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Barack Obama: “Boston Bombers will feel the full Weight of Justice”

April 16, 2013

Chilling footage of the Boston bomb blast as it happened.

 

US President Barack Obama has pledged the full resources of the Federal government in helping Boston and in investigating the bombings that killed at least two people and injured dozens of others at the finish line of the Boston Marathon on Monday.

“The American people will say a prayer for Boston tonight,” Obama said in televised remarks. The president said he had spoken with congressional leaders and that all were united in dealing with the tragedy.

Obama cautioned that authorities were still investigating and that people should not jump to any conclusions before all of the facts are learned.

“But make no mistake,” Obama said. “We will get to the bottom of this and we will find out who did this. We’ll find out why they did this.”

Individuals and groups responsible “will feel the full weight of justice,” the president said.

“We will find out who this and we will hold them accountable,” he said.

Officials began questioning at least one person in connection with the explosions that tore through the finish line of the Boston Marathon, killing at least two people and injuring dozens more, officials said.

One of the day is reported to be an eight year old child.

Meanwhile, a third explosion was reported, but investigators later said it was just fire-related and unconnected to what was increasingly looking like a deliberate attack on one of the nation’s most celebrated sporting events.

A federal law enforcement official said authorities were questioning a Saudi national who was taken to a Boston hospital with injuries. The person was not identified as a suspect.

The official also said authorities are also “desperately seeking” a Penske rental truck seen leaving the race site. They further believe the explosive devices were small bombs placed in small receptacles and that at least one was detonated in a nearby trash can.

Meanwhile in the UK, the Metropolitan police has announced that it will urgently review security for this Sunday’s London Marathon in the wake of the bombs in Boston.

London Marathon officials have ruled out cancelling the event, in which approximately 37,500 people will run 26.2 miles from Blackheath, south-east London to the Mall, with an estimated 500,000 people lining the streets to watch them.

 

 

 

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223 Comments leave one →
  1. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 16, 2013 8:52 am

    Baptists at it again, I suppose?

    This site has catalogued 20,000 such events since 2001. Maybe it is time to look at the murderous religious beliefs that motivate people to kill in the name of religion.

  2. April 16, 2013 9:04 am

    At least Obama didn’t use the word “terror” in his press conference..

  3. TB Queensland permalink
    April 16, 2013 9:26 am

    Maybe it is time to look at the murderous religious beliefs that motivate people to kill in the name of religion.

    Now didn’t the President say NOT to jump to conclusions?

    There’s a lot of whackos in the states … and we keep importing the culture here …

  4. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 16, 2013 9:41 am

    “Now didn’t the President say NOT to jump to conclusions?”

    Of course he did. Obama always says that. Politicians these days are usually more concerned with Islamophobia than with the actual victims. He still doesn’t think Fort Hood was a terrorist attack.

    Others are more candid in their reporting.

    Obama knows a thing or two about domestic terrorism given that Bill Ayers gave him a leg up early in his career and hosted a fund raiser for him when he first stepped into state politics.

  5. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 16, 2013 9:44 am

    ” … and we keep importing the culture here …”

    We should not discriminate on the basis of religion when it comes to migration. We need to work at integration and and keep an eye on the fundamentalist end of the spectrum.

  6. April 16, 2013 9:47 am

    “Others are more candid in their reporting.”

    As someone said this morning, “The New York Post couldn’t accurately report a sunny day in Spring..”

  7. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 16, 2013 9:58 am

    Time will tell whether the NY Post had an accurate source. According to ABC(Aust) the White House is now calling it terrorism.

  8. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 16, 2013 10:03 am

    The attack has certainly heartened a few Baptists in Jordan:

    “The head of an extremist Jordanian Muslim Salafi group says he’s “happy to see the horror in America” after the explosions in Boston.”

  9. TB Queensland permalink
    April 16, 2013 10:17 am

    We should not discriminate on the basis of religion when it comes to migration.

    Another assumption – I was talking about the AMERICAN culture … (although it does have a high percentage of religious nutters)

    According to ABC(Aust) the White House is now calling it terrorism.

    What is it if it not terrorism?

  10. TB Queensland permalink
    April 16, 2013 10:19 am

    “The head of an extremist Jordanian Muslim Salafi group says he’s “happy to see the horror in America” after the explosions in Boston.”

    I’m sure he’s not the only one …

  11. TB Queensland permalink
    April 16, 2013 10:20 am

    OK, I’ll bite … why are Muslim Salafis now Baptists … did they believe in John?

  12. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 16, 2013 10:30 am

    I didn’t want to offend anyone. You can say whatever you like about christian groups like the Baptists and no one issues a fatwa or tries to put a hit on you.

  13. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    April 16, 2013 11:02 am

    So we should import more Baptists then………

  14. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 16, 2013 11:30 am

    Nah. They are pretty strange. My father’s side were part of a Baptist sect. I remember thinking full immersion baptisms were pretty cool. Also the fuckers don’t drink alcohol.

  15. April 16, 2013 11:47 am

    Yeah, coz the Timothy McVeighs of the world were baptists. 🙄

    Trained to see evil muslims instantly, like Bolt’s initial reaction to Anders Breivik. A Pavlovian response.

    Might be wise to wait for details, rather than get caught up in the jingobabbling.

  16. TB Queensland permalink
    April 16, 2013 11:57 am

    G’day Ser Tee, on the same page again I see … 😉

  17. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    April 16, 2013 12:00 pm

    Lets just hope whoever did it does not look Korean

  18. TB Queensland permalink
    April 16, 2013 12:01 pm

    Tiny nuclear!!!!

    Off t’ pictures now … Oblivion … see youse

  19. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    April 16, 2013 12:30 pm

    Of course we all must clearly realise that this is the work of a secret agency deep within the American government

  20. April 16, 2013 12:40 pm

    Obama is muslim, I bet whoever did it is hiding in his attic. 🙄

  21. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 16, 2013 12:49 pm

    Inside job alright. Obama got his old mate Bill Ayers to polish up his bombing skills.

  22. April 16, 2013 12:50 pm

    As if on cue…witness Bolt’s wishful conclusion jumping…quick, before he ‘rearranges’ it.

    Not the convolution of updates…& a penchant for always assuming his favourite foes first.

    http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/boston_marathon_bombed/

  23. April 16, 2013 12:51 pm

    * Note

  24. April 16, 2013 12:53 pm

    The Pavlovian responses in his comments thread are even greater illustration of a mindset.

  25. IPA address permalink
    April 16, 2013 1:17 pm

    Yeah, it’s probably best to wait for details before jumping to conclusions. Just for fun, though, here are my odds about various perpetrators being responsible …

    Salvation Army: 10,000 to 1
    Disgruntled member of the US armed forces: 25 to 1
    Disgruntled runner who failed to gain entry to the Boston Marathon: 250 to 1
    US Postal worker: 25 to 1
    Weather Underground: 80 to 1
    Weather Channel founder John Coleman: 5000 to 1
    Weather worrier/global warming activist: 50 to 1
    Right-wing nutjob: 10 to 1
    Left-wing nutjob: 10 to 1
    Baptist: 15 to 1
    Knights Templar: 300 to 1
    Anti-sports activists: 100 to1
    Muslim Fundamentalist/Jihadist: 1 to 100

  26. April 16, 2013 1:19 pm

    Pavlov rang his bell.

    You couldn’t help but salivate.

  27. IPA address permalink
    April 16, 2013 1:31 pm

    Like any good punter I’m just going on form.

  28. Ol' Sancty permalink
    April 16, 2013 1:44 pm

    Could be a Cathlick…..

  29. IPA address permalink
    April 16, 2013 1:56 pm

    Could be …

    Follower of any religion: 1 to 2
    Follower of any religion other than Islam: 5:1
    Christian:10 to 1
    Catholic: 20 to 1
    Buddhist: 250 to 1
    Hindu: 20 to 1
    Agnostic: 10 to 1
    Atheist: 10 to 1

  30. IPA address permalink
    April 16, 2013 2:01 pm

    Accidental explosion in a gas main: 10 to 1
    Ammunition cache explosion: 50 to 1
    Mossad: 250 to 1
    One or all of the following: Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades | Al-qaeda-Al-queda | Fatah-Fateh | Fatah Constitution | Hamas: 1 to 1

  31. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    April 16, 2013 3:05 pm

    If no one claims responsibility, the chances are that it is one or 2 of their own, home grown nutcases.

    Islamic extremists seem to prefer not to terrorise anonymously.

  32. Ol' Sancty permalink
    April 16, 2013 3:21 pm

    I still think it’s the Cathlicks……

  33. TB Queensland permalink
    April 16, 2013 3:50 pm

    I still think it’s the Cathlicks……

    FFS! James its spelled Catlicks … that’s why they all walk around with such mean looks on their faeces* – like splatterbums avatar … Holy Shit! I just realised … that IS sb!

    *Jes’ couldn’ae hel’ masel’ 😆

  34. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 16, 2013 4:34 pm

    “Pavlov rang his bell.
    You couldn’t help but salivate.”

    Don’t be so sensitive, old girl. There is nothing wrong with venturing an opinion on these matters. What’s your bet?

    When anyone does venture a view, the Pavlovian response is, of course, to denounce them: “Shhhh, don’t mention the war you greasy Islamophobe!”

  35. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 16, 2013 4:39 pm

    “Holy Shit! I just realised … that IS sb!”

    I’m pretty sure my gorgeous avatar is a whole lot prettier, tastier, tighter and less prolapsed than your fat hairy arse, TB! 😆

  36. Ol' Sancty permalink
    April 16, 2013 4:44 pm

    Definitely a Cathlick…….the multiple explosions, designed to maximise panic……got Cathlick written all over it. Also someone was heard to yell out “Peace be with you!!!!!”

  37. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    April 16, 2013 5:22 pm

    Its gonna be a Extreme Leftist for sure

    It always is………………….. They love violence

  38. TB Queensland permalink
    April 16, 2013 5:59 pm

    IPA

    Agnostic: 10 to 1
    Atheist: 10 to 1

    Strange, IPA, that atheists and agnostics have not been associated with terrorists acts (in my lifetime and knowledge) … but always happy to be enlightened …

    +++++++++++++++++++++

    Splatter @ 4:39

    Still demonstrating that “vision” … I can see your face … you’ll never see my arse!

    ++++++++++++++++++++

    James @ 4:44 Wally @ 5:22

    I had a couple of smart arse remarks for you guys too … but …

    … an eight year was killed ..? (last count, 3 dead144 injured)

    Time the attempted jokes – by all of us (includes me!) were self censored, methinks …

  39. public toilet permalink
    April 16, 2013 6:11 pm

    Yeah right.

    It’s Pavlovian to assert that Muslims aren’t the only nutjobs to undertake mass violence in the US.

    That’s clearly the same as being trained by Steyn & Bolt. 🙄

    Gmafb

  40. IPA address permalink
    April 16, 2013 6:14 pm

    Strange, IPA, that atheists and agnostics have not been associated with terrorists acts (in my lifetime and knowledge) … but always happy to be enlightened …

    Happy to oblige.

  41. el gordo permalink
    April 16, 2013 6:21 pm

    The LTTE is history, terrorism defeated in a final bloody massacre.

    The devices used in Boston were full of ball bearings, this should lead investigators to the bad guys.

  42. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 16, 2013 6:23 pm

    “It’s Pavlovian to assert that Muslims aren’t the only nutjobs to undertake mass violence in the US.”

    Who said they were?

  43. TB Queensland permalink
    April 16, 2013 6:42 pm

    Sri Lankan Tamil nationalism is the conviction of the Sri Lankan Tamil people, a minority ethnic group in the South Asian island country of Sri Lanka (formerly known as Ceylon), that they have the right to constitute an independent or autonomous political community. This idea has not always existed. Sri Lankan Tamil national awareness began during the era of British rule during the 18th century, as Tamil Hindu revivalists tried to counter Protestant missionary activity. The revivalists, led by Arumuga Navalar, used literacy as a tool to spread Hinduism and its principles.[1]

    Keep trying, tiger …

    BTW, your original list covered a few religions … atheists and agnostics might have been better listed as “others” … however associating ONLY agnostics and atheist with what was essentially a civil war is … quite frankly … silly … I think you’ll find that atheists and agnostics will more likely choose to fight in a war based upon logic rather than religious doctrine …

    The word terrorist is bandied about by governments – like the Sri Lankan – and often mean anyone who opposes their view and takes up arms …

    I don’t see atheists or agnostics bombing churches, synagogues, temples or mosques or sporting events … but I do see religious extremists bombing each other and innocent bystanders many being NEUTRAL atheists and agnostics … and the athiests and agnostics never seem to take revenge, ever noticed that?

    One of the world’s major problems has always been people who make societal impact decisions based upon a religious belief, generally based upon personal emotion and passion …

    There is a strange misconception by religious people who tolerate atheists and agnostics that they cannot be “good” people because they have not received the “word of God” …

    Well the good news is that I know I already live in heaven and I’m responsible for my actions – no one else … not God, not the church, not the priest, or minister, or rabbi, or imam … just little old me …

    The bad news is … religious nutters are trying to get to somewhere that no-one knows exists … at the expense of the innocents …

    Atheists and agnostics have no need to “argue” or demonstrate their faith … if we did … we really would make excellent terrorists … lucky, hey? 🙄

    Noice to see agnostics included …

  44. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 16, 2013 6:44 pm

    Atheists are the worst terrorists:

    Most Commos used terror to gain power as in the Bolsheviks Red Terror campaign of September and Ocober 1918

    And then there is Obama’s mate Bill Ayers and the Weather Underground

    And the Baader-Meinhof Gang

    And the Red Brigades

    And Organization 17 November

    And Shining Path

    And the fucking IRA

    And the Symbionese Liberation Army

  45. el gordo permalink
    April 16, 2013 6:54 pm

    During the Sri Lankan war the Tigers of Elam (Hindu) cut off the heads of opponents and stuck them on poles in downtown Columbo… to instil fear and horror in the Buddhist population.

    It had a big impact.

  46. April 16, 2013 6:59 pm

    Nice to see the Torie-Kids splattering unsubstantiated nonsense as usual. Has yank chickens come home to roost in the form disgruntled military personnel of no particular religion crossed their tiny minds.? #Oklahoma

  47. IPA address permalink
    April 16, 2013 7:09 pm

    Um, yes.

    “Disgruntled member of the US armed forces: 25 to 1”

  48. public toilet permalink
    April 16, 2013 7:24 pm

    Plenty of killing in the name of religion.

    Killing in the name of unreligiosity, not so much.

  49. IPA address permalink
    April 16, 2013 7:30 pm

    “Killing in the name of unreligiosity, not so much.”

    Depends whether you call communism as “unreligiosity”.

  50. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 16, 2013 7:33 pm

    Plenty prepared to kill in the name of their leftist religion. And all of the murderous communist regimes were militant atheists. They are the greatest mass murderers of all time!

  51. April 16, 2013 7:36 pm

    The Repugs will probably start beating the war drums that Osama bombed boston and he`s hiding in North Korea.

  52. April 16, 2013 7:43 pm

    Yeah, well done splatter, just ignore all the war-mongers that have been in power and creating crusade looking wars in the last decade.

  53. public toilet permalink
    April 16, 2013 7:48 pm

    Pretty sure that killing was done in the name of communism, not atheism.

    I guess you are trying to say that the word ‘atheist’ is synonymous with ‘communist’.

    That would be incorrect.

    Pretty long bow, even for a Beckian.

    Communism is a political movement. Atheism is not.

    Show me where communists killed with atheism as a primary motivation.
    In the right’s attempts to distort reality, they’d rather conflate atheism with Marxism & deflect attention away from the attrocities & nonsense of the religious…(unless it’s the moosies, who believe in a less refined version of the same nonsense)

  54. TB Queensland permalink
    April 16, 2013 7:59 pm

    LOL! Tug the strings and watch ’em jump … LOL!

    And the fucking IRA

    Understanding of history is extremely limited around here …

    If the UK decided to enforce the monarchy and literally take up rule of Australia or if we were invaded by another country – I’d become a member of the ARA – Australian Republican Army … and I’m not a Catlick … would that make me a terrorist?

    … the IRA, while mostly Catlicks just wanted freedom from English oppression … not terrorists at all … nationalists perhaps … but labelled terrorists because the Poms wouldn’t fk off and let them run their own country … religion was writ large in the conflict Catlick against Protestant (UK supporters) … a very complicated nasty, bloodthirsty war …

    They are the greatest mass murderers of all time!

    By that you mean Stalin and that is true but Stalin killed his OWN … next in line was Hitler a believer and he had a real problem with another religion … and the Shinto lot from Japan did pretty well in Asia (egg, they lopped of a few heads too!) … if you want the real bastards for massacre you only need to read the histories of the crusades … a legacy that we still suffer … and now taken off topic …

    But the look over there really didn’t achieve much … atheists/agnostic individuals don’t bomb folk … religious extremists and unhinged individuals do … in general atheists/agnostics are more tolerant … otherwise they might throw a few bombs around too … when did you last hear of an atheist group rioting against a religious group or firing a religious building …

  55. TB Queensland permalink
    April 16, 2013 8:03 pm

    And all of the murderous communist regimes were militant atheists

    Now your talking about regimes … again …

  56. IPA address permalink
    April 16, 2013 8:29 pm

    “Pretty sure that killing was done in the name of communism, not atheism.”

    So do we all agree that leftism is responsible for killing more people than any orher religion or ideology in the history of the world?

  57. TB Queensland permalink
    April 16, 2013 8:41 pm

    Fk you lot draw long bows … of course not … religion is responsible for killing more people in the world than any other cause … most wars have been fought for two main reasons … greed and creed …

    I said Stalin was … in modern history … but the Vatican probably has the record …

  58. April 16, 2013 8:43 pm

    Atheist`s just don`t believe in any sky-fairy mumbo jumbo, there is also political `atheists` too, who don`t believe any party`s mumbo jumbo, including, but not limited to, Labor, Greens, Torie-bags, communism, fascism, capitalism, or any other failed mantra.

  59. IPA address permalink
    April 16, 2013 8:54 pm

    Long Bow of Queensland professes to be a student of history. Many wars have been fought over religion, granted. But there was neither the population nor the technology to allow murders in the numbers leftists like Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot are responsible for. The numbers in places like North Korea are yet to be tallied.

  60. Evil Walrus of Palm Beach permalink
    April 16, 2013 10:22 pm

    3 to 1 odds that this nutcase believes in a bit of Chomsky .

  61. el gordo permalink
    April 16, 2013 10:33 pm

    Ball bearings wrapped around a small explosive device used to be popular in some parts of the Middle East….. just sayin’

  62. Evil Walrus of Palm Beach permalink
    April 16, 2013 10:42 pm

    So Chomsky as a child had a billycart that used ball bearings for wheels .

    And he wrote about it

  63. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 17, 2013 9:18 am

    I was replying to this bizarre and manifestly wrong proposition: “atheists and agnostics have not been associated with terrorists acts (in my lifetime and knowledge) … but always happy to be enlightened …”

    I listed not a few instances which involved atheists carrying out terrorist acts.

    Moving from idiocy to insanity we have this ignorant proposition:“religion is responsible for killing more people in the world than any other cause”

    The atheist communist regimes of last century killed over 100 million people. There is nothing in history which compare with that.

    “most wars have been fought for two main reasons … greed and creed …”

    This is another simplistic and rather dubious proposition. It doesn’t make much sense unless you stretch the meaning of “greed and creed” to include a desire for security, nationalism, racism and the hubris of the leftists who believe that Marxist ideas are so wonderful that they should be imposed on the rest of the world by violent revolution.

  64. Ol' Sancty permalink
    April 17, 2013 9:47 am

    I doubt that Ukrainians, Latvians, Lithuanians etc considered themselves “of Stalin”.

  65. Ol' Sancty permalink
    April 17, 2013 9:47 am

    I’d love to see some stats to back up the assertion that “the Vatican has the record”.

  66. el gordo permalink
    April 17, 2013 9:53 am

    Back to the ball bearings etc. and its straight out of the ‘how to’ manual found in Palestine.

    ‘The explosives used in the deadly Boston Marathon bombing were contained in 6-liter pressure cookers and hidden in black duffel bags on the ground, a person briefed on the investigation told The Associated Press on Tuesday.

    ‘One of the explosives contained shards of metal and ball bearings, and another contained nails, the person said.’

    Huffpo

  67. TB Queensland permalink
    April 17, 2013 11:13 am

    So the link is complete solid right wing Christian insanity beats left wing stupidity any day …

    The fogging, farting and smoke and mirrors is certainly creative (luv puns) as usual …

    Amazingly twisted mindset gathers here sometimes …

    Did I mention the story I heard about this bloke who got so pissed off with people he just flooded the whole planet – only left a half dozen alive … I mean it is just a story … isn’t it?

    I quite happily live next door to a young family of Bosnian muslims, at the back Catholics we’ll be off to Asia with next year, across the road, till recently, five Catholic nuns – one who became a good friend, recently visited us (she was transferred to Sydney) …

    Massacres by states (including the Vatican) don’t fall under the banner of terrorists (’cause the state in power determines WHO is a terrorist …

    … and in fact we were originally discussing individuals/groups … and their need to create chaos to control the mindset of nations …

    … my original contention being that atheists/agnostics don’t terrorise to promote atheism or agnosticism … certainly not these days in the West* … but religion still of all makes still stirs the pot …!

    *now we’ll go wandering back a century … and mix up religion/politics/economics/atheism/agnosticism … and have to defend religion … when their is no defence …

  68. el gordo permalink
    April 17, 2013 11:29 am

    ‘While pressure cooker bombs are more commonly utilized in Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Nepal; they have been seen before in domestic terror attacks, including the 2010 attempted bombing in Times Square.’

    Huffpo

  69. Ol' Sancty permalink
    April 17, 2013 12:01 pm

    So this record held by The Vatican………?

  70. April 17, 2013 12:05 pm

    It also takes a fair bit of hubris to keep prefixing ‘communist’ with ‘atheist’.

    The communist regimes you speak of were driven by communist ideology, not fucking Atheism .

    Stalin, for instance, carried out his terrors against a far broader spectrum than just the religious. Doctors & other intellectuals were on his list, among others; anyone who his megalomaniacal paranoia considered to be a threat, really. Not just individuals, entire ‘occupations’.
    It had fuck all to do with wanting to stamp out religion.

    Your demonising of the left with your examples holds some water, splatter. But attempting to cite atheism as a strong motivator in the killing tells me you are full of shit.

    It is amusing how repulsed by atheism defenders of religion become. To the point of irrationality.

  71. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 17, 2013 12:05 pm

    “I’d love to see some stats to back up the assertion that “the Vatican has the record”.”

    I think you’ll find that assertion was a guess based on prejudice. A little historical knowledge and a moment’s refection would demonstrate that the claim is impossible to make out. The Vatican was only created as a state in the 20th Century.

    You could go back to the Donation of Peppin in the eighth century or the gift of the Lateran Church by Constantine in the fourth century. But that doesn’t help much. There is no realistic way you will get close to the 100 million death toll of the commos in the 20th century.

    What have you got? The Spanish Inquisition, a few crusades and the persecution of some heretics like the Cathars and Albigensians.

    The real issue here is the role of religion and other irrational belief systems in sanctioning killings. It is bad enough when religions do it. In the 20th century the commos believed that violent revolution and the liquidation of the bourgeoisie was necessary to bring about the perfect society. Sadly all we got a lot of broken eggs but no omelette.

    It is no good saying that Stalin was just one madman. It was also Lenin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, Che, Mugabe the Kim family, virtually all of them. Leftists need control to carry out their programs. They need to wipe out their class enemies and all who stood in the way of the revolution, whether you call them bourgeoisie or Robber Barons. And their pitiless logic allowed them to persecute and kill without compassion or mercy.

  72. IPA address permalink
    April 17, 2013 12:06 pm

    You’re wasting your time Ol’Sancty. All you’re gonna get is “Look over there, a squirrel!”

  73. April 17, 2013 12:09 pm

    Pretty sure it wasn’t a powerful cabal of atheists helping Nazi war criminals escape to South America after the second world war.

    It’s not atheist institutions abusing their positions of responsibility molesting children worldwide & then covering up or shifting perps around either.

    The Vatican, on the other hand…

  74. April 17, 2013 12:12 pm

    “The real issue here is the role of religion and other irrational belief systems in sanctioning killings.”

    Indeed.

    So where were those killings done in the name of not believing in made up shit again?

    Atheism had fuck all to do with it.

  75. Ol' Sancty permalink
    April 17, 2013 12:26 pm

    Give em time, Toilet. Pedophiles are attracted to institutions that give them ready access to kids. The institutions don’t seek them out.

    And don’t pretend atrocities weren’t committed in the name of atheism. You can’t argue religious motivation in historic and current conflict yet deny anti religious sentiment in others when it suits.

  76. April 17, 2013 12:50 pm

    Yes I can.

    So where are these monolithic institutions of atheists?…there are none.

    So what atrocities were committed in the name of Atheism? precisely.

    If you are still trying to conflate communism with atheism, you are a desperate obfuscator.

    Seems like some of you are suggesting that religion is necessary to have morals or compassion. Obviously, that is total bilge.

    Y’all love to spank the moosies, but get cut up defending your own myth clubs. I think the lot of you are as wrong as eachother.

  77. April 17, 2013 12:56 pm

    “The institutions don’t seek them out.”

    Perhaps not, but the Catholic Church does a pretty abhorrent job of covering it up, denying it & shifting the abusers to another diocese, at times.

  78. Ol' Sancty permalink
    April 17, 2013 1:06 pm

    If you are still trying to conflate communism with atheism, you are a desperate obfuscator.
    Why? You appear happy to conflate Western Democracy with Christianity.

  79. April 17, 2013 1:21 pm

    Nice.

    Where did I do that?

    Now you really are getting desperate.

    So, does that mean you are indeed still trying to conflate atheism with communism?

    Also, seeing as how you badgered TB for answers…

    So where are these monolithic institutions of atheists?…

    So what atrocities were committed in the name of Atheism?

    So where were those killings done in the name of not believing in made up shit again?

  80. Ol' Sancty permalink
    April 17, 2013 1:33 pm

    No you didn’t really. It was a stupid response.

    But you can’t deny the links between communism and atheism. You can’t deny the atheist writings of Marx etc and deny the part they played in the atrocities of Stalin, Mao etc.

    Sure, you can be a peaceful, even tolerant, atheist, but not to any greater extent than you can be a peaceful tolerant Christian. Indeed, peace and tolerance is at the heart of Christ’s teachings and any divergence from that could therefore be described as contradictory to Christianity.

  81. Ol' Sancty permalink
    April 17, 2013 1:42 pm

    And in answer to your specific questions…. Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot…..

  82. Ol' Sancty permalink
    April 17, 2013 1:43 pm

    And I don’t have an answer from TB…..strangely

  83. Ol' Sancty permalink
    April 17, 2013 1:54 pm

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/8885481/after-the-new-atheism/

    This article goes a long way to explaining some of what I think in the atheist/theist debate/conflict.

  84. April 17, 2013 2:14 pm

    “But you can’t deny the links between communism and atheism”

    Yes I can. Because they are spurious, at best

    “Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot”

    Bullshit, bullshit & bullshit…

    Once again, you are trying to strongly tie atheism into communism. Utter crap. Go read about Stalin, Mao & Pol Pot…their motivations were not derived from atheism; no matter how much you’d like to push the guilt by association angle.

    “Indeed, peace and tolerance is at the heart of Christ’s teachings and any divergence from that could therefore be described as contradictory to Christianity.”

    You religious apologists are hilarious. When someone, or a group, promotes terrible misdeeds in the name of their religion (a not uncommon occurence) , all of a sudden, ‘they’re not true christians’…(do you extend this logic to all muslims, btw?)…even though, their misdeeds are specifically carried out in the name of religion.

    “You can’t deny the atheist writings of Marx etc and deny the part they played in the atrocities of Stalin, Mao etc. ”

    Yes, I can. Because Marxism absolutely does not have atheism at its core. You are trying to make it all one dimensional, it leads me to wonder how much you actually do know about Stalin et al.

    Atheism isn’t a political movement. Communism is. Not that hard to comprehend, really.

    You guys are funny. You do realise that not every ‘leftist’ is an atheist? 🙄
    Nowhere, have large groups assembled in the name of atheism & gone on to commit mass murder to further its cause.

    Full of shit.

  85. April 17, 2013 2:16 pm

    You didn’t answer my questions at all, btw.

    So what atrocities were committed in the name of Atheism? precisely.

  86. April 17, 2013 2:19 pm

    Hardly surprising that Theo Hobson resonates with you.

    I just checked out some of the other bullshit god defending he’s written for the Spectator.

    Confirmation bias writ large, from him & you.

  87. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 17, 2013 2:31 pm

    “So where were those killings done in the name of not believing in made up shit again?
    Atheism had fuck all to do with it.”

    This is a different point to TB’s point which was: “atheists and agnostics have not been associated with terrorists acts (in my lifetime and knowledge)”

    That is what I was replying to, and my answers were directly on point. Maybe TB meant to qualify is proposition or meant it in some other way, but as it is written it is a ridiculous proposition.

    You have a different point for which I have some sympathy. Atheists don’t have anything in common apart from not believing in something. They have little else in common. It is only recently that they have started to take on the demeanour of a religion as we saw a few years back when Dawkins addressed throngs of chanting acolytes.

    I don’t disrespect atheists. I had strongly agnostic, if not atheistic, beliefs for many years. It is fundamentally important for people to consider such issues and live their lives by their own lights. Anything else is dishonest. If people don’t have that opportunity then they are not being treated as human beings. The ability to choose your own beliefs and live your life accordingly is fundamental to human freedom and is what made the US (despite its other shortcomings) such a radically great country at its foundation.

    I am a big fan of The Levellers and their song One Way: “There is only one way of life and that is your own, your own, your own!”

    Now, the problem with Marxists is that their philosophy is materialist and as such atheistic. Once regimes believe that religion is the opium of the people AND they decide that religion is to be banned then I think it is reasonable to attribute the consequent persecution of religious people to the atheism of the persecutors. In that sense they are little different from regimes which seek to impose one religion and to persecute both atheists and heretics.

  88. TB Queensland permalink
    April 17, 2013 3:24 pm

    i> Alan Jones said he believed those responsible for the horrific scenes yesterday were students.

    ”I wouldn’t be surprised if this was a conspiracy among students, left wing radical students in Boston,” Jones, from Sydney’s 2GB radio, told the Seven Network’s Sunrise program

    Now, the problem with Marxists is that their philosophy is materialist and as such atheistic. Once regimes believe that religion is the opium of the people AND they decide that religion is to be banned then I think it is reasonable to attribute the consequent persecution of religious people to the atheism of the persecutors. In that sense they are little different from regimes which seek to impose one religion and to persecute both atheists and heretics.

    Your fkn around with nonsense … sb

    Your confusing political dictators with religious freedom (ie believe, don’t, possible) …

    Your painting anyone from the left of politics as a Marxist and an atheist … the Russian Orthodox Church would disagree …

    So by that standard anyone from the right and a believer is a Nazi … see how silly it gets …

    The acts of terrorism I refer to are those similar to yesterday’s – individuals and small radical groups – which I’m sure you knew … you and your “team” decided to expand the mass murder/massacre theory in an obvious “look over there” (as you like to use so often) …

    I said this morning (before I went out – just back … James) this:

    … my original contention being that atheists/agnostics don’t terrorise to promote atheism or agnosticism … certainly not these days in the West* … but religion still of all makes still stirs the pot …!

    As for this, sb …

    I think you’ll find that assertion was a guess based on prejudice. A little historical knowledge and a moment’s refection would demonstrate that the claim is impossible to make out. The Vatican was only created as a state in the 20th Century.

    I suggest you take heed of your own words … in fact in medieval times European the pope was involved in many wars …

    I rarely “guess” and while I may appear prejudiced its not with the followers so much as the lies and deceit of organised religions in general …

    The Papal States were territories in the Italian peninsula under the sovereign direct rule of the Pope, from the 500s until 1870. They were among the major states of Italy from roughly the sixth century until the Italian Peninsula was unified in 1861 by the Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia …

    Over several campaigns in the mid-10th century, the German ruler Otto I conquered northern Italy; Pope John XII crowned him emperor (the first so crowned in more than forty years) and the two of them ratified the Diploma Ottonianum, which guaranteed the independence of the Papal States. Yet over the next two centuries, Popes and Emperors squabbled over a variety of issues, and the German rulers routinely treated the Papal States as part of their realms on those occasions when they projected power into Italy. As the Gregorian Reform worked to free the administration of the church from imperial interference, the independence of the Papal States increased in importance. After the extinction of the Hohenstaufen dynasty, the German emperors rarely interfered in Italian affairs. In response to the struggle between the Guelphs and Ghibellines, the treaty of Venice made official the independence of Papal States from the Holy Roman Empire in 1177. By 1300, the Papal States, along with the rest of the Italian principalities, were effectively independent …

    … Papal responsibilities were often (as in the early 16th century) in conflict. The Papal States were involved in at least 3 wars in the first 2 decades.[4][5] Pope Julius II, the “Warrior Pope”, fought on their behalf. The Reformation began in 1517. Before the Holy Roman Empire fought the Protestants, its soldiers (including many Protestants), sacked Rome as a side effect of battles over the Papal States.[6] A generation later the armies of king Philip II of Spain defeated those of Pope Paul IV over the same issues.[7]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_States

    But once again we digress …

    BTW my interest is in modern political/history … I just dabble a bit in the earlier centuries …

    Here’s a link for, James …

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll#Other_lists_organized_by_death_toll

  89. April 17, 2013 3:39 pm

    “The ability to choose your own beliefs and live your life accordingly is fundamental to human freedom and is what made the US (despite its other shortcomings) such a radically great country at its foundation.”

    I tend to agree, but I think they’ve bastardised it all along the way with American Exceptionalism.

    “Once regimes believe that religion is the opium of the people AND they decide that religion is to be banned then I think it is reasonable to attribute the consequent persecution of religious people to the atheism of the persecutors.”

    I agree that banning religion is unwarranted & unrealistic.
    I don’t think that the oppression of the religious under those regimes was borne from atheism though. As I said above, Stalin, in particular, persecuted a broad spectrum of groups of the population, not out of spite for religion but because of paranoid fears that they were an organisational threat to his absolute power. It was a trademark of his rule, which he conducted beneath a whole lot of Marxist PR rhetoric.

    I still think it’s a long bow to conflate communism & atheism. But I do concur with most of your above comment.

    I should say, if it does turn out to be Islamic extremism behind the recent bombings, then I utterly condemn it; I hold no love for radical religion of any stripe. That said, anyone who would see innocent civilians as legitimate targets, for whatever reason, stands condemned; it shouldn’t even have to be said.

    My initial comment on this thread was only to point out that reflexively assuming it was muslims, before the smoke has even cleared & any detail is known, is a trait found amongst those who are likely to see evil moosies everywhere.

    I well remember similar conclusion jumping from Bolt & kindred minions as details of the horrific slaughter of Breivik began to be made public. That started with a bombing too.
    When it became apparent that Breivik was in fact a far right loon, with a far right loon’s manifesto in writing, then Bolt began obfuscating & calling him a lunatic etc (I think he was eventually proven sane?)…rather than associate him with much of the same dross about Islam & immigration that Bolt pens himself (& potentially influences people like Breivik).

    It reminds me of snacty’s bizarre assertion that when christians do bad things, they’re not really christians…even though the individuals are certainly strongly claiming to be christians. To follow that logic, there’s no such thing as a bad christian…which is patently bullshit.

  90. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 17, 2013 3:47 pm

    TB: “You’re painting anyone from the left of politics as a Marxist and an atheist …”

    1. I did not do that. If you believe otherwise, show me where. Did you even read the statement of mine that you quoted? My criticism was not of “anyone from the left”. Here is the relevant bit:

    Once regimes believe that religion is the opium of the people AND they decide that religion is to be banned then I think it is reasonable to attribute the consequent persecution of religious people to the atheism of the persecutors.

    How on earth does that apply to “anyone from the left”???? I capitalised “AND” so that even people of limited intelligence would realise that there are two criteria which must be satisfied for my conclusion to apply.

    2. I did respond to your statement “atheists and agnostics have not been associated with terrorists acts (in my lifetime and knowledge)”

    Funnily enough you did not address this at all in your extensive reply. Do you still stand by that statement or not?

    3. When you answer that you might then tell me how all of the deaths (even including political wars involving the papal states) involves anything like the 100 million the communists knocked off last century. There is no reasonable basis for that claim at all.

  91. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    April 17, 2013 4:12 pm

    Alan Jones reckons this act of terror was carried out by a radical right wing foreign student.

    That’s good enough for me

    Especially coming after he yesterday successfully drew a link between child swimming pool drownings and the Federal Government carbon tax.

  92. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 17, 2013 4:22 pm

    “I don’t think that the oppression of the religious under those regimes was borne from atheism though.”

    Here is a discussion of this issue. The persecution of religion began immediately after the Bolshies took over, well before Stalin came to power.

    Soviet policy toward religion was based on the ideology of Marxism-Leninism, which made atheism the official doctrine of the Soviet Union. Marxism-Leninism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and the elimination of religion.

    Patriarch Tikhon of Moscow excommunicated the Soviet leadership on January 19, 1918 (Julian Calendar) for conducting this campaign. In retaliation the regime arrested and killed dozens of bishops, thousands of the lower clergy and monastics, and multitudes of laity.[31] The seizing of church property over the next few years would be marked by a brutal campaign of violent terror.[32]

  93. April 17, 2013 4:51 pm

    The persecution of all kinds of groups began immediately after the bolshies took power.

    Was that because of atheism too? I say no. Bolshevism/Marxism, whatever you want to call it, was much bigger than being irreligious. I’m sure you know this. It was, at its heart, a class conflict.

    Trying to attribute the millions dead under communism to some sort of strong atheist influence is totally disingenuous.
    It does little to deflect from those who kill in the name of their religion, a feature of many bloody conflicts throughout recorded human history.

  94. TB Queensland permalink
    April 17, 2013 4:58 pm

    Wally, the quote says LEFT not RIGHT …

    Alan Jones reckons this act of terror was carried out by a radical right wing foreign student.

    That’s good enough for me

    ”I wouldn’t be surprised if this was a conspiracy among students, left wing radical students in Boston,” Jones, from Sydney’s 2GB radio, told the Seven Network’s Sunrise program

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    sb

    Funnily enough you did not address this at all in your extensive reply. Do you still stand by that statement or not?

    … and for the third time …

    The acts of terrorism I refer to are those similar to yesterday’s – individuals and small radical groups – which I’m sure you knew … you and your “team” decided to expand the mass murder/massacre theory … (look over there writ extremely large) …

    … my original contention being that atheists/agnostics don’t terrorise to promote atheism or agnosticism … certainly not these days in the West* … but religion, of all makes,* still stirs the pot …!

    (*edited grammar)

    BTW, these little lines really add a nice personal touch to your commentary, sb …

    “”so that even people of limited intelligence””

    “”I think you’ll find that assertion was a guess based on prejudice.”””

    “”” A little historical knowledge and a moment’s refection “””

    No comment on the “history” of the Papal History I posted/linked … but of course you’d argue the technicality of the term Vatican … not the fact of the Papal states warring …

    I’d better have a bit of refection (sic), I think …

  95. el gordo permalink
    April 17, 2013 5:10 pm

    Interesting debate, humans kill each other all the time and even mass murder remains popular in the 21st century.

    Whether for political or religious reasons, any excuse to misbehave, homo sapiens are little more than glorified apes.

    And recent research suggests we don’t learn from our mistakes because of a flaw in the brain, which adds weight to TB’s theory that history repeats itself.

  96. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 17, 2013 5:11 pm

    “Bolshevism/Marxism, whatever you want to call it, was much bigger than being irreligious. I’m sure you know this.”

    True, but atheism was a central component of the theory. There was a deliberate and important policy of weaning the masses from their opiate religion.

    “Trying to attribute the millions dead under communism to some sort of strong atheist influence is totally disingenuous.”

    I’m not doing that. I am trying to look at your question – did the atheist beliefs result in persecutions. I found an explicit policy based on atheism and the murder of clerics and religious laity based on that policy. The point of this is to show that some atheists are motivated by atheism to kill in the name of atheism.

    I also looked at the way belief in communism (not just the atheistic attributes of communism) as the way to a better society was used to justify the murder of millions. But that was addressing a different issue.

  97. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 17, 2013 5:38 pm

    “… and for the third time …”

    That is a different statement to the one you made and I called out as being false, namely “atheists and agnostics have not been associated with terrorists acts (in my lifetime and knowledge)”

    So, again, do you stand by that statement or not?

    “BTW, these little lines really add a nice personal touch to your commentary, sb …”

    I was frustrated because you refused to answer the simple question I put to you and because you misrepresented my argument, which you obviously have no intention of acknowledging. You said: “You’re painting anyone from the left of politics as a Marxist and an atheist …”. Clearly that is wrong. Why not just admit it?**

    “No comment on the “history” of the Papal History I posted/linked”

    In fact I said: “When you answer that you might then tell me how all of the deaths (even including political wars involving the papal states) involves anything like the 100 million the communists knocked off last century. There is no reasonable basis for that claim at all.”

    Of course you haven’t attempted to answer that point.

    And don’t act as though I was holding you to the creation of the Vatican in the 20th Century. I was happy for you to go back to the earliest time the church had any real power in the fourth century. You still couldn’t justify your claim. I said:

    “You could go back to the Donation of Peppin in the eighth century or the gift of the Lateran Church by Constantine in the fourth century. But that doesn’t help much. There is no realistic way you will get close to the 100 million death toll of the commos in the 20th century.”

    You will recall that the Donation of Pepin (yes I misspelt his name earlier) was the precursor of the Papal States.

    **[Also note that when I quoted that statement of yours in an earlier comment I did not smugly point out that you used “yore” instead of “you’re”. I just quietly fixed it in the quote without trying to score cheap points. You on the other hand had obviously run out of logical arguments and resorted to a cheap shot with “refection”. So yes, a bit of reflection wouldn’t hurt you.]

  98. April 17, 2013 6:16 pm

    “I also looked at the way belief in communism (not just the atheistic attributes of communism) as the way to a better society was used to justify the murder of millions. ”

    That is pretty much how I see it.

  99. TB Queensland permalink
    April 17, 2013 6:22 pm

    So, again, do you stand by that statement or not?

    Intimidation … generally demonstrates an emotional state …

    Re …

    “atheists and agnostics have not been associated with terrorists acts (in my lifetime and knowledge)”

    However I’ll try logic again … and attempt to simplify my original statement …

    I have no evidence of an atheist or agnostic organisation or individual in recent history (ie since the end of WWII) … dropping bombs in garbage cans to highlight that if everyone doesn’t become an atheist or agnostic … they will continue to terrorise societies until they do …

    And FYI … politically, I’m not a Marxist, communist or socialist … I do not support the ALP or any other political party … in fact I can get to the Pearly Gates, apparently … I was baptised when I was seven … whether they’ll let me in is another question … but if there is something after this … and I live in “heaven” now … I’ll be surprised, interested and always do the best I can …

    In those famous words – I AM ME!

    But just for you …

    The past, with its crimes, its follies, and its tragedies flashes away. I see the Russian soldiers standing on the threshold of their native land, guarding the fields which their fathers tilled from time immemorial. I see them guarding their homes where mothers and wives pray—ah, yes, for there are times when all pray—for the safety of their loved ones, the return of the bread-winner, of their champion, of their protector. I see the ten thousand villages of Russia where the means of existence is wrung so hardly from the soil, but where there are still primordial human joys, where maidens laugh and children play

    I strongly suspect your a bog fan of this bloke …

  100. TB Queensland permalink
    April 17, 2013 6:25 pm

    I strongly suspect your a bog fan of this bloke …

    Either the keyboard or Freud took a hand in that! LOL! change bog ta big … apologies to any Irish listeners … 😉

  101. April 17, 2013 6:26 pm

    Strangely, I was baptised too; Lutheran.

    It was done by paternal grandparents before I was old enough to understand or object.

    If I could unholy myself, I would. 😆

  102. TB Queensland permalink
    April 17, 2013 6:32 pm

    Toillette, think we already have – just posting on this blog …! 😆

    Like playing with crusaders …

    ++++++++++++

    OT

    Ser T, we haven’t watched Series Two yet – we lent (is that exclusively religious?) our Series One BD to my Teutonic mate and haven’t got them back yet! His 15 yo told us its predictable … when the bonking stops there’s a beheading coming up … chuckle … both big fans … my mate’s wife isn’t and she didn’t like Deadwood either …

  103. April 17, 2013 6:37 pm

    As you’d know, having read the books, it’s not that predictable.

    I’m 3 eps into Season 3 at the moment. Can’t wait for the Red Wedding!

    Khaleesi is just about to ‘buy’ The Unsullied in Astapor…happy times, death & conflagration ahead!

    Poor Old Jeeor Mormont. 😦

  104. April 17, 2013 6:42 pm

    Also, they’ve cut a lot of great characters & plotlines from the HBO production. This is disappointing, but probably necessary to enable its ongoing presence on the screen.

    Did you know Ciaran Hinds is playing Mance Rayder?

  105. April 17, 2013 7:16 pm

    A Catholic friend of mine once got quite agitated when I couldn’t tell him what religious denomination I was.

    It was like “So are you Church of England or what?”

    I couldn’t answer, and said “I really don’t know..”

    And added that I really don’t care, “I’m not interested in Christianity at all.”

    This seemed like a completely alien concept to him.

    And despite his quite considerable intelligence, served to remind me how some people are just so deeply brainwashed with religious indoctrination.

    It has such a profound influence on their own sense of self and how they view others.

    As Snacty personifies here..

  106. TB Queensland permalink
    April 17, 2013 7:17 pm

    As you’d know, having read the books, it’s not that predictable.

    yep I know … I just thought that was very intelligent/funny statement from a 15 yo … still he goes to a Catlick school and is constantly correcting the “falsities” of history from his teachers … his father his a reader of WWII political/military history too … his library has vastly improved my education … but only those in English … he can read BOTH the bastard!

    … have great discussions with him … (ten years my junior) .. but as he says, “my brother from another mother!” …

    Did you know Ciaran Hinds is playing Mance Rayder? No, but what a great choice!

  107. Ol' Sancty permalink
    April 17, 2013 7:48 pm

    The Commies killed the religious because they were religious. Atheism is key to Communism. Here’s the thing, the IRA would still have been bombing Poms if they’d been Catholic. The Commies were more religiously motivated than the IRA. I’m sorry if it doesn’t fit the narrative, but there are cnts among the atheists too. And obviously greater intolerance, probably on a level with Islamists.

  108. TB Queensland permalink
    April 17, 2013 7:57 pm

    Atheism is key to Communism … And obviously greater intolerance, probably on a level with Islamists.

    Jesus fkn wept and no wonder … I rest my case …

    For the record, James, you live in a secular democracy …

    And I’m just a motor mechanic … 😯 😯

    Astounding comment of the year …

  109. April 17, 2013 8:00 pm

    “Atheism is key to Communism”

    🙄

    What, like in the way that “christianity is key to conservatism?”

  110. April 17, 2013 8:01 pm

    In other words, you don’t have to be a cunt to be a christian, but it helps.

  111. IPA address permalink
    April 17, 2013 8:11 pm

    Ya don’t have to be communist to be an atheist, but ya have to be atheist to be a communist.

  112. TB Queensland permalink
    April 17, 2013 8:18 pm

    … but ya have to be atheist to be a communist.

    Obviously some folk really need more education …

  113. el gordo permalink
    April 17, 2013 8:30 pm

    Stalin began to pull down the churches and religious nutters went underground, only to resurface with the demise of Communism.

    Communists are not necessarily atheist, but it would have helped.

  114. IPA address permalink
    April 17, 2013 8:31 pm

    “Obviously some folk really need more education …”

    How so?

  115. IPA address permalink
    April 17, 2013 8:32 pm

    “religious nutters went underground”

    The religious nutters were anti-communist, hence their need to go underground.

  116. TB Queensland permalink
    April 17, 2013 8:52 pm

    The religious nutters were anti-communist, hence their need to go underground.

    you called ’em nutters … astounding …

    … you don’t have to be an atheists to be communist … that’s your assumption … communism is a political belief … not a religious belief … the Wehrmacht suffered the same misunderstanding … and shot everyone who was a commissar …

    That’s like an invading army calling me a Christian because I live in Australia and shooting me … or a Liberal because the libs are in government …

    Religion may be a blanket across the world … but atheists and agnostics live in all societies – equally …

    FYI my bookshelf includes The Bible, The Quran, Buddhist text and the Tanakh …

  117. IPA address permalink
    April 17, 2013 8:57 pm

    “you don’t have to be an atheists to be communist … that’s your assumption”

    That’s the opposite of what I said. The rest of your babble is just as meaningless.

  118. el gordo permalink
    April 17, 2013 9:24 pm

    ‘The religious nutters were anti-communist, hence their need to go underground.’

    Many would have converted to the Communist faith to avoid a Gulag future, but its extraordinary that Christianity was resurrected after more than half a century.

  119. Ol' Sancty permalink
    April 17, 2013 9:32 pm

    TB, as usual, you haven’t made a case.

  120. April 17, 2013 9:43 pm

    ” The Commies killed the religious because they were religious. Atheism is key to Communism.”
    Snacy, Atheists don`t cluster together making demands that `others-believe-whatever`. Anything claiming to be `atheism` while making demands on others, means you will have to look harder, you will then find the cult is fascism, communism, another religion, or Tories. As a general rule, atheists don`t congregate, or try to convert dog-botherers to believe anything. We are happy to leave them to their delusions.

  121. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 17, 2013 9:44 pm

    TB: “Intimidation …”

    So its intimidation to ask whether you stand by your statement? Really?

    “However I’ll try logic again …

    That would be a nice change.

    and attempt to simplify my original statement …”

    No need to simplify it. It is plain enough. What you want to do is to walk back the dog. You’ve over-reached and you want to qualify your statement. Look that is fine by me. You should have just said so. We all do it sometime or other. Just admit you screwed up and move on. Oh wait, you are chronically incapable of admitting error. So I guess that means no acknowledgement of how you mischaracterised my position and no admission that you can’t back up your argument about the Vatican having the record for the number of deaths either.

    But don’t worry too much about this. I know your form, and in the scheme of things your a good guy. Just a bit stubborn.

  122. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 17, 2013 10:08 pm

    TB: “… you don’t have to be an atheists to be communist …”

    Depends on your definition of communism. However, it is pretty hard to be a Marxist and believe in god. Marx said “The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions.”

    In fact the basic error of Marx, and of many of his intellectual heirs, is that they don’t understand original sin. Their failure to understand human nature has resulted in the failure of their system.

    Human nature is flawed. Man is not perfectible. Changing society will not lead to ‘socialist man’ and the withering away of the state.

    And just remember TB, Jesus loves you.

  123. April 18, 2013 12:19 am

    “The Commies killed the religious because they were religious.”

    Errr…and what about the larger proportion of the population put to death because they were things other-than-religious?…or are you now contorting it into everyone-ever-killed-by-a-commo-was-religious-and-they-were-killed-solely-because-they-were-religious?

    * shakes head

    “Atheism is key to Communism.”

    Getting more desperate as the day got longer I see Theo Hobson snacty? 😯 …outstanding hyperbole of the year, indeed!

    “The Commies were more religiously motivated than the IRA. I’m sorry if it doesn’t fit the narrative, but there are cnts among the atheists too. And obviously greater intolerance, probably on a level with Islamists.”

    Did some atheist recently upset you by pointing out the lunacy of blind subservience to unsubstantiable stories from beyond the Dark Ages, diddums.

    Well trained by Pavlov, good godboy.

    ‘Greater intolerance’!…if that don’t beat all. 😆

  124. April 18, 2013 12:25 am

    Jesus doesn’t love you, TB.

    I he ever existed, his biomass degraded to dust a couple of thousand years ago.

    Funny how everyone can see that Scientology is a colossal, man made wank. But the devotees of the Abrahamic religions still take their own made up fables so seriously.

  125. April 18, 2013 12:35 am

    “Their failure to understand human nature has resulted in the failure of their system.

    Human nature is flawed. Man is not perfectible. Changing society will not lead to ‘socialist man’ and the withering away of the state. ”

    I agree with all of that, but I think it has zero to do with any biblical notion of sin, original or otherwise.

    Subjugating an entire population is never going to work, long term. It wouldn’t matter what ideology was trying it on.

    Pretty fkn obvious.

  126. April 18, 2013 12:38 am

    the Scientology delusion hasn`t had their crusades tho dunny _ less warfare

  127. April 18, 2013 12:41 am

    “probably on a level with Islamists”

    Radical Islam (not Islam as a whole, although I know you guys love to see it that way…cough, Pavlov, cough…) is the epitome of intolerant religious conservatism.

    Atheism denotes no belief in god. Period.

    Atheism is about as far away from radical Islam as you can get.

    I love how myth defenders try & call other people religious as some kind of smear. I’m quite sure that the irony is lost on them.

  128. April 18, 2013 12:42 am

    Yeah, and Battlefield Earth was nowhere near as mind numbingly boring or vindictive a book as the bible, 730.

  129. jilly permalink
    April 18, 2013 6:00 am

    Boston Explosion Timing Finally Explained

    Law enforcement in Boston have released a possible explanation for the late timing of the two explosions which occurred during this week’s marathon.

    (I-Newswire) April 17, 2013 – With a suspect in custody, police in Boston have announced what appears to be a suspicious connection between the placement and timing of the two bombs that grievously injured over a hundred people while killing several bystanders, and five people present in the area at the time of the blasts who reside in the same small town outside of the Boston area.

    While details are limited, a spokesman with the investigation stated that a suspect currently in custody has revealed having a personal relationship with two women who finished the marathon at around three and a half hours, and fours hours, respectively. The blasts occurred as both women remained in the area of the finish line after having recently finished the marathon.

    Both women are from a small community where the suspect is also a longtime resident. Both women are married, with their husbands present in the viewing area near the finish line. None of the four suffered injuries from the blasts, but all four are believed to have witnessed to it before fleeing the area.

    Police caution that while the suspect they have in custody is being held with good reason, and the connection to the two women has been verified, they cannot at this time verify with certainty that the suspect was indeed involved in building or detonating the two bombs.

    Boston police are warning the public not to attempt vigilante justice against the suspect if released or at any time in the future, as this may simply be a case of a mentally disturbed individual claiming credit for a terrorist act to serve personal delusions of grandeur or a persecution complex.

    Other possible reasons for the suspect claiming responsibility could be the covert use of a “dummy terrorist” without any traceable connections to the actual terrorist organization responsible for the blasts, in which case public attacks against the “dummy terrorist” would only serve to conceal further the real culprit.

  130. el gordo permalink
    April 18, 2013 7:28 am

    ‘The population of Germany in 1933 was around 60 million. Almost all Germans were Christian, belonging either to the Roman Catholic (ca. 20 million members) or the Protestant (ca. 40 million members) churches. The Jewish community in Germany in 1933 was less than 1% of the total population of the country.’

    Christians responsible for mass murder, I rest my case.

  131. Ol' Sancty permalink
    April 18, 2013 7:34 am

    I said there was greater intolerance “among the atheists” not that atheists in general were less tolerant, although a case could be mounted for that. The stats bear this out.

  132. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 18, 2013 9:10 am

    “I agree with all of that, but I think it has zero to do with any biblical notion of sin, original or otherwise.”

    I know it could be phrased in secular terms, but it is a great conversation starter.

  133. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 18, 2013 9:13 am

    “Atheism denotes no belief in god.”

    Agnostics also have no belief in god. Atheists have no belief in god but also believe that that god does not exist. Agnosticism is more rational.

  134. April 18, 2013 10:17 am

    I said there was greater intolerance “among the atheists” not that atheists in general were less tolerant, although a case could be mounted for that. The stats bear this out.”

    What a load of bollocks.

    The talking snake advocates are the ones who tell everyone else that they’re all going to hell if they don’t believe in their dog.

    I’ve yet to hear an atheist declare that there’s some sort of punishment awaiting you if you disagree with them.

  135. TB Queensland permalink
    April 18, 2013 10:45 am

    As I suspected at the outset … I don’t see much point in discussing terrorist links with religion with any godbotherers … as proven here, over the last few days … a telling experiment methinks …

    The stats bear this out.”

    Like to see those stats too …

    But here’s some numbers to play with concerning wars and “state murders” … percentages are probably more realistic …

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll

    Coincidentally the book I’m reading at the moment Churchill’s War, Max Hastings … quotes numbers of deaths at Leningrad, one Russian city, alone as more than the total Allied deaths or Britain and the USA …

    Fancy competing to prove who killed more people in the world …

  136. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 18, 2013 10:49 am

    “I’ve yet to hear an atheist declare that there’s some sort of punishment awaiting you if you disagree with them.”

    Mostly true, particularly in the West. But give them some power …. – the atheist commos specifically murdered priests and religious folk for not getting with the Soviet atheist program. Marxism doesn’t work if there is a god thus many Marxist states shut down churches and punished believers. Others realised that as a practical matter they could not eliminate religion and tolerated it.

  137. Ol' Sancty permalink
    April 18, 2013 12:45 pm

    TB, you stated that the Vatican held the record. Why not just say you we’re wrong? And who are you referring to when you referred to “god bothered”?

  138. 2DT Shock Jock permalink
    April 18, 2013 12:49 pm

    “Coincidentally the book I’m reading at the moment Churchill’s War,……..”

    Hasting does write some good ones and the Eastern Front death tolls are also highlighted in this one……….

    As he points out its a pity the English actually lost WW2

    http://www.amazon.com/Armageddon-Germany-1944-1945-Max-Hastings/dp/0375714227

  139. April 18, 2013 1:58 pm

    Seems odd that, if it was Islamic extremists, they haven’t publicly taken responsibility yet.

    They are usually proud of such bloodletting inflicted upon the infidel…and not shy about advertising it.

  140. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 18, 2013 2:13 pm

    Could be Sudden Jihad Syndrome.

  141. TB Queensland permalink
    April 18, 2013 2:20 pm

    Thanks, Wally, don’t have Armageddon … I suspect Hastings might regurgitate similar material in his books (a dilemma if its history) … I’m reading, Inferno, in tandem with, C’s War … Inferno is based upon comments, letters, journal and diary entries of “ordinary” civilian and military personnel across all theatres and nationalities … ie in Churchill’s Op Barbarossa has just begun … so I switched to Inferno for the initial attacks (on three fronts) … I’ll switch back after the first major Wehrmacht push slowed …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Yes, Ser T, I’ve been saying the same thing here … looking more and more “home-grown”, methinks …

    Hope its not another JFK and they do get the bugger(s) tho’ …

  142. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 18, 2013 2:20 pm

    Most of us just want the bomber to be caught. However, some have a marked preference for who they would like the bomber to be.

  143. TB Queensland permalink
    April 18, 2013 2:22 pm

    Or any godbotherer …

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=godbotherer

  144. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 18, 2013 2:31 pm

    Some godbotherers, at the behest of their god, are more prone to this sort of thing than others.

  145. TB Queensland permalink
    April 18, 2013 2:32 pm

    Thanks for the link (marked preference), sb, some very strong home truths in the article … especially this …

    If that sounds hard to believe, just look at yesterday’s comments by right-wing radio host Laura Ingraham, whose talking points often become Republican Party doctrine. Though authorities haven’t even identified a suspect in the Boston attack, she (like other conservatives) seems to already assume the assailant is foreign, and is consequently citing the attack as rationale to slam the immigration reform bill.

    The same Laura Ingraham, of course, was one of the leading voices criticizing the Department of Homeland Security for daring to even report on right-wing domestic terrorism. In that sense, she perfectly embodies the double standard that, more than anything, will determine the long-term political impact of the Boston bombing.

    Seems, Alan Jones, has a female counterpart across the Pacific …

  146. IPA address permalink
    April 18, 2013 2:34 pm

    “However, some have a marked preference for who they would like the bomber to be.”

    It’s OK, the case has already been solved.

  147. April 18, 2013 2:34 pm

    “Agnostics also have no belief in god. Atheists have no belief in god but also believe that that god does not exist.”

    I think that’s splitting hairs.

    “Agnosticism is more rational.”

    I dispute that. I think agnosticism is just seen as more ‘polite’ by myth defenders (who are irritated by atheists’ more absolute stance in their faces…most of them aren’t used to being confronted with having the legitimacy of their worldview being picked apart).

    The faithful like to try & paint atheists as irrational as themselves. Unfortunately for them, they are the ones with the magical doctrines.

    I consider myself to be an atheist, of course, if I was confronted by actual divinity here in the real world (& not just a vibe or a feeling of divinity [which is what a lot of the religious cite as ‘proof’…*GUFFAW]) I’d concede that I was wrong.
    In my opinion, based upon experiences of life over decades, that possibility is so remote as to be negligible. I think most agnostics, the ones who bother to think about such things, probably share a very similar outlook; then there are those agnostics who don’t consider or give a toss about religion. It simply doesn’t influence their daily lives or thinking.

    As I’ve said many times, I can comprrehend why people make a case for a Creator. It seems logical to them to fill the gaps in knowledge of our origins with that. I disagree, but there is some logic in that line of thought. So, I suppose that is a mildly agnostic stance.
    However, the faithful go several steps further & invent reams of ritual & dogma to support their interpretation of what a creator/god is like. Every religion is different on the specifics, to the point of violence at times.
    Here I am, happy to state, without qualification, that they are all self serving & wrong. If there were a creator, who in the first instance cannot be adequately explained, how is it that these sundry differentiable myth clubs claim to know its mind? That is the greatest arrogance of all.

    Am I to believe that the christians here (& elsewhere) countenance for even a nanosecond that maybe Allah is right, or Vishnu, or Ra? Yet they are equally as convinced that their particular denomination represents the One True god.

    We are able to look back & perceive that Zeus & Odin were a load of horseshit. Any of you doubt that? outside of keeping some respect for the incorrect beliefs of the ancients.
    But get hung up & convinced of the legitimacy of certain flavours of christianity.

    I just take that certainty one step further & categorically state that You Are All Wrong.
    This is the most rational response of them all; if a little arrogant itself. It is honest and it is not self deceiving.

  148. April 18, 2013 2:35 pm

    “Some godbotherers, at the behest of their god, are more prone to this sort of thing than others.”

    Indeed.

  149. April 18, 2013 2:40 pm

    I seriously doubt that it was the NRA. They are dickheads, paranoid, frightened dickheads; but they’re not that stupid or determined to confect political mileage with the blood of innocent Americans.

  150. April 18, 2013 2:43 pm

    “at the behest of their god”

    Given that no god exists, it’s not at the behest of their god.

    It’s at the behest of the humans who penned their manuscripts centuries ago…& those whom they choose to listen to today who make literal interpretations of those manuscripts.

  151. IPA address permalink
    April 18, 2013 2:47 pm

    “They are dickheads, paranoid, frightened dickheads”

    Really? I’d be a gun owner (and possibly an NRA member) if I lived in the US.I’d be a gun owner here too if Howard hadn’t reacted as he did after Port Arthur.

  152. April 18, 2013 2:50 pm

    I know that.

    Why?

  153. April 18, 2013 2:52 pm

    I see absolutely no need for the population to be armed.

    Most of the arguments for are simply pantswetting, imo.

    Proponents seem to think that criminals, maniacs & invaders are going to intrude into their house .

  154. IPA address permalink
    April 18, 2013 2:56 pm

    Opponents seem to think that arming the population would make everyone a potential killer. Another kind of pantswetting.

  155. April 18, 2013 3:08 pm

    I don’t think so.

    It would, however, enable the potential killers. Not to mention, increase potential accidents related to mishandling of firearms by the untrained.

    So, why do you desire to be armed? Is it out of what you perceive to be a desperate need for self defence? (serious question, not pisstaking)

    For the record, I’m in the throes of teaching my daughter how to safely handle firearms. Beginning with the 4.10 (snake gun) & air rifle, on cans & bottles at minimal range. Then proceeding to a lever action .22 with iron sights & finally high powered scoped rifles (.222 & .30-06).
    I suppose we are lucky that we have ready access & a farm to use them on.

    People toting firearms in the city is fraught.

  156. el gordo permalink
    April 18, 2013 3:13 pm

    A deity is ‘a being with powers greater than those of ordinary humans, but who interacts with humans, positively or negatively, in ways that carry humans to new levels of consciousness beyond the grounded preoccupations of ordinary life.’

    There is an outside chance that our garden of eden had visitors who did some genetic tinkering on apes. The prototypes (around half a dozen) were mildly successful, with homo sapiens amazingly successful.

    Just sayin’

  157. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 18, 2013 3:14 pm

    “This is the most rational response of them all; if a little arrogant itself. It is honest and it is not self deceiving.”

    I respect that approach. Each person should determine their own approach and the basis on which they live their lives. I have made my decision and I’m happy with the outcome. I would much rather that other people live by their own considered understanding of the world than conform unthinkingly to mine.

  158. IPA address permalink
    April 18, 2013 3:15 pm

    “So, why do you desire to be armed? Is it out of what you perceive to be a desperate need for self defence? (serious question, not pisstaking)”

    If it’s a serious question why use the term “desperate”? It’s also hilarious how you think only farmers can be trusted with guns and not those crazy city folk.

  159. IPA address permalink
    April 18, 2013 3:18 pm

    Also, I don’t “desire to be armed”. I would like to own a gun or guns (again).

  160. April 18, 2013 3:23 pm

    “Each person should determine their own approach and the basis on which they live their lives. I have made my decision and I’m happy with the outcome. I would much rather that other people live by their own considered understanding of the world than conform unthinkingly to mine.”

    And I respect that approach.

  161. April 18, 2013 3:28 pm

    Farmers don’t own firearms for self defense, so the mindset is completely different, to begin with.

    If you’ve ever had to eradicate vermin, put down an animal with a blunt object or cut a throat with a knife you’ll understand what I mean by that.

    The term ‘deperate’ suited my hyperbolic intentions, but it was a serious question.

    “I would like to own a gun or guns (again).”

    To what purpose? I don’t see ‘just because’ as being reason enough to wield lethal force. What type of firearm? Pistols, presumably?
    Just curious. Not really my business, but seeing as how we’re off topic & on the subject. 😉

  162. April 18, 2013 3:31 pm

    Nothing wrong with being trained to handle firearms safely, btw.

    That’s different to coveting ownership. (did you like that? 🙂 …coveting…see what I did there)

  163. IPA address permalink
    April 18, 2013 3:39 pm

    “To what purpose? I don’t see ‘just because’ as being reason enough to wield lethal force. What type of firearm? Pistols, presumably?
    Just curious.”

    Maybe I want to teach my offspring responsible gun handling.

    I’d like to be free to own all kinds of guns, but as our laws stand that doesn’t leave a lot of choice. To me it’s as much a freedom issue as anything else. Therefore “just because” is a good enough reason.

  164. IPA address permalink
    April 18, 2013 3:47 pm

    BTW, I learnt to use guns on the farm where my mother grew up, and yes I’ve either seen or done the things you describe. But I don’t see any difference between that and learning to use firearms at a gun club or firing range in the CBD. You seem to think self-defence is the only reason an city dweller would want to own a gun.

  165. IPA address permalink
    April 18, 2013 4:11 pm

    Back to the NRA. That organisation represent the broad spectrum of gun owners from the farmer you describe above, to the sporting shooter, to the hunter, to the urban rifle-range user, to the city dwelling self-defender, to the single-issue second amendment advocate. All “dickheads, paranoid, frightened dickheads” according to you.

  166. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 18, 2013 4:21 pm

    Don’t be silly IPA, no reasonable people would want to own a gun. As Obama told his sophisticated San Francisco pals:

    “You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest… it’s not surprising they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”

  167. April 18, 2013 4:32 pm

    The NRA is a conservative political masthead, and the gun ‘mentality’ in the US is a little more irrational & rabid than here.

    As for the difference between firearms in the city & rural areas, that you claim not to see.
    Well, how about population density & proximity? Discharging firearms in a built up area is self evidently stupid.

    I have no issue, as I said, with training people to safely use firearms; in fact, it is a good idea.
    Neither do I object to gun clubs or pistol/rifle ranges. But I am dubious that the majority of those in metropolitan areas who covet, lust for & desire procurement of firearms want them solely for use in such controlled environments (btw, Chris Kyle was recently shot at a gun club in the loony US). I think they (not you) really want a firearm(s) in their homes, for wetting reasons, if they are honest; or because ‘packing heat’ is seen by them to be ‘tough’ [it’s the opposite].

    “To me it’s as much a freedom issue as anything else. Therefore “just because” is a good enough reason.”

    Yes, we should be able to own hand grenades, landmines & shoulder launched anti-aircraft missiles too! 😯 …just because.

  168. IPA address permalink
    April 18, 2013 4:34 pm

    “Yes, we should be able to own hand grenades, landmines & shoulder launched anti-aircraft missiles too! …just because.”

    And nukes. 🙄

  169. April 18, 2013 4:37 pm

    I don’t believe you’ve made a good case for arming the population.

    And, we aren’t living in the US, thank fuck. The horse has well & truly bolted there; the situation is far beyond reasonable control.
    So I’m not sure that quoting Obama has much relevance to what’s going on here…although I concede that a disparaging remark I made about uberparanoia amongst the NRA-wetters was what got us to this point in discussion.
    Notice that I was actually praising the NRA faintly with my remark. They are not so fucked up as to have orchestrated the Boston bombing.

  170. April 18, 2013 4:39 pm

    “And nukes.”

    I thought about adding that. It would be a progression of your reasoning. Although I was being a little obtuse, I’m sure you understand what I mean (even if you disagree).

  171. IPA address permalink
    April 18, 2013 4:41 pm

    “But I am dubious that the majority of those in metropolitan areas who covet, lust for & desire procurement of firearms want them solely for use in such controlled environments (btw, Chris Kyle was recently shot at a gun club in the loony US). I think they (not you) really want a firearm(s) in their homes, for wetting reasons, if they are honest; or because ‘packing heat’ is seen by them to be ‘tough’ [it’s the opposite].”

    Yes there would be a variety of reasons. But you either allow people to own a gun for whatever reason they wish, like the USA, or you don’t, like here. Like I said, if I lived in the USA I’d be a gun owner, and because of the second amendment wouldn’t need a reason other than “just because”.

  172. IPA address permalink
    April 18, 2013 4:47 pm

    “It would be a progression of your reasoning.”

    No, it would not. I was expressing my preference for laws which would allow gun ownership, not any-absurd-weapon-you-can-think-of ownership.

  173. April 18, 2013 4:50 pm

    Which is why I think ‘just because’ isn’t good enough.

    I know that there are sane, balanced & reasonable individuals like you. You can’t tell that just by looking at people though.
    Even measured people are prone to emotion & anger & fear & loss of self control…& it’s at those times that there shouldn’t be ready access, in the home, or a holster on the hip, to firearms.
    It’s unnecessary…&, in my view, the cons outweigh the pros.

    Anyway, now I’ll come down from my Ivory Tower & head out the farm & shoot holes through anything I like…& there’s nothing the metroscum can do about it! mwahahahahaha…

  174. April 18, 2013 4:52 pm

    So the whole ‘it’s a freedom issue’ doesn’t work that well, does it. 😉

  175. April 18, 2013 4:53 pm

    Not with ‘just because’, leastways.

  176. IPA address permalink
    April 18, 2013 4:59 pm

    “Anyway, now I’ll come down from my Ivory Tower & head out the farm & shoot holes through anything I like…& there’s nothing the metroscum can do about it! mwahahahahaha…”

    😯 😉

  177. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 18, 2013 5:07 pm

    “Yes, we should be able to own hand grenades, landmines & shoulder launched anti-aircraft missiles too! …just because.”

    The theory is that the populace should have the right to bear arms, including the ones you mentioned. It was precisely because US citizens had access to canon and warships that they were able to defeat the British.

    The question is whether the right to bear arms is still necessary to protect hard-won freedoms. Probably not. Given the modern trend for citizens to become mendicants of the state rather than being responsible for their own lives, it is unlikely that they will miss their freedoms as they ebb away. Rome declined as the era of the self-sufficient citizen soldier gave way to that of state-funded bread and circuses supported by foreign mercenaries.

  178. IPA address permalink
    April 18, 2013 5:21 pm

    Obama’s latest gun control measures didn’t pass the senate …

    ‘Of course they have a right to speak their minds. But no, their emotions are not relevant when it comes to empirical questions such as the impact of background checks, “assault weapon” bans, and limits on magazines. Their pain tells us nothing about the effectiveness or constitutionality of such measures. To the contrary, it obscures those issues with an impenetrable emotional fog.

    ‘Obama does a fine job of empathizing with the parents of Adam Lanza’s victims. But that is something any decent human being should be able to manage. Where he has trouble, despite his lip service to the idea of putting himself in the other guy’s shoes, is in empathizing with his opponents. He not only says they are wrong, which is to be expected. He refuses to concede that people who disagree with him about gun control are acting in good faith, based on what they believe to be sound reasons—that they, like him, are doing what they think is right. His self-righteous solipsism is striking even for a politician.’

  179. April 18, 2013 5:38 pm

    lt seems to me the quantity of `gun-play` has been rising in sydney and melbourne over the years, along with road-rage. There seems to me that letting many of these city-fools have fire-arms just because they want them would be folly. There really isn`t a use for guns in the city, outside law-enforcement.

  180. TB Queensland permalink
    April 18, 2013 6:04 pm

    WAS THIS JUST A “ACCIDENT”???

    http://www.news.com.au/world-news/explosion-at-fertiliser-plant-near-waco-texas/story-fndir2ev-1226623333230

    All it needed was a bit of diesoline added to the fertilizer …

    Just sayin’ …

  181. TB Queensland permalink
    April 18, 2013 6:09 pm

    `gun-play` has been rising in sydney and melbourne over the years, along with road-rage … and Brisbane and the Gold Coast … 730

    However … There really isn`t a use for guns in the city, outside law-enforcement.

    I enjoy an afternoon at the range … no guns in my home but … (bearing in mind we are all ADF weapons trained …)

    The real problem is/has been unregistered firearms … and the bikies and gangs seem to have unlimited access!

  182. April 18, 2013 6:33 pm

    ” I enjoy an afternoon at the range”
    l probably should have said `need` instead of `use`, as what you`re doing would be `entertainment` or amusement, unlike cops, prison-guards and armed-bank-guards
    ************************************************************************
    yeah l thought gold-coast was getting a bit gun-happy too, didn`t realize brisbane was tho
    *************************************************************************
    WACO, l would just put it down to yank incompetence, TB, of course they store fuel in there, and seem to have it located `within` town near nursing-home

  183. TB Queensland permalink
    April 18, 2013 6:34 pm

    Proponents seem to think that criminals, maniacs & invaders are going to intrude into their house .

    But they do, Ser T …

    People toting firearms in the city is fraught.

    But you don’t live in the city, Ser T …

    Also, I don’t “desire to be armed”. I would like to own a gun or guns (again).

    But you can – unless you have a criminal record or can’t satisfy the security checks …

    If you’ve ever had to eradicate vermin,

    But my son put down a rat – in his lounge – with a .222 air rifle … he lives in the city …

    Nothing wrong with being trained to handle firearms safely, btw.</i.

    But who trained the trainer?

    As Obama told his sophisticated San Francisco pals:

    But we have towns out west too … similar outlooks …

    Well, how about population density & proximity? Discharging firearms in a built up area is self evidently stupid.

    But, mate, just ’cause we live in the city doesn’t make everyone stupid … I agree that the stupid country folk that discharge a weapon have less chance of hitting someone or something important … but blanket laws are —- blanket laws …

    Yes, we should be able to own hand grenades, landmines & shoulder launched anti-aircraft missiles too! 😯 …just because.

    But that’s being silly … and so was … It would be a progression of your reasoning. It was actually YOUR reasoning …

    Even measured people are prone to emotion & anger & fear & loss of self control…& it’s at those times that there shouldn’t be ready access, in the home, or a holster on the hip, to firearms.
    It’s unnecessary…&, in my view, the cons outweigh the pros.

    That applies equally to the bush as the city and has been demonstrated quite recently … in Tassie

  184. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 18, 2013 6:42 pm

    “But we have towns out west too … similar outlooks …”

    Obama was being a condescending tool. The only way he could understand people with a different point of view was to demean them.

  185. TB Queensland permalink
    April 18, 2013 6:47 pm

    sb, I get that … the problem with this site at the moment is that everyone is so gung-ho and fkn serious …and desperate to make a fkn mark!

    What happened to the humour, satirie and sarc?

    Jesus F Christ loosen up!

    It really has become a bore …

  186. April 18, 2013 6:59 pm

    l have no problem with the yanks shooting each other. lnstead of shooting up the rest of the world. IN DOG WE TRUST

  187. April 18, 2013 7:31 pm

    abc1 news, WACO, 4-5 residential blocks leveled, that`s 50-75 houses flattened, yep, incompetence, storing explosive material always is

  188. April 18, 2013 7:37 pm

    incompetence, storing explosive material in residential areas TEXAS

  189. el gordo permalink
    April 18, 2013 7:39 pm

    Barry O’Farrell wants to allow controlled culling in national parks, getting rid of imported vermin, but there is a backlash against shooters in the parks.

    My view is that they should be permitted … if properly organised and away from bushwalkers.

  190. April 18, 2013 7:59 pm

    “But they do, Ser T … ”

    Odds are too slim to warrant arms proliferation, imo, TB.

    “But you don’t live in the city, Ser T …”

    But I have lived in the city for a decade plus, TB. Having said that, the gun crime in Adelaide (generally bikie related) has flourished since I moved back where I belong, to the country, nearly a decade ago.
    I do understand the issue. In fact, I am personally acquainted with the odd individual who may have illegally carried pistols. Scary.

    “But my son put down a rat – in his lounge – with a .222 air rifle … he lives in the city …”

    Not quite the vermin I meant, TB. The kind I’m referring to need bigger stopping power than that…& multiply into hordes.
    If I had a rat in my lounge I’d get one of the swords off the wall. 🙂
    Would have liked to have seen your son’s shot though.

    “It was actually YOUR reasoning ”

    It wasn’t, TB. I was extrapolating IPA’s ‘freedom’ angle. As if I think anyone should have access to such things!

    “That applies equally to the bush as the city ”

    I beg to differ, for the reasons I’ve already mentioned above. There are legitimate reasons for rural landholders to stockpile an arsenal have firearms. They are required ‘tools’.
    Outside of gunclubs & a disproportionate fear of home invasion, there is no good honest reason for civilians in the city to be armed.

    You are probably already aware, but on the farm the guns are locked in a secure strongbox/cabinet, away from similarly secured ammunition in a separate location, unless they are in use. They aren’t just sitting up on the wall on the gun rack like they used to be, waiting for some dumb city filth to come down the driveway & try & steal fuel.

  191. April 18, 2013 8:04 pm

    ” , getting rid of imported vermin,”
    I`ll miss you gordo. 🙂
    *******************************************************
    l think the problem is barry wants to let hobby shooters do it, which will end in a shit-load of wild-life getting blasted and wounded critters getting away (always_does)

  192. el gordo permalink
    April 18, 2013 8:25 pm

    It does appear that Barry has gone off half-cocked, allowing amateur shooters into parks, its also politically unwise as a majority of SMH readers are against it

    They could allow professional shooters, but the campaign against the whole idea is too strong and he would be wise to drop it.

  193. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 18, 2013 9:15 pm

    “What happened to the humour, satirie and sarc?”

    So you didn’t like the Jesus Loves You pic I linked for you above? I have never been good a the droll comments that I see around here from time to time. But I’ll work on it.

  194. April 18, 2013 10:48 pm

    no matter what political delusion or religious delusion you have, the embedded media remain crap when they don`t tell us about this stuff
    ***
    new strain of bird flu in China have had no history of contact with poultry, adding to the mystery about the virus that has killed 16 people to date. Chinese authorities have slaughtered thousands of birds and closed some live poultry markets to try and stem the rate of human infection, but many questions remain unsolved including whether the H7N9 strain is being transmitted between people.
    http://theextinctionprotocol.wordpress.com/2013/04/17/human-to-human-mystery-intensifies-on-how-h7n9-is-spreading-most-had-no-contact-with-poultry/
    ***
    the embedded media spend way too much time repeating hysteria and americana instead of reporting important news

  195. Evil Walrus of Palm Beach permalink
    April 18, 2013 11:01 pm

    I very much doubt that the USA founding fathers who travelled to meet by horse put together their constitution by candlelight had any idea that allowingg a muzzle loaded musket would be so controversial.

  196. Evil Walrus of Palm Beach permalink
    April 18, 2013 11:07 pm

    Sorry IPA

    City people do not have a right to a gun

    I don’t see any wild pigs inPalm Beach (within the Oxford dictionary definition at least) an d no roos or rabbits or foxes

    What’s left…………..?

    Mmnnmnnnmm

    A bi t bored…….. Tell Me Why

    “I Don’t Like Mondays “

  197. Evil Walrus of Palm Beach permalink
    April 18, 2013 11:19 pm

    Something amusing just happened.
    We have 3 cats. I’m elevated on the 3rd storey at the moment and
    one of our cats just scratched on the screen door to get in from A
    balcony.

    I opened it and the cat suddenly disappeared.

    I didn’t realise that as I opened the door he had his claws stuck and went with the door thro a void and ended up in a situation whee he was attached to a screen door 3 storeys up.

    Anyway he survived

  198. TB Queensland permalink
    April 19, 2013 9:32 am

    City people do not have a right to a gun

    Yes they do …

    I wouldn’t mind betting (James can do the research – he’s rather picky about stats) but I’ll bet there are proportionately more people killed by cars than guns … get rid of cars in the city and no more car deaths/accidents …

    We have 3 cats. Why am I not surprised … 😆

    Not a cat lover … so in the interests of decency … I’ve deleted all the comments I was going to make … 🙂

    However, quite a few years ago I remember watching a TV doco on feral cats … one of the comments was that there are 10 million domestic cats (from which feral cats derive) who kill on average three native fauna each per year … that’s 30 million native animals … but there are no controls on cats … just dogs …

    Why is that?

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I see Greg Hunt … was really hunting around for words on Lateline … really scored for the Party last night … the Labor party … what an awful and ill informed performance … from a wannabe minister … I loved the bit about Tony Abbott bringing together the USA, China, EU and India to create a G4 for climate change … almost worth voting for the Libs for a good guffaw …

    Faeryland …

  199. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 19, 2013 10:35 am

    “I very much doubt that the USA founding fathers who travelled to meet by horse put together their constitution by candlelight had any idea that allowing a muzzle loaded musket would be so controversial.”

    It wasn’t controversial at all. The issue was widely discussed and supported by philosophers such as Locke and by the English Whigs. It was seen as central to maintianing freedom from overbearing rulers.

    The idea of the right to bear arms wasn’t something new at the time of the drafting of the US constitution. It goes back at least to Aristotle. Plato favoured rule by a philosopher-king. The philosopher-king would enforce his laws through military Guardians who would have a monopoly of arms. (It is no surprise that Clive Hamilton proudly refers to the Greens as “the party of Plato”. They are inherently anti-democratic.)

    Aristotle argued for a constitutional government where the citizens administer the state and should bear arms.

    In the middle ages there was not only a right but a duty to bear arms. This was necessary as duties were owed to the superior in the feudal chain to fight for him and this was an era of ‘bring your own sword’. After the middle ages British kings began to infringe on this right. Charles the First sought greater control over civilian militias and established a standing army. The reaction to this in English Bill of Rights was to affirm the rights of Protestant subjects to bear arms.

    Even today Swiss males of military age are required to keep military rifles and pistols in their homes.

  200. TB Queensland permalink
    April 19, 2013 10:48 am

    sb, you missed the point, I think, Wally, was just pointing out that the Founding Fathers didn’t foresee what could happen to weapons and ammunition in the 21st Century …

    … and he rarely reads past the first paragraph of any posts … I can assure you history lessons are wasted on him and many others here … 😆

    BTW I’ve carried a Swiss Army knife on my travels around the world for almost thirty years … wonderful invention … especially the toothpick and tweezers and the little magnifying glass for lighting fires … 🙂

  201. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 19, 2013 10:55 am

    “I’ve carried a Swiss Army knife on my travels around the world for almost thirty years … “

    I’ve seen one now that comes with a USB drive which looked pretty cool.

    The bastards confiscate that kind of thing these days. I had a good corkscrew impounded at Sydney airport recently. They treated me like a terrorist when I don’t look like one at all. 😮

  202. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    April 19, 2013 11:02 am

    “BTW I’ve carried a Swiss Army knife on my travels around the world for almost thirty years …

    I routinely carried one too, that I got about 25 years ago. It was confiscated at airport security a few years ago. I forgot to take it out of my carryon bag, though it had passed through the metal detector a dozen times previously.

  203. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 19, 2013 11:17 am

    “it had passed through the metal detector a dozen times previously.”

    These days they adjust the sensitivity when suspicious types come through!

  204. TB Queensland permalink
    April 19, 2013 11:41 am

    These days they adjust the sensitivity when suspicious types come through!

    LOL! Yep, especially when they carry hollow surfboards … 🙂

    I lost my first one at, Schiphol Airport, The Minister, accidently packed it in my carry on bag … we actually got through the first security and were stopped at the second … silver lining tho’ … gave me leverage with, The Minister, to buy an even better one when we got to Samos Is …

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    A message to, James, serious … I’m taking on APIA and Phenix Jewellery over failed jewellery supplied after our burglary … my “deadline” to them expires today (been going since mid February …

    … do you reckon I lodge a dispute with the Financial Ombudsman Service or the Office of Fair Trading (who now administer the new nation Consumer laws) or both?

  205. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    April 19, 2013 12:59 pm

    That’s it! It also probably explains why I get the dust examination every time I go through security.

  206. April 19, 2013 1:20 pm

    Have you noticed that there’s some flamboyant queen with a microphone telling everyone how to fill out the departure cards when you go through the gates at Sydney airport…?

  207. TB Queensland permalink
    April 19, 2013 1:28 pm

    Do we know him? 😯

  208. April 19, 2013 5:45 pm

    Maybe, get rid of houses, then there’ll be no home invasions & consequently no need for the disproportionately paranoid to think they need lethal force for home defence in metropolitan areas. 🙄

    “City people do not have a right to a gun

    Yes they do …”

    No they don’t. Where does this ‘right’ spring from? apart from a sense of self entitlement (generally) borne by insecurity.

    Thankfully, in this country, they’re not allowed to have one anyway.

    Just because some city people think they need a gun doesn’t mean they have a right to one.

    The whole ‘cars kill more people’ thing is spurious.

    * respectfully, of course 🙂

  209. April 19, 2013 5:48 pm

    I favour cats over most of the humans I know. I have one on my lap getting in the way as I type, right now.

    Actually, come to think of it, I favour most animals over a great proportion of humanity. They know not malice, machination or manipulation.

  210. April 19, 2013 5:51 pm

    Having seen a bit more of the alleged perps of the Boston bombings, anyone care to speculate on cause or motive?

    The pair seem even more likely now to be acting in isolation. Still, who knows.

  211. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 19, 2013 6:02 pm

    Watch here.

    Updates here.

  212. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 19, 2013 6:05 pm

    Missing Brown U student Sunil Tripathi arrested.

  213. TB Queensland permalink
    April 19, 2013 6:08 pm

    * respectfully, of course 🙂 LOL!

  214. April 19, 2013 6:11 pm

    I know we’re likely to be at loggerheads when gun control comes up, TB.

    😉 🙂

  215. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 19, 2013 6:12 pm

    Muslim guy posts this as his reaction to hearing the names of the suspects.

  216. TB Queensland permalink
    April 19, 2013 6:39 pm

    I’m not sure that both “events” are related yet … initially I made that assumption (hits forehead – very, very hard!) based on the reports … but they could be quite seperate incidents …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    sb, ’tis funny … his films make me want to curl up … but I keep watching …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    I know we’re likely to be at loggerheads when gun control comes up, TB.

    Me too. mate … but I think the problem I have is that it is “blanket” control … I can quite easily access weapons, so I don’t need to apply for a licence … as I posted earlier – no weapons in my home (biggest weapon I’ve got is my monster Maglite!) … but after our burglary I was up and checking every couple of hours … not now because I’ve beefed up our security …

    … and those weapons I access are correctly stored, cared for and the person who owns them has had the best training in the world … quite frankly, I hadn’t fired a rifle for 40 years and was a little nervous … after learning the range rules (and I give a big thumbs up too!) and a couple of shots the training just took over … even to picking up the spent cartridges!

    And my grouping was … excellent … kept the first target … really surprised myself … considering that I was using someone else’s ranged weapen …

    Is suspect while we differ our differences are based upon the same thing – untrained wankers who really don’t get the power of a weapon in their hands …

    .. I remember walking back from the targets after, we’d just “blanked” the hits and looking at all these rifles facing me … I said, ” that really gives me the shivers walking towards those weapons (no-one behind them BTW) … my companion said, “That shows how good your training was” … and he was right …

  217. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 19, 2013 6:46 pm

    “I’m not sure that both “events” are related yet … initially I made that assumption (hits forehead – very, very hard!) based on the reports … but they could be quite separate incidents …”

    Update thread continues here.

    The TV link I posted above just claimed police confirmation that the two suspects were also wanted re the marathon bombing.

  218. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 19, 2013 6:52 pm

    The interesting thing is that Reddit and Twitter have outperformed the traditional media in reporting this event.

  219. TB Queensland permalink
    April 19, 2013 6:57 pm

    Thanks, sb … as some of us speculated, had this been a Muslim raid then they would have been all over the internet by now …

    The motivation for this will be “interesting” …

  220. TB Queensland permalink
    April 19, 2013 6:58 pm

    The interesting thing is that Reddit and Twitter have outperformed the traditional media in reporting this event.

    … and just as many red-herrings and speculation as the regular “meeja” … in fact TDT has been uncommonly restrained …

  221. April 20, 2013 1:09 am

    media. that h7n9 (sars) link l dropped here earlier, l have been following story a couple of weeks now, finally sbs1 has put it on the news.
    ****************************************************************
    boston. suspects had a shoot-out with the cops, one cop dead, one suspect dead, one suspect escaped, and one `random` citizen was stripped naked by the cops in the street
    ******************************************************************
    texas. firemen were killed fighting the initial fire pre-blast, others have also died, and the fire/blast-site is emitting some type of `poisonous` gas/fumes and the locals are told to stay indoors

  222. May 10, 2013 5:22 am

    Articolo interessante e colgo l’occasione per complimentarmi per questo sito! veramente ben fatto e con tanti articoli utili!

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