net -6

    Satisfaction ratings January 2013
    PMJG S = 38 D=49 Net -11
    LOTO S = 28 D=59 Net -31

    Better PM March 2001
    PMJH = 34
    LOTO = 40

    Better PM January 2013
    PMJG = 45
    LOTO = 33

    Voting Intention March 2001
    Coal = 35
    Labor = 48
    Green = 3
    Dem = 3
    ON = 6
    Others = 4

    Voting Intention January 2013
    Coal = 44
    Labor = 38
    Green = 9
    Others = 9

    I’d say this government has a way to go yet to reach the polling depths of the Howard government.

  53. February 14, 2013 7:11 pm

    I would be very sorry to see Australia suffer under a rightwing government as we in the UK are.

  54. February 14, 2013 7:53 pm

    So, Oops Inconvenient Facts,
    what exactly does each of your numbers mean.?
    talk seats, all other numbers are bullshit

  55. TB Queensland permalink
    February 14, 2013 7:55 pm

    Everyone whinges about the corrupt duopoly but they are too scared to actually put their vote where it counts to change the status quo!

    I agree with your sentiments, KL, but the Greens are so naieve especially now with Bob Brown retired … and I can assure you, “scared”, isn’t exactly the word I would use … I’ve seen a few governments come and go … I’ve just never seen so much corruption and snouts in the trough … its always been there … JBPs government was a classic … and don’t think Noddy Newman’s lot aren’t manufacturing the brown paper bags as I hit the keys!

    The problem with the, Greens, for me, is that they don’t “get” how capitalism works … and if they don’t — how do they deal with Uber Kapitalism … and once again, look at the leader of the Greens is she really a “world” leader … is Abbott, is Gillard … is any Australian politician …?!?!

    And once and for all! Government does not really have all that much influence on P&L … no matter how much they (and political supporters) splutter … very few understand how business really works … the Twiggys and the Ginas will make money hand over fist no matter what government’s do … until the market dries up … just like the sheep farmers in the 1930s-40’s …

    The MRRT was a tax on super profit and it was watered down because people in the ALP either were paid off to make a change or were faced down by people with lots of money and POWER! And those who wanted lots of money and power!

    The Robber Barons exist – they always have … good folk take ’em on … frankly, I don’t think the Greens have the “balls” …

  56. TB Queensland permalink
    February 14, 2013 7:56 pm

    TPI

    I would be very sorry to see Australia suffer under a rightwing government as we in the UK are.

    That’s exactly the sentiment I think my cousin in Sussex would post!

  57. TB Queensland permalink
    February 14, 2013 7:58 pm

    … what exactly does each of your numbers mean.?

    Yeah, I’m in agreement with, 00773300, OIF?

  58. February 14, 2013 8:01 pm

    great expectations
    once upon a Liberal nightmare, there was a little boy named John Hewson who had big dreams to become prezzy-dent of his class-room. All johns friends, with and without cameras came to the big-event, known as the `un-losable` election. Everything was going well until little john hewson slipped and fell arse-backwards onto a birthday cake.
    .
    Mr-Rabbit will have a birthday cake too.

  59. February 14, 2013 8:08 pm

    ” the Greens are so naieve ”
    except they were 30 years ahead of the duopoly and the embedded media and 98% of scientists now stand behind them

  60. TB Queensland permalink
    February 14, 2013 8:09 pm

    Mr-Rabbit will have a birthday cake too.

    Who’s Mr-Rabbit?

  61. Oops Inconvenient Facts permalink
    February 14, 2013 8:20 pm

    http://www.newspoll.com.au/opinion-polls-2/opinion-polls-2/

    It is simply a comparison of standard newspoll figures at a point in time eight months before elections, in response to the rubbish posted by 2DT Shock Jock, no more, no less.

    PMJH = Prime Minister John Howard
    PMJG = Prime Minister Julia Gillard
    LOTO = Leader Of The Opposition

    S = Satisfaction rating
    D = Dissatisfaction rating

    All numbers are percentages.

    2001, eight months out from an election was demonstrably worse for the Howard government than the current figures are for the Gillard government. Not “quite unlike anything we have seen in Opinion Poll history.

  62. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 14, 2013 9:13 pm

    The Robber Barons exist – they always have … good folk take ‘em on … frankly, I don’t think the Greens have the “balls” …

    It’s pretty obvious that Labor and the Coalition haven’t had the balls for a long time. Labor allows itself to be neutered or castrated and the Libs rip their own balls off and hand them over to the robber barons willingly.
    No-one now is standing up to them, the greens might surprise you, they can’t do worse than what we’ve got now. But a big message would be sent to the duopoly, to shape up or continue into irrelevance and contempt.

  63. TB Queensland permalink
    February 14, 2013 9:46 pm

    Agree with all that, KL … and as you know I don’t know which way to vote (first time ever) as do many disenchanted Labor voters ex-supporters …

    Coupla hundred days to go …

  64. Truly Evil Walrus @ Palm Bitch permalink
    February 14, 2013 9:56 pm

    Looks like someone just like Baachus is haunting.

    LOL still relying on primary with the Greens on 3% in 2001

    I wish 3% for them anyday .

    In your dreams Baachus clone LOL

    I’ll stand by my statement.

    No mention of 2pp .

  65. Truly Evil Walrus @ Palm Bitch permalink
    February 14, 2013 10:00 pm

    New polls next week will confirm that the entire government is NOT on any performance enhancing drugs.

  66. Truly Evil Walrus @ Palm Bitch permalink
    February 14, 2013 10:42 pm

    As many do on Valentines Night we go to a restaurant. Tonight we went very local and the owner said business had picked up.

    The “vibe” ( something 730 loves) he said was that “people feel so ……very very happy because they was like looking forward to a holiday and it come on 14 September. They excited vey much. Many smiling happy faces”

    “They very happy” ……” “No more redhead”

    Yes we had Vietnamese.

  67. Truly Evil Walrus @ Palm Bitch permalink
    February 14, 2013 10:53 pm

    “I would be very sorry to see Australia suffer under a rightwing government as we in the UK are.”

    Do you seriously believe you can run up government deficits year after year after year and continue to borrow year after year after year and your lenders will continue to give you money ?

    Rather than pay the interest you borrow more money to make repayments.

    Well do you ?

    And don’t give me the crap that you can just print more money as that debases the value of your currency and exposes the lender to currency losses

    Hastening your demise.

    What would you do when lenders eventually refuse to lend anymore?

  68. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 15, 2013 9:42 am

    No-one now is standing up to them, the greens might surprise you, they can’t do worse than what we’ve got now.

    I don’t know about that. I don’t think the Greens are living in the real world, they don’t get employment or business demands.

    The Greens are marginal. What we need is a socially progressive party that isn’t a servant of some shady business or union characters. The Democrats fitted the bill, but they hardly qualify as a party now.

  69. February 15, 2013 11:01 am

    “` the duopoly, to shape up or continue into irrelevance and contempt.“`
    great rant armchair, you`ve been on great roll this week 🙂
    .
    l would suspect the duopoly could lose more seats than their own self-delusion would admit, if more “other“ candidates ran in the next election. Many neighbors and friends have fallen off the tea-trolley and ditched the knifers.

  70. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 15, 2013 2:40 pm

    “They very happy” ……” “No more redhead”
    Yes we had Vietnamese.

    Just out of the blue, with no prompting or questioning from you, your restauranter makes a completely biased political comment? Doesn’t fit with any asian [or any] restaurants that I go to!

    I don’t know about that. I don’t think the Greens are living in the real world, they don’t get employment or business demands.

    They know the real world, they live in it, they are more in touch with the real world than the elitist labor and lib pollies who are too scared to meet real people unless it’s stage managed and controlled by them. I think you’d be surprises at how much about business and employment that the greens ‘get’. There are two factions in the greens, the environmentalists and the urbanites, the urbanites are very switched on the economy and business [I see it as a future conflict within the greens].

    Do you think they don’t ‘get’ business demands – or are they not prepared to grovel before the demands of business and concede to all demands as the other two do?

    Perhaps they really do have ‘the balls’ [TB’s words] to take ’em on. That’s why labor and the coalition along with rupert’s journos spend so much time hating and demonising them to the public, the greens threaten their cosy power sharing arrangement.

    They got us the carbon tax didn’t they? you can bet they would have been all for the original mining tax too, in fact they already state that the existing subsidies to miners should be ceased as well.

  71. February 15, 2013 2:54 pm

    ” existing subsidies to miners should be ceased as well.”
    Yep, they want to rightly remove a lot of the corporate welfare and, they were the only one`s that stood against losing a couple of more `vietnams` in the middle-east and tell george-w where to go.

  72. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 15, 2013 3:10 pm

    “Doesn’t fit with any asian [or any] restaurants that I go to!”

    A good host reads his clients and dishes up the banter they want to hear. Pretty sure Walrus left a decent tip!

  73. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 15, 2013 3:45 pm

    “…..Just out of the blue, with no prompting or questioning from you,…”

    All I did was ask him how business is. We go there at least once a month and last time on a Saturday night (it was raining I concede) he said at the time….. “it is tar-wobble”

  74. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 15, 2013 3:54 pm

    “….the urbanites are very switched on the economy and business [I see it as a future conflict within the greens].”

    ROFLMAO

    Oh yeah……………sure.

    Inner city Marrickville Council dominated by the Greens decides to boycott Israeli goods and services plus its branch decides to protest outside Max Bremmer Coffee shops because there is some vague relationship to the Israeli Army.

    They cant even run a Council properly. Why you’d think they know anything about business is laughable.

  75. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 15, 2013 3:56 pm

    Tick..Tick…Tick…Tick….Tick…Tick..Tick…Tick…Tick….Tick…

    Thats the sound of the ALP leadership timebomb hidden within the Opinion Polls due out next week

    Parliament back on the 12th……………………it will be an interesting Autumn

  76. February 15, 2013 4:10 pm

    Tick_ Tick_ Tick_
    teabags aren`t paying attention to katters-kids
    Tick_ Tick_ Tick_
    teabags don`t realize Mr-Rabbits latest bullshit won`t go the distance
    .
    Tick_ Tick_ Tick_
    teabags should do some research

  77. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 15, 2013 4:12 pm

    We need TomR here to hose down all this ridiculous leadership speculation. Just like he did last February and March

  78. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 15, 2013 4:21 pm

    That’s right, there are those with a remarkable track record of identifying “baseless media speculation”.

    Did you know that it’s “baseless media speculation” that Oakeshott is a dill? Apparently those who have never been to Port Macquarie believe he remains very popular.

  79. February 15, 2013 4:29 pm

    Are you claiming Oakeshott will lose his seat yomm.?

  80. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 15, 2013 4:43 pm

    Well 730, I’ve said I pop into Port Macquarie reasonably regularly.

    I was there during the 2010 election and Oakeshott’s popularity was remarkable. Maybe 1 in 10 houses and shops displayed his poster. I was there a year later, the people who had admired him a year earlier couldn’t stand him, jilted lover style reaction. I was there again a few months ago, and I think he is still greatly disliked.

    On the sentiment I experience, I think he will lose his seat.

  81. February 15, 2013 4:58 pm

    Thanks yomm, that`s the kind of info l reckon is way ahead of the noise-polls. lf you go back to port-macq before sep-14, keep an eye open for who the posters are showing this time round.

  82. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 15, 2013 5:21 pm

    The last poll (2011) which looked specifically at Lyne showed Crackpot Oakeshott losing 38-62 after preferences. He may improve slightly on that in September, but he is gone gone gone.

    The striking thing about the poll is that it reveals that about 38% of the population are imbeciles.

  83. February 15, 2013 5:39 pm

    hey splatter, was Lyne previously a nationals seat.?
    (before oakeshott)

  84. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 15, 2013 5:57 pm

    Surely it can only be a matter of time before Swan finally resigns. How long will the ALP continue to put up with this moron until they say enough is enough.

    “The federal government’s fiscal position continues to deteriorate with new data showing a $22 billion deficit in the six months to December 2012.”

    http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/budget-balance-at-2225bn-deficit-in-dec-20130215-2eibl.html

  85. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 15, 2013 7:06 pm

    I grew up in Lyne, lived there for quite a while and still have family there. It has been Nat/Country for as long as I can remember. Now that Oakeshott has exposed himself as a bloviating windbag prepared to back a Green/ALP coalition, his chances of re-election are nil.

  86. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 15, 2013 7:07 pm

    Just opening a very drinkable 2005 shiraz.

    It’s probably still about 30 and a good red is an ideal thirst quencher.

  87. February 15, 2013 7:36 pm

    Splatter, now that the Nat`s have been absorbed by the Libs, do you think Lyne would go to Libs or Katters.?
    (assuming Libs and Katters both run and they get a choice)

  88. TB Queensland permalink
    February 15, 2013 7:45 pm

    We go there at least once a month …

    So go every week and boost the economy … rich man! 😛

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I was there again a few months ago, and I think he is still greatly disliked.

    But now he has a political barra … the seam gas …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    He may improve slightly on that in September, but he is gone gone gone.

    Problem is we don’t live in the USof A – although many think we do … 😯

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Surely it can only be a matter of time before Swan finally resigns.

    Iagree … as will Hockey, Andrew and dear old Mirabella … oh, and not forgetting Abbott … Turnbull will eventually get fed up with attempting to defend Tony’s excruciating ignorance and gaffes … as displayed on Lateline last night …

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I grew up in Lyne,

    D’ja reckon? 😆

  89. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 15, 2013 8:44 pm

    The Nat will get in. Nats are still seen as better than Libs. Katterites will get nowhere.

  90. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 15, 2013 8:55 pm

    Here’s an unconfirmed and unaccountable tip…Julia & Tim will marry in July!

    If this doesn’t happen, forget who mentioned it.

    If the big event happens…remember where you heard it first!!!

  91. Truly Evil Walrus @ Palm Bitch permalink
    February 16, 2013 1:03 am

    “Here’s an unconfirmed and unaccountable tip…Julia & Tim will marry in July!”

    No ToM

    I’m going to violently disagree .

    She will do anything for a good poll to stave off Rudd.

    We will see a “baby bump”

    But it won’t be real

    The grub will do “whatever it takes”

    Just back from opening 2 large bottles if mineral water from Italy

    A very good thirst quencher

  92. Truly Evil Walrus @ Palm Bitch permalink
    February 16, 2013 1:28 am

    Where’s eg today ?

    We had lightning strikes on the Vatican ……..Nukes going off in north Korea …….now meteor strikes inRussia.

    Plus a fucking asteroid over Sydney tonight .

    We must be “watched”

  93. el gordo permalink
    February 16, 2013 8:09 am

    I’m still here and I agree with the Vietnamese restaurant owner, as soon as joolya announced a date there was an instant pickup in business.

    Its the certainty she brings to guvmint.

  94. TB Queensland permalink
    February 16, 2013 10:12 am

    Just back from opening 2 large bottles if mineral water from Italy

    JFC! Who would drink water imported halway around the fkn world … you’d be better paying more taxes … to support the poor sods who can’t afford the water out of the AUSTRALIAN municipal utilites pipe system …

    You’ll love this, Wally …

    AUSTRALIA should increase the GST and cut the company tax rate, an international report recommends.

    Revenue raised from the GST, at less than 4 per cent of Australia’s gross domestic product, is “relatively low” compared to the average raised by OECD countries through consumption taxes of 7 per cent of GDP.

    Conversely, Australia’s company tax rate of 30 cents in the dollar is “comparatively high for a capital-importing country like Australia,” compared to the OECD average of a little over 25 per cent.

    Economists say it is more efficient to tax consumption than capital, which can take flight if taxed too heavily.

    http://www.news.com.au/money/cost-of-living/australia-should-raise-gst-says-oecd/story-fnagkbpv-1226579093883

    Yep, give, The Robber Barons, more to waste and fuck suck the peasants dry …

    … nothing changes … the European and USA economies are rooted and the OECD tells us we should do the same?

    Experts? No wonder the French shortened the buggers by a head and the Russian peasants simply shot ’em …

    Vive la Republique! Tru Demokracie!

  95. el gordo permalink
    February 16, 2013 11:19 am

    Saw somewhere recently that seven percent of owners and employees of VSBs will be voting for joolya. It really is a disgrace.

  96. el gordo permalink
    February 16, 2013 11:39 am

    I’m still held in high moderation at the kaf and aime, so the blogmasta can vet my abuse.

  97. Truly Evil Walrus @ Palm Bitch permalink
    February 16, 2013 11:53 am

    I agree TB . Raise the GST.

    But increase the tax threshold and leave the company rate where it is.

    Plus drop stupid things like all home grants all baby bonus shit all family benefits a & b
    plus old age tax offsets etc

    Plus tax major lump sum withdrawals from super funds.

    Under no circumstance should you be able to blow all your super as soon as you retire. The 9% was always meant as a pension and salary sacrifice amounts should enhance it further. You should only be able to withdraw in a lump after tax contributions .

  98. February 16, 2013 12:43 pm

    El gordo, your comment got through. It was late being approved because I slept in.

  99. el gordo permalink
    February 16, 2013 1:52 pm

    Oh…well that’s all right then.

    In the interest of diversity it would be noice to have free and unhindered movement and not have the door closed in my face.

  100. el gordo permalink
    February 16, 2013 2:21 pm

    ‘It’s ironic therefore, that the Government is facing almost certain defeat at the next election.’

    It goes to the very heart of the problem…. its name is joolya. For the good of the party and the country she should give up the throne.

    http://pickeringpost.com/article/gillard-govt-in-chaos/931

  101. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 16, 2013 2:43 pm

    It’s odd that you remain in moderation EG. I’ve noticed several that are far more intent on creating annoyance than you (or me for that matter)

  102. el gordo permalink
    February 16, 2013 3:59 pm

    Its odd ToM, but I’m flattered anyone thinks my words need be checked before going up.

    Being held in perpetual moderation is a novel experience, but I don’t want anybody to get the impression I’m banned.

    This kind of misunderstanding can lead to confusion … even Miglo said I was spreading lies and stuff. You see, banning is a serious offence and should not be taken lightly.

  103. February 16, 2013 5:14 pm

    El gordo, you know clearly why you were put in moderation. It was due to you going to every topic and flooding them with your climate change rubbish. We have a thread for that. I’ll take you out of moderation in the expectation that you’ll stop the constant derailing.

  104. TB Queensland permalink
    February 16, 2013 6:07 pm

    I agree TB . Raise the GST.

    I knew you would … like most rich ‘n’ ridiculous, you never consider that most of Australia’s polulation has very limited disposable income … and more particularly those and fixed incomes and welfare …

    I do agree with Plus drop stupid things like all home grants all baby bonus shit all family benefits a & b, we had to get by with a fortnightly Child Endowment … a struggle but we got there … actually paid our fresh meat bill 🙂

    Plus tax major lump sum withdrawals from super funds. that’s a tricky one … I agree it’s to live off … but I draw down twice a year (and re-invest part – live off tother) we actually “skim” the earnings … to maintain as much capital as possible to earn the nect “skim” … but as you know I just bought my first brand new car … we paid cash – haven’t borrowed since 1989 … other retirees have similar one off needs …

    Anyhoo …

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    THE RECALCITRANTS STRIKE AGAIN!

    I see Senator Xylophone is being deported from Malaysia … 😆

    http://www.news.com.au/national/sa-senator-nick-xenophon-in-custody-in-malaysia-over-meetings-with-pro-democracy-mps-i/story-fndo4dzn-1226579351300

  105. el gordo permalink
    February 16, 2013 6:29 pm

    At the cafe I’ve been as good as gold on that score, but taking a lead from Treeman I may have flouted the rules occasionally.

    At AIMN I mentioned the biblical flood when the post was about a virgin birth.

    Reb thinks I’m a silly obsessed individual and sends me to my room.

    Its a question of mass delusion, the power of propaganda and how humanity was looking in the wrong direction at a pivotal moment in history.

  106. February 16, 2013 6:32 pm

    Reb is 100% correct.

    And he doesn’t stand alone on that matter.

  107. el gordo permalink
    February 16, 2013 6:55 pm

    My last deviation was not meant to derail, it was a graph showing the cost of power bills.

    At the time it was relevant to the conversation, TB was there and called me out, I just wanted to prove a point … not nip out the back and shout I’ve got a link.

    What sort of girlie man do you think I am?

  108. February 16, 2013 7:08 pm

    somebody is luck not to reside permanently in the spam-trap

  109. TB Queensland permalink
    February 16, 2013 7:18 pm

    At the time it was relevant to the conversation, TB was there and called me out

    I have no idea what you two are talking about … isn’t the sentence above contradictory?

    Why call you out if it was relevant?

    What sort of girlie man do you think I am?

    Now your using your feminine wiles, egg?

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Reb is 100% correct.

    And he doesn’t stand alone on that matter.

    But if, sreb, is 100% … how can anyone else be included? Just jokin’ …. maybe I’m ready for Eventide Old People’s Home … 😉

  110. TB Queensland permalink
    February 16, 2013 7:18 pm

    somebody is luck not to reside permanently in the spam-trap

    Pardon?

  111. el gordo permalink
    February 16, 2013 7:30 pm

    ‘Why call you out if it was relevant?’

    From memory, it was about whether prices had gone up and would it still be an election issue. Anyway, it doesn’t matter now.

    ‘Now your using your feminine wiles, egg?’

    Elsewhere they still refer to me in that way, so I thought I might make it part of my act.

  112. TB Queensland permalink
    February 16, 2013 8:05 pm

    Chuckle … so its just an “act” … 🙄

  113. el gordo permalink
    February 16, 2013 8:13 pm

    I’ve told them time and again that I’m male, but the thugs use my genteel nature as an opportunity to denigrate… very sexist.

    Admittedly I do like the company of alpha males for their wit and wisdom.

  114. TB Queensland permalink
    February 16, 2013 8:20 pm

    LOL!

  115. P. A. Lindrome permalink
    February 16, 2013 9:34 pm

    A man. A plan. A canal. Panama.

  116. el gordo permalink
    February 17, 2013 8:16 am

    ‘Hitler was a socialist. It’s an indisputable fact. The word Nazi is a contraction of “National Socialist”; the red in the background of the Nazi flag is a reference to its origins in communism; and as Hitler himself said in a speech of May 1, 1927:

    “We are Socialists, we are enemies of the capitalistic economic system for exploitation of the economically weak…”

    James Delingpole

  117. February 17, 2013 8:28 am

    too bad teabags don`t talk as enthusiastically about the fascists of 1930`s Italy, murdering people who wanted fair wages and conditions.
    .
    Bit too close to teabag theory.?

  118. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 17, 2013 10:47 am

    Polling reported today suggests that even with Abbott as leader, the Liberals are more popular with women.

    Gillard is just one big liability with voters in all demographics.

    I was out with a couple of traditional ALP types last night – she a public servant, he in inner urban latte drinker. Even those types find Gillard a turn off., though they did think the new glasses improved her image! They’re not ready to move to Abbott, but the disaffection is clear.

    When Gillard knifed Rudd, polls showed he had the ALP ahead 52-48 2pp. If they returned to Rudd, the first poll would bounce to about that level.

  119. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 12:03 pm

    There’s a lot more to what Hitler said than a speech in 1927. 🙄

    Hitler routed communists & crushed labour movements. Have a bit of a look, or read a bit more widely than Delingpole. Try putting several decades of his utterances into context; rather than cherrypicking his early, politically calculating years & speeches.
    It wouldn’t be hard to find quotes from the man utterly denouncing communism; violently so.

    The ‘socialism’ in Nazi is about as meaningful as the ‘democracy’ alluded to in Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (North Korea). It’s a rightwing red herring. A leftover vestige of the Party which Hitler comandeered in its infancy. He paid lipservice to a whole lot of ideological claptrap, which he was more than happy to recant or ignore after he’d secured the manipulated support of the masses.

    It’s no surprise that the right try & disown Hitler.

    People who’ve never read more than a few summaries of the man swallow it whole.

  120. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 12:16 pm

    Cue ToSY with a link to that other rightard smokescreener who wrote similar things about Hitler being a socialist. At least that knob was writing it during the era; not so much a rearguard defence as Delingpole is mounting.

    Hayek (?) , I think.

    Still, just one man’s analysis which is unsupported by a bigger picture framing of National Socialism.
    Bullshit, imo.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Serfdom

    For context, that book was lauded & promoted recently by none other than Glenn Beck. 😆

    And, oh look…Hayek throws Sancty a bone too. Another enthusiast for Pinochet…unfknblvbl

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hayek#Hayek.27s_views_on_Augusto_Pinochet

  121. Look and learn permalink
    February 17, 2013 12:36 pm

    Liberal Fascism …

  122. el gordo permalink
    February 17, 2013 12:37 pm

    Hitler was an opportunist.

  123. February 17, 2013 12:56 pm

    just like teabags

  124. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 1:03 pm

    guffaw @ the one who couldn’t resist.

    Perhaps, u might ‘read outside of Glenn Beck’s book club & learn’ perspective.

  125. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 1:15 pm

    GUFFAW!…at the Heritage Foundation.

    “The Heritage Foundation is an American conservative think tank based in Washington, D.C. Heritage’s stated mission is to “formulate and promote conservative public policies…”

    A rightwing Thinktank.

    How surprisement. 🙄

    Not much of a vested interest in smearing the left & covering the tracks of the right there, eh?!

  126. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 1:22 pm

    You guys should stick to tarring all of ‘leftism’ with Stalinist attrocities.

    You have a much more credible handbag full of hyperbole to work with there.

  127. Truly Evil Walrus @ Palm Bitch permalink
    February 17, 2013 1:24 pm

    And what have you got against Pinochet?

    LOL

  128. February 17, 2013 1:40 pm

    l enjoy right-wing think tanks,
    somebody always comes along and siphons all the think out of it

  129. el gordo permalink
    February 17, 2013 1:40 pm

    ‘We are socialists because we see in socialism, that is the union of all citizens, the only chance to maintain our racial inheritance and to regain our political freedom and renew our German state.

    ‘Socialism is the doctrine of liberation for the working class. It promotes the rise of the fourth class and its incorporation in the political organism of our Fatherland, and is inextricably bound to breaking the present slavery and regaining German freedom. Socialism, therefore, is not merely a matter of the oppressed class, but a matter for everyone, for freeing the German people from slavery is the goal of contemporary policy. Socialism gains its true form only through a total fighting brotherhood with the forward-striving energies of a newly awakened nationalism. Without nationalism it is nothing, a phantom, a mere theory, a castle in the sky, a book. With it it is everything, the future, freedom, the fatherland!

    ‘The sin of liberal thinking was to overlook socialism’s nation-building strengths, thereby allowing its energies to go in anti-national directions. The sin of Marxism was to degrade socialism into a question of wages and the stomach, putting it in conflict with the state and its national existence. An understanding of both these facts leads us to a new sense of socialism, which sees its nature as nationalistic, state-building, liberating and constructive.

    ‘The bourgeois is about to leave the historical stage. In its place will come the class of productive workers, the working class, that has been up until today oppressed. It is beginning to fulfill its political mission. It is involved in a hard and bitter struggle for political power as it seeks to become part of the national organism. The battle began in the economic realm; it will finish in the political. It is not merely a matter of wages, not only a matter of the number of hours worked in a day — though we may never forget that these are an essential, perhaps even the most significant part of the socialist platform — but it is much more a matter of incorporating a powerful and responsible class in the state, perhaps even to make it the dominant force in the future politics of the fatherland. The bourgeoisie does not want to recognize the strength of the working class. Marxism has forced it into a straitjacket that will ruin it. While the working class gradually disintegrates in the Marxist front, bleeding itself dry, the bourgeoisie and Marxism have agreed on the general lines of capitalism, and see their task now to protect and defend it in various ways, often concealed.

    ‘We are socialists because we see the social question as a matter of necessity and justice for the very existence of a state for our people, not a question of cheap pity or insulting sentimentality. The worker has a claim to a living standard that corresponds to what he produces. We have no intention of begging for that right. Incorporating him in the state organism is not only a critical matter for him, but for the whole nation. The question is larger than the eight-hour day. It is a matter of forming a new state consciousness that includes every productive citizen. Since the political powers of the day are neither willing nor able to create such a situation, socialism must be fought for. It is a fighting slogan both inwardly and outwardly. It is aimed domestically at the bourgeois parties and Marxism at the same time, because both are sworn enemies of the coming workers’ state. It is directed abroad at all powers that threaten our national existence and thereby the possibility of the coming socialist national state.’

    Joseph Goebbels (from a popular 1929 pamphlet)

  130. February 17, 2013 1:42 pm

    ” more credible handbag full of hyperbole “
    since when do teabags do `credible`.?

  131. February 17, 2013 1:53 pm

    They are teabags because they see in teabagism, that is the union of the corporations, the only chance to maintain their total incompetence and to refrain others from economical freedom and Love our teabag state.

  132. February 17, 2013 1:58 pm

    Teabagism is the doctrine of serfdom for the working class. It promotes the rise of the rich class and its corporations in the political organism of Teabagland, and is inextricably bound to breaking the present wages and retaining pollution freedom.

  133. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 2:09 pm

    Now go forward & dig up all of Goebbels’ post 1929 output, el gordo.

    I’m sure you’re aware that he was a propagandist of renown. Did your selection of a convenient slab sound much like propaganda? hmmmm.

    The Nazis manipulated public sentiment in many ways. The germs of which were negative public sentiment to the Versailles Treaty. Hitler demonstrated that he was willing to say & do almost anything to eventually gain ultimate power.
    They did a lot of crapping on about all kinds of things which were abandoned & ignored when they became unexpeditious in achieving Hitler’s overarching aims.
    The Nazis were in bed with corporate Germany & only told the working population what they thought they wanted to hear.
    The German command economy was almost entirely geared towards accelarated, post WW1 rearmament; once Hitler got control.

    There is plenty of literature available to give you a detailed picture of why Nazi Germany was anything but a socialist paradise.

    All you have to do is try reading unDelingpoled analysis. Try historians…rather than polemic disseminators.

  134. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 2:12 pm

    I think maybe the rightards confuse ‘socialism’ with ugly ‘social darwinism’, when it comes to the Nazis.

  135. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 2:12 pm

    Fancy, a Socialist cozying up to El Duce. 🙄

  136. Look and learn permalink
    February 17, 2013 2:13 pm

    The Nazi Party Platform

    http://users.stlcc.edu/rkalfus/PDFs/026.pdf

    13. We demand the nationalization of all enterprises (already) converted into corporations (trusts).

    14. We demand profit-sharing in large enterprises.

    15. We demand the large-scale development of old-age pension schemes.

    16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle class; the immediate communalization of the large department stores, which are to be leased at low rates to small tradesmen. We demand the most careful consideration for the owners of small businesses in orders placed by national, state, or community authorities.

    17. We demand land reform in accordance with our national needs and a law for expropriation without compensation of land for public purposes. Abolition of ground rent and prevention of all speculation in land.

  137. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 2:18 pm

    “And what have you got against Pinochet?”

    Only that he was a murderous dictator, installed by Uncle Sam.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinochet_regime#Human_rights_violations

    Something which doesn’t trouble those who piss their knickers about communist boogeymen.

  138. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 2:27 pm

    I suppose you’re suggesting that that ‘platform’ wasn’t conceived out of populism in its infancy? and that it was strictly applied to corporate Germany & Junkers (who Hitler was far too shrewd to actually spurn, given that he relied upon big money to get where he wanted to go) in all circumstances?
    You may also think that I’ve never heard of it before?

    Perhaps you think that inserting words in a title also makes North Korea democratic?

    Totalitarianism isn’t ‘leftism’.

  139. Look and learn permalink
    February 17, 2013 2:40 pm

    I’m suggesting the socialist roots of Naziism are supported by the contemporary evidence. Where the party ended up under Hitler is another thing.

  140. February 17, 2013 3:27 pm

    teabagism like nazi-ism is only good for those at the top, and it will end up where it should under Mr-Rabbit

  141. February 17, 2013 3:31 pm

    ” Totalitarianism isn’t ‘leftism’. ““
    more akin to fascism and teabags really,
    and so-called democracy`s that continually offer a non-choice to its voters, isn`t a real democracy either

  142. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 3:31 pm

    Fair enough Tony Look and learn (nice passive condescension, btw).

    I still contend that this statement, presumably from Delingpole, posted by el gordo, is bullshit…

    “Hitler was a socialist. It’s an indisputable fact.”

    …it is absolutely disputable. Hitler was no socialist . I wouldn’t consider the Nazis to be socialist in much, other than name, either. He usurped the Party by force of personality & shrewd political acumen. His real motivations were, for the most part, laid out in black & white in Mein Kampf. He had little knowledge of, or interest in, economics; he left that type of thing to other Nazi cranks.

    I find all of this “Hitler was a socialist” crap, often supported by Beckian cherrypicking, to be as ridiculous as selectively quoting the bible. Anyone can find some passage in isolation to buttress their confirmation bias!

    Hitler was very talented at appealing to the masses & generating the type of narratives which resonated with post WW1 german citizens. Allusions to socialism were just that. He made sundry alliances of convenience & was quite happy to break them after they were no longer useful to him.

    Apart from the very early years of National Socialism, Hitler essentially was the Party. This is also supported by the contemporary evidence.

  143. February 17, 2013 3:54 pm

    ““ Delingpole, posted by el gordo, is bullshit““
    as is most things he posts, more than likely a paid shill from one of those “paid-to-comment“ sites. Everything`s teabag.

  144. February 17, 2013 4:01 pm

    teabags always omit the decade before ww2 that he and his cronies spent terrorising and murdering german citizens

  145. Look and learn permalink
    February 17, 2013 4:28 pm

    ‘A rightwing Thinktank. How surprisement. ‘

    You’re not likely to hear these kinds of inconvenient truths from left wing groups. BTW, where are the scholarly articles linking the foundations of Naziism and fascism to right wing thought?

  146. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 4:46 pm

    Perhaps the timeline of the “foundations of Naziism” needs to be clarified here?

    And, where are the scholarly articles linking El Duce, Hitler’s fascist buddy of convenience, to leftwing thought? Was Benito a leftwing fascist?! 😯 …how surprisement.

    Rightwing Thinktanks, rearguard defence. They keep their base convinced; probably all they really have to do I guess. They don’t influence the uncompromised.

  147. Look and learn permalink
    February 17, 2013 4:54 pm

    There are plenty of scholarly articles linking Mussolini to left wing thought, but you can start with his non-scholarly Wiki entry, under “Political journalist and socialist”.

  148. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 4:55 pm

    I’m entirely familiar with where I’m likely to hear these kinds of ‘convenient opinions ‘ from…

    Rightwing Thinktanks and their subscribers. I think I even preempted the inevitable response from the South of that big dirty river running through Melbourne.
    All that’s left is for snacty to chime in on Pinochet & my powers of clairvoyance predictability will be vindicated. 😉

    I don’t mean any of this in a mean spirited way. 🙂

    We all have our pet issues.

  149. Look and learn permalink
    February 17, 2013 5:06 pm

    The USA may or may not have installed Pinochet (disputed), and he may or may not have been responsible for multiple human rights violations (disputed), but it is indisputable that the economic reforms instituted on the advice of his Chicago School advisers led to Chile being a shining light in South America, economically speaking, and rated eleventh in the world on a survey of economic freedom.

  150. el gordo permalink
    February 17, 2013 5:07 pm

    During the late 1920s there were running battles in the streets of Germany between the Marxists and Nazis. Often they recruited from each other, because they had similar socialist ideals, but you can see in Nazi thinking that they planned to be unique.

    As Goebbels said: ‘…the bourgeois parties and Marxism at the same time… are sworn enemies of the coming workers’ state.’

  151. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 5:09 pm

    Mussolini was a communist, Obama was a muslim, Hitler was leftwing, The Christian god created everything, Free markets are best for everyone, Pinochet was awesome & warranted…

    I think I’m starting to get it.

    Let’s pretend that how they began, or things that they said as they walked upon heads all the way to the top, defines the entirety of their historical footnotes. Quite a strategy.

  152. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 5:15 pm

    “…rated eleventh in the world on a survey of economic freedom”

    Oh well, that excuses all of the kidnapping & state terrorism then! I know that stuff is ok by you guys…as long as it’s not the scary ‘others’ doing it. 🙄

    Ah, sorry, “disputed” human rights violations. Because when rightwing dictators do it (whoops, are there any? they seem to be turning into leftwing dictators after going through Rightwing Thinktanking) it’s disputed.

    Earnest belief. It’s so cute.

  153. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 5:17 pm

    Soooo.

    Do we still accept that the statement…“Hitler was a socialist. It’s an indisputable fact.”… is valid?

    Seeing as how we’re doing the whole hairsplitting & disputing thingo.

  154. February 17, 2013 5:31 pm

    ” Rightwing Thinktanks and their subscribers. ”
    full of shills and dills, like gordo!

  155. Look and learn permalink
    February 17, 2013 5:32 pm

    It must be hard to define yourself as a leftist when all the historical evidence says leftism doesn’t work, and is responsible for the murder of hundreds of millions of innocent people. It would be nice, as a self proclaimed compassionate leftoid, to try and counter the atrocities of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot et al by labelling Hitler and Mussolini as right wing. But, unfortunately for lefties, the evidence doesn’t support that, either.

  156. el gordo permalink
    February 17, 2013 5:33 pm

    Delingpole should have left out ‘its an indisputable fact’.

  157. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 5:48 pm

    Well Tony stranger, as you well know, I don’t define myself narrowly or paint myself into a corner like that.
    As you are also long aware, you won’t see me defending Stalin, or any other murderous egomaniacal dictator. I loathe totalitarianism.

    That doesn’t mean I just lay down & go along with the Right’s rebranding & distancing.

    I’m yet to see any evidence which proves to me that Hitler or Mussolini were leftwing.

    Just as you won’t accept, I imagine, that they weren’t . I see a lot of loose points being drawn out of context, being made to fit a rightwing interpretation of how they’d like those dictators to be remembered.

    I’m willing to accept the more reasonable observation that most of them were totalitarian tyrants with little regard for their own people, let alone human life. I think, generally their ideologies took a backseat to their egomania with absolute power.
    I don’t in any way concede that the ills of the world are leftist in origin…or that rightwing thought is without blemish & attrocity as a means to an end.

  158. Look and learn permalink
    February 17, 2013 5:59 pm

    Being a stranger here 😉 I have no idea how anyone defines themselves. But my own perception of leftism is statism, collectivism, and anti-individualism. My perception of right-wing thought is individualism, minimal government intervention, and personal freedom. Just thought I’d clear that up.

  159. February 17, 2013 6:03 pm

    teabags always have side args and `useful-idiots` to distract.
    Teabags main game is to shovel as much wealth as possible to the richest.
    lf tomorrow, we give Gina and the other half-dozen mega-billionaire$ everything, `useful-idiots` need to tell us what happens the day after tomorrow.

  160. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 6:11 pm

    Yeah right. Of course. 😉

    I see the right as being obsessed with nationalist wankery & corporate inequality. They have their very own twist on statism. I don’t find most of them to be objectionable to Big Government…as long as it’s a government of their stripe; much like staunch leftists in that regard.
    I think they excuse in their own regimes what they decry in their ideological opponents. They are fine with offensive notions of Manifest Destiny & see whatever questionable acts wrought by themselves, covertly (often) or overtly (less often), as justifiable means to their ends. Again, much like leftists.
    I don’t like that they’re frequently religiously motivated & unnaturally obsessed with the bodily functions & private sexual acts of people they will never even meet.

    Personally, I’m very big on individualism. I’ve never considered myself to be herdlike or comfortable with mass conformity. I’m wary of anyone who appears to be a card carrying ideologue…of any flavour.

  161. Look and learn permalink
    February 17, 2013 6:19 pm

    “Personally, I’m very big on individualism. I’ve never considered myself to be herdlike or comfortable with mass conformity.”

    I don’t know how to break this to you, but, if you’re not into collectivism, you might need to reconsider your ostensible anti-rightism. 😯

  162. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 6:25 pm

    😯 😉

    As long as they number religious & social conservatives in their ranks, I won’t ever be joining them.

    I have a social conscience, which doesn’t necessarily extend to selfish, lazy fucks who don’t think that they should have to make some sort of productive contribution to society.

    I harbour some conservative ideals, to be sure. But they’re not the head up arse, stuffed shirt, fantasy worshipping kind. I am not big on nationalist symbolism or traditionalism.

    I think The Golden Rule is fine, if overly simplistic.

    Unfortunately, the world is full of superficial cretins who are easily lead by the nose.

    I’m not against ‘sensible’ collectivism…if such a thing exists. 😆

  163. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 6:27 pm

    Pleasure to make your reacquaintance.

  164. el gordo permalink
    February 17, 2013 6:30 pm

    Hi stranger, thought I recognised the voice.

    Don’t make yerself so scarce.

  165. Look and learn permalink
    February 17, 2013 6:40 pm

    Religious and social conservatives aren’t my idea of right-wing thinking, except to the extent that classical liberalism tolerates all of the above, and welcomes arguments from anyone, including the left. It’s a melting pot of ideas, without trying to silence anyone. That’s where the left falls down, IMO.

  166. Look and learn permalink
    February 17, 2013 6:54 pm

    Hello el gordo. As a newcomer it’s nice to feel welcomed. Your voice seems strangely familiar, too. 😉

  167. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 6:54 pm

    I can see the merit in that.

    Ideas should live or die on their merits.

    I hate the shutting down of discourse.

    I think you have a different idea of what the right is than the right has of itself.

    Admittedly, the definitions of left & right are so broad as to be almost meaningless.

    I think being aligned is folly. There are rarely absolutes…& if you nail yourself to a movement, eventually it’s going to let you down, violate its supposed principles and shit on your goodwill. Often expecting ‘followers’ to suspend their vigilance, good judgement & common sense…in the name of the cause.

    I suppose ‘ideas’ are worthy, but humans essentially can’t live up to them?

  168. el gordo permalink
    February 17, 2013 7:00 pm

    Just came across this pic which made me chuckle.

  169. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 7:01 pm

    I am hugely sceptical of all of the choices on the table in our impending Federal election.

    I doubt I’ll be able to bring myself to cast a vote.

    The two majors are so similar as to be identical…& the parties outside of them are approaching lunacy in their own ways.

    I just hope that some sort of moderation is achieved.

  170. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 17, 2013 7:03 pm

    As far as the majors go, it’s becoming more of a personality contest than an examination of what either lot will actually do if elected.

    That also makes me cynical & politically detached.

    I’ve basically switched off to it all.

  171. TB Queensland permalink
    February 17, 2013 7:34 pm

    l enjoy right-wing think tanks,
    somebody always comes along and siphons all the think out of it

    Gold! Gold Gold!

  172. TB Queensland permalink
    February 17, 2013 7:53 pm

    1. Socialism is not communism

    2. The idealogy conflicts in Germany (and later) … Nazi pogroms against Communists … demonstrate two things … they knew the difference and modern apologists don’t … both are the extremes of totalitarianism … and during the Nazi Eastern Front attack on Russia (Operation Barbarossa) and the treatment of Communist officials if caught – execution – demonstrates easily that national socialism and communism are NOT the same …

    3. While China is Communist it is devolving into a mix of political idealogy and economic rationionalism (via capitalism) … as Nazism also favoured favoured …

    4. The big difference between fascism and communism is the acceptance of other cultures … religion is still an issue for communism … in fact the main difference between fascism and communism is that one (fascism) accepts religion … where communism doesn’t …

    5. Religion is a big issue for our own (supposedly) secular society … Democracy though is not totalitarian even though some Liberal/Catholics think that way …

    G’day … LL … 😉

  173. TB Queensland permalink
    February 17, 2013 8:42 pm

    Silence is golden – or maybe dinner … chuckle® 🙂

  174. TB Queensland permalink
    February 17, 2013 8:42 pm

    Or just “bugger” … 😦

  175. TB Queensland permalink
    February 17, 2013 9:01 pm

    Here’s a bit more for, Wally’s, obviously lacking, edification …

    http://www.news.com.au/money/cost-of-living/one-in-five-aussies-struggle-to-find-1000/story-fnagkbpv-1226579779814

    Strangely news.com.au sound “surprised” … nothing has changed … the rich get richer … the poor struggle like shit!

  176. el gordo permalink
    February 17, 2013 9:02 pm

    History is fascinating.

    ‘Before 1925 the Nazis and their associates had appeared mainly on the stage of Bavarian politics. To non-Bavarians — Germans and foreigners alike — Hitler looked like a local political matador (or a clown escaped from the Munich Oktoberfest). This changed when Hitler left prison in early 1925.

    ‘Disillusioned about the chances of using Bavaria as a footstep for takeover in Berlin, he started to build up a nation-wide organization strictly loyal to him. The SA was rebuilt, too. Increasingly, it engaged in bloody street battles with the communist and republican paramilitary units.

    ‘But like the communists, the Nazis were unable to harvest the fruits of their organizational efforts before the Great Depression hit Germany. In the 1928 elections they received 12 seats (less than 3% of the vote); in 1930 their parliamentary group rose to 107, and it more than doubled in July 1932. It was now the largest group in the Reichstag. The Nazis lost some votes in December 1932 but gained power through a fatal intrigue.’

  177. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 17, 2013 10:01 pm

    Individualism is not restricted to the right, it exists in both left and right.

    Ellen Meiksins Wood. Mind and Politics: An Approach to the Meaning of Liberal and Socialist Individualism. University of California Press. 1972.

    Ch. 4. The problem of Individualism p126-146:

    http://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/891075

    …The opposition of individualism to socialism simply reflects the central importance of the question of property to – indeed, its inseparability from – the problem of individualism. It has even been suggested, by John Dewey, for example, that the principles of property and its acquisition are all that now remain of the old liberal individualism”

    “…Hence the irony of the gospel of “individualism” in business conjoined
    with suppression of individuality in thought and speech. One cannot imagine a bitterer comment on any professed individualism than that it subordinates the only creative individuality – that of the mind – to the maintenance of a regime which gives the few an opportunity for being shrewd in the management of monetary business…”

    Anyway, let’s face it, as soon as the common people start making a fuss with their protesting and civil disobedience, governments of all persuasions quickly become jackboot totalitarian.

    An example of what toiletboss cites:

    …They are fine with offensive notions of Manifest Destiny & see whatever questionable acts wrought by themselves, covertly (often) or overtly (less often), as justifiable means to their ends. Again, much like leftists…

    http://www.theglobalmail.org/feature/if-you-like-sarah-palin-youll-absolutely-love-cory-bernardi/390/

    A few thoughts of mine:

    Are company shareholders acting individually or collectively?

    What about working collectivist alternatives? As in the Netherlands [paraphrased from link below] where workers participate in appointing the board, can also veto decisions that will affect them and have their interests upheld in the court. Isn’t that a better society when workers and employer/board are not adversaries, they make decisions for the good of all stakeholders?

    http://distilledmagazine.com/individualism-is-bad-for-business/

    In the area of economic organization, individualism is bad for business. It’s time to embrace collectivist alternatives…

    Human rights, equality and equity don’t rate with libertarians and privatised industry, their definition of a civil society appears to be the state existing only to protect and subsidise private property. Nothing should protect society from their greed and exploitation.

  178. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 17, 2013 10:05 pm

    Look and learn seems nice.

  179. Truly Evil Walrus @ Palm Bitch permalink
    February 17, 2013 10:14 pm

    The Nielson poll is leaked on Twitter

    ALP is 30% primary

    An absolute fucking disaster for PM lying grub

    Love it .

  180. Truly Evil Walrus @ Palm Bitch permalink
    February 17, 2013 10:48 pm

    And that preice of low life scum that hides in the Lodge is less popular than Abbott as PM.

    She is a disaster for the ALP and will be disaster for a democracy.

    And perhaps Tony has done too good a job on her for his own job????

  181. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 17, 2013 10:58 pm

    Conservatives want to re-write history so that they are not seen in such a bad light by decent people. All those right wing think tanks and ‘friendly’ media assisting to churn out conservatist ‘revised’ history. It’s the modern right wing propaganda machine. The nazi’s did it, tony abbott does it now with the help of the IPA and all those well funded organisations that cory bernardi operates behind. Astroturfing, social media trolling, they are seriously propagandising. They’ve even taken over the ABC.

    You only have to view the principles and politics of conservatism to see how closely they align with nazi-ism.

    Hitler Is Not A Liberal Despite Conservative Attempts To Rewrite History

    …Many conservatives accuse Hitler of being a leftist, on the grounds that his party was named “National Socialist.” But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production. In Nazi Germany, private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the Nazi party and state. True socialism does not advocate such economic dictatorship — it can only be democratic. Hitler’s other political beliefs place him almost always on the far right. He advocated racism over racial tolerance, eugenics over freedom of reproduction, merit over equality, competition over cooperation, power politics and militarism over pacifism, dictatorship over democracy, capitalism over Marxism, realism over idealism, nationalism over internationalism, exclusiveness over inclusiveness, common sense over theory or science, pragmatism over principle, and even held friendly relations with the Church, even though he was an atheist…

    The Conservative Fantasy History of Civil Rights

    …They need to try something different, anyway. The pseudo-historical attempt to attach conservatism to the civil rights movement is just silly. Here’s another idea: Why not get behind the next civil rights idea (gay marriage) now? It would save future generations of conservative apparatchiks from writing tendentious essays insisting the Republican Party was always for it…

  182. February 17, 2013 11:10 pm

    “`(gay marriage) now? It would save future generations of conservative apparatchiks “`
    .
    teabags concentrate all their efforts to telling fibs of one type or another which robs them of any ability to have `vision` or any other value/talent and keeps them looking stupid/empty

  183. Ol' Sancty permalink
    February 17, 2013 11:33 pm

    But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production.

    Bull…….shit!!!!

  184. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 18, 2013 2:19 am

    Well, I’ll be… 😯

  185. TB Queensland permalink
    February 18, 2013 11:04 am

    I see, James, is as verbose and knowledgable as ever … 😯

  186. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 18, 2013 1:51 pm

    Bull…….shit!!!!

    hehe
    smoked him out!
    Now we wait for the well thought out reasoning – I know you’re busy james!

    BTW, you failed to read further than that sentence and omitted another important sentence.

    …But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production. In Nazi Germany, private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the Nazi party and state. True socialism does not advocate such economic dictatorship — it can only be democratic…

    We already know that true socialism has never existed anywhere in the world, don’t we?

    http://www.deleonism.org/text/nu931201.htm

  187. Ol' Sancty permalink
    February 18, 2013 3:00 pm

    Because socialism in the advocated sense is entirely different from the Socialism described above. “Worker ownership” must mean not just economic ownership but true ownership, that sense of the “operation” belonging to oneself. That can’t happen in a centralised environment. The “ownership” is too diluted to count.

    Socialism can and has worked in fact. But that Socialism is an Agrarian type Socialism. And even then there was a king or baron who would ride by from time to time collecting their taxes.

    If I were King of Australia for a day I would strip the vast majority of the taxing powers and government responsibilities from the Feds and grant it back to local governments. The more local the administration, the more responsible the elected and appointed to their more immediate constituents. They’d have to be because they’d see them in the street when they went to buy bread. Really the Feds should only be looking after defence, national infrastructure, and not much else.

    Gillard, Thomson, Howes, Shorten, Ludwig, the list is a mile long of reasons why Socialism in the centralised sense can’t work. They get away with that sht because they are too far removed from their constituency. It becomes no different, worse in fact, to the Capitalism it purports to improve upon. At least Capitalism allows for political, if not economic, freedom.Centralised Socialism can’t exist alongside freedom, and it is a waste of time without it, a disaster in fact.

    Olivia Marree was born into this Sanctimonious household on 4 Feb. My first words to her were that her virginity was a gift etc etc.

  188. February 18, 2013 3:08 pm

    “Olivia Marree was born into this Sanctimonious household on 4 Feb. My first words to her were that her virginity was a gift etc etc.

    Congratulations snacty… 🙂

  189. February 18, 2013 3:09 pm

    I hope you also showed her where the ironing board and the washing line is..

  190. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 18, 2013 3:35 pm

    The correct analysis is not left/right, but along the continuum between anarchy and totalitarianism. There is a fairly broad area where the conditions from democracy exist to some degree. These are free speech, rule of law and representative government.

    I have a vague idea what “leftist” means – a sort of collectivist view of matters, forever trying to distribute wealth with little clue about how to create it. “Rightist” seems to have more to do with creating circumstances in which the market can operate to generate wealth and improve the lot of humankind. I don’t really understand what else it means, other than as term of abuse hurled by leftists.

    Australian voters seem to understand this – they elect the Libs to sort the economy, and then when that is in shape they elect Labor to share the wealth a bit. When Labor has racked up enough debt, they bring back the Libs to sort the economy again. Really stupid Labor governments like the current mob and Whitlam screw the economy quickly. They only last a couple of terms. The reason the Hawke/Keating era lasted so long was that, at least during the Hawke years the economy was well managed. But eventually the inevitable happened.

  191. February 18, 2013 3:59 pm

    “they elect the Libs to sort the economy, and then when that is in shape they elect Labor to share the wealth a bit. When Labor has racked up enough debt, they bring back the Libs to sort the economy again.”

    Oddly enough I was thinking that exact same thing earlier today….

  192. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 18, 2013 5:44 pm

    Splatter makes a lot of sense.

  193. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 18, 2013 5:45 pm

    “If I were King of Australia for a day I would strip the vast majority of the taxing powers and government responsibilities from the Feds and grant it back to local governments.”

    Snacty for King errr, President ! (?)

    * Congrats to the breeders. 🙂

  194. el gordo permalink
    February 18, 2013 6:10 pm

    Sancty’s idea has merit, revolutionary and progressive, but it won’t be adopted any time soon.

  195. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 18, 2013 6:19 pm

    The “ownership” is too diluted to count.

    I can’t see that, the ownership wouldn’t be as diluted as the shareholders in a corporation.

    The ‘ownership’ is equal, nobody having more than any other so how can equality mean diluted?

    If I were King of Australia for a day I would strip the vast majority of the taxing powers and government responsibilities from the Feds and grant it back to local governments. The more local the administration, the more responsible the elected and appointed to their more immediate constituents.

    You’ve just described my idea of what a working ‘true’ communist system could be like.

    I want to see the people rule themselves via democratically elected localities or ‘councils’ [whatever people want to call them] from their own community, it would be a decentralised and worker owned society, everyone has equal value, equal input into decisions made and it would be a stateless society, no government.

    Socialism is not communism and communism is a political, not an economic system. Many get confused probably because of the modern ‘politics of fear’ where any type of socialism is described as communism. Where progressives are smeared as commies [2td/walrus style].

    Russia, China and other countries labelled as ‘communist’ have never had true communism, the workers have never had control of the means of production.

    Capitalism is very much the centralised economic system, the economic rationalists decreeing that it is cheaper and more efficient to have a centralised command or head office, with its own upper class level of managers/CEOs/boards that are hugely overpaid and underworked.

    How can people fool themselves into thinking that being ‘wage slaves’ for the super wealthy ‘owner class’ gives them some kind of personal freedom? They have the freedom of slavery, bought and sold by the wealthy who use their labour to further enrich themselves. Everybody competing against each other for the scraps thrown by the wealthy owner class who in turn own and control supposedly ‘democratic’ governments.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism#Marxist_Communism

    [wiki] “Pure communism” is a term sometimes used to refer to the stage in history after socialism, although just as many communists use simply the term “communism” to refer to that stage; the term is synonymous with “Full communism”. The classless, stateless society that is meant to characterise this communism is one where decisions on what to produce and what policies to pursue are made in the best interests of the whole of society—a sort of ‘of, by, and for the working class’, rather than a rich class controlling the wealth and everyone else working for them on a wage basis. In this communism the interests of every member of society is given equal weight to the next, in the practical decision-making process in both the political and economic spheres of life…

  196. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 18, 2013 6:19 pm

    No, it won’t. I agree.

    In a duopoly the status quo, or thereabouts, is entrenched & almost impossible to dislodge.

  197. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 18, 2013 6:22 pm

    “The “ownership” is too diluted to count.

    I can’t see that, the ownership wouldn’t be as diluted as the shareholders in a corporation.”

    I thought the same when I read that. It is more of a vibe felt by snacty than a statement of fact.

  198. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 18, 2013 6:28 pm

    “Rightist” seems to have more to do with creating circumstances in which the market can operate to generate wealth and improve the lot of humankind.

    Considering the state of the world today, the mess of the planet/environment which has been exploited to death. Humankind living in permanent refugee camps, or in poverty and sickness, the ‘rightists’ don’t appear to be doing too well. The capital tied up in the hands of a few wealthy parasites [who only generate wealth amongst themselves] off the backs of others who don’t get to share in the profits of their own labour could easily alleviate the suffering of humankind right now.

  199. February 18, 2013 6:43 pm

    “Australian voters seem to understand this – they elect the Libs to sort the economy, and then when that is in shape they elect Labor to share the wealth a bit. When Labor has racked up enough debt, they bring back the Libs to sort the economy again.”

    That theory has been around since my Pol Sci days in ’70s and has legs because of the political cycle. More to the point is ownership of the middle ground…Keating was referred to as the best Liberal PM since Menzies a case in point. Problem for todays incumbent is that the middle ground shifted from under her feet quite quickly…

  200. toiletdelingpolemicistofrightardmemes permalink
    February 18, 2013 6:48 pm

    The ALP could have been too cute by half.

    They’ve stupidly shat upon progressives & conservatives in equal measure, at times.

    Not a winning strategy!

  201. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 18, 2013 7:02 pm

    Considering the state of the world today, the mess of the planet/environment which has been exploited to death. Humankind living in permanent refugee camps, or in poverty and sickness, the ‘rightists’ humans don’t appear to be doing too well.

    Leftists are forever stuck a zero/sum rut. If you gave them all of the “capital” in the world, there would be none left a short while later.

    Even the Chinese commos got the message. They introduced some market economy principles and about 300 million people were lifted out of abject poverty. No amount of leftism will ever achieve anything like that. What the leftists did achieve in China when they confiscated the capital from the “wealthy parasites” was poverty misery and death for millions.

    And don’t lecture me on the bad bits about China or the distance they have yet to go. That is not my point. If you wan’t to really smack me down, show me a collectivist system that has generated great wealth. Show me a lefty economic system that has generated anything like the wealth that market economies generate. Leftists have a place in advocating for the moderation of the harsher effects of market economies, but they need to learn that they can only do this to the extent that they don’t destroy the ability of an economy to generate wealth in the first place. Essentially leftists are parasites precisely because they don’t have a clue how to actually generate the wealth they would so wantonly redistribute.

    And so we have in Australia a balance between generating wealth and redistributing it. Lately the spenders have blown the budget and, with little to show for it, given us enough debt to take a generation to pay off. It is time to bring in the clean-up crew. The trouble is that they are so dumb and so unprincipled they probably don’t even understand that that is their job.

  202. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 18, 2013 7:14 pm

    Problem for todays incumbent is that the middle ground shifted from under her feet quite quickly…

    Because of the ‘middle class welfare’ voter bribes handed out by the previous liberal government when they squandered the nations ‘once in a lifetime’ revenue. The middle ground have got used to their indulgent taxpayer funded lifestyle and refuse to exist without it.

  203. el gordo permalink
    February 18, 2013 7:17 pm

    ‘They introduced some market economy principles and about 300 million people were lifted out of abject poverty.’

    Its been the greatest economic revolution in history.

  204. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 18, 2013 7:30 pm

    ”Problem for todays incumbent is that the middle ground shifted from under her feet quite quickly…

    I don’t think it is as simple of this. The electorate has a sensitive bulls**t meter, they don’t accept (perceived) dishonesty. That’s why Howard got the bullet, and Gillard is gone for the same reason.

    She was lucky to survive the last election, so her lack of popularity isn’t really part of a cycle.

  205. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 18, 2013 7:31 pm

    Essentially leftists are parasites precisely because they don’t have a clue how to actually generate the wealth they would so wantonly redistribute

    Course they do, who do you think is producing the wealth now? Whose labour is driving the productivity and profits that the wealthy capitalists steal for themselves?

    They have more than a clue, they just don’t have the power to get rid of the current system, as soon as it looks like workers will gain power and will organise in their own interests, the wealthy capitalists demand the governments they control to ‘do something’ to oppress and suppress any uprising of the worker class.

    Think about it how unfair is a system that makes it illegal for any worker of free will to withold their own labour if they choose? What ‘fair’ system makes it illegal for people to protest in the streets [unless under their ‘special’ rules of oppression] and utilises state forces in armed force against its own citizens?

  206. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 18, 2013 7:50 pm

    Lately the spenders have blown the budget and, with little to show for it, given us enough debt to take a generation to pay off. It is time to bring in the clean-up crew.

    That generation will be busy won’t they? Also having to pay the clean up bill for the environmental debt left to them by those who claim to save 300 million humans. The ‘saving of souls’ blatherings of the utterly selfish greedy class, produces the same irreparable madness and remedy that will kill another 300 million plus plants, species and more.

  207. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 18, 2013 7:51 pm

    You are not making any sense at all, Armie. Perhaps to help me understand you could give an example of where this wonderful system you speak of has succeeded.

  208. TB Queensland permalink
    February 18, 2013 8:42 pm

    Olivia Marree was born into this Sanctimonious household on 4 Feb. My first words to her were that her virginity was a gift etc etc.

    Virginity! When my daughter was born I just told her how much I loved her …

    Congratulations … to you and your extremely tolerant wife (I suspect she is wonderful person!) ! You bloody neanderthal! 🙂

    … I’ve enjoyed (I know womenn don’t, KL!) the birth of two children and five grandchildren … precious all …

    … my eldest, 21, just bought his first car … strangely a “magic” moment his uncle (my son) who helped in the purchase and for me (who did some of the “looking” with my g/son) …

    BTW, its Marie, joke Joyce …

  209. TB Queensland permalink
    February 18, 2013 8:47 pm

    If I were King of Australia for a day ,,,

    Says it all … we live in 2013!

  210. TB Queensland permalink
    February 18, 2013 9:02 pm

    … they elect the Libs to sort the economy, and then when that is in shape they elect Labor to share the wealth a bit. When Labor has racked up enough debt, they bring back the Libs to sort the economy again.”

    The cycle is OK but the modus operandi is incorrect …

    Sure, the LibNits accumulate capital … because they sit on it and let things happen … that’s fine if you have everything you need and most Liberal voters do, so they get that … Australia must be the richest its ever been – weel in my lifetime anyway …

    What people have forgotten is that the country’s infrastructure had degenerated … we didn’t have airports to get tourists in … we didn’t have seaports to get goods out … we don’t have systems or facilities to educate our children properly … or medical health facilities to help the sick, aged, disabled …

    We continue a war begun by the Liberal Party …

    We were engulfed by a “financial tsunami” (Tip Custard) …

    Liberals don’t make life better … they line the pockets of their friends always have … always will … look at history … they declare war but never know how to run them or finish them … they burble big plans but never bring them about … Liberals are the party for the rich and ambitious the corporate Robber Barons and the churches that control them …

    The ALP at least takes the ideas and burble and makes an effort to move the nation forward with advances in health, education, infrastructure, disability and aged care and pulls us back from war … it costs money …

    Once the nation has things in place people vote against the “pain” of reform and the Liberals benefit from the kudos …

    ALL POLITICIANS ARE ARESHOLES >>> its what they actually achieve that you should consider …

    not the HYPERBOLE …

  211. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 18, 2013 9:03 pm

    Nice work James.

  212. TB Queensland permalink
    February 18, 2013 9:06 pm

    “If I were King of Australia for a day I would strip the vast majority of the taxing powers and government responsibilities from the Feds and grant it back to local governments.”

    More ignorance … the GST goes back to the states … NOW ….

    I prefer to live in a country not in manors …

    Get rid of the states … not the federal governments powers …

    True kings unite countries not divulge power … read more history!

  213. TB Queensland permalink
    February 18, 2013 9:24 pm

    Socialism can and has worked in fact. But that Socialism is an Agrarian type Socialism.

    Mein Kampf writ large … and wrong … in fact in Germany the company Boards (ie PRODUCTION) consist of workers and management and have since the 1950’s … guess which country is one of the richest in the world … 🙄

    BTW … who in the 21st Century give a flying fuck about socialism …

  214. TB Queensland permalink
    February 18, 2013 9:37 pm

    If you wan’t to really smack me down, show me a collectivist system that has generated great wealth

    Australia …

    Its only because we work together that we are strong as a people and as a nation!

    Its the divisive nonsense that people like you write that destroys it! For sheer control and power …

    … do you really believe that communism and socilaism have a role in today’s Australia?

    … the argument is hollow and false … the political power greedily sought by people like you is for for the corporates and the church who will do what they have done for centuries … rape, pillage and control!

    Ignorance of the past will always enable the right wing to wheedle its way into control until the next generation discovers the lying, the cheating and the deceit … and especially the cronyism …

    http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=3&gs_ri=psy-ab&pq=cronyism%20&cp=5&gs_id=4s&xhr=t&q=Ros%20bates&es_nrs=true&pf=p&newwindow=1&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&oq=Ros+b&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42553238,d.dGY&fp=f20225758ee0a358&biw=1582&bih=917

  215. TB Queensland permalink
    February 18, 2013 9:39 pm

    Perhaps to help me understand you could give an example of where this wonderful system you speak of has succeeded.

    You probably think workplace H&S programs are silly too …

  216. TB Queensland permalink
    February 18, 2013 9:44 pm

    They introduced some market economy principles and about 300 million people were lifted out of abject poverty.’

    Someone else confusing econonomy with idealogy again … 🙄

    BTW the majority of companies in The People’s Republic of China are still state owned …

    … and BTW, China already owns the USA … frightening stuff … hey?

    Oh, and BTW, China don’t like Catlicks much either … 😯

  217. TB Queensland permalink
    February 18, 2013 9:45 pm

    Nice work James.

    Don’t show yer fkn ignorance, ToM …

  218. February 18, 2013 9:47 pm

    “you are not making any sense at all, Armie. Perhaps to help me understand you could give an example of where this wonderful system you speak of has succeeded..”

    I agree…

    “they just don’t have the power to get rid of the current system, as soon as it looks like workers will gain power and will organise in their own interests, the wealthy capitalists demand the governments they control to ‘do something’ to oppress and suppress any uprising of the worker class.”

    Sounds like paranoia to me…

  219. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 18, 2013 10:22 pm

    BTW … who in the 21st Century give a flying fuck about socialism …

    That’s it TB. I just want change and a fairer, more inclusive society. I get tired of the ‘commie’ accusations every time we talk about making a different and better system. As soon as we talked of climate change and carbon pricing, the powerful wealthy all started screaming and ranting hysterically about ‘communism’ and ‘income redistribution’ rather than something we should be doing as harm minimisation for the planet upon which all humans depend for survival. The secret organisations lying and propagandising about the science because profits must come before people. The old wealthy white men in control of the world want it all shut down, it’s become another ‘the commies are coming’ moment.

    Just tonight I’ve seen geert wilders on the telly spruiking his hatred of islam as if we’re all going to be taken over by ordinary muslims. Why isn’t someone on prime time telly spruiking to get rid of all organised religion? It is religion that is the problem, not just one of their branches. I can’t believe we fund the hate and divide that is religion.

    What was taxpayer funding for banks after the GFC, if it wasn’t wealth redistribution from the bottom up? It seems that is acceptable anytime [its capitalism in a nutshell isn’t it], just don’t ask for any from the top down!

    I think the whole left vs right thing is irrelevant too.

  220. Truly Evil Walrus @ Palm Bitch permalink
    February 18, 2013 10:34 pm

    Good to see our idiot prime minister giving a speech today.

    Just in case we’d forgotten about her past links it was at the AWU Conference.

    What a f@@king moron she is if she can’t see a political problem with that.

  221. TB Queensland permalink
    February 18, 2013 10:36 pm

    The ignorance is really wearying, KL … ’cause the desciples only regurgitate the nosnsense they are told without any real knowledge or understanding … no individual thought … if there is any then its couched language based upon divine right rather than human rights … old fashioned, ignorant and deep south of the USofA insular thinking …

    The irony is that the cattle fodder and factory fodder are beginning to believe the BS …

    Maybe 1984 will be 2014 … or … Metropolis …

  222. Ol' Sancty permalink
    February 18, 2013 10:51 pm

    “The “ownership” is too diluted to count.

    I can’t see that, the ownership wouldn’t be as diluted as the shareholders in a corporation.”

    I thought the same when I read that. It is more of a vibe felt by snacty than a statement of fact.

    Certainly a vibe post, but that sentence must be read in the context of the whole post. If you read the whole thing you’ll see that I detest centralised economic/political systems be they Capitalist or Socialist. But at least Capitalism allows me political freedom.

    The priority should be social health. And social health is best delivered at a local level. Authorities have to answer to people they know. Service providers the same.Kids won’t get into so much trouble with the cops because the cop’ll tell Dad who will kick your arse. Because Dad knows the cop. Or knows someone who does. The doctor knows you. You aren’t some number on a widespread computer program.

    The fact of it is that most of us are pretty decent people who would manage quite comfortably under either system or variations thereof. But unfortunately there’s a fairly significant minority of cunts and pricks out there who will exploit whatever system is in place. Now in a Capitalist system the cunts are motivated solely by money and when the free democratic types call them out on their cuntness, they’ll either resist or work in (whichever best suits the bottom line). In the other they’ll make laws that say it’s not very nice to call people cunts and pricks and in extreme cases they’ll shoot you.

    Either way, we get screwed, but in only one of them do we keep our breath if we object.

    We’re pretty well stuck with an ever centralising of politics and economics unfortunately.

  223. Ol' Sancty permalink
    February 18, 2013 11:00 pm

    Just tonight I’ve seen geert wilders on the telly spruiking his hatred of islam as if we’re all going to be taken over by ordinary muslims. Why isn’t someone on prime time telly spruiking to get rid of all organised religion?

    They usually are. In fact, going by my Twitter feed, the Micks are getting it again tonight. It just happens so often that it’s not news. What makes Wilders newsworthy is that he has the stones to stick it to the Mussies, and for that he has to walk around with a small army.

    You know it’s funny, moving from North Melbourne out to the burbs. The local mall here is chock full of crooks. Yet these type of crooks don’t frighten me anything like the crooks did in North Melbourne. Really they’re quite polite.

  224. el gordo permalink
    February 19, 2013 5:57 am

    And congrats James on the new ankle bighter

  225. el gordo permalink
    February 19, 2013 6:28 am

    ITS ON AGAIN!

    ‘Mr Rudd said at the weekend that talk of another challenge should be put in “cryogenic storage”.

    ‘But it was a term his backers yesterday claimed was a subtle message that he could be unfrozen and resurrected.

    ‘They declared a challenge was now a “fait accompli”, following poll numbers that rivalled the catastrophic wipe-out of NSW Labor in 2011.

    “The timing will now take care of itself. People will be begging us to do something,” one key Rudd backer said.’

    Daily Terror

  226. el gordo permalink
    February 19, 2013 6:33 am

    ‘Most senior ministers contacted on Monday appeared to be sticking with the Prime Minister but many said the numbers in the poll could not be ignored.

    ”It’s simple arithmetic,” said one. ”We can’t go to an election with these numbers.”

    ‘Asked if the situation would come to a head when Parliament resumed, one minister responded: ”I don’t see how it can’t”.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/beware-knives-of-march-20130218-2enj0.html#ixzz2LHTGt9p3

  227. el gordo permalink
    February 19, 2013 7:04 am

    ‘Modern Labor seems to have lost touch with the mainstream and fallen under the spell of the inner-city green Left. Young ALP staffers are aligned more with the ideology of the Greens than Labor, and tend to sneer at the suburban lifestyle and material aspirations of traditional Labor voters.’

    Oz editorial…

    tru dat

  228. February 19, 2013 8:17 am

    “I think the whole left vs right thing is irrelevant too.”

    Now that sound just like one of my 9/11 denying mates. Let’s have a peoples bank and not charge any interest!?

  229. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 19, 2013 10:07 am

    “Just tonight I’ve seen geert wilders on the telly spruiking his hatred of islam as if we’re all going to be taken over by ordinary muslims.”

    If you actually take the time to listen to him his central message is that Islam is not just a religion but also a form of government and justice and an economic/financial (Islamic finance anyone) system as well.

    He does not hate all muslims all he is trying to point out is that Islam is so all encompassing of a society that many parts of it are totally and utterly at odds with Western Democracies be they at the moment Right Wing or Left Wing democracies.

    The problem as he ses it in Holland is that there are currently those muslims who just want to attach themselves to the religious armand pray and go to the mosque but there are many who are on a crusade to convert Holland to all encompassing Islam.

    Catholicism used to be the same. Islam being a much younger brand of religion just like a teenager hasn’t gotten over itself yet.

  230. TB Queensland permalink
    February 19, 2013 10:15 am

    Let’s have a peoples bank and not charge any interest!?

    Let’s have COMMERCIAL banks that survive and fall on their business management … not on the handout’s of the peoples’ money when shonky schemes and “used car” tactics go belly up …

    Let’s have a people’s bank WITH low interest but lower or no charges for doing nothing …

  231. TB Queensland permalink
    February 19, 2013 10:17 am

    If you actually take the time to listen to him his central message is that Islam is not just a religion but also a form of government and justice and an economic/financial (Islamic finance anyone) system as well.

    You sound as if you didn’t know that? 😯

  232. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 19, 2013 10:25 am

    “I just want change and a fairer, more inclusive society.”

    What kind of change? And who decides what is fair, and who gets included? Does inclusive mean that we all have equal rights or is it just an endless identification of designated victim classes that get special entitlements?

    “As soon as we talked of climate change and carbon pricing, the powerful wealthy all started screaming and ranting hysterically about ‘communism’ and ‘income redistribution’ rather than something we should be doing as harm minimisation for the planet upon which all humans depend for survival.”

    The carbon tax itself is a real piece of work. It cannot possibly achieve its stated aim. It will not lower temperatures by any amount at all. Of course those untroubled by logic or those with different agendas see it as a wonderful thing. And the rich and powerful are the ones trying to bumrush the planet into pissing trillions of dollars against the wall for no good outcome whatsoever. In case you didn’t notice temperatures haven’t risen for the last decade or so! But still Fat Albert Gore gets richer and fatter. Vacuous celebrities lecture us on the need to curb our lifestyles as they jet about the planet. Academic careers are made, funding is diverted and Flannery does very nicely thank you very much. Or I suppose you could have it your way – the rich and the powerful like me and gordo are trying to hijack the whole process. Dream on deluded one, or maybe just try thinking for a change.

    “The old wealthy white men in control of the world”

    Hysterically funny that! Not to mention sexist, ageist and racist. Just hanging on to reality by your fingertips, eh?

    “What was taxpayer funding for banks after the GFC, if it wasn’t wealth redistribution from the bottom up?”

    You do realise that in Australia the taxpayer didn’t fund our banks, but rather made a nice profit from them by selling compulsory deposit insurance to them, right?

  233. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 19, 2013 10:27 am

    “You sound as if you didn’t know that?”

    You should direct that comment to AO

  234. el gordo permalink
    February 19, 2013 10:33 am

    ‘The carbon tax itself is a real piece of work. It cannot possibly achieve its stated aim. It will not lower temperatures by any amount at all.’

    Yes, but its the thought that counts.

  235. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 19, 2013 10:39 am

    I wanted to see Wilders in Sydney but he was sold out. He deserves support because of the threats he attracts from the religious fanatics who are trying to kill him. It is utterly outrageous that he needs to live his life under armed guard. The attacks on him from the usual suspects are utterly contemptible.

    It is hardly surprising that Minister Bowen made it difficult for him to gain entry into the country. Australia is paying a heavy price for the ALPs efforts to court the muslim vote, going back at least to the time when Keating let Dogmeat Hilalli into the country. Suffice to say it was much easier for the fascist Hizb ut-Tahrir to get a speaker into the country than for this popular Dutch politician to gain entry.

  236. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 19, 2013 10:42 am

    Gordo, you rich and powerful beast, you are at it again! Be careful or the thought police will be at your door.

  237. el gordo permalink
    February 19, 2013 11:10 am

    Winston believed Julia was affiliated with the Thought Police.

  238. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 19, 2013 2:13 pm

    I wanted to see Wilders in Sydney but he was sold out. He deserves support because of the threats he attracts from the religious fanatics who are trying to kill him. It is utterly outrageous that he needs to live his life under armed guard.

    He knows exactly what he is saying, why should people who throw stones expect others to just accept it? He stirs up peaceful, law abiding muslims as much as the extremists because he smears them all. He deserves everything he gets, I hope he pays for his protection from his own pocket. I suppose his demented religious warrior ‘followers’ happily chip in for his protection, perhaps cory bernardi has a houseguest, it’ll get pretty crowded under that rock.

    The rest of us couldn’t care less about religious turf shitfights or any of the backward thinking from both sides, I wish they could all wipe each other out and we be rid of the lot of them. Unfortunately they take us with them as collateral damage. How nice it would be if the world could be rid of all religion, peace at last.

    You do realise that in Australia the taxpayer didn’t fund our banks, but rather made a nice profit from them by selling compulsory deposit insurance to them, right?

    I thought the taxpayer did fund and own the CBA, but of course, anything that has been built to serve us well, must be sold off for private profit.

    The carbon tax itself is a real piece of work. It cannot possibly achieve its stated aim. It will not lower temperatures by any amount at all.

    It will do more than abbott’s green army ever will! The mantra has always been that when you want to stop people from doing something undesirable, you should increase the cost eg cigarettes, it’s supposed to be a deterrent. But in the minds of the wealthy and their snot nose grovellers, they must receive a financial reward to stop polluting the earth. Once more one rule for the rich and another for the poor, the rich get carrots and the poor get a stick. I actually agree with you, I don’t want any market mechanism, I prefer a straight out tax on polluters, no compensation and remove all subsidies.

    “…He does not hate all muslims all he is trying to point out is that Islam is so all encompassing of a society that many parts of it are totally and utterly at odds with Western Democracies be they at the moment Right Wing or Left Wing democracies…”

    “…The problem as he ses it in Holland is that there are currently those muslims who just want to attach themselves to the religious armand pray and go to the mosque but there are many who are on a crusade to convert Holland to all encompassing Islam…”

    And how does that differ from christianity? Embedded representatives in our government. Laws made on their behalf, to appease, against the wishes of the majority of the voting public? Subsidisation of religion forced from an unwilling taxpayer? The poor and needy forced to beg from religious charities for assistance that they should receive from a secular government service provider.

  239. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 19, 2013 3:38 pm

    “He knows exactly what he is saying”

    Yes he seems quite logical.

    “why should people who throw stones expect others to just accept it”

    Er, he is not the one throwing stones. He is more of the “sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me” school. It is his demented opponents, driven by their vile and primitive religious beliefs, who want, not only to throw stones at him, but to kill him. There are too many idiot leftists willing to join in with the religious fanatics to shut up people like Wilders. Sadly it is no longer unusual to see leftists willing to sell free speech down the river. They are the true enemies of human decency.

    “He stirs up peaceful, law abiding muslims as much as the extremists because he smears them all.”

    Where did you dredge that lie up from? Been watching the ABC again?

    First, people are responsible for their own actions. It is not Wilders’ fault if a bunch of nutters get all murderous. Do you think that muslims are somehow special, unable to control themselves, and we should accept a lesser standard of behaviour from them, expecting them to get all murderous when someone offends them.

    Second, Wilders is at great pains to distinguish his target from ordinary muslims. But I guess you haven’t thought too much about what he actually says if you bothered to give him a fair hearing at all before piling to the cause du jour.

    “I thought the taxpayer did fund and own the CBA”

    This one takes the cake doesn’t it? Your earlier comment was specifically about subsidising the banks in the GFC. When I pointed out that your comment was factually inaccurate, instead of just admitting it, you jump to this totally irrelevant historical point. This is a different but equally flawed argument. I’m not going to waste time on it because, as you’ve just demonstrated, facts and logic don’t matter to you. Even if I do point out your errors you will just pivot on to another lunatic proposition.

  240. TB Queensland permalink
    February 19, 2013 4:34 pm

    Your earlier comment was specifically about subsidising the banks in the GFC.

    A three year government guarantee …. certainly made things rosy for ’em here … and not one, not two but three taxpayer boosts inb the USA still see the country struggling … you know the epitome of CAPITALISM … the bunch of dickheads that cost ordinary folk around the world billions of dollars in savings … because they cheated the system … the same GLOBAL market system Australia waddles around in …

    Even if I do point out your errors you will just pivot on to another lunatic proposition.

    … exactly the way I (and I suspect KL) feel about your rantings … seems a little knowledge is dangerous …

    If you care to comprehend what KL, me and a couple of others here say about religion you’ll know we’re fed up of the fkn lot of ’em … religion is always about market share … telling the plebs that the other lot (your lot) is better, because their lot (Islam) is worse doesn’t wash with athiests and agnostics … we don’t care … the lot on both sides need to get a life and take responsibility for their own actions instead of saying – it was god what made me do it!

    The hypocrisy demonstrated by religionists is astoundingly stupid … you don’t love my god so you are bad …

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Speaking of hypocrisy … the number of “contradictions” in this story concerning the Leader of the Opposition is incredible …

    ABBOTT: ‘WE ALWAYS SPEAK WITH A STRONG AUSTRALIAN ACCENT’

    OPPOSITION Leader Tony Abbott today took a barely disguised swipe at a prime ministerial adviser when he attacked Julia Gillard for “imported politics”.
    Mr Abbott’s target was John McTernan, a Scotsman with a broad accent who heads the Prime Minister’s communications section and is a political adviser.

    “One thing which we never do in the Coalition is import political techniques and political personnel from other countries. We just don’t believe in imported politics,” Mr Abbott said today.

    “We believe in a strong, home-grown policy. We believe in strong local candidates. That’s what you’ll always see from the Coalition under my leadership. We will always speak with a strong Australian accent.”

    British-born Mr Abbott was perhaps forgetting about his Belgian-born shadow assistant treasurer Mathias Cormann who sounds more like Arnold Schwarzenegger than Slim Dusty.
    Senator Cormann said today all his European friends “tell me that I speak with a very strong Australian accent these days”.
    “As a migrant I look forward to being part of an Abbott Coalition government that will take a very Australian approach to Australian issues in an Australian way,” Senator Cormann told news.com.au.
    “I totally agree with Tony Abbott that we don’t want to import into Australia the negative Labo(u)r ways of conducting political and policy debates from overseas.”

    And Mr Abbott, who wants to keep the British monarch Queen of Australia, last year consulted London think tank executive Phillip Blond on savings from shrinking the bureaucracy.

    Liberal sources today confirmed Mr Abbott was aiming at Mr McTernan, a former adviser to British Prime Minister Tony Blair who has added aggression to the Government’s tactics and has become controversial within and outside the ALP in the process.

    It is unusual for party leaders to single out an individual staff member rather than that staffer’s political boss. It clashes with the Westminster system of ministerial responsibility to hold anyone other than a member of the Government executive accountable for actions.

    The Opposition Leader was responding to claims by Treasurer Wayne Swan that the Liberal Party was moving to the right and becoming an Australian version of the conservative Tea Party of the United States.

    “We must reject the callous Tea Party-inspired ideology which says ‘you’re on your own’, and instead agree that ours is a country that takes care of its own,” Mr Swan today told an Australian Workers’ Union conference.

    “Just as the Tea Party has annexed sections of the Republican Party in the United States, here in Australia we are now witnessing an alarming radicalisation of the Liberal Party.”

    Mr Abbott said he was not deeply familiar with and had not closely studied the US Tea Party.

    “What I do want to get away from though is the deeply negative politics which I think some of my opponents are trying to import from the United Kingdom and the United States,'” he said.

    “One of the great things about our country is how we try to stick together and help each other.

    And you will never find from me, and any government I lead, the kind of politics of division which I fear others seek to introduce.”

    http://www.news.com.au/national/abbott-attacks-labors-imported-politics/story-fncynjr2-1226581145008

  241. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 19, 2013 5:41 pm

    “A three year government guarantee”

    For which the banks were required to pay the government a guarantee fee. So it wasn’t the government giving money the banks, more the other way around but hey, don’t let the facts get in the way of your prejudices.

    “The hypocrisy demonstrated by religionists is astoundingly stupid”

    Are you on the bottle already? Or is it that discussion of religion reduces you to a sputtering illiterate mess? Haven’t you got anything better than the lazy swagger of cursing them all? Surely even you can tell the difference between Mother Teresa and Mohammad Atta?

  242. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 19, 2013 5:51 pm

    “………..The hypocrisy demonstrated by religionists is astoundingly stupid … you don’t love my god so you are bad … ”

    What the hell does it matter to you ?

    Not everyone says that and if they did then dont listen. Or are your feeling all fragile these days ?

    When are you and others going to realise that we live in a country where you are free to believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden if that’s your bent.

    However you dont have a right to impinge upon others rights.

    And your quote above is the debate that Gilders is saying must occur in relation to Islam.

    Why are you attacking him when you just supported him ?

    And dont bother with the carry on about private religious school funding etc as thats supported by both sides of government as having merit and why cant someone again have freedom of choice as to where there kids go.

    Otherwise just pack your bags and buy your one way ticket to Pyongyang.

    Fuck me dead you two boil over with hypocrisy.

  243. el gordo permalink
    February 19, 2013 6:26 pm

    ‘But in the minds of the wealthy and their snot nose grovellers, they must receive a financial reward to stop polluting the earth.’

    sigh …. we have a room out the back for that sort of talk.

  244. TB Queensland permalink
    February 19, 2013 7:14 pm

    However you dont have a right to impinge upon others rights.

    Nor do religions … tell my state government that, especially the ones who encourage Christian fairytales in my local state primary school …

    Fuck me dead you two boil over with hypocrisy.

    Hilarious another Christian apologist calling an agnostic a hypocrite …

    Or are your feeling all fragile these days ?

    I know who’s “fragile” and very shrill … LOL!

    And dont bother with the carry on about private religious school funding etc as thats supported by both sides of government

    Mmmmm ….now that YOU mention it why should my taxes support your fairies? (oh yes I still pay my share – pity others don’t)

    Otherwise just pack your bags and buy your one way ticket to Pyongyang.

    I can’t afford a ticket to North Korea … I’m playing on a houseboat next month! The government pension doesn’t go that far y’know!

    BTW, whatever happened to MY free speech? 😆

  245. TB Queensland permalink
    February 19, 2013 7:15 pm

    Here’s a qiestion for ya, Wally … do Muslims in Australia enjoy the same rights that you and I do ..?

  246. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 19, 2013 7:16 pm

    “Many of those protesting against Geert Wilders Australian tour, chanted ‘Racism no way, we’re going to fight it all the way.’

    They wrestled with the paying guests as they tried to access the venue, taking their tickets and pushing them to the ground.”

    Looks like the fascists are out in force. Hello leftists, goodbye free speech. Fucking brownshirt thugs.

  247. TB Queensland permalink
    February 19, 2013 7:24 pm

    Surely even you can tell the difference between Mother Teresa and Mohammad Atta?

    I’ll ignore your personal insults and splutterings before the sentence above

    … but I’ll answer your question with a your question is what has that got to do with indoctrinating primary school children with religion …

    In fact when you actually read the vitriol in your posts here and Wally’s … it indicate the sort of nasty minded people that are drawn to religions of ALL kinds … suffer the little children to come unto me … JC would have wound the cross out of the bloody ground if he could see you lot now …

    Because its that nastiness that is displayed by not only extreme Christians but extrem Islamists and extreme anything!

    (FYI, my friend who lives directly behind is a devout Catholic … my neighbour to the left is a Muslim … and they are both lovely people … I discuss religion with them both … agnosticism interests both of them)

    You two simply give Christianity a bad name …

  248. el gordo permalink
    February 19, 2013 7:33 pm

    ‘Fucking brownshirt thugs.’

    Colourful stuff Splatter, keep up the good work.

  249. TB Queensland permalink
    February 19, 2013 7:38 pm

    Looks like the fascists are out in force. Hello leftists, goodbye free speech. Fucking brownshirt thugs.

    In that one sentence you demonstrate your absolute ignorance of politics and political/military history* … and certainly a lack of education …

    Could I suggest as a starter you read this book “The Storm of War” by Andrew Roberts

    Its only about 700+ pages about Hitler’s WWII if you get hold of it now you might finish it before I do – I’m only on page 208 …

    When you’ve read it I’ll then discuss with you your understanding of “fascist”, “leftist”, “free speech” and “brownshirts” … you obviously have no idea how any of those words relate to each other …

    Just as a tidbit … I would say that the main difference between fascist and communist is that the former tolerated Christian religion … the latter does not tolerate religion at all … and whether Hitler or Stalin was the most vicious … the jury is still out … but you’ll have to read a bit more to form your own opinion …

    Until then then its pointless discussing much because Even if I do point out your errors you will just pivot on to another lunatic proposition.

    (* I should explain that since my National Service call-up in 1970 … political/military history has been a passion/hobby of mine … for obvious reason one would think {ie how the fk did this happen to me?} … as it is with my friend who was born in Germany – he has subtle but interesting alternative points of view about WWII … )

  250. TB Queensland permalink
    February 19, 2013 7:39 pm

    Egg, you really are a wanker …

  251. el gordo permalink
    February 19, 2013 8:07 pm

    You are entitled to your opinion TB.

    Its the left who want to take away our freedoms, restrict what we think, not the right.

  252. Ol' Sancty permalink
    February 19, 2013 8:13 pm

    At his age??? Good for him!!

  253. TB Queensland permalink
    February 19, 2013 8:36 pm

    Ignorance really is bliss …

    At his age??? Good for him!!

    Yes, James, egg, can be a wanker at his age … I agree …

  254. TB Queensland permalink
    February 19, 2013 8:39 pm

    Its the left who want to take away our freedoms, restrict what we think, not the right.

    You want to come to Queensland (if you’re allowed over the border) … and see what the Noddy Newman “Freedom Fighters” are doing …

    I see Noddy’s big adventure BrisConnections is going under … and the BC CEO is “blaming lack of traffic” … lol … the people are sending a message … free enterprise on our roads suc ks … fk off …

  255. TB Queensland permalink
    February 19, 2013 8:43 pm

    At his age??? Good for him!!

    You really are an ignorant (in the true sense of the word – look it up) person, James …

  256. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 19, 2013 9:54 pm

    You seem a little grumpy this evening TB.

  257. Truly Evil Walrus @ Palm Bitch permalink
    February 19, 2013 9:58 pm

    “………..The hypocrisy demonstrated by religionists is astoundingly stupid … you don’t love my god so you are bad … ”

    Why don’t you answer your comment and what is different to what Gilders is saying ?

    Then I might address the 2000 “look over there’s ” you planted after that

  258. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 19, 2013 10:00 pm

    TB, the only reason I commented on your turn of phrase earlier was because such infelicity is so rare in your comments. It wasn’t intended to be nasty at all.

    “what has that got to do with indoctrinating primary school children with religion”

    I really don’t know what you are driving at here or what it has to do with me. I’m all for keeping religion out of government schools.

    “In that one sentence you demonstrate your absolute ignorance of politics and political/military history* … and certainly a lack of education …”

    Maybe the point I was making had more to do with the behaviour of the protesters than whether they are actually members of a Nazi militia.

    “When you’ve read it I’ll then discuss with you your understanding of “fascist”, “leftist”, “free speech” and “brownshirts” … you obviously have no idea how any of those words relate to each other …”

    The words condescending cunt curmudgeon spring to mind. Not least because you couldn’t actually be bothered to make out a case I could respond to.

    But the thing that gets me is that here and now in Australia a leftist mob assaults people to stop them attending a lecture. That is a little more significant than whether the description of the mob I employed accords with your view of historical accuracy. I would have thought that might have brought some word of criticism from you. I suppose you might get around to it once you’ve dealt with the important matters

  259. Truly Evil Walrus @ Palm Bitch permalink
    February 19, 2013 10:03 pm

    So are the greens and alp not preferencing each other now.

    LOL

    Hazard a guess that our lying grub of a PM had arranged the “breakup” weeks ago.

    It serves each party to be seperate again

    Its staged .

  260. Truly Evil Walrus @ Palm Bitch permalink
    February 19, 2013 10:08 pm

    “In that one sentence you demonstrate your absolute ignorance of politics and political/military history* …”

    Oh not the War again.

    Sorry splatter it appears TB requires you to don a uniform yet again before he will address you.

    Hey Sancty has a boat

    Sancty……… grab a navy uniform and engage with TB for a change.

    Good luck by the way

  261. Swampy permalink
    February 19, 2013 11:09 pm

    Tom of Melbourne PERMALINK
    February 19, 2013 9:54 pm
    You seem a little grumpy this evening TB.

    As an observe what’s the difference between today and any other.

    He seems to be in a constant state of constipation.

  262. Swampy permalink
    February 19, 2013 11:13 pm

    Swampy

  263. February 19, 2013 11:14 pm

    “You want to come to Queensland”

    No, I don’t think anyone kind of wants to “come to Queensland…”

    (Just sayin’)

  264. Evil Walrus permalink
    February 19, 2013 11:23 pm

    Swampy is moi

    I used an incorrect IP addy and the line went weird

    Anyway

    Fuckin well lighten up TB

  265. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 20, 2013 12:13 am

    Even if I do point out your errors you will just pivot on to another lunatic proposition.

    Pointing out? You are dissembling all over the place SB. Not much focus but I don’t think you intend any, more of a whirling dervish of biased, bilious distortion and confabulation. I’ll give a 6/10 for creativity!

    …Looks like the fascists are out in force. Hello leftists, goodbye free speech. Fucking brownshirt thugs…

    ….Maybe the point I was making had more to do with the behaviour of the protesters than whether they are actually members of a Nazi militia…

    What is that about reaping what you sow?

    Such a hypocrite, complaining about the behaviour of others who simply exercise their right to free speech and protest at some hatemongering bigots holed up in their gestapo HQ, proudly seig heiling each other. Is it mandatory for all supporters to get their hair bleached aryan white like herr wilders? Of course their behaviour is sooo much worse than what is going on inside, the cultivation and promotion of breivik-think.

    As if there’s not already enough ignorant racism in this country. Anyway, isn’t that the reaction you would expect? Your freedom to speak hate vs others freedom to condemn your hate speech?

    Besides, the free speech argument doesn’t wash. The likes of freedom fighters like bolt, hadley, bernardi, jones and wilders etc only want the freedom to incite hatred, ridicule and violence against aboriginals, muslims and anybody else they might detest due to political and/or religious ideology.

    In bolt’s case the judge found “erroneous facts, distortions of the truth and inflammatory and provocative language” that’s what got him, nothing to do with right to speak, it’s just that his free speech was full of baseless lies designed to embarrass and provoke people simply because of their race.

    It’s not free speech you keyboard freedom fighters are concerned about, it’s that you can’t lie, distort, smear, abuse and vilify people based on race. And as we all know, if you lot can’t make shit up, you’ve got nothing.

  266. el gordo permalink
    February 20, 2013 7:35 am

    The other day toilet, Tony and me were discussing the brown shirts and the street battles in Germany … don’t remember seeing TB around. Really enjoyed that conversation, learnt a lot.

    The thing is …..In the 21st century we can rumble the green shirts on the blogosphere without spilling blood. As my eldest son is a green shirt, I hope for all our sakes we can keep ‘this blue’ civil and off the streets.

  267. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 20, 2013 8:41 am

    KL: “Pointing out? You are dissembling all over the place SB.”

    In fact it went like this: you said “What was taxpayer funding for banks after the GFC, if it wasn’t wealth redistribution from the bottom up?”. I then pointed out that your statement was the opposite of the truth. The taxpayers didn’t fund the banks after the GFC. In fact the banks received a guarantee from the government for which they were forced to pay a fee.

    Now that is clearly pointing out a factual inaccuracy. It is not me who is dissembling!

    “What is that about reaping what you sow?”

    That is merely a dumb slogan put about to justify violence. Mind you, it appears that not all violence is protected by this slogan, just that perpetuated by or on behalf of little brown people (to use a leftist cliche).

    In case I am not making myself clear enough, people who attempt to justify mob violence have no place in a civilised society. I now understand what you meant when you said earlier “I just want change and a fairer, more inclusive society.” Apparently that includes a society where leftist goons can assault people to stop them attending a lecture. Thank you for clearing that up.

    “:Such a hypocrite, complaining about the behaviour of others who simply exercise their right to free speech and protest at some hatemongering bigots holed up in their gestapo HQ”

    You can’t even tell the truth can you? In fact my complaint was about leftists who “wrestled with the paying guests as they tried to access the venue, taking their tickets and pushing them to the ground.” I can’t believe that you are defending those thugs. And before some puffed-up poltroon says I am being nasty, the real “nastiness” is supporting violent thuggery, not railing against it.

    As to “Gestapo HQ”, I’ll leave it to TB to lecture you on the history, but aren’t the Gestapo the ones beating people up, you know the thugs you are defending?

    “Besides, the free speech argument doesn’t wash.”

    Yeah. I’m pretty sure it doesn’t wash with those “people” prepared to beat others up to prevent them from attending a lecture.

    Sorry if I sound a little excitable, but it is a black day for this country when a violent mob assaults people for trying to attend a lecture. It is even worse when apparently reasonable people sympathise with the violent mob.

  268. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 20, 2013 8:52 am

    Yippeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee !

    Marius Kloppers has quit

  269. el gordo permalink
    February 20, 2013 10:08 am

    Barnaby Joyce to Tony Burke on the dam fiasco.

    ‘You see, Tony, the common word in your answer is dam, and if you don’t have a dam you definitely can’t mitigate a flood, you definitely can’t generate hydroelectricity and you definitely can’t store water for agricultural and urban use.

    ‘The reality is that the Labor Party are today sitting back thinking to themselves, “That’s a good idea, why didn’t we think of that?”

  270. TB Queensland permalink
    February 20, 2013 10:21 am

    Sorry if I sound a little excitable, but it is a black day for this country when a violent mob assaults people for trying to attend a lecture. It is even worse when apparently reasonable people sympathise with the violent mob.

    No-one has sympathised with the “mob” … only in your own mind perhaps …

    The “violent mob” deserves the same chastisement as the mob that attempted to do the same ting to the PM a few months ago …

  271. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 20, 2013 10:37 am

    “No-one has sympathised with the “mob” …” – TB

    Really ????????????????????

    “……..Such a hypocrite, complaining about the behaviour of others who simply exercise their right to free speech and protest at some hatemongering bigots holed up in their gestapo HQ, proudly seig heiling each other…………..” – KL

    I’d say that’s a Defence of a Mob plus a complete misrepresentation another group of people trying to listen to someone exercising freedom of speech

  272. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 20, 2013 10:50 am

    TB, glad to see you condemn the violence even if it does come with a “look over there” rider.

    As to “No-one has sympathised with the “mob”, it wnet like this: I complained about the assaults perpetrated by the mob, quoting a report from ABC news about attendees being shoved to the ground and having their tickets stolen. In reply KL said:

    Such a hypocrite, complaining about the behaviour of others who simply exercise their right to free speech

    So if recharacterising mob violence as ‘simply exercising their right to free speech’ is not sympathising with the mob, what is it?

  273. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 20, 2013 11:53 am

    I’d say that’s a Defence of a Mob plus a complete misrepresentation another group of people trying to listen to someone exercising freedom of speech

    yep, and for the record, I don’t condemn it.
    I have long had the belief that the call for non-violence only protects those who want to control and suppress any legitimate protest. These people have made their ‘call to arms’
    to the white supremacists. Dunno why it bothers warmongers who would happily rush into war over any lie or perceived threat. Isn’t this ‘anti-islam’ just another form of warfare with the warriors of the right deciding they need to protect all that is white & neocolonial by drumming up fear and inciting hate?

    If they want to incite hatred and violence under the guise of ‘free speech’ then they have to accept the consequences of their own actions.

    Don’t pretend it’s a ‘free speech issue. Funny how the only people who want to spread hatred and fear and attack others’ rights to live free from abuse and vilification are those on the right.

    You all know that ‘freedom of speech’ is not an unqualified right don’t you? Andrew Bolt found that out.

    Wonder how well it would go down if geert wilders, cory bernardi and co. substituted the word jew or aussie for muslim?

    You also know that there is not a protected right to free speech in australia don’t you? We don’t have a bill of rights here. Somehow the same freedom fighting warriors who proclaim their so-called ‘right’ to free speech, holding it up like a shield when confronted, never want a bill of rights, do they?

    http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=14658

    …Without a Bill of Rights, free speech is not a right in Australia. It is implied in the Australian Constitution but laws determine speech only to be free if it does not incite, harm or offend. According to the Australian Immigration Department,the intention of free speech must be constructive and not to do harm. There are laws against saying or writing things to incite hatred against others because of their culture, ethnicity or background…

    …Reports urging white supremacists to gather at Wilders addresses, held at undisclosed locations, ready “for trouble and a no-holds barred fight” suggest incitement and likely harm…

    …Radio Free Australia, the self-proclaimed “voice of white revolution in Australia”, has announced that it “encourage[s] you in the strongest possible terms…” to attend. With the locations only made available to ticket holders, the day before Wilders speeches, the broadcast further claims this will “reduce the amount of time that Islamic terrorists will have to organise counter-demonstrations and generally cause trouble.” It further incites “it is quite likely” there will be “Islamic violence”. “We would encourage all patriots to exercise their legal right of self-defence if any ragheads…use violence”.

    Nice. Your defence of these bigoted and prejudiced people does you no credit.

    Guess it’s really good timing, wonder if cory thought that up all by himself. Just suits the right wing agenda very handily doesn’t it, to have a really divisive racial issue on the front page in an election year? Might get the same ‘stop the boats’ crowd fired up eh? Bit like Howard’s election winning ‘children overboard’.

    Just another coalition stunt. There will be many more before election day.

  274. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 20, 2013 12:28 pm

    KL, that is one of the most appalling things I have read. I suppose you think that Theo van Gogh deserved what he got as well. That is certainly the logical conclusion of your argument. Please tell me that you are at least prepared to draw the line at murder. Of a man who made a film critical of violence against women in muslim countries. Or do you think he should have just shut up about that issue out of deference to muslim sensibilities?

    This reminds me of why, at uni, I walked away from the hard left. I didn’t want to be associated with their intolerance of different opinions and their casual indifference to perpetrating violence on people they disagreed with.

    I don’t even particularly agree with Wilders’ approach, but I am much happier defending his right to express them than to associate with a bunch of thugs who want to shut him up. That lot have no place in a civilised society.

  275. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 20, 2013 12:41 pm

    Have a look:

    ‘anti-islamic patriotic society’ The Q Society [there’s plenty of industry money flowing into the cory bernardi/ liberal/ IPA astroturfing & propaganda machinery isn’t there?]

    http://www.qsociety.org.au/

    and a listen:

    http://kiwi6.com/file/59c4x9861i

    I suppose you think that Theo van Gogh deserved what he got as well. That is certainly the logical conclusion of your argument.

    I suppose you think the anders breivik victims, just children and the ‘collateral damage’ of innocent iraqi and afghanistan citizens deserved what they all got?

    That is certainly the logical conclusion of your argument.

  276. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 20, 2013 1:43 pm

    “That is certainly the logical conclusion of your argument.”

    Wrong again! I’m the one here who condemns violence. Something apparently you can’t bring yourself to do. I’m just interested in where you draw the line, at what stage would you actually be prepared to condemn violence? Murder? A severe beating?

  277. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 20, 2013 1:56 pm

    As a shareholder I find this to be an outrage

    BHP Billiton paid $77M in Mining Tax out of the gross total of $126M

    They clearly need new tax accountants

    I might put my hand up

    LOL

  278. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 20, 2013 2:06 pm

    2DT, I wonder if the opposition will repeal the extension of the PRRT to onshore production. It seems to have been relatively uncontroversial and may actually generate revenue.

  279. Ol' Sancty permalink
    February 20, 2013 2:47 pm

    So, specifically, Kittylitter, what is it about what Wilders says that you object to so vehemently? A supporting quote would be handy.

  280. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 20, 2013 3:43 pm

    “It seems to have been relatively uncontroversial and may actually generate revenue.”

    Well its alot easier to understand.

    Obviously designed when Treasury actually had some practical people within it.

  281. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 20, 2013 3:46 pm

    I’m just interested in where you draw the line, at what stage would you actually be prepared to condemn violence? Murder? A severe beating?

    I do condemn violence, I condemn any unprovoked, unjustified assault on anyone. However if I am peacefully minding my own business, causing no harm or offence and “someone comes along and kicks my dog sleeping on the porch”, I am going to retaliate [analogy given by US citizens after 9/11]
    In your case the aggressor is deliberately provoking, looking for a fight, so cannot legitimately complain when it comes their way. I’m sure that given sufficient provocation, I could even be roused to violence as could most people.

    …Of a man who made a film critical of violence against women in muslim countries. Or do you think he should have just shut up about that issue out of deference to muslim sensibilities?…

    There is plenty of violence against women in our sexist western culture as well, why single out muslims? The violence against all women should be highlighted and addressed. It’s an issue across all cultures. Don’t point the finger at one group or race and be wilfully blind to the violence perpetrated in our own homes and streets, or does that offend western whitey male sensibilities? Do I really need to mention recent events in india, sth africa and here in oz to remind you? Maybe it wouldn’t appear so hypocritical if our own society didn’t have a big problem with violence towards women. Tony Abbott’s own student days were full of sexist behaviour, violence, intimidation and thuggery. It’s a universal male thing, not just muslims.

    This reminds me of why, at uni, I walked away from the hard left. I didn’t want to be associated with their intolerance of different opinions and their casual indifference to perpetrating violence on people they disagreed with.

    There’s a huge difference between inflammatory, provocative, prejudiced and biased “opinion” and language. There is plenty of freedom for a civil discourse where debate is conducted in a respectful and civilised manner, you can still get your point across. You want a cowards freedom to provoke, offend, abuse and lie about others yet hypocritically demanding self restraint or an imposed ‘jackbooting’ from the state enforcers upon those deliberately provoked.

    Do you really think words like white revolution, towelheads, filthy vermin, raghead camel fucking islamic filth who have no place in a civil society, evil bastards that they are etc are words of civil public discourse, a ‘lecture’ ? This is coming from your liberal party although the phony abbott, who like the rest of his mafia will pretend he’s got nothing to do with it hence the need for all the front groups with secret funding and membership.

    Have an open mind and come along the promo says! What a joke, there would be no open mind on display.

  282. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 20, 2013 3:48 pm

    “A supporting quote would be handy.”

    Good luck with that one Sancty

    I read somewhere today that a “zealot” is someone who despite all the evidence to the contrary will continue to rant on about their point of view regardless.

    KL fits the description perfectly

  283. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 20, 2013 3:56 pm

    For you Sancty, some Wilders quotes:

    “This country has excise taxes on gasoline and diesel, parking permits and a dog tax, had an air traffic tax and has a packaging tax, so why not a headscarf tax? A “head rag tax”. (..) This way we are finally going to earn back on what has already cost us so much. My line is: the polluter pays.”
    Contribution of Geert Wilders to the Parliament debate on the 2010 state budget, PVV.nl website, 16 September 2009

    “Therefore: time to thoroughly clean up our streets. If our ‘new Dutchmen’ are so keen on showing their love for a seventh-century desert ideology, go ahead and do it in some islamic country, but not here, not in our country.”
    Contribution of Geert Wilders to the Parliament debate on the 2010 state budget, PVV.nl website, 16 September 2009

    “The heart of the problem is the fascist islam, the sick ideology of Allah and Mohammed as it is laid out in the islamic “Mein Kampf”: the Quran.”
    Geert Wilders, De Volkskrant, 8 August 2007

    “If muslims want to stay here, they have to tear out half of the Quran and throw it away.”
    Geert Wilders, interview in De Pers, 13 February 2007

    “I’ve had enough of the Quran in The Netherlands: ban that fascist book.”
    Geert Wilders, De Volkskrant, 8 August 2007

    Interviewer: “What will be the first thing you will change if you would be leading The Netherlands tomorrow?”
    Wilders: “The borders will be closed the very same day for all non-Western immigrants.”
    Geert Wilders, interview in De Volkskrant, 7 October 2006

    “You can only answer intolerance with intolerance, there is no other way, my friends. That might not be pleasant, not politically correct. But if you don’t to be eaten yourself, you will have to eat the other.”
    Geert Wilders, NRC, 24 May 2008

    ”Muhammad was a warlord, terrorist and paedophile (who slept with a wife when she was nine). If 1.5 billion people think he is the best example to follow it’s fair and necessary to analyse it and be able to talk about it.” – Melbourne 2013

    I don’t agree with a lot of that, and I wouldn’t express it in that way. Nevertheless when Wilders complains that Islam is a violent religion many of its practitioners prove him right by ensuring that he has to live his life under police protection. That speaks to his personal bravery and demonstrates that he is a much better person than his critics.

    What I don’t get is the leftist/islamofascist alliance. I would have thought the left would support the guy calling out religious fundamentalists for their treatment of women and gays but it is a strange world we live in.

  284. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 20, 2013 4:15 pm

    KL: “I do condemn violence, I condemn any unprovoked, unjustified assault on anyone. However if I am peacefully minding my own business, causing no harm or offence “

    There is always an excuse for leftist thugs isn’t there?

    In this case the lefty goons weren’t minding their own business. They traveled a long way to beat up some people they didn’t even know, whose only crime was that they wanted to hear a lecture. The people the the leftists beat up certainly didn’t provoke them. The fuckwit loony lefties didn’t even know them. They were just a vile violent rabble looking for a fight. And yet you can’t condemn them.

    It could have been me who got beaten up and I don’t even agree with a lot of what Wilders says, but I still would like to hear the man speak.

    And don’t give me that “look over there bullshit”. Most lefty feminists are stinking hypocrites when it comes to the treatment of women in Islamic countries. Instead of saying everyone should shut up until they satisfy your false equivalence criteria, a principled person would support any person or group standing up for womens’ rights, even if they only deal with one particular case at a time.

    And just for the record, please tell me where you draw the line when it comes to violence? Is it the killing of Theo van Gogh? And tell me what degree of provocation (and I mean provocation by words here) is enough for you to justify violence? Hell, who knows, when it comes to idiotic subjective criteria like that I might have said enough provocative things about leftists here to warrant a good beating!

  285. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 20, 2013 4:37 pm

    I read somewhere today that a “zealot” is someone who despite all the evidence to the contrary will continue to rant on about their point of view regardless.

    Like climate change deniers? Who regardless of their own dedicated threads will continue to foul every thread with their denier rants, even when no-one is the slightest bit interested in their point of view.

  286. TB Queensland permalink
    February 20, 2013 4:50 pm

    What I don’t get is the leftist/islamofascist alliance.

    I’ll ignore that ignorance …. BTW the Wilders quote above demonstrates more of a fascist mind than anything else … strange he would use Mein Kampf as a detractor while making all the noises that Hitler’s Nazi Party did against the Jews … still being Dutch (I have Dutch relatives) he chooses to close the border rather than expand them as Hitler did …

    I would have thought the left would support the guy calling out religious fundamentalists for their treatment of women and gays but it is a strange world we live in.

    sp, its not a left/right, black and white issue … its tolerance of the majority of religions* … its the nutters from all religions that bother people … no matter what politics they are …

    (Really a tolerance of all people if they wish to live, work and play in the same place … eg citties )

  287. Tom R permalink
    February 20, 2013 5:03 pm

    I read somewhere today that a “zealot” is someone who despite all the evidence to the contrary will continue to rant on about their point of view regardless

    But yomm said he ‘wasn’t’ a zealot about workchoices. One wonders why he harped on about it so much then?

  288. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 20, 2013 5:15 pm

    They traveled a long way to beat up some people they didn’t even know,

    Yes, the netherlands is a long way to come to stir up trouble and strife on someone else’s doorstep. The people who organised and funded that ought to be ashamed.

    “stop the stunts”

  289. el gordo permalink
    February 20, 2013 5:16 pm

    ‘Like climate change deniers? Who regardless of their own dedicated threads will continue to foul every thread with their denier rants, even when no-one is the slightest bit interested in their point of view.’

    But its alright for the warmista/feminista to talk about carbon pollution on other threads without criticism.

    You’re definitely a green shirt.

  290. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 20, 2013 5:19 pm

    “Like climate change deniers?”

    There you go again……………………You cant help yourself

    I said……….. “a “zealot” is someone who despite all the evidence”

    Or don’t you understand what “all” means ?

  291. Tom R permalink
    February 20, 2013 5:26 pm

    Apparently, this thread is about ‘confidence’

    Wonder how widely this will be reported in order to build that?

  292. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 20, 2013 5:28 pm

    TB don’t hit me with the old false equivalence thing again. I guess Wilders is looking around, seeing Theo van Gogh murdered in an Amsterdam street with an islamic manifesto pinned to his chest with a knife, seeing that he has to live his life under police protection and wondering where all the people are who live in fear of the baptists or any other christian sect.

    Then we have Ayaan Hirsi Ali (who is a true hero of our times) also living her life under police protection for the crime of stating her views about Islam. Views formed from her own personal experiences with Islam, including being genitally mutilated by her devout grandmother as a child. She has fairly similar views on Islam to Wilders. I wonder if KL would regard her has “reaping what she has sown”, or if you would see her as being too “black and white”.

    As to Islam, I don’t condemn the whole religion. In fact I don’t see it is one thing at all. Better just to criticise particular beliefs which are offensive. The problem I have with your approach is that you seem to think it is somehow wrong for people to focus on particularly nasty beliefs attributed to islam. For example if you believe that apostates or blasphemers or those who insult the prophet should be killed then you are entirely worthless piece of shit, deserving universal condemnation. There is no Buddhist, Christian, Hindu or other equivalent, except possibly some rare exception. There is certainly no country, other than islamic countries, which prescribes the death penalty for such conduct. So why bother with the false equivalence.

    There are any number of valid reasons why people might attack abuses of human rights pertrated in the name of Islam. In Wilders’ case It could be that he doesn’t like having to live his life under police protection, or that he resents the fact that van Gogh was murdered or that another friend of his was recently shot by a Koranimal*. In Hirsi Ali’s case it might be her own life experiences or her experiences working with oppressed immigrant women in the Netherlands. In other cases people might see islam as a greater problem because all of the countries with the death penalty for homosexuality on the books purport to do so because of sharia law. I can’t for the life of me see why you would have a problem with any of that.

    * this is a term I reserve for those who use the Koran as an excuse to kill people.

  293. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 20, 2013 5:44 pm

    They were just a vile violent rabble looking for a fight. And yet you can’t condemn them.

    You seem to have a very ‘one eyed’ slant to the event and appear to be trying to minimise the motivations of your ‘side’. What about when both groups are harbouring a ‘vile violent rabble looking for a fight’?

    What part of “it takes two to tango, don’t you understand?

    “urging white supremacists to gather at Wilders addresses, held at undisclosed locations, ready “for trouble and a no-holds barred fight”…
    …“it is quite likely” there will be “Islamic violence”. “We would encourage all patriots to exercise their legal right of self-defence if any ragheads…use violence”…

    If abbott’s mob wanted wilders here to deliver a simple little lecture, why all the publicity? why not have him slip into the country unannounced and go about his business without all the publicity and fanfare?

    If it’s all so nice and decent, why doesn’t abbott talk him up and defend the visit organised by his mob without hiding behind fronts with undisclosed membership/funding? So typical of the right wing haters.

    Besides, it’s all going gangbusters for you isn’t it, dunno why you’re whinging – this is exactly the outcome the coalition has striven to achieve, it’s a huge success, their ‘tampa’ moment has arrived, just as planned. Watch for the usual saturation media coverage – tick! racial divide -tick, angry protests – tick, right wing shock jock outrage – tick, muslim bashing – tick, white fear and ignorant prejudice – tick.

    Oh well, at least they are leaving the aborigines alone!

    “stop the stunts”

  294. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 20, 2013 5:49 pm

    I said……….. “a “zealot” is someone who despite all the evidence”

    get real…and informed, a zealot is a zealot for whatever their cause, evidence doesn’t come into it 🙄

  295. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 20, 2013 5:56 pm

    “You seem to have a very ‘one eyed’ slant to the event and appear to be trying to minimise the motivations of your ‘side’. What about when both groups are harbouring a ‘vile violent rabble looking for a fight’?”

    You are confusing the aggressors – the ones who traveled 40km from Melbourne for no good reason at all other than to make trouble – with the victims who went there to attend a lecture and wanted to do so unmolested by lefty thugs. I know you think the silver-haired lady whose tickets were ripped from her hands had it coming, that she was just there to beat up some poor pacifist protesters but I’m not buying your moral equivalence bullshit today.

    “What part of “it takes two to tango, don’t you understand?”

    The part where it takes one violent thug to push someone else to the ground. I suppose if someone beats you up you must be equally to blame, right? I mean what part of “it takes two to tango”, don’t you understand?

  296. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 20, 2013 8:21 pm

    I’m not buying your moral equivalence bullshit today.

    I'm not buying your extreme right bullshit anyday.

    Apologies for the length, can't link as crikey-paywalled, they had a reporter outside and inside the venue.

    Wilders from the inside, where mouths are ‘more dangerous than guns’:

    …Dutch anti-Islam politician Geert Wilders spoke in Melbourne last night. Shakira Hussein, a Muslim, attended for Crikey — she found it weird and at times menacing…
    ….“Please, can’t I just go in? I have multiple sclerosis, it’s difficult for me with all these people milling around. If I get bumped, I’ll fall right over. I’ve been through the metal detectors. I don’t have a gun.”

    “Mouths can be more dangerous than guns,” she responded…

    “What’s your outlook, coming here tonight?” he asked. ”I’m here to listen and learn.” He persisted: ”But your outlook?” ”Well, I’m Muslim …”

    “That’s OK. We don’t hate Muslims. But,” he said, sitting me down “we have very heavy security. If you interrupt, or interject, you will be immediately ejected.” He gestured towards my walking stick, my overall physical frailty. “That might injure your back. You wouldn’t want that, would you?”

    “I’m not here to interrupt,” I protested. “Believe me …”

    “I’m just telling you. You will be evicted and you might get hurt.” He patted my shoulder. “But I love Muslims.”

    I sat back in shock, absorbing the fact this mild-mannered man had just threatened me with assault if I stepped out of line. News Limited papers describe the atmosphere inside the convention centre as “serene”. It felt menacing to me…

    …A woman sitting nearby leapt to her feet with her arms outflung and an expression of almost s-xual rapture across her face when Wilders told the crowd to draw upon the Anzac spirit in the defence of their country against “Islamisation”…

    …Wilders closed with what he told us was a message of hope. It was not too late to turn back the tide of Islamisation if we took a few simple steps: halt all immigration from Islamic societies, and find and elect politicians who are not afraid to tell the truth about Islam…

    Wilders from the outside: ‘here comes Nazi scum’:

    …As Geert Wilders spoke in Melbourne last night, protesters gathered outside — but it was less violent, and more ideological, than mainstream media reported. Crikey intern Michelle Slater was there…
    …Signs included “F-ck off we’re full — of wankers already”. Or “Fascism is not to be tolerated — It’s to be smashed.”
    I attended the protest, talking to people — and I never felt threatened. In fact, I felt a jovial spirit of solidarity emanating from the left-wing comrades.
    …Ten mounted police guarded the venue’s high wrought-iron gates. The horses looked relaxed and stood sedately on loose reins. I gave one of them a pat…

    …Another perspective was provided by protester Hillel Freedman, aged 41 from East Bentleigh: “I’m here as a Jewish person. This kind of thing compares to the same kind of thing Adolf Hitler said before he rose to power,” he told Crikey. “Hitler’s original intention was to [expatriate] Jews from Europe. I draw parallels to Geert Wilders, who wants to expat Muslims to back where they come from.”

    The irony of some Arabic writing on the convention centre’s entry sign was not lost on Sue Bolton, Socialist Alliance councillor for Moreland City Council. “It’s no accident that the right-wing organise their meetings here in a working-class suburb with a high population of Muslims,” she said…

    “stop the stunts”

  297. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 20, 2013 8:39 pm

    Enter the australian with yet another pro abbott puff piece [not paywalled, because they want this propaganda to be seen]

    Bernardi tests Abbott’s patience by backing Dutch MP Geert Wilders:

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/bernardi-tests-abbotts-patience-by-backing-dutch-mp-geert-wilders/story-fn59niix-1226582135815

    Except the article does not mention a word of criticism or impatience from abbott toward bernardil. They are not mentioned in the same sentence together.

    Abbott gets to say wilders is ‘substantially’ wrong on islam and then appears all muslim loving, mr nice-guy. Warm & fuzzies all round. No, nothing to do with abbott all this mussie bashing.

    What can I say, exactly as planned eh?

    “stop the stunts”

  298. TB Queensland permalink
    February 20, 2013 9:30 pm

    The problem I have with your approach is that you seem to think it is somehow wrong for people to focus on particularly nasty beliefs attributed to islam. For example if you believe that apostates or blasphemers or those who insult the prophet should be killed then you are entirely worthless piece of shit, deserving universal condemnation.

    You have more than one problem, sunshine, and it isn’t me … 🙄

    You really should read, Mein Kampf, (I finally finished it BTW) you would whizz through it …

  299. el gordo permalink
    February 20, 2013 10:36 pm

    Hitler’s time in prison was not wasted, by the time he got out he was no longer the Bavarian clown that went in.

  300. Ol' Sancty permalink
    February 20, 2013 10:39 pm

    So…..in short……those Catholics are a bunch of sexist, misogynist, kiddie rootin’ scum and the fuckin’ Jews are an intolerant bunch who want to control the world but the Muslims are ok. They’re not as enlightened as us atheists, but they’re ok.

  301. Evil Walrus permalink
    February 20, 2013 10:48 pm

    Exactly !

    LOL

  302. el gordo permalink
    February 20, 2013 11:11 pm

    How things turn out is alah’s will, which is not far removed from catlick thinking … apparently ‘god works in mysterious ways’.

    So anyone who believes in a diety is dim, my dad’s one of those. Nice enough fella, but a rusted on god botherer no less.

    A few years back he visited an old drinking hole in Campsie and saw the usual half dozen soaks leaning against the bar, but was shocked to see an equal number of Muslim gentlemen sitting on the carpeted floor drinking coffee.

    “I was disgusted and walked out,” he said.

    Hmmm….

  303. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 21, 2013 1:59 am

    So…..in short……those Catholics are a bunch of sexist, misogynist, kiddie rootin’ scum and the fuckin’ Jews are an intolerant bunch who want to control the world but the Muslims are ok. They’re not as enlightened as us atheists, but they’re ok.

    Who said that?

    Certainly not me. You do like to misrepresent people don’t you james? More bolt-ing.

    For the record, I don’t take issue with the hate hang-outs, let them spruik as much as they like, just don’t get outraged when others exercise their right to protest at the racism and bigotry.

    Anyway, abbott says we don’t have the problem that wilders is trying to drum up fear about, we’ve only got good aussie mossie citizens here, so no need to re-organise the national front. Guess he thinks its a win/win stunt for votes, get the hansonites vote and might also pick up a few from some gullible muslims who think he’s actually defending rather than manipulating them. Wow, what an expensive exercise, there’s some big mining $ flowing their way!

  304. February 21, 2013 8:31 am

    “I was disgusted and walked out.”

    I like his style. There’s no point in storming out of some joint unless its done in utter disgust.

  305. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 21, 2013 8:48 am

    “Guess he thinks its a win/win stunt for votes”

    Or he might actually disagree with Wilders. I doubt he’d sink as low as Keating in over-ruling departmental advice to let the rabid Sheikh Hilali stay here to win a few lousy votes. And he is nowhere near the vindictive racist Whitlam who, while his lefty mates were killing people in Vietnam, refused to take in Vietnamese refugees fleeing the slaughter saying: “I will not have those f—— yellow Balts with their religious and political prejudices against us”. No wonder Whitlam is revered in Unionland!

  306. Tom R permalink
    February 21, 2013 8:58 am

    I wonder what this does for ‘confidence’?

    ”People are screaming that the revised tax is a disaster because it has hardly raised any money. But they would have been screaming more if we had the original tax – it would have cost the government money,” Mr Richardson said. ”Much of the bad press about the revised tax has been overdone. Yes, it was a hurried compromise, but any super profits tax would be struggling to make money at the moment because the miners aren’t making super profits.”

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/original-mining-tax-would-cost-billions-20130220-2erqk.html#ixzz2LTlHsFp6

  307. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 21, 2013 9:07 am

    I see your point Tom R. But then if you didn’t expect much revenue from the tax, would you budget for it or base recurrent spending on it?

  308. Tom R permalink
    February 21, 2013 9:12 am

    would you budget for it or base recurrent spending on it?

    Well, to be accurate, they budgeted to what Treasury had forecast. As for ‘recurrent’ spending, that is always taken a year at a time. I didn’t hear much of a cry about it when the states were locked into a volatile GST, and then expected to hand everything over for it.

  309. Ol' Sancty permalink
    February 21, 2013 9:23 am

    GST is not a volatile tax in this context.

  310. February 21, 2013 9:31 am

    Congratulations James, on the family addition.

  311. Tom R permalink
    February 21, 2013 9:36 am

    GST is not a volatile tax in this context.

    Tell it to the states

  312. Ol' Sancty permalink
    February 21, 2013 9:37 am

    Thanks Miglo. Yes, I’ve had the boat for about 12 years now and had a lot of fun on her…….oh………you mean Olivia……..cheers mate.

  313. Ol' Sancty permalink
    February 21, 2013 9:41 am

    The states wouldn’t say it is either. Not comparable to the Mining Tax. But you already know that. You’re just muddying otherwise clear waters. The Mining Tax (and especially the expenditure attached to it) is a diabolical fuck up.

  314. Tom R permalink
    February 21, 2013 9:48 am

    is a diabolical fuck up.

    That’s your opinion, not a fact. The facts are, it is doing what it is supposed to be doing, not taxing companies when they are struggling.

    And no, it isn’t muddying the waters. States need to budget on expected returns. But they don’t know exactly what they are getting in GST each year, it is a projection. And it can fall dramatically.

    The budget papers show NSW will record a deficit of $337 million this financial year, rising to an $824 million deficit in 2012-13. This is largely due to a collapse in expected GST payments from the Commonwealth of more than $5 billion since last September’s budget.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/home-buyers-hit-as-gst-drop-forces-budget-into-the-red-20120612-2074o.html#ixzz2LTxi4J33

    $5 billion is a bigger drop than $2 billion (and it might not even be $2 billion by the end of the year)

  315. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 9:57 am

    “As for ‘recurrent’ spending, that is always taken a year at a time.”

    What a load of Crap

    Its in the Forward Estimates

  316. February 21, 2013 9:59 am

    “not taxing companies when they are struggling.”

    The mining companies are “struggling?” 😯

  317. Ol' Sancty permalink
    February 21, 2013 10:00 am

    That’s your opinion, not a fact. The facts are, it is doing what it is supposed to be doing, not taxing companies when they are struggling.

    That’s fine. Then put the proceeds to a Future Fund, where the necessity for access to the cash can be smoothed out over a longer period. Instead they attached immediate expenditure to it. It’s a diabolical fuck up. They know it. Everyone knows it. Except perhaps for you.

    And no, it isn’t muddying the waters. States need to budget on expected returns. But they don’t know exactly what they are getting in GST each year, it is a projection. And it can fall dramatically.

    Of course it’s muddying the waters. On that basis every tax is volatile. It’s the specific nature of the expenditure attached to the Mining Tax as compared to the uncertain nature of its revenue that puts this tax in its own special class of fuck up. Much like the Carbon Tax really. A whole bunch of expenditure attached to a tax that when it becomes a “price” will drop to almost nothing.

  318. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 10:02 am

    The current mining tax only makes sense if it is “banked” and only used for infrastructure spending. Is subject to International Commodity Prices.

    Yes the GST can be volatile but it is tied to domestic economic strength………………………which we aint got.

    The Mining Industry (almost the only thing still feeding growth) wont feed into the GST because GST is not received on exports

  319. Tom R permalink
    February 21, 2013 10:03 am

    The mining companies are “struggling?” 😯

    Yea, good call reb

    Not making fucking huge profits might have been a better way of putting it.

    I can just see the headlines if they had been taxed an extra $2billion after just recording their first ever loss (Rio I think it was)

    People really appear to forget it is a tax on ‘Super’ profits. If they aint making them, they aint being taxed on them. In other words, it’s doing it’s job.

  320. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 10:05 am

    Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaark !

    Thanks alot Sancty……………………………………I try not to be reminded about the even bigger fuckup still facing the Nation…………..the Carbon Tax and the way its recurent spending will effectively become completely unfunded.

    What a fucking mess this joint is in and yet to confront

  321. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 10:09 am

    The GST is variable in the same way as Company Tax is and Income Tax and Capital Gains Taxes.

    As Sancty said the MRRT has a pedestal by itself in the “ALP Museum of Fiscal Fuckups”

  322. Tom R permalink
    February 21, 2013 10:11 am

    Yes the GST can be volatile but it is tied to domestic economic strength

    And state budgets are tied to that volatility.

    I’d suggest waiting on the next budget to see what happens with this, because as the states need to do all time with their ‘volatility’, budgets will show what is happening.

    Unlike the opposition, the Government cannot do their budget on a one page Excel sheet, it is run in the real world. Perhaps the tax will return more by then, or they will find it elsewhere, or they will cut something. Either way, it will be seen then, until then, it;s shooting shit at a shadows.

    Much like the Carbon Tax really. A whole bunch of expenditure attached to a tax that when it becomes a “price” will drop to almost nothing.

    One could argue that once that price drops, the expenditure from it will no longer be necessary. So, nothing like the Carbon Price, which cannot even wipe a town off the map. 😉

  323. Ol' Sancty permalink
    February 21, 2013 10:18 am

    GST takes……..hardly “volatile” as compared to the Mining Tax.

    http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/BudgetReview201213/GSTPool

    So it’s true, TomR is Craig Emerson. Certainly the intellect matches.

  324. February 21, 2013 10:19 am

    “What a fucking mess this joint is in and yet to confront”

    Oh come one Jaws, Australia is in great shape.

    Low interest rates
    Low inflation
    Low unemployment

    And now the share market is showing strong consistent gains.

    Surely you would acknowledge that the share market is a key indicator of the strength of the economy…??

  325. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 10:23 am

    “So it’s true, TomR is Craig Emerson.”

    Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaark Sancty…………don’t do it to me

    I saw Emerson jogging around near Sydney’s Circular Quay at 8am a few weeks back.

    And I was in my 4WD……………………………….I could have lost control and mounted the footpath…………

    …………but then that would spare us from the comedy act that TomR puts on each day.

  326. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 10:25 am

    “And now the share market is showing strong consistent gains.”

    I’m actually over $36K down this morning on my basket of blue chips

  327. February 21, 2013 10:29 am

    So no lunch at machiavelli’s for you today then Jaws…..

    You’ll just have to slum it at Subway for 12 inches like the rest of us….. 😉

  328. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 10:32 am

    I’ll be heading off to Matthew Talbots at this rate ………………LOL

  329. Tom R permalink
    February 21, 2013 10:33 am

    …………but then that would spare us from the comedy act that TomR puts on each day.

    Need I say it .. 2008 😆

  330. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 10:34 am

    The ASX was overdue for a big correction……………………………..and that bus arrived on the opening bell this morning

  331. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 10:38 am

    “Need I say it .. 2008”

    If you actually had any comprehension skills TomR you’d see that 2007 and 2008 were highlighted by me (as stated at the time) because they represented truly massive falls in emissions compared to the pathetic……….. what ?…… six tenths of one percent you hailed as some sort of link.

    So for you

    Comprehension = Fail

    Comedy=Gold Star

  332. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 10:41 am

    Please stand near Circular Quay at the corner of Bridge and Macquarie Streets tomorrow morning in your black running shorts and red t shirt. Just outside the Hotel School

    I’ll be there waiting.

    You wont miss me……………………………..I’ll be dressed in my black 4WD.

  333. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 10:42 am

    Oh…………..is 7:30am OK

    Sharp

    I’d hate to miss you.

    LOL

  334. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 21, 2013 10:43 am

    You are being a bit tough on TomR, 2DT. At least he is consistent – he will spin for all it is worth any ALP talking point, no matter how ludicrous.

  335. el gordo permalink
    February 21, 2013 10:49 am

    ‘Comedy=Gold Star’

    TomR is amusing at times, but he really needs the help of a professional straight man.

  336. Meta permalink
    February 21, 2013 10:54 am

    The intertemporal accounting manipulations will, perhaps, catch up with their rearrangers eventually; that there’s a perverse incentive to minimize incidence now, on the ‘promise’ of the MRRT being rescinded before that disarrangement crystallizes, doesn’t necessarily mean that the overall scheme, over longer time period, ie years, is botched; nor does it mean that various parties didn’t introduce the initial scheme as more than an interim measure, with the intention of expanding it, per the original design, at a later point, once the thing was bedded down. Hence, the ongoing blather about (sovereign) risk, and the argey bargey from the Greens, etc; and sundry references to the Henry Review. No?

    (Or something like that.)

  337. Tom R permalink
    February 21, 2013 10:55 am

    Comprehension = Fail

    Well, why did you use it then to support what hunt had claimed, as that was not what he had claimed at all.

    Looks like he’s actually using Combet’s own Climate Department website as it shows the claim of a Carbon Tax link for any fall as just bullshit when compared to previous years.

    https://thedailytrash.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/new-poll-spells-certain-election-annihilation-for-julia-giddard/#comment-16462

    https://thedailytrash.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/new-poll-spells-certain-election-annihilation-for-julia-giddard/#comment-16468

    So don’t talk to me about comprehension fail. You tried to use an (unlinked) graph which you later highlight as being the 2008 one to support hunts claim of there being no drop in emissions since the introduction of the Carbon Price.

    And then today you jump on the snacty bandwagon of the volatility of the GST not being equivalent to the Mining Tax, even though I never claimed them to be equivalent, just an example of a volatile tax (which it obviously is)

    Talk about comprehension fail, you don’t even know what your writing, let alone others. 😯

    2008 😆

  338. Tom R permalink
    February 21, 2013 10:56 am

    Well put Meta. If only I could have said it with that simplicity 😉

  339. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 11:02 am

    “The intertemporal accounting manipulations will, perhaps, catch up with their rearrangers eventually;”

    No they wont………..Because you’ll never get control of state royalties

    i.e. the States will get to the “Super Profit” first

  340. TB Queensland permalink
    February 21, 2013 11:06 am

    I’m still trying to figure out this distortion of facts and or history … very creative stuff …

    And he is nowhere near the vindictive racist Whitlam who, while his lefty mates were killing people in Vietnam, refused to take in Vietnamese refugees fleeing the slaughter saying: “I will not have those f—— yellow Balts with their religious and political prejudices against us”.

  341. Tom R permalink
    February 21, 2013 11:07 am

    i.e. the States will get to the “Super Profit” first

    That’s still to be determined yet in the high court from my understanding.

  342. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 11:08 am

    No TomR

    I used Combet’s own website to expose your BS about the Carbon Tax being responsible for the Emissions drop when its clear many factors affect emissions.

    Anyway its academic since that lying grub of a PM Gillard is going to allow her massive ego to steer your precious party over a cliff face so high that the Federal Parliamentary party will be calling upon it Queensland counterparts to borrow their Tarago Mini Bus to ferry them around after September.

  343. Tom R permalink
    February 21, 2013 11:10 am

    I used Combet’s own website to expose your BS about the Carbon Tax being responsible for the Emissions drop when its clear many factors affect emissions.

    Well, why did you use it then to support what hunt had claimed, as that was not what he had claimed at all.

  344. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 11:15 am

    “That’s still to be determined yet in the high court from my understanding.”

    Oh…………..so like Thomson and Williamson court cases you’d rather wait for the verdict LOL

  345. Tom R permalink
    February 21, 2013 11:18 am

    you’d rather wait for the verdict

    Silly me 😯

  346. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 11:48 am

    Meaning…………….you wont concede to anything (not even blindingly obvious lies that you repeat on behalf of Thomson and the original Fairfax case) when it has a convenient court case to shield you.

  347. Meta permalink
    February 21, 2013 12:02 pm

    (Why bother with adversarial systems, even multiple-stakeholder systems with dynamic, plural powers and influences and perspectives, when unilateral edicts and one-sided outcomes naturally are to be preferred: kangaroo courts/lynch mobs; one-party politics/states;unassailable congruences of hypotheses and conclusions; a happy, certain place where everythings ‘just are’…until complexity/reality/emergence/specificity impinge (generally to be forgotten/ignored). Eg, why are there court cases and verdicts? Are such clues that processes, contexts, and contests betwixt, between and among entities exist? What do the verities of definitive findings by the FWA being civilly tested, or being adjourned,and/or criminal ‘cases’ on largely ‘same matters’ presuppose about the finality(ies) of stuffs, and judgements about theose stuffs aforehand? Hands up anyone who accurately predicted that Craig would be charged with a count of embezzling ice-cream by the Victorian constabulary; did he, in fact, do that; with what significance; with what penalty, if any?)

  348. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 21, 2013 12:03 pm

    TB, Whitlam did not want Vietnamese refugees because (being anti-communist) they would be likely to vote against Labor. Hence his reference to Balts, another refugee group who didn’t vote Labor.

    If you are interested there is some discussion of it here

  349. Tom R permalink
    February 21, 2013 12:29 pm

    you wont concede to anything

    2008 😆

    Looks like he’s actually using Combet’s own Climate Department website as it shows the claim of a Carbon Tax link for any fall as just bullshit when compared to previous years.

    https://thedailytrash.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/new-poll-spells-certain-election-annihilation-for-julia-giddard/#comment-16462

  350. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 12:47 pm

    I’m still waiting for the tonnages.

    Nearest thousand is OK

    Oh thats right………….I forgot…………..its not measurable………..LOL

    How convenient to your argument whatever it was

  351. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 1:00 pm

    Oh

    And while you are fetching stuff TomR please answer the question that you always refuse to answer.

    How are you going to pay for the recurent spending once the carbon tax morphs into a market price ETS.

    Keeping in mind the current price is $23 pt but the market price is likely to be $6

    Where will the extra revenue come from. So far all you have offered is slashing the compensation programs which unless you are a complete idiot will just leave pensioners etc with a slashed pension but high electricity costs.

    So when do you intend answering that question.

    Or are you going to run away for a few days …………………….again !

  352. Tom R permalink
    February 21, 2013 1:02 pm

    How convenient to your argument whatever it was

    From your posts, it appears that you forgot that from the moment you started crapping on about hunt using a drop 2008 to try and justify that he said there had been no drop in emissions since the Carbon Price (irrespective of the cause of that drop)

    It seemed strange at the time that you would use (alleged) graphs of some previous drop to validate that it isn’t happening now(?), but, in light of this above revelation of your lack of short term memory, it is I guess justifiable 😉

    Even an argument that just because it happened before means that it can’t be attributed to the Carbon Price now falls very flat when you take into account the reasons for the drop then, coupled with the lack of those forces now, coupled with the experts own admissions in the area. But of course, that wasn’t argument. The argument was hunt had said wtte ‘no drop in emissions since the introduction of the Carbon Price’ Not that those drops can be argued away because of what happened in 2008.

    It was irrelevant to his ‘argument’ (such that it was), yet you became obsessed with it.

  353. Tom R permalink
    February 21, 2013 1:03 pm

    How are you going to pay for the recurent spending once the carbon tax morphs into a market price ETS.

    I’m not paying for it, and the answer was addressed above.

    Sorry, forgot about your short term memory loss thing 😉

  354. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 1:41 pm

    “I’m not paying for it, and the answer was addressed above.”

    Sorry, forgot about your lack of answers thing

    LOL

  355. Tom R permalink
    February 21, 2013 1:59 pm

    😯

  356. el gordo permalink
    February 21, 2013 2:55 pm

    As far as I can see there will be no carbon tax or ets and I was wondering how this will effect the accountants?

  357. Tom R permalink
    February 21, 2013 3:02 pm

    Only half right grodo

    There will be no Carbon Tax, but there currently is, and will be (no matter what abbott says (I note he hasn’t written it down) an ETS. 😉

  358. Ol' Sancty permalink
    February 21, 2013 3:06 pm

    When did Greg Hunt say there had been no drop in emissions anyway?

  359. Tom R permalink
    February 21, 2013 3:18 pm

    When did Greg Hunt say there had been no drop in emissions anyway?

    On QandA the other night

    Meanwhile Gillards got Baillieu in her sites big time

    http://media.mytalk.com.au/3aw/audio/210213_baillieuletter.pdf

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-21/cut-out-the-politics-on-health-gillard/4532178

  360. el gordo permalink
    February 21, 2013 3:23 pm

    So tabits direct action plan is really an ets?

    It seems like an awful waste of money … just getting things into perspective.

    http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/library/chart-graph/global-deaths-year-due-various-causes-early-2000s

  361. TB Queensland permalink
    February 21, 2013 3:27 pm

    If you are interested there is some discussion of it here

    Thanks, sp, I’d done some research after your “outburst” …

    … the link helps to put it into perspective … I’ve only skimmed it at this stage get back to it though …

    I must say it brought back some memories … in context though the VN War ended in 1972 … the article is discussing events FIVE years on …

    You may have seen that I note that that refugees always follow the ADF’s overseas deployments … the “tradition” continues …

  362. Tom R permalink
    February 21, 2013 3:27 pm

    <i.So tabits direct action plan is really an ets?

    Only you could come to that conclusion grodo

    And perhaps 2d, for a moment anyway, before another brainfart pushes that one out.

  363. TB Queensland permalink
    February 21, 2013 3:28 pm

    I see GLOBAL WARMING has highjacked another thread … 🙄

  364. el gordo permalink
    February 21, 2013 3:33 pm

    What global warming?

  365. TB Queensland permalink
    February 21, 2013 3:33 pm

    Ooops CLIMATE CHANGE …

  366. el gordo permalink
    February 21, 2013 3:50 pm

    There will be a huge shakeup after Abbott takes over … the Department of Climate Change is doomed for a start.

  367. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 3:55 pm

    “And perhaps 2d, for a moment anyway”

    So TomR what exactly is wrong with Direct Action since your lying grub of a PM practices it via the $10B Clean Energy Fund ?

  368. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 4:11 pm

    “On QandA the other night”

    Really………………….?

    Perhaps you’d like to find it because I’ve been through the transcript twice and can find no sign of Greg Hunt saying any such thing.

    Perhaps there was some traffic noise in the studio do you think ?

    Here………….go and fetch it for us all to see

    http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s3687812.htm

  369. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 4:22 pm

    ASX down 2.3% at the close and that deals me into a world of pain today. That’s a big “correction”

    Find me an open window

  370. Tom R permalink
    February 21, 2013 4:22 pm

    .go and fetch it for us all to see

    OK 😉

    What is actually going to reduce emissions and our debate in Australia and this is where I would absolutely disagree with Lawrence, is about the fact that our emissions go up, not down, under the carbon tax.

    ..

    So the big thing about the carbon tax is it doesn’t actually reduce emissions. Our emissions go up, not down

    😉

    So TomR what exactly is wrong with Direct Action

    Direct Action is fine, and anything to reduce emissions is good, which, as you admit, this Government already does (and far more than just the Clean Energy Fund)

    It is not, however, suitable as a replacement for an ETS. It cannot achieve what the ETS HAS on the same scale, with such a minimal impact (well, Whyalla thinks it is, anyway)

  371. el gordo permalink
    February 21, 2013 4:28 pm

    TONY JONES: By the way, climate change for science classes?

    GREG HUNT: Of course.

    TONY JONES: Yep. Okay. Fine. Cindy Pan?

    GREG HUNT: That was a sort of a passingly cheap shot, Tony.

  372. Tom R permalink
    February 21, 2013 4:37 pm

    Greg hunt couldn’t stop at one lie though 😉

    WILLIAM FIEDLER: If successful in the next election, the Coalition has a stated commitment to a three year direct action plan to reduce carbon emissions. Will the Coalition rule out ever moving to some form of emission scheme?

    GREG HUNT: Yes. I don’t see it’s every likely to happen. I don’t see this is what’s happening broadly. I think that when you look around the world, there are radically different approaches and when you look at the United States I know that the President just gave a State of the Union address. The real focus of that was the alternative systems that the United States would put in place. Canada has just had an election where they rejected a carbon tax. China is not going anywhere near this.

    http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s3687812.htm

  373. el gordo permalink
    February 21, 2013 5:06 pm

    ‘Greg hunt couldn’t stop at one lie though’

    Climate Change will continue being discussed in science classes, that’s an indisputable fact.

    And China isn’t looking at going the whole hog on a tax.

  374. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 5:22 pm

    “So 2d, are ready to admit that emissions (from power production) have fallen since the introduction of the carbon price, and that hunt is FOS and lied on national television?

    I mean, that was my claim,”

    Looks like you are the one caught out lying. Perhaps you’d like to quote him in full

    “…………You are ultimately a rational person, electricity is an essential service, therefore it’s barely affected in its demand by price rises. What does that mean? It means that we go from 560 million tonnes of emissions in Australia in 2010 to 637 million tonnes. So the big thing about the carbon tax is it doesn’t actually reduce emissions. Our emissions go up, not down. ”

    Just as I have said. You cannot link the Carbon Tax directly to a drop in emissions. Any number of factors can be responsible AS THEY WERE IN much larger numbers in 2007 and 2008.

    FFS you cant even produce the tonnages

  375. TB Queensland permalink
    February 21, 2013 5:42 pm

    As of today our home has LED light globes and tubes (yep you can get tubes now) in every socket except two (they don’t yet have an alternative to circular flouros) …

    … coupled with our 22 solar panels (chuffing out enough last qarter to give The Minister and me – $392 in our pocket with no bill to pay) … 5000lts of fresh drinking water in our stainless steel tank … and a range of fruit trees, tomato plants, herbs … you get the picture …

    Climate change begins at home …

  376. Ol' Sancty permalink
    February 21, 2013 5:44 pm

    Oh, THAT. TomR, you really need to look further. Hunt was referencing the ALP’s projections as to emissions. Not actual emissions over the last 6 months.

  377. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 5:54 pm

    Yes

    TomR serves up comments with generous servings of deception for free

  378. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 6:00 pm

    “As of today our home has LED light globes and tubes……”

    Actually I bought a solar LED spot light from Bunnings a few months ago (not cheap at $90) as I didn’t want to spend bigger $$$$ on a sparky to connect up what is essentially a lower backgarden light (not used much at night)

    Its fantastically bright with something like 80 tiny LEDs making it up.

  379. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 21, 2013 6:07 pm

    “$392 in our pocket”

    Yep. Middle class welfare at its worst – those that can afford solar panels get subsidised by those of us who can’t.

  380. February 21, 2013 6:09 pm

    Hunt was referencing the ALP’s projections as to emissions.

    And presenting it as what is actually occuring, even though that isn’t the case.

    So the big thing about the carbon tax is it doesn’t actually reduce emissions. Our emissions go up, not down

    Now, he didn’t say this was a projection, he said this was the outcome.

    You cannot link the Carbon Tax directly to a drop in emissions

    I don’t have to, because his statement is clear, and he said it twice

    What is actually going to reduce emissions and our debate in Australia and this is where I would absolutely disagree with Lawrence, is about the fact that our emissions go up, not down, under the carbon tax.

    Not much deceptive there, he is very clear about what he is trying to say. “the fact that our emissions go up, not down, under the carbon tax.”

  381. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    February 21, 2013 6:18 pm

    Oh Yes I see the corelationship now………………..

    ……………….just like Adolf Hitler was an amateur artist ……………….so all amateur artists are therefore fanatical Nazis.

    Yes I see how that makes sense to you.

    Stoopid me for not seeing it as well

  382. February 21, 2013 6:23 pm

    Stoopid me for not seeing it as well

    Finally, sense 🙂

  383. February 21, 2013 6:26 pm

    Although what Nazis have to do with it??

    But, baby steps

  384. February 21, 2013 6:32 pm

    “But, baby steps..”

    Yes, it helps around here sometimes… 🙂

  385. el gordo permalink
    February 21, 2013 6:33 pm

    I agree with splatter, middle class welfare does not make sense.

    Stop the Green Machine.

  386. TB Queensland permalink
    February 21, 2013 7:11 pm

    Yep. Middle class welfare at its worst – those that can afford solar panels get subsidised by those of us who can’t.

    But, but I’m a lefty Communist! Make yer fkn mind up …

    And you reckon I’m grumpy … lol …

    This Middle Classer went to work a 14.5 got married with $300 in the bank and a baby on the way at the ripe old age of 21 … and graduated at 45 …

    Life really is fkn hard in Oz …

  387. February 21, 2013 7:28 pm

    middle class welfare does not make sense.

    I AGREE!

    We should only have upper class welfare 🙂

  388. el gordo permalink
    February 21, 2013 7:37 pm

    The working poor will cast their vote against middle class welfare, when Mr Abbott points out the inequality in our system.

  389. February 21, 2013 7:43 pm

    when Mr Abbott points out the inequality in our system.

    I wonder who’ll they’ll vote for when it is pointed out that abbott is going to tax them after their first $6,000 rather than from after their first $18,000 as it is under Labor? An extra $12,000 being taxed every year if you vote for the libs

    I reckon it’ll be a tough decision 😉

  390. el gordo permalink
    February 21, 2013 8:02 pm

    ‘I reckon it’ll be a tough decision’

    Indeed, a robust election is coming.

  391. Evil Walrus permalink
    February 21, 2013 10:07 pm

    Considering the day I had on the ASX I could be at Centrelink soon

    😉

  392. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 22, 2013 10:18 am

    “but I’m a lefty Communist!”

    No contradiction there. They are the biggest leaches. Soon, comrade, you will be demanding the keys your own state funded dacha! 🙂

  393. TB Queensland permalink
    February 22, 2013 1:18 pm

    They are the biggest leaches

    More insults with little knowledge … you lot just make stuff up … the lurkers must piss themselves laughing at you lurching from left to right … I reckon they come back each day just to see what you’ve concocted next …

    Make your mind up – I’m a middle class – ie bourgeoisie – or a Communist …

    Did I tell you I ran my own business for 16 years … 😆

  394. TB Queensland permalink
    February 22, 2013 1:27 pm

    Oooops! They are the biggest leaches … I hope you meant “leeches” …

    … “leach” may sound similar and actually have a similar meaning but its out of context – a bit like Paul Howes last night and his “underminding”??? … said it twice too just to confirm he’s an ignorant Dickwit® …

    Typos are acceptable but the “e” and the “a” on the keyboard indicate poor spelling … or misunderstanding or both … 🙂

    NYC

  395. February 22, 2013 5:28 pm

    Dragonista`s also doing the coffee-2 thing,
    http://ausvotes2013.com/2013/02/20/a-brief-theory-of-why-rudd-might-be-telling-the-truth/

    but don`t waste ya time gordo, the troll-trap is `on`

  396. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 22, 2013 5:50 pm

    “More insults with little knowledge

    Wasn’t directed at you! I’ve been here long enough to know you are not a commo, and not really a lefty – too much independent thought for that. The point I was making is that these days being far left doesn’t mean a working class lifestyle. Idiot left views are far more likely to be aired in upper class soirees these days.

    And “leaches/leeches” is poor spelling. As much as I try, there is usually some stuff-up or t’other in my comments. But I’m not going to let that stop me.

  397. toiletcatchingupwithblinkeredlunacy permalink
    February 22, 2013 6:06 pm

    These days, both the left & the right battle over push button issues to manipulate the working class.

  398. February 22, 2013 6:33 pm

    ” left & the right battle over push button issues to manipulate “
    as l`ve said before dunny, teabag and teabag-lite

  399. toiletcatchingupwithblinkeredlunacy permalink
    February 22, 2013 6:41 pm

    Indeed.

    Because if they crap on about issues which don’t directly affect the working class as a majority, but do push their moral outrage buttons, then it deflects scrutiny away from the actual shit that the majors are pushing through under our noses.

    Issues like asylum seekers, abortion & gay marriage are great for lighting outrage in the population (and [except for abortion, imo…which is noone’s business except the prospective parents] each are important to the minorities involved in them) …but they simply don’t impact the average person in any meaningful way. They are used as gigantic distractions to try & shift votes & focus the electorate in directions other than their own interests.

  400. February 22, 2013 6:51 pm

    Yes, exactly Dunny, but please realize, the pollies couldn`t get away with this, if the embedded media DID their job. (what l screech about all the time)
    .
    lnstead, we are stuck with zombie-media trying to peddle the zombie-party into power, and is basically stuffing the `whole-point` of so-called democracy.

  401. el gordo permalink
    February 22, 2013 7:15 pm

    ‘Make your mind up – I’m a middle class – ie bourgeoisie – or a Communist …

    ‘Did I tell you I ran my own business for 16 years … ‘

    Petite bourgeoisie.

  402. el gordo permalink
    February 22, 2013 7:30 pm

    ‘Instead, we are stuck with zombie-media trying to peddle the zombie-party into power, and is basically stuffing the `whole-point` of so-called democracy.’

    There is no unified conspiracy, Fairfax leans to the left and Murdoch to the right. Both stables chase after stories on political corruption and they are good at it.

    Our democracy is safe.

  403. TB Queensland permalink
    February 22, 2013 8:01 pm

    sp, I did post earlier but it hasn’t “shown” … I must be banned!

    I simply said “apology” accepted …

    FYI, generally, protocol is, that if you quote me its “aimed” at me … but thanks for the acknowledgements … appreciated that you get my stance in all this BS …

  404. TB Queensland permalink
    February 22, 2013 8:06 pm

    Petite bourgeoisie.

    I prefer …

    réussi bourgeoisie ….

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Our democracy is safe

    Our democracy has been usurped … by THe Robber Barons … no petite bourgeoisie there …

  405. el gordo permalink
    February 22, 2013 8:52 pm

    The multinationals pay their taxes, they are not laise faire robber barons.

  406. el gordo permalink
    February 22, 2013 9:01 pm

    The bourgeoisie deserve what they have achieved throughout their lives and their success is a big plus for the free enterprise system. It really works.

  407. el gordo permalink
    February 22, 2013 10:15 pm

    “Liberal democracy is a China shop. It’s delicate. And the Greens are a giant, steaming bull running through it like mad little undergraduate children waving flags and preaching revolution.”

    Joe Hilderbrand

  408. February 22, 2013 10:44 pm

    ” The multinationals pay their taxes, “
    in tax-havens you mindless git. Places like Leichtenstein that only collect tax (1%) on money transferred in or out. Under duel taxation treaties, they pay no/little tax here. lf the only tax you or your kids/grandkids ever paid was gst or sales-tax, you would still pay a much higher %rate than they ever will.
    ” big plus for the free enterprise system. It really works.”
    for the mega-rich. See how stupid your teabag comments are.?

  409. el gordo permalink
    February 22, 2013 11:00 pm

    We have corruption in all political systems, its human nature.

    A liberal democracy, with justice and free enterprise economics, still offers the best opportunity to lift people out of poverty.

  410. February 22, 2013 11:10 pm

    ” Our democracy is safe. “
    `whole-point` of so-called democracy is,
    all voters participate in their governance in an INFORMED manner.
    That has not been happening for some years now.
    Instead, we are stuck with zombie-media trying to peddle the zombie-party into power, and is basically stuffing the `whole-point` of so-called democracy.
    .
    Teabags mindlessly chanting for a teabag govt, that would remove, pensions, education and health from them if a teabag govt got half a chance to.

  411. February 22, 2013 11:18 pm

    Quoting the young Hildebrand fellow is quite funny too, he`s been trying to escape Limited-News for years now, he keeps trying to seek refugee status at my ABC.

  412. Evil Walrus permalink
    February 22, 2013 11:42 pm

    So 730. You made the claim.

    The accounts of BHPB are very simple if you care to look at them. They even break things down by geographic segments for you.

    Where did they not pay tax or the correct rate ?

    And you can easily get the accounts online.

    And don’t give me the crap that foreigners get the dividends. Just look at the dividend yield . It pathetic at about 4%. NAB pays better with no risk.

    Actually have a look at Origin Energy and the percent they pay in tax.

    You might discover something.

    That being……..

    You are full of shit as usual

  413. Evil Walrus permalink
    February 22, 2013 11:53 pm

    ” The multinationals pay their taxes, “

    “…… lf the only tax you or your kids/grandkids ever paid was gst or sales-tax, you would still pay a much higher %rate than they ever will.
    … … See how stupid your teabag comments are”

    Oh I have missed you 730. Especially when you step into my area of the “jungle” of tax law,

    Please point out where sales tax exists in Australia.

    And please dispense with the pretence that you know anything about international tax treaties and how the tax credit system works.

    Any evasion is far simpler than the concocted crap you come up with.

    It’s simple .

    But reb would nod off very quickly and ban me if I told you

  414. Evil Walrus permalink
    February 22, 2013 11:57 pm

    I’ll wait here for you to post where you pay sales tax in oZthese days ?

    Tell me so I can report them to the ATO.

  415. Evil Walrus permalink
    February 23, 2013 12:51 am

    Come on 730 I know how you will try and answer my question.

    I think it will have a G and an A in it

    I’m waiting for a conference call

    So I’ll be here for 45 mins

  416. Evil Walrus permalink
    February 23, 2013 12:54 am

    Actually you might bring up Starbucks .

  417. February 23, 2013 1:04 am

    ” Actually you might bring up Starbucks ”
    yep, add google, amazon, vodafone, apple, microsoft..
    not just online stuff, branded stores, nike, mcdonalds,
    all pay huge chunks of their profit as `license-fees` (bullshit) huh.?

  418. February 23, 2013 1:06 am

    similar bullshit goes on here, that uk tax-payers are bitch`in about

  419. el gordo permalink
    February 23, 2013 7:35 am

    My money is on the accountant to win this discussion and with an east coast low off Sydney there’s a better than even chance 730 will be routed by lunch time.

  420. el gordo permalink
    February 23, 2013 9:23 am

    Middle class welfare up for review and Don is right about the young unemployed.

    ‘BUSINESS community elder Don Argus has warned that the growth in politically popular welfare spending is unsustainable and youth unemployment is one of the greatest economic challenges confronting Australia.

    ‘In a speech to be given in Melbourne today and published exclusively in The Weekend Australian, the former BHP Billiton chairman and National Australia Bank chief executive calls for a national discussion about welfare spending, warning that the pension and health costs of an ageing population will add to the structural pressure on the federal budget.’

    Annabel Hepworth in the Oz

  421. el gordo permalink
    February 23, 2013 12:46 pm

    ‘By that they mean the obvious: Gillard goes, and really goes – agreeing not to recontest at the election; and Wayne Swan too. ”The consequences are there. Julia can’t stay. Wayne can’t stay,” insists one Rudd man. Labor would also likely lose its Senate leader: it’s hard to imagine the Communications Minister, Stephen Conroy, serving in a Rudd ministry given the extent of their mutual antipathy. Possibly there would be other departures and, of course, elevations. Chris Bowen is said to have been promised Treasury if Rudd returns. Presumably the new broom philosophy would be applied liberally.’

    Kath Murphy

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/she-gets-knocked-down-20130222-2ewyr.html#ixzz2LgMpkaMh

  422. February 23, 2013 1:53 pm

    ” Don Argus has warned that the growth in politically popular welfare spending is unsustainable and youth unemployment “
    Of course it is gordo. Teabags have sent so many of the low-skilled jobs, previously known as ENTRY-LEVEL jobs to China. Teabags have also failed to train, and pay properly to retain workforce too. Teabags can squarely blame their own industry/employer for this stuff, it has been teabag-biz getting their own way on this, and rapidly aiding the creation of the `welfare-state` that teabags grizzle about. What is Teabag-biz doing to train new gen of workforce.? Zip, they bleat for visas to import slaves.

  423. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 23, 2013 2:36 pm

    Teabags can squarely blame their own industry/employer for this stuff, it has been teabag-biz getting their own way on this, and rapidly aiding the creation of the `welfare-state` that teabags grizzle about. What is Teabag-biz doing to train new gen of workforce.? Zip, they bleat for visas to import slaves.

    Exactly, 730. Decades of pushing all expenses of employment onto government or the individual. Talk about huge subsidisation of industry. Now we need to have special taxpayer funded economic zones and the importation of foreign labour [to drive down aussie wages] for even more profiteering.

    Personal employment and education debt for our youth or their family just to get jobs [on pathetic youth wages] while a few at the top are pulling in massive profits as a benefit of the taxes paid by our poorest. There’s some real wrong thinking if people like el gordo think this is even equitable, fair or justified. Didn’t marius just walk away with $75 mil? The people being sacrificed are our our most vulnerable, while the ‘aspirationals’ are heavily taxpayer funded so they can add another reno house to their negative gearing portfolio.

    I was at work, having a meal break last night and saw on telly [think it could have been today tonight] a story where australian pensioners have taken to living in bali because they can have a very good lifestyle there on the pension, “meals here only cost $2.50” and I still can’t quite understand why I felt so conflicted about that story.

  424. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 23, 2013 2:41 pm

    We have corruption in all political systems, its human nature

    Glib and meaningless BS statements like that anger me. Just accept a corrupted system, don’t strive for better??

    The system is meant to catch and jail the corruption aspect of ‘human nature’

  425. February 23, 2013 3:31 pm

    ” There’s some real wrong thinking if people like el gordo think this is even equitable, fair or justified. “
    Actually armchair, l suspect our friend is one of those `paid-to-comment` teabags. lf you notice, they largely drop teabag `talking-points` but rarely engage in defending the their `talking-point`. They will scurry back with incoherent statements from time to time, usually copy/paste from bolt-blog or some other `handbook` on the web. lf you scroll up a bit, you will notice last night`s `conference-call` with walrus suddenly dropped out. 🙂

  426. el gordo permalink
    February 23, 2013 3:50 pm

    In China they shoot corrupt officials in the back of the head, kneeling side by side in front of an open ditch.

    Australians don’t take it so seriously, Thompson will probably get a six months good behaviour bond.

  427. el gordo permalink
    February 23, 2013 3:54 pm

    ‘incoherent statements’

    Hmmm….

  428. TB Queensland permalink
    February 23, 2013 7:26 pm

    A liberal democracy, with justice and free enterprise economics, still offers the best opportunity to lift people out of poverty.

    What a crock of shite! And I thought you ran a small business and were complaining about the government … you flick and fly as the wind blows, egg … I was in business from 1992 to 2008 (although I actually retired in 2005)

    1992 was in the middle of a recession but business was good for us until 1997 … and from six figures we nosedived to $20000 … (we did nothing wrong – I recently went through my diary for 1997 … and I did what I should have done) …

    However, every five years my business had to have an audit (in our case about every two years – as we included more quals. we had to have another “paid” audit) … not one auditor was over 25 years old ,,, had done no training/assessment and never owned a business … AND I paid an enormous amount of tax and fees to earn my income … NO government is gentle on taxing small business – as you should know …

    liberal democracy my arse …

  429. el gordo permalink
    February 23, 2013 7:35 pm

    ‘What a crock of shite!’

    I have world vision … a liberal democracy, free market economics and a humane justice system is all we can hope for.

  430. February 23, 2013 7:36 pm

    yes TB, like regular workers you got hit so the `off-shore` lot could pay zip

  431. TB Queensland permalink
    February 23, 2013 7:53 pm

    I have world vision … a liberal democracy, free market economics and a humane justice system is all we can hope for.

    egg, some advice … while I have “visions of the future” like you … unlike you I became a pragmatist … and retired early …

    By the time your vision (one we share BTW) is a reality the world will either be destroyed or 2-300 years in the future … care for you and yours …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    703, in tune as usual! 🙂

  432. el gordo permalink
    February 23, 2013 8:00 pm

    China offers the best example of what the free market can create, its the greatest economic revolution in history.

    The first stage is coming to an end and over the next decade the second stage of developing a large middle class will be accomplished. Here is a glimpse of how this is shaping up.

    http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2013-02/23/content_16250592.htm

    By 2020 its possible the Chinese might have a moon colony and a joint venture with the US on sending people to Mars. Its what powerful nations do when they stop fighting each other.

    Their justice system leaves a lot to be desired, but hopefully over time that will change for the better. There is no sign that China will become a liberal democracy anytime soon.

  433. February 23, 2013 8:16 pm

    ” Chinese might have a moon colony and a joint venture with the US on sending people to Mars. “
    You really need to reduce your tea-guzzling gordo. The yanks won`t be spending up big on space for quite a while. They now have `out-sourced` their rides to space-station to *ussr. Shuttle is retired. No replacement on the drawing board.
    .
    China won`t be a democracy in our lifetime either Mr-Delusion.

  434. TB Queensland permalink
    February 23, 2013 8:20 pm

    Its what powerful nations do when they stop fighting each other.

    Absolutely – and you are talking about the “oldest” modern nation today …

    Their justice system leaves a lot to be desired, but hopefully over time that will change for the better.

    I almost agreed … but maybewe could learn from their justice system too …

    There is no sign that China will become a liberal democracy anytime soon.

    If you study the Chinese system of government you will find that is far more “liberal” thatn ours in that individuals represent their local area rather than the Party … funny that, hey?

  435. TB Queensland permalink
    February 23, 2013 8:21 pm

    073 … not always in tune then 🙂 … as it should be my friend ..

  436. February 23, 2013 8:26 pm

    “If you study the Chinese system of government you will find that is far more “liberal” thatn ours in that individuals represent their local area rather than the Party … funny that, hey?”

    Totally agree…!

    China may not be a democracy but have you noticed the dramatic upsurge in mainland Chinese buying up large in Australia….?

  437. February 23, 2013 8:29 pm

    ? in what way TB, you didn`t ref anything ?

  438. February 23, 2013 8:33 pm

    reb, China is buying up assets everywhere,
    land, forests, mines, farms, biz, ..

  439. el gordo permalink
    February 23, 2013 8:38 pm

    ‘…more “liberal” thatn ours in that individuals represent their local area rather than the Party … funny that, hey?’

    Similar to what Sancty was hinting at the other day, but honestly they can be just as corrupt.

  440. February 23, 2013 8:42 pm

    Indeed 730…

    A friend of mine who’s based in KL was telling me the other night how a mainland Chinese client of hers sent her on a mission to Australia buy a vineyard.

    Money was no object, the only spec was to buy one that produced “red wine.”

    The challenge (thankfully) proved more difficult than her client imagined.

    Boutique wine producers don’t really take kindly to offshore buyers lobbing in and saying “name your price..”

  441. February 23, 2013 8:58 pm

    ” The challenge (thankfully) proved more difficult than her client imagined. “
    reb, my bet is, if she finds 3, 4, or 5 vineyards up for sale, her client will take the lot.

  442. February 23, 2013 9:00 pm

    l know, l`m a dreadful cynic .. 🙂

  443. February 23, 2013 9:04 pm

    When the vineyard owners found out that they only requirement was that they produced “red wine” they told her to fuck off (in slightly more polite terms)…

    But it goes to show how cashed up the mainland Chinese are, and basically they have nothing to spend their money on back home..

    We need to build more casinos I reckon…!

  444. February 23, 2013 9:36 pm

    l think they have plenty of access to casinos in asia reb,
    from memory, l think China is pretty short of certain types of farmland and have to import a lot of food basics. l think we do pretty well out of rice, meat, seafood, vegies

  445. el gordo permalink
    February 23, 2013 10:44 pm

    ‘The yanks won`t be spending up big on space for quite a while.’

    The US has the know how and the Chinese have the money.

  446. Evil Walrus permalink
    February 23, 2013 11:18 pm

    Sorry eg I could not get here by lunchtime.

    730 has subtly changed the subject now from tax havens to transfer pricing within a restaurant/service industry and has now switched from tax havens to transfer pricing.

    That’s a lot different to a physical export industry.

    As I said 730 you are full of it.

    Have you checked the BHPBilliton AR yet ?

    Or RIO ……………….. or Origin….?

    You made the claim and now you own the claim so now prove it.

    Still waiting for you to tip me off about who is charging you sales tax by the way ?

    LOL

  447. Evil Walrus permalink
    February 23, 2013 11:25 pm

    Anyway we went and saw Lincoln at Gold Class today. I won’t go any other way.

    Daniel Day Lewis has put in a performance I doubt I’ll ever see again. Sally Field was just brilliant and Tommy Lee Jones was a truly truly rough and tumble congressman.

    A superb movie.

    I do recommend that before you go you do read a little about the 13th Amendment as there are quite a few characters in and out.

    Plus we talk about Jobs for the Boys.

    Wait to you see what Abe had to do.

    Fantastic movie.

  448. el gordo permalink
    February 24, 2013 12:50 am

    ‘As I said 730 you are full of it.’

    Economics is not his strength…. conspiracy theories involving the media is more his style.

  449. el gordo permalink
    February 24, 2013 9:36 am

    The Chinese system of law is flawed and certainly open to abuse where ‘virtually all trials are scheduled to follow the confession of the accused. The overwhelming majority of those brought to court have already confessed. Mr Bo, it appears, is not yet ready to comply, not ready to read from someone else’s script – so cannot be trusted to go to trial.’

  450. TB Queensland permalink
    February 24, 2013 10:36 am

    Fantastic movie.

    Thoroughly agree … Wally … the script is brilliant!

    And reasonably accurate historically … I also agree that if you aren’t at least aware of the American Constitution you should read a summary …

    Tommy Lee Jones was great … as was his housekeeper 😉 …

    … nice twist to get the Amendment proposal passed too … clever stuff – politics at its “best” (worst?) …

    Some interesting monologues from Day Lewis … we watched at home with a Moet & Chandon (we too, only go to Gold Class but not on locally) …

  451. February 24, 2013 1:00 pm

    ” The US has the know how and the Chinese have the money.”
    Mr-Delusion, why you think either China or India won`t have the `know-how` shows your ignorance yet again. Both hold the 1 and 2 rank for producing scientists, engineers and doctors per year, in most fields. ln some fields, the top ranked produce more than the rest of world combined.

  452. February 24, 2013 1:17 pm

    ” who is charging you sales tax by the way ?”
    dopey walrus,
    are you not part of the `red-wine` club discussions here.?
    Alcohol does not just cop gst, is there not an alcohol-levy or alcohol-duty or some other `sales-tax` applied to it. l used `sales-tax` as the generic-tax, to separate it from `profit-tax` and `income-tax` in the discussion.

    other goods also cop special `sales-tax` over and above gst, Petrol, Diesel, LPG, Tobacco, Alcohol

    by all means, correct these `micro-details` if you wish

  453. February 24, 2013 1:30 pm

    As I said gordo`s a shill, and full of shit.

    Common Sense is not his strength _ conspiracy theories involving carbon-dioxide is more his style.

  454. February 24, 2013 1:43 pm

    WRONG. l never discussed bhp/bill dopey

  455. February 24, 2013 1:51 pm

    WRONG. you also don`t comprehend `context`. ln my reply to gordo l transitioned across his life-time (+kids/grandkids) which means gst and/or its precursor `sales-tax`.

  456. el gordo permalink
    February 24, 2013 2:37 pm

    ‘…..conspiracy theories involving carbon-dioxide is more his style.’

    Its not an organised conspiracy, this verbal abuse of a harmless trace gas, but that’s another story.

  457. el gordo permalink
    February 24, 2013 3:38 pm

    ‘why you think either China or India won`t have the `know-how`

    The US has the experience and China will piggy back, the yanks are greatly indebted to them.

  458. TB Queensland permalink
    February 24, 2013 4:46 pm

    The US has the experience and China will piggy back, the yanks are greatly indebted to them.

    Ever hear of a bloke called Deming? He was an American expert consultant in productivity/management in the sixties that the “experienced” USA experst virtually dismissed, when he discussed things like continuous improvement and quality control …

    Deming turned to Japan … and revolutionised the car production industry when the Japanese adopted his principals in product QC, JIT, CI, industrial democracy …

    Later, from his home in Washington, D.C., Deming continued running his own consultancy business in the United States, largely unknown and unrecognized in his country of origin and work.

    Unfortunately the USA is now “owned” by China (owned in the vernacular of PC gamers) … in fact I suspect that China now owns the bloody globe in economic terms …

    The West is a decaying “empire” in many ways …

    .

  459. TB Queensland permalink
    February 24, 2013 4:48 pm

    The West is a decaying “empire” in many ways …

    And I might add … deny or ignore that, at your peril …

  460. February 24, 2013 5:26 pm

    ” The US has the experience and China will piggy back, “
    the yanks have experience in dismantling their own country, China won`t “piggy-back” that. ln all other fields, China is catching-up quickly or have passed already. DC stuck in gridlock.
    .
    ” the yanks are greatly indebted to them.”
    yanks owe them a shit-load of cash

  461. February 24, 2013 5:31 pm

    ” Its not an organised conspiracy, this verbal abuse of a harmless trace gas,” says the big-oil, big-coal shill.

  462. el gordo permalink
    February 24, 2013 6:38 pm

    The Chinese are building major infrastructure in the US and this is only the beginning of their close association.

    http://rt.com/usa/infrastructure-chinese-us-china-621/

    ———–

    ‘the big-oil, big-coal shill.’

    joker

  463. el gordo permalink
    February 24, 2013 7:13 pm

    ‘you flick and fly as the wind blows, egg …’

    Reporting from the front line…

    When the carbon tax was introduced the whole town fell into a slump, which became progressively worse over the summer. The small businesses had seen nothing like it, but there was no panic, no deflationary spiral into predatory pricing.

    So it came as a wonderful surprise when the PM announced an election date. Business picked up instantly all around and for that we thank her.

    But the bad taste won’t go away so Labor has lost them.

  464. el gordo permalink
    February 24, 2013 7:23 pm

    Monckton was in town on Friday night for a talk on his favourite subject. It was held at the RSL club and the police station is over the road, so the advocates for the other side didn’t make an appearance.

    Interestingly a DLP wannabe organised it… this is novel. I hasten to add that this town is very Catholic and maybe they think the PMs earlier association with Communists has tainted her. Don’t know.

    The DLP rejoining the fray is worth watching. There are strong Labor supporters who have had enough, but cannot bring themselves to vote for the other side.

  465. TB Queensland permalink
    February 24, 2013 7:26 pm

    Reporting from the front line…

    Yer actually reporting from yer own backyard, egg … 😆

    If you can interpret graphs have a look at these … if you can’t, I’m sure, Wally, can for you and even he must agree the nation is travelling along nicely, thank you – despite emotional baggage re the carbon tax … suffering is in yer mind … in business as in life – there is always a way … accept change and move with it … advance or die … ask, ToM – he’s a management expert …

    http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=9&sqi=2&ved=0CGwQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rba.gov.au%2Fchart-pack%2Fpdf%2Fchart-pack.pdf&ei=WMwpUbDWMo6amQXM_4BY&usg=AFQjCNEXb6ieFr6tNp7LlNQr58yHlnN9hg&sig2=JHQEOV48jokAWFFKqiu4ww

  466. TB Queensland permalink
    February 24, 2013 7:35 pm

    I hasten to add that this town is very Catholic

    That accounts for the doom and gloom …

    … and maybe they think the PMs earlier association with Communists has tainted her.

    What is this Communist crap with diehard right whingers … shall I start calling, the Liberal party the Australian Fascist Party … bunch of Nazis … and Tony Abbott, the Fuhrer, perhaps … FMD!

    Childish ignorance … don’t mind bringing the government to task for dumb decisions but the sly mudslinging really pisses me off …

  467. el gordo permalink
    February 24, 2013 8:30 pm

    The graphs are interesting TB, I noticed business confidence is down.

    So you’re saying the Communists in the SF had no influence over her thinking?

  468. Evil Walrus permalink
    February 24, 2013 10:24 pm

    Ok 730 based on the Sales Tax answer I can now rest easily with something about “molecules” of detail being incorrect.

    So you can’t detail personal experience with everything you claim is a personal experience.

    Ok

  469. Evil Walrus permalink
    February 24, 2013 10:33 pm

    “Some interesting monologues from Day Lewis … we watched at home with a Moet & Chandon (we too, only go to Gold Class but not on locally) …”

    Yes TB or should one say “yay ”

    It is truly a Moët Chandon movie.

    You knew that from the opening scene with the voice addressing the couple of soldiers from taken from behind and then the awful scene as he “disappeared down history’s corridor” so to speak.

    Fantastic !

  470. el gordo permalink
    February 25, 2013 7:08 am

    IN NSW the honeymoon is never ending thanks to Obeid et al.

    http://resources.news.com.au/files/2013/02/24/1226584/593775-130225-nsw-newspoll.pdf

  471. el gordo permalink
    February 25, 2013 7:18 am

    Henry Ergas in the Oz

    ‘To call the jobs plan half-baked would do an injustice to frozen food. It is a kebab of recycled nostrums, failed ideas and reheated announcements, dipped in a protectionist sauce and greased with favours to union mates. But the plan’s fundamental difficulty is that it cannot be taken seriously.’

  472. TB Queensland permalink
    February 25, 2013 9:03 am

    The graphs are interesting TB, I noticed business confidence is down.

    … the one graph that captures “human emotion” on what may happen, rather than factual history based on what has happened … explains your negative mindset perfickly … egg

    So you’re saying the Communists in the SF had no influence over her thinking?

    Like most of us, egg, we are influenced by many things … as time passes, some are altered, some change, some discarded, some re-inforced … my own study of Communism and Fascism, religion has influenced my life … so did leaving school early … a couple of years in the ADF … working in overalls under good and bad supervisors … having a business/life mentor … travelling Australia and then the world as part of my job … living and travelling in a third world country (where my son was kidnapped) … training/advising management teams of small to multinationals …

    My point being why did you “pick” on Julia Gillard and Communism? … answer … because you think it taints her image …

    According to many of your posts you should remember a man called, Dale Carnegie … he used to say, “I don’t like that person, I must get to know them better” … and actions do speak louder than words …

    Finally, when I studied management, I once read and believe – good managers make decisions … they will get approximately 70% of them correct – none of us has a perfect record …

    In Tony Abbott, beware what you wish for …

  473. el gordo permalink
    February 25, 2013 10:22 am

    ‘why did you “pick” on Julia Gillard and Communism? … answer … because you think it taints her image …’

    Old Catholics in my town remember Chifley well, the light on the hill. Its before your time young fella, he sent the troops into the mines because the Communists were planning a revolution.

    In my neck of the woods Labor is on the nose and Juliar has tainted the brand name.

    ———-
    ‘explains your negative mindset perfickly’

    I have been reporting what is happening on the ground, its news not opinion.

    What is extraordinary is the sensitivity of the markets, the PM announces the election and instantaneously the whole town pops out of recession.

  474. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 25, 2013 10:25 am

    “I don’t like that person, I must get to know them better”

    A few people here should try that with Mr Wilders.

    Indeed if you try it with the PM you’ll soon realise that she has abandoned whatever commie principles she formerly held.

  475. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 25, 2013 10:41 am

    Interestingly a DLP wannabe organised it… this is novel. I hasten to add that this town is very Catholic and maybe they think the PMs earlier association with Communists has tainted her. Don’t know.

    I’m sure you don’t…know,
    but don’t let that stop you from making shit up…again.

    Shill

  476. el gordo permalink
    February 25, 2013 11:03 am

    🙂

  477. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 25, 2013 11:06 am

    Old Catholics in my town remember Chifley well, the light on the hill. Its before your time young fella, he sent the troops into the mines because the Communists were planning a revolution.

    And the threat of communism is such a worrying concern these days isn’t it? Why hardly a day goes by without someone mentioning how much money aussie billionaires are getting from china! Gina is the problem, she is engaged in a giant conspiracy of communism. Must be why she wants to socialise her special tax and work zones. Quick, the people should be told!

    The strange thing is that there is no connection between communism and global warming, so wonder why these old timers are rallying to a long bygone cause and past?

    I suspect there’s been a lot of propagandising, fearmongering and lying going on, certainly if you propagandise there as much as you do here el gordo.

    The ‘lord’ is being paid to crawl all over australia and propagandise to as many as he can. now, who could possibly have a vested interest in denying global warming?

  478. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 25, 2013 11:13 am

    Catholicism is more sinister, pervasive and prevalent than any threat of communism.

    We should be very scared and worried about the global threat of catholicism!

  479. el gordo permalink
    February 25, 2013 12:22 pm

    ‘there is no connection between communism and global warming’

    When the Berlin Wall fell the German Reds joined the Greens and their brilliant strategy quickly saw them gain control of the organisation.

    Back in Australia similar things were happening and a lose consensus developed where the Reds joined the Greens and Labor through the SF.

    Julia wasn’t a typist, she was a real Secretary.

  480. el gordo permalink
    February 25, 2013 12:35 pm

    And they had only one thing on their mind …. world revolution and how to pull it off. Political animals in search of reason to be.

    ‘We should be very scared and worried about the global threat of catholicism!’

    We are safe in Australia, the people are pretty much a godless lot, except for the new immigrants from the Middle East who still worship the deity.

    Catholics may show their face locally with support for the DLP candidate …. have to wait and see. Chifley would have been amused.

  481. TB Queensland permalink
    February 25, 2013 1:04 pm

    What are you on … egg! You really should watch the movie “Flight” … you might “learn” something … what a load of old bollocks …

  482. el gordo permalink
    February 25, 2013 1:07 pm

    As you know Chifley was a Catholic and when he married a Presbyterian in her church, he was severely ostracised by some sections. When he went to Sunday mass he was forced to stand at the back of the church.

    Later when he became PM he would sit in the park over the road and passes by would join him to discuss stuff.

    The local people have strong memories of this great leader.

  483. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 25, 2013 1:10 pm

    Whereas once the Communist Party infiltrated the ALP and counted at least one minister in the Hawke government, now the Commos seem to focus on the Greens, a party so lunatic that the presence of a few old commos won’t really tarnish their rapidly diminishing reputation.

    Not so long ago the “intellectuals” of the era like Manning Clarke, Frank Hardy and Jessie Street were kissing Stalin’s arse. Soviet communism is now largely discredited, but the idiot mindset of the intellectual elite remains, but is now sprouting different idiocies. The common thread is that the intellectual elite believe that they are special. They hate the society they belong to and believe, in their anus-fingering arrogance, that they can make the world a better place if only we would give them the power to do so. The fact is that these pig-ignorant fools have nothing of value to contribute. Their ideas are as worthless as ever. They are economically illiterate and, more fundamentally, fail utterly to understand human nature.

    Instead of preaching violent revolution nowadays they take a slower road to paring back the basic freedoms which underpin our society. And instead of nationalising industry they are coming up with ever more ridiculous ways to destroy private enterprise, the most recent of which is to embed government lackeys in private companies. Now that they have pissed so much money against the wall they are using their idiot profligacy as an excuse to defund and destroy our defence force. Here is a clue wankers – the first job of government is to make sure we have a country.

    Fuck I am sick of these bastards destroying the country from within and then leaving it open to attack from our enemies without.

  484. el gordo permalink
    February 25, 2013 1:12 pm

    ‘what a load of old bollocks …’

    One of us is wrong, but I’ll leave that for my colleagues to decide.

  485. el gordo permalink
    February 25, 2013 1:14 pm

    I agree with splatter.

  486. TB Queensland permalink
    February 25, 2013 3:44 pm

    What a load of bollocks …

  487. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 25, 2013 3:49 pm

    Do you mean that gordo doesn’t really agree with me?

  488. el gordo permalink
    February 25, 2013 3:51 pm

    Popcorn … anyone for popcorn?

  489. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 25, 2013 5:02 pm

    Popcorn? I was trying to be facetious!

  490. TB Queensland permalink
    February 25, 2013 5:40 pm

    Nup, just a load of bollocks … you lot generally change the meaning of whatever I say anyway … 🙂

  491. el gordo permalink
    February 25, 2013 5:43 pm

    ‘Popcorn? I was trying to be facetious!’

    You succeeded, I was expecting a rumble.

  492. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 25, 2013 6:13 pm

    Gordo, people don’t always pick up on humour in blog comments. For example TB said “but I’m a lefty Communist!”. Now I figured he was being ironic, and in that spirit I made a remark about lefty communists being “leaches” and him being entitled to a state-funded dacha. And, would you believe it? Not only did he take offence, but he also pointed out my poor spelling. So here I am, shamed and misunderstood, always trying to sow peace and harmony here and being excoriated for my troubles.

    Besides, TB isn’t going to engage on the issue of commos in the ALP because he knows that there has been so many of those over the years, probably more even than the number of pedophiles who keep popping out of the ALP woodwork.

  493. el gordo permalink
    February 25, 2013 7:07 pm

    ‘Not only did he take offence, but he also pointed out my poor spelling.’

    TB is the master of irony, but sometimes even he can fail to read between the lines. Like ToM and me you don’t use smiley faces as a prop … which leaves us vulnerable.

    You would have heard of Poe’s Law?

  494. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 25, 2013 7:17 pm

    I just looked up Poe’s Law. I am definitely a victim of the condition of Smiley aversion syndrome – I have a phobia for them and I can’t remember their keystrokes. In fact I should qualify for disability benefits as my condition has caused me mental anguish and the existential pain that comes form alienation from my fellow humans! In any decent leftist society that should qualify m for a lifetime on welfare!

  495. el gordo permalink
    February 25, 2013 7:20 pm

    LOL

  496. TB Queensland permalink
    February 25, 2013 7:39 pm

    You succeeded, I was expecting a rumble. Hoping for a rumble …

    TB is the master of irony, but sometimes even he can fail to read between the lines.</i.

    Written communication is the hardest of the three methods we employ … no Non Verbals to actually "tell" you the emotions … NVC is 70% of our face to face comms … I delight in being able to communicate with someone who doesn't understand English …

    For example TB said “but I’m a lefty Communist!”. Now I figured he was being ironic

    One out of two aint bad – I was quoting you! “lefty Commie” … I’ve never been a Commie nor used the term … and I ‘was’ being “ironic” … the contrast amused me, a Middle class Commie, who as a business owner for 16 years was a capitalist … but … of course that’s exactly what we have in China today!

    Its always the extremes that annoy me … in Kapitalism, Communism any ism (including ageism, James Farnham!) … and true ignorance – I don’t mind mistakes but BS based on a little knowledge shits me … I know lots of things and been lucky to expoerience lots of things … but truly the more I know the less I know I know! Always happy to apologise and/or accept being proven wrong …

    One of the reasons I post here … strange as some may think … I learn … more than I challenge (other’s here call it being “grumpy” ’cause they’ve generally been caught out … 😆 ) … just a pity that people are reluctant (understandably) to provide some background to themselves … that is often part of the NVC …

    eg Have you ever wondered why I call – reb – sreb?

  497. TB Queensland permalink
    February 25, 2013 7:41 pm

    I have a phobia for them and I can’t remember their keystrokes

    You can always cut and paste … 🙂

    http://codex.wordpress.org/Using_Smilies

  498. TB Queensland permalink
    February 25, 2013 7:55 pm

    In any decent leftist society that should qualify m for a lifetime on welfare!

    Why do you dislike helping people, sp?* (FYI, I was in the workforce for 45 years and out of work for six weeks – no dole, BTW) …

    … but I know some people need help … I also know people fudge all sorts of ailments … in my career I was at the sharp end of H&S for four years and photographed/videod a few artful dodgers …

    But in general the cheats are in the minority … in all walks of lfe … and that has nothing to do with which party is in power …

    Take your wrath out on the cheats … not the government in power … ’cause I can assure you – it makes no difference who’s running the show … welfare is for the needy …

    * I do recall you telling me that you have a large family … but I suspect from reading your posts – you just “get on with it” and can be a bit of a “tyrant” (for want of better word in a hurry) don’t tolerate “softies” … but some folk are just not as organised or “sharp” as others … they need help (the Nazi Party had another Solution) … apologies I’ve just read a chapter in my current book on – you gassed guessed it …

    I get pissed off with the kids born into royalty or money who then think they can tell the rest of us how hard it has been for them … 🙄

  499. el gordo permalink
    February 25, 2013 7:55 pm

    ‘Have you ever wondered why I call – reb – sreb?’

    S is the initial of his first name?

  500. el gordo permalink
    February 25, 2013 8:00 pm

    ’cause I can assure you – it makes no difference who’s running the show … welfare is for the needy …’

    Something should be done about youth unemployment. If they are fit then they should be sent to the mines, paid a lot of money and taken off the public purse.

    Abbott might be keen on this idea.

  501. el gordo permalink
    February 25, 2013 8:06 pm

    Here is one viewpoint on this controversial issue … why our young under skilled workers are on the dole.

    http://australian-conservative-truth.blogspot.com.au/2013/02/youth-unemployment-australias-shame.html

    (I don’t necessarily endorse the views of the author)

  502. TB Queensland permalink
    February 25, 2013 8:17 pm

    If they are fit then they should be sent to the mines, paid a lot of money and taken off the public purse

    Here is one viewpoint on this controversial issue … why our young under skilled workers are on the dole.

    TRAINING is the answer to both your posts, egg … mines are dangerous places – always have been … you don’t just throw people at jobs … they have to be trained for them … PJK set up a National Training Sytem in 1992 … I know ’cause I was there in 1992 and met him … the Howard Government watered down the system until it was almost useless … Rudd and Gillard ain’t done much to improve it … the VET sector is now as unprofessional as it was in 1991 … and Tony Abbott’s lot, won’t have a clue …

    Want my ideas?

  503. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 25, 2013 9:46 pm

    ” Want my ideas?”

    I’m certainly not going to answer that question.

  504. Evil Walrus permalink
    February 25, 2013 9:56 pm

    LOL @ ToM

    Newspoll out tonight.

    I reckon it won’t be as bad as Galaxy

  505. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 25, 2013 11:45 pm

    Media should play fair with PM

    …The media campaign against Ms Gillard and her government can have only two foundations — a dislike of a woman as prime minister or a nasty conservatism that seeks to protect privilege. Either one is unacceptable. We should call on our mainstream media to play fair or not play at all. It is far from healthy for the media in a liberal democratic society to become so unbalanced on matters pertaining to politics…

  506. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 26, 2013 7:47 am

    It seems to me that the media report that Gillard is dishonest and incompetent. That seems consistent with the facts.

  507. el gordo permalink
    February 26, 2013 7:49 am

    Funny how the media consistently gets things right.

  508. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 26, 2013 8:18 am

    TB made me do it:

    😈 😯 😎 :mrgreen: ➡ ❓ ❗ 💡 🙄

    :grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:

  509. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 26, 2013 8:20 am

    😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀

  510. TB Queensland permalink
    February 26, 2013 8:34 am

    😛 (gives you the opportunity to add some body language, sp)

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Well after last night’s Q&A and if ToM’s pushing for Rudd …

    I’d support Turnbull for PM!

    A TICK FOR TURNBULL!

  511. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 26, 2013 10:41 am

    A TICK FOR TURNBULL!

    He was so humble when that woman said he should be LOTO right now! tony abbott must have been punching the walls at home and writing memos to ban him from qanda as well as being his replacement on morning tv!

  512. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 26, 2013 11:04 am

    Lefties love Turnbull. That says it all, really.

    He would have preferred the ALP, but was smart enough to know that without the support of the Unionland faction bosses he was always likely to end up with a knife in his back, like Rudd.

  513. el gordo permalink
    February 26, 2013 11:21 am

    After the election Turnbull should get the job of looking after Abbott’s 15,000 strong Green Army.

  514. TB Queensland permalink
    February 26, 2013 11:36 am

    Turnbull, can be “imagined” as the Leader of Australia … he looks the part, is very articulate and can think on his feet … knowledgable on both world and national issues …

    Abbott can …………………………………………………………………………………………….. walk like a gorilla? He is not a leader never has been … and his ties to the Catlicks are dangerous these days too … especially in a “secular” (cough) country like Oz ….

    Abbott is a puppet … (you lot make me laugh whe you reckon Gillard is “controlled”) … Turnbull is his own man … and probably why the likes of Howard can’t pull his strings and why he will never get the chance to show what he can do …

    I often wonder whether Utegate was set up to achieve Turnbulls downfall?

    Lefties may love Turnbull but you’ll find that a lot of the more intelligent righties do as well …

  515. el gordo permalink
    February 26, 2013 11:43 am

    The Nats can’t stomach him, but I think he has some commendable qualities.

  516. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 26, 2013 11:47 am

    Good point TB. The leader represents the direction of the party, that’s why there is a focus on leadership.

    Turnbull represents a progressive approach to a range of social issues that are currently ignored as both leaders appeal to rednecks.

    The only chance Turnbull has is Rudd returning. The bounce in the polls would send the Liberals into a spin. If you like Turnbull, you should back Rudd.

  517. el gordo permalink
    February 26, 2013 12:08 pm

    ‘If you like Turnbull, you should back Rudd.’

    Great line ToM.

  518. TB Queensland permalink
    February 26, 2013 12:26 pm

    Only problem, ToM … I’ve never really liked, Rudd … I saw him as a means to get rid of John Howard & The Private School Bullies …

    In my lifetime (quite long as you often point out 🙂 ) I’ve lived (and served – trust me I used to work for the government) under a few different governments … I’ve always voted for who I believed could do best for the country …

    At this stage … and for the first time in my life I would vote Liberal —- if Turnbull got the captain’s guernsey …

    If Abbott is still Leader at the election I shall vote ALP … I live in Queensland and the landslide here has created a government of jackasses, jackboots, jackanapes, …

  519. el gordo permalink
    February 26, 2013 12:43 pm

    Turnbull has the appearance of a leader, but intellectually he doesn’t cut it.

    He’s on record as saying CC sceptics are similar to people who refuse to admit smoking causes cancer.

    Turnbull is a doofus.

  520. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 26, 2013 12:45 pm

    Only problem, ToM … I’ve never really liked, Rudd … I saw him as a means to get rid of John Howard & The Private School Bullies …

    Right now Labor need his micromanaging.

    Me too, I wasn’t impressed with Rudd initially but at the endof his time, when he got knifed, I was really warming to him, he was pushing for social progression and the MRRT was going to be brought in. When Rudd came back from his break he was going for it all, the right wing trogs of Labor knew that their days of power and control were numbered, that is why the coup against him.

    I think he is just the person to take on internal party reform if he gets another run, he’ll have the people’s mandate for it..and the taste for revenge!

    I wouldn’t mind seeing it happen actually, seeing the carnage he would wreak upon those powermongers like shorten, conroy, debruyn et al.

  521. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 26, 2013 12:49 pm

    I’m with AO!

    Revenge on the hacks, is a fine objective in itself. Combined with a reasonably progressive agenda, who would possibly complain?!

    …only hacks and powerbrokers

  522. el gordo permalink
    February 26, 2013 1:21 pm

    ‘Revenge on the hacks, is a fine objective in itself.’

    Agreed.

    And when Rudd becomes leader of the Opposition he will have a free hand to reinvent the party.

  523. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 26, 2013 1:35 pm

    It is high time the Coalition installed some truly representative leaders – Bill Heffernan as the Liberal leader, Barnaby Joyce becomes leader of the Nats, gets a lower house seat and becomes deputy PM and Cory Bernardi as leader of the government in the Senate. No need to change the shadow treasurer. In power the coalition will get control of the Senate by doing a deal with Katter who will become our foreign minister. If necessary they will get Wilkie’s vote by promising pokie reform, downgrading the promise of reform to a trial which will be then be postponed until after the next election. As we have seen, Wilkie is dumb enough to fall for that.

    Unless we get some decent conservatives into leadership positions we will just have Labor lite. Nothing much will change as Abbott is a big-government toady and the stupid fucker believes in global warming. Also. the Libs will need a couple of head-nodding pretty faces to stand behind Heffernan when he speaks – that could be Tony and Malcolm.

  524. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 26, 2013 1:49 pm

    “And when Rudd becomes leader of the Opposition he will have a free hand to reinvent the party.”

    Yes. I can just see it now. The nine members of caucus who survive the election vote to throw off the yoke of union control. Michael Williamson (having been recently cleared by a Labor appointed judge and installed again as ALP National President) tells Rudd to stick to eating his earwax and await further instructions from the AWU.

  525. TB Queensland permalink
    February 26, 2013 2:45 pm

    Bill Heffernan as the Liberal leader, Barnaby Joyce becomes leader of the Nats, gets a lower house seat and becomes deputy PM and Cory Bernardi as leader of the government in the Senate. No need to change the shadow treasurer. In power the coalition will get control of the Senate by doing a deal with Katter who will become our foreign minister.

    😯 🙄

  526. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 26, 2013 2:49 pm

    😛 😆 😆

  527. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 26, 2013 2:57 pm

    Bill Heffernan as the Liberal leader,

    No, he doesn’t deserve to be sitting in parliament after his defamation of kirby.

    Barnaby Joyce becomes leader of the Nats

    I thought he was…oh wait, what’s that other guy’s name…you hardly see or hear from him, it’s on the tip of my tongue.

    Cory Bernardi as leader of the government in the Senate

    What are you trying to do? Why would we want that backwards thinking fascist anywhere near legislation, he doesn’t represent anyone!

    Unless we get some decent conservatives into leadership positions we will just have Labor lite…

    Why would we want conservatives in leadership? They are the problem, not the solution, -does bernardi actually represent anyone other than your neo nazi’s and your extremist loony tea leaf brigade? Why would any sane person want this country run by the TeaBaggers?

  528. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 26, 2013 3:05 pm

    Obviously I haven’t got the emoticon think right yet. Maybe this will give you a clue: 😉

  529. TB Queensland permalink
    February 26, 2013 4:29 pm

    I think we are experiencing some, sp, satire, KL … 🙄

    sp, maybe the 😉 should have been after … that could be Tony and Malcolm. 😕

  530. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 26, 2013 4:41 pm

    I’ll get the hang of it eventually, TB. :mrgreen:

  531. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 26, 2013 5:08 pm

    … that could be Tony and Malcolm

    You mean that wasn’t serious?

  532. TB Queensland permalink
    February 26, 2013 5:54 pm

    😆

    Next, sp, will want Ironbar Tuckey to return as Whip!

  533. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 26, 2013 6:17 pm

    Or maybe they could put Tuckey in as speaker. Back in the day, Howard promised to reform the speaker position so that it was more impartial – something along the lines of the UK system. Of course, no such thing happened. Halverson was a fair speaker, but he was soon replaced by National Party headkicker Ian Sinclair.

    I know it is a small matter in the scheme of things, but I detest Howard for breaking his promise to reform the speaker position.

  534. toiletcatchingupwithblinkeredlunacy permalink
    February 26, 2013 6:27 pm

    Fred Nile, for the win!

  535. el gordo permalink
    February 26, 2013 7:08 pm

    Assange is certain to pick up a seat.

    ‘Contrary to the expectations of a number of political commentators, the Australian Electoral Commission has accepted Mr Assange’s enrolment as an eligible overseas elector in the Victorian federal seat of Isaacs, the seat of Labor Attorney-General Mark Dreyfus.’

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/assange-takes-step-closer-to-senate-20130225-2f1dw.html#ixzz2LzTGw900

  536. February 26, 2013 7:38 pm

    From twitter…

    “There is going to come a moment, probably in the wee hours in the Rooty Hill RSL, when the PM asks herself “How has it come to this?”

  537. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 26, 2013 10:04 pm

    THE EGO BEHIND ANTI-WELFARISM

    …The removal of something as efficient and equitable as an estate tax represents, to my mind, yet another instance in which Australia is actively entrenching wealth and privilege, to its own long-term disadvantage.

    That this is becoming increasingly common is better dealt with elsewhere, but is best exhibited by the amount of public money that is funnelled to private schools, subsidising health insurance and the very existence of negative gearing. It is exhibited when the (Labor) government spends billions subsidising fossil fuel companies while stripping single mothers of support. And, of course, scrapping the estate tax.

    But what is the moral and philosophical underpinning of this shift? Why is it now an article of faith across both major parties to funnel money away from support for the disenfranchised and towards the comfortable, even wealthy? What strain of thinking is so powerful in Australian society that even those Socialist Communists The Greens are too scared to push for a tax on inherited wealth?…

    Things Bogans Like:

    #255 – Living Once

  538. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 26, 2013 10:22 pm

    I like “Things Bogans Like”

    I see there’s a photo of Fifi – just under 247!

  539. Evil Walrus permalink
    February 26, 2013 10:57 pm

    Completely off topic guys and gals

    Channel 9 Reporter Peter Harvey is in hospital and extremely ill surrounded by family tonight.

    His illness was well publisised. But any finality is always tough.

    So sad

  540. July 10, 2014 9:23 pm

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