Sisa: The new drug that’s more harmful than Crystal Meth
Sisa, a variant of Crystal Meth cut with battery acid, engine oil or shampoo, has become the new drug of choice in Greece because it is cheap.
It is known as “the cocaine of the poor” with one hit costing as little as 1 Euro.
The drug heightens sex drive and turns users aggressive and violent leaving them with little or no recollection of their behaviour when they sober up.
With an estimated 25,000 drug users living in Athens alone, Sisa has established itself as the drug of choice for many simply because it is all they can afford.
As the economy spirals into a black hole of austerity Greece’s poor and desperate are being sacrificed at the altar of austerity.
Greek social agencies, already stretched to capacity trying to deal with astronomical levels of poverty simply can’t handle the devastation that Sisa now presents.
The government, for its part, has decided on a ‘not in our neighbourhood’ policy.
Instead of trying to deal with the epidemic, it has pushed drug abusers from the centre of Athens out to suburbs and far away from the prying media eye.
The social impact of Sisa is similar to the deadly wave of destruction that the latest street drug Krokodil is causing in Russia.
Krokodil has a similar effect to heroin and is made from a toxic combination of desomorphine, gasoline, paint thinner, hydrochloric acid, iodine and red phosphorous, which they scrape from the striking pads on matchboxes.
It is injected directly into the skin. It gives a much shorter high than heroin does and requires addicts to keep injecting over days.
Its effects are devastating and results in the user’s skin literally rotting away and falling off.
Currently, Sisa is mainly a problem in Greece, where it has taken hold amongst the struggling nation’s homeless and unemployed youths.
Authorities fear that like other new synthetic drugs such as Kratom and Bath Salts that first emerged in in other countries, it will be making its way to the rest of the world soon.
Here is a documentary about Sisa from Vice.com.
theguttertrash.com 
Nasty, nasty junk.
I read about that krokodil last week, truly horrendous.
I despair for anyone who feels compelled to inject toxic recreational substances into themselves. Let alone such cheap & obviously venomous poison.
The needle is certainly the step too far which should never be taken. It is the destroyer. Too few come back from it, once they’ve tasted the extreme.
My guess is that it won’t catch on in Oz because of the rotting flesh.
“My guess is that it won’t catch on in Oz because of the rotting flesh”
It’s Krokodil that causes the rotting flesh, not Sisa…
The trends in meth usage in Australia suggest that your prediction may be incorrect…
http://theconversation.com/crystal-meth-harms-on-the-rise-in-australia-18190
Interesting to note that ‘Tsisa’ is Greek slang for ‘piss’.
Wonder if there’s an etymological connection with Sisa…
Just the “ingredients” are enough to turn your stomach … of all those
“drugs”concoctions …. who must “design” this shite …What awful garbage it must be …
Welcome to the 21st Century … all the worst of science fiction seems to be here, now …
… and yet its almost like a reversion to the 1st Century BC… piercings, tattoos, brightly coloured hair, “music” that comprises of a thumping backbeat and noises, gangs now on motorbikes instead of horses – carrying guns instead of axes and swords and the ordianary folk simply trying to escape a life of misery …
Nothing, it seems, changes and nothing is new …
Personally I find the emergence of Sisa really terrifying…
With youth unemployment at a staggering 62% in Greece, and not too dissimilar in other European countries, it’s easy to see how young people could become alienated from society and come to realise that they really have no future.
Combine this disconnection from society with a new highly addictive drug that is widely available for as little as one dollar a hit, and it’s not difficult to see that this is time bomb exploding in our midst…
Add to this, the fact that the Govt in Greece is closing down the medical facilities that normally treat addicts due to austerity measures and we are basically witnessing the complete destruction of the next generation and society at large.
Oh this is just so awful. God help us all.
“Interesting to note that ‘Tsisa’ is Greek slang for ‘piss’.”
I think it means “glass” according to the Vice documentary (which is definitely worth watching)…
‘It’s Krokodil that causes the rotting flesh, not Sisa…’
Tah
It does sound dreadful, but this is a country that deliberately makes wine that tastes like retsina.
… that deliberately makes wine that tastes like retsina … I REMEMBER, ToM, and sell it like petrol out of big plastic vats in supermarkets just take along your old engine oil bottles and top ‘er up … red or white wine … they both taste like urine …
Thank goodness for ouzo … the best (and Greek way) to drink ouzo is mixed with water … or just make sure you’ve got plenty of duty free …
Some time ago, I went to the Daphne Wine Festival, near Athens.
It is where you go to try the very best of Greek wine. I had to drink about a gallon of it before I’d anesthetised my taste buds.
The pine resin is an acquired taste.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘a variant of Crystal Meth’ ‘ ‘ ‘
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘has become the new drug of choice
in GreeceGold-Coast area because it is cheap.’ ‘ ‘ ‘‘ ‘ ‘ ‘the cocaine of the poor” with one hit costing as little as’ ‘ ‘
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘and turns users aggressive and violent’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
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Too Late. Many Hospitals are already dealing with this type of shit here in AU.
Its an opportune time for drug law reform.
Would you care to elaborate egg?
Its evolution at work if you ask me and as tragic as it is for the users and their families I doubt that much can actually be done about it.
A rather bad business model for drug dealers though if it kills off your customers but Rather than just hearing about how nasty and evil it is what solutions to you paragons of leftist virtue propose can be done?
I await the unleashing of your inner totalitarians….
‘Would you care to elaborate egg?’
I wasn’t thinking of the Greek situation, but on the possibility of it coming to Australia.
The aim of good government is to seek harm minimisation, so we deserve to be told the truth about intoxicants, the possible harm and benefits in moderation. At the moment alcohol is the most dangerous drug in society and its fairly cheap.
“Rather than just hearing about how nasty and evil it is what solutions to [sic] you sanctimonious, condescending pompous gits of the so-called “right”
paragons of leftist virtuepropose can be done?”‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Its evolution at work if you ask me’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
That`s the simple explanation l suppose.
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Last week my Tory neighbor gave me a verbal spanking over the election result. (Yay-Mr-Rabbit) when he complained about some of his kids friends being `un-savioury` types, and he thought they were using drugs. l reassured him they probably were, and so was his kids, as `party`pills and dope have been cheaper than cigarettes and booze for years now.
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Cheers Canterlopes.
“Its [sic] so-called “trickle down” capitalism
evolutionat work if you ask me and as tragic as it is for the users and their families I doubt that much can actually be done about it.”“l reassured him they probably were”
😆
Reb
With street drugs this nasty I doubt that much can be done beyond helping families with funeral expenses.
Nihilistic drug use like this does tend to be rather unsolvable which makes great shows of compassion for the suffering of addicts rather pointless.
Just out of curiosity how many people that you have personally known well have become slaves to intoxicants? Because in my experience those who have actually had to deal with addicts have a somewhat different attitude to the one you are displaying here.
I think closer to home, 730 is right…. You can buy a tab of LSD for $5 or an eccy for $15 these days, so it beats me why people are so up in arms about alco-pops…
And then we have the makers of synthetic drugs (bath salts) being allowed to peddle their wares relatively freely.
Synthetic drugs were only banned for sale in NSW as of today, but naturally anyone can still buy them online.
We have become a society that’s obsessed with consumerism and “image”, with boys as young as ten or 11 taking “supplements” to get the perfect body (yes it’s not just a female thing anymore)…
No wonder so many young people are seeking a momentary reprieve from the social expectations or consuming anything that’s handed to them in a pill for a high with their mates…
The so-called “war on drugs” was lost in the last 10 years or so, and drugs won.
”
Nihilistic drug use like this does tend to be rather unsolvable which makes great shows of compassion for the suffering of addicts rather pointless”
Wow… , just wow. 😯
“Just out of curiosity how many people that you have personally known well have become slaves to intoxicants?”
Quite a few actually, more than I can list to be honest. I’ve known a few who were using heroin in my twenties. Two of them ended up dead after overdosing.
Almost everyone on my circle of friends when I was in my twenties and thirties used ecstasy and coke, some would snort anything that resembled white powder without giving it a second thought. Some of them are just “recreational” weekend users, others I lost contact with after their “recreational use” became the main purpose for socialising, and that’s mostly been due to meth….
Once they start slamming it, that seems to mark the transition to becoming addicted to it..
I think it’s terribly sad, because no one ever sets out to become an addict.
It’s insidious, and I’ve seen people destroyed by it. They just end up hollowed-out shadows of their former selves.
And those who do try to quit, and subsequently relapse, are the ones who usually od because their tolerance drops and they overestimate how much they can take…
“Because in my experience those who have actually had to deal with addicts have a somewhat different attitude to the one you are displaying here.”
I’d be interested to get some insight into what you think my “attitude” is in regards to this?
In search of harm minimisation … seek drug law reform.
http://www.druglawreform.com.au/
@-war on drugs, agree, no doubt drugs have won, Govts have abdicated to even control them.
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Prohibition doesn`t work, and never will.
To create a thriving `black`market in a product you only one of two things,
1-prohibit the produce, or,
2-gouge the consumer on price.
.
1-Al Capone built an empire coz of `prohibition`.
2-Nikes, Software,cds,dvds, alcohol, tobacco, fashion-items are all `pirated` and on the world black market coz the price-gap that is created when the `legit`stuff starts gouging.
Reb
Firstly thanks for sharing that and to be frank I am most surprised that you are still implicitly hopeful that the users that form the topic of this post can actually be “saved”.
My experiences are not that unlike your own to be honest and I find addiction so sad that the only way to consider addicts is to see them as zombies of which only a very small number will ever come out the other side of their habits as functional human beings again. I will cheer and celebrate those few as heartily as anyone else but the undead are more likely to be beyond redemption.
So I’m a pragmatist who thinks that we have to perform a sort of emotional triage when we deal with such badly broken people otherwise they will just tear your heart out and then sell it to buy drugs.
Thanks Iain, I’m in the middle of something at the moment but will come back with a more detailed reply later…
To be honest and I find teabags so sad that the only way to consider teabags is to see them as zombies of which only a very small number will ever come out the other side of their beliefs as functional human beings again. I will cheer and celebrate those few in lndi, that have finally found redemption.
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So I’m a realist who enjoys having Palmers pups in the Senate (GO-WATERMELON) and tho the big-dog`s barking in the House-of-Reps won`t make Mr-Rabbit a `Lame-duck`, his pups in the senate will.
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Cheers Cabbages
“Once they start slamming it, that seems to mark the transition to becoming addicted to it..”
I consider that to be the virtual point of no return.
l take it that `slamming-it` means injecting.? @dunny or @reb
Yep.
“I am most surprised that you are still implicitly hopeful that the users that form the topic of this post can actually be “saved”.
I’m not sure if that was necessarily conveyed.
I think the tragedy of it all for me lies on a number of fronts:
Up until recently, people who found themselves addicted to opiates or amphetamines would find themselves with (arguably) effective treatment options and facilities if they sought help. Some would argue that methadone is just a State-sanctioned heroin substitute that replaces one addiction with another (which is another topic in its own right).
In terms of heroin, many users can lead productive, otherwise “ordinary” functioning lives, and may not suffer any significant life-threatening effects. They can live 20,30,40 or 50 years with their addiction with the only “major” health risk being the danger of contracting blood borne viruses and diseases.
Similarly with cocaine. Some users may develop a nasty little habit, but it’s generally nothing that a stint in rehab can’t fix.
It’s really only in the last 10-20 years that we have witnessed a new generation of drugs – beginning with crack in the late 1980s through to meth in the 1990s (although it’s been around for much longer), and now with Sisa, which have little if any effective treatments available.
Meth in particular (as you may well know) provides an initial surge of dopamine, that while providing a euphoric rush, simultaneously destroys the user’s dopamine receptors.
With the pleasure centres in the brain destroyed, the meth addict is plunged into an extended period of severe depression that can last 12-24 months. It’s no wonder that many seek out more meth as a way to temporarily relieve the depression.
I was reading that the average life-span of a meth addict is 2 years.
For Sisa it’s 6 months.
Coming back to your observation that I think some of them can be “saved,” I’m not sure if they can, but I despair at the thought that as a society, we are standing idly by and doing nothing, while thousands of young people (currently in Greece, but potentially the rest of the world) are destroying their lives.
Recent research show that meth use is on the rise in Australia.
It’s only a matter of time before people start cooking up Sisa.
slamming = injecting…
And sadly, there’s a kind of superiority-club-like mentality (for want of a better term) that slammers have… They look down their noses at people who just snort or inhale their drugs…
(I’m being serious, I’ve seen it)..
They think that shooting up is cool, whereas everyone else are just amateurs…
Only yesterday I was sitting having a coffee in Federation Square, when this young guy who couldnt’ve been more that 20 something, sauntered up and said (very politely) “Excuse me sir, I’m sorry for interrupting you, but I’m homeless and I’m wondering if you could spare some change..”
Taken off guard, my instant reaction was to shake my head, and quite abruptly he took off to target someone else.
I had a few conflicting thoughts after the event:
– Isn’t it quite fkn sad, and callous, that I just dismissed this kid without really considering his predicament (he only wanted a couple of bucks after all)
– I just assumed that he was a junkie – is that really fair?
– Isn’t it sad that we’re all just so uncaring and cynical these days?
I didn’t really reconcile any of these thoughts, but “justified” my response (to myself) by thinking – well he left quickly so he’s obviously a junkie looking for a fix….
I guess that other alternative would’ve been to ask him to sit down, have a chat, and let him explain his predicament, but then he may have just spun me some bullshit story and I might’ve ended up handing over fifty bucks or something, and then no doubt felt like a mug afterwards….
It bothers me that we have become so cynical, but I’ll be buggered if I know what the alternative is…
Anyone care to suggest?
That`s an interesting explainer reb. Thanks.
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l saw a doco some time ago. lt was about an Ex-fbi-cia-dea agent,(yank) who after he retired from the agency charted drug-use and major drug-busts. lt was very interesting, as when say `dope` was a major bust in January, `coke` use went thru the roof in February, meaning, when users couldn`t get their drug of-choice, users transfered to another drug. l can`t remember the agents/docos name, but next time it is on the TV l will drop the info on your blog.
Thanks 730 I’d appreciate that….
It’s true that when the supply of one drug (heroin for example) was tight, users would switch to meth as an alternative..
That was the case 10 or 15 years ago.
What we are witnessing today (ie in the past 2-5 years), is an unprecedented availability of traditional opiates (heroin) with high purity, as well as “stronger” methamphetamine and an explosion in the availability of synthetic drugs (bath salts)..
10 or 20 years ago, the market was driven by cost and demand – when heroin was scarce, users would switch to meth, today there is a product available at every price point starting at one dollar a hit and supply is abundant.
We are now in the midst of an unprecedented episode in history, but just like when AIDS eventuated in the early 80’s, cash-strapped governments seem to be ignoring the problem because the people who are dying are society’s disposable outcasts…
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘people who are dying are society’s disposable outcasts’ ‘ ‘ ‘
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in the last 15 years or so, Govts of all kinds have been dismantling themselves and looting the national silverware for the benefit of the elite. We are all disposable outcasts that the Govts don`t give a shit about, their actions scream this as far as l`m concerned. The `neglect` and abdication of governing shits me to no end.
HEAR HEAR 730…!
And now we have everyone bending over backwards to let Prince Harry and his lick-spittling suckhole Tony Abbott shaft us up the proverbial in the name of good old fashioned elitism…..
Miners switched from pot to coke when drug testing was introduced … pot can last for a few days … coke will dissipate in less than 12 hours …
As a competency based learning consultant a colleague and I had proposed a skills test rather than a drug test … state government didn’t listen … some miners understood the difference …
With the onset of robots and autocontrol who needs human labour?
A revolution is coming … welcome to the 21st Century …
“With the onset of robots and autocontrol who needs human labour?”
Slave (child) labour is still cheaper….
The idea that robots would improve productivity efficiencies was purely limited to the automative industry on a speculative basis.
And we’ve seen how that’s all worked out….
What’s old is new again….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gin_Craze
By 1721, however, Middlesex magistrates were already decrying gin as “the principal cause of all the vice & debauchery committed among the inferior sort of people”. 😆 In 1736, the Middlesex Magistrates complained, “It is with the deepest concern your committee observe the strong Inclination of the inferior Sort of People 😆 to these destructive Liquors, and how surprisingly this Infection has spread within these few Years … it is scarce possible for Persons in low Life 😆 to go anywhere or to be anywhere, without being drawn in to taste, and, by Degrees, to like and approve of this pernicious Liquor.
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Silly old cnut.
It may surprise you Reb but when it comes to recreational drug use I am at heart an unreconstructed hippie who believes in an individual’s right to make their own choices. I am also horrified by the ever increasing number of anonymous powders and pills of unknown composition that people are willing to take to get high. In the interests of public safety I tend towards the decriminalisation of cannabis and the continued efforts to discourage the use of all powders and pills. At least with cannabis a user can judge its quality potency with some ease and no one has died from weed overdose.
As someone who has to use opiates on a daily basis (for my chronic pain) it is somewhat sobering to read the notice on the packets that says“CONTROLLED DRUG possession without authority illegal” and I am grateful that here at least we live in a society that can adequately regulate such medicines even though they are so easily abused.
I am grateful that here at least we live in a society that can adequately regulate such medicines even though they are so easily abused.
Much better than an economy that simply profits from drugs sales, hey, IH?
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘I am at heart an unreconstructed hippie who believes in an individual’s right to make their own choices.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
So you would support whole-heartedly,
1-Voluntary Euthanasia(Swiss-Model)
2-Gay Marriage
3-Womens Medicals(abortion/reproductive)
.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘I am also horrified by the ever increasing number of anonymous powders and pills of unknown composition that people are willing to take to get high.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘As someone who has to use opiates on a daily basis (for my chronic pain) it is somewhat sobering to read the notice on the packets that says“CONTROLLED DRUG possession without authority illegal” and I am grateful that here at least we live in a society that can adequately regulate such medicines even though they are so easily abused.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
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Trusting big-pharma as being `safe` is nonsense, so is the idea that they are less `addictive`, l don`t trust big-pharma as far as l can drop-kick a street-dealer.
TB Queensland
There is no sin or evil in those who legally sell drugs making a profit as long as the needed medicament is affordable by those who need them
Cheers Cabbages
Any individual can commit suicide at their pleasure, however I have serious reservations about creating a situation where an organisation exists and profits from this.
I endorse the notion that all individuals are welcome to love who ever they please and to cohabit however they choose. However when it comes to same sex couples I do not think their unions have to be formalised as a marriage. If some form of social recognition of those unions is desirable then I favour civil unions.
We are all of us human beings no matter what our gender may be and I simply do not think that it is right to dismiss the humanity of the unborn for the convenience of those who wish to kill them with moral impunity. That said I do accept that abortion is sometimes justifiable/necessary and that the longer that a gestation progresses the harder it should be for that unborn child to be executed for the convenience of the mother.
.
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Getting my legal opiates from a street dealer would be madness, unreliable in terms of quality and supply and you advocating such a course is a clear example of the silliness of the conspiracy theorist. While some suspicion of profit driven corporations is reasonable your paranoia is not.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘and you advocating such a course’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
.
not `advocating` anything,
just pointing out that big-pharma from time to time is no safer than a street-dealer
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘We are all of us human beings no matter what our gender may be and I simply do not think that it is right to dismiss the humanity of the unborn for the convenience of those who wish to kill them with moral impunity. That said I do accept that abortion is sometimes justifiable/necessary and that the longer that a gestation progresses the harder it should be for that unborn child to be executed for the convenience of the mother.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
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This reply reads like a copy/paste from a Teabag blog. Stock-answer! Piers.? Miranda.?
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On a man-to-man level, l find it quite fascinating Teabags require the approval of other Teabags about what goes on between their womans legs.(or_doesn`t) Equally strange is the female-Teabags desire the approval of the Teabag community about what goes on between her legs too.(or_doesn`t)
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l guess l`m happy just wanting women to have their medical issues being between `her` and her-doctor without the `ifs`, `buts` and caveattes that Teabags put on topics to make them political-footballs.
There is no sin or evil in those who legally sell drugs making a profit as long as the needed medicament is affordable by those who need them
First of all, “sin and evil” are a bit biblical for me as i keep saying I’m agnostic I don’t “believe” … there are nice people and arseholes … surprisingly enough the arseholes usually believe in sin and evil … what a strange world …
Legally selling drugs for profit is fine but you do tag it with (and I agree), “as long as …” … because I suspect that your drugs are supported by the PBS Scheme and therefore by a caring society … unlike the Über Kapital of the Western Hubris States of The World … where drug profiteering is rampant and they even think they own your DNA!
Soon to be challenged, methinks, a “discovery” is not an “invention” …
Cheers Cabbages
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Neither,it is a position that I have arrived at after much thought over many years.Let me put it this way: would you condone the killing of a new born baby? No? well what of a baby a week earlier? or a month earlier? or two months? At what point do you think that child deserves protection from being killed? because when it comes down to it that is teh ethical issue you are refusing to consider. As I see it there are competing imperatives between a woman’s bodily autonomy and the child she carries and all that I am saying is that the balance between them is not fixed but it changes with the passage of time. Sadly far too many young lefties like your self have been brow beaten by feminist ideology into lacking the courage to defend the defenceless at any time whcih is a sad indictment of the so called compassionate left.
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Actually I don’t care what anyone else thinks about this issue
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Well that is an utter cop out.
TB Queensland
Hmm that is a semantic argument that I think Is just trying to avoid the issue to be frank.
I agree and I also fully support the PBS
likewise agree
I can see that Iain hasn’t thought with much care about the issue of marriage equality.
If he thought carefully, he would acknowledge that a cohesive and inclusive society encourages all groups, demographics, and orientations to participate equally in its institutions.
It’s a mystery to me how anyone could advocate an inclusive community while seeking to marginalise specified minority groups.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Well that is an utter cop out.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ HOW.? WHY.?
.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘lefties like your self’ ‘ ‘ ‘ WRONG.
just coz l don`t grovel to the rabid Teabag tune, does not make me `lefty`
.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘brow beaten by feminist ideology’ ‘ ‘ ‘ WRONG.
l spank the `feminista` probably 3/4 of the time,
neither `brow`beaten nor `feminista`
l just have the brains to separate `medical-issues` from dog-bothering.
.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘lacking the courage’ ‘ ‘ ‘
l see no `courage` in persecuting women over medical-issues in the name of`dog`
I can see that Iain hasn’t thought
withmuchcare about the issue of marriage equality.“The drug clearly had psycho-tropic effects . . . it was a mind-altering drug,” Mr Hamill said. “The substance wasn’t legal. The troubling thing is that it appears there was real confusion over that . . . It seems it was utterly unregulated.”
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/bath-salts-death-glenn-punchs-terrifying-end-20131008-2v5jp.html#ixzz2h6MiHCFb
Fascinating tale reb-aroo
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Mr Punch and Ms Hickel, from the central coast, had tried the drug on four or five occasions and each time Ms Hickel had flushed the remainder down the toilet because it had terrifying effects on her partner, often causing him to take off his clothes, say strange things and become fidgety.’ ‘ ‘ ‘
‘
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘”It was like the lights were on but no one was home,” Ms Hickel said’ ‘ ‘ ‘
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/bath-salts-death-glenn-punchs-terrifying-end-20131008-2v5jp.html#ixzz2h6MiHCFb
‘
what l don`t `get` with these type of things is, Hickel has already been scared shit-less by this junk, but the keeps `trying` the shit a few more times, you would think that they, or she anyway would learn, and go find something `less` nasty, if there is such a thing. *scary-injectable*
Reb &ToM
just because I have not come to the same conclusions as you about the issue of same sex marriage does not mean that my thinking about it has not been as deep or sincere as your own.
Remember that you have to persuade those of us who are unconvinced that such a change to the institution of marriage rather than just denouncing and insulting us.
“Remember that you have to persuade those of us who are unconvinced”
Why should we have to persuade you?
Perhaps those who wish to continue to perpetuate discrimination should be the ones explaining themselves rather than the onus being on those who are being discriminated against compelled to argue the case…
At any rate, the rationale for “marriage equality” (it is about “equality” after all) has already been articulated ad nauseum by lawyers, proponents of social justice and human rights activists (and a certain US president)…
The only people left resolutely opposed in the 21st Century are either conservative religious zealots, bigots (or both).
And seeing as we’re living in a democracy n’all, with an overwhelming majority of Australians in favour of marriage equality, perhaps Iain, the onus is on you to explain why your position isn’t untenable?
Teabags in teh-usa fear gay-marriage in case it stimulates gay-marriage and/or outing within the Rupugs ranks. Whats Australian`s excuse.?
I also believe that women should be priests in the catlik church … that the freemasons should admit people who don’t believe in a “supreme being” … Soylent Green may become an answer in the real world eventually …
Reb
If you are so sure of the support for your position then lets see it put to the people in a plebiscite, that after all would be far more democratic than relying on opinion polling now wouldn’t it?
That said the issue is not really about “equality” as much as it is about Homosexuals wanting more general social affirmation and endorsement which is something that can’t be forced and will take time.
While you are waiting just how are you restricted in the way you live your life in this country? Are you prevented from being open about your sexuality? Are you prevented from living with anyone you please? Your relationships are recognised for all financial and administrative purposes along with all of the other changes wrought by the last Labor government to remove discrimination against same sex couples. I for one think that those were worth while reforms that have been very well accepted.
Changing the definition of marriage is however a bridge too far for many people, myself included, but Civil unions would be far less contentious and would provide all of the recognition that would be practically required. Advocate that and I very much doubt that the resistance would be anywhere near as determined as it has been about changing the definition of marriage.
While Aussie Teabags are willing to be dragged around by the nose by teh-usa teabags and are willing to be used for non-australian issues, this country will also be held back.
“Advocate that and I very much doubt that the resistance would be anywhere near as determined as it has been about changing the definition of marriage.”
I fail to see why I should accept anything less than equality under the eyes of the law..
Unless you’re advocating that some people are less than equal and should just accept that? ( which seems to be the case)….
Laws get changed all the time, in case you hadn’t noticed.. Women and aboriginals can vote now, while slavery, once a “tradition” is now generally frowned upon in most polite circles …
Your so-called argument against marriage equality is full of holes, and at any rate, it’s only a matter of time until your team loses the fight.
Your views and those of your ilk on this issue are no longer relevant in the 21st century..,
… that after all would be far more democratic than relying on opinion polling now wouldn’t it?
Is that the same as the polling for elections? 🙄 🙄
Your views and those of your ilk on this issue are no longer relevant in the 21st century..,
And that IS disturbing … that the weaker voice is listened to … democracy … secular … phffft
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘That said the issue is not really about “equality” as much as it is about Homosexuals wanting more general social affirmation and endorsement which is something that can’t be forced and will take time.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
.
This is basically what my local homophobes say too.
The phobes bullshit along the lines of
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘the issue is not really about “equality”’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
quite often, which is straight-out wrong.
“But if we give gays and lesbians equality, pretty soon everyone will want it!”
“And then who will we have left to hate…??!!”
… quite often, which is straight-out wrong.
With the emphasis on straight … or should that be translated into … pia hypocritæ
And why are we supposed to italicise Latin anyway?
Maybe the translation should be … sanctimonous pungent … 🙄 🙄
no emphasis teabag of queensland 🙂 smartarse
reb
Well the real question happens to be just how you define “equality” as it pertains to this issue doesn’t it?
I am not advocating anything at all here merely making some observations about the underlying motives of the proponents for changing the definition of marriage.
🙄 that is such a tired and disengenious retort
The point is simply this , unless you can actually take the people with you to unambiguously endorse the change that you seek then it may not be the benefit that you imagine it to be,
Why then do they so scare you then?
TB Queensland
Well that is a point in support of my argument because we all know that polling and election results are seldom the same
which means what?
.
Thus you show a great inability to address the point that I am making
“Well the real question happens to be just how you define “equality” as it pertains to this issue doesn’t it?”
errr …
equality = equality
You really are a pseudo-intellectual pompous fuckwit aren’t you Iiain…?
How about you state a logical argument as to why marriage equality shouldn’t be allowed, and then we can have an intelligent discussion…
🙄
which means what?
That secular democracy has been hi-jacked by religious “beliefs” with a little help from The Robber Barons … only slightly different agendas …
Well that is a point in support of my argument because we all know that polling and election results are seldom the same
Well … these days that’s not exactly true … still I’d be in favour of a plebiscite … just to prove the polls …
IH, I’ve been married for 45 years … and quite frankly we only went through the motions to satisfy our parents … at 21 and 19 we were quite happy with the Registrar Office … however!
Those people of same sex orientation who are god botherers have the RIGHT to be married as any other person …
Thank you Iain.
Some people emanate credibility, others enemate it.
I love the conservative obsession with other people’s reproductive organs & the manner in which they may or may not be administered.
It’s about as non’libertarian as it gets…but, ya see, it’s selective conservative libertarianism. Much like their selective scepticism, when their views on theism & AGW are laid bare.
“do not think that it is right to dismiss the humanity of the unborn”
Hilarious…and you think ‘lefties’ are ‘bleeding hearts’.
So much for conservative pragmatism.
Flexible ‘ideals’ which are applied when convenient & just as easily ignored when not.
reb
That is just far to simplistic
Ah the Ad Hominem attack and resort to abuse makes an appearance, a sign that your argument is weak and that you fear that you can not win on sound argument and civil debate .
The really important thing when it comes to pair bonds between individuals of the same gender is that they should be able to be openly possible without social exclusion, subterfuge or negative consequences. That is the situation in this country and it is one of the things that I think makes Australia one of the best societies on the planet. It saddens me greatly that you seem unable or unwilling to grasp that I am not the enemy here, that I have no animosity at all towards homosexuals its just that I happen to disagree with the notion that Marriage should be redefined to include same sex couples. I have always believed that creating another legal instrument like a civil union is a better answer to the question.
TB Queensland
Well you seem to be losing sight of the history of our society and the origins of our democracy are rooted in a time and society that took for granted the existence of the deity and notions of a “secular” society are rather recent in their origin. Frankly I have been a life long atheist but I have long since given up being as petulant about people of faith as you so clearly are. Such hatred will just warp your perceptions and shorten your life.
Ah some common ground,I thought it was here somewhere.
I salute you for the longevity of your marriage My wife and I have only got about 30 runs on the board but the efforts to keep up the batting is similar. That said if you think that changing the marriage act would satisfy the desire of same sex couples to have their relationships endorsed by the various churches then surely you are at odds with your often espoused secularism because no proposal for same sex marriage taht I have seen would oblige any church or its ministers to perform a religious marriage ritual. …
toiletofremunerationunafflictedbypopularfables
Well to be entirely Francis I don’t care at all what people do with their genitals as long as its entirely consensual and done in private
Even the most libertarian among us recognise the fact that there are limits to personal liberty and taht the trick is to find the right balance between individual desires and the needs for a fair and functional society.
I just love the way that when it comes to people of faith that those like yourself are dismissive and derogatory, and then you attack those of us who do not share your own faith in the Green religion
toiletofremunerationunafflictedbypopularfables
So you don’t have the cahones to address the ethical question I pose eh?
I am not surprised to be honest
In a nutshell you have enunciated the problem with your own style of argument.
This is where Teabags fall over,
.
On womens-medical teabags generally say,
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘I simply do not think that it is right to dismiss the humanity of the unborn for the convenience of those who wish to kill them with moral impunity.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
.
but the teabags were very keen to `dismiss the humanity` of the citizens of lraq for the convenience of those who wish to kill them with moral impunity and steal the oil resources, all based on a pack of lies.
.
On Voluntary Euthanasia teabags generally say,
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Any individual can commit suicide at their pleasure, however I have serious reservations about creating a situation where an organisation exists and profits from this.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
.
There is no credible consistency from Teabags here,
*womens-medical = murder.?
*killing lraqies by the 1000s doen`t.?
*Voluntary-Euthanasia not allowed to ease suffering.?
*Guantanamo is allowed to create suffering.?
“That is just far to [sic] simplistic”
Actually, some things, believe it or not, are actually quite simple.
“Equality,” as an absolute concept, is one of them.
It is the bigots and homophobes who like to cloud their underlying hatred with pseudo-intellectual pondering.
The reality is that there is no rational argument against marriage equality and I’ve yet to see you come up with one other than “you just don’t like it”.
To which I say;
“I really couldn’t give a fuck.”
“Such hatred will just warp your perceptions and shorten your life.”
From the mouths of babes……. 😆 🙄
Oh dear, where to begin.
” there are limits to personal liberty ”
I’d not have thought that that would reasonably extend to the reproductive organs of other individuals (and their partners).
“I just love the way that when it comes to people of faith that those like yourself are dismissive and derogatory, and then you attack those of us who do not share your own faith in the Green religion ”
You are incorrect that I’m any sort of proponent of ‘green religion’…or any other religion. I’m am AGW agnostic, fwiw.
My point about sceptical zeal for AGW juxtaposed against the total lack of scepticism in regard to theism stands. Most conservatives (who aren’t already religious social conservatives) are too timid to call theism for the bullshit which it is.
“So you don’t have the cahones to address the ethical question I pose eh?
I am not surprised to be honest ”
What a stupid statement. You have no fucking idea about the size of my cojones. I’d wager that they’re substantially larger than yours. Mine clang when I walk, Iain. But that’s a pointless circular argument to be getting into on the internet really, isn’t it.
I can only assume that you think you’ve intellectually cornered me with your ‘ethical question’, given that you appear to be deriding my courage [if I accept that you’re not actually discussing the size of my testicles]. 😯
If your ethical question was about whether or not an unborn baby is a person, I’m more than happy to answer.
In a word, no, I don’t think it is. I grew up on a farm & am very well grounded in the unspectacular gore of birth.
I also think that it’s not up to the rest of the population, religious conservatives & people like you, in particular, to decide for the individual whether abortion is ‘moral’ or not…much less attempt to prohibit it altogether.
In a nutshell you have enunciated that you didn’t properly comprehend what I was saying. Likely because you aren’t actually familiar with my positions on many issues.
Which ‘ideals’ are those which you infer I am ignoring? yours, perhaps?
” Such hatred will just warp your perceptions and shorten your life. ”
Having the cojones to call theism out for what it is (ie. unsubstantiable rubbish) is in no way synonymous with hatred. That is just an attempt at dismissal.
The rest of that sentence is just false crud.
Teabags tend to wallow in the shallows and quickly find they are out of their depth.
Here is one l prepared earlier.
https://theguttertrash.com/2013/09/30/abbott-govt-left-asylum-seekers-to-drown/#comment-35381
Binary for Teabags, the basics.
Teabags often suffer from being unable to identify `binary` topics.
What does this mean.? l hear you shriek.
*
A `binary` topic has only a limited amount of outcomes/results, technically it is Two. An example of this is `pregnant`. A farmer wants to know if his dairy cow is pregnant, his vet is called, inspects the cow, and says the cow is,
1-pregnant, or
2-not pregnant
*please notice teabags, there is NO SANE 3RD CHOICE like a-little-bit-pregnant!
.
Some Common `binary` terms the world uses,
fair/unfair, just/unjust, equal/unequal, sane/insane, free/unfree, dead/undead,
Iain might struggle with that concept Cabbages..
Frankly I have been a life long atheist but I have long since given up being as petulant about people of faith as you so clearly are. Such hatred will just warp your perceptions and shorten your life.
Oh, I see that, Toillette said pretty much what I thought …
Still the comment was aimed at me … y’know, IH, as soon as some people here get a bit wobbly about their arguments they drop the ball and tackle the player … you may have a been petulant but don’t accuse me of it …
FYI, I’m just plain fkn angry based upon a lifetime of hypocrisy costing me time, money, friends and family simply because certain dumb arsed people believe in a man made myth, or three, written down centuries after the event(s) – as if the “authors” were there and “knew” … and because of their beliefs can do no wrong, or, if they do, they’ll be absolved or something … (dissolved would be best for some I know) … (Talk about Chinese Whispers)
Well you seem to be losing sight of the history of our society and the origins of our democracy are rooted in a time and society that took for granted the existence of the deity and notions of a “secular” society are rather recent in their origin.
I haven’t “lost sight” of anything (you do assume a lot) …
I actually live in the 21st Century … I just hate living in the 1950’s with a bunch of fkn bible bashers and/or conservative pricks, who think their strange beliefs of control and power over as many people as possible, are justified by robbing as many people as they can, as quickly as they can and by any means possible … preferably in as
dodgycost effective way as possible (to themselves of course) … 99% being dog-botherers of one kind or another …007, can you have a petulantly pregnant cow?
Cheers Cabbages
talk about the old bait and switch 🙄
At the risk of shattering your delusions there is no logic in suggesting that the Iraq war was about oil because it would have been far cheaper in lives and treasure just to have bought the oil from Saddam.
.
Please explain because I am clearly suggesting that each individual can end their lives if they want (it ain’t rocket science)
I don’t argue that
I don’t make that argument either
If someone wants to die its not hard to do so.
Nor am I arguing that
reb
Well that depends very much on what aspect of different people you are wanting to be the same doesn’t it? are you and I equally skilled in all things? I bet that you could not weld steel to save your life and I bet that there are things that you do in your profession that I would be hopeless at. Yet I would not claim “inequality” about either aspect of our abilities.
No its the over-sensitive heterophobes who are full of angst and hatred and who want to use that anger and angst as a weapon against anyone who dares to suggest that the change to the nature of marriage in our society may not give their sexuality the affirmation that they so clearly desire.Even when that person otherwise both supports and endorses the validity of homosexuality as an aspect of humanity.
Well I think the way that you fly of the handle against anyone who dopes not march in time to your drum says otherwise.
Yep I like Stephen Fry as well, he is a cool guy who I doubt would abuse those don’t endorse gay marriage
toiletofremunerationunafflictedbypopularfables
Try at the beginning, we are all sitting comfortably
I only suggest the entirely innocuous notion that all participants should be consenting adults
Well given the way that you denounce those of us who are sceptical of the AGW proposition I don’t think your claim to be an agnostic is worth very much.
I spent the better part of the last fifty years arguing with people of faith but I had a personal epiphany about thirty years ago when I realised that what was truly important was not the nuances of doctrine or liturgy (or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin) but the consequences of that dodgy thinking. Thus if someone has a belief in some aspect of the supernatural and they cause no hurt to others in the process then who am I to judge them or berate them for their silly beliefs?
So is an unborn child a “person” and due the protections of our law against being murdered say the day before they are born?
My point is that its ethically dodgy to claim that until “birth” the unborn are not human beings as much as you or I am. No imagine that unborn child that you are so happy to see killed the day before it is born at the whim of its mother was the product of your clanging cahones would you be just as indifferent to its life?
Am I talking about prohibition of abortion? You can check both this thread and the many times that I have written about it here When it comes to the morality of killing the unborn I certainly do have an opinion that it is something that is contingent on a number of factors, the amount of gestation that has progressed is a big one. That said I hold this opinion and I have frequently argued for my position but that does not mean that I would want to impose it an anyone. Finally I agree that all individuals decide what they consider to be moral but that does not preclude others like me form disagreeing with their judgements
I don’t know you from a bar of soap but if you enunciate your positions with clarity and good humour then we can both benefit from the journey.
I don’t think that I was even talking about ideals
If a rubbish belief results in a good and caring individual who is a worthwhile member of society does the silliness of their beliefs really matter? If you think that they do then please tell us why.
Cheers Cabbages permalink
October 9, 2013 9:58 am
I get it now you use farming imagery because you are so in love with straw-man arguments!
.
Amusing that you should suggest this because may understanding is that the binary for “dead” would be “alive” however those with zombie thinking would disagree 😉
reb
TB Queensland
Tell that to your fellows who have been bagging me TB…
Yes I know its silly to believe in god, miracles or anything supernatural and I also know that lots of very nasty things have been done in the name of one God or another which brigs me to the real religious nutters of our age and that is those who follow the teachings of Islam about which I am far less sanguine than I am about most verities of Christianity.
Well you seem to be losing sight of the history of our society and the origins of our democracy are rooted in a time and society that took for granted the existence of the deity and notions of a “secular” society are rather recent in their origin.
I haven’t “lost sight” of anything (you do assume a lot) …
I actually live in the 21st Century … I just hate living in the 1950′s with a bunch of fkn bible bashers and/or conservative pricks, who think their strange beliefs of control and power over as many people as possible, are justified by robbing as many people as they can, as quickly as they can and by any means possible … preferably in as dodgy cost effective way as possible (to themselves of course) … 99% being dog-botherers of one kind or another …
007, can you have a petulantly pregnant cow?
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Amusing that you should suggest this because may understanding is that the binary for “dead” would be “alive” however those’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
.
A few months ago, l thought exactly the same,
however, howards re-heated undead have returned to power
Back on topic….
‘Greece will emerge from six years of recession next year, its draft 2014 budget projected on Monday, in one of the strongest signs yet that the country has left the worst of its crippling debt crisis behind.
‘The economy, which has shrunk about a quarter since its peak in 2007, will grow by 0.6pc next year thanks to a rebound in investment and exports including tourism, the budget predicted. The economy is set to contract by 4pc this year.’
UK Tele
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Any individual can commit suicide at their pleasure, however I have serious reservations about creating a situation where an organisation exists and profits from this.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
This is straight out of the Teabag handbook.
.
Piers says shit like this on insiders.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘commit suicide at their pleasure’ ‘ ‘ ‘
Using `pleasure` to describe voluntary euthanasia,
Like it`s a trip to dizney-land.
.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘serious reservations about creating a situation’ ‘ ‘ ‘
This is typical Teabag language, that fools only those who feed on their own fear. Stating buzz-words `grave` `concerns` `serious` `reservations` without an explainer, only fools those dullards that aren`t bright enough to realize Miranda is full of shit.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Greece will emerge from six years of recession next year’ ‘ ‘ ‘
sorry egg, no it won`t
@Iain,
I think I was quite specific in saying “equality” in the eyes of the law.
Marriage is first and foremost a legal contract.
Therefore eligibility should be available to consenting adults regardless of gender, race, or sexual orientation.
I’m still waiting for you to provide a rational argument as to why this shouldn’t be the case.
“sorry egg, no it won`t”
Agreed. 62% youth unemployment isn’t going to be addressed any time soon.
Reb
I have repeatedly enunciated why I think that there is no case for changing the definition of marriage, I am sad that you don’t see it the way that I do but I also respect your right to believe as you do. So in the spirit of civil debate lets just agree to disagree. I have made a point of not generally commenting on your posts here that cover the Marriage issue because I know how hard it is for you to accept opinions contrary to your own views on the subject.
I know how hard it is for you to accept opinions contrary to your own views on the subject.
LOL!
“I know how hard it is for you to accept opinions contrary to your own views on the subject.”
No, I just have no patience for bigots, fuckwits and pseudo-intellectuals who like to dress up their innate unenlightened prejudices in fanciful garb.
I have plenty of time for people who have an intelligent and rationale point of view that may be at odds with own.
From your comments (and link), you’re just not one of them.
“I know how hard it is for you to accept opinions contrary to your own views on the subject.”
Actually, I’m just waiting for you to provide a rational argument as to why you think marriage equality is somehow unjust or unlawful, but you are yet to do so..
So far, all you’ve done is emphasise that you “just don’t like it..”
And as such I return to my earlier response – “well so fucking what?”
No, I just have no patience for bigots, fuckwits (sic – Fuckwit™ – with permission*) and pseudo-intellectuals who like to dress up their innate unenlightened prejudices in fanciful garb.
LOL!
*TB Queensland Enterprises
Two large popcorns please and an Old Peculiar …
I thought you already had “old peculiar” covered TB… 😉
Don’t you fkn start …
😆
Just changing the subject …
… if you were a cricket administrator, would you be looking at betting agencies and players?
Disclaimer: Cricket? Blerrrrrrr ….
“I bet that you could not weld steel to save your life.”
This is true. How have I survived this long?
Oops … side tracked by my 10 yo planning his movie making team at school …
http://www.news.com.au/sport/cricket/south-australia-paceman-kane-richardson-in-shocking-run-out-miss-as-redbacks-fall-to-tigers/story-fneba9wb-1226735645671
Iain suggests that the question of marriage equality involves a debate, to be won or lost.
I don’t think it is anything of the sort. The issue reflects a social orientation, it is simply a question of whether people prefer a community that is inclusive, or one that institutionalises discrimination and marginalisation.
.
“if you were a cricket administrator”
What even is that…?
This is true. How have I survived this long?
WoW! What a skill! And really knowledge building …
What even is that…?
Don’t show yer iggorance, sreb … work it out … cricket = a game (sort of) … administrator = one who administrates it … 🙄
Well said ToM..
Iain yearns for a return to the divisive years of the Howard era… But fortunately society is more enlightened these days..
Yes TB! If only I had taken up “welding studies” at university rather than Business Administration and Psychology my life could have been so much more meaningful and profitable too….
I guess I drew the short straw *sigh*
The benfits of a trade AND Uni education for me, sreb, I can weld … 🙂
Well that’s all weld and good TB 😉
Meanwhile, I can tell you whether welding has become an unhealthy obsession or a substitute for something that’s missing in your life …
You know, like Iain and “gainful employment”
Oh how we laughed… ! 😆 😆 😆
“Well given the way that you denounce those of us who are sceptical of the AGW proposition I don’t think your claim to be an agnostic is worth very much.”
Duuuh, Inane…where have I ‘denounced those of you who are sceptical of AGW’? I haven’t. All I’ve done is draw parallels between the selective scepticism which I detect amongst conservatives (as I said, particularly social conservatives , not particularly you, the individual). The parallels are pertinent & valid. But conservatives don’t like to agitate their fable worshiping brethren. I get that.I did mention that I’m not sold on AGW entirely myself. More importantly, I’m supremely cynical about the political response to it, from both sides.
Your incorrectly pigeonholing me, again.
“Try at the beginning, we are all sitting comfortably ”
Inverse condescension. How quaint.
“I only suggest the entirely innocuous notion that all participants should be consenting adults’
As do I.
“who am I to judge them or berate them for their silly beliefs? ”
Well, as a fellow atheist, you seem to share the same opinion as me. The exception being that I see no reason to walk on eggshells around the legitimacy of religious beliefs. A spade is a spade.
I went to a Catholic boarding school, as a non-Catholic. I readily agree that belief in rubbish doesn’t equate to the religious being terrible people, in all cases. In fact, most of them are just like me (self deceptions about mythical dogma aside). That still doesn’t make the rubbish any less bogus.
Religion should be private, with no influence upon the rest of the population whatsoever. Until it is, I will continue to propagate derision of it.
“No imagine that unborn child that you are so happy to see killed the day before it is born at the whim of its mother was the product of your clanging cahones would you be just as indifferent to its life?”
It’s COJONES .
What a pile of crap. Pure hyperbole. I am ” happy to see an unborn child killed the day before it is born” am I? 🙄
Obviously we differ on ‘ethics’. As I said earlier, I have been in touch with the mortality of living things since my childhood. I am pragmatic.
I reiterate, imo it’s not a person.
I see no virtue in forcing a child upon parents who aren’t ready for it or don’t want it, period.
You make it sound like my position is…”tear the babies from their mother’s womb & dash their heads against a rock”. 🙄
Do you extend such sympathy towards animals? If so, how the fuck do you rationalise the way of the world?
“When it comes to the morality of killing the unborn I certainly do have an opinion that it is something that is contingent on a number of factors, the amount of gestation that has progressed is a big one. That said I hold this opinion and I have frequently argued for my position but that does not mean that I would want to impose it an anyone. Finally I agree that all individuals decide what they consider to be moral but that does not preclude others like me form disagreeing with their judgements ”
I am very comfortable with that statement & I didn’t mean to infer that you were trying to prohibit. My point was a broader poke at social conservatism; apparently, poorly composed.
I only have a problem with those who seek to legislate against the free will of individuals in regard to their own persons.
“I don’t think that I was even talking about ideals ”
I can read between the lines…this is your comment…initially quoting mine…
“Flexible ‘ideals’ which are applied when convenient & just as easily ignored when not.
In a nutshell you have enunciated the problem with your own style of argument.”
Hmmmmmmm.
“If a rubbish belief results in a good and caring individual who is a worthwhile member of society does the silliness of their beliefs really matter?”
Only when those beliefs form the doctrine of a collective whom seeks to impose its clearly false worldview upon the more rational members of society.
“A few months ago, l thought exactly the same,
however, howards re-heated undead have returned to power”
touché!
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘I have made a point of not generally commenting on your posts here that cover the Marriage issue because I know how hard it is for you to accept opinions contrary to your own views’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ” ‘ ‘
.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘accept opinions contrary’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
.
l`m not sure that when your so-called `opinion` matches largely identical to well-worn Teabag mantra, as espoused by Limited-News trollumnists, that you can really claim you are offering an opinion, really it is regurgitating a recital.
What my nigga, YomM, said @ 7: 58!
Y’know, Iain, YomM is widely (wrongly) regarded as a rightwing troll in parts of the internet with heads up arses.? 😉
If I could weld, I’d put all of my creative endeavours into making a 30ft tall pisschrist urinal sculpture.
I do appreciate that Iain actually attempts to engage.
I think that butting up against conflicting opinions is a potential learning experience.
He also bothers to try & flesh out his responses, as contrary as I may find them.
It’s not every day that you get to argue with someone who has their own wiki page… 😆
I should note that, we do hold some common ground. As I do with most humans.
Good for you Boss…
I have nothing in common with Iain.
But I don’t feel a compulsion to “ban” him simply because of that..
What would that say about me?
Although I understand that others are less tolerant…
Anyhoo….
I have been reading this issue on gay marriage, here is one of the reasons why Iain Hall is against Gay marriage..
“The reality is that ” gay marriage” is just window dressing rather than the realm issue. The real issue is that Homosexuals want social affirmation of their sexual orientation and brow-beating the heterosexual majority into allowing them to call their unions marriage will not actually achieve that.
For as long as homosexuality is inextricably linked to promiscuity and anonymous sex it will never have the respectability and acceptance that so many activists say that they want it to have.”
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/2010/07/21/bill-muehlenbergs-evidence-free-guide-to-gay-marriage/#comment-31643
Now from that, I would call Iain Hall a racist and a bigot.
‘I think that butting up against conflicting opinions is a potential learning experience.’
That’s true.
I only mean the fringe stuff, reb.
Like…” I agree that all individuals decide what they consider to be moral but that does not preclude others like me form disagreeing with their judgements”.
Most of his expressed views are repugnant to me. 😉
“as long as homosexuality is inextricably linked to promiscuity and anonymous sex”
WTF?
Says who?!…apart from Iain, apparently. 😯
Obsessed with the reproductive organs of others much? 🙄
“Now from that, I would call Iain Hall a racist and a bigot.”
AGREED PAUL!
You should read the whole article from the link, you will get a good understanding about Hall on homosexuality.
He does not understand it at all.
“He does not understand it at all.
Quelle surprise!
and `reciting` from teh-oz
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/heterosexual-marriage-is-societys-bedrock/story-e6frg6zo-1225894778178
.
which is an impoverished source of information at the best of times
.
.
the main problem teh-oz and theuseful idiots that mimic their bullshit is, in a so-called free, so-called democracy, there really is a burden on those wishing to impinge on, or keep disenfranchised, the rights and `personal-Liberty`s of others.
.
The Teabags have not made the case.
From Paul’s link, and quoting Iain Hall:
“For as long as homosexuality is inextricably linked to promiscuity and anonymous sex it will never have the respectability and acceptance that so many activists say that they want it to have.”
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘homosexuality is inextricably linked to promiscuity’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
.
then lain should explain his experience of homosexual promiscuity, as he claims expertise in this area,
.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘and anonymous sex’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
and this needs explaining too
.
.
and this sad fcuker from teh-oz
Bill Muehlenberg is secretary of the Family Council of Victoria
needs to explain his homosexual adventures and expertise too
Iain is confused, the broader community is promiscuous and marriage may appear momentarily respectable, but half end in divorce.
A majority of Australians are not opposed to gay marriage, so in the public mind its a fait accompli.
“the broader community is promiscuous”
OMG Seriously….??!!
Has anyone told Iain…??
Where is his (feigned) outrage over hetro people having casual sex….???
Here is another quote from Hall
“My position is simply this: Marriage was created as and intended to be a heterosexual institution, It has the primary purpose of providing the foundation for the nurture of children and the continuation of the species. ”
So Hall thinks marriage is just for the continuation of the human race, forget everything else.
OMG! childless married couples are abomination! 😯
Not sure where I fit in, given that I have a 13yo child , am unmarried & have been cohabitating with my child’s mother for near on 15 years? So confusing, all of this disparate violation of the intended path of marriage.
Can you shed some light on my circumstances for me, Iain?
and another
“Just because you think that a gay relationship is “like ” a marriage does not make it one just as a replica Lamborghini made out of an old VW is not the real thing no matter how much it may look like one. That said I would be more than happy to acknowledge the right of the owner of a replica Lamborghini to drive as he pleases as long as he does not demand that it be registered as a Lamborghini”
You know he has lost it when he brings in the car comparison.
“You know he has lost it when he brings in the car comparison.”
😆
“Now from that, I would call Iain Hall a racist and a bigot.”
Racist? Iain has many issues, but the passage you referred to doesn’t appear to support a conclusion that he is racist.
The reason he is wrong is that he doesn’t understand the idea of secular democracy whereby all citizens are treated equally irrespective of their individual differences, in this case, gender. The role of government is to maximise individual liberty, limiting only where it impinges on the liberty of others.
The reason for all of the vehemence is probably twofold:
1. A belief that more people will catch the gay disease (as though anyone, gay or straight has a choice about who they love); and
2. A fear that if same-sex marriage is recognised at law people like Iain will find it harder to get away with their bigotry. If two people fall in love it really is not anyone else’s business.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Racist? Iain has many issues, but the passage you referred to doesn’t appear to support a conclusion that he is racist.
The reason he is wrong is that he doesn’t understand the idea of secular democracy whereby all citizens are treated equally irrespective of their individual differences’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
‘
As a recovering bigot myself, l realized several years ago, that feeding from the troughs of bile served-up by Limited-News specifically, and troll-media generally, restricts a persons ability to accept `other` or different perspectives, as the bile often re-enforces prejudice. l don`t think it is correct to `hammer` lain who is largely regurgitating Limited-News `content`. (you may recall Piers on insiders regurgitating tim-is-gay) lt is really a matter of stopping the bile being produced at the source, as far as l can see, and the hammering of lain won`t change the main game, as Limited-News feeds bile to 1000s of folks like lain every day. Really the gay-community needs to bring down the correct trollumnist-hate-source, as `white`aboriginals did with bolt.
If two people fall in love it really is not anyone else’s business.
A very coherent comment, sb …
… alas, the last sentence of you statement while very true is, unfortunately, not experienced by many couples, no matter what gender or relationship …
ACT Attorney-General Simon Corbell has confirmed the federal government will challenge the territory’s same-sex marriage laws in the High Court as soon as they are enacted.
Mr Corbell said he and Chief Minister Katy Gallagher were informed of the legal challenge in a conversation with federal Attorney-General George Brandis last night.
Read more: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/samesex-marriage-law-high-court-challenge-confirmed-20131010-2vaqe.html#ixzz2hIH8egRD
Not sure why Brandis is bothering, the Taswegians will be up and running soon enough and they need more tourists.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2013/10/10/11/41/tasmania-can-pass-gay-marriage-law-report
*brandis-corbell*
l can`t say l`m surprised reb,
the undead said they would challenge a while back,
but with the budget-economy-emergency they have been screaming about for 3-years, can they really afford to distract themselves with other peoples love-lives
This is what TA said on election night
“Today the people of Australia have declared that the right to govern this country does not belong to Mr Rudd or to me or to his party or to ours but it belongs to you, the people of Australia,” he said.”
Maybe TA should listen, as the majority of Australians want marriage equality.
so paul, you believe mr-rabbit 🙄
No, TA is the biggest liar in politics.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘A state parliament can legislate for same-sex marriage, we know that from this report,” Australian Marriage Equality chair and independent NSW MP Alex Greenwich told reporters in Hobart.
“What happens in the High Court is a decision for the High Court.
“As state parliamentarians, our role is to legislate for the people who elect us, and what they want in NSW and what they want in Tasmania is same-sex marriage.” ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2013/10/10/11/41/tasmania-can-pass-gay-marriage-law-report
.
nice find egg,
all the fcukers need now is the balls to do the correct thing
Getting back to recreational drugs …
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/oct/08/the-spin-cannabis-and-cricket
Getting back to recreational drugs …
No such thing, egg … just another urban meth (sorry couldn’t help myself) 😛
I thought it was a good yarn.
How talentless Robber Barons still operate …
http://www.news.com.au/business/companies/new-book-reveals-the-story-behind-how-twitter-was-founded/story-fnda1bsz-1226736871280
“It would be better for all concerned if the ACT government waited for a short time until the validity of the proposed law was determined by the high court,” Brandis said.
His ACT counterpart, Simon Corbell, said the territory had “declined to do that” because there was strong support for the law.
“There are many same-sex couples both in the ACT and in other parts of the country who support the law and who want … to have the opportunity to be married, even though they understand that the Commonwealth has announced that it will challenge the law,” he said.
Guardian
reb & Paul
The prerequisite for bigotry is a consistent level of hatred and I defy you both to prove that I hate anyone
paul
Of course I understand it, I also endorse the right of everyone,including you, to copulate with whom so ever they chose as long as the coupling is entirely consensual. That does not mean that I have to agree with every social change that homosexuals desire. As for your charge of “Racism” :roll:there is not even any mention of questions of race in that thread so your claim is yet another total logic fail from you.
reb
I suspect that one has to be a total “fag hag” in your eyes to demonstrate “understanding” homosexuality. I wonder just how much you understand the “straight” world Reb because I don’t see any evidence at all that you get what it is to be a breeder to be concerned about the society that we leave to our children.
Cheers Cabbages
And where do you get your information? from the Guardian, the ABC and Fairfax?
reb
When it comes to the public image of the proclivity can you prove that I am wrong? or that what I am saying is actually hateful?
Cheers Cabbages
In my younger days when I was a great deal prettier I was propositioned by gay men plenty of times and on each time I politely declined the offers.
.
.
and this sad fcuker from teh-oz
Bill Muehlenberg is secretary of the Family Council of Victoria
needs to explain his homosexual adventures and expertise too
egg
It ain’t over till the fat dyke sings 😉
reb
I have said repeatedly that I don’t think that promiscuity is a good thing in any circumstance, I am also a total realist who understands that we all have the same biological imperative to mate when ever the opportunity presents itself.
paul
I don’t say that at all, there is no claim of there being just one purpose for marriage but child rearing is the PRIMARY purpose of the institution.
Good on you for sticking with the mother of your child! I won’t even try to pigeon hole you as you seem to want but your circumstance does suggest that successful pair-bonding is not at all about either the labels that you use to describe them or them being formalised by the state. In fact I would suggest that your example is one that shows precisely why Gay couples do not need any changes to the marriage act no mttter how much some one like Reb may desire it.
paul
Clearly you don’t understand the concept of an analogy
Splatterbottom
It certainly doesn’t even consider the issue of race and none of my comments do either
Are you suggesting that “gender” is interchangeable with “sexuality” now SB?
While I broadly accept the notion that none of us chose who we fall in love with I must take issue with your suggestion that everyone is immutably Gay or straight. Its may understanding that sexuality is really more of a spectrum with a fair amount of grey where individuals can chose which way they swing.
I expect better from you than this nonsense SB what part of my often repeated endorsement of all individuals rights to love who ever they please shows hatred for homosexuals?
Cheers Cabbages
‘
If you think that you are “in recovery” you are sadly and totally mistaken. If we just take your claims about News at face value I would suggest that all you have done is to change your allegiance to the extreme left wing media. You are still a slave incapable of original thought.
Thankfully the days of the “politically correct” prosecuting people for “thought crime” are coming to an end I for one look forward to the Abbott government changing the act under which Bolt was taken to court.
Christ!
No he is not Christ, he is just a bigot.
Unhinged!
Hall, I understand the analogy, you have completely lost it. you always bring cars into every post that when the argument goes against you, you have a history of it.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Thankfully the days of the “politically-correct”WRONG-1 prosecuting people for “thought-crime”WRONG-2 are coming to an end I for one look forward to the Abbott government changing the act under which Bolt was taken to court.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
.
1-racial discrimination (act)
2-continual libel/hate-speech/wrong-data aimed at a minority, from a major (news.?) corporation
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘And where do you get your information?’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
Knowledge.
Burden of proof is on those, (usually_govt) who wish to impinge on others personal rights/Liberty`s. Democracy-101.
.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘the ABC and Fairfax?’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
Hell no. These fcukers are trying their best to be as knowledge-free as Limited-News is.
.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘from the Guardian,’ ‘ ‘ undecided so far
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘If we just take your claims about News at face value’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
Hell don`t do that.
*Levison,
*Finkelstein,
*rda-court/bolt
.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘I would suggest that all you have done is to change your allegiance to the extreme left wing media.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ WRONG.
No allegiance to any party or corporation, including media.
.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘You are still a slave incapable of original thought.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ *pot-kettle-anyone* *pot-kettle*
Just because you think that a gay relationship is “like ” a marriage does not make it one just as a replica Lamborghini made out of an old VW is not the real thing no matter how much it may look like one…
Gays are only replicas of human beings? Interesting.
Check out this photo for cringeworthy!
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/oct/11/act-vows-to-fight-for-gay-marriage
The ernies:
http://thehoopla.com.au/boo-hiss-award-winning-sexist-clangers/
Iain: “I must take issue with your suggestion that everyone is immutably Gay or straight.”
Iain, that is not what I’m suggesting. What I am suggesting is that peoples’ orientation (whatever it is and however complex it is) will not change according to whether we have marriage equality or not. Personally I identify as an omnisexual.
“Are you suggesting that “gender” is interchangeable with “sexuality”
Not at all. I am suggesting that the current prohibition on same sex marriage is about gender – we are not permitted to marry people of the opposite gender. You could also argue that it is about sexuality in a sense, but at no point I am I arguing that gender and sexuality are interchangeable.
I don’t know why you would jump to either of those unwarranted conclusions. Maybe if you think a little bit more you will have less verbal diarrhea.
Hall, is this your attempt at humor, if it is, then this is why you are a bigot
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘George Brandis, has confirmed the government will challenge the laws in the high court, warning that same-sex couples could be distressed if their marriages were later invalidated.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/oct/11/act-vows-to-fight-for-gay-marriage
.
some-how, l just don`t believe this hairless maggot when he says,
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘that same-sex couples could be distressed’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ #brandisCare
The Daily Terror is running a story on a transgender couple, because its newsworthy.
http://thehoopla.com.au/boo-hiss-award-winning-sexist-clangers/
.
it is quite an ugly list when it is all gathered in one place,
did you notice that the vast majority of the misogyny was media-politic generated, you know, those that think they are better than the rest of us, but aint
The Tasmanians are top class poppy growers and want to expand into the top end.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-11/opium-poppies-in-the-northern-territory/5015606
As a former cook n dealer 15 years ago or so this nothing new in USA for sure even with Annie made meth in 90s-earliy 2000s u add more batt acid to mix even one extra strip it doubled cooks quantity for more money but quality went to bad halusanation see can’t spell lol and aggression so as the ingredients got changed by government to or extra add by them to make chemical unused able the cookers found other ways to make like shake n bake it’s less than a 3hr mix with high results or there baths alt they r calling it here its wat grease basically same crappy shit high witch make a sweet person normally n during first few days of detox has smashed phone glass candle over my head and a punched got her calmed down to finish detox before I got sweet girl back assumed she hurt me we live now a normal clean life because our personalities are not worth it is rather be me not crazed unknowning zombie response attacking the ones that are in love with. Everyone’s like stop trying to be wat ur not than does drugs that makes u the same thing crazy zombie response attacking anyone around u n I don’t want this our kids or anyone!! But every chemical reaction u make of it can be made easier than the other but worse than the next in changing the way it will effect your personality. But all bad n all starts with Swiss sianctist pre ww2 than Japan formed amphetamine to meth water soluble for kamikaze pilot sent out than USA raided bunker with mix n instruction was to be locked up n kept from people knowing but got leak when USA look for medical application s for drs n it used in Vietnam to keep soldiers to keep alert like a flood went to public not being known as epidemic until pill form went to Poor’s man coke in 70-80s n 90 or so boom we got the atom bomb from Japan of a drug to the usa like tsunami disaster who got last laugh in ww2 for bombing there is lasting longer in decades at more n more being subject to it each day n getting worse!! Go usa government!! For both bombing countries! No disrespect to anyone here just fact n my freedom of speech thank you
Gee thanks Bill nie, I’ll keep all that in mind next time I see my dealer