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Abbott Govt Left Asylum Seekers to Drown

September 30, 2013

392545-boats

The incoming Abbott Government has been accused of leaving asylum seekers to drown after it failed to respond to desperate pleas from the sinking vessel.

Survivors from the the vessel that sank off Indonesia claim their desperate pleas to Australian authorities for help were ignored as their vessel foundered in heavy seas.

The death toll from the tragedy was on Saturday expected to surpass 50, with 30 or so people still missing.

Indonesian authorities say that at least 21 people, including seven children, drowned when the boat, which was believed to be carrying about 80 passengers, sank on Friday off the coast of Java.

Only 28 of the boat’s 81 passengers have been found alive, leaving more than 50 dead or missing. Indonesian authorities say they have little hope of finding more.

One survivor, Abdullah, from Jordan, said: ”I called the Australian embassy. For 24 hours we were calling them. They told us just send us the position on GPS, where are you. We did, and they told us: ‘OK, we know … where you are.’ And they said: ‘We’ll come for you in two hours.’

“We waited 24 hours, and we kept calling them – ‘We don’t have food, we don’t have water for three days, we have children, just rescue us.’ And nobody come.”

As the bodies were washing ashore in Indonesia, Prime Minister Tony Abbott refused to be drawn into the unfolding tragedy, ignoring questions from the media on Saturday afternoon, instead preferring to congratulate the Hawks for winning the AFL grand final.

However, as the extent of the tragedy became clear, thanks to reports from the Indonesian authorities and leaks from within the ranks of the Coalition government itself, Minister for Immigration Scott Morrison was forced to break his own media blackout to defend the government’s role in the debacle.

“Suggestions Australian authorities did not respond to this incident appropriately are absolutely and totally wrong,” the minister’s statement said.

However he acknowledged that Australian authorities did receive a phone call about the vessel on Friday morning.

It appears that no action by the Australian government was taken at that time.

Morrison is due to issue a statement today.

He has previously refused to disclose the tactical operations of the military in dealing with asylum seekers at sea.

 

 

 

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294 Comments leave one →
  1. egg permalink
    September 30, 2013 10:10 am

    The Indonesian solders took them down to the boat and sent them off, so far so good. Outside territorial waters they call for help, but nobody comes so they head back to shore.

    Why didn’t the Indonesian water police come to offer assistance?

  2. September 30, 2013 10:15 am

    What are you saying they didn’t stop the boats? I thought it was all the lefts fault? Surely Not, they promised? Fucking Gigantic, humongous chickens roosting….

    Anyway its Monday, Abbott and Morrison spent yesterday on their knees absolving themselves of all their 6 days of sin and immoral acts. Back to another week of being immoral hypocrites… 30 dead children, think about that for a second…. 30 drowned kids.

    Frame your bullshit rhetorical lies around that reality….Tony looks a little Blank..

  3. egg permalink
    September 30, 2013 10:32 am

    ‘What are you saying they didn’t stop the boats?’

    Nobody stopped the boat, it sank in Indonesian territorial waters.

  4. September 30, 2013 10:39 am

    So they navy received the distress call on Friday, they responded to the distress call, telling the crew that they knew where the boat was, and that they were on there way…

    And then nothing happened.

    It’s irrelevant as to whether the boat was in Indonesian territorial waters, International waters, or Australian territorial waters, when an able-bodied vessel receives a distress signal (and I’d suggest that the Australian navy is able-bodied) it has a duty and an obligation to respond and rescue the passengers.

    But somewhere along the chain of command since Friday morning, it appears that the Australian navy didn’t respond as the should have.

    An investigation is indeed warranted.

  5. September 30, 2013 10:46 am

    ‘Operational reasons’, the greatest fucking cop-out ever .

  6. September 30, 2013 10:48 am

    Stop the Navy boats when convenient or the press? Is it the Navy boats they were talking about…? I’m confused is that when you are subverting sovereignty, bribing locals or buying boats? ….. Can I just apply the Morrison factor as a mirror back at the fibs? 30 drowned babies…Gigantic hippopotamic chickens 🙄

  7. September 30, 2013 10:49 am

    Expect to see it used as a ‘talk-to-the-hand’ with alarming regularity under the new regime. It’s like the cynical bastards think it’s perfectly legitimate to pretend to hide behind a fog of war…when there’s no fucking war.

  8. September 30, 2013 10:51 am

    You’d better hold up the mirror, coz the lickspittles sure aren’t going to do it. They’re all predictably silently complicit.

  9. September 30, 2013 10:53 am

    Jesus loves me yes I know…blah blah blah blah..left left commo commo..fuck what do we do now we won?

  10. September 30, 2013 10:59 am

    “They’re all predictably silently complicit.”

    Yes. Funny that isn’t it. 😯

  11. September 30, 2013 11:04 am

    “fuck what do we do now we won?”

    Inconvenient problems we claimed we’d STOP go straight down the memory hole, that’s what.

    Stop the boats! Stop the boats!

    …what boats? what boats?

    …tumbleweeds…

  12. September 30, 2013 11:06 am

    What would jesus do?

    He’d wash his hands of the matter, like Pilate, because it was in Indonesian waters, apparently.

    It’s a reimagining of jesus for the old book of fables testament.

  13. IPA permalink
    September 30, 2013 11:11 am

    “You’d better hold up the mirror, coz the lickspittles sure aren’t going to do it. They’re all predictably silently complicit.”

    You can’t be referring to anyone here because, as you told Neil yesterday, if you were you’d name them.

  14. September 30, 2013 11:15 am

    Hmmmmm…

    I told Neil I’d name him if I meant him.

  15. September 30, 2013 11:18 am

    Should I call out individuals?

    I can’t be arsed trawling back through past comments threads to juxtapose pre-Abbott commentary about asylum seekers with the absolute dearth to be found currently. If I could be arsed, I’m confident that the evidence is there.

  16. September 30, 2013 11:20 am

    Fact is, Abbott & his ideological acolytes have made a fearsome rod for their own backs with all of their histrionic carry on about asylum seekers prior to seizing government.

  17. egg permalink
    September 30, 2013 11:22 am

    ‘He’d wash his hands of the matter, like Pilate, because it was in Indonesian waters, apparently.’

    Having missed the pick up point and a little red faced the Australian navy should have chased after the fishing boat into Indonesian waters and created a diplomatic incident. It would have set a nasty precedent.

    On reaching shore the boat broke up and those who could swim survived. Indonesian solders then took happy snaps of each other next to the splintered wood.

  18. September 30, 2013 11:25 am

    ” It would have set a nasty precedent. ”

    I’d suggest that a nasty precedent has in fact been set.

  19. September 30, 2013 11:26 am

    From Large Booming Decibels to small silent walls and to think we can’t do anything about these invaders because we’re broke and our budget is in emergency…. So Toney is taking over 19 “leading” business men and a woman…wow thats one for each dead baby…
    Prediction…lots of silence when Phoney Tony returns from Indo…

  20. September 30, 2013 11:29 am

    I love the contortions & evasive rationalisations to try & make the things, which the previous government would have been howled down for (had the situation befallen them), seem reasonable.

    It reminds me of the reaction from predictable quarters when Israeli Special Forces killed a heap of people when they boarded that ship at sea. Playing games with territorial waters to absolve their dirty deeds.

  21. September 30, 2013 11:33 am

    Yeah, the ‘dignitaries’ (read, business heavyweights) he’s taking with him to Indo make me suspect that crass bribery will be attempted behind the scenes to coerce the Indonesians into projecting the appearance that a workable solution has been reached between our two countries.

    It will be interesting to witness post meeting heraldry from both governments.

    As you say, if a shiny agreement isn’t reached, or Abbott gets rebuked by Indo, we probably won’t be hearing too much about it all.

  22. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 30, 2013 11:35 am

    The real blame for this tragedy is clearly with Rudd and the cheering mob that celebrated his ditching of the Pacific Solution. Without that these people would not have attempted the trip.

    While most rational people are waiting to understand the details, those who bear most of the blame for the drownings that inevitably followed the abolition of a policy that had already succeeded are the ones screeching the loudest now although they have precious little evidence about what actually happened.

    So far we have heard that these migrants left Lebanon for economic reasons, that the Indonesian Army escorted them on to the boat, that a distress message was sent, that the Australian authorities sent a spotter plane and alerted shipping in the area but neither a merchant vessel that went to search nor the Australian aircraft was able to locate the vessel which sank 50 metres from the Indonesian case. And it is all Abbott’s fault apparently!

  23. September 30, 2013 11:39 am

    I think that, given the megaphoning of every conceivable detail of a boat at sea by Abbott previous to holding government, it’s entirely reasonable to draw a stark comparison to what’s going on now.

    It’s the nature of how he made it into a partisan pissing contest as one of his major planks for election.

  24. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 30, 2013 11:49 am

    You mean as soon as there is a tragedy and well before the facts are in the shrieking must begin?

  25. September 30, 2013 12:02 pm

    Abbott & his ideological acolytes have made a fearsome rod for their own backs with all of their histrionic carry on about asylum seekers prior to seizing government. “

    EXACTLY!!

    What was a NATIONAL EMERGENCY for the last three years is now apparently just “a passing irritant”….

    🙄

  26. egg permalink
    September 30, 2013 12:08 pm

    If they can stop the rogue elements in the Indonesian army, it should bring the matter to a close.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-29/indonesia-military-implicated-in-deaths-of-asylum-seekers/4987772

  27. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 30, 2013 12:12 pm

    I love the contortions & evasive rationalisations to try & make the things, which the previous government would have been howled down for (had the situation befallen them), seem reasonable.

    Exactly. All rushing to defend the indefensible, blame the victims, the previous government and anyone else they can think of EXCEPT who gave the orders to do nothing, to stand by while people drown. They were all blubbering that we had to stop the boats cos they cared so much for lives lost, cried huge, fake crocodile tears for years.

    Now it’s Kool-aid on ice.

    …and any defence force personnel, resign immediately, obeying wrongful orders is not a defence.

  28. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 30, 2013 12:20 pm

    28 deaths, how does that sit with the good christian consciences of the coalition? Obviously very well. The same people who demand every unviable foetus is a sacred life to be carried to term, happily demand that already existing lives be lost.

  29. September 30, 2013 12:24 pm

    So, under the previous government, Andrew Bolt’s daily updates, tirades, histrionics & tally keeping of every single boat doesn’t represent ” as soon as there is a tragedy and well before the facts are in the shrieking must begin?”

    Curious.

  30. TB Queensland permalink
    September 30, 2013 12:30 pm

    Really not a good look … has the general rescinded his holiday?

    Where is Scott Moron? … we know where Abbott is – away from cameras and microphones …

    And Lady Bishop is off poncing about at the UN (after calling it wasted time, money and effort on Rudd’s part) does the FM have to sit on the Security Council or can we nominate someone who knows what they are talking about?

  31. TB Queensland permalink
    September 30, 2013 12:31 pm

    Who is actually Acting PM? Barnaby?

  32. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 30, 2013 12:32 pm

    I would rather wait until the facts are in. I haven’t seen any evidence of an order to stand down, but that would certainly be a material fact. In the meantime KL is doing her best to amplify the shrieking twitterati.

  33. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 30, 2013 12:39 pm

    As I recall, Bolt reported the fact of boat arrivals and the tragedies and (correctly) attributed them to Rudd’s decision to abolish the Pacific solution. The response from the usual suspects was denial and an accusation that it was unseemly to start throwing blame around at the time of the tragedy. That would be the same hypocrites who are now shrieking the loudest.

  34. September 30, 2013 12:48 pm

    “Splatterbottom
    September 30, 2013 11:35 am
    The real blame for this tragedy is clearly with Rudd and the cheering mob that celebrated his ditching of the Pacific Solution”

    Hide like an elephant in the room there son, those chickens are circling and it would seem the government can’t afford the rising power costs for the electricity to power the emergency megaphone so they opted for a vow of silence while they bugger the Australian people….

    Love these bloke’s like vampires they hate their own reflection…pathetic and immoral as charged. Quoting Bolt…what a spoon fed knob 🙄

  35. TB Queensland permalink
    September 30, 2013 12:52 pm

    As I recall, Bolt reported the fact of boat arrivals and the tragedies and (correctly) attributed them to Rudd’s decision to abolish the Pacific solution.

    Always good to quote an expert …

    Rudd is no longer in “control” … it would seem that Abbott has lost control within a week …

    … oh, to be a “fly on the wall’ in Jakarta … wonder how long Abbott’s script is … maybe he uses the new Google glasses …

  36. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 30, 2013 12:52 pm

    ?warren truss = A/PM 🙂

    https://twitter.com/JDK_au/status/384501270624477185

  37. September 30, 2013 12:56 pm

    “As I recall, Bolt reported the fact of boat arrivals and the tragedies…”

    A pronounced, partisan tactic designed to keep unerring pressure on the government & presumably highlight the Coalition ‘alternative’, wouldn’t you say?
    Designed to encourage shrieking, outrage & condemnation incessantly amongst his fellow travellers, occasionally while the bodies were still in the water.

    All I’m doing is pointing out the hypocritical ideological pivoting which has occurred since the government changed hands.

    We’ve gone from ‘Stop The BOATS!!!” to ‘Hide the boats’.

    To his credit, Bolt initially made quiet noises of disapproval about the media blackout, but I imagine (as is his bent) he’ll find a way to make it rationalisably comfortable for himself & his minions & will get on with cheerleading for it.

  38. September 30, 2013 12:56 pm

    “The real blame for this tragedy is clearly with Rudd”

    Nonsense…

    Abbott said that his government would make a difference “on day one.”

    It appears that turning a blind eye to sinking boats is what he meant, regardless of the loss of life….

    And these people profess to be christians FFS…

  39. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 30, 2013 1:04 pm

    “Rudd is no longer in “control”

    How is that even relevant?

    “it would seem that Abbott has lost control within a week …”

    You think he should have fixed Rudd’s mess in a week? Abbott never had “control” to lose.

    Just be patient. No need to get hysterical. It is a bad look. If there is evidence that Abbott or Morrison ordered the rescue to be delayed then that is the time to sheet the blame home. It will be a far more effective attack on Abbott then as it is based on fact not hysteria.

  40. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 30, 2013 1:12 pm

    “A pronounced, partisan tactic designed to keep unerring pressure on the government & presumably highlight the Coalition ‘alternative’, wouldn’t you say?”

    Correctly laying the blame where it should lie. Maybe he went on about it a little too often, but it wasn’t that bad.

    “We’ve gone from ‘Stop The BOATS!!!” to ‘Hide the boats’.”

    Governments should never be trusted, especially when they try to hide information. He should be hammered for that.

    “Nonsense…
    Abbott said that his government would make a difference “on day one.”

    I doubt he will be able to stop the boats for some time yet. But the only reason people are still drowning is that policy which was doing just that was abandoned on a whim and wank.

    “It appears that turning a blind eye to sinking boats is what he meant, regardless of the loss of life….”

    That is the question I’d like to know the answer to.

  41. egg permalink
    September 30, 2013 1:14 pm

    ‘… wonder how long Abbott’s script is …’

    Abbott wanted to talk trade and investment and also explain why we are cutting our aid budget, Indonesian being our largest recipient. The boat tragedy will now become prominent on the agenda.

  42. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 30, 2013 1:31 pm

    It will be a far more effective attack on Abbott then as it is based on fact not hysteria.

    says the fols who have done nothing but screech hysterically in faux outrage for six years 😆

    hypocrisy much?

  43. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 30, 2013 1:34 pm

    I’ll be screeching a’plenty when there is reason for it. It shouldn’t take too long. But I’m not going to pile on to the latest nonsense unless there is a bit more to go on than the hysterical tweets of the looney left.

  44. September 30, 2013 1:37 pm

    BREAKING:

    A new boat carrying 80 asylum seekers has arrived at Christmas Island…

    http://www.news.com.au/national-news/boat-arrives-on-christmas-island-with-80-suspected-asylum-seekers/story-fncynjr2-1226729957013

    #Wewillmakeadifferencefromdayone

    #onetermtony

  45. September 30, 2013 1:51 pm

    So that another boat has arrived, can we so-called lefties get shrill now on a daily basis, given that that was Morrison’s modus operandi….??

  46. IPA permalink
    September 30, 2013 2:04 pm

    “can we so-called lefties get shrill now”

    I’d forgotten just how shrill the don’t-call-me-a-lefty lefty blogs were when Howard was in office. Nothing like a non-Labor government to energise the comrades troops.

  47. September 30, 2013 2:22 pm

    Haha, nothing to see here.

    Let’s all just ignore the fact that the new government is going out of its way to prevent public scrutiny.

    Drawing attention to that is ‘shrill’ because it, y’know, draws attention to it. 🙄

  48. September 30, 2013 2:23 pm

    Endless shrieking about the boats prior to the change of government wasn’t ‘shrill’ at all. Of course.

  49. IPA permalink
    September 30, 2013 2:27 pm

    “Endless shrieking about the boats prior to the change of government wasn’t ‘shrill’ at all. Of course.”

    And where did you notice this phenomenon, exactly? Not around these parts, I’d venture.

  50. September 30, 2013 2:43 pm

    “Not around these parts, I’d venture.”

    LABOR RAMPS UP RHETORIC ON ASYLUM SEEKERS

    https://theguttertrash.com/2013/07/02/labor-ramps-up-rhetoric-on-asylum-seekers/

    GILLARD GOVT CREATING A NEW UNDERCLASS OF ASYLUM SEEKERS

    https://theguttertrash.com/2013/05/29/gillard-govt-creating-a-new-underclass-of-asylum-seekers/

  51. TB Queensland permalink
    September 30, 2013 2:53 pm

    Abbott never had “control” to lose.

    Well we agree on something …

    No need to get hysterical

    😯 🙄 😆

  52. TB Queensland permalink
    September 30, 2013 2:57 pm

    “Not around these parts, I’d venture.”

    Forgive them for they know not what they do …

    How quickly they forget … 🙄 🙄 🙄

  53. TB Queensland permalink
    September 30, 2013 4:04 pm

    Of course! How silly of me … poor old Warren’s in charge …

    http://www.news.com.au/national-news/acting-prime-minister-for-the-day-warren-truss-leader-of-the-nationals/story-fncynjr2-1226729892256

  54. Walrus permalink
    September 30, 2013 4:24 pm

    So I pay a criminal syndicate to take me and my family by boat to Australia. I get on a very leaky boat with my family whose lives I am prepared to risk for a new life.

    So here I am on a leaky boat in Indonesian territorial waters and as it begins to turn back towards Indonesia it calls the Australian Authorities hundreds of kilometers away to request rescue. Then 50 metres off the coast of Indonesia my boat sinks.

    Of course the boat captain will not call the Indonesians who are 50 metres away.

    And it’s the Australian Government’s fault.

    Of course it is…………………

  55. TB Queensland permalink
    September 30, 2013 4:33 pm

    50 metres away … ? 🙄

  56. IPA permalink
    September 30, 2013 4:39 pm

    “50 metres away … ? 🙄 ”

    You mean every comment you made above was in complete ignorance of the facts? Say it isn’t so.

  57. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 30, 2013 4:44 pm

    “You mean every comment you made above was in complete ignorance of the facts?”

    Is this the first time you’ve noticed this habit?

  58. TB Queensland permalink
    September 30, 2013 4:47 pm

    I don’t think they were 50 metres off shore when Australian authorities were contacted … ToSY …

    Rescue on the high seas ignores national boundaries …

    Survivors say they rang Australian authorities for help on Thursday when both the boat’s engines broke during the voyage.

  59. September 30, 2013 4:49 pm

    Or was it 100 metres….??

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/survivor-tells-of-frantic-calls-to-australia-as-asylum-seeker-boat-sank/story-e6frg6so-1226729136533

    What does it matter anyway……I suppose 🙄

    “Our navy” can’t be expected to rescue every sinking ship now can they….

  60. September 30, 2013 4:51 pm

    “You mean every comment you made above was in complete ignorance of the facts?”

    What, you mean like “Not around these parts, I’d venture.” 🙄

  61. TB Queensland permalink
    September 30, 2013 4:52 pm

    Minister Moron, now admits that his department received a call on Friday morning …

    Its now Monday, FFS! Moron would have been crawling all over the last two governments …

    And yes there are a number of questions to be asked BUT we all know the longer it takes the easier the detail disappears …

  62. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 30, 2013 5:04 pm

    Hmmm. Morrison has expressed his outrage at the smear and denied delaying any rescue. What he has not done (and what he most certainly would have done if the facts suited him) was to provide a timeline of the relevant events – not just the time of the first call, but also the actions which were thereafter taken. That would be the quickest way to deal with the smears.

  63. September 30, 2013 5:57 pm

    “That would be the quickest way to deal with the smears reasonable questions..”

  64. September 30, 2013 5:58 pm

    Mirror.. Godzilla Chickens,, God, Karma… Someone should tell Pyne of the Vows of silence .I’m waiting for Pell the minister for dispensations…

  65. TB Queensland permalink
    September 30, 2013 6:16 pm

    Moron, is always “expressing his outrage” …

  66. September 30, 2013 6:22 pm

    always “expressing his outrage” …

    It’s a liberal party tradition… Why make an objective, impartial observation, when you can say it with outrage..

    😯

    ELECTION NOW!!

  67. TB Queensland permalink
    September 30, 2013 6:31 pm

    Imagine a coronial enquiry finding this government guilty of “inaction” …

  68. TB Queensland permalink
    September 30, 2013 7:03 pm

    Is it significant that our new PM was not met by the President of Indonesia?

    Just sayin’

  69. September 30, 2013 7:08 pm

    YES.

  70. public toilet permalink
    September 30, 2013 7:10 pm

    Pretty sure no excuses would have been made for the ALP if it had happened on their watch. Much less tolerated.

  71. September 30, 2013 7:22 pm

    “Much less tolerated.”

    Indeed Boss. Morriscum was holding anywhere between 2 and 3 press conferences each day when boats were arriving under Labor, now he reckons a weekly “update” is all that is required for what was a pre-election “National Emergency” but in a post-election environment is now just a “passing irritant”….

  72. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    September 30, 2013 7:43 pm

    It’s a disgrace!

  73. public toilet permalink
    September 30, 2013 7:44 pm

    Greedo died by the hand of Solo…

  74. egg permalink
    September 30, 2013 7:45 pm

    ‘Air Mshl Binskin disputed claims that Australian authorities had delayed their response to the distress calls from the boat for more than a day.

    “I would like to just clarify that at no point did Amsa (Australian Maritime Safety Authority) indicate that assistance would be provided in two hours, as has been reported to the media,” he said.

    “Nor was Amsa aware of the vessel for 26 hours prior to the vessel foundering, as has also been reported.”

    ‘Air Mshl Binskin said the first time authorities were told of the vessel was at 7.57am (AEST) on Friday, when an Australian Federal police officer on Christmas Island received a call from Melbourne, where a passenger on the boat had called.’

    Guardian

  75. September 30, 2013 8:15 pm

    Disgrace…

  76. egg permalink
    October 1, 2013 7:59 am

    “I appreciate how seriously Indonesia has taken this issue in the past, and I look forward to working even more co-operatively with Indonesia on this issue in the future.

    “But I do want to stress publicly as well as privately … Australia’s total respect for Indonesia’s sovereignty, total respect for Indonesia’s territorial integrity.”

    Tony Abbott (charismatic supreme leader)

  77. Sparta of Phoenix, AZ USA permalink
    October 1, 2013 8:28 am

    Of course the morons who boarded boats expecting somebody to come running if things went bad bear no responsibility with some here; nope not a chance…The disgrace is assuming it is the responsibility of some foreign government and its people to assist in your circumventing their laws for your gain. Even more so those here suggesting such people have a “right” to black mail an entire country….It is a tragedy but perhaps people will think twice before boarding a vessels now… The Left and its tortured logic…So painful…

  78. egg permalink
    October 1, 2013 8:37 am

    Hi Sparta, the left and their ‘tortured logic’ will soon become a thing of the past…. except at the cafe.

  79. October 1, 2013 8:45 am

    “It is a tragedy but perhaps people will think twice before boarding a vessels now”

    The ends thereby justifying the means.

    It’s a sad state of affairs when letting people drown is regarded as “acceptable”..

  80. Walrus permalink
    October 1, 2013 9:01 am

    Most 11 year olds I know would wake up each morning wondering where the Playstation is.

    But not Grace. Foremost in her mind is this……………………..

    “When eleven-year-old Grace asked her how she kept motivated in the face of the horrible sexism she checked her language but showed her strength. ”

    http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/dl-opinion/julia-gillard-atonement-and-a-wonderful-wave-of-lady-rage-20131001-2up5v.html

    And another 11 year old boy asked about Gay Marriage apparently…………..

  81. TB Queensland permalink
    October 1, 2013 9:11 am

    .It is a tragedy but perhaps people will think twice before boarding a vessels now… The Left and its tortured logic…So painful…

    Obviously, Sparta, hasn’t read some of the comments against the previous government by Abbott & The Acolytes … harmoniously led by Immigration Minister Scott Moron …

    All people here are doing is pointing out the stupidity of statements made in the past by the then Opposition … and watching you all “defend” as opposed to attack …

    A few facts (again) about how “serious” the problem really is …

    http://www.kochie.com.au/20100707165/avoid-the-political-spin-some-facts-on-asylum-seekers

    http://www.kochie.com.au/the-real-benefits-for-asylum-seekers-in-australia

    I’ve used Kochie ’cause most people seem to think he has cred … personally I’m not a big fan ..

    Just to put this in perspective how many people does the MCG hold – 100,000? The Suncorp Stadium in Brisbane holds 53,000 from memory … the cities population is now 2 million …

    So close your eyes and imagine 12,000 people in one of those stadiums … and if you are a capitalist you should know that the market system and profit is generated by large populations … not tiny ones … in very large countries …

    Just sayin’ … 🙄

  82. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 1, 2013 9:11 am

    When people drown at sea under an ALP government, it’s because they’ve been ‘lured to their deaths’

    When people drown at sea under a Liberal government it’s because…well they should just know better shouldn’t they?

  83. October 1, 2013 9:30 am

    Well put ToM.

  84. egg permalink
    October 1, 2013 9:45 am

    ‘So close your eyes and imagine 12,000 people in one of those stadiums …’

    I’m thinking they would be better suited in a small village in Tasmania.

  85. Sparta of Phoenix, AZ USA permalink
    October 1, 2013 10:26 am

    I just think the the mass migrations going on around the world now need to be seen as just that and not as some unique individual experience here or blamed on one faction, event etc. We have Mexican’s dying in our desert here with much of the same press you guys are covering here…Sri Lankan’s vs. Mexican…All very poor people trying to better their lives…I don’t fault anybody for trying to better their situation but I do think pretending it is anything other than that or addressing it as something it is not just delays any real steps being made towards a solution….If you don’t know what the problem is you can never hope to solve it…

  86. IPA permalink
    October 1, 2013 10:27 am

    “Abbott Govt Left Asylum Seekers to Drown”

    Probably not.

  87. egg permalink
    October 1, 2013 10:32 am

    ‘If you don’t know what the problem is you can never hope to solve it…’

    Strongly Agree.

  88. TB Queensland permalink
    October 1, 2013 11:09 am

    We have Mexican’s dying in our desert here with much of the same press you guys are covering here…Sri Lankan’s vs. Mexican

    When was the last civil war in Mexico???

    If you don’t know what the problem is you can never hope to solve it…

    Which problem do you prefer:

    Civil war …

    Post civil war …

    Arseholes blowing people up because they aren’t Muslims or Christians …

    USA government agencies who think they can run the world …

    USA Robber Barons who think wars are good for profit … eg Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush …

    USA agencies setting up dictators … then trying to bring them down …

    Drug Robber Barons …

    Starvation …

    Drought …

    Warlords …

    Invasion (USA – Australia – NATO) …

    Poverty …

    Inequality …

    Desperation …

    A future for their children …

    Tell me, Sparta, why does the USA have so many mass shootings of innocent people? Maybe that problem is one you could work on … 🙄

  89. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 1, 2013 11:19 am

    I haven’t been to Mexico for quite a long time, but I’d observe that the level of social dislocation/stratification and general lawlessness was not too far removed from civil war.

    Regions of Mexico contained all the gang related violence that characterises the path to civil war.

    I think people would flee some parts of the country and the USA is a safe(r) haven

  90. October 1, 2013 11:47 am

    “All people here are doing is pointing out the stupidity of statements made in the past by the then Opposition … and watching you all “defend” as opposed to attack ”

    That about sums it up.

  91. egg permalink
    October 1, 2013 11:54 am

    ‘Regions of Mexico contained all the gang related violence that characterises the path to civil war.’

    Typical Catlick behaviour.

  92. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 1, 2013 12:00 pm

    But not Grace. Foremost in her mind is this……………………..
    “When eleven-year-old Grace asked her how she kept motivated in the face of the horrible sexism she checked her language but showed her strength. ”

    The women of the future won’t cop the inequality of today. They will demand their equal share in the fortunes of the country and equal opportunity to succeed. They will not be held back by men who think it is their natural right to keep them down or grant them success if they play by their rules.

    I miss the colour, the intelligence and fire of gillard. Last night’s conversation with Anne Summers highlighted the best of her, she is still streets ahead of any male politician in the country when it comes to courage under fire and inspiration toa generations to come.

    It’s like politics has overnight gone monotone. The dull grey men in blue ties reeking of sameness and dis-reputation, can’t be trusted to open their mouths in front of a camera because they’d show how ordinary and devious they really are.

    It is our loss, the shame of it all was the national sexism on display, the open hatred and feral hostility shown by the ugliest, pig ignorant and most despicable of people to someone that many others in the community admire and support. The disrespect to all women by the treatment of one.

    All I can say is that I hope abbott and co never have one comfortable day in government and labor do not take the high road with them. I hope they get nothing through the parliament and labor sink the boot in every day and in every way they can. I hope the treasonous plotting & corruption/collusion with public servants to bring down a legitimate government takes them to court. I hope rudd is never heard of or seen again.

    History will show that it was a good government, one with a vision and the wish to do more for the common good of the people, that it was a time when the worst was brought out in people, an inducement for all to go feral, for the worst of reasons, naked power, revenge and spite.

    women should never forget.

  93. egg permalink
    October 1, 2013 12:48 pm

    ‘History will show that it was a good government,’

    Strongly Disagree

  94. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 1, 2013 1:24 pm

    Gillard broke her written commitment, without a public apology, I don’t know whether she offered Wilkie a private one.

    Her problem related to her character rather than her personality.

  95. Splatterbottom permalink
    October 1, 2013 1:31 pm

    “I miss … the intelligence … of gillard.”

    You’ve missed nothing then.

    She was a hopeless PM, like a deer frozen in the headlights. She came blood-soaked to power as a creature of the factions. To stay there she had no problem breaking her promises and bending the country over for the Greens’ pleasure. She shamelessly supported the grubby brothel-creeper Craig Thomson and when called out in the very act of supporting the misogynist grub she appointed Speaker she started caterwauling about misogyny. It is that rank and stupid hypocrisy she will be most remembered for – in a good way by hysterical nutcases and as hideously dishonest incompetent by everyone else. And that is before the police finalise their investigation into her earlier indiscretions.

  96. Walrus permalink
    October 1, 2013 1:43 pm

    Does he think we are all stupid ?

    Seriously who is he trying to kid………………Chris Bowen has shredded any credibility he had left………….

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/kevin-rudd-did-not-undermine-julia-gillard-says-acting-labor-leader-chris-bowen-20131001-2uptw.html

  97. Walrus permalink
    October 1, 2013 1:48 pm

    “History will show that it was a good government, one with a vision and the wish to do more for the common good of the people, ”

    Vision and Wishes are cheap.

    It’s the implementation that falls heavily upon the public purse.

  98. Walrus permalink
    October 1, 2013 1:50 pm

    “I hope rudd is never heard of or seen again.”

    Oh……………..he’ll be back alright……………………LOL

    He ain’t done with yet…………….!

  99. Splatterbottom permalink
    October 1, 2013 2:04 pm

    “He ain’t done with yet…………….!”

    The ALP has no cure for Herpes Rudd. Just when the ALP starts looking flash again he will be there to disfigure its pretty face. Herpes Rudd a great emblem for the ALP – a virus so embedded it can’t be removed; a symbol, as herpes often is, of their good intentions but very poor judgment.

  100. Walrus permalink
    October 1, 2013 3:52 pm

    “The ALP has no cure for Herpes Rudd”

    They could expel him on the first sign of disloyalty. Its not as though they need his seat/vote to oppose anything this time around.

    I’d be booting him for sure.

  101. TB Queensland permalink
    October 1, 2013 4:50 pm

    oh, how we laughed and laughed …

    http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/national/abbott-gives-fresh-assurances-on-boat-plan/story-e6frfku9-1226730379723

    “We are 100 per cent committed to stopping the boats, we are 100 per cent committed to the policies that we took to the election and the policies that are necessary to stop the boats.”

    But the prime minister on Tuesday also twice refused to say whether the turn-back plan would actually be implemented, while also appearing to step back from two other controversial elements of his asylum-seeker policy.

    Asked directly whether he would turn boats back, Mr Abbott said: “Again, my object here is to stop the boats and in order to ensure the boats are stopped, I want to have the best possible relationship with Indonesia.

    “I’m just not going to engage in the kind of press banter that is not going to be conducive to what is in our overall national interests, Australia’s and Indonesia’s, to get these boats stopped.” …

    … Two other controversial measures in the coalition’s border protection regime – buying boats from Indonesian fishermen to prevent them being used by people smugglers and bounty payments to villagers who inform on smuggling operations – now appear unlikely to be implemented.

    Ignorant hypocrisy … just another rank amateur, how long has this wanker been in parliament?

  102. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 1, 2013 5:28 pm

    Gillard broke her written commitment, without a public apology, I don’t know whether she offered Wilkie a private one.

    It’s called the cut and thrust of politics and they all do it. You accept it from any male politician but gillard was crucified for behaving like the rest of them. A different standard was demanded of her. You’re kidding yourself if you think abbott hasn’t lied again and again to get into the lodge. Why do you think there is a media blackout and all ministers have to go through a central office to get their instructions before making any statements?

    STOP THE BOATS – big fail, as everyone except the rusted ons knew it would be.

    Big back down and much grovelling apology to indonesia because the business community demands he repair the damage of over aggressive chest beating. I think he hides behind the skirts of margie and the girls, uses them to protect him from his own actions. Hasn’t margie got a child care centre to manage?

    HIDE THE BOATS

    and

    HIDE FROM MEDIA – will progress

  103. October 1, 2013 6:03 pm

    It’s hilarious to see the rapid transformation of pre-election Abbott – all bold and aggressive about how they’re going to tell Indonesia what they will and won’t do, and the post-election reality-struck Abbott which has been reduced to a quivering shadow of his former self..

    STOP THE GLOATS.

  104. Sparta of Phoenix AZ permalink
    October 1, 2013 6:47 pm

    “Tell me, Sparta, why does the USA have so many mass shootings of innocent people? Maybe that problem is one you could work on … :roll:”

    Oh TB, lay off the sauce dude…Imbecility even from you is imbecility…Feel good idiots like yourself encouraging desperate people to board boats in a highly risky endeavor to begin with (yes with your misplaced compassion) and who then act so “upset” when that risk comes to fruition just highlights either your lack of sobriety or stupidity…Probably both…

    I think mass shootings will go away when we are able to read minds you twit…You cannot expect to live in a free society with the mentally ill and a culture that has been degraded over the past 40 plus years due to moronic theories espoused by Left wing ilk, without some fallout…

    There are consequences to bad social policy and experimentation! Much like the consequences of dismantling policies that were working in Australia by some idiotic party who rolled in with all of their profound ideas and compassion down your way….

  105. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 1, 2013 7:00 pm

    It should be mentioned that I think we have the world record for number of people killed in a mass shooting. At Port Arthur.

  106. public toilet permalink
    October 1, 2013 7:12 pm

    Yes…and then we wisely implemented gun control.

    Also, hasn’t breivik since eclipsed the ‘record’?

    Blaming the left for mass shootings is fkn ridiculous, Sparta.

  107. TB Queensland permalink
    October 1, 2013 7:13 pm

    G’day Sparta , didn’t answer the question I see … just me …

    I like this … There are consequences to bad social policy and experimentation! … so many applications … “… the right to carry arms …” and shoot the fuck out of anyone …

    BTW I don’t encourage …

    Feel good idiots like yourself encouraging desperate people to board boats in a highly risky endeavor to begin with (yes with your misplaced compassion) and who then act so “upset” when that risk comes to fruition just highlights either your lack of sobriety or stupidity…Probably both…

    I’m a believer in processing here, onshore …

    Go home and stop weapon sales around the world … help stop the wars … help to build people’s lives … control Wall street … and your stupid government … sort your own shit out … then preach to Australians …

  108. October 1, 2013 8:03 pm

    Well yes, I figured you would mention something like the “right to bear arms” TB, most morons do…Just one problem; do you know the history of mass shootings in this country since you decided to mouth off about it? Here, this is called logic and reasoning…My country has been around how long? In that time how many times in its history with the “right to bear arms” in place throughout have we had “mass shootings”? When did they start and why? See how that works big guy? If it was the “right to bear arms” that is to blame by your reasoning, mass shootings should have been occurring all along but for some reason they really didn’t come into the Western lexicon until when?

    Now that aside, in regards to the “asylum drama” when and how did you get to the current predicament? Boats before vs. boats after? See how that works? Processing onshore? Hmm, does that encourage or discourage people from taking the risk in question? You’re hopeless….

  109. October 1, 2013 8:07 pm

    ……. I’m just going to make a batch of popcorn and find a comfortable chair…..

  110. October 1, 2013 8:12 pm

    “Blaming the left for mass shootings is fkn ridiculous, Sparta.”

    Well I would say I that a degrading culture probably has had more to do with growing violence then say “the right to bear arms”…I can easily make a case for “leftwing policies” and causes that have contributed to the social degradation I refer too. The “left” keeps going back to the tired “gun law” argument…As mentioned above; Australia and Norway…Tell me, did you have a “right to bear arms” or in Norway’s case, lax gun laws as well? Use your brains….Now can you get back to the topic at hand…People are dying at sea because of all of your compassion and dismantling of policies that were working….

  111. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 1, 2013 8:27 pm

    AO – ”It’s called the cut and thrust of politics and they all do it.”

    I would be interested to know of another Prime Minster, or leader, who has made a written commitment to another MP, then simply walked away from it.

    In my opinion, that was the most crooked political act I can recall.

  112. public toilet permalink
    October 1, 2013 9:20 pm

    Gun control has worked well here, Sparta, FYI.

    Obviously the horse has already bolted over in nunuland. If you seriously believe that gross proliferation of firearms throughout your civilian population doesn’t contribute to mass shootings, well then you can’t see the wood for the trees.

    TB, is pro-armament, so your stabs at him are way off target.

    It was a conservative PM who established gun control here, btw. Best thing he ever did.

  113. public toilet permalink
    October 1, 2013 9:26 pm

    Can’t remember the last time our government shut down either.

    No doubt you’ll sheet today’s happenings in your country home to leftists as well. Because any modicum of universal healthcare makes US conservatives piss their knickers.

    Think of all the money you could’ve saved if you’d avoided getting mired in foreign invasions & occupations over the last decade or so.

  114. egg permalink
    October 1, 2013 9:42 pm

    Toilet makes a strong argument, arms proliferation instead of universal health care seems weird and unchristian.

  115. egg permalink
    October 1, 2013 9:44 pm

    ooops… I mean weird and inhumane.

  116. October 1, 2013 10:07 pm

    Public,

    Gun control has not stopped homicides by firearms in Australia and there have been conflicting reports on just what effect said laws have had in general. Some say none at all! As I was pointing out, “the right to bear arms” is hardly the cause of mass shootings which was the original stab…You want to make a case for laws contributing to “gun violence” fine but gun laws in and of themselves are not going to change anything here nor in Australia…Australia has discovered just like we have that taking guns from law abiding citizens or making it harder for them to get them has done little to stop criminals or the mentally ill from episodes of violence.

    You will see as your population grows and its people become more disconnected, balkanized etc. violence will increase but this is not really related to the “purported refugee issue” and said bad policy is it… The point being, when you live in a free society it comes with different kinds of risks and those risks only increase when you have a defunct culture…

    Our culture has been in decline for the past 40 plus years; mass shootings just highlight this; sadly…The “left” bears a lot of the responsibility for its reckless social experiments just for the sake of and bad policies…Much like dismantling a process that was working because it didn’t make people feel good; tell me is dead better? To deny that the Left aka Labor’s “bad ideas” does not contribute to death at sea is to deny reality…

  117. October 1, 2013 10:20 pm

    “Because any modicum of universal healthcare makes US conservatives piss their knickers.”

    Umm that is just ludicrous dude…First and foremost, it isn’t just “universal healthcare”…That has a nice feel good sound to it, as was intended but it is so good our own congress and president has exempted themselves from participating in it; as well as all of the president’s friends like labor unions etc…It is a colossal cluster, partisan fiasco! There are better ways to do it and implement it and that’s all that has been proposed…How about we fix the entitlement programs we already have that are insolvent before we create another one? Moronic feel good gestures do not make good policy; especially when said “doo gooders” don’t have to feel the effects of their stupidity either because they have “exempted” themselves or will not live long enough to see its failure…

    “Think of all the money you could’ve saved if you’d avoided getting mired in foreign invasions & occupations over the last decade or so.”

    Agreed…We have learned rather painfully that some cultures should evolve on their own…So we should sit back like the rest of the world and let them slaughter each other by any means necessary because nobody seems to give a crap until there is an American’s around to blame for it. Oh but then we can be lambasted for not doing anything; I will take the later though as the rest of the world has and DO NOTHING…It is not worth our treasure or our blood to try and bring people out of the 7th century if they are not ready to do the work themselves…German’s and Japanese are not Iraqi, Syrian or Afghanis….There goes the idea of multiculturalism, another colossal failure…

  118. October 2, 2013 12:46 am

    “Gun control has not stopped homicides by firearms in Australia”

    Who said it stopped homicides by firearms? As long as there are firearms, there will be firearm related homicides.
    But mass shootings? The lack of proliferation has absolutely curtailed mass shootings here. Care to point out the last Australian mass shooting?
    I’m pretty sure I could tally a few in the US.

    Put simply, without insultingly easy access to grossly overpowered & unnecessary firearms (assault weapons, FFS- what are they needed by the general population for?…assaulting schools? 😯 ) the nutjobs you cower from are not able to instigate the same kinds of murderous rampages in the heat of the moment. Try killing 30+ people with an axe handle or a sword. 🙄

    Gun ownership is endemic to your culture. I’m very pleased it’s (generally) viewed as the fraught peril which it is in mine.
    I doubt it will change for you over there. As I said earlier, it’s entrenched…the horse is over the hills & far away. Unfortunately, the horrific headlines will continue for you.
    Imagine being so paranoid of eachother that you feel the need to wield lethal force to salve your insecurities; as a nation.

    I do take your point on healthcare. Population wise, the US & Australia are apples & oranges. Here, we are used to a relatively reliable system. The cutthroat nature of yours is foreign to us.
    However, my point was to draw attention to the prioritisation of funding. Foreign military engagement versus ‘civilised’ care of your own citizens.

    I know you are no fool, Sparta. I’ve had the privilege of engaging with you on occasion for many years now. I’m not anti-American. I just don’t deify the US. Nor Australia.

  119. October 2, 2013 12:55 am

    “To deny that the Left aka Labor’s “bad ideas” does not contribute to death at sea is to deny reality…”

    You’re barking up the wrong tree again there. I accept facts.

    However, the Coalition’s response has been purely political. It continues to represent a colossal sloganeering wankfest which is doomed to failure.

    I actually do have a grasp of geopolitics & the nature of man. People are not going to stop trying to get here. For a variety of reasons…& who can blame them.
    I’m not sure that an arrogant, dismissive national response to the inevitable is the right way to go.
    I even concede that a lot of the bleeding hearts are bleeding hearts up until NIMBY prevails upon them. More human predictability.
    I certainly don’t have the answers & don’t pretend to. But I’m not a sucker for blatant dogwhistling either.

    Imagine if we actually had land borders, like you guys do. 😯 The magnitude of our ‘problem’ is insignificant, compared to what’s going on in the rest of the world. Syrian refugees fleeing across all borders, anyone?

  120. October 2, 2013 1:40 am

    Oh, yeah…

    This is bullshit-

    ” the Left aka Labor”

    Labor are far more ‘middle-right’ now than they’ve ever been.

    It all depends upon the perspective you have from where you stand along the ideological faultline.

  121. IPA permalink
    October 2, 2013 6:26 am

    It warms the heart to see an “independent
    -thinking-don’t-call-me-a-lefty” spring to the defence of the left so gallantly. It really does. 😉

  122. October 2, 2013 8:48 am

    Oh look – a sideline sniper……

  123. October 2, 2013 10:50 am

    Huh?!

    What? Because I bothered to point out that Labor aren’t the left? You fuckers don’t get to just make conflated assertions without challenge.

    Labor is hardly the Greens. US politics is hardly synonymous with Australian politics.

    As I said, it was a conservative PM who brought in the gun laws here. If you read closely, I even praised him for it…a conservative PM. But somehow I’m being lambasted for ‘defending the left’. *shrug

  124. October 2, 2013 10:53 am

    Any comment on what I actually said?

  125. TB Queensland permalink
    October 2, 2013 11:04 am

    Mmmm … according to Sparta I’m …

    An idiot

    Drunk

    An imbecile

    A misplaced compassionate 😯 .. ta

    Act upset

    A twit

    Hopeless

    Then I read the remaining posts … a couple of things …

    I tend to agree with most things that, Toillette, posts … so its goodnight from him and its good night from me, too …

    And after reading, Sparta’s, posts here, I just hope that he doesn’t own any weapons ….

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    It warms the heart to see an “independent
    -thinking-don’t-call-me-a-lefty” spring to the defence of the left so gallantly. It really does.

    Was that a snideline sniper, sreb?

    In fact Toillette wasn’t defending anyone (‘cept me, ta, T) but while I do lean more left than right we will both argue against silly, incorrect or illogical statements by anyone … left, right, centre or stupid …

  126. Sparta of Phoenix, AZ USA permalink
    October 2, 2013 11:23 pm

    “People are not going to stop trying to get here. For a variety of reasons…& who can blame them.”

    Well for once I agree. That is the same scenario we find ourselves in with our neighbors to the south of us. It is interesting you note “the land border” scenario which is why I find it so damn puzzling that despite your geography this is even an issue? Like our problem with “illegal arrivals” this “issue” could be stopped overnight with a bit of political will but your political class would rather treat it as a “political hot potato” just like ours. The most frustrating part of this topic when you get down to it though is not with the political class, I get them and their motivations (crooks all).

    My frustration comes with the citizenry who, lemming like, take up the same “potato” without ever really asking or pointing out the obvious. They just become mouthpiece extensions for those same politicians and phony arguments…Really, let’s immediately point the finger at the dude that just took up office a month ago because, if you can believe it, a boat has sunk? What a surprise, how shocking. I don’t have any love for Abbot but really, maybe you guys should just put Australian officials in Indonesian waters to verify all vessels are seaworthy before they depart; hell build a bridge…It is like having to listen to a particular person over at CW or his biggest puppet here, go on for years about there being no “pull factors”; this is all push created by American intervention…Yet, we clearly see that when policy is changed in Australia, while world politics has actually improved, there is an obvious increase in numbers…This is not difficult to grasp but some here, one in particular likes to chime in with silly, simplistic “gibberish”…This mycobacterium adds nothing but false “compassion” however compassion is not going to fix the push or the pull now is it? Just add to the “pull” and deaths at sea! Brilliant…..

    Cheers; it was a pleasure jousting….

  127. egg permalink
    October 3, 2013 7:16 am

    I’ve floated the concept before and it remains a worthwhile stop gap. The government buys an old luxury cruise ship ready for the wreckers yard and plonks it just outside Indonesian waters to attract all wannabe Australians.

    On board would be medical and immigration staff who will determine right of passage. As real Australians are leaving Tasmania in droves all illegal guest workers could be sent there to fill the gap, while genuine refugees are flown straight to the mainland.

    The cruise ship is permanently stationed and the asylum seekers will be shipped to Tasmania by ferry or something.

    I’ll see if I can find who originally came up with the idea of the cruise ship… think it was in the Daily Terror.

  128. October 3, 2013 7:26 am

    Well I would say that would turn into one hell of a pull factor there egg….Just saying…

  129. egg permalink
    October 3, 2013 7:47 am

    We could have grabbed the Love Boat for a song.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/07/us-turkey-loveboat-idUSBRE9760TZ20130807

    Scott Morrison says it costs the Australian taxpayer $4 million to accommodate the illegal guest workers from every fishing boat that turns up at Xmas Island, surely we can reduce those costs.

    The Australian government would not be offering a ‘pull factor’, the illegal guest workers would fly back to Iran after only one winter in Tasmania. With a mini ice age fast approaching it will be our gulag, a dog forsaken place.

  130. egg permalink
    October 3, 2013 9:59 am

    The alternative could be a state of the art satellite city in the Simpson Desert. Welcome all who enter here.

  131. October 3, 2013 10:04 pm

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/04/world/europe/scores-die-in-shipwreck-off-sicily.html?_r=0

    See how this “blaming” a PM is fruitless? The entire developing world is on the move…

  132. egg permalink
    October 3, 2013 10:44 pm

    All those unaccompanied children from Somalia is no surprise.

  133. TB Queensland permalink
    October 4, 2013 10:28 am

    See how this “blaming” a PM is fruitless? The entire developing world is on the move…

    erm, that is a prime argument here, Abbott and Scott Moron the Minister for Immigration and Warships spent almost six years blaming two ALP PM’s … and promising to “stop the boats” … some of us are pointing out the hypocrisy of such beliefs … thanks for agreeing, Sparta. the FACTS speak for themselves, don’t they?

  134. Splatterbottom permalink
    October 4, 2013 10:44 am

    D’oh.

    The boats had stopped.

    The ALP, to the applause of the wanking classes but for no good reason, in a fit of moral exhibitionism, reversed the policy that was working and was not damaging anyone as virtually no boats were coming anymore.

    The ALP was rightly hammered for re-starting the grisly trade and drowning over a thousand people. In a display of monumental incompetence it announced the East Timor Solution before it had even spoken to East Timor and ended up looking deeply stupid, and then there was the Malaysian Solution which was illegal. Gillard and her goons demonstrated real class by attacking the High Court judges. For that alone they deserve to be mocked and shat on.

    Abbott and Morrison made it clear that it would take some time to stop the boats again and they have started to implement their policies. Abbott has just concluded a successful trip to Indonesia. It is a bit premature to start blaming them for every boat that arrives (unless you are more interested in political gamesmanship than in reason and logic).

  135. egg permalink
    October 4, 2013 11:40 am

    Morrison looks good taking 500 genuine asylum seekers from Syria.

  136. Splatterbottom permalink
    October 4, 2013 11:59 am

    Sounds like a fair swap our jihadis go over there to blow themselves up and we get some more peaceful types.

  137. TB Queensland permalink
    October 4, 2013 1:03 pm

    sb, if you ever actually read my posts … I’ve said before and I’ll repeat again …I DO NOT SEE ASYLUM SEEKERS OR REFUGEES AS A THREAT TO AUSTRALIA!

    Howard was wrong, Rudd was wrong, Gillard was wrong, Abbott and Morrison were/are wrong … hypocrisy … get it now?

    In fact … its the boat folk, who seem to be made of the sterner stuff that made this country what it is …

    … if they are genuine … all 4,000 (or thereabouts) of them should be made welcome … AND PROCESSED ONSHORE … non-genuine should be sent home … but carefully … I for one consider Tamils to still be at risk of persecution … just an opinion of course – but the FACTS are being gathered as I type …

    Why not ask Indonesia to help set up Australian assessment centres in Indonesia?

  138. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 4, 2013 1:07 pm

    “DO NOT SEE ASYLUM SEEKERS OR REFUGEES AS A THREAT TO AUSTRALIA!

    Based on the numbers we were getting just before the election, it added up to about 50,000 boat people/year. This could easily double.

    Do you think we should take all 30 million refugees or have a quota system??

    It also means people in UNHCR camps will no longer get access to Australia. Just boat people.

  139. egg permalink
    October 4, 2013 1:47 pm

    The two leaders had a frank and open discussion on the issue, so the boats should stop coming pretty soon. Abbott must have made an offer too good to refuse.

  140. TB Queensland permalink
    October 4, 2013 1:56 pm

    EVEN MORE FACTS:

    http://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/r/stat-as.php

  141. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 4, 2013 1:58 pm

    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/foreign-affairs-minister-bob-carr-warns-of-new-breed-of-asylum-seeker-driven-by-economic-factors/story-fnihsrf2-1226679860563

    “FOREIGN Affairs Minister Bob Carr fears asylum-seeker numbers could double unless a new approach is found to stop the influx of boats.

    The nature of the challenge has changed for us,” he said. “It’s no longer a tiny number, it’s 3000 or more a month – that’s 40,000 a year – it could go higher, and that’s 20 per cent of the Australian migrant intake.

  142. TB Queensland permalink
    October 4, 2013 2:02 pm

    AND SOME VERY INTERESTING FACTS:

    http://unhcr.org.au/unhcr/files/2012_Asylum_Trends.pdf

  143. TB Queensland permalink
    October 4, 2013 2:05 pm

    If you check some of the FACTS, in the links above, you’ll notice that the nimbers of asylum seekers/refugees fluctuate throughout the world … I wonder why that could be?

    Ooops can’t speculate …

    You’ll also notice that we are well down the list of accepting our UNHCR responsibilities …

    ENJOY!

  144. TB Queensland permalink
    October 4, 2013 2:14 pm

    BRITISH soldiers have shut down the last patrol base in Afghanistan, which was once an insurgent hotbed but has now been made safe, as the drawdown of troops continues.

    http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/world/uk-soldiers-shut-last-afghan-patrol-base/story-e6frfkui-1226732909659

    Now if one were allowed to SPECULATE, you might hypothesise that the withdrawal of Nato troops from Afghanistan just might increase the flow of asylum seekers from their towards the end of next year … still we’ll just have to wait for the FACTS after they arrive here (and elsewhere in the world … probably in 2015 … bugger

  145. TB Queensland permalink
    October 4, 2013 2:16 pm

    Kneel, you must come up with FACTS … not some politicians POSTULATION …

  146. Splatterbottom permalink
    October 4, 2013 2:23 pm

    “get it now?”

    Apparently you don’t as you have made no attempt to address the issue I raised.

    You said:

    erm, that is a prime argument here, Abbott and Scott Moron the Minister for Immigration and Warships spent almost six years blaming two ALP PM’s … and promising to “stop the boats” … some of us are pointing out the hypocrisy of such beliefs …

    I noted:

    1. A major part of the criticism (that you failed to mention) was that the ALP had willfully and for no good reason other than their own hubris, created the problem and drowned a thousand people in the process; and

    2. The real idiocy here was pouncing on Abbott fro not having stopped the boats already.

    Clearly it is not hypocritical to have hammered the ALP for their vain, murderous incompetence while waiting to see if Abbott’s approach actually works before hammering him.

    Your statement above is evidence of a preference on your part for political gamesmanship over reason.

    Get it now?

  147. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 4, 2013 2:24 pm

    It was your politicians postulation. And it was not a postulation. Bob carr said we were getting 3,000 (or more) boat people /month.

    Was he lying??

  148. egg permalink
    October 4, 2013 3:26 pm

    The positive news is that the Indonesian president sees Abbott as the political son of Howard. With Apec coming up this can’t be a bad thing.

  149. egg permalink
    October 4, 2013 3:48 pm

    Greg Sheridan looks at the cold hard facts.

    ‘Australia is a nation built on legal immigration. The integrity of our immigration policy is absolutely core to the integrity of our national project. The social costs of a predominantly Muslim, poorly educated population with little English would be huge.

    ‘A large part of the attraction of Australia is the extremely generous welfare system. Most people who arrive illegally by boat do not get jobs, even after five years. The financial costs would also be enormous.’

    – See more at: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/abbott-in-indonesia-the-adventure-begins/story-e6frg76f-1226731820800#sthash.0eFZNyqJ.dpuf

  150. TB Queensland permalink
    October 4, 2013 3:59 pm

    sb,

    I don’t expect Abbott to stop the boats … I don’t expect anyone to stop the boats … why you get all shrill and accusatory is beyond me …

    … blaming the ALP for drownings is simply your opinion and evidence of a preference on your part for political gamesmanship over reason.

    Personally I think they are all a bunch of wankers – you seem to like some of ’em …

    … quite frankly I don’t give a shit about political games when it comes to human beings …

    … Repeat for the deaf …

    I DO NOT SEE ASYLUM SEEKERS OR REFUGEES AS A THREAT TO AUSTRALIA!

    Do you, sb?

  151. TB Queensland permalink
    October 4, 2013 4:04 pm

    Kneel, he is NOT “my politician” … 🙄 🙄

  152. Splatterbottom permalink
    October 4, 2013 4:43 pm

    “why you get all shrill and accusatory is beyond me”

    Because you made a really silly argument – that it is hypocritical for Abbott and Morrison to have called out out the ALP for re-igniting the boat-people trade and to blame them for the arrival of thousands of boats. I just don’t get it. Clearly we have not had time to assess the effectiveness of their policies and they always said it would take some time for their policies to work.

    “I DO NOT SEE ASYLUM SEEKERS OR REFUGEES AS A THREAT TO AUSTRALIA!”

    No need to shout – makes you look like you are grandstanding. And that is not a simple question. In fact is the type of insulting BS question replete with overtones of smug moral self-righteousness and no awareness of the complexity of the issue.

    I have repeatedly said here that we can and should take in many more refugees. However, stopping the people-smuggling trade is important. Stopping it stops deaths. It enables more resources to be put into accommodating genuine refugees. It enables easier vetting and weeding out of economic migrants and trouble-makers.

    What we need to do is to actually provide decent services with refugees who do come here to better integrate them into society. We should only take refugees to the extent that we are prepared to do that. It is no good landing them here and leaving them to rot.

    And it is not just the economic cost. People in certain suburbs do not like the fact that they can’t walk the streets at night anymore. Or that we even need to have a Middle-Eastern Crime Squad. If we don’t get the integration right then we have to slow down with groups that are particularly hard to integrate. Newcomers need to learn that freedom of speech is non-negotiable and they need to understand that their religion is not going to be respected by everybody else. Also, it would be a big mistake to take in LTTE supporters or Hamas supporters or supporters of any other terrorist group.

    And don’t even talk to me about our UN obligations. The UN is a contemptible joke. I strongly believe that we should be governed by our own laws and that were they conflict with a treaty or international obligation they should prevail.

  153. TB Queensland permalink
    October 4, 2013 4:59 pm

    sb,

    I’ll come back to that post … it is quite long and I’m otherwise engaged for a while.

    I will say this though … from what I read we actually agree, more than we disagree …

    May argument is the approach that ALL governments have taken is wrong …

    The focus has been on how we CAN”T help refugees, rather than how we CAN help them to the advantage of both parties … Success Comes in Cans! (I was once sent to a “management seminar” and that was the Yankee snake oil trainers catch cry!) Still it is a truism many people concentrate on the negative rather than the positive … gotta go.

  154. October 6, 2013 4:01 am

    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/world/july-dec13/migrants2_10-04.html

    Doesn’t this discussion sound oh too familiar? No pull factors here I suppose…”The majority seeking refugee status will not be granted as such”…Economic Migrants; now once we can all agree on the most prominent PUSH factor we might begin to have a discussion on solutions…

  155. October 6, 2013 4:03 am

    SB @ 4.43,

    Well said…

  156. egg permalink
    October 6, 2013 11:30 am

    Yep, seeing things as they exist, devoid of ideology, is the important first step in resolving the problem of illegal economic migrants.

  157. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 6, 2013 12:11 pm

    Clearly we have not had time to assess the effectiveness of their policies and they always said it would take some time for their policies to work.

    And how do you propose we do that when there is a media blackout and the whole operation is hidden behind military secrecy? When they are not going to divulge any promised towbacks?

    Abbott promised to make a difference from day one, he promised to stop the boats.

    You’ve been had, but now you reckon we should give abbott all the time in the world to sort it, something you refused to give labor who were working with indonesia.

    Abbott is hypocritical. Hide the boats is not stopping the boats.

  158. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 6, 2013 12:26 pm

    The only time you will hear about boat people being a problem is when the coalition is in opposition.
    Fear driven propaganda is their MO, making people very frightened of whatever manufactured threat they produce. The economic threat, the crisis is another ‘monster’ of their own invention. The pantzwetters never fail in their automatic loss of sphincter control, right on cue, they start squirting.
    it is the only way the coalition of nutters ever get into government.

    What kind of ‘grown-ups’ need to frighten their children with the boogeyman?

  159. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 6, 2013 12:32 pm

    And it is not just the economic cost. People in certain suburbs do not like the fact that they can’t walk the streets at night anymore.

    Women aren’t safe to do that in the best of suburbs and streets, that’s largely because of white australian males, the rape culture is with all men, not just certain groups of them.

    We only get concerned when men don’t feel safe? Interesting.

  160. egg permalink
    October 6, 2013 12:45 pm

    When our supreme leader said he would stop the boats on day one, he meant this government would commence doing something about it…. seriously.

  161. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 6, 2013 12:55 pm

    “Women aren’t safe to do that in the best of suburbs and streets, that’s largely because of white australian males, the rape culture is with all men, not just certain groups of them.

    I agree, and it’s about time society started taking protection of women seriously. If a man is convicted of a violent crime against a woman, he should be required to wear a tracking device and observe a curfew for a decade after his release.

    The rate of recidivism among rapists is an outrage, and people are entitled to have a greater sense of protection.

    The number of women who have been raped and murdered by repeat offenders demonstrates that the traditional process of gaol, parole followed by just let them do it again, isn’t enough.

  162. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 6, 2013 1:03 pm

    “You’ve been had, but now you reckon we should give abbott all the time in the world to sort it, something you refused to give labor who were working with indonesia.

    Labor had 6 years to do something after abolishing a successful policy.

    Based on the numbers of boat people we got in July it means we were getting 50,000 boat people/year and it was rapidly increasing. Worse is that most of these people were economic immigrants not people fleeing persecution.

    But perhaps i am just being selfish. Perhaps we should let anybody in who wants to come.

  163. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 6, 2013 1:04 pm

    So now you are in the business of re-interpreting what abbott & co have said, when what he said was patently clear “we will stop the boats from day one”

    http://www.clairsquared.com/2013/07/stop-boats-phony-tony-abbotts-untruths.html

    But the reality is Tony needs to win votes, not through actual policy but through fear mongering tactics. Leaving people up in arms about the financial stress this causes on the country and the potential jobs this takes away from Australians. The reality is, expired visa illegal immigrants are the ones taking these jobs, so please lets get the facts straight.

    Stopping the boats is not going to plan:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-30/mungo-tony-abbott-indonesia/4988030

    …About the best Abbott can hope for is that the slowdown in arrivals that has been underway since Yudhoyono and Kevin Rudd put the Bali process in place — the process which Indonesia still regards as the basis for all future negotiations on the issue – continues to the point where the boats cease to be a political problem and Abbott can quietly abandon the policies which Indonesia finds unacceptable.

    …Still more importantly, he will have to pray that the public and the media react to his policies of concealment, silence and obfuscation with the same acquiescence he expects from his ministers. For the moment at least, he is determined to press ahead with the mushroom policy: keep them in the dark and feed them bullshit.

  164. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 6, 2013 1:12 pm

    But perhaps i am just being selfish. Perhaps we should let anybody in who wants to come.

    We already do, the 10’s of thousands, perhaps 100,000 of visa overstayers who continue on here without any hysterical shrieking and fearmongering by politicians or big business.

    The asylum seeker ‘problem’ is the biggest ‘look over there’ furphy put upon the australian people. While they wet their pants over a few miserable sods who’ve come from the world’s hellholes, we forget all about the many who are here right under our noses and quietly welcomed by government and business.

  165. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 6, 2013 1:19 pm

    “the 10′s of thousands, perhaps 100,000 of visa overstayers who continue on here without any hysterical shrieking and fearmongering by politicians or big business.

    That is actually the biggest “look over there.” We don’t have the resources to hunt down visa overstayers. Anyway they will eventually leave.

    The fact is we have 30 million refugees who want to come here and another 1 billion economic immigrants who want to come here.

    Should we let anyone who wants to come, in???

  166. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 6, 2013 1:45 pm

    That is actually the biggest “look over there.” We don’t have the resources to hunt down visa overstayers. Anyway they will eventually leave.

    We don’t have the resources already to waste on the jailing of asylum seekers off shore, creating military/AFP operations on foreign soil, buying indo fishing boats etc. Do you know how much that costs the taxpayer?

    The fact is we have 30 million refugees who want to come here and another 1 billion economic immigrants who want to come here.

    Where do you get those inflated numbers from?

    http://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/r/stat-int.php

    Do you know how many refugees there are worldwide due to wars that we took place in? Perhaps we shouldn’t rush into wars if we don’t want to accept our responsibility in the peoples displaced as a result of our activities.

    The visa overstayers are all illegal economic immigrants and they don’t go home.

    https://griffithreview.com/edition-10-family-politics/time-for-an-amnesty/all-pages

  167. TB Queensland permalink
    October 6, 2013 2:14 pm

    I see KL has been busy … I promised a reply to, sb … see below

    “why you get all shrill and accusatory is beyond me”
    Because you made a really silly argument – that it is hypocritical for Abbott and Morrison to have called out out the ALP for re-igniting the boat-people trade and to blame them for the arrival of thousands of boats. I just don’t get it. Clearly we have not had time to assess the effectiveness of their policies and they always said it would take some time for their policies to work.

    “I DO NOT SEE ASYLUM SEEKERS OR REFUGEES AS A THREAT TO AUSTRALIA!”

    No need to shout – makes you look like you are grandstanding. And that is not a simple question. In fact is the type of insulting BS question replete with overtones of smug moral self-righteousness and no awareness of the complexity of the issue.

    Sticks and stones again … BTW I’m agnostic, I leave self-righteousness for the bileevers … of all/any deities. … anyhoo, let’s move on
    I have repeatedly said here that we can and should take in many more refugees. However, stopping the people-smuggling trade is important. Stopping it stops deaths. It

    I see, KL, has been busy .. 😉

    I promised a reply to, sb …

    “why you get all shrill and accusatory is beyond me”
    Because you made a really silly argument – that it is hypocritical for Abbott and Morrison to have called out out the ALP for re-igniting the boat-people trade and to blame them for the arrival of thousands of boats. I just don’t get it. Clearly we have not had time to assess the effectiveness of their policies and they always said it would take some time for their policies to work.

    “I DO NOT SEE ASYLUM SEEKERS OR REFUGEES AS A THREAT TO AUSTRALIA!”

    No need to shout – makes you look like you are grandstanding. And that is not a simple question. In fact is the type of insulting BS question replete with overtones of smug moral self-righteousness and no awareness of the complexity of the issue.

    Sticks and stones again … BTW I’m agnostic, I leave self-righteousness for the bileevers … of all/any deities. … anyhoo, let’s move on …

    I have repeatedly said here that we can and should take in many more refugees. However, stopping the people-smuggling trade is important. Stopping it stops deaths. It enables more resources to be put into accommodating genuine refugees. It enables easier vetting and weeding out of economic migrants and trouble-makers.

    I agree – but your paragraph below is the answer. Putting resources into “stopping the boats” via military intervention is extremely expensive, aggressive and slow. And obviously has our nearest neighbour, Indonesia, more than a little alarmed.
    Setting up assessment centres in other countries (with permission of course) would be far more cost effective and would deprive the people smugglers of clients (actually … extending, eggs, idea of a refurbished cruise ship or two as assessment centres would be worth a consideration) … if people attempt to take the boat trip themselves and they have been assessed as unsuitable, or by-passed the assessment centres, they will already know they will simply be deported.

    The problem we have at the moment is a mindset of stop the boats … one that was introduced by Howard and stupidly followed by the ALP and now the new government.
    My criticism of Abbott is not that he didn’t stop the boats immediately – your assumption not my words BTW – but the whole concept of stopping boats. And buying the boats???
    Refugees need assistance not more aggressive action by rich Western countries and callous governments.

    The misinformation about refugees in this country (and the sheer misunderstanding by intelligent people is amazing) and changing our current national position from one of open aggression to acceptance, under our control, will be difficult.

    What we need to do is to actually provide decent services with refugees who do come here to better integrate them into society. We should only take refugees to the extent that we are prepared to do that. It is no good landing them here and leaving them to rot.

    I certainly agree with that … I’ve worked in third world countries as a training manager and a training consultant and the know the difficulties for people with a lack of basic education and the problems learning other skills … this does not mean that people cannot be trained and become contributing members to society.

    This is the most difficult area and where the money should be spent – on education, training and development … not on covert/overt military campaigns against women and children.

    And it is not just the economic cost. People in certain suburbs do not like the fact that they can’t walk the streets at night anymore. Or that we even need to have a Middle-Eastern Crime Squad.

    I can’t comment on that as I haven’t had much experience with ethnic groups in my own area apart from a couple of dramas with Islander gangs and threats made to one of my family (she was a HS teacher at the time). But as I’ve said before I did live in PNG for just over a year … where my 16yo was kidnapped at gunpoint … so I understand fear in these circumstances … and I certainly wouldn’t visit the Gold Coast these days (not that we ever have done, except for business).

    My understanding is the upsurge in bikie gangs is attributed to middle eastern young men too.

    Probably gets back to the education, training and development programs AND work available.

    We have a continent to work with not a tiny EU or Middle Eastern country.

    If we don’t get the integration right then we have to slow down with groups that are particularly hard to integrate.

    I understand that argument too … but refugees generally don’t have much choice about timing.

    The despots are now being challenged by ordinary people who just want a fair go … like we should give 90% of refugees …

    I have never been an advocate for multiculturalism … I’m Australian not – English Australian, my best mate insists he is an Australian – not a German Australian, my muslim neighbour insists he is an Australian – not a Bosnian Australian. Personal perception is important.

    I’m a firm believer in integration … maybe a national service program for high school grads would help … (not necessarily military but working on the land together, eco-projects, fire fighting etc.) … for 18 months and earning assistance with trade or degree expenses, while experiencing what “work” is …

    Newcomers need to learn that freedom of speech is non-negotiable and they need to understand that their religion is not going to be respected by everybody else. Also, it would be a big mistake to take in LTTE supporters or Hamas supporters or supporters of any other terrorist group.

    Agree. And they must be told that if they come to OUR country they conform to our standards not WE to theirs! We will never be a Muslim state just as we are not (supposed to be) a Christian state … Egypt is a lesson for democracy!

    And don’t even talk to me about our UN obligations. The UN is a contemptible joke. I strongly believe that we should be governed by our own laws and that were they conflict with a treaty or international obligation they should prevail.

    Beware nationalism … it breeds wars, racial and religious hatred and refugees … and while the UN has made some awful mistakes it has done a lot of good … think what it would be like without it?

    I have it on very good authority from ADF staff, who were deployed to the UN, that they are a very wasteful organisation … a bit like most governments I know.

    If Australia wants to be a member of the UN as a global citizen (and I believe it does)… then it must be a responsible one …

    After all, most of us prefer ourselves, our children and their children, to develop, thrive and live in a prosperous and richly diverse society rather than simply struggle through each day in fear and dread just to survive in an economy designed only for the rich and powerful.

  168. TB Queensland permalink
    October 6, 2013 2:16 pm

    Sorry about the double up … I actually used Word … so I wouldn’t lose it here … first part is obviously a repeat somehow …

  169. TB Queensland permalink
    October 6, 2013 2:23 pm

    Or he’s a novel idea … and at least its more positive (and economical) than employing the RAN …

    http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/national/lib-dem-proposes-asylum-seeker-tariff/story-e6frfku9-1226733695607

  170. TB Queensland permalink
    October 6, 2013 2:29 pm

    People may not know this but £10 Poms like my parents had conditions on their arrival here …

    … they had to live and work in Australia for two years … if they went back to the UK earlier they had to repay the fares to get here (in our case ship – two adults and two kids) … they needed a job and a sponsor (often but not always the same person).

    BUT, we weren’t refugees …

  171. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 6, 2013 2:36 pm

    BUT, we weren’t refugees

    Neither are most of the people who come by boat.

    Under John Howard we used to take refugees from UNHCR camps. Thanks to your vote in 2007 we only take people with $10,000. Refugees cannot get in.

  172. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 6, 2013 3:06 pm

    The fact is we have 30 million refugees who want to come here and another 1 billion economic immigrants who want to come here.

    Still no answer to where those ‘facts’ come from? I have read about 15.2 million worldwide refugees, nowhere near the numbers you are spruiking and most of them aren’t targeting australia as the place they want to get to.

    Neither are most of the people who come by boat.

    actually, not true, 90% of boat people are found to be genuine refugees and re-settled in oz. The great majority of those found to be non-genuine are those who seek asylum after arriving by plane, those are the economic refugees.

    http://www.ajustaustralia.com/info/mythsfacts.php [my bold]

    The myth that asylum seekers take places away from refugees who are resettled from overseas does have some basis in truth. However, this is not because asylum seekers are trying to rort the system or “jump the queue” – they have a right to seek asylum and Australia has a legal and moral obligation to process their claims. Rather, it is the direct result of Australian Government policy.
    Australia’s refugee program has two components – the onshore component, for people who or people who apply for refugee status after arriving in Australia; and the offshore component, under which Australia resettles recognised refugees and other people in need of protection and assistance. The onshore and offshore components are numerically linked, which means that every time an onshore applicant is granted a Protection Visa, a place is deducted from the offshore program.

    The linking policy blurs the distinction between Australia’s legal obligations as a signatory to the Refugee Convention (addressed through the onshore component) and our voluntary contribution to the sharing of international responsibility for refugees for whom no other durable solution is available (addressed through the offshore component). The perception that there is a “queue” which onshore applicants are trying to evade is actually created by a policy choice which could easily be changed. No other country in the world links its onshore and offshore programs in this way.

  173. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 6, 2013 3:20 pm

    People may not know this but £10 Poms like my parents had conditions on their arrival here …

    I know it TB, my best friend was one of them. Her family came to oz as 10 pound poms and had to live in a ‘refugee camp’ otherwise known as a migrant hostel in Elizabeth SA.

    Salisbury Hostel was the same as this one:

    From the 1950s until the 1970s Smithfield Migrant Hostel was home to many migrants. Situated on Section 3163, in the Hundred of Munno Para, the hostel accommodated up to 300 people at one time. Accommodation was provided free of charge until the breadwinner of the family found work and then there would be a charge. After twelve months a special application was required if the family wished to stay on…[wiki]

    A family of 10 [big catholics they were] lived in a three bedroom house, da worked at holden’s elizabeth and ma at david jones for many years until finally at retirement age they had saved enough [after 8 kids were all working] to buy a house.

  174. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 6, 2013 3:25 pm

    “I have read about 15.2 million worldwide refugees, nowhere near the numbers you are spruiking

    OK i was out by a factor of two. There are 15 million refugees who want to come here.

    “actually, not true, 90% of boat people are found to be genuine refugees and re-settled in oz

    Bob Carr now calls them economic refugees.

  175. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 6, 2013 3:38 pm

    Bob Carr now calls them economic refugees.

    Stop Inventing Facts About Asylum Seekers:
    https://www.newmatilda.com/2013/07/10/stop-inventing-facts-about-asylum-seekers

    …Carr’s comments reveal a breathtaking capacity to ignore evidence and sideline truth for the sake of short term political gain…

    …In 2011-2012, 91 per cent of people arriving in Australia by boat were assessed (pdf) as being genuine refugees fleeing legitimate fears of serious human rights violations.

    Individual claims for protection are assessed by Departmental staff and decisions can be reviewed by the Refugee Review Tribunal. Tribunal Members are independent, impartial and specialised decision-makers, carefully selected and employed by the same Government now lamenting their failure to reject more claims.

    As part of its “no advantage” principle, until last week the Government refused to assess the claims of anyone arriving by boat since August 2012. This begs the question, what evidence is Carr basing his statements about boat arrivals on?

    bob carr was doing an abbott.

  176. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 6, 2013 3:43 pm

    OK lets just say you are right. Based on recent figures we are getting 50,000 boat people/year. It could easily double.

    Do you think we should take everyone who comes by boat??

  177. egg permalink
    October 6, 2013 3:45 pm

    If these illegal guest workers could speak fluent English they would have a better chance of being considered as citizens.

    Bob Carr is correct, they are in fact economic refugees and not illegal guest workers. From what I understand none of the boat people, going back over the past five years, have ever got work.

    So they can’t speak the native tongue and have no commercial skills is a disaster waiting to happen.

  178. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 6, 2013 3:57 pm

    egg

    Under Howard we used to take refugees from UNHCR camps. I doubt they could speak English. Yet we had no trouble.

    Now we are getting 50,000/year and if Abbott does not put his foot down it will double.

    The US has 15 million Mexicans. Not one of them is a refugee. they crossed the border because they did not want to live in a mexican slum.

    It is a difficult issue. We get the chance to play God with the lives of desperate people.

  179. egg permalink
    October 6, 2013 4:07 pm

    Fair enough, they are genuine refugees and in small numbers they can make a life here. Their children and grandchildren will speak Australian and immediately recognised as locals, with all the advantages attached.

    Abbott will stop the illegal guest workers, he is the political son of Howard.

  180. TB Queensland permalink
    October 6, 2013 4:34 pm

    Apart from numbers games … I still get the impression that we tend to agree more than disagree … in one are particularly …

    It really is a bastard of a problem …

    … the issue – as I see it …

    … we can try and seek solutions using compassion, or employ methods similar to those that asylum seekers/refugees are fleeing … ie choose the fire or the frying pan …

  181. egg permalink
    October 6, 2013 5:26 pm

    The economic refugees are fleeing poverty and hoping for a better life here. We encourage English speaking people because they assimilate more easily into mainstream society and avoids a ghetto mentality.

    The football stadium full of illegal guest workers waiting in Indonesia should be quickly processed, with families sent to Tasmania and single men to Glitter City (Simpson Desert) to learn English and the Australian way.

    I’m not being flippant, this would be a big financial saving for the taxpayers and should slow the number of hopefuls flowing through Indonesia with Australia in mind.

  182. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 6, 2013 5:37 pm

    Do you think we should take everyone who comes by boat??

    Since 90% are genuine – yes we most certainly should. The ones who don’t pass security checks shouldn’t be allowed in [? the other 5%].
    I think they should be allowed to live in the community once health checks are performed and allowed the dignity of working and providing for family.

    So they can’t speak the native tongue and have no commercial skills is a disaster waiting to happen.

    I disagree, I think the services industry is a field that asylum seekers can excel, they don’t need to be highly trained and I think it’s a boom industry. Time poor families who want to relax on week-ends and after work rather than perform house cleaning & yard work would be a stable clientèle [if only they could get over the harm caused by politicising the issue, a fear of AS as criminals who would rip them off or kill them!].

    Already a couple in existence

    cleaning;

    http://www.asrc.org.au/programs/empowerment/cleaning-service/

    catering:

    http://www.catering.asrc.org.au/

    Their children and grandchildren will speak Australian and immediately recognised as locals, with all the advantages attached.

    Exactly, that’s how all migrants start out and we have a successful history of european migration followed by asian migration and those original vietnamese ‘boat people’ are now respected citizens. I remember when I was young, people calling the greeks and italians ‘wogs’ and ‘spicks’ and demonising them for the way they lived.
    Australians have been so isolated from other nationalities that anyone different is somehow threatening, like a nation of backward redneck hillbilly’s and that ignorance and xenophobia has been deliberately exploited by shameless politicians and the fundy religious who always seem to be inciting hysteria and wanting a war with one group or another.

  183. egg permalink
    October 6, 2013 5:49 pm

    Humans are naturally prejudiced, its part of our makeup for survival, but in the 21st century we may minimise the difference through the development of a greater middle class and intermarriage. This is very good for the gene pool.

  184. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 6, 2013 5:56 pm

    The economic refugees are fleeing poverty and hoping for a better life here.

    That’s why all migrants have traditionally come here, why demonise the genuine asylum seekers who come by boat when plane loads of them come here and instantly claim asylum?

    We encourage English speaking people because they assimilate more easily into mainstream society and avoids a ghetto mentality.

    We encourage white, english speaking people because we still have a ‘white australia policy’ mentality. We need to grow up and show some maturity as a nation.

    Cities are one giant ghetto. Perhaps the ghetto mentality is a survival mechanism, comes from being shunned and demonised by ignorant, racist australians, people who’ve been taught to hate them by self serving politicians. There has been a lack of compassion and leadership shown all around, how about appealing to decency and compassion rather than fear and xenophobia?

    As has been said before the AS debate is a proxy debate, to shovel the anger at AS rather than where it belongs, at governments for a failure to deliver outcomes for citizens.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-01/green-refugees/4857174

    …In outer western Sydney, one in seven people aged 15 to 24 is looking for work. In Melbourne’s outer west the figure is one in five.

    Tonight across the country, one in 200 Australians will be homeless, 105,237 people in total.

    Median rents in Sydney, the country’s least affordable city are $500 a week, making it the third most expensive city in the world in which to find a home.

    Fold in diminished access on the outer fringes to high quality education, the lifestyle hampering consequences of serially underfunded infrastructure, the poor access to healthcare services that the affluent take for granted, the long congested freeway jams to insecure work from highly leveraged homes … a general sense of besieged otherness in our outer suburbs, a quiet, nameless foreboding that stems from entirely reasonable but slightly nebulous insecurities and actual comparative disadvantage.

  185. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 6, 2013 6:21 pm

    Humans are naturally prejudiced, its part of our makeup for survival,

    make that somehumans eg tribalistic, fearful, conservatives.

    Study: Conservatives have larger “fear center”:

    http://www.salon.com/2010/12/29/conservative_brains/

    Specifically, the research shows that people with conservative tendencies have a larger amygdala and a smaller anterior cingulate than other people.
    The amygdala — typically thought of as the “primitive brain” — is responsible for reflexive impulses, like fear. The anterior cingulate is thought to be responsible for courage and optimism. This one-two punch could be responsible for many of the anecdotal claims that conservatives “think differently” from others.

    They really are “pantzwetting, knuckle draggers”!
    That’s why they shun research and academics as ‘elitist intellectuals’ and why they prefer their ‘gut’ feelings based on ignorance and phobia, they are ruled by emotion rather than rational thought.

  186. egg permalink
    October 6, 2013 7:02 pm

    Lol Kitty

    What about this for a novel idea?

    ‘LIBERAL Democratic Senator David Leyonhjelm has proposed a radical plan to charge asylum-seekers $50,000 to come to Australia.’

    Oz

  187. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 6, 2013 7:03 pm

    That’s why all migrants have traditionally come here, why demonise the genuine asylum seekers who come by boat when plane loads of them come here and instantly claim asylum?

    I have answered the second part of that question a million times yet you still bring it up. Do you know what you say is true?? I have met many of these so called asylum seekers who fly in. Education is a big money maker for Australia. Wealthy people send their kids to Australia to get a degree at University. After getting their degree they claim asylum because they do not want to go home.

    Do you have any figures on people who claim asylum at Mascot Airport??

  188. TB Queensland permalink
    October 6, 2013 8:24 pm

    After the fleet and fireworks in Sydney on Saturday, the 29-year-old Prince made his first visit to WA accompanied by Prime Minister Tony Abbott, with his day taken up mostly with a visit to the home of the SAS at the Campbell Barracks in the coastal suburb of Swanbourne.

    The PM really is a “wannabe” … if he keeps this shite up he’ll lose a lot of the ADF votes …

  189. TB Queensland permalink
    October 6, 2013 8:54 pm

    Why after the election … why not during or before?

    Nothing is new and nothing changes …

    God – fearing (or is it faring?) my arse … these people are cheats, liars, deceitful and thieves … a weekly confession to cleanse the soul (of whom?) .. and then out the next week to do it all again …

    Centuries of making money out of society is sticky business …

    The only consolation is that they don’t blow shit up like their biggest rivals who believe in the same God – apparently …

    http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/national/wedding-travel-costs-were-valid-turnbull/story-e6frfku9-1226733657698

    But minister Malcolm Turnbull says his colleagues would have been “absolutely satisfied” they were doing the right thing when claiming the expenses.

    However he conceded there was a degree of ambiguity in the rules.

    Bunch of fkn HYPOCRITES …

    Something about turning over moneylenders tables springs to mind …

    Did organised religion hijack honesty, truth and fair dealing … to justify greed? You betcha …

  190. TB Queensland permalink
    October 7, 2013 10:38 am

    And its not a political issue really it depends on the person’s values and standards …

    John Hewson:

    “I don’t believe in unlimited access to the public purse,” Dr Hewson has told Fairfax media.

    He said any newly elected prime minister must set clear standards for his team as the “fish rots from the head”.

    Coalition MPs “can’t run on the line that [they] want to control government expenditure” and at the same time waste taxpayers’ money on their personal lives.

    Peter Reith: (my son is family why can’t he use my credit card)*

    But former Howard government minister Peter Reith has described the wedding expenses scandals as “petty” and argued that politicians should be entitled to unlimited travel.

    “I think it’s ridiculous putting limits on where ministers can go,” he’s told Fairfax.

    http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/national/hewson-warns-coalition-on-wedding-claims/story-e6frfku9-1226733924085

    While Peter Reith was a Minister:

    “I did give the card to my son, and I should not have done so,” Reith admitted. … Four days of pressure resulted in Peter Reith grudgingly agreeing to pay …

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/oct/30/worlddispatch.patrickbarkham

    Well we now know where, Abbott & The Acolytes, stand …

  191. TB Queensland permalink
    October 7, 2013 12:05 pm

    Are we seeing the end of Über Kapitalism based upon rampant (manipulated?) consumerism?

    Is a mix of command and market economy really the best way to enjoy a fulfilled and sustainable life and future for our families?

    Alan Kohler writes about changes in our economy … food for thought …

    But now, with economic growth vexingly dismal, it’s the savers who must be restrained, or rather encouraged to spend and speculate. At 10 per cent, the savings rate is now too high to sustain an economy that relies for its growth on consumption and gambling …

    … In the most recent decision to leave it there, the governor celebrates the evidence of a “shift in savers’ behaviour” that he is engineering through the suppression of their incomes.

    … Because the other big mover in the consumer sentiment hit parade in the past few years has been Fear of Unemployment. The unemployment expectations chart is back to where it was in 2001: it rose 50 per cent in 2011 and stayed there.

    … Automation and digitisation is what I have in mind. Trains now operate without train drivers, cranes without crane operators, assembly lines without assemblers, newspapers without reporters, and cars, I read, can speed along highways with no one behind the wheel.

    http://www.businessspectator.com.au/article/2013/10/7/reserve-bank-australia/new-age-speculation?utm_source=exact&utm_medium=email&utm_content=446280&utm_campaign=kgb&modapt=

    We are on the cusp of a new age … how will The Robber Barons retain control of it this time?

    It was originally kicking out challengers from the cave … then robbing them from castles … controlling wages and conditions … now they control democracy and the markets … so what will they control next? And HOW?

    Fear is such a short term motivator … and eventually comes back to bite you on the bum …

  192. TB Queensland permalink
    October 7, 2013 12:53 pm

    This should be interesting … and a waste of taxpayers money … AWB payback? With the same results?

    http://www.news.com.au/national-news/kevin-rudd-may-face-inquiry-into-botched-home-insulation-scheme/story-fncynjr2-1226733816800

  193. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 7, 2013 2:20 pm

    How many other jobs can have the employer or taxpaying public pay for you to attend social occasions with your friends?
    Can business claim for parties, weddings and sports events where they talk work with friends?

    How can politicians possibly even justify getting paid to attend personal, social events. They may have been invited but theat doesn’t make it work just because their mates in the same business are also attending.

    That would be like me going interstate for a friend’s wedding and then claiming it as an educational expense because I discussed work with others of a common occupation.

    Like I said, if you have the entitlement mentality, you can always see everything you do as work related, there is a complete overlooking of the lines between work and personal. Basically pollies are saying that they are never off duty, never have any personal time. Why then can’t I contact my local or any MP directly, at his home on week-ends or A/hours?

    That is why I have the same problem with abbott claiming travel allowances, comcar and plane trips for attending his personal, sporting events, it is personal not work related, he is paid to run the country not run, jump and swim. Also charity is something you donate, if you are claiming for it, you are being paid, it is not charity or volunteerism if you are being paid for it.

    Do you have any figures on people who claim asylum at Mascot Airport??

    No, I’ve seen no breakdowns for mascot or any other airport, only the figures of asylum seekers who come by plane with and without valid ID who then claim asylum. What difference does when they claim asylum make, on arrival or when their visa runs out? If anything the fact that plane arrivals claiming when their visa runs out, proves the point that they are the non-genuine asylum seekers and the boat arrivals genuine – both in method of arrival and % found to be genuine.

  194. October 7, 2013 2:40 pm

    Stop teh Boats!
    Herd the goats.
    Collect some Votes.
    Aaaaaargh. Boat-people.
    Build some Moats.

  195. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 7, 2013 2:41 pm

    AWB payback? With the same results?

    payback for what? no-one has ever been charged with anything, the AWB cowboys and government ministers were allowed to get away with bribery and corruption at the highest level. There has never been accountability or punishment. I would like to see much more rigorous oversight of white collar crime in this country. For some reason white collar criminals are allowed to get away with little scrutiny and no punishment for essentially doing the same crimes as common street criminals who are sent away for years [justice is not fair or equally applied if wealth & power can buy freedom from jail].

  196. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 7, 2013 2:51 pm

    I can’t believe the ABC has the gall to have the discredited peter reith [of the $50,000 phone card affair] on air defending pollies entitlement claims and saying they should have unlimited taxpayer funding. Jobs and payment for friends of ABC mark scott, reithy still at the trough!
    ABC must be counting on the short memories or complete apathy of the public.

  197. October 7, 2013 2:59 pm

    nice to see ya back armchair 🙂
    .
    the trough-snouting continues because
    the rich make teh-Law,
    .
    and teh-Law grinds the poor
    .
    from what l`ve noticed, the so-called `justice` system, is really just a lawyer enrichment program, which has nothing to do with `justice`

  198. egg permalink
    October 7, 2013 4:17 pm

    ‘We are on the cusp of a new age … how will The Robber Barons retain control of it this time?

    Diversification and investment, a free market offers the greatest benefit for a burgeoning middle class. Agribusiness for food security and hyperloop mass transport look good to go, once they work out a few snags.

  199. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 7, 2013 5:32 pm

    Diversification and investment, a free market offers the greatest benefit gap between a burgeoning bludgeoned middle/lower class and the wealthy few.

    Hello 730 *waves* always good to see you 🙂

  200. egg permalink
    October 7, 2013 5:44 pm

    The free market is more efficient than the command model.

  201. October 7, 2013 6:41 pm

    The US is about to take a gigantic turd on the ‘free market’ on Oct 17.

    The same ideologues who claim a mandate for Abbott here are doing great contortions to ignore that principle & lay the blame for the Tea Party’s grandstanding at the feet of Obamacare. [I’m looking at you, again, Bolt]

  202. October 7, 2013 7:04 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘The free market is more efficient than’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
    Bullshit. Nothing.
    The so-called free market continually demands `gifts` and `welfare` in a multitude of forms, from tax-breaks and loop-holes that the rest of society is denied, thru to bail-outs and welfare for failed companies and industry`s.
    #ford #gm #toyota

  203. egg permalink
    October 7, 2013 7:35 pm

    Give me one example of where the command model has worked?

  204. TB Queensland permalink
    October 7, 2013 7:54 pm

    payback for what?

    Simply embarrassing the Liberal government for breaking international law, KL …

    … the AWB Commission was a farce … this is a retaliation from the Abbott lot for even thinking about taking the Howard lot to task!

    The issues with deaths and damage were purely state based not Federal (even if Peter Garret is a Fuckiwit™ on and off the stage) … in this case, WH&S laws (OH&S if you prefer)are state based not Federal … the problems were all to do with the aluminium “batts”, poor supervision, lack of training and state government licensing …

    Blaming the Federal government for business failure is farcical … especially when they were supported financially by that same government … if there is a duty of care it is fragile to say the least …

    Common Law in H&S (now incorporated in state law) is based upon duty of care in four prime areas:

    1. Safe workplace and access to it

    2. Safe plant, equipment and material

    3. Safe methods and process

    4. Proper training and supervision

    These are responsibilities of the EMPLOYER and administered by STATE and TERRITORY government departments …

    Apply these basic principles and it becomes a wasted, costly witch hunt …

    To put it in a macabre perspective there were 124 workplace deaths in 2009/10 … no Federal enquiry into the other 120!

    Just an ideological witch hunt …

  205. TB Queensland permalink
    October 7, 2013 7:57 pm

    Give me one example of where the command model has worked?

    China …

    … now laughing at the USA in its death throe contortions … and Greece and France and the UK and ………………………………

    Capitalism works … but not in its greedy bastardised form!

    The Empire is gorging itself from within …

  206. October 7, 2013 8:06 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Give me one example of where the command model has worked?’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    #CanYouSayChina
    .
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘command model’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
    l`m not sure what `command-model` means,
    l am just assuming it is not **Gordon-Gecko-Rabid-Teabag-Kannable-Kapitalisum** (Channeling-Lipton)

  207. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 7, 2013 8:34 pm

    abbott is set to sign the TPP trade agreement that gillard refused, the one where the internet will be criminalised and coal seam fracking forced upon people. The rest we don’t even know about, it has been kept highly secret because they know we’d be against it.

    Abbott set to sign highly secretive TPP agreement this month

    http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/business/abbott-set-to-sign-secretive-tpp-agreement-this-month/

    Of course, we cannot know the exact effects of the TPP, as the negotiations over the past few years have been held in secret. However, two leaked chapters – out of the 26 or more under negotiation – have caused more than their fair share of concern.

    …The TPP seeks, among other things, to rewrite the global rules on intellectual property enforcement that would give Big Media new powers to lock users out of our own content and services, provide new liabilities that might force ISPs to police our online activity, and give giant media companies even greater powers to shut down websites and remove content at will. It also encourages ISPs to block accused infringers’ Internet access, and could force ISPs to hand over our private information to big media conglomerates without appropriate privacy safeguards. You can see a more complete list of new restrictions below, but it appears that the TPP would turn all Internet users into suspected copyright criminals. In fact it appears to criminalize content sharing in general…

    The internet will be corporatised and we will be subject to the demands of predatory business practice, abbott will happily sign away the small freedoms that we currently have.

  208. egg permalink
    October 7, 2013 8:37 pm

    The command model.

    ‘An economy where supply and price are regulated by the government rather than market forces. Government planners decide which goods and services are produced and how they are distributed. The former Soviet Union was an example of a command economy.’

    China was a command economy, but they have clearly moved in a different direction.

  209. TB Queensland permalink
    October 7, 2013 8:53 pm

    egg, I know the two models … what we need is a hybrid “essentials and market free” model … the “market” model today is manipulated and massaged in favour of The Robber Barons … the ordinary are still paying for the folly of rich risk …

    China is still a command economy with some free enterprise … they are treading warily … and why not after the West’s economical debacles over the last century?

  210. TB Queensland permalink
    October 7, 2013 9:03 pm

    abbott is set to sign the TPP trade agreement that gillard refused

    That is frightening stuff, KL!!!

    And as one commenter states – treasonous!

    What have the people of Australia unleashed?

    Where is the ALP in all this? In fact the silence is deafening since the election …

  211. October 7, 2013 9:17 pm

    **TPP** armchair
    hold off on the pantswetting, l just don`t see how Mr-Rabbit can sign-away `states` rights and obligations, something doesn`t seem correct with that post

  212. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 7, 2013 9:52 pm

    http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/abbott-pushes-for-asian-free-trade-deals-20131007-2v41z.html

    …Free trade has been the focus of Prime Minister Tony Abbott’s first full day of meetings with regional leaders in Bali.

    Mr Abbott says his government is confident the ambitious 12-nation regional deal known as the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) can be progressed at this week’s APEC summit despite the absence of its chief advocate, US President Barack Obama…

    …Mr Abbott says it would be great if that trip could be “consummated” with a finalised FTA, although he admits that’s probably too optimistic.

    But he’s still pushing for a swift conclusion to the negotiations, which began in 2005 and have dragged on through nineteen rounds of talks…

  213. egg permalink
    October 7, 2013 10:05 pm

    China has the hybrid, its the middle way, a free market without democracy. There are no robber barons in China, but there is quite a bit of corruption and when discovered they are summarily executed.

  214. October 7, 2013 10:23 pm

    Basic Maths.
    This
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘no robber barons in China’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    plus this
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘but there is quite a bit of corruption’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
    equals bullshit.
    .
    China need not do anything to continue being successful.
    Our stupid western governments gave it all away.

  215. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 7, 2013 10:28 pm

    from the smh link above:

    …The TPP was also a focus of Mr Abbott’s meeting his with Canadian counterpart Stephen Harper.

    While the conservative leaders share a lot in common, they do differ on Sri Lanka. Mr Harper confirmed on Monday he will not attend the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting (CHOGM) in Colombo next month due to ongoing human rights concerns.

    Mr Harper said that when Sri Lanka was selected as host he’d hoped it would seize the opportunity to improve human rights conditions and take steps towards reconciliation, following the bloody 2009 end to the country’s long-running civil war against Tamil separatists.

    “Unfortunately, this has not been the case,” Mr Harper said. “Canada is deeply concerned about the situation in Sri Lanka.”

    Mr Abbott said Mr Harper’s decision was a matter for him.

    “But certainly I intend to attend CHOGM and will do my best to make a constructive contribution to the deliberations there,” he said.

    Doesn’t Australia send sri lankan boat people seeking asylum back again soon after arrival?

    How quickly the daggy dad has turned into the control freak dad who keeps his kids locked in the basement where no communications are allowed with the outside world.

    There are no robber barons in China, but there is quite a bit of corruption and when discovered they are summarily executed.

    Our robber barons have the bribery and corruption [here and abroad] but there are no plans to ever look for it let alone discover anything. No point looking if you refuse to make anyone accountable. The corporations run the show not our grovelling government.

  216. October 7, 2013 10:31 pm

    armchair
    Mr-Rabbit may desire fcuking us more, with another free trade fetish, but anything `business` is regulated by the states, which will have to agree to enact, provided Mr-Rabbit can get things past the pups in the senate.**GO-WATERMELON**

  217. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 7, 2013 10:31 pm

    China need not do anything to continue being successful.”

    Depends what “being successful” means. I have met lots of students from China. Not one of them wants to go home. They come here on student visas and then try anyway possible to stay permanently in Australia. Even lying on their asylum seeker application forms that they are in danger if they fly home. A country that everyone leaves if they can is not a successful country.

    In contrast Chinese students from Hong Kong fly home. Being a former British colony there is a freedom not found in mainland China.

  218. October 7, 2013 10:42 pm

    history repeats
    .
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Mr Harper said that when Sri Lanka was selected as host he’d hoped it would seize the opportunity to improve human rights’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
    .
    canadian teabag harper is regurgitating a often used line and `hope` which always fails, `human-rights` were meant to improve coz of all da free-trade for the citizens of india, china, bangledesh, vietnam, cambodia, and not merely entrench slave and child labor,
    .
    even back in the 1930s, hitler was given the olympics of appeasement in 1936,
    .
    that went well

  219. October 7, 2013 10:48 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘I have met lots of students from China. Not one of them wants to go home.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
    .
    Depends what ‘lots of students from China’ means. Gotta number.?

  220. egg permalink
    October 8, 2013 8:27 am

    Our supreme leader on the FTA.

    “The (Chinese) president made it clear to me how much foreign investment China hopes to make in coming years and I want Australia to get a fair share of that foreign investment because that foreign investment will be good for jobs, it will be good for economic activity,” Abbott said on Monday. “It should be good for government revenues and it will certainly be good for prosperity back home in Australia.”

    Guardian

  221. IPA permalink
    October 8, 2013 9:57 am

    Does Free Trade Exploit the Poor?

  222. TB Queensland permalink
    October 8, 2013 9:57 am

    You couldn’t make this crap up!

    Rather than cut funding – as it promised to do when in Opposition – it is preparing to offer Holden an early Christmas present: an undisclosed amount of money it has not even asked for.

    http://www.news.com.au/national-news/government-prepares-to-give-holden-money-it-hasn8217t-asked-for/story-fncynjr2-1226734377542

    But, but, but the economy is in dire straits … 🙄 🙄

  223. IPA permalink
    October 8, 2013 9:58 am

    THE CASE FOR FREE TRADE (Milton Friedman)

  224. TB Queensland permalink
    October 8, 2013 10:00 am

    There are no robber barons in China,

    Wrong again … egg.

    http://www.forbes.com/china-billionaires/list/

    Its a global disease …

  225. TB Queensland permalink
    October 8, 2013 10:07 am

    … that foreign investment will be good for jobs, it will be good for economic activity,”

    Failed to mention good for profits … nice to see Abbott focussed on jobs and the economy …

    Just on FTA … we have one with the USA, set up by Bush and Howard … ever tried to buy tech products from the states? have a quick “attempt” on Amazon (I don’t even bother with them anymore) … the FTA is a flop – because all the Yanks wanted was to destroy our PBS system and profiteer drugs to the sick and elderly … something I give Howard credit for holing out on …

    The Yanks are slowly but surely eroding the integrity of Australia … now that their country is buggered …

  226. egg permalink
    October 8, 2013 10:08 am

    ‘Wrong again … egg.’

    tru dat.

  227. TB Queensland permalink
    October 8, 2013 10:13 am

    FREE TRADE is an OXYMORON in the application by ordinary folk … that’s why we have retail pricing a twice the cost of overseas and regionalised DVD/BluRay … even books are more expensive here …

    Only one group of people stand to gain … and even then they whimper and moan … hey, Gerry?

  228. egg permalink
    October 8, 2013 10:15 am

    The FTA with the Chinese will be different, infrastructure building and agribusiness is a common goal for both our peoples.

  229. October 8, 2013 10:37 am

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘The Yanks are slowly but surely eroding the integrity of Australia … now that their country is buggered’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
    l am glad somebody else noticed. lt`s lonely down this end of reality.
    .
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘FREE TRADE is an OXYMORON’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
    along with `caring-government` and `military-intelligence`
    .
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘The FTA with the Chinese will be different’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
    ln what way egg.?

  230. egg permalink
    October 8, 2013 10:56 am

    ‘ln what way egg.?’

    This is neo-capitalism and hopefully it will see the end of the boom/ bust mentality of the old kapitalism.

  231. egg permalink
    October 8, 2013 11:34 am

    The Hybrid

    “In 2040, the Chinese economy will reach $123 trillion, or nearly three times the economic output of the entire globe in 2000. China’s per capita income will hit $85,000, more than double the forecast for the European Union, and also much higher than that of India and Japan. In other words, the average Chinese megacity dweller will be living twice as well as the average Frenchman when China goes from a poor country in 2000 to a super-rich country in 2040. Although it will not have overtaken the United States in per capita wealth, according to my forecasts China’s share of global GDP — 40% — will dwarf that of the United States (14%) and the European Union (5%) 30 years from now. This is what economic hegemony will look like by 2040.”

    R W Fogel

  232. egg permalink
    October 8, 2013 11:52 am

    And here’s a little more ….

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/02/opinion/sunday/chinas-economic-empire.html?_r=0

  233. TB Queensland permalink
    October 8, 2013 12:01 pm

    Sounds like an awakening, egg?

    You do that I’ve been saying this for some time now?

    Ideology aside, it should beabout what provides a lifestyle that ALL people can enjoy …

    The Global problem now, is over population … the better we get at diplomacy and medicine the more we get in Mother Nature’s way of keeping us controlled … eg war and disease … our own worst enemies … stop bonking, I say! 😉

  234. TB Queensland permalink
    October 8, 2013 12:01 pm

    Ooops! You do know that I’ve been saying this for some time now?

  235. IPA permalink
    October 8, 2013 12:35 pm

    “stop bonking, I say”

    Unless large numbers of people start volunarily suiciding to alleviate the “problem”, what else do you suggest? Maybe we could have death panels, or follow China’s one-child policy …

    ‘China’s “Family Planning” laws came into effect about three decades ago. They allow families in rural areas to have a second child if their first was a girl. Other couples are granted permission to expand their families for a fee, which can be exorbitant. There are heavy fines for violating the rules.

    Forced abortions are illegal in China, but Stone says Liu’s case highlights the fact that the rules are often enforced at the whim of the local Family Planning offices and the Communist Party officials who staff them. The local officials are reportedly given abortion quotas to meet if they want to see their careers advance.’

  236. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 8, 2013 12:38 pm

    Over population and over production, profits before sustainability.

    Why aren’t governments and business telling people that we need to control population growth and stop plundering our finite environment?

    Enough is enough.

  237. October 8, 2013 12:48 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Sounds like an awakening, egg?’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
    Yes TB, it looks like Dumpty is finally coming to his senses on economics, has he finally realized that China has been business, wealth and nation building, while teh-west has been looting the silverware and fire-sale-ing the homestead for the benefit of our oligarchs.?
    .
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘neo-capitalism’ ‘ ‘ ‘ another name for uber-kapitalism.? l suppose.?
    .
    .
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘The FTA with the Chinese will be different, infrastructure building and agribusiness is a common goal for both our peoples.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
    .
    Let me guess egg,
    AU wants to sell off more assets.? and,
    China wants to be allowed to buy said assets.?

  238. October 8, 2013 12:57 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Over population and over production, profits before sustainability.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
    .
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘telling people that we need to control population growth and stop plundering our finite environment?’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Enough is enough.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
    .
    LOL – SAYS THE BREEDERS !!
    .
    .
    unfortunately too late,
    several years ago a saw a doco/lecture on `sustainable australia`, if we wanted to keep the forrests, waterways, farmland, animals etc and not lose them to `desertification` the calculation was australia should have a population of 13-million, at the time l saw this, the population was 19-million, figure that!

  239. IPA permalink
    October 8, 2013 12:58 pm

    “Young Chinese workers don’t want to work in factories anymore. Terry Gou, founder and Chief executive of Foxconn, China’s largest private employer and one of the manufacturers for the iPhone and iPad, claims that Chinese millennials aspire to more than the low-wage, mundane factory jobs which were held by so many in the previous generation and which spurred China’s decades-long economic boom. . . .This is emblematic of larger shifts in China’s economy. As wages inch upward and the country becomes more prosperous, workers demand more: higher wages, better working conditions, more rewarding jobs.”

  240. October 8, 2013 1:07 pm

    As wages inch upward and the country becomes more prosperous, workers demand more: higher wages, better working conditions, more rewarding jobs.”
    .
    Sorry Osy, this is usual Teabag clap-trap, and you should know better.
    .
    Any of this type of nonsense show up the ignorance of those who espouse it, reality is many more people in the world, of any country, work jobs for need-of-cash to fund their life,
    .
    some lucky few `Love` their job, but the majority don`t `Love`, by just do the job anyway.

  241. egg permalink
    October 8, 2013 1:13 pm

    ‘China wants to be allowed to buy said assets.?’

    China wants to invest everywhere in the world and introduce discipline into the market through subtle manipulation.

    For example, our cotton growers have been shipping most of their cotton to China, but now they are beginning to grow their own, which leaves the Oz growers in need of a replacement. So those properties could easily be snapped up by the Chinese to plant an alternative.

    The other thing is that the Chinese have been buying our cotton and putting it in a big shed, which means they can manipulate the cotton price.

  242. IPA permalink
    October 8, 2013 1:21 pm

    “Sorry Osy, this is usual Teabag clap-trap, and you should know better.”

    No, it is you who deny the obvious and positive consequences of industrialisation. Luckily for us we’ve had a 200 year head start on a lot of them.

  243. October 8, 2013 1:28 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘workers don’t want to work in factories anymore.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
    teabag bullshit
    any job is better than none
    “want“ does not put bread on the table

  244. IPA permalink
    October 8, 2013 1:34 pm

    “any job is better than none”

    Exactly right.That’s why the bleeding hearts who protest against sweat shops are misguided fools.

    However.

    The more factories that open in a given area, the more competition for labour, driving wages up.

    Economics 101.

  245. October 8, 2013 1:38 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘China IS wants to invest everywhere in the world’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
    l noticed they are buying up a lot of mines in africa egg,
    which might bite a chunk out of our glorified-dirt-delivery-service

  246. October 8, 2013 1:49 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘bleeding hearts who protest against sweat shops’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    thank-you for your support in getting rid of reasonable jobs in AU in favor of slavery and child workers that benefit the corporations Teabag`Osy,
    .
    you do realize that usually these minimum paid jobs don`t really compensate these folks in any way normal people would consider `fair`

  247. IPA permalink
    October 8, 2013 2:20 pm

    Define normal. And fair.

    These jobs are taken by locals because they are better than the alternative, often subsistence agriculture where the work is harder for less reward. If the Nikes of the world were legislated out of these places the jobs would disappear with them.No doubt the local workers would be eternally grateful to the “normal” people for all their “fairness”.

  248. IPA permalink
    October 8, 2013 2:21 pm

  249. egg permalink
    October 8, 2013 3:18 pm

    The World Bank Report on Africa….

    ‘The report is the latest evidence that Africa’s dramatic growth – the much-hyped “Africa rising” phenomenon – is benefiting only a relatively small number of people. The trickle-down to ordinary Africans is hampered by rising inequality, leaving nearly half of Africans still mired in extreme poverty, the report said. By 2030, it noted, the majority of the world’s poor people will be in Africa.

    ‘The good news for Africa is that the economic expansion is fuelled by a diversity of sources. The rise is being generated by private investment, domestic demand, mining and oil exports, agriculture, the service sector, government spending, and a growth in infrastructure investment from relatively new sources such as China, India and Brazil, the report said.’

    The Globe and Mail

  250. October 8, 2013 3:27 pm

    Nikes that retail for $200-300 and the slave that made them got 3c may sound `fair` to you Teabag`osy, but we were talking about China. And l don`t believe for a minute that China will be as stupid as teh-west has been and `ever` let any of their factories `off-shore` like our idiots did.
    .
    btw, can`t see video, if that was dropped for my benefit

  251. October 8, 2013 4:18 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Define normal. And fair.’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    As Teabag`Osy has pointed out, most Tory`s, Teabags and other assorted corporate cranks have great difficulty with concepts that involve `ethics`. You may all recall famous crank Bolt, that need court appointed instruction on what was `ethical` when it came to `white-aboriginals`. ln the international sphere, GW-Bush displayed his non-ethical approach on how to treat kidnapped, uncharged prisoners and how to question them by redefining `torture` to a point where the line that separated `good` from `evil` was totally erased.

    So Teabags, Ethics 101,
    you should not treat others in a way that,
    1-you would not like to be treated yourself,
    2-or your mother treated,
    3-or your sister treated,
    4-or your wife treated.
    .
    lt is really fcuking simple Teabags!

  252. IPA permalink
    October 8, 2013 4:33 pm

    Wow, thanks for the sermon, Cabbage. Coming from you, it means a lot. Really.

  253. October 8, 2013 4:54 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘thanks for the sermon, Cabbage.’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    clearly you needed the sermon Teabag`Osy,
    Just coz Phil from Nike(boss) makes quotes like
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘workers don’t want to work in factories anymore’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    running around the interwebs, quoting them as gospel for China is just plain silly. China won`t be playing the stoopid, self-destructive capitalism-game that our idiots in teh-west have done. Those Jobs, Capital, Interlectual Property have all taken a one-way trip, and won`t be leaving China in our lifetime.

  254. TB Queensland permalink
    October 8, 2013 5:09 pm

    Well true to form Abbott has made a twit of himself on the world stage as predicted …

    Looks like the gaffes are comin’ thick and fast … 🙄 🙄 🙄

    Arriving noticeably late to the first session of the APEC leaders meeting in Bali yesterday – where 21 world leaders gathered to talk about important matters – Mr Abbott appeared to be snubbed by the Russian President Vladimir Putin.

    http://www.news.com.au/national-news/did-russian-president-vladimir-putin-snub-our-prime-minister-tony-abbott/story-fncynjr2-1226734836134

  255. IPA permalink
    October 8, 2013 5:09 pm

    Cabbage Head: “Just coz Phil from Nike(boss) makes quotes like
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘workers don’t want to work in factories anymore’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    running around the interwebs, quoting them as gospel for China is just plain silly.”

    Clearly facts aren’t your strong suit, or maybe it’s comprehension you struggle with. Whatever. Here ya go again:

    “Terry Gou, founder and Chief executive of Foxconn, China’s largest private employer and one of the manufacturers for the iPhone and iPad, claims that Chinese millennials aspire to more than the low-wage, mundane factory jobs which were held by so many in the previous generation and which spurred China’s decades-long economic boom”

    http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2013/10/07/young-chinese-take-this-factory-job-and-shove-it/

  256. IPA permalink
    October 8, 2013 5:13 pm

    “This morning, however, the iron curtain appeared to have been lifted with the two seen sharing a joke together at the Second leaders meeting.”

    #stoopidgaffeproneabbott

  257. egg permalink
    October 8, 2013 5:19 pm

    The Chinese don’t treat their own factory workers very well, so the Africans may yet again become the ignorant, poverty stricken slaves of a new world order.

    On the other hand, if the Chinese set out to develop a greater middle class the future would be more productive.

  258. TB Queensland permalink
    October 8, 2013 5:22 pm

    Sorry, ToSY, Abbott goofed …

    I wait in anticipation for the next country he manages to make Australia look stupid with …

  259. October 8, 2013 5:27 pm

    teabag`osy
    clearly common sense is not your strong suit
    THE AMERICAN INTEREST (your_url)
    .
    OF COURSE IT WILL RUN
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘workers don’t want to work in factories anymore’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    this type of yank-quote (so will bolt)

  260. TB Queensland permalink
    October 8, 2013 5:30 pm

    ToSY, I’d say Phil and Terry share many traits and beliefs … greed, money, impatience, money, views on the dickheadsmanual labour force, money, elitism, money, arrogance, money, contempt, money, bribery, money, god (yep even Terry) and of course money, oh, and power lots of manipulative power! 🙄 🙄

  261. TB Queensland permalink
    October 8, 2013 5:32 pm

    ToSY, I’d say Phil and Terry share many traits and beliefs … greed, money, impatience, money, views on the dickheads manual labour force, money, elitism, money, arrogance, money, contempt, money, bribery, money, god (yep even Terry) and of course money, oh, and power lots of manipulative power! 🙄 🙄

  262. October 8, 2013 5:34 pm

    l could understand Vlad snubbing Mr-Rabbit. Vlad is a `real`action-man, trained in martial-arts and weapons within a KGB type agency, not some pampered North-shore spoiled-brat with a sense of unearned entitlement.

  263. TB Queensland permalink
    October 8, 2013 6:14 pm

    But, Tony, surfs an’ rides bikes an’ stuff! 😯

  264. TB Queensland permalink
    October 8, 2013 6:16 pm

    I meant to comment a couple of times about how good the photo at the top is .. it actually shows our three star general stopping the boats … bloody brilliant … in every way …

  265. egg permalink
    October 8, 2013 7:24 pm

    “I guess you might say that in my own way I offered an apology because I appreciate this was a difficult situation for Malaysia,” Abbott told reporters in Bali on Tuesday after the bilateral meeting with Najib.’

    “I made it very clear to prime minister Najib that our opposition was never to Malaysia, it was to the former government.”

    Murphy / Guardian

  266. October 8, 2013 7:52 pm

    😆

  267. October 8, 2013 8:24 pm

    Yeah…let’s fuck ourselves & give the US carte blanche to monopolise us further. Let’s let them pursue our citizens at the behest of their corporate interests’ intellectual property grievances. 🙄

    All to satisfy the ideological fanatics who prostrate themselves at the altar of one sided ‘free’ trade.
    After all, it was soooo beneficial to the Mexicans that they stopped trying to flee across the border. 🙄

    unfknblvbl

  268. October 8, 2013 8:25 pm

    I’d almost forgotten what ‘free’ looked like under Howard.

  269. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 9, 2013 1:04 am

    l could understand Vlad snubbing Mr-Rabbit. Vlad is a `real`action-man, trained in martial-arts and weapons within a KGB type agency, not some pampered North-shore spoiled-brat with a sense of unearned entitlement.

    Snotnose north shore gits don’t have the same work ethic as real action men, the hard men of espionage know that punctuality is all important and tardiness costs lives 🙂

    shit…happens.

  270. IPA permalink
    October 9, 2013 7:47 am

    Slightly off topic, but it’s refreshing to see MPs so concerned with how hundreds, even thousands, of taxpayers’ dollars are being spent on travel “entitlements”. It’s a pity the same care isn’t taken when wasting spending billions on dubious government “programs”.

  271. IPA permalink
    October 9, 2013 8:33 am

    Joni Harris, call your office.

    “WASHINGTON — Instead of sending suspected terrorists to Guantanamo Bay or secret CIA “black” sites for interrogation, the Obama administration is questioning terrorists for as long as it takes aboard US naval vessels.”

  272. egg permalink
    October 9, 2013 9:05 am

    To avoid unnecessary carnage the hybrid approach looks promising.

  273. October 9, 2013 9:19 am

    Indeed.

    You can’t pretend that Bush’s Guantanamo was/is immoral but ignore deliberate legal blackholes which Obama is creating on ships.

  274. egg permalink
    October 9, 2013 10:08 am

    Drone attacks and abductions are unseemly, yet necessary.

  275. October 9, 2013 10:58 am

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘had not been read his Miranda rights, which include the rights to remain silent and speak with an attorney’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
    .
    sums it up for me lpad`osy, tho l distrust the land of the unfree anyway, murder by drone, torture in secret, remove all others rights, 4th-reich anyone.?
    .
    http://nypost.com/2013/10/08/warships-are-the-new-black-sites-for-terror-interrogations/

  276. TB Queensland permalink
    October 9, 2013 12:12 pm

    ToSY,

    … the al Libi affair has some major connotations for ALL of us … he was taken in a covert operation from a sovereign state the USA is not at war with, with no consultation with that state and is now held in international waters being interrogated …

    … the problem with this for me is that it could happen to anyone here … a simple case of stolen or mistaken identity and the Yanks can yank you from anywhere …

    … breaching the sovereignty of ANY country is a no-no … add to that individual rights and it sets too many dangerous precedents for other nations to follow …

  277. October 9, 2013 12:16 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Yeah…let’s fuck ourselves & give the US carte blanche to monopolise us further.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘All to satisfy the ideological fanatics who prostrate themselves at the altar of one sided ‘free’ trade.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
    .
    Don`t lose too much sleep over it Dunny,
    the teabags see bending over for teh-usa and unfree-trade as their duty `and` a perk, which unbeknown to them should really be offered to China.

  278. October 9, 2013 12:22 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘the problem with this for me is that it could happen to anyone here … a simple case of stolen or mistaken identity and the Yanks can yank you from anywhere’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
    .
    l hear where you`re coming from TB, but every since the London `squad` emptied a clip of bullets into the head of the brazillian electrician,
    .
    l have been well aware the my Govt is much more likely to kill and/or harm me than any terrorist ever will. _also,hicks,habib,haneef,etc

  279. October 9, 2013 2:12 pm

    Fair to say that, if the US did rendition you, our government would be extremely likely to allow it & extremely unlikely to protest or ameliorate it.

  280. TB Queensland permalink
    October 9, 2013 2:27 pm

    Yes, Toillette … when you start to think it through, you could see some people being a little concerned at simply travelling across the globe …

  281. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 9, 2013 2:40 pm

    Don`t lose too much sleep over it Dunny,
    the teabags see bending over for teh-usa and unfree-trade as their duty `and` a perk, which unbeknown to them should really be offered to China.

    We’re all the way with the USA because of western judeo-christian ‘values’ and if the US is threatened by a strong china, then australia is as well. And china doesn’t even care that everyone in their country disregards US predatory copyright agenda!
    “watch out, the commies are coming”.

  282. armchair opinionator permalink
    October 9, 2013 2:44 pm

    Expense claims kept secret: a team effort by Labor and the Coalition

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/08/expense-claims-kept-secret

    It took just three minutes for both major parties to exempt three key departments from freedom of information scrutiny

    Millions of dollars in expense claims by federal politicians are shielded from public scrutiny, as both major parties passed a law blocking access to information from both houses of parliament in May this year.

    It took just 10 minutes for the Coalition and Labor parties to agree to pass legislation that blocked three crucial government departments – the Department of the House, Department of the Senate and Department of Parliamentary Services – from freedom of information (FoI) laws.

  283. October 9, 2013 2:50 pm

    That shits me sooooo bad! Grrrrrrrrrrrrr…

  284. TB Queensland permalink
    October 9, 2013 2:54 pm

    Well that’s a relief, KL …. just more hidden information as in boats … makes Bowen* look like a hypocritical Fuckwit™ …

    *And all the other ALP pollies who threw rocks at the Liberal Party glasshouse …

    Out of sight out of mind …? I bloody hope not!

  285. egg permalink
    October 9, 2013 2:58 pm

    ‘Fair to say that, if the US did rendition you, our government would be extremely likely to allow it & extremely unlikely to protest or ameliorate it.’

    chuckle

  286. October 9, 2013 3:43 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘It took just three minutes for both major parties to exempt three key departments from freedom of information scrutiny’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/08/expense-claims-kept-secret

    there is our `choice` for ya,
    the damn duopoly acting together to smell as sweet as skunks
    #snout-trough

  287. October 9, 2013 3:49 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘And china doesn’t even care that everyone in their country disregards US predatory copyright agenda!’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
    thank heavens for small blessings 😆
    .
    the washington teabags are are also doing a fine job pissing on their creditors,(china) while they hold teh-usa to ransom over health-care

  288. TB Queensland permalink
    October 9, 2013 5:06 pm

    China is laughing all the way to world domination … get to know your local Chinatown mayor now! 😆

    Still, given the choice between Chinese Law and Sharia Law … 😯

  289. October 9, 2013 10:52 pm

    Yes, l`ve noticed dunlop has seemed to be one of the few that have awoken from the `spell` most of troll-media are under, Dunny. l hold little hope the Canberra Press Gallery will snap out of it any time soon tho, they seem to be the thickest.

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