Gillard Vows to Go Down with the Ship!
The latest AFR/Nielsen poll brings nothing but bad news for Labor, with Tony Abbott solidifying his lead over Julia Gillard as the preferred PM and Joe Hockey pulling ahead of Wayne Swan as the preferred treasurer.
However Julia Gillard remains defiant saying that she won’t “flinch” in the face of poor polls that consistently predict a complete and utter annihilation at the election which is now just a mere six months away.
Labor’s primary vote now sits at just 31 per cent while the Coalition remains steady on 47 per cent.
The election-deciding two-party preferred split has the government on 44 per cent and the opposition at 56 per cent – a six per cent swing to the coalition from the 50-50 result in 2010 and a landslide victory if carried through to election day.
Voters also prefer a Kevin Rudd-led Labor Party by two to one, with 62 per cent opting for Mr Rudd against Ms Gillard’s 31 per cent.
But Ms Gillard has dismissed any prospect of being “tapped on the shoulder” by senior ministers, saying it was much speculated on but “just won’t happen”.
“If I haven’t flinched yet, why would I flinch now? she said.
“I’ll just keep getting on with it and dealing with the issues that actually matter and all of this kind of side commentary can do whatever it does. It’s not going to deter me or distract me.”
theguttertrash.com 
So when exactly will all the factions tied up supporting her finally disintegrate due to individual MPs survival instinct ?
Will they continue to allow her to drive the bus over the cliff without at least trying another driver………………Someone……………………anyone……………..but Gillard .
‘I won’t flinch’
What possible reason is there to believe her?
“Ï won’t flinch”
Just like the last dying days of the Howard government when the lying rodent refused to step down as leader despite the polls indicating a landslide win for Rudd…
“Will they continue to allow her to drive the bus over the cliff without at least trying another driver………………Someone……………………anyone……………..but Gillard .”
However the only other option is Rudd. From what I have heard they would rather be unemployed than work with Rudd.
Just can’t give up the ring… so precious.
Neil, at the moment there are many ALP MPs who are likely to become unemployed if they leave Gillard at the helm.
In the past many would have been able to get a little consulting or project work from ALP state governments, or friendly businesses who needed to lobby state governments.
Now they don’t have that option, and the former union officials will find their old unions strapped for cash, and not wanting to support someone who is used to MP level remuneration. The former school teachers won’t really be too inclined to go back to the class room.
Many won’t get a pension that will allow retention of their lifestyle.
What’s left for them? Nothing.
Their best option is to eat the Rudd sh!t sandwich, pretend to the public that it is foie gras and give themselves a chance of another term.
And of course if they switched to Rudd and Rudd was to win the election for them they could always roll him later on………on some dark cold night in Canberra…………….that might work
LOL
Trouble with that option ToM is that none of them are wearing clothes, the electorate is savvy to their games. It has to be someone who has nothing to lose, chosen by acclamation from a desperate caucus.
There is no use moving to Shorten, Smith, Combet, Carr or anyone else. They aren’t going to produce any political benefit.
The only hope for the ALP is to dump Gillard, go to a quick election with Rudd, and scramble back. It’s an outcome Gillard deserves too. As does Abbott.
she would rather see the lab party wiped out.. then flinch oh dear…
She is NOT vowing to go down with the ship. She plans to stay afloat. I am an impartial observer and I cannot see that Tony Abbott is electable. He is too risky.
Julia’s PR Department is talking up how well Labor is doing in Myanmar.
That’s nice. 😯
“I am an impartial observer and I cannot see that Tony Abbott is electable. He is too risky.”
I can appreciate the sentiment Dianne, and that look on your face just says it all.
Many of us agree, however the reality is that the polls suggest Gillard is finished…
It’s a sad state of affairs when Tony Abbott is consistently shown to be in an election winning position.
‘He is too risky.’
Its not about him, its policy. The electorate aren’t stupid and will vote for the LNP no matter who the leader is.
Hockey and Turnbull come to mind.
What policy….egg…??
At this stage in the game, it seems that voters will vote for ABG (anyone but Gillard)…
That’s hardly a ringing endorsement of Abbott…. 🙄
Abbott will roll out his strategy soon. What’s the rush?
‘There is no use moving to Shorten, Smith, Combet, Carr or anyone else. They aren’t going to produce any political benefit.’
Combet and Shorten are on the nose, while Carr is too old and in the wrong house.
Smith will almost certainly lose his seat in the coming election…. I rest my case.
Well I would agree with you if I could be sure that the polls are accurate. Who is being polled these days. Fewer people have a land line and the pollsters do not ring mobiles. Who is more likely to have a land line? Older people. Older people are more likely to vote for the Liberals. I think the election will be decided by vulnerable voters, those with big mortgages who work on contracts or at a number of part time jobs. Will they vote for Tony Abbott?
““If I haven’t flinched yet, why would I flinch now? she said.”
Why indeed?
When her sole objective has been taking power and holding on to power no matter the consequences, it stands to reason that she has lost all sense of shame or even self-respect. All we have now is the same hollowed-out wreck of a human being we saw mumbling about molecules with new glasses.
The contest for power in Australian politics has become a race to the bottom of the sewer. I don’t know what we have done to deserve this wretched state of affairs. It seems that both parties think the winner of the next election will be the one that can rub voters’ noses in the biggest pile of shit and behave accordingly.
I hope you’re right Dianne, but the polls, historically speaking, have proven to be quite accurate…
“she has lost all sense of shame or even self-respect. All we have now is the same hollowed-out wreck of a human being we saw mumbling about molecules with new glasses.”
Strongly agree SB…!
And as I think I have mentioned before, you do have a lovely way with words…. 🙂
‘Older people are more likely to vote for the Liberals.’
Would you have a link for that?
Dianne
I’ve been polled recently and as much as I appreciate the “no mobiles” argument i don’t think that its as big a problem as you seem to think it quite simply because what we tend to consider is trends over a number of surveys which tends to smooth out such demographic concerns. Also when I was polled I was asked may age and when I said what it was they explained that they had quota for each age range including the young people that you think don’t participate
I find it amusing that they pick fights with mining billionaires and press billionaires and gambling billionaires but they are so fucking useless they don’t see the totally fucking obvious fight that real people want the government to pick a fight with.
Real people…….the ones out in the west of Sydney that Julia wanted to court want the government to pick a smash up derby fight with
Drum roll ………………………
The dominance of Woolworths and Coles.
But they are too blinded by stupidity to see the obvious
Even I’d lend some qualified support.
They could even save the food canning industry by showing a generic label on a can of corn on a supermarket shelf being canned and shipped from an overseas factory next to a corn field fed with human excrement.
I’ve already seen it.
I don’t buy “no name” brands
Is anyone watching the embarrassing performance of ALP David Feeney on Q&A. Gillard must be horrified.
It’s hilarious
The media laws will subtract from the ALP polls numbers.
Why is everybody so quick to quote these noise-polls, but never include what the actual questions were asked, who they asked and when.? _ Why does this lack of transparency only bother me.?
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/ministers-turn-on-pm-20130318-2gb8r.html#ixzz2NvoKhqCU
Carr denied this.
As Mandy Rice-Davies said – “well, he would say that, wouldn’t he”
Carr is experienced enough to know a shambolic, dysfunctional government when he sees one.
The government’s media reforms show yet another example of misjudgement and poor planning. Gillard and Conroy wanted a brief period of his high intensity, pressure on the independents to pass the bills.
Now, whatever the outcome, the process will deservedly be seen as a debacle. To put the parliament (and the public) under such pressure over such an important issue is a disgrace.
We’re talking about 6 pieces of legislation, and Conroy and Gillard think a week of public debate is sufficient. Gillard has stuffed this up, and whatever the merits of the legislation, the process is disgraceful.
This one is a prime example of –
• her inclination to put politics in front of good public policy,
• her poor judgement,
• poor policy execution and
• fundamental dishonesty.
Gillard does not deserve to hold high office.
Nobody is saying Rudd for PM, they just want to knife joolya…. the job ahead for the new PM is humungous.
“Nobody is saying Rudd for PM, they just want to knife joolya”
Just like everyone else in the country, bar a few rusted-on’s.
When you see 31% primary vote support for Labor you just weep for a nation where 30% of the population have an IQ of 20 or less.
SB
I like that comment!
Just like the sundry Coalition adherents, rusted-on limpets will never be shifted.
The ALP could confiscate all of their pets for cancer research & appropriate half of their savings & those drooling lickspittles would still vote the same way.
They are, essentially, ‘guaranteed’ votes.
Lots of murmuring in the corridors of Parliament House today as the rumour is that McLelland wants to get out of the joint ASAP and with Butler and Carr now backing Rudd something is going to happen in the next 48 hours
Previously Gillard and Conroy were talking up the all or nothing approach. Chest beating, tough talk. Now typically, in their stupid tactics will now be portrayed as a defeat, they have backed down. The tough talk didn’t work, MPs weren’t intimidated.
Gillard is a disgrace.
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/media-bills-may-be-split-after-outcry-20130319-2gc2x.html#ixzz2NxZKpJ6U
Why Conroy and Gillard even thought they had sufficient political capital to ram such controversial Laws through is beyond the intellectual grasp of all but the true rusted ons
”Let me say very clearly to the Leader of the Opposition – it will be a contest, counter intuitive to those believing in gender stereotypes, but a contest between a strong, feisty woman and a policy-weak man and I’ll win it.”
‘Leader of opposition business Christopher Pyne complained that Ms Gillard went far beyond answering the question. ”And then she, as an aside, said for some unknown reason, misogynist Tony is back,” he said.
”I would ask her to withdraw it because it is a slur on the Leader of the Opposition and a desperate comment from a desperate prime minister.”
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/feisty-woman-will-win-over-policy-weak-abbott-pm-20130319-2gcui.html#ixzz2NxeD9UAR
Hear hear!
“…misogynist Tony is back,”
Good to see she does none of the instigating of bad behaviours as she claims.
I do hope they keep her.
She’ll destroy the ALP so it will then need to reform itself to become a Social Democrat movement and not just the political wing of a clutch of less and less relevant trade unions.
She deserves the eternal shame of being the destroyer of such a historic party.
Cameron in the Senate Committee yesterday seemed fixated on UK events and the Leveson inquiry. Perhaps Conroy was so desperate to ram this fascist legislation through right now because he thought he might get some extra traction from the fact that the UK is considering similar legislation. It is beyond bizarre that this controversial (to put it mildly) legislation is being rammed through with so little time and opportunity for debate.
Conroy and Cameron make a nice pair. They are both powerful Unionland faction bosses and as such have a very limited concept of democratic institutions. They are emblematic of what is rotten and wrong with the ALP and why it is now irrelevant to ordinary Australians.
” rusted-on limpets will never be shifted “
Exactly Dunny. Which is why l find rusted-on`s chortling about the importance of so-called democracy quite funny. Being rusted-on removes all evaluation of the offers and situations.
Rusted on to democracy and proud of it.
So this ridiculous rush is at least in part driven by UK events:
What? So Gillarrd wants the parliament to debate the issues being debated in parliaments overseas.
I thought we were a little short of parliamentary time.
She is a true f**kwit**
**and greatly admired by other f**kwits
Yes
Perhaps we should invade the Falklands to make her feel better.
What a grubby fucking lying idiot she truly is
I do hope they keep her as PM though.
“So Gillarrd wants the parliament to debate the issues being debated in parliaments overseas.”
And what did they vote for when their Gay Marriage Bill came before the UK Parliament ?
while it is easy to hate Joolya`s guts, laugh at the Alp imploding since Kevin07 was knifed and the continual Lefty panic generated by the embedded media and noise-polls, Why doesn`t it bother anyone that the policy-lite Mr-Rabbit is not inspected as closely and rigorously as the rest.? What does Mr-Rabbit offer on anything that is better.?
“What does Mr-Rabbit offer on anything that is better.?”
Yeah………………he should utter something like “I’m a fiscal conservative” or “Me Too”
Or have we heard that before sometime ?
‘What does Mr-Rabbit offer on anything that is better.?’
Its the party of deregulation.
‘Why doesn`t it bother anyone that the policy-lite Mr-Rabbit is not inspected as closely and rigorously as the rest.?’
He’s not the PM spending our money rashly.
“while it is easy to hate Joolya`s guts”
That is a monumental understatement!
What does Mr-Rabbit offer on anything that is better.?
This is the real dilemma, isn’t it?
Clearly he has the same “say anything to get ahead in the polls” attitude, but if he is genuine on blocking government regulation of the media that would probably do it for me.
You have a short memory 730
http://kalimna.blogspot.com.au/2007/10/kevin-rudds-me-tooism.html
“he should utter something like “I’m a fiscal conservative”
Rudd was fond of that line but then he got in, spent like there was no tomorrow.
” This is the real dilemma, isn’t it? (yep)
Clearly he has the same “say anything to get ahead in the polls” attitude, “
agree, which is what l see as the problem with the never-ending noise-polls, which drown the voter/public in noise, but also drown-out ALL politicians that may have something `worth-while` to say.
.
on the well watered-down media regs, you would be choosing between `more-of-the-same-crap` if Mr-Rabbit defeats it, AND, `just-slightly-less-crap-news` if Joolya passes it. A very slight news-output difference to the consumer/voter.
” Its the party of deregulation. “
‘What does Mr-Rabbit offer on anything that is better.?’
usual useless sound-bites from gordo which has no answer to the question/staement made/referenced
.
” He’s not the PM spending our money rashly.”
rashly.? Like pensions, prescriptions, education. You can alway stop using these yourself, in strident support of the teabag theory you peddle, but this still doesn`t equate to an `alternative` govt to the rest of us, who are yet to see any type of offer that doesn`t seem `non-core`
I see a very clear line that should be maintained: the government should not even give the appearance of interference with press freedom.
Beyond that it is utterly insane to try to implement this controversial policy in a week.
You do realise it is still `self-regulation` tho splatter.? Mean the zombies get to write the rules and the penalties, if you can call them that, are things like corrections and apologies must be published, and displayed as prominently as the bullshit was. l still suspect it is too late anyhow, the zombie-news media will canabalise itself anyway.
‘What does Mr-Rabbit offer on anything that is better.?’
Abbott doesn’t have to offer anything, status quo is best.
This teabag thingy is amusing, but is unrelated to Australian thinking.
‘but this still doesn`t equate to an `alternative` govt to the rest of us, who are yet to see any type of offer that doesn`t seem `non-core`
Abbott continues his argument that by dismantling the tax on CC we will all richer. Go to the CO2 thread and you will see the power of free press in uncovering fraud and corruption.
(Maybe I’m a bit obtuse, but I’m not seeing why the free press, which mainly seems to consist of commercial enterprises operating pursuant to corporate and other laws of the land should be exempt from the very democratic laws of the democracy they constantly blather on about. As good corporate citizens operating through markets, one might almost begin to suspect that they don’t really want democracy, or to be any part of democracy; they want ectopic autocracy or anarchy, when delivering their special brands of consumer product, including sundry editorials of democratic government from their especially unelected, yet-megaphonic positions.
Which is fine, assuming that their free-speech doesn’t give them more of a vote than actual, in-the-flesh citizens; and assuming that their perpetual attempts to pronounce and denounce on policy-making don’t actually corrupt the actual democratic process; which might even extend to the radical idea that hitherto uncontroversial and really quite undemanding self-regulation qua consumer protection actually be enforceable and enforced in such a way that such actual product corruption and potential democratic corruption is ameliorated.)
What? So Gillarrd wants the parliament to debate the issues being debated in parliaments overseas.
I thought we were a little short of parliamentary time.
I can assure you the “Western Democracies” functiona as “one” … in fact it astounded me the similarities between USA, UK and Oz … in legislative change …
You should travel more ToMmy …
This teabag thingy is amusing, but is unrelated to Australian thinking.
You might be right … in my opinion you are dead right (for a change) but the POLITICIANS don’t know that …
I must say after reading the right wing crap above, from most posters – and you know who you are … its no better than CW I and CW II … just a mirror image … patting each other on the back at rants against the government and no criticism of the Opposition’s lack of policies, leadership or … what ? yes, sb, you come “close” but deliberately mysoginist comments are just that …
I mean I don’t care for either major party (coalitions) but many of you spout Independent … and its bleeding obvious you’re not …
Fkn hypocrites … level the criticism … or fly your right wing colours …
Well said, M, as usual!
“Why doesn`t it bother anyone that the policy-lite Mr-Rabbit is not inspected as closely and rigorously as the rest.? What does Mr-Rabbit offer on anything that is better.?”
And what does Labor has to offer?? This is what they offered in 2007.
http://www.abc.net.au/insidebusiness/content/2007/s2158854.htm
“STEPHEN CONROY: I think there is definitely interest, now whether they can build the business case, that’s a matter for the consortium. What we have said is that we won’t contribute more than $4.7 billion whether it’s a fibre to the node or fibre to the home proposal, so we’re very very keen to encourage fibre to the home, the benefits of fibre to the home when you combine it with smart metering is that you could be demand managing electricity supplies, water supplies, gas supplies and the impact on a greenhouse gas production just from those sorts of technologies if you combine these sorts of things are very very exciting, so fibre to the home has some wonderful potential but it is more costly and people have got to build the business case, they can’t expect the Government’s going to give more than $4.7 billion...”
And Labor wants truth in the media?? How about Labor stops telling lies to win an election. They said the NBN would take 5 years to build which means they should be finishing it about now.
Piers Ackerman ridiculed by government apologists on our ABC.
” Abbott doesn’t have to offer anything,”
True. Mr-Rabbit doesn`t `have` to offer anything, ie offer `nothing`. While offering `nothing` he offers voters `nothing` to vote for. Worked well in 2010 for him.
.
” status quo is best.”
which is bullshit, the teabags continually inch rights/benefits away from the little people and toward the mega-rich, (you really aren`t aware of things are you)
“I must say after reading the right wing crap above, from most posters – and you know who you are … its no better than CW I and CW II … just a mirror image … “
Except, that no one is currently banned from this site….
l think TB is referring to the `level` of discussion coming out of the teabags reb, if you notice, teabags are doing the same as coffee-2, except it`s Mr-Rabbit_Love
Piers Ackerman ridiculed by government apologists on our ABC.
Akermann … BTW, egg, is a ridicule in himself … a Toad of Toad Hall if ever …
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Except, that no one is currently banned from this site….
I take your point, sreb, quantity not quality 🙂
…. but the hypocrisy is writ loud …
… in this case its rusted on RW’s … pretending to be bipartisan … well not even that really …
… credit where credit is due … apart from Neil who’s never veered from the Young Liberal Party line … (reminds me of 1936 in a well known European country) … but then …
Leadership spills usualy come from out of the blue …
A Tick For Turnbull
I completely disagree 730…
The admin at coffee 1 and 2 attempt to control the discussion and debate by censoring or banning those who don’t adhere to a particular political persuasion.
That’s completely fucked as far as I’m concerned and makes a mockery of their lofty self-professed claim to be “Australia’s Media Alternative.”
I mean honestly, who are these people…?
An ex-public servant who abandoned his wife and family to shack up with some old hack from Queensland who he met online….
I do recall the days when Miglo lived in fear of his identity being exposed when he worked as a public servant under the Howard Govt.
Now he employes those very same tactics – to attempt to intimidate those who perceives to be his opponents..
” The teabag thingy is amusing, but is unrelated to Australian thinking.”
of course your too blind to see it gordo, but Falcom was well aware of how far the John-W regime had dragged the Libz into Teabagland and he quit the Libz. Mr-Rabbit is remaining in Teabagland.
I completely disagree 730…
My comment … your wrong … 073 is right …
… he was analysing my comment, not your emotions … 😉
” I completely disagree 730″
oops, sorry reb, l was not referring to `admin` but to commenter`s. yomm, grodo, jaws.?, do the right-wing version of what fucu does as left-wing
” Piers Ackerman ridiculed by”
weeeeell, pretty much everyone with a brain in their head grodo, who hasn`t lined up for the standard issue teabag lobotomy
Should we totally destroy the msm, except for the ABC and SBS?
Do you believe mining magnets like Gina should be locked up and their companies taken over by the government?
Not even Chinese state capitalism would be overjoyed with that.
By the way 920 I’m still none the wiser on this teabag thing, could you flesh it out a bit?
Take a few pars if necessary, its a complex matter.
‘A Tick For Turnbull’
In your dreams Queenslander.
In your dreams Queenslander.
One thing I’ve never done is dream of pollies … not even nightmares … never judge others by your own experiences, egg … 😉
The MSM is the most under-regulated industry in this country … even our banks are regulated … that’s one reason Oz “survived” better than the USA and EU (as did Canada BTW) …
Strangely, I notice a few “negative” stories about the Opposition the last couple of days, from news.com.au … LOL!
While reuters is getting stuck into Cameron’s mob … mmmm …
Crean will save the furniture .
‘in this case its rusted on RW’s … pretending to be bipartisan …’
When you were in the army and your colleagues were fighting the Vietcong, I was running with the red shirts in Sydney. We were young and naive (bit like joolya) but we helped bring that atrocious war to an end.
You are under the misapprehension that I’m somehow a right winger, just because I’ve found fault with the government of the day….get a life.
Smith and Gray to save the party.
You are under the misapprehension that I’m somehow a right winger, just because I’ve found fault with the government of the day….get a life.
But none with the Opposition … that’s where we differ …
but we helped bring that atrocious war to an end.
I’m so pleased, thank you …
Australia was involved from 1962 … till 1972 … I was discharged in 1971 … and here’s me thinking it was ’cause, North Vietnam beat the crap out of any country that had invaded them for the previous 200 years, including France, USA and little ol’ Oz and Kiwiland … 🙄
I’m looking forward to the history lesson next year … I’ll bring you a copy back …
sbs1 news says, the National guy just quit, and is not going to run against Windsor
“An ex-public servant who abandoned his wife and family to shack up with some old hack from Queensland who he met online….”
Don’t forget he hates his in laws on his wife’s side because they spoil their kids at Christmas time.
Yes he did use the word “hate”
What sort of bizarre and truly sick fucker talks like that on a forum about his In laws when he does little to disguise his true identity
I just find it constantly amusing at how “ill” he suddenly claims to be whenever the fawning attention drops away a bit
I really do need to carry a bucket around lest I piss myself laughing.
Thanks for the mop suggestion TJ
730’s default position…
teabag,teabag, teabag, teabag, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah,blah, blah,blah, blah, Mr rabbit, Mr rabbit, Mr rabbit, blah, blah, blah… but I’ll give my vote to Julia blah, teabag, teabag
Fascinating.
” Should we totally destroy the msm, “
No need to grodo, they are destroying themselves (newsrooms)
.
” Do you believe mining magnets like Gina “
attracted to iron, and point North/South
“sbs1 news says, the National guy just quit, and is not going to run against Windsor”
Yes 223am
He was named in the Obeid diaries.
I think the Nats have acted quickly and correctly. They got it wrong.
What fun it is in NSW at the moment to see how well the ALP just helped itself to the States resources.
A weakness barely tapped yet by the Fed LNP
“A weakness barely tapped yet by the Fed LNP”
Beats me how little mud has stuck to Bob Carr. It was Carr who gave Obeid a Ministry.
” Chinese state capitalism would be overjoyed “
you`re really an out-of-touch teabag aren`t you gordo. A foreign company who sets up in China needs a local partner to do so. Foreign companies take their, capital, intellectual property, product and brand to China and share 50% of it with their new partner `The-Peoples_Republic-of-China. That`s right teabags, each foreign biz that sets up in China gives half of it to the Govt of China in exchange for 10-cents an hour labor. China is already `over-joyed`.
Fairfax reporting that Crean is being pushed. Crean is ok, but would do nothing for the standing of the government.
Tomorrow I think I’ll use the email links at AINN and TPS to circulate my support for Rudd.
Wait a minute ToM
Far too hasty
Whitlam might be available.
By the way 920 I’m still none the wiser True on
.
this teabag thing, blogs.very.limited.news/bolt
.
could you flesh it out a bit? you want flesh, try blogs.very.limited.news/piers
Meanwhile the projections of NBN have been drastically reduced AGAIN.
And the Spectrum Auctions have been delayed because Optus and Vodafone have completely pulled out.
It’s a very very very sad fuck up indeed.
” Vietnam beat the crap out of any country that had invaded them for the previous 200 years”
.
TB, centuries for sure. Siam (thailand) and China empires had several tries at occupying them and their neighbors, but those `little` countries ended up defeating/ousting the invaders. History repeats. Watch-list Afghan.
‘Vietnam beat the crap out of any country that had invaded them for the previous 200 years.’
Fair enough, but there is a lot more to it, the moratorium movement shocked the government. They had already announced the withdrawal of a battalion, but it wasn’t enough to save the LNP which had retained power for 20 years.
Australians were primarily against conscription and the government’s Forward Defence Policy was now on the nose. There was also the nightly news on TV showing what a shambles it was over there, so all in all it was the loss of morale which ended the war and brought our troops home.
Jeff Kennett in the Hun:
“The only circumstances he would consider it would be a cross factional delegation from the parliamentary party which drafted him to the leadership to save the party from oblivion.” a source close to Mr Rudd said.’
The Daily Telegraph
Looks like it will be Crean then, gordo.
Australia was involved from 1962 … till 1972 … I was discharged in 1971 … and here’s me thinking it was ’cause, North Vietnam beat the crap out of any country that had invaded them for the previous 200 years, including France, USA and little ol’ Oz and Kiwiland …
Sorry……when did the Allied Nations invade North Vietnam?
Australians were primarily against conscription
Not initially, it was supported by the electorate … and as you said yourself the LNP Coalition held power for 20 years … Whitlam came to power on a platform promising to return troops from VN … Menzies always wanted his “own” war …
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sorry……when did the Allied Nations invade North Vietnam?
James, I think I get your question … they didn’t … they “invaded” South Vietnam “politically” … in an attempt to stop the “domino effect” of Communism …
France had just been booted out after taking on the Viet Min (fore runners of the Viet Cong) and losing a dramatic battle at Dien Bien Phu … (watch the opening scenes of “We Were Soldiers”)
… the Americans had installed a puppet government in South Vietnam … a very corrupt puppet government, I might add …
… but the VN conflict was a civil war … we were involved politically … not our stoush … just as we have stayed out of Syria (and as we should have stayed out of Iraq and Afghanistan …)
The Yanks and her allies were quite literally booted out of the country … one I look forward to visiting next year … a lovely place and quite stabel under a communist government, I’m relieably informed …
Wally visits regularly, if memory serves … he may have something to add …
BTW, neither North nor South Vietnam has ever invaded the USA … 🙂
Yeah I know how to spell — stable …
‘Not initially, it was supported by the electorate …’
The domino theory seemed real and it was part of the mentality of the time, with communist China in its ascendency.
The electorate didn’t have a clue, they waved the flag and jingoism was back.
Yes, stability can be quite achievable……..if only you can slaughter the populace, control the media, starve the people…….
The Americans weren’t booted out as much as they withdrew due to the war’s unpopularity at home.
And, pray tell, which was the corrupt puppet government that the US installed there?
yanks ” weren’t booted out as much as “
The yanks continually lose wars they start, and many operations because of their own arrogance, their unwillingness to learn from history, and their intrinsic belief in failing their way to success. How many wars has the yanks that we know today, been in a war from start to finish, and actually won.? Answer, zero.
And, pray tell, which was the corrupt puppet government that the US installed there?
……..if only you can slaughter the populace, control the media, starve the people…….
And that’s exactly what the Americans attempted to do …
You want me to be your history teacher now … read this instead …
http://www.harpercollins.com.au/books/Vietnam-Australian
“The Americans weren’t booted out as much as they withdrew due to the war’s unpopularity at home.”
They were stabbed in the back by western leftists working hand in hand with the enemy. Gigolo traitor John Kerry meet with the North Vietnamese foreign minister. Unsurprisingly he attacked his own country’s involvement and advocated a position more in keeping with the North Vietnamese agenda.
The result achieved by the vile leftist protesters was the subjugation of the South by a murderous communist regime. A million people were murdered in the years following the war and, as was the case with all of the leftist dictatorships of the 20th Century, the populace endured poverty, misery and death. That is what the leftist protesters of the west delivered to the Vietnamese people – 30 years of poverty, misery and death. No wonder they reminisce so proudly about their role as anti-war activists.
And of course that calculating racist areshole Whitlam wouldn’t take in refugees fleeing that murderous regime. His sympathies lay elsewhere. And of course these great humanitarian anti-war protesters angrily attacked Whitlam’s callousness. Oh wait – no they didn’t, they are leftists.
It’s no use moving to Crean. He was regarded as an unsuccessful leader, he waffled. He’s about due for retirement.
It is pointless to change leaders unless they switch to Rudd. He would have credibility in the electorate, and the advantage of having a range of non performing ministers not serve with him – Swan for example.
A Rudd cabinet would look fresh, a new government.
Crean is a has been with no electoral credibility.
So I take it, TB, you don’t feel the need to substantiate your claims that amount to nothing more than the usual lefty rhetoric?
This will give you some insight into my comments, James
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#Diem_era.2C_1955.E2.80.931963
And this …
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_to_the_1963_South_Vietnamese_coup
So I take it, TB, you don’t feel the need to substantiate your claims that amount to nothing more than the usual lefty rhetoric?
What are you talking about? Substantiate what “claims”?
go find `the-fog-of-war` doco, robert mcnamara explains his stuff-ups and why the yanks shouldn`t have been in vietnam
Strange subject to play silly buggers with … so what’s got yer knickers in a knot, James?
You claimed the Allies invaded North Vietnam. They didn’t. You claimed the US installed a puppet government. They didn’t.You lauded the “stable” Vietnamese Communist Government. Unfknblvble.
Worst of all, you claimed the US intended to slaughter the Vietnamese population.What are you trying to do? Replace Adrian as the disseminator ofthe most baseless lefty crap?
I know who sounds unstable …
You claimed the Allies invaded North Vietnam
No I didn’t … I said:
“” North Vietnam beat the crap out of any country that had invaded them for the previous 200 years, including France, USA and little ol’ Oz and Kiwiland … “”
BTW, North Vietnam is part of Vietnam … just remove the North if you want to be so pedantic …
You claimed the US installed a puppet government.
Because they did … read the links above …
You lauded the “stable” Vietnamese Communist Government. Unfknblvble.
Your words not mine … I said:
“” a lovely place and quite stable under a communist government, I’m relieably informed …
Wally visits regularly, if memory serves … he may have something to add … “”
I’ll “laud” any stable government no matter their politics … that’s probably where we differ … in many things … but I’m visiting VN next year so I’ll get a better idea …
Worst of all, you claimed the US intended to slaughter the Vietnamese population.
You’ve completely lost me with that assumption … quote would be nice …
And that’s exactly what the Americans attempted to do …
And that’s exactly what the Americans attempted to do …
Read your history … start with Mai Lai … the USA don’t do “hearts and minds” … that was an Australian initiative …
And if you want to analyse every sentence I write, go ahead … check our exchange this morning I’ve provide LINKS and you OPINIONS …
I was around during the VN War and have a personal interes in it … I almost got a free holiday to VN … where were you at the time?
Here’s another LINK … there’s a lot of them … and I’ve read most over the last 40 years!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties
‘The result achieved by the vile leftist protesters..’
Yes but …
Otherwise I agree with your comments. Cambodia was a turning point for many on the left, let’s not forget the ‘killing fields’.
And to this day in North Korea we see the remnant of a failed political philosophy, which has no place in the modern age.
OK, so is Diem the “puppet” installed? It was a direct question, which you haven’t answered.
Pol Pot didn’t ascend to leadership of Cambodia until 1975, some 2 1/2 years after the US troop withdrawal had been completed from Vietnam.
There is no doubt that the South Vietnamese government was corrupt. You just need to read a little about it plus talk to various parties involved at the time (My brother in law was attached to the 3rd Cavalry Regiment involved in the Battle of Coral).
He said the joint was thick with political leadership corruption in relation to who ran the nightclubs, the hookers, who imported the booze , who distributed the drugs and who went in and out of the jails.
Even my tour guide when I first went to the joint (he served with the Australians and was imprisoned post war for 8 years) told of the corruption in the South.
The joint is still corrupt.
For instance if you ever get to go just be aware that traffic police officers will quite often pull over your tour bus for no other reason than they can see that its full of Caucasian tourists and demand a levy of say US$3 from the driver as they know the driver is likely getting tips from Westerners and can afford it. Otherwise they’ll just concoct a traffic fine of a greater amount and hit him with that.
Plus the building industry is quite corrupt as well per the Natives.
Lucky for us no such stuff occurs in Australia.
No sir …………………no way………………..not a chance.
Does anyone enjoy ski-ing.
I know someone who has a ski lodge.
If you don’t like ski-ing what about a nice stay on a farm in the Hunter Valley ?
“Otherwise I agree with your comments. Cambodia was a turning point for many on the left, let’s not forget the ‘killing fields’.”
Not at first. Although there were ample reports of the massacre, including Cambodia Year Zero, leftists wouldn’t believe it. Idiots like Chomsky were carrying water for Pol Pot long after everyone knew what was happening. Only after the Vietnamese attacked Cambodia in 1978 did leftists feel free to attack their fellow leftist Pol Pot. Australian Cambodia scholar Ben Kiernan later admitted he was initially wrong about Pol Pot. Chomsky on the other hand is incapable of admitting error on his part.
I remember being in the waiting room of a professor in the School of Social Sciences at UNSW at the time and reading pro Pol Pot literature even though news of the massacres was widespread.
‘No wonder they reminisce so proudly about their role as anti-war activists.’
Millions of Australians were deceived into thinking it was a civil war and the most powerful nation on earth should butt out. In hindsight it was a disaster.
This from Wiki to reinforce SBs numbers.
‘Up to 155,000 refugees fleeing the final NVA Spring Offensive were killed or abducted on the road to Tuy Hoa in 1975. Sources have estimated that 165,000 South Vietnamese died in the re-education camps out of 1-2.5 million sent, while the number executed could have been as high as 200,000 (Jacqueline Desbarats estimates an absolute minimum of 100,000 executions.
‘Rummel estimates that slave labor in the “New Economic Zones” caused 50,000 deaths (out of a total 1 million deported). The number of Vietnamese boat people who died is estimated between 200,000 and 400,000, out of the 2.5 million that fled.
‘There were also tens of thousands of suicides after the North Vietnamese take-over. Including Vietnam’s foreign democide, Rummel estimates that a minimum of 400,000 and a maximum of slightly less than 2.5 million people died of political violence from 1975-87 at the hands of Hanoi In 1988, Vietnam suffered a famine that afflicted millions.
‘Under the leadership of Pol Pot, the Khmer Rouge killed 1-3 million Cambodians in the killing fields, out of a population of around 8 million. The Pathet Lao killed some 100,000 Hmong people in Laos.’
Yes, but Walrus, they’re corrupt and STABLE now……that’s what’s important……..
Certainly not the hundreds of thousands, even millions dead or displaced to achieve that stability.
I can see where both TB and James are coming from. The joint is very Commo of according to those in Government and the People are happy that the Government thinks the joint is very Commo.
The North is more Commo and introverted/shy and less “Western” than the South but Private Entrprise abounds in North and South but much more in the South where the tourist dollars are more plentiful………………It’s a helluva lot warmer for one.
The South is much more open and people are more forthcoming with their opinions.
The government might be Commo but there is a Right Wing “pro business” element to it and a Left Wing worker element and a Centre that work within the constraints of a One Party State.
Anyway if you are into “Solidarity Forever “ like Musak assaulting your ear drums at 7am every morning from street speakers you’ll really enjoy the Hanoii in the North.
In the South they cut all the cables.
It just shits me this constant left wing history revisionism. The US never invaded any part of Vietnam. The story of their involvement can’t even be written on a blog like this it’s so bloody convoluted but to describe the on ground troop commitment as anything but reluctant, especially in the early stages, shows that one’s history has been learned entirely from the writings of Chomsky and the Union of Students.
I gained my interest in the subject from the stories of the children who suddenly appeared at my CATHLICK Primary School and their parents. Those who had escaped. That inspired me to actually read the whole thing. It’s worth reading, and not just the stuff that popularly sledges those American bastards.
“shows that one’s history has been learned entirely from the writings of Chomsky and the Union of Students.”
The reason I gave up on leftists was Chomsky’s attempt to suggest the US was responsible for the Hue massacre. When Hue was re-taken after the Tet offensive mass graves were found filled with bodies, arms tied behind their back with barbed wire and bullet in the back of the head. The leftist group I was part of published a piece in the student newspaper reporting Chomsky’s claim that the massacre was exaggerated and most likely carried out by the Yanks in order to make the Vietcong look bad.
I was sceptical about that claim and went across the road to the Army Reserve and asked a few people if anyone knew about it. A soldier there told me that he spotted the graves from the air when Hue was re-taken and the Americans didn’t get into that area for another two weeks. I wrote up the interview, but it was denied publication on the grounds that it was counter-revolutionary.
That episode taught me a lot about Chomsky and about the left in general.
Another media beat-up:
“Chief Government whip and key Kevin Rudd supporter Joel Fitzgibbon has confirmed that Labor MPs are discussing the leadership – though he says no one is yet counting the numbers. …….
Mr Fitzgibbon’s comments today confirmed there is some truth to the talk.
“It’d be silly to tell people .. that there’s nothing’s going on,” he told Fairfax media.
“Obviously internally people are looking at the polls and they’re expressing concern about the future of the Government and indeed the [Australian Labor] Party, and you’ll get conversations and those conversations are unfortunately making their way into the media.”
The ABC is just a propaganda tool of the conservatives.
We need a strong media regulator to stop this sort of dangerous and destructive reporting. How can you expect good government with all of this out of control media speculation destabilising the parliament? Stephen Conroy should also add state of emergency powers to the media law changes so that this sort of thing can be nipped in the bud.
“ Stephen Conroy should also add state of emergency powers to the media law changes so that this sort of thing can be nipped in the bud.”
I agree.
False, misleading or deceptive reporting should be punishable by instant death.
It’s our democracy wot is at stake…!
Who will think of democracy when it’s crying alone at home late at night….!!
Thank God the blogmaster here can always be relied on for truth and honesty……;)
Ms Gillard has been a good prime minister even whwn its been diffcult with the independants and the media. I liked Mr Rudd to. Mr Abbott can’t be trusted.
Is the Government funding the legal defences of Slipper and Thommo in exchange for passing the media laws??
Hi Dan….
It just shits me this constant left wing history revisionism.
I know how you must feel, James but I’m afraid the “history” isn’t MY version – its … well, history … just a pity it doesn’t fit with your “mental image” from other children/students …
Hitler, WAS a right wing fascist NOT a Communist … but I can assure Stalin was far, far worse …
What you and some others here seem to forget is that Australian politics exist in 2013 … and have rarely been the extremes that you attempt to paint … the land of Commies under the bed ended in the 80’s … and here maybe in the 1960’s …
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I was sceptical about that claim and went across the road to the Army Reserve and asked a few people if anyone knew about it. A soldier there told me that he spotted the graves from the air when Hue was re-taken and the Americans didn’t get into that area for another two weeks.
As were a lot of people, sb, and proven correct …
Army Reserve? Over Hue in a helicopter? In 1968?
Only Aussies in Hue would have been special forces (and he would not be speaking to you) … the ADF was deployed to Saigon … he may have been haveing a lend I think, sb …
That episode taught me a lot about Chomsky and about the left in general.
A broad brush approach always helps … sarc alert …
I suppose it didn’t/doesn’t affect most Nashos ’cause they couldn’t vote until they turned 21 … (I was called up at 22 … deferred because I was in the middle of training)
Just for the record, James, I wore an Australian uniform … if not willingly – with pride …
False, misleading or deceptive reporting should be punishable by instant death.
Would that include blogs, sreb … there’s a few here wot’d be in trouble … 😯
And as usual a debate about the US in Vietnam becomes a TB scattergun rant with him declaring he was almost sent to Vietnam so he knows better.
TB, the US did not invade any part of Vietnam, especially not the North.
I am yet to hear from you exactly which of a number of South Vietnamese Governments were installed by the US as a puppet regime.
Mai Lai was but one of a number of atrocities committed by US troops in Vietnam. Disgusting though it was, it pales when contrasted with those committed by the Viet Cong, especially after the Allied withdrawal, which atrocities were the price paid for the stability achieved by the Communists in Vietnam, or part of the price……there’s also that repression, censorship, torture, re-education etc stuff.
What Hitler has to do with it I don’t know other than an attempt to divert the debate……and you’re wrong on that too.
Hitler – “From the camp of bourgeois tradition, it takes national resolve, and from the materialism of the Marxist dogma, living, creative Socialism”
TB, the soldier I spoke to was likely an officer training the reservists. He looked to be about 30.
There are references to Australians being in Hue during Tet eg:
But even if he was taking the piss (I was afresh young student with long hair and a pierced ear), the fact remains that the lefties would not publish the story I wrote up, and not because they thought it was wrong but because it was inconvenient to their cause.
Looks very Socialist to me……
The 25-point Program of the NSDAP
1.We demand the unification of all Germans in the Greater Germany on the basis of the people’s right to self-determination.
2.We demand equality of rights for the German people in respect to the other nations; abrogation of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.
3.We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.
4.Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.
5.Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.
6.The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Reich, the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting parliamentary economy, office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities.
7.We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.
8.Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since 2 August 1914, be forced immediately to leave the Reich.
9.All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.
10.The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all. Consequently we demand:
11.Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
12.In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13.We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
14.We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
15.We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
16.We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
17.We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
18.We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
19.We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
20.The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
21.The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
22.We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
23.We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race; b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language; c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.
24.We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: The good of the state before the good of the individual.[11]
25.For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.
“Hitler, WAS a right wing fascist NOT a Communist”
What is the difference? They were both totalitarians. Hitler was just a different form of socialist. It is not as though he was a raving free marketeer – the state still controlled and directed the economy. And they were allies for a couple of years. In the end Germany and Russia turned on each other – just another form of sibling rivalry. What Freud called ‘the narcissism of minor differences’.
What was spectacularly funny was the gyrations of Western leftists, at first anti-war (almost treasonously so) and then, when Hitler turned on Russia, passionate supporters of the war effort.
By the way
The Americans are certainly not hated by the general population of VN today.
As for the French…………………………………………well that’s another matter entiirely
By the way Splatter…………………………I didnt know you were a student at Kensington Tech……..! LOL
Didnt ya get enough marks to get into the University of Sydney………………….LOL
James, I’m pretty sure they would want a crackdown on 457 visa abuses as well!
“ Stephen Conroy should also add state of emergency powers to the media law changes so that this sort of thing can be nipped in the bud.”
Yes I can see the List of Definitions in the Act as to what “State of Emergency” means
“State of Emergency” -2 or more Newspolls showing 2 party preferred vote in favour of the Coalition
TB’s trying to play the game of “Conservatives have tyrants too”. They can only ever name, with any cred as to tyrant in the Big League, Hitler, who was far from a Conservative.
Toilet tries with Pinochet, but he’s small bickies really, only a few thousand deaths at most.
“Didnt ya get enough marks to get into the University of Sydney………………….LOL”
Fuck off you old twat 😆 – I got 5 first levels, had my choice of all available courses at either place.
Why don’t they have a smiley for giving the finger?
Oh wait, here we go:
……………..–..
……………/??/)
…………,/?../
………../…./
…../??/’…’/???`??
../’/…/…./……./??\
(‘(…?…?…. ?~/’…’)
.\……………..’…../
..’\’…\………. _.??
….\…………..(
……\………….\
But even if he was taking the piss (I was afresh young student with long hair and a pierced ear), the fact remains that the lefties would not publish the story I wrote up, and not because they thought it was wrong but because it was inconvenient to their cause.
Isn’t that what acolytes do though, sb? No matter what side their on …
I tell you what, Splatter, the current ALP have a lot of these covered.
Recently they’ve covered 5,8,10,14,15,20,21,23,and 24!!
457s are in 8, Conroy’s busy with 23!
1:08pm:
Greens leader Christine Milne has secured a deal with the government over media reform.
Senator Milne had some stern words for independent MP Andrew Wilkie:
“I’m calling on him not to allow Rupert Murdoch to run the agenda on media reform.”
****************************************************
3:15pm:
A few minutes ago independent MP Andrew Wilkie responded to the pressure placed on him by the Greens earlier today (see 1.08pm).
Mr Wilkie will not be voting for any of the government’s four remaining media reform bills.
“These reforms are rushed and poorly constructed….No reasonable person could expect quality decisions to be made in these circumstances,” Mr Wilkie says.
****************************Go Andrew Go*****************************
I think even I’d vote for Wilkie
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/the-pulse-live/politics-live-march-20-2013-20130320-2gecr.html#ixzz2O3LAk9CB
What is the difference? They were both totalitarians.
Exactly the point I was making, sb …
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
TB’s trying to play the game of “Conservatives have tyrants too”. They can only ever name, with any cred as to tyrant in the Big League, Hitler, who was far from a Conservative.
Toilet tries with Pinochet, but he’s small bickies really, only a few thousand deaths at most.
I don’t need to “play games” – in fact that’s exactly what you are doing … try reading histories about Churchill … you really do have a bee in your bonnet … frankly I don’t give a fuck what you “think” … give me some evidence …
Attacking my every word is pretty obvious what you’re attempting to do … I have been nice about it, I think …
And for your further edification …
You won’t find THAT, in any Communist Manifesto …
As,sb, pointed out, left, right, up, down if they are arseholes, they are arseholes and the plebs pay … often with their lives … Australians are generally moderate in their view of left and right …
… you of all people have seen, sreb, Ser Tee and me shift from left to centre … and on occasions back again – or even to the right if it deserves it … but its NOT extreme …
“These reforms are rushed and poorly constructed….No reasonable person could expect quality decisions to be made in these circumstances,” Mr Wilkie says.
I would certinly agree with that! Conroy said “years in development” and then gives the House a week!
Isn’t that what acolytes do though, sb? No matter what side their on …
That is why I’ve never joined a political party. I reckon I saw more of that attitude with the left, but I also lived through the Howard years. In the 2001 election I was so enraged by the Children Overboard scandal that I melted down at the polling place, abused the Liberals and tore up and stomped on their how-to-vote cards. It was kinda like acting out one of my rants here.
” The US never invaded any part of Vietnam. “
Are you sure about that Snacky. Originally lt was a civil war, Vietnam was ridding itself of the French colonial power. As the French departed, the yanks tried to replace themselves as the new colonial power, using the cold-war communist `threat` as the `excuse` to do so. You may remember other `excuses` the yank have used to invade and loot `saddam-posses-weapons-of`
Julia Bishop asked the PM today if the PM had spoken to independents re current court case legal fees
What could she mean ?
Not Craig again……………or maybe Peter………………??????
Does she know something ?
Where’s Wixxy to sort it all out and give it “meaning”
” TB’s trying to play the game of “Conservatives have tyrants too”. “
Snacky is ignoring all the current propped-up monsters colonial powers including the yanks have sponsored and/or installed around the world. South america has been near exclusively the result of monster backing, and military black-ops by the yanks. The Oil-region of Asia, the middle-east has had continual interference by colonial powers too, including the yanks. The conservative/democratic argument is irrelevant, both equally guilty.
This has to be an act of the gods…
‘BARNABY Joyce says he’s prepared to put himself forward as a replacement Nationals candidate in New England, setting the stage for an epic battle with independent Tony Windsor.’
staying the course
sbs1/pbs/aljazeera news says, decade without saddam not celebrated by iraqi`s. Most would have preferred a decade of relative safety under saddam than, decade under yanks of death and destruction. Multiple bombs have been detonated in Iraq today.
The US never invaded any part of Vietnam
Yes. I am sure of that.
” Yes. I am sure of that.”
There seems to have been a lot of dead yanks littering Vietnam back in the day. I guess you would also claim that Afghanistan, Iraq and Korea were not invaded by the yanks either. Hint, watch `Fog Of War`
‘BARNABY Joyce says he’s prepared to put himself forward as a replacement Nationals candidate in New England, setting the stage for an epic battle with independent Tony Windsor.’
Windsor won’t contest the election. The senile old goat would rather retire than risk losing to Joyce.
” Windsor won’t contest the election.”
Wrong splatter. Windsor has already said he will run. Oakeshott, l don`t know.
(Where is Laos?)
(….if his Party asks him to…makes the Torbay stench go away…on this and every 24-hour news-cycle day.)
” where is Laos.? ”
too bad they don`t have an `agent orange fact sheet` meta
“Windsor has already said he will run.”
Windsor has said a lot of things.
too bad they don`t have an `agent orange fact sheet` meta
Apparently, they do; and the blowback wasn’t pretty, by looks:
http://vietnam-war.commemoration.gov.au/aftermath/agent-orange.php
ABC News just reported that the government will withdraw the media bills.
It’s HUGE (and well deserved) defeat for an incompetent and dishonest Prime Minister.
Get rid of her.
Windsor and Oakshott both strayed from their conservative roots and will be punished by the electorate.
Choice … Barnaby or Windsor … no brainer for intelligent people … but Barnaby will romp home … a sign of times to come … welcome to JBP World …
I think its only right (excuse the pun) that people in other states should experience minii dictatorhip (’tis Oz -after all) … as Queensland did during JBP’s “reign” (for younger folk, think Mugabe) … and is now returning to with Noddy Newman … (Noddy’s “heroes”? – Menzies and JBP) …
Hmmm. State before individual. Yep, I think that’s exactly what you’d find in any Communist Manifesto.
I tell you what, Splatter, the current ALP have a lot of these covered.
Recently they’ve covered 5,8,10,14,15,20,21,23,and 24!!
457s are in 8, Conroy’s busy with 23!
You’re sounding desperate, paranoid and YOUNG … James, the electorate can change the government in this country every three years …If it didn’t we’d end up like Syria … have you ever fired a rifle? I might win!
Dickwit™
Let me start again …
James, the government is not the “enemy” nor am I … I’ve lived for many years being manipulated by the Labor Party and the Liberal/National Coalition, in many ways .. but my philosophy has always been twofold:
1. My children and grandchildren will be “contributing members to society” (and, I’m pleased to say, my children quote that to my children) …
2. Learn the system and use it to your advantage …
Whatever the dicks in government do … fuck ’em … look after your own … that’s what they do … all of ’em!
At the moment you’re an idealogue (idealist) … as was I … then I became a realist … as will you, now you have children … and was told that realists are fallen idealists … I was insulted at the time but … its true … I was also told that I was the angriest young – old man – they’d ever encountered …
Men seem to mature in their late twenties … women in their late twenties … that’s based on my own experience and watching family members … and research …
(BTW I was married at 21 … in the Army at 22 and missed my daughter learning to walk!)
Understand my comments or fight me … your choice … I’ll accomodate you either way …
Have you ever wondered why I write these posts – aimed at you … this is not the first time …
CORRECTIONS
my children quote that to my grandchildren
Men seem to mature in their late thirties
Mys one arrived and HE took precedence …
Following on from Meta …
‘Collectivism is defined as the theory and practice that makes some sort of group rather than the individual the fundamental unit of political, social, and economic concern. In theory, collectivists insist that the claims of groups, associations, or the state must normally supersede the claims of individuals.” — Stephen Grabill and Gregory M. A. Gronbacher
Hmmm. State before individual. Yep, I think that’s exactly what you’d find in any Communist Manifesto
So what’s yer point, PD? BTW where do you live? Do really think that individuals have more power than the state in Oz … 😆
Wilkie walks away….
For anyone who thinks
Here’s some food for thought …
“With over 1,500 eyewitnesses to the assassination unfortunately no two accounts match.”
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/killing-lincoln/videos/eyewitnesses/
(Maybe Windsor et al are liberals of some sort rather than conservatives; and maybe that’s where the ‘you’re either with us or against us’ mentality creeps into binary oversights of their independent political pluripotentials.)
“In theory, collectivists insist that the claims of groups, associations, or the state must normally supersede the claims of individuals.”
The funny thing is that the credo of the great libertarian John Stuart Mill is based on the same view: ‘the greatest good for the greatest number’ and, in some cases at least, will result in the sacrifice of an individual’s rights for the collective good.
Another great principle is ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you’ which can be seen as more individualistic. But that assumes that individuals would prefer to maximise their liberty. The trouble is that religious wierdos and leftists* my be happy being shackled by the law and expect others to be equally shackled as is the case with laws banning homosexuality or limiting free speech.
My view is that society should be ordered so that individuals have the greatest amount of liberty consistent with not infringing the liberties of others. This is the formulation most consistent with people taking responsibility for their own lives and making their own choices (or as TB wisely said “Whatever the dicks in government do … fuck ‘em … look after your own”).
* Leftism is really just another sentimental middle class religion.
Here’s some food for thought …
Is that why you quote everyone else … and have no individual thoughts?
Just watch Matrix …
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* Leftism is really just another sentimental middle class religion.
Thank, Christ, I’m agnostic then …. 🙂
The trouble is that religious wierdos and leftists*
Isn’t that statement contradictory? Most religious nutters I see and hear are defienitely right wing!
Speaking of RW nutters …
http://www.news.com.au/national-news/holes-appear-in-tony-abbotts-uni-life/story-fncynjr2-1226602057790
And the cronyism, nepotism saga continues in Queensland …
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/redcliffe-mp-scott-driscoll-has-been-caught-lying-to-parliament-about-phone-lines-installed-in-his-office/story-e6freoof-1226601982613
I don’t care which political party you follow, don’t expect much from any of them ….
For a while now I have been concerned about the importation of crass Americanisms into our political discourse. “Teabager” springs to mind as an example of this unfortunate trend.
This morning, while browsing the esteemed Roger’s Profanisaurus (Das Krapital edition), I had the good fortune to discover the cognate Australian expression, namely:
Patriotic Australians should refer to teabaggers as “Dilmah’s” or perhaps “Dilmah dunkers”.
abc1 has just cut to Crean discussing `Leadership` Kevin07 mentioned, titled `Labor_Leadership` (teabag_food)
abc1, Crean says, l have made it clear l won`t be standing as leader, l don`1t have the numbers.
abc1, Crean says, l am asking Prime`Meddler to call a spill of all leadership positions.