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It’s Over – Holden Quits Australia!

December 11, 2013

hiockey

Victorian State Premier Denis Napthine has told state Parliament that Holden is leaving Australia.

Holden will cease manufacturing in Australia from 2017.

Mr Napthine said that it was “an irreversible decision made in Detroit.”

The announcement will send shockwaves across Australia with thousands of jobs to be lost particularly in South Australia and Victoria.

Workers were told of the details at Holden’s Port Melbourne facility at 2.00pm today.

Holden cited the high Australian dollar as a key motivating factor in the decision.

Funnily enough they didn’t mention the carbon tax, but Christopher Pyne’s probably already working on that as we speak.

Acting PM Warren Truss delivered some sort of  Holden eulogy following the announcement.

The announcement from Holden can be found here. 

The announcements comes just 24 hours after Joe Hockey issued a demand for Holden to “come clean” on its plans in Parliament…

HOCKEY DARES HOLDEN TO LEAVE AUSTRALIA!

“We want them to be honest about it, we want them to be fair dinkum,” he said.

“Because if I was running a business and I was committed to that business in Australia, I wouldn’t be saying that I haven’t made any decision about its future.

“Either you’re here or you’re not.”

It seems that Joe Hockey has been provided with the response he demanded.

 

 

 

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390 Comments leave one →
  1. December 11, 2013 2:30 pm

    But I thought that now that the “adults are in charge,” Australia is “open for business.” 🙄

  2. December 11, 2013 2:44 pm

    Over 30,000 jobs lost, a major manufacturer closes its doors, wow, that’s gotta be good for business and the economy, way to go Eleventy! What a fucking pair of human dynamo’s you and Peta’s Puppet are!

  3. December 11, 2013 2:44 pm

    Merry Xmas to the blubbers…not so merry for the employees.

  4. December 11, 2013 2:45 pm

    The loss of the jobs will be felt.

  5. IPA permalink
    December 11, 2013 3:01 pm

    Who or what are “the blubbers”?

  6. December 11, 2013 3:08 pm

    So Hockey’s hardball tactics really paid dividends huh?

    This govt will go down as one of the most incompetent in history – and we’re only three months in!

  7. December 11, 2013 3:10 pm

    Use your imagination.

  8. IPA permalink
    December 11, 2013 3:10 pm

    Ford closes (under Labor), nobody’s fault. Inevitable. Holden closes (under Coalition), Hockey’s fault. He hurt their feelings.

  9. December 11, 2013 3:11 pm
  10. December 11, 2013 3:11 pm

    hooray! 1000’s of people will be out of work!

  11. December 11, 2013 3:13 pm

    It was all ‘inevitable’ under any government…but it’s not all silver lined clouds & money back into taxpayer pockets.

  12. December 11, 2013 3:14 pm

    I’m enjoying the Coalition’s brand soiling, whether they are at fault or not.

    They do a great impersonation of self saboteurs.

  13. December 11, 2013 3:15 pm

    Rarely has there been the sort of co-ordinated political broadside from a government against a major business – an iconic one at that – of the sort that exploded from federal Parliament against General Motors and the Holden boss Mike Devereux.

    And rarely has a federal Treasurer delivered such an unrestrained, bare-fisted belting of a corporation and its management of the kind that Joe Hockey dished out.

    If GM has decided to cease motor-vehicle production in Australia as the speculation suggests, the Abbott government is trying to get in before the announcement to try to ensure that the blame falls anywhere but on itself.

    GM, Devereux, the trade unions and the opposition (for its failings in government) are all being set up as the targets for blame.

    Hockey’s message to GM was brutal: if you are going, go now – and he said it in a way which sounded like “good riddance to you”.

    http://www.afr.com/p/national/hockey_grabs_for_holden_steering_lS5xvQIg68R1umvcThmOKO

  14. egg permalink
    December 11, 2013 3:17 pm

    It was decided in Detroit and Beijing, the ugly face of kapitalism.

  15. December 11, 2013 3:18 pm

    “I’m enjoying the Coalition’s brand soiling, whether they are at fault or not.”

    It’s even more amusing here, to witness the usual suspects attempt to defend and deflect away from this government’s chaotic train wreck…!!

    Oh, look over there, a furry thing….

  16. December 11, 2013 3:30 pm

    Pretty sure that, hypothetically speaking, had the former government gone in like gung-ho Joe, virtually daring GM to stay, the Coalition would have been beside themselves with a cacophony of pro-business screeching & opportunist political attack.

    I feel for the pawns in this ideological pissing contest, because I’ve lived as one before.

  17. December 11, 2013 3:30 pm

    Ford closes (under Labor), nobody’s fault. Inevitable. Holden closes (under Coalition), Hockey’s fault.”

    I don’t recall the Treasurer at the time actually going to the extent of goading Ford to leave Australia at the time…

  18. egg permalink
    December 11, 2013 3:34 pm

    The Australian dollar has remained too high and the Australian population is too small to sustain the market.

    GM has decided to relocate to South America and China, smart move.

    Our government is not responsible for this free market decision.

  19. IPA permalink
    December 11, 2013 3:34 pm

    Holden had already made its decision, as today’s events show. The pissing contest was whether Holden could hold off making the announcement long enough that it could blame the government. Hockey and Co knew this, and forced Holden’s hand.

    (Who honestly believes Holden were undecided yesterday and made their decision today because the government “goad(ed)” them to leave?)

  20. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 11, 2013 3:48 pm

    GM wouldn’t make the announcement in a tantrum because Hockey was rude or difficult. The Board of GM would see the Australian market as a similar size to suburban Los Angeles. Does LA have an auto industry dedicated to the city?

    Mind you, I think the government should have tried harder to keep it here, even if that meant extra cash/subsidies.

    Removing the technical option from the Australian workforce isn’t good policy.

  21. December 11, 2013 3:54 pm

    “Who honestly believes Holden were undecided yesterday and made their decision today because the government “goad(ed)” them to leave?)”

    Who believes that daring them to leave is responsible behaviour from the Treasurer?

    You know, the Treasurer that gloated that now that “the adults are in charge, Australia is open for business…??”

  22. IPA permalink
    December 11, 2013 4:01 pm

    But did he double-dare them? Didn’t think so.

  23. December 11, 2013 4:05 pm

    Just a quick question to all of those where who are being so quick to blame the coalition, do any of you own or drive a Holden? If the answer is “no” then your buying choices have contributed more to this decision than anything that Tony Abbott or his government have done.

  24. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 11, 2013 4:26 pm

    I have a Holden that I drive to clients sites, so that I don’t look overpaid.

    I have a nice Mercedes that use for everything else.

  25. December 11, 2013 4:38 pm

    This Govrnment are true diplomats 🙄

    Piss funny Tom..I love it. I have two mates that do exsactly the same thing…

    Inane gets in noddy car and drives into the sunset to pick up his welfare payment

  26. IPA permalink
    December 11, 2013 4:42 pm

    “And the good news is that the future of General Motors is now secure in this country for the next decade.” ~ Julia Gillard, last year, announcing more handouts to Holden.

    “This decision reflects the perfect storm of negative influences the automotive industry faces in the country, including the sustained strength of the Australian dollar, high cost of production, small domestic market and arguably the most competitive and fragmented auto market in the world.” ~ Holden Chairman and CEO Dan Akerson, today, announcing Holden will cease manufacturing in 2017.

  27. egg permalink
    December 11, 2013 4:47 pm

    Dan’s spot on.

  28. December 11, 2013 4:48 pm

    Quite frankly, rusted-on`s,

    blaming either side of politics is pure bullshit. lf any of`ya knew any `auto`industry history, the writing has been on the wall for decades, going back to when Smith run GM in Detroit. Smith started shutting down canada and teh-usa plants. Over here in Aust, a permanent `pause` was applied to about half-a-dozen `new`plant-sites. They never happened.

  29. December 11, 2013 4:57 pm

    Roger Smith sent the GM auto-plants to Mexico for `cheap`labor. Mexico will be coming to a close in the not too distant future, the greedy Mexican auto-workers now demand the excessive pay-rate of 2.50-us$/hour, this will never do, China 10cents/hour.

    #Yay for Teabag exploitation

  30. December 11, 2013 4:58 pm

    Blame propping up the corpoate multinational that is in taters in its own countrey, in the wasteland of detroit, and in the pocket of the Aussie taxpayer with some bullshit nationalistic advertising campain…fuck off holden..lets retool and retrain..bash out solar panels and and break this bullshit energy compianies lie about base load power…. chuck clever countrey..fuck me Abbott is the PM.

  31. December 11, 2013 5:01 pm

    Ricky Pann, Roflmao, mate you made my day! 🙂

  32. TB Queensland permalink
    December 11, 2013 5:05 pm

    … announcing Holden will cease manufacturing in 2017.

    Or sooner, sales will plummet … and if you don’t drive a Holden I congratulate you … sound like trucks, drive like trucks and look like ….

    Holden and Ford lost the plot decades ago, both here in the US, UK and EU … if you don’t keep up – you’ll fall behind … 😆 😆 😆 😆

    Either we live in a market economy or not … this half way split shit, pisses me right off …

    What Australia needs is a strategy to research, develop and sell what we are good at as a nation – not what other nations want us to do here … just to provide employment …

    Our wine industry did it (too well, actually) … our education and training industry did it … we have mining expertise all over the world (in the doldrums at the moment but it is slowly {very} picking up) …

    We are the Clever Country we just need to realise it … and get on with it …

  33. TB Queensland permalink
    December 11, 2013 5:11 pm

    Looks like a job for>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    CLIVEY PALMER!

    In every crisis a man steps up and takes it on and that man today is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    GO CLIVEY!

  34. December 11, 2013 5:26 pm

    “do any of you own or drive a Holden?”

    Do you? Or do you just drive that fkn ridiculous noddy car you built with our Centrelink money…..??

  35. December 11, 2013 5:27 pm

    Hey Tom I hear you mate but..it isn’t too clever to do all the Rand D only to have the innovation go OS due to inept local practices and the clinging to old technology till it falls over.

    Design cars ..yes.. Make cars..FFS, how many times can you defribulate an industry that fluxuates with the dollar and has a no sustainable margin? You may well laugh at turning out Solar panels in the vacant plants, however at least the flow on effect would have a direct economic, environmental and social benefit to Australia. Unlike Hold on finally done.

    Wake up Australia

  36. December 11, 2013 5:32 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘do any of you own or drive a Holden?’ ‘ ‘ ‘ The cheapest old clankers we have meant somebody long before us sent profits to Tokyo, not Detroit.
    .
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘We are the Clever Country’ ‘ ‘ ‘ Pigs Arse. Lucky at best. We don`t value add, just flog-off raw produce, and our glorified dirt delivery service.

  37. December 11, 2013 5:37 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Removing the technical option from the Australian workforce isn’t good policy.’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    Too Late. lt`s been going for decades too.

  38. egg permalink
    December 11, 2013 5:41 pm

    ‘lets retool and retrain..bash out’ bullet trains.

  39. December 11, 2013 5:56 pm

    Better Margins Egg.. We already have a industry..

  40. December 11, 2013 6:00 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘bash out’ bullet trains’ ‘ ‘ ‘

    Hey Dumpty, did you see the TV news on trains this week.?

    Australian cities got rid of their blue and red-rattlers and up-graded years ago, coz they were full of asbestos. Anyway, they open up some of these `modern` trains to do some repairs, hey-presto, full of asbestos, China did a switch-a-roo.

    Out-sourcing. lt just keeps taking/giving. 😆

  41. December 11, 2013 6:34 pm

    >>> 2900 <<<<
    Holden workers 2900, sbs-news TV.

  42. Dianne permalink
    December 11, 2013 7:01 pm

    The govt got the outcome they wanted but they won’t own it.

    A grown-up govt would be talking to the nation now about an industry plan to deal with the social and economic upheaval which will result from the disappearance of thousands of jobs.

    You would think that a party which has been hell bent on refusing to give Holden any more money would have devised such a plan by now.

    Instead all I have heard is the boring, pointless, repetitious, banal blame game: ALP-hopeless-carbon-tax-bad.

    Over and over and over.

  43. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 11, 2013 7:06 pm

    It seems that the government was aware that the decision had been made, and didn’t want to have the announcement delayed and then blamed on the Productivity Commission report.

  44. December 11, 2013 7:27 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘It seems that the government was aware’ ‘ ‘ ‘

    That would be a first for the teabags,
    they usually prefer denial, lies and manouvering as their standard mode of operation, out-breaks of truth or honesty will do them the world of good. The other lot could learn a lesson here.

  45. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 11, 2013 7:34 pm

    Hi Dianne, you should comment more often!

  46. Dianne permalink
    December 11, 2013 7:35 pm

    George Megaloginis tweeted that the top end of town is gob-smacked that the Treasurer would yell at Holden and that the govt is not what they expected.

    Well! What were they expecting?

    I can’t add up but I could see this govt coming a mile off. It is a No Surprise Party for me.

    They will have to get the pamphlet out again and wave it around a few times.

  47. Dianne permalink
    December 11, 2013 7:36 pm

    Hi Tom. Everyone else in real life wishes I would shut up. But thanks. Very busy.

  48. TB Queensland permalink
    December 11, 2013 7:40 pm

    LOL! @ TS …

    ================

    G’day Di, noice to see you back!

    The Carbon Tax is resposible for a 13.5% rise in power bills in Queensland too … bet it won’t drop if its removed … 🙄

    ================

    In 1979, after 16 years, I left my first employer and the Nissan product. Even then we were receiving parts in CBU vehicles manufactured in Brazil.

    We cannot sustain vehicle manufacturing in this country … its a ridiculous concept …

  49. TB Queensland permalink
    December 11, 2013 7:41 pm

    Correction: My first job was as an apprentice welder – lasted five months … 🙂

  50. December 11, 2013 7:54 pm

    Mr-Rabbit has said holden leaving is `sad` but `not-surprising` in parliament (live) abc

  51. egg permalink
    December 11, 2013 7:59 pm

    ‘bet it won’t drop if its removed … ‘

    I disagree.

  52. December 11, 2013 8:00 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘the top end of town is gob-smacked that the Treasurer would yell at Holden and that the govt is not what they expected.’ ‘ ‘ ‘

    Big-Biz aint used to the teabags sayin `no` to`em Dianne,
    (good to see you) 🙂

    l suspect Toyota will be tryin it on for `hand-outs` soon too. Mr-Eleventy will have to yell at them too.

  53. egg permalink
    December 11, 2013 8:00 pm

    Hi Di

  54. December 11, 2013 8:03 pm

    “Hi Dianne, you should comment more often!”

    HEAR HEAR!

  55. December 11, 2013 8:06 pm

    “bet it won’t drop if its removed …”

    I 2nd that.

    It was very ‘well hidden’ despite being blamed (by certain sections with self interest in mind) for just about every price rise on anything since its inception.

    The energy providers are too canny by far to end up giving back anything but a trifling amount. Reasons will be found to keep prices at or near current costs. Mark my words. Consumers get it in the neck again; that’s what consumers are for, apparently.

  56. Dianne permalink
    December 11, 2013 8:12 pm

    Well thank you gentlemen. (I am now making a low sweeping curtsy.)

  57. December 11, 2013 8:20 pm

    It’s nice to see you back Dianne… 🙂

  58. egg permalink
    December 11, 2013 8:40 pm

    ‘The energy providers are too canny by far to end up giving back anything but a trifling amount.’

    In that eventuality the monk is a oncer.

  59. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 11, 2013 8:56 pm

    Found this on Bolt. Julia Gillard as PM made this statement just last year.

    And the good news is that the future of General Motors is now secure in this country for the next decade.

    Holden will be here in Australia producing cars for at least the next 10 years. That’s great news. And it’s as a result of a more than $1 billion co-investment between the Federal Government, the South Australian Government, the Victorian Government and of course Holden, which is investing strongly in the future of manufacturing Holden cars here in Australia”

    So what has changed to stop Holden making cars since our previous PM (Gillard) said they would be making cars for the next 10 years??

  60. TB Queensland permalink
    December 11, 2013 9:04 pm

    So what has changed to stop Holden making cars since our previous PM (Gillard) said they would be making cars for the next 10 years??

    Tony Abbott & The Acolytes … now playing in Canberra … 🙄

  61. December 11, 2013 9:05 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Found this on Bolt. Julia Gillard as PM made this statement just last year.’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘And the good news is that the future of General Motors is now secure in this country for the next decade.’ ‘ ‘ ‘

    And only an ignorant imbecile would believe it kneel. That`s why bolt fed it to his trolls.

  62. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 11, 2013 9:06 pm

    “Tony Abbott & The Acolytes … now playing in Canberr”

    I know it is what you want to believe but is what you said correct?? I would have thought the money that Gillard announced Holden would still get..

  63. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 11, 2013 9:08 pm

    “And only an ignorant imbecile would believe it kneel”

    Bolt gave a link to a PM Gillard press release that said Holden would be making cars for the next 10 years. What has changed??

  64. egg permalink
    December 11, 2013 9:28 pm

    ‘What has changed??’

    China made a deal with GM too good to refuse.

  65. December 11, 2013 9:34 pm

    General Motors and the other `auto`s went groveling to China for sweatshop/slave labor over a decade ago. Only bolts trolls are not bright enough to know this.

  66. December 11, 2013 9:51 pm

    Hear Hear Di…
    I found this on Bolt ROTFPML Troll imbecile fodder 🙄

    The car industry is the last bastion of corporate protectionist welfare… its the too hard basket for those without political or economic spine too afraid to execute the made up nationalist icon
    … An exit strategy would have been what the diplomatic pragmatist would have done..I would not be surprised if this effect in excess of 50 thousand , but we are talking about the Tony Bunch. Tubthumping Tory tools.

  67. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 11, 2013 9:59 pm

    “Only bolts trolls are not bright enough to know this.”

    Bolt gave this link from 22/3/2012

    http://pmtranscripts.dpmc.gov.au/browse.php?did=18458

    So, I’m pleased to be here today with the Premier, with Minister Combet, with Holden and Mike, to announce some good news. And the good news is that the future of General Motors is now secure in this country for the next decade.

    Holden will be here in Australia producing cars for at least the next 10 years. That’s great news. And it’s as a result of a more than $1 billion co-investment between the Federal Government, the South Australian Government, the Victorian Government and of course Holden, which is investing strongly in the future of manufacturing Holden cars here in Australia.

    So what has changed???? Did Holden take the money and run or has the Coalition not fronted up with some money??

  68. December 11, 2013 11:52 pm

    Tony had to show some tough love because they were addicted to welfare http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-02/holden-reveals-billions-in-subsidies/4604558

  69. egg permalink
    December 12, 2013 7:05 am

    Jericho illustrates that manufacturing has been declining for 40 years and Holden’s demise was inevitable.

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/grogonomics/2013/dec/09/car-industry-is-not-the-productivity-knuckle-dragger-it-is-made-out-to-be

  70. December 12, 2013 7:47 am

    Good Morning Teabags

  71. December 12, 2013 8:21 am

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Bolt gave this link from 22/3/2012’ ‘ ‘ ‘ Yes kneel. To feed his imbecile trolls their daily fodder. Those with a brain in their head know the `auto`industry goes a little further back than ‘ ‘ ‘ ’22/3/2012’ ‘ ‘ ‘

    Learn something, stop guzzling bolts crap.
    https://theguttertrash.com/2013/12/11/its-over-holden-quits-australia/#comment-39440

  72. December 12, 2013 8:37 am

    Lets just give the money to Baz and he can make Holen the movie
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/arts/in-a-flap-over-the-great-subsidy/story-e6frg8n6-1226647887745

  73. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 12, 2013 8:47 am

    “Yes kneel. To feed his imbecile trolls their daily fodder

    Well i just don’t get what you are trying to say. PM Gillard gave a speech on 22/3/2012 saying Holden would be making cars for the next 10 years. So what changed?? Did PM Gillard lie on 22/3/2012?? Did Holden lie to Gillard?? What changed??

  74. December 12, 2013 8:52 am

    Former Victorian Premier says Holden’s exit was avoidable
    Interview by Virginia Trioli Updated Thu 12 Dec 2013, 8:15 AM AEDT

    Former Victorian Premier Steve Bracks published a report in 2008 calling for more assistance for the automotive industry.

    http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-12/former-victorian-premier-says-holdens-exit-was/5151470

    The never-ending supply of nipple for corporates needs to stop, and corporates need to forced to live with their `trickle-down` pain they have inflicted on others.

  75. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 12, 2013 9:44 am

    Gillard always erred on the side of making big politically expedient announcements. She was a born bullshit artist, too much of it. Even for a politician.

    She did provide a 10 year assurance, some would have been stupid enough to believe her. Hope they didn’t increase their mortgages on the back of her promise.

  76. December 12, 2013 12:22 pm

    abc1 news says, Toyota and union in court over `work`agreement, may also leave too.
    (add this to your watch-list fellas)

  77. December 12, 2013 1:09 pm

    You don’t get what i’m trying to say nossy kneel because you are one of Bullshitt Bolster’s (the king of selective context to boost brand bolt) lazy walking zombies.. Let me put it in words you can understand. I won’t go as far as to lobotomise myself to your level of imbecility however, here is the dumbed down version.
    Guess what kneebone…
    John Winston Howard, your overrated economic dwarf hero; handed holden big corporate welfare checks too during his tenure of terror. 🙄

  78. December 12, 2013 2:00 pm

    l have to say l agree with you on both counts Ricky,
    *Kneel is a transfixed bolt-zombie.
    *John-W would kow-tow to corporates with ca$h-handouts more often than not.
    What was his brothers name.?
    Received nice welfare too.

  79. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 12, 2013 2:23 pm

    I must admit you leftoids are hard to understand.

    I posted a link i found on Bolt where Gillard as PM said on 22/3/2012 that Holden would be manufacturing cars for the next 10 years. It was just announced they are closing in 4 years not 10.

    Did Gillard, Holden, The Coalition lie??

    Instead of an answer i get a personal attack on myself, Bolt and John Howard.

  80. December 12, 2013 2:44 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘I posted a link i found on Bolt’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    Which pretty much guarantees the info is bad. Stupidity-1.
    .
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Gillard as PM said on 22/3/2012 that Holden would’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    Stupidity-2. Company reps speak for company`s. Not any politician.
    .
    Kneel l explained here before.
    2nd time l have shown you this.
    https://theguttertrash.com/2013/12/11/its-over-holden-quits-australia/#comment-39440

  81. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 12, 2013 2:55 pm

    Which pretty much guarantees the info is bad. Stupidity-1.”

    No, the information was correct. here is the statement by PM Gillard again

    http://pmtranscripts.dpmc.gov.au/browse.php?did=18458

    Stupidity-2. Company reps speak for company`s. Not any politician.

    I think a company representative was present

    So, I’m pleased to be here today with the Premier, with Minister Combet, with Holden and Mike, to announce some good news. And the good news is that the future of General Motors is now secure in this country for the next decade.

    It said “with Holden and Mike”. I guess Mike= Holden Managing Director Mike Devereux

  82. December 12, 2013 3:03 pm

    Bill Shortman is on fire in question time…GO BILLY BOY..owned Hokey, but thats not hard

  83. December 12, 2013 3:26 pm
  84. December 12, 2013 7:47 pm

    l wonder if our teabags are paying attention to all the Holden interviews which are stating that `free-trade` agreements have been fcuking over our manufacturing.

  85. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 12, 2013 10:51 pm

    Well i think i found the answer to the question i asked. PM Gillard said Holden would be making cars for the next 10 years. However they are now going to make them for the next 4 years only. I found this link.

    http://www.carsguide.com.au/news-and-reviews/car-news/holden_decision_could_come_by_christmas_80738_20131210

    In March 2012 Holden agreed to invest $1 billion in two new cars to be built from 2016 to 2022, in return for $275 million in taxpayer assistance — $215 million from the Federal Government, $50 million from the SA Government and an estimated $10 from the Victorian Government.

    However after Ford announced in May this year that it was closing its factories in 2016, Holden has asked for an increase in taxpayer support because, it says, market conditions have “changed significantly” since the original deal was signed

    Looks like Holden misspoke on 22/3/2012

  86. egg permalink
    December 12, 2013 10:57 pm

    ‘`free-trade` agreements have been fcuking over our manufacturing.’

    Can’t be helped, the free market and free trade agreements are here to stay.

  87. TB Queensland permalink
    December 13, 2013 11:38 am

    egg, could you please explain:

    1. A free market is and where one actually exists?

    2. A free trade agreement and how they actually benefit Australia in global terms?

    Thanks … 🙂

    =========================================

    The Minister for War, Water, Solar Power, Finance and Fun is celebrating her birthday today …

    Lunch with the family at (an expensive :shock:) Chinese restaurant … and then drinks and nibbles this evening on our deck …

  88. December 13, 2013 11:49 am

    Define “expensive”… 🙂

  89. TB Queensland permalink
    December 13, 2013 11:53 am

    Define “expensive”…

    Something you would enjoy paying for and I say, you wanna go WHERE!!! and HOW MUCH!!!

    Wine prices are way over the top … however, the service is really first class and the tucker is bonza, cobber! 😉

  90. December 13, 2013 12:01 pm

    Have a nice lunch TB… 🙂

  91. Dianne permalink
    December 13, 2013 12:09 pm

    I would like to hear those answers too TB.

    I suspect now that the govt will give Toyota lots of money and help it drive down wages and conditions.

    Gina Rinehart was vilified for pointing out the bleeding obvious; that some workers in Australia are competing for the same jobs against Africans earning $2 a day.

    This no-shock govt seems very keen on driving down wages. But how on earth are we ever going to match countries where companies pay in coins to jingle in a pocket?

    Our workers must survive in a high cost country.

    I suppose more people will have to juggle three or so low-paying jobs and/or exist on tips and live in their cars as they do in the Home of the Free, the US.

    I think this govt is hell-bent on dismantling old Australia.

    Even Neil might come to realize that he is one of the turkeys longing for Christmas.

  92. December 13, 2013 12:16 pm

    “Even Neil might come to realize that he is one of the turkeys longing for Christmas.”

    😆

  93. egg permalink
    December 13, 2013 12:29 pm

    A free market means capital chases profits, as opposed to state run enterprises which can be propped up for awhile but will eventually collapse.

    In regards to free trade, nations negotiate to achieve a semblance of balance, there will always be winners and losers.

    ————-

    Di the government has no intention of driving down wages.

  94. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 13, 2013 12:29 pm

    Wine prices are way over the top …

    =$15 for a Rawson’s Retreat

  95. Dianne permalink
    December 13, 2013 12:37 pm

    Egg – What about the child care workers?

    Industry heads are already calling for cuts to Toyota workers pay.

    I am afraid I think otherwise.

    $15! I am sure you bought a dozen Tom.

  96. TB Queensland permalink
    December 13, 2013 12:48 pm

    Our workers must survive in a high cost country.

    Exactly, Di. A discussion I was having with my son-in-law this morning … there is a push at the moment for lowering wages and increasing GST … but no-one has (or will) discuss lowering costs and/or profits … The Robber Barons at play …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    A free market means capital chases profits, as opposed to state run enterprises which can be propped up for awhile but will eventually collapse.

    As opposed to the Chinese model you mean?

    Don’t we prop up the car industry and banks and many other companies in my lifetime alone? And what about those mining super profits?

    In regards to free trade, nations negotiate to achieve a semblance of balance, there will always be winners and losers.

    If there will be winners and losers then why bother … it’s a global free market or it isn’t … why fiddle? Its a case of might will be right …

    Text book answers BTW … but none explain the truth or reality …

  97. December 13, 2013 12:56 pm

    “=$15 for a Rawson’s Retreat”

    😆

  98. Dianne permalink
    December 13, 2013 1:08 pm

    Korrekt TB

  99. egg permalink
    December 13, 2013 2:00 pm

    Industry heads can call for cuts in wages, but it might be easier simply to reduce their hours of work.

    Child care workers are underpaid, they should go on strike.

    ———–

    ‘As opposed to the Chinese model you mean?’

    State run industries in Russia and China eventually failed because they were making stuff nobody wanted.

    Free Trade Agreements are not a free for all.

    What gets up my nose is the way we treated Timor, it has been a disgrace, considering its one of the poorest nations on earth.

  100. TB Queensland permalink
    December 13, 2013 5:08 pm

    State run industries in Russia and China eventually failed because they were making stuff nobody wanted.

    You mean like GMH in Oz?

    🙄 🙄

  101. December 13, 2013 5:10 pm

    The TPP is more a prostration of ourselves to Big Media, Big Pharma & Unca Sam than a ‘free’ trade agreement. In essence, its backroom negotiation & likely infringements of our ‘liberties’ (some libertarians should maybe care about that…but it’s easy to suspect that many of them call themselves ‘libertarian’, but are masquerading as pseudo-free-market-conservatives).
    If it’s such a net positive, why the fuck must it be fleshed out in a cone of silence?

    All so that certain government chosen (Hey! isn’t that winner picking?) sections may ‘flourish’, while they sell out the minor freedoms of joe fucktard & ‘de-socialise’ our PBS etc.

    In the name of George Washingtons & being a servile ally of Big Media & UScorp.

    Fuck your ‘free’ trade agreements. More like corporate Law of The Jungle.

  102. December 13, 2013 5:11 pm

    I know you know about the TPP, TB. Do you got MSB bout it?

  103. December 13, 2013 5:12 pm

    I’ve come to the conclusion that, Dianne, makes rather lucid & cynically healthy comments.

  104. Dianne permalink
    December 13, 2013 6:55 pm

    Vielen dank T.

  105. egg permalink
    December 13, 2013 7:00 pm

    ‘You mean like GMH in Oz?’

    GM should have packed up and left a decade ago, but have been propped up until now.

    They have finally repaid their debt to the US government (except for around $10 billion) and China’s huge market beckons.

  106. December 13, 2013 7:01 pm

    Вы только приветствовать, Дайан.

    Так многие из нас, как правило, чтобы быть достойным славный продувки Ким Чен Ына.

  107. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 13, 2013 7:04 pm

    I just used google translate – very clever!

    (off for red!)

  108. Dianne permalink
    December 13, 2013 7:39 pm

    Too stupid to convey text to google machine. Looks very John Le Carre.

  109. egg permalink
    December 13, 2013 7:41 pm

    Essential has the government back in front.

    http://essentialvision.com.au/documents/essential_report_131210.pdf

  110. December 13, 2013 8:00 pm

    Every house should have one. Funniest internet tool ever

    http://translate.google.com/

  111. December 13, 2013 8:05 pm

    Happy Birthday to Mrs-TB,
    Hope you had a nice lunch.

    So-called `free`trade, l agree with TB, Dianne,
    (ignore Dumpty`s wafflings)

    China has out-manouvered teh-west on all fronts.
    For corporations to access China`s market and slave-labor,
    foreign corporations take their `assets` of all types,
    (cash, designs, equipment, ideas)
    and they become a 50% partner with the Govt of China.

    China also doesn`t let `brokers` fcuk around with China`s currency,
    which trades within a price`band` set by China.

  112. Dianne permalink
    December 13, 2013 8:12 pm

    I can use the translator if I type in text directly but I can’t cut and paste and convey foreign tongues to it on this veteran I pad. I may be looosid but I am quite inept technically.

  113. December 13, 2013 8:31 pm

    Пакетированный

  114. egg permalink
    December 13, 2013 9:08 pm

    Teabag you should read more widely.

  115. December 13, 2013 9:34 pm

    Ahahahahaha…stupid Muricans.

    http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/fox-news-host-megyn-kelly-says-jesus-and-santa-are-white/story-e6frfmyi-1226782765169

    It would be even funnier if so many ignorant muricans didn’t lap that channel up as gospel.

    “Kelly criticised the article, saying: “But just because it makes you feel uncomfortable,” … “doesn’t mean it has to change. Jesus was a white man, too.”

    Kelly then reminded the’s show’s panel, and viewers at home of the “facts” of Jesus Christ’s ethnicity and Santa Claus.

    “Jesus was a white man, too. It’s like we have, he’s a historical figure that’s a verifiable fact, as is Santa, I just want kids to know that,” she said.”

  116. December 13, 2013 10:10 pm

    The Limited-News Fox machinery guarantee we have a steady supply of teabags to mock. Distorted democracy is a small price to pay.

  117. egg permalink
    December 13, 2013 10:36 pm

    Jesus in fact was a Jewish Liberal (NTTIAWWT)

  118. egg permalink
    December 14, 2013 11:14 am

    Di said ….’This no-shock govt seems very keen on driving down wages. But how on earth are we ever going to match countries where companies pay in coins to jingle in a pocket?’

    Wages are not under threat, even as unemployment increases. Out my way Newcrest mine is sacking people and replacing them with new technology.

    “Newcrest reconfirms its focus going forward will be on maximising free cashflow by reducing operating costs, corporate costs and capital expenditure,” the group said six months ago.

    The Cadia Valley operations are replacing humans with robots and this is having a negative impact on the town of Orange because robots don’t eat or sleep.

  119. December 14, 2013 12:30 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘robots don’t eat or sleep’ ‘ ‘ ‘ or circulate cash in any form, which other biz and jobs and Govt revenue depend on.
    (great job Dumpty, not ya`usual clap-trap) 🙂
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Wages are not under threat, even as unemployment increases.’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    TRUE in many cases egg. 🙂
    We have a strange situation where some have good-quality jobs,
    which have fair-to-good pay and conditions, often working long hours, getting nice pay-cheques and doing well. While down at the bottom, shit pay and conditions exist, and getting 3,4,or 5hour-shifts, and try to work at least 2-shifts per day. Lots of time is chewed-up in traveling to/from and BETWEEN jobs, which doubles the cost of `working` in petrol, tolls, train-fares, and travel time lost, is unpaid/wasted time the worker loses for nothing, instead of family, resting, training or other benefit people should have when NOT working. This lost time generates NO profit and NO tax-revenue, time just thrown on the bonfire for the small benefit of some, usually monster corporations that pay their boardrooms in the million$.

  120. egg permalink
    December 14, 2013 12:41 pm

    My heart goes out to the wage slaves, there but for the grace of dog.

  121. December 14, 2013 12:50 pm

    Thanks comrade egg. 🙂

    Just realize every time you hear ANY politician bullshitting on about PRODUCTIVITY needing to be `increased`, the nation can`t `lift`productivity with more and more of us trapped within this great `time-loss`loop, that wastes so much of our time.

  122. TB Queensland permalink
    December 14, 2013 1:41 pm

    Out my way Newcrest mine is sacking people and replacing them with new technology

    Remote control mining equipment is not new … check Tamrock (a former clent of mine) … but you still require human expertise to operate it … there are just too many variables in mining for AI to deal with “alone”… bit of futuristic wishful thinking …

    BTW … the Luddites were wrong … ’cause I was born and lived in the villages where it all happened … long before I arrived of course 😉

  123. TB Queensland permalink
    December 14, 2013 1:42 pm

    RE Tamrock … Sandvik bought them out so if you want to check look up Sandvik … both Finnish companies …

  124. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 14, 2013 1:45 pm

    Manufacturing is beset by overlapping union coverage, in many plants there will be one union covering production, another covering mechanical maintenance, another covering electrical maintenance, in the distribution centre or warehouse there will be yet another, and possibly if it’s really old fashioned, there will be another in the office.

    The problem (in many marginal sites) is that they all want a say, they all want to retain their coverage, they all resist the type of modern flexibility that might safe the activity.

    Eg – try getting an AWU machine operator doing basic maintenance when the AMWU covers mechanical maintenance.

  125. December 14, 2013 1:55 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘but you still require’ ‘ ‘ ‘ MANY MANY LESS HUMANS’ ‘ ‘ ‘human expertise to operate it’ ‘ ‘ ‘

    Don`t know if you have seen the latest doco on `robotic` self-drive vehicles TB, very impressive. The `reporter` was told to get in the passenger seat, the vehicle drove itself perfectly thru various terrains, identifying obstacles and avoiding them.

    Can`t remember doco name, but it was a military application, truck was to be used in warfare logistics, so people couldn`t be killed or taken hostage in Afghan style mis-adventures. This `robotic` stuff can be transfered over to `mining` no-problem, and may even be the next `Lin-Fox`, very few human jobs will replace the many lost when this goes full-throttle. Rail-way too, l suspect.

  126. public toilet permalink
    December 14, 2013 2:08 pm

    I think TB’s right.

    Robotics usually do the mundane, repetitive or heavy tasks.

    There are many where I work. They still need operations support & certainly can’t definitively troubleshoot themselves or think their way out of unprogrammed upset conditions. At least, not like a well trained human operator.

    Self guided vehicles (we have those already) don’t perform the same function as a person overseeing the efficient operation of complex production machinery.

  127. December 14, 2013 2:15 pm

    Management is beset by overlapping department coverage, in many offices there will be one manager covering production, another covering mechanical maintenance, another covering electrical maintenance, in the distribution centre or warehouse there will be yet another, and possibly if it’s really old fashioned, there will be another in the office.

    The problem (in many management sites) is that they all want a say, they all want to retain their coverage, they all resist the type of modern flexibility that might safe the activity.

    Eg – try getting any manager doing basic management with his own private office, actually keeping his office clean.

  128. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 14, 2013 2:24 pm

    How unusual and very surprising! 730 provides a reworded piece of unoriginality!

    What 730 never realises is that it has been this pattern of avaricious union behaviour and turf wars that has soured the willingness of businesses of invest. Managers come and go, with varying degrees of competence, the one constant in many manufacturers is being dragged into turf wars and being locked into archaic work practices driven by the hunger for coverage.

    730 doesn’t really get this.

    (now I can expect a lame rewording of this comment)

  129. egg permalink
    December 14, 2013 2:38 pm

    Thanx TB

  130. December 14, 2013 2:39 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Self guided vehicles don’t perform the same function as a person overseeing the efficient operation of complex production machinery.’ ‘ ‘ ‘

    You`re backed-up Dunny, you need a flush.
    Nobody here is claiming a dozen robotic/self-drive trucks will `replace` their human/tech overseeing them. Clearly, the dozen self-drives will replace a dozen truck-drivers.

    .
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘certainly can’t definitively troubleshoot themselves or think their way out of unprogrammed upset conditions’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘

    You`re under-estimating here Dunny.
    Diagnostics, Logs, Recording are already in play today.
    Aircraft has `black-box`s, (actually hi-viz yellow/orange)
    Auto`s are now loaded with circuits/chips a mechanic often can`t do much without the `diagnostic`computer that `talks` to the cars chips/circuits. Aircraft flight computers, auto-pilots and all the electronics stuffed into commercial aircraft are in the same boat.
    Logs and diagnostics are loaded into most computer systems, also some self-fixes.

  131. egg permalink
    December 14, 2013 2:48 pm

    Got it, LHDs are killing small business.

    http://www.miningmagazine.com/panorama/sandvik-scoops-cadia-lhd-contract

  132. December 14, 2013 2:54 pm

    Actually yomm, l understand you Love to cling to your `unions-boo` theme, but l was just showing that `management-boo` has it`s place to.

    Now l don`t want you to go and get all unhinged, but here is a little fact for ya,

    Unions are a by-product of shit employers.

    .

    And another little fact for ya,

    Management and Boardrooms have driven more businesses into extinction than any union/action ever has, or ever will.
    .
    Oh, another inconvenient little fact for ya,
    Crime, Fraud, and getting people killed, yep, you guessed it, Management has most of the runs on the board here too. Can you say Enron.?

  133. public toilet permalink
    December 14, 2013 2:55 pm

    I’m underestimating nothing. In fact, I am intimately familiar with the things I stated, and I’m well paid to be so.

    My major point was that there is a world of difference between an AI vehicle & a human operator of complex electrical/mechanical equipment.

    Even with all of the bells & whistles you refer to, I regularly witness their failure or inability to self-diagnose, reset & continue.
    As I said, automation generally negates humans in the mundane, repetitive & heavy tasks. Not critical decision making.

  134. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 14, 2013 3:10 pm

    Unions are a by-product of shit employers.

    …and TB regularly makes that comment, and I always agree with him. but when changes need to be made by a new, competent management, unions represent the huge obstacle.

    Once chain dragging unions take hold, they never release it, regardless of the decent efforts of a company.

    The Carpenter’s Union had coverage in Qantas, because some of the cabin interior was made from wood. Imagine the difficulties of getting the wood framing union to co-operate with the union that covered the people who put the vinyl over it. That’s just a microcosm of the turf wars that many managers have to put up with, that add nothing to wages, conditions, job security.

    Qantas (for example) is completely buried by the difficulties in getting past those types of archaic work practices.

    They beset Holden and many other manufacturers too.

  135. December 14, 2013 3:14 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Not critical decision making.’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    That bit is blatantly obvious.
    Robotics-machines-computers only do what people tell`em, `programed` or at operator level.
    .
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘I regularly witness their failure or inability to self-diagnose, reset & continue.’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    And that would return us back to the human-failure. Design failure, incorrect purpose, repair failure, or selecting the wrong system right from the start.

  136. December 14, 2013 3:38 pm

    Management represent the huge obstacle.

    Once chain dragging management take hold, they never release it, regardless of the decent efforts of a government.

    Annually Extorting government for welfare and threatening to close, sack the workforce and show to the public there may not be parts for their product available in the future, negated the millions of dollars spent on marketing and advertising the Holden product, at home or off-shore.

    Ignoring the employment environment and market tastes at home, and economy generally, including currency exchange rates and ability to export and to where. Not paying attention to what was imported, and the pricing point.

    All Holden Management Failure, not union.

  137. TB Queensland permalink
    December 14, 2013 3:49 pm

    How unusual and very surprising! 730 provides a reworded piece of unoriginality

    I thought it made the point quite succinctly … in your ideal world a Cairns bus driver should be able jump into the cockpit of a 777 and happily fly a load of passengers down to Launceston … easy …

    Skills are not just acquired because you are a member of a certain union, you are in a certain union because of your skill set …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Clearly, the dozen self-drives will replace a dozen truck-drivers.

    No, tea, you’re missing the point … and obviously never been on a mine site … I repeat, there are way too many variables on a minesite for pure robotics … think drones, they still need pilots … and logs and diagnostics still need to be interpreted by techs …

    … for instance these days you can tune an engine via digital equipment … but you need the “human expert” to do the final tweaking … and a Toillette points out … the diagnostic equipment still needs diagnosing and servicing – usually by human techs …

    … I’ve no doubt what you see will come but not for a few decades yet … and that’s when it gets interesting … what’s the point in the system we now have … do we adopt a command system if everything is done by machine? How do you keep the masses controlled? etc etc etc

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    ToM, I don’t think I ever said “shit” management … I have always said poor management … big difference … and highlighted because you italicised it (generally seen here as a quote) …

    Reading your commenst above I get the impression you are unaware that there has a massive consolidation of unions in Australia over the last few years …

    http://www.actu.org.au/Links.aspx

  138. December 14, 2013 3:50 pm

    Where is our teabag bleeding hearts for holden share-holders, and their condemnation for the management that ran it into the ground. Our teabag apologists for all things corporate don`t seem to be squealing for boardroom salary and bonus recovery for share-holders who clearly have not received the performance they have paid for.

  139. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 14, 2013 4:03 pm

    “A massive consolidation”

    Really TB. That’s why the vehicle division of the AMWU is at logger heads with the metals division. That’s why at Toyota during their last EBA the vehicle division wanted to sign the agreement, but were held up by the minority metals division.

    That’s why the communications division of the CEPU is always fighting for coverage with the electrical division, there is no integration of communications & electrical crews in the NBN rollout for example. Same Union but they operate in complete isolation from one another.

    That’s why the construction division of the CFMEU won’t follow the lead of the printing division when there is a new pulp plant.

    You need to get up to date how the “consolidation” operates in the real world TB.

  140. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 14, 2013 4:09 pm

    TB – “… in your ideal world a Cairns bus driver should be able jump into the cockpit of a 777 and happily fly a load of passengers down to Launceston … easy …

    Not at all, I’ve never made any suggestion like this. Ridiculous TB.

    But perhaps you would explain how employees actually benefit from the multitude of unions that cover a traditional manufacturing operation. Who do plant operators develop higher level skills if the higher level is covered by a self interested (other) union?

    How do employees benefit by skill acquisition if unions bottle up their skill and area of coverage?

    Does this create an environment that is conducive to investment and expansion?

  141. December 14, 2013 4:15 pm

    As teabags consider corporate willful blindness a proper tool to use, you then can`t squeal when others adopt the same tools.

  142. December 14, 2013 5:00 pm

    This was my point too.

    “No, tea, you’re missing the point … and obviously never been on a mine site … I repeat, there are way too many variables on a minesite for pure robotics … think drones, they still need pilots … and logs and diagnostics still need to be interpreted by techs … ”

    Just substitute ‘mine site’ for sundry other high technology manufacturing worksites. I wouldn’t bother talking out of my arse about this. I actually know .

    You simply can’t ‘program’ humans out of some jobs. I reiterate…automation generally negates humans in the mundane, repetitive & heavy tasks. Not critical decision making.
    Some people’s ideas of ‘manufacturing’ is not very well fleshed out. Ever heard of LEAN manufacturing? well, it still requires actual live humans to make it happen…& it’s not called lean for no reason.
    This ain’t fucking Star Trek.

    Also, Tom is quite correct about the competitive overlap of various Unions representing various groups on the same site. This is something else I’m intimately acquainted with. Such arrangements are absolutely counterproductive to longevity of employment.
    TB is also correct that bad management necessitates Unions…but not all employers characterise bad or unreasonable management.

  143. December 14, 2013 5:24 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘but you still require’ ‘ ‘ ‘ MANY MANY LESS HUMANS’ ‘ ‘ ‘human expertise to operate it’ ‘ ‘ ‘

    >>> operate <<<

    previously l have said “mine-truck-driver“ and TB has `corrected` me to `operator` which is what l took him to mean above, where maybe he was meaning `drone-driver` or `repairman`

    l think we`re all sayin the same thing (TB + Dunny)

  144. December 14, 2013 5:37 pm

    #drones
    on what l`ve seen on the drones, they can take-off, land, and fly on auto-pilot to gps locations and remain in a holding pattern, no human required,

    the human `drone-drivers` are in Colorado usa, they only `drive` when they bomb, or more often do observation, from memory there was 8 `drone-drivers` in the room, that had a couple of dozen drones to control, obviously some on ground refueling, some on-mission, others flying to and from mission, the point being 8 `drone-drivers` were in charge/control of many more than 8 drones

    *yes the `repairman` will be human

  145. egg permalink
    December 14, 2013 5:44 pm

    ‘China may be the most industrious nation in the world, according to a recent German survey, but a Chinese labor expert said lax labor rights have created a culture of overworked employees who do not take vacations.’

    China Daily

  146. TB Queensland permalink
    December 14, 2013 7:49 pm

    Not at all, I’ve never made any suggestion like this. Ridiculous TB.

    Well I’m not sure of your trade qualifications or workshop experience (your quals or experience in anything really) …

    But you did make that suggestion … although you may not have realised it …

    Eg – try getting an AWU machine operator doing basic maintenance when the AMWU covers mechanical maintenance.

    Does this create an environment that is conducive to investment and expansion?

    You could ask the AMA? And all the other specialist associations … bugger me that sounds like the divisions in the unions …

    Training and assessment under the National Training System can be undertaken by the employee themselves, often by the employer and by individuals … I can’t recall unions undertaking industry skills training nor recognising them (legally) … they do train in other areas eg WHS … (with government accreditation) …

    BTW mechanical and electrical maintenance are different fields as is production … and I do agree with one thing they all need to integrate … that’s a management responsibility … did I tell you that I was a night shift superintendent and production manager? 🙄

    The army managed to “combine” the two maintenance streams sort of – its called RAEME …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    TB is also correct that bad management necessitates Unions…but not all employers characterise bad or unreasonable management.

    Wholeheartedly agree, Toillette … I rememeber my boss (Personnel Manager and mentor) having a rousing argument with the Secretary of the Ironworkers Union …

    Secretary: Everyone is entitled to a job!!

    My boss: I agree, Steven, but not necessarily here!

    Classic …

    … my boss was very left wing BTW … he once hired three buses so that our guys would vote a particular way at a union meeting in Brisbane … I walked away from him in PNG when he told someon that he had “been creating chaos so that he could manage it” … I was the “manager” … pissed me right off …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Not being rude, Tea, they are referred to as “operators” … I own the IP for 54 types of mobile mining equipment training and assessment … from forklifts to cranes to draglines and also prep plants …

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    from memory there was 8 `drone-drivers` in the room, that had a couple of dozen drones to control,

    Here’s a qustion for you … do you really think that the USAF has a pilot for every plane?

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    but a Chinese labor expert said lax labor rights have created a culture of overworked employees who do not take vacations.’

    Sounds like Australia … nothing is new …

    http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/regus-survey-finds-australians-work-unpaid-in-christmas-holidays/story-fnet0he2-1226782700374

  147. TB Queensland permalink
    December 14, 2013 7:52 pm

    and also prep plants …

    Mmmm … prep plants are NOT mobile … believe me …

  148. IPA permalink
    December 14, 2013 8:05 pm

    “BTW … the Luddites were wrong”

    Yes. Yes they were.

  149. Dianne permalink
    December 14, 2013 8:11 pm

    Luddites are always right.

    I am one and I am never, ever wrong.

    So there.

  150. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 14, 2013 8:15 pm

    Why is it that Holden workers get sooo much help??

    They have been told they will be retrenched in four years. Furthermore they will get 12 months severance pay. So they have a salary for the next 5 years.

    Is there any other profession which gives such certainty??

    I mean most of us do not like politicians but they have certainty for 3 years and then they have to stand for their jobs again.

  151. Dianne permalink
    December 14, 2013 8:19 pm

    And while we are on the subject, I must say I am sick of being told to Move Forward.

    Those doing the exhorting are often unsavory types I have no desire to follow anywhere.

    I prefer people who pop the kettle on and invite you for a stroll down memory lane.

  152. December 14, 2013 8:25 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘USAF has a pilot for every plane?’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    No idea. l think the `drone` doco l saw was part of one of teh-usa spook-orgs contractors.
    .
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Tea, they are referred to as “operators”’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    Yes, they all are, `drivers`, `repairmen` and `drone-drivers`, it is a very generic/non-specific term, just as `manager` and `technician` can be which tells little about the `specific` job/task. Which was what l was referring to.

    To an `out-side-industry` reader, the term `mine-truck-driver` leaves absolutely no-doubt in the job/task l am referring to, tho not `technically` correct, l am allowing the uninformed to join the thread, not locking-out with `tech-jargon`.

  153. December 14, 2013 9:22 pm

    Dunny, l`ve never claimed `robots` will be doing `decision` making, critical or otherwise. The point l was making is more job loss.

    #Lean #Toyota-ism or what-ever else you want to call it is not really an answer, China is already ahead, lndia too (somewhat) and understand they have to replicate and improve Lean/Best-Practice techniques, and are doing so.

    The main point of both is the loss of good-quality JOBS and replacing a very few with better jobs, but MOST of them with shit-jobs. Worker/Consumers without cash to spent don`t make for a HEALTHY CAPITALISM.

  154. December 14, 2013 10:21 pm

    Nice to see Dianne reporting from under the Queen-Size. 🙂
    We really need the chicks to turn up more often,
    (where the hell is armchair)
    to add some `two-eyed` opinion to this joint, the over-blown testosterone filled `one-eyed` screeching from the `usual`suspects needs some diversity. l too am sick of the extorter`s hiding the truth in corporate-speak gobble-d-gook.

  155. December 15, 2013 1:28 am

    l was grinding coffee beans at coffee-2 recently,

    730reportland . . December 12, 2013 • 5:03 pm
    .
    Vicki, you ignore the `core` facts of the `global`auto situation.

    Govts in teh-west were continually extorted for `welfare`handouts so they would provide `jobs`.

    VERSES

    China extorts the corporations for 50% shareholding/profit for the corporation to have `access` to their market and slave-labor.

    CHECKMATE
    China has always had a much smarter Govt than we could ever muster.

    730reportland . . December 12, 2013 • 5:14 pm
    .
    l notice the Lefty`s are/seem to be wanting to continue to allow auto corporations to continue extorting us for our tax-$, but for how long.? Just how long, and how much tax-$ should be thrown on this bonfire.? This cash could be used better else-where.

    Marcus . . December 14, 2013 • 10:34 am
    .
    Oh dear, 730reportland, spoken like a typical Right Wing, Abbott adoring troll. Whilst morons like you are happy to whinge about a mere $200 million per annum in subsidies to keep manufacturing alive, you’re more than happy to let the mining industry rip us off to the tune of more than $4 *billion* per annum in direct & indirect subsidies. You also seem quite content with the PHI industry getting an indirect subsidy of $3 billion per annum. I do love the rampant hypocrisy of the Lunar Right.

    Guffaw. Way to go Marcus. 😆 ` 😆 ` 😆 ` 😆 ` 😆 `
    http://theaimn.com/2013/12/09/an-open-letter-to-holden-md-mike-devereux/

  156. Dianne permalink
    December 15, 2013 9:41 am

    Neil – you might like to illuminate.

    I have just heard a fellow from the Grattan Institute talking on the ABC about the need for tough measures in the forthcoming budget.

    Pray tell?

    Raising the old age pension age for one.

    Sounds feasible I suppose when it is written down in a discussion paper. But what would it mean?

    It would require a major change in attitudes to employing people.

    Forklift drivers in their late sixties?

    My common sense tells me that older people will find it hard to gain/keep jobs. What will they live on?

  157. egg permalink
    December 15, 2013 10:03 am

    Good morning Di, we have a safety net so that when any old person in their late sixties takes a doctor’s certificate to Centrelink, saying they are unfit for work, they will go straight on the pension.

    This is not a draconian measure by government, they are trying to ease the baby boomer bubble through the system without a hiccup.

  158. TB Queensland permalink
    December 15, 2013 10:47 am

    Is there any other profession which gives such certainty??

    I mean most of us do not like politicians but they have certainty for 3 years and then they have to stand for their jobs again.

    Two terms (six) years and pollies are supported for life …

  159. TB Queensland permalink
    December 15, 2013 10:55 am

    Raising the old age pension age for one.

    What he should have said was:

    “Raising the old age pension for one.”

    Max for couple: $32,416

    Max single: $21,504

  160. Dianne permalink
    December 15, 2013 11:08 am

    So true TB. And supported very nicely too. Top shelf all the way.

    Egg – they may be fit to work but weary and and creaky. Heave yourself up on the forklift Stanley. Only two years to go old boy.

    Are we living in a time which will have the chapter heading: The Age of Fundamentalism?

    I believe we are. Boring old men everywhere, even the young ones. Dismantlers not builders. Punishers. The Market is God and so is Greed.

    I can hardly bear the thought of 2014. Union bashing everywhere I suspect. Productivity. Productivity. Blah blah. Toyota? Mmmmm. MUA?

    You talk about there being no govt assault on salaries Egg. Well that remains to be seen. I think child are workers would not agree.

    Members of my family are already providing their some of their labor freely to big companies. This is not be uncommon in an age where one can be contacted around the clock.

    People are working for tips. I wonder how far off it will be before people start bidding for jobs just for access to tips. It happens in the US.

    People are also working for some Internet sites for no pay, just the exposure.

    Someone wrote recently that many workers are now galley slaves rowing pirate ships.

  161. December 15, 2013 11:12 am

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Raising the old age pension age for one.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ (Dianne)
    .
    lt`s not like our reheated Howard zombies are trying to return to `work-till-you-drop` from the old `worse-choice` manual or anything, don`t panic, Mr-Rabbit Loves you and you`re in `safe`hands.

  162. December 15, 2013 11:34 am

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘The Age of Fundamentalism?’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Dismantlers not builders. Punishers.’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘The Market is God and so is Greed.’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    .
    Actually Dianne, it`s funny you say that. Around here (home) l have often said the Teabags are economic terrorists practicing a fundamental religion. *ironic*

  163. Dianne permalink
    December 15, 2013 11:43 am

    Yes Teabag – rote-learnt, cliched parrotings.

    I am going to stuff my ears with cotton wool. They are only just starting.

  164. egg permalink
    December 15, 2013 11:49 am

    ‘….they may be fit to work but weary and creaky.’

    Then they can quit work and get unemployment benefits, its the same as the pension except that they require forms to be filled out on a regular basis.

  165. Dianne permalink
    December 15, 2013 11:56 am

    Good on you Egg. You have it all covered.

    Not sure if you are a Beleeever or just winding me up.

  166. egg permalink
    December 15, 2013 12:07 pm

    Having lived on the margins most of my life, you become street wise. If an old bloke says I’m not goin’ on the dole, then he can do a TAFE course, its the same as the pension.

  167. Dianne permalink
    December 15, 2013 12:10 pm

    TAFE ain’t what it used to be.

  168. December 15, 2013 12:20 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘they can quit work and get unemployment benefits’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    According to one of my `dole` knowledgable neighbors, no they can`t, you need to have some form/paperwork from your employer you have been sacked/etc, else you`re not elegible for said `dole`, he keeps advising me to make sure l start getting them when jobs end. l usually don`t.
    .
    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘do a TAFE course, its the same as the pension.’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    Yep. He has told me that too. Problem is it`s another exercise in throwing ca$h on the bonfire for most, as they are too old to realistically be hire, over 45-years old, it starts getting harder, 55+, forget it. Bit of a ponzi scheme. Training, but no job anyway.

  169. Dianne permalink
    December 15, 2013 12:27 pm

    Indeed Teabag – common sense tells you that an employer of manual workers is going to take on a fit 19-year-old over a 68-year-old with arthritis and memory loss.

  170. egg permalink
    December 15, 2013 12:28 pm

    ‘TAFE ain’t what it used to be.’

    That’s true, but for the mental misfits, creatives of one sort or another, the arts are still relatively free.

  171. egg permalink
    December 15, 2013 12:33 pm

    Teabag if a person hates his job and quits, he has to wait longer to get the benefit, as opposed to the person who was sacked through no fault of his own.

    Imagine the societal chaos if we only gave the dole to people who got the sack.

  172. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 15, 2013 12:33 pm

    People are worried about people who work for the components manufacturers who supply parts for Holden cars. What will they do when Holden stops manufacturing??

    Well i saw a blog comment which said Holden would make a profit and survive if they paid their workers the same wages as the manufacturers who supply parts for Holden. Apparently Holden workers are in the top tier of salaries. Way above workers doing a similar job working for other companies.

  173. December 15, 2013 12:39 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘he has to wait longer to get the benefit,’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    Thankz Egg. 🙂 l freely admit l know very little about the dole-office.
    l can only go on what folks around me rant about.

  174. December 15, 2013 1:13 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘if they paid their workers the same wages as the manufacturers who supply parts for Holden.’ ‘ ‘ ‘

    They should all get 1-cent per-day, and be grateful for it.
    That will guarantee the `boost` the retailers are screeching for.

    #TeabagStupidityIsArareCommodity

  175. Dianne permalink
    December 15, 2013 1:25 pm

    From the New York Times …
    In 20 years the number of American children diagnosed with Attention Deficit Disorder and accordingly prescribed stimulants has jumped from 600,000 to 3.5 million.

    That period coincides with a successful marketing push of drugs used to treat condition by pharmaceutical companies.

    The doctor who campaigned for 50 years to have the condition recognized said children have been over diagnosed resulting in a national calamity.

    Ah The Market at work again.

  176. egg permalink
    December 15, 2013 1:37 pm

    The Ugly Face of Kapitalism

  177. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 15, 2013 1:40 pm

    “They should all get 1-cent per-day, and be grateful for it.

    You know i was trying to make a contribution the the debate and i get a smart arse comment.

    I guess Holden workers would say they need the high wages to survive. But the fact is they are getting paid higher wages than component suppliers who supply them parts.

    Looks like human greed and Union stupidity has led to the destruction of Holden.

  178. TB Queensland permalink
    December 15, 2013 1:40 pm

    Ah The Market at work again.

    + Lazy Professionals + Lazy Parents

  179. TB Queensland permalink
    December 15, 2013 1:47 pm

    Looks like human greed and Union stupidity has led to the destruction of Holden.

    Looks like you got it wrong again, Kneel …

    People don’t buy Holdens ’cause most Asutralians don’t like them … poor management and marketing are the culprits … managers are often members of unions of course if that’s who you are talking about.

    And why would you think that quoting another blog comment here holds any water without proof … and comments made here with links don’t … astounding …

    EG …

    Well i saw a blog comment which said Holden would make a profit and survive if they paid their workers the same wages as the manufacturers who supply parts for Holden. Apparently Holden workers are in the top tier of salaries. Way above workers doing a similar job working for other companies.

    There are so many holes and “arguments” in that paragraph I won’t give it the benefit of challenge …

  180. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 15, 2013 1:55 pm

    Well how about Toyota?? They want to only shut down for 10 days to meet customer demand over Christmas and the Unions want 3 weeks. The countries they export to don’t celebrate Christmas.

    How many companies in Australia shut down for 3 weeks over Christmas??

  181. December 15, 2013 2:09 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘the the debate and i get a smart arse comment.’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    l wouldn`t dare do that Kneel.
    https://theguttertrash.com/2013/12/11/its-over-holden-quits-australia/#comment-39717
    #UsRightWingAbbottAdoringTrollsHaveGottaStickTogether

  182. December 15, 2013 2:28 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Two terms (six) years and pollies are supported for life’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    l suppose that`s Canberra TB. l bet the States are trough-snouting just as bad. Another fine example of our So-called equality, in our so-called class-less, so-called fair, so-called society.

  183. Dianne permalink
    December 15, 2013 3:02 pm

    TB – I don’t think parents are lazy. I think they do what they are told is best for their child.

    Apparently this drug companies have been so richly rewarded that they are now producing drugs for adult sufferers of that condition.

  184. December 15, 2013 4:43 pm

    ” Way to go Marcus.”

    People like Marcus’ preconceived responses may often be attributed to how they imagine their ideological enemies to be, rebag. I don’t reckon they actually try to read comments with any sort of critical analysis beyond…”he said sumptin’ I can’t assimilate…therefore, he must be from ‘The Other Side'”…an opinion somewhere between polemics doesn’t occur to them, apparently.

    The aligned, of either stripe, seem to fall into that pattern with consummate ease.

  185. December 15, 2013 5:07 pm

    #Marcus
    l reckon Marcus gave me a great reply-rant, had me ROFLing as soon as l read it, thought a few here might enjoy the laugh. What l always find highly amusing is l think l`m un-rusted/pretty-central, and l get called right-wing troll by Lefty`s, and Left-minion from the teabags. And l`m just wondering, ls this `confirmation-bias`.?

  186. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 16, 2013 9:15 am

    Those people claiming that Holden were gone no matter what are kidding themselves, and us. With Government assistance, they would have stayed. What they needed was certainty in order to keep them operating whilst the dollar was so high. That, and that almost alone, is what was making them unaffordable. The Liberals forced their hand, which means, they are responsible for losing Holden, no one else. If they had been prepared to work with them, and give them a fraction the amount the give the mining magnates, there would still be hope for those workers at Holden and it’s subsidiaries. Tony Abbott and his Government willingly threw those people and their jobs on the scrap heap. And they should be held to account for their betrayal.

    Without government assistance, head office in Detroit had decided that making cars in Australia no longer added up – to the tune of $3750 a car per year.
    ………………………..
    What Holden needed was a further commitment of $150 million a year from the government through to 2020 – roughly $2000 a car built. With that, Mr Devereux could get the numbers to work. In return, Holden would continue making the VF Commodore and Cruze in Australia until 2017, and then commit to build GM’s next generation global car in Adelaide until 2020.

    http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/taunts-in-parliament-and-text-brought-about-general-motors-holdens-exit-from-australia-20131211-2z6i6.html

    The Government went to war with GM, and then tried to claim that it was ‘inevitable’. What a crock.

  187. TB Queensland permalink
    December 16, 2013 11:25 am

    How capitalism and free eneterprise really works in a market economy …

    QUEENSLAND families are paying power companies more than $150 a year just to compete with each other.

    The fees are charged to help cover the cost of marketing and to encourage retailers into the market by providing a cushion for them to discount.

    Even Ergon Energy customers in regional Queensland have to fork out the fees – despite the fact there is no competition in their area.

    http://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/call-to-scrap-150-fee-added-to-household-bills-for-power-company-marketing-and-advertising/story-fnii5v6w-1226783588503

  188. TB Queensland permalink
    December 16, 2013 11:52 am

    Holden is going, going gone …because it makes and sells the wrong cars for Australian consumers (and it would seem the rest of the world) and has simply lost the plot and therefore sales. Its become another welfare reliant industry … no wonder governments have no money to spend on “real” welfare for the ill, the aged, the poor and children’s education.

    It is a market economy (or should be), remember?

    The Holden Commodore, Australia’s number one car for 15 years until 2011, slipped to fourth in the rankings with 30,532 sales, narrowly ahead of its locally built stablemate the Holden Cruze and the fast-finishing Toyota Camry (27,230).

    While the overall market results were encouraging, there were some grim tidings for the embattled Australian car industry, with sales of the traditional family staples slumping to record lows. The Commodore and Ford’s Falcon each saw sales dip by more than 25 per cent in 2012 as buyers continued to switch to small cars and SUVs.

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/4wds-lead-car-sales-to-record-highs-20130104-2c850.html

    Simple ROI strategy … for Australia …

    … blaming Abbott & The Acolytes, in this case, is simply foolish politics rather than pragmatic decision making.

  189. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 16, 2013 12:27 pm

    blaming Abbott & The Acolytes, in this case, is simply foolish

    Well, from the words of the Holden boss, it was their behaviour that nailed the coffin.

    The slump in sales was attributed, quite rightly, to the high dollar. That will not last forever, although, the death of Holden just might. They were definitely in a transition process, with their future tied to the Cruze, which, after a rocky start, was shaping up to quite a respectable unit. All gone now, without the current Government lifting a finger to help. In fact, with the current Government seemingly forcing them out.

  190. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 16, 2013 12:37 pm

    And is Ford up and leaving Abbotts fault also?? Nisan and Mitsubishi also left. Abbotts fault as well??

  191. Dianne permalink
    December 16, 2013 1:22 pm

    Well I suppose if you have bought the idea that The Market decides all then the rest all falls neatly into line.

    Except that it doesn’t.

    Life is too messy.

    I am with Pope Francis.

  192. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 16, 2013 1:31 pm

    None of those are anyone’s fault but a car market too large for our country and whose priorities lie elsewhere Neil of Sydney. But, as shown, Holden was sustainable. All it took was incentive. With that incentive, GM management would have kept the Holden business here, as they stated. That incentive was removed, so the company was removed. Directly because of a decision from the Government, unlike all of the others, who left despite positive actions from the Government. This was the direct result of positive actions from the Government. Hence, it is directly their fault.

  193. TB Queensland permalink
    December 16, 2013 1:46 pm

    Promise me you won’t go into business, JJ … or manage a company …

  194. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 16, 2013 1:52 pm

    What does it have to do with me running a business TB?

    I am only going on what Holden said

    With that, Mr Devereux could get the numbers to work.

    So, with the assistance, they had a viable company. Without, it is now gone.

  195. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 16, 2013 2:06 pm

    “I am only going on what Holden said

    Gillard and Holden said in 2012 they would be making cars in Australia for the next 10 years. Broke their promise they did. GM should return the money they were given.

    Fact is manufacturing is too expensive in Australia. Holden is just following everybody else out of the country.

  196. December 16, 2013 2:11 pm

    “Broke their promise they did”

    Fuck me…

    NEIL IS YODA!!!

  197. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 16, 2013 2:17 pm

    Gillard and Holden said in 2012 they would be making cars in Australia for the next 10 years.

    There was an assumption that the Government would be trying to keep the company in the country when that promise was made, not trying to chase them out

  198. TB Queensland permalink
    December 16, 2013 2:21 pm

    I am only going on what Holden said

    Exactly …

    Fact is manufacturing is too expensive in Australia.

    No its not … the profits and cost of living are too high … eg POWER!

  199. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 16, 2013 2:22 pm

    JJ

    What a load of bull. Just stay true to form labor supporter. Keep telling lies.

    Based on what i have read Holden is leaving because Ford is leaving. That was something that was not factored into Holdens commitment to build cars in Australia for the next 10 years which was announced in 2012 by Gillard and Holden.

    Oh and Abbott has not taken away any govt assistance as you claimed. There was no incentive removed.

  200. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 16, 2013 2:31 pm

    Neil of Sydney

    The Abbott government’s refusal to countenance further industry assistance should come as no surprise: in opposition, the Coalition’s firm policy was to cut A$500 million from the ALP government’s support package.

    https://theconversation.com/walking-away-from-holden-abbott-finishes-what-hewson-started-21376

    Did they lie about that?

  201. Splatterbottom permalink
    December 16, 2013 2:40 pm

    A good chunk of the money thrown at Holden over the years has gone to over-award payments to unionists. Sadly a lot of people who will lose their jobs over this work for suppliers at more normal rates of pay.

  202. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 16, 2013 3:07 pm

    With Government assistance, they would have stayed.

    I’d have preferred some assistance, but our reputation for stable manufacturing and IR isn’t conducive to long term viability.

  203. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 16, 2013 3:18 pm

    but our reputation for stable manufacturing and IR isn’t conducive to long term viability.

    That may be your view, but it was not the view of the GM management

  204. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 16, 2013 3:31 pm

    Really? Can you name a time when a business has publicity blamed the government? Or unions?

    People in business know they are the two critical factors, but prefer not to engage in the highly charged public debate that follows.

    Do you only believe stuff if it’s in a press release?

  205. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 16, 2013 3:40 pm

    Do you only believe stuff if it’s in a press release?

    I rarely believe things in a press release. But I do believe that, when they are bargaining in good faith, Holden deal with unions successfully. They made a deal with them to freeze wages, which the workers took. It was not Unions who destroyed the Holden automotive company, it was a political party who acted in bad faith.

    Can you name a time when a business has publicity blamed the government?

    Ask Harvey Norman. He blamed Labor for pretty much everything. have you ever witnessed a time when the Treasurer of a country dared a company to leave?

  206. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 16, 2013 3:41 pm

    Holden is just following television manufacture, fridges, washing machines, dryers, clothing etc.

    But i do believe the comment i read where if Holden workers were paid the same salaries as the component manufacturers in Victoria and SA they could make a profit.

    Holden workers are in the top tier of salaries and with overtime earn way more than people in comparative industries.

    “The Abbott government’s refusal to countenance further industry assistance should come as no surprise

    Yep they refused to give any more to the bottomless pit. Holden asked for more over what was promised because Ford up and left.

  207. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 16, 2013 3:51 pm

    But i do believe the comment i read where if Holden workers were paid the same salaries as the component manufacturers in Victoria and SA they could make a profit.

    I’ll believe what I can link to in context. It is not the wages that caused this, but the removal of Government assistance.

    While Holden workers this year made painful concessions to try to save their jobs, their wages weren’t the issue. In this part of the manufacturing sector, wages are only about 20% of expenses. The real issue has been the value of the Australian dollar, which has risen about 50% against both the Japanese yen and the US dollar. Meanwhile, the South Korean won has risen only around 6%. Even huge cuts in nominal wages would have been small bore stuff in this context. This hasn’t stopped workers and unions being blamed.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/12/holden-this-nauseating-job-loss-porn-fails-to-ask-the-hard-questions

    The Abbott government’s refusal to countenance further industry assistance should come as no surprise

    You forgot the money quote Neil

    in opposition, the Coalition’s firm policy was to cut A$500 million from the ALP government’s support package.

    Yes, they were going to remove the assistance needed to sustain while the dollar was high.

  208. Splatterbottom permalink
    December 16, 2013 4:18 pm

    The Holden wages “deal” was largely illusory.

    In 1991, the pre-enterprise bargaining award wage of a Holden entry level process worker was $462.80 a week. In 1992, Holden began enterprise bargaining and now a worker at that same classification level has a base rate of $1194.50 a week, a 158 per cent increase, or a compound increase of 4.4 per cent year on year for 22 years. Right now, base wage rates for process workers in the Holden enterprise agreement are in the $60,000 to $80,000 per year range and in recent times, “hardship payments” of $3750 were given to each worker.

    The modern award for such workers mandates base rates in the $37,000 to $42,000 range. This means that before we add any of the shift penalties, loadings, 26 allowances and the added cost of productivity restrictions, Holden begins each working day paying its workforce almost double what it should. After you add in the other employment costs, I estimate Holden’s workforce costs it somewhere close to triple the amount it should
    ….
    If the Holden workers went back on to the award, Holden would be miraculously transformed. Labour costs would drop by somewhere between 50 and 75 per cent. Productivity would skyrocket. No productivity inquiry would be needed. Holden might even make a profit and pay the country a dividend as return on its many years of “co-investment

    Holden should not get one cent for so long as it pays above award wages. It is not for ordinary Australian taxpayers to fund rapacious unions.

  209. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 16, 2013 4:20 pm

    Holden are suffering exactly the same problems that have afflicted most other manufacturers. Much of it comes down to a long history of plant degradation caused by insufficient upgrading and investment

    The union environment is a significant factor in this

  210. December 16, 2013 4:21 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘I’d have preferred some assistance, but our reputation for stable manufacturing and IR isn’t conducive to long term viability.’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    Yes-sir-eee. Always infer that unions and workers `create` unstable industrial relations, even if the company says otherwise. Yes-sir-eee, with my fancy book learnin` l can afford to ignore reality, uh-huh.

    And when difficult truths and fact knock at my door,
    https://theguttertrash.com/2013/12/11/its-over-holden-quits-australia/#comment-39684
    my fancy book learnin` taught me to not answer the door. Yess-siirrr-eee.

    #ignoringReality
    #FancyBookLearnin`
    #IworkForMyDaddy
    #SurfboardHitMyHead

  211. Walrus permalink
    December 16, 2013 4:30 pm

    I assume all those bleating over the death of Holden and Ford actually own one of their vehicles ?

  212. December 16, 2013 4:46 pm

    I assume all those bleating over the demise of Qantas actually own an Airbus A380?

  213. Walrus permalink
    December 16, 2013 5:47 pm

    I’m not bleating

  214. Splatterbottom permalink
    December 16, 2013 5:57 pm

    My current and two previous cars are/were Holdens. But the sad fact is that every Australian who owns a car has paid, on average, a few thousand extra for it purely to subsidise the higher wages paid to auto workers.

  215. December 16, 2013 6:27 pm

    “should not get one cent for so long as it pays above award wages.”

    I just luuuurve how people who don’t, and likely never will, do such jobs decide that the award rate must be ‘fair’ & reasonable. In truth, I’d say 90% of people on this thread have no fucking idea what being a production employee is like.
    These people are not without technical ability or skill at what they do. I wonder how many detractors could even stand up (on their feet, all day) & perform for a whole shift, let alone front up day after day after week after month after year.
    Ya see, y’all can act like a Holden (or any other manufacturing employee) worker is eminently replaceable, like a busted cog. But places like that run to the second & can’t afford to have untrained knuckledraggers being weak links along the line. So Holden, in part, is in the position it’s in because they (at least) recognise that they can’t just sack their whole workforce & hire monkeys for peanuts because the fucking company wouldn’t be efficient again for many, many months (at a minimum).
    This grants a certain leverage to keeping the workforce happy. They’re not just grunts who can be swapped for labour hire casuals at a whim in large numbers.

    Having been subject to several EBA’s in several companies, I recognise that the one at Holden went several bridges too far. A lot of the stuff I’ve read they have is an obstacle to progress in a competitive environment.

    I think Tom’s points about Union overreach & cross purposes has far more to do with the demise than wage pressures. In conjunction with what TB says about there just not being a demand for wht they’re selling. It doesn’t matter how efficient you are if no one wants to buy (or cannot afford to buy) your product.

    FWIW, I’ve never worked in a place that got one red cent of subsidy from the government or anyone else.

    * shakes head

    ** I feel for the components manufacturers too…and I have been one of them in the past. Ten years ago, the difference in wages between Holden & certain components manufacturers wasn’t that pronounced.

  216. December 16, 2013 6:29 pm

    I own a Holden, not that that means a fucking thing. I fail to see the gotcha that Inane & others who’ve made that statement seem to think they’re setting up.

  217. December 16, 2013 6:32 pm

    “I own a Holden”

    Well then, I think that makes you an authority on the matter then Boss, Congratulations!

    Now, please tell us what our opinions ought to be on this issue.

    Did I mention I own an A380…?

  218. December 16, 2013 6:39 pm

    I didn’t mean it that way, reb.

    I just noticed Inane, walrus & others seem to think that’s some kind of attack.

    If it makes you feel any better, I actually made parts for the model I own (not our only vehicle, just the only Holden). 😯

    I could honestly not give a fuck about cars, as long as they are reliable.

    I presume the taunt is meant to mean that ‘if you didn’t buy a Holden how can you complain about their demise’…but I don’t pretend to understand the inner minds of most of those who’ve used the meme.

  219. December 16, 2013 6:40 pm

    I’m not one for telling anyone else what their opinion should be. Just so that’s clear.

  220. December 16, 2013 6:46 pm

    I was kidding Boss! 🙂

    Based on the views of others that *apparently* you’re only entitled to comment on the Holden issue, if you in fact own one….. 😉

  221. December 16, 2013 6:48 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘FWIW, I’ve never worked in a place that got one red cent of subsidy from the government or anyone else.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘

    Bullshit Dunny. Unless you`ve had access to boardroom and accounts, you wouldn`t fcuking know, the directors aint going to gloat in front of you neither, if they are getting some type of `welfare`, and you`re overlooking the tax-code/stuff too.

  222. Splatterbottom permalink
    December 16, 2013 6:51 pm

    I get your point TBoss, especially about the other contributing factors. I just hate the way taxpayers are expected to kick in large wads of cash to the company which is then split with the Unions. It looks like crony capitalism at its worst. Plus we all pay too much for cars as they whack duty on the imports to prop up a corrupt and inefficient system.

  223. December 16, 2013 6:55 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘I’d say 90% of people on this thread have no fucking idea what being a production employee is like.
    These people are not without technical ability or skill at what they do. I wonder how many detractors could even stand up (on their feet, all day) & perform for a whole shift, let alone front up day after day after week after month after year.
    Ya see, y’all can act like a Holden (or any other manufacturing employee) worker is eminently replaceable,’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘

    Blow it out ya arse Dunny

  224. December 16, 2013 7:00 pm

    Blow it out your own.

    Of course I know if the company I work for is receiving government subsidies. 🙄

    You have no idea what my role is.

    I don’t work in the automotive manufacturing industry, now.

  225. December 16, 2013 7:01 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘*apparently* you’re only entitled to comment on the Holden issue, if you in fact own one’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘

    Yes reb, entitlement SA style, want to ignore all the damn welfare every other tax-payer is donating to Detroit, despite decades of crook management and crook product.

  226. December 16, 2013 7:08 pm

    ” I just hate the way taxpayers are expected to kick in large wads of cash to the company which is then split with the Unions. It looks like crony capitalism at its worst. Plus we all pay too much for cars as they whack duty on the imports to prop up a corrupt and inefficient system.”

    I agree with this. As I said, I work in unsupported industry outside of a metropolitan area, so it doesn’t even make the radar.

    It just annoys me when I sense a derision of the ‘worth’ of production employees, because most people who haven’t been in that position don’t comprehend the job or the value of the capability.
    It’s very easy to point the finger and say other people are being overpayed, from a distance.

    I also noted that I do recognise that there is plenty in Holden’s (it may have even been Toyota’s I read, last week) EBA that is counterproductive to efficiency & longevity of employment. Unions & employees can definitely get too greedy & short sighted during the bargaining process. But to really determine the ‘fairness’ of an agreement, you’d have to be privy to what was being traded for the payrise.

  227. December 16, 2013 7:10 pm

    @ 7:01…ignoring the first rule of holes…

  228. December 16, 2013 7:12 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘You have no idea what my role is.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘

    Don`t need to. Check your own words. The `only` way it could be true is , you have only ever had one job, and it is in your family/fathers business.

    (That would also make many `other` of your comment bullshit tho)

  229. December 16, 2013 7:16 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ignoring the first rule of holes’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    Pigs arse. the Kato is working fine.

  230. TB Queensland permalink
    December 16, 2013 7:39 pm

    I agree … Walruses bluster … 😛

  231. December 16, 2013 7:45 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘I also noted that I do recognise that there is plenty in Holden’s (it may have even been Toyota’s I read, last week) EBA that is counterproductive to efficiency & longevity of employment. Unions & employees can definitely get too greedy’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘

    l disagree Dunny. Greed is good, is the mantra, we don`t `Limit` boardroom salary`s, or even the requirement they are paid to an individual, and taxed here. Shareholders basically refuse to treat `all` of their employees equally, yes, most boards are glorified employees at the end of the day, and didn`t invest, nor create the company. Paid in the million$, often tens-of, and bonus money doesn`t extend further than the board, (another stock-holder stupidity in my book) the arguments that workers/unions are `greedy` is moot. Workers wages continued to go south in teh-usa to appease boardrooms, but they were eventually knifed, same will/is happening here. You don`t think auto-parts already being made in China.? Hint, they are.

  232. TB Queensland permalink
    December 16, 2013 7:59 pm

    (That would also make many `other` of your comment bullshit tho)

    I know which one of you is bullshittin’ and who actually has runs on the board on production issues … having worked in production (light engineering and manufacturing) … and 16 years in the auto industry …

  233. TB Queensland permalink
    December 16, 2013 8:06 pm

    I’ll revise that last … there is some truth in your statements TT but your “fogging” your point with politics …

  234. December 16, 2013 8:06 pm

    Oh look, uncle TB is havin a crack, too bad the throw-away line in brackets is used, not any of the meat-and-potato.

  235. December 16, 2013 8:18 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘but your “fogging” your point with politics’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    Not `fogging`, or trying to, just explaining the big picture as l see it.
    l know we differ on some `education/training` points, but it too is part of the picture.
    ++
    ln Aust. we are bleeding from the artery, good-paying, value-adding jobs, mostly via `free-trade`. Until the `artery` is sewn-up, this, that or the other (#training #Lean #export-focused #new-industry) is pointless. They can all be done in China too. Corporate welfare won`t help.

  236. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 16, 2013 8:19 pm

    “I also noted that I do recognise that there is plenty in Holden’s (it may have even been Toyota’s I read, last week) EBA that is counterproductive to efficiency & longevity of employment.”

    I have seen it stated several times all they have to do is pay Holden workers the same as the component suppliers who will also lose their jobs if Holden folds.

    Toyota workers also want to shut down for 3 weeks at Christmas whereas the company only wants to shut down for 10 days. Do these guys want to keep their jobs??

  237. IPA permalink
    December 16, 2013 8:20 pm

    This thread is too funny.

  238. December 16, 2013 8:35 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Toyota workers also want to shut down for 3 weeks at Christmas whereas the company only wants to shut down for 10 days. Do these guys want to keep their jobs??’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘

    lt won`t matter how much spouting TB + Dunny do,
    nor how much corporate bleating our teabags do,

    Toyota will go by 2017 too, if not earlier.

  239. Walrus permalink
    December 16, 2013 10:48 pm

    ” Do these guys want to keep their jobs??”

    Depends on what the taxpayer largely funded redundancy is for these parasites.

  240. Walrus permalink
    December 16, 2013 10:56 pm

    “I just luuuurve how people who don’t, and likely never will, do such jobs decide that the award rate must be ‘fair’ & reasonable. In truth, I’d say 90% of people on this thread have no fucking idea what being a production employee is like.”

    That’s as good as “you have never worn the uniform” therefore you can’t comment.

    If any company receives direct taxpayer funding they should have all their EBAs tossed out the window and all covered by that go onto Award.

    Why should any taxpayer fund these parasites?

  241. December 16, 2013 11:01 pm

    What about the boardroom and management that has run said company into extinction Walrus.?

  242. egg permalink
    December 17, 2013 6:01 am

    If not for the subsidies GM would have left Australia years ago, so its not the board’s fault, bipartisan folly on the part of successive Australian governments has created this problem.

  243. egg permalink
    December 17, 2013 6:09 am

    ‘AUSTRALIA’S biggest defence project is now in crisis, with the $8 billion construction of three Air Warfare Destroyers rocked by budget blowouts of almost $10 million a month amid fears it could eventually require a $1bn federal government bailout. In a new blow to the nation’s beleaguered manufacturing sector, an Australian National Audit Office report will today reveal that the AWD project was $106m over its $618m budget for 2012-13 – a wastage of more than $2m a week due to poor productivity in inefficient shipyards and excess costs for labour and materials.’

    Cameron Stewart / oz

  244. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 7:53 am

    If not for the subsidies GM would have left Australia years ago

    True. And, it is under this Government that subsidies were cut. Therefore, it is the Governments fault.

    They keep banging on about a ‘level playing field’, yet this Government pulled out exactly what other car manufacturing countries do for their companies, subsidies them. That meant Holden were no longer operating under a “level playing field”, which is why they pulled the plug.

    I guess that means if we stop subsidising mining magnates billions more than the car industry ever got they will go elsewhere? And why did Cadbury in Tasmania deserve that Government “handout”, yet Holden is not worthy of it, even though, as the numbers show, the roll on effect of employment from them runs into the many tens of thousands.

  245. egg permalink
    December 17, 2013 8:02 am

    Government shouldn’t subsidise manufacturing at all and its a good thing the monk had the bottle to pull the plug on the holden adventure.

    Likewise, the destroyers would have been cheaper to purchase from China.

  246. Dianne permalink
    December 17, 2013 8:06 am

    Egg – I am coming after you with a whisk.

  247. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 8:11 am

    egg, defense projects are going to be much harder to source without the pre-existing pool of qualified workers from which to draw on. Another example of the short-sightedness of this Governments decision to force the closure of Holden.

  248. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 8:13 am

    Government shouldn’t subsidise manufacturing at all

    If only the other car manufacturing countries felt the same way. Should we subisidise mining?

    the destroyers would have been cheaper to purchase from China.

    Yea, like companies in a communist country aren’t “subsidised”

  249. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 8:14 am

    Egg – I am coming after you with a whisk.

    I was under the impression that one was already scrambled.

  250. Walrus permalink
    December 17, 2013 8:42 am

    “What about the boardroom and management that has run said company into extinction Walrus.?”

    They would be on individual contracts based upon their performance.

    Now that’s an idea……………………..let’s put the entire Workforce on individual agreements………………………I seem to vaguely recall someone trying to do that sort of thing Australia wide around 2006 ……………LOL

  251. Walrus permalink
    December 17, 2013 8:45 am

    “Should we subisidise mining?”

    No.

    But how are we now subsidising Mining ?

  252. IPA permalink
    December 17, 2013 8:59 am

    The dinosaur that ate Holden

  253. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 9:04 am

    Walrus, like this, mainly in tax concessions, but also directly. And that is just federally

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-25/nrn-dist-mining-subsidies/4778042

  254. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 9:09 am

    Nice one IPA, Peter Costello blaming everything except what Holden management blamed, the removal of subsidies.

    Guess he wants Oz to become a closed state again? Fact is, it had survived for years with tariffs removed. That was nothing new. It had survived for years with Unions, again, nothing new. Let’s try and work out just what had changed? We know the dollar had been high for a few years, even back when Holden committed to beyond 2020, and it had every indication of that easing, so really, what had changed?

  255. egg permalink
    December 17, 2013 9:22 am

    ‘Let’s try and work out just what had changed?’

    GM recently paid off their GFC debt to the US guvmint and China made GM an offer they couldn’t refuse.

  256. Walrus permalink
    December 17, 2013 9:24 am

    Big difference between a subsidy or concession and a cash handout.

    Mining companies spend billions each year exploring for minerals a lot of which is futile exploration.

    Unless you want to deny them a tax deduction on exploration when they are successful ?

    At least they’ll pay it back in tax. What do we get from Holden ?

    Diddly Squat that’s our return

    No surer way to guarantee a drop off in exploration under your policy.

  257. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 9:24 am

    China made GM an offer they couldn’t refuse.

    Do you mean one that the Australian Government wouldn’t uphold? Or are you just postulating like you normally do?

  258. IPA permalink
    December 17, 2013 9:31 am

    “what Holden management blamed, the removal of subsidies.”

    No. They did not.

  259. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 9:32 am

    Unless you want to deny them a tax deduction on exploration when they are successful ?

    I am actually supportive of subsidies for mining. I am aware of the wealth they generate. I don’t understand the reasoning of good for one, bad for hte other.

    At least they’ll pay it back in tax. What do we get from Holden ?

    Jobs creation and a pool of talent that the mining industry often dip into. Along with the over $20 billion dollars it reportedly adds to our economy every year. (Should that be added?)

  260. IPA permalink
    December 17, 2013 9:33 am

    “Let’s try and work out just what had changed?”

    Steeply declining sales, for one thing.

  261. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 17, 2013 9:34 am

    JJ

    Yes what has changed?? Gillard said in March 2012 that Holden would be making cars for 10 years

    https://theguttertrash.com/2013/12/11/its-over-holden-quits-australia/#comment-39499

    “So, I’m pleased to be here today with the Premier, with Minister Combet, with Holden and Mike, to announce some good news. And the good news is that the future of General Motors is now secure in this country for the next decade
    .”

    From what i have read it is Ford quitting which made Holden break its promise. And Abbott did not take money away he was just unwilling to give any more.

  262. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 9:40 am

    Like most News Ltd articles, it is what is left out that is often the most revealing. From your link IPA

    The bottom line is we are losing money building cars in this country and there is no viable way to bridge that gap in the future.

    As I posted earlier on in this thread, while tariffs and the dollar were certainly an impact, they were not the final straw. This was

    What Holden needed was a further commitment of $150 million a year from the government through to 2020 – roughly $2000 a car built. With that, Mr Devereux could get the numbers to work. In return, Holden would continue making the VF Commodore and Cruze in Australia until 2017, and then commit to build GM’s next generation global car in Adelaide until 2020.

    https://theguttertrash.com/2013/12/11/its-over-holden-quits-australia/#comment-39834

    Then, back to your article

    The unfortunate fact is that as I stand here today, GM already has all the information it needs to know that our Next Gen business case is not viable.

    Yes, and the fact that had changed, was the Government had made it clear that those subsidies were not forthcoming. That was the information it needed. And the Government had become very clear with their messages. Blatantly so.

  263. Walrus permalink
    December 17, 2013 9:42 am

    And how come do we put these together successfully but not a bloody Commodore…………

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenworth#Operations

    And guess what………….?

    Without government handouts

  264. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 9:43 am

    From what i have read it is Ford quitting which made Holden break its promise

    That is obviously because you refuse to read any links I put up.

    And Abbott did not take money away he was just unwilling to give any more.

    Case in point

    in opposition, the Coalition’s firm policy was to cut A$500 million from the ALP government’s support package.

    https://theguttertrash.com/2013/12/11/its-over-holden-quits-australia/#comment-39863

  265. Walrus permalink
    December 17, 2013 9:47 am

    And here you can catch a “no government handout” bus

    http://www.busaustralia.com/body.html

  266. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 17, 2013 9:48 am

    JJ

    I read your link. It said in Opposition however they are now in govt. I have not seen a post saying Abbott has taken away money, however they will not give anymore.

    And you could make the same comment about any business about to go bust. It went bust because the govt did not give money.

    Holden failed because of human greed and Union stupidity.

  267. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 9:55 am

    It said in Opposition however they are now in govt.

    So, we shouldn’t believe what they said in opposition?

  268. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 9:56 am

    Holden failed because of human greed and Union stupidity.

    Holden failed because of Liberal greed and stupidity.

    In the unlikely event that Labor won the election, Holden would have stayed. Labor was promising $1.5 billion in industry assistance between now and 2015 and $300 million a year after that.

    The Coalition said only that it would strip $500 million from that pre-2015 funding and it had a nebulous commitment to $200 million a year for five years between 2015-2020.

    The formula was simple and unambiguous. Holden told the Coalition that whatever it decided, it would need that decision by Christmas so it could forward plan. It was not an ultimatum per se, just a clinical business decision.

    If the government were unwilling to keep funding Holden, it would have to relocate.

    The government refused to give Holden an answer. It commissioned a Productivity Commission inquiry instead that would not report until March 2014.

    And now the government is solemn and supposedly concerned that the GM board in Detroit has decided to go. The government thought Holden was bluffing. Clearly it was not.

    It was a bizarre way to conduct business with a multinational.

    http://www.afr.com/p/national/government_treatment_of_holden_was_QwElLu2O3lse6cNIradzzI

  269. IPA permalink
    December 17, 2013 10:11 am

    The Button Plan: “The overarching aim of the scheme was to make the motor vehicle industry in Australia more efficient by consolidation of resources, allowing the import tariffs to be gradually reduced. This in turn would theoretically expose the local industry to increased competition from imported products, fostering improvement in local vehicles and creating the basis for a competitive export industry.”

    How’d that work out, do you reckon?

  270. Walrus permalink
    December 17, 2013 10:16 am

    “Holden failed because of Liberal greed and stupidity.”

    What a load of crap ?

    Exactly what “greed” and exactly why should workers on Award wages have their taxes spent on a fat parasitic Holden workforce ?

    The Unions and their members OWN this. They over reached and the same is true of Qantas.

    I have already provided Truck and Bus companies assembling and manufacturing here

    And this bit is just completely unsubstantiated ……….

    “……….The government thought Holden was bluffing. Clearly it was not…………”

  271. IPA permalink
    December 17, 2013 10:17 am

    The theory of the Button Plan was correct: it would make the local industry lean and mean, ensuring its future. Only, instead of having to survive or fail on their own results, the car companies received corporate welfare from nervous successive governments who weren’t brave enough to allow the experiment run its course. Instead of making them lean and mean, this made the local car companies comfortable, fat, and lazy. We’ve just seen the inevitable consequences.

  272. Walrus permalink
    December 17, 2013 10:18 am

    JJ

    I recommend you read the Holden EBA. It is available via Google

  273. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 10:19 am

    How’d that work out, do you reckon?

    Well, until the current Government forced Holden out. Holden had a strong export industry until the dollar rose, and, there was no reason it wouldn’t have expanded again once the dollar settled. Their large cars were well known for their reliability and construction, particularly in law enforcement circles. All they need was certainty. Something this Government promised, but wouldn’t deliver.

  274. Walrus permalink
    December 17, 2013 10:21 am

    “Instead of making them lean and mean, this made the local car companies comfortable, fat, and lazy. We’ve just seen the inevitable consequences.”

    Exactly.

    If you are going to open up your industry to competition from the World then you also have to adopt a lot of Worlds Best Practice. You cant have an Industrial System still stuck in the 1970s

  275. Walrus permalink
    December 17, 2013 10:25 am

    “Their large cars were well known for their reliability and construction, particularly in law enforcement circles”

    A few thousand exported Muscle Cars is not going to keep them open

  276. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 10:29 am

    A few thousand exported Muscle Cars is not going to keep them open

    GM disagreed. From my links, it was clear that GM had a plan to keep Holden going, but were thwarted by the Government.

  277. egg permalink
    December 17, 2013 10:37 am

    ‘Do you mean one that the Australian Government wouldn’t uphold? Or are you just postulating like you normally do?’

    China has a huge demand for cars, GM reckons its more lucrative for them to build them there.

  278. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 10:38 am

    I recommend you read the Holden EBA

    I am aware of the EBA they have, and under which they have operated for years, successfully. I am also aware of what has changed recently that might have changed the course of GM’s plans here. Many here appear to want to ignore that, and focus on things that have long been in play.

  279. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 10:40 am

    GM reckons its more lucrative for them to build them there.

    That may well be the case, but it was also viable for them to produce from here, as the numbers showed. Well, before the Liberal Government cut them loose anyway.

  280. TB Queensland permalink
    December 17, 2013 10:42 am

    How’d that work out, do you reckon?

    As it should have, if GM had improved its resources, management, marketing, IR and, (more particularly) its product … but they didn’t same old same old … basic cars with high prices …

    … didn’t I put a link up yesterday about the drop in both Ford and GM sales … and I’ll remind all again they are US companies not Australian …

    Funny how people lose sight of free markets, competition, capitalism* …

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    That’s as good as “you have never worn the uniform” therefore you can’t comment.

    That may seem very clever to you, Wally but there is some truth in it … comment by all means but if your comment is downright wrong then those who have done it usually know better …

    … you may never have noticed in yer ivory tower but I for one have always conceded to your expertise on matters of tax and finance … investment is always a risk game … 😉

    BS is BS … and I tend to recognise comments from those who have done it in the real world rather than those who just think they know how its done … that’s the only reason I ask others and why I share my work experience …

    Toillette wasn’t defending anyone (he actually said that) but he was pointing out some home truths about easy targets … blaming unions alone is wrong … but they do have to wear some of the blame as do governments past and present and management teams in the US and here …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Speaking of wearing the uniform …

    Just got some video of a mate working in the Phillipines … he’s in uniform … I’ll post it later …

  281. egg permalink
    December 17, 2013 10:44 am

    ‘it was also viable for them to produce from here’

    As my colleagues have pointed out, that is not true.

  282. IPA permalink
    December 17, 2013 10:50 am

    “under which they have operated for years, successfully”

    Define successfully.

  283. IPA permalink
    December 17, 2013 10:51 am

    Are you a successful business if you can’t keep the doors open without huge cash injections from taxpayers? I don’t think so.

  284. Splatterbottom permalink
    December 17, 2013 10:51 am

    The export of Monaros was not a success and stopped in 2006.

    Gillard was so easily conned:

    This co-investment will support thousands of jobs at Holden that would have been lost if the company had stopped making cars in Australia,” Ms Gillard said.
    “This partnership will see GM Holden continue making cars in Australia until at least 2022.”

    It would have been easy for Hockey to throw some more money and pose as a saviour. Turns out he has more substance than Gillard. Or at least less desire to divert taxpayers’ money to greedy unions. Labor was very big on this.

    By the time the Royal Commissions are done a few more layers of Unionland corruption will be peeled back.

  285. Walrus permalink
    December 17, 2013 10:55 am

    “From my links, it was clear that GM had a plan to keep Holden going,”

    From my links, it was clear that the taxpayer didn’t like the GM plan to keep Holden going,

  286. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 10:56 am

    As my colleagues have pointed out, that is not true.

    Care to highlight that? Because I showed you the breakdown of numbers that said that it is true

  287. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 10:57 am

    From my links, it was clear that the taxpayer didn’t like the GM plan to keep Holden going,

    From my links, it was clear that the Government didn’t like the GM plan to keep Holden going,

    Fixed

  288. egg permalink
    December 17, 2013 11:04 am

    ‘Care to highlight that? Because I showed you the breakdown of numbers that said that it is true’

    I see your numbers and raise you …..

    ‘The combined vehicle sales in China so far this year have overtaken those in 2012 as the market tapped the growth momentum, the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers said Tuesday.

    ‘Deliveries of passenger cars and commercial vehicles rose 14.1 percent from a year earlier to above 2 million units in November. The sales from January to November hit 19.9 million units, up 13.5 percent – the second highest accumulative growth rate archived by the market this year.’

    China Daily

  289. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 11:10 am

    Really egg, that doesn’t prove anything about Holdens local viability. Don’t play poker with Old Maid cards. Just a hint

  290. Walrus permalink
    December 17, 2013 11:19 am

    So JJ I assume you would be quite happy to see the government hand over a few hundred million to Qantas as well ?

  291. TB Queensland permalink
    December 17, 2013 11:22 am

    JJ – I put this link up a couple of days ago … they are for 2012 … 2013 won’t be out yet …

    Make sure you read ALL the article and then the numbers at the end …

    GM vehicles are not viable here … bloody hell, they were/are failing in the USA …

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/4wds-lead-car-sales-to-record-highs-20130104-2c850.html

  292. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 11:35 am

    I understand that times were tough for Holden TB, there is no denying that. But, they had been through tougher times, and, as mentioned, the figures HAD added up.

    Manufacturing IS a tough, low margin business. And, it takes commitment to want to keep it going. Obviously this was not a commitment the Government wanted to take.

    And yes, the figures are interesting. Holden at number two, and their two main cars at 4 and 5

    Not exactly a basket case. Imagine what could be achieved once the dollar settled back where it belongs.

    Guess we will never know.

  293. Walrus permalink
    December 17, 2013 11:57 am

    ” … bloody hell, they were/are failing in the USA …”

    Really…………………..?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23451243

  294. Walrus permalink
    December 17, 2013 12:13 pm

    “The workers probably want Holden to go”

    That crossed my mind too SB

    The ones that will suffer are those in the smaller engineeering workshops etc not employed by Holden on Award wages.

    In the end there was a major incentive for long term Holden workers to see the joint fail because of the obscene size of their payouts

  295. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 12:17 pm

    It’s not hard to see why Holden has failed. Holden’s management has given control of how they run their production to their unions.

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/comment/holden-the-car-makers-australian-exit-is-a-good-thing-20131214-2zdvv.html#ixzz2ngqhB5OE

    What a load of rubbish. I get that a lot of ‘free marketers’ don’t like Unions, but the fact is, Holden survived for years with them (running the company even?). Again. no mention in htat article of the one thing that had changed recently. Look everywhere, but the source.

    I also wonder if that executive director of Independent Contractors Australia Ken Phillips is this Ken Phillips

    http://www.ipa.org.au/people/ken-phillips

  296. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 12:19 pm

    In the end there was a major incentive for long term Holden workers to see the joint fail because of the obscene size of their payouts

    The company has been downsizing since the GFC. Any who had wanted it would have taken it by now.

  297. IPA permalink
    December 17, 2013 12:23 pm

    “Imagine what could be achieved once the dollar settled back where it belongs.”

    And where is that, exactly?

  298. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 12:26 pm

    And where is that, exactly?

    How long is a piece of string, exactly?

    But, this is perhaps a good indication. Obviously, quite a bit lower than it currently is.

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/glenn-stevens-says-aussie-dollar-needs-to-fall-further-20131213-2zapf.html

  299. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 17, 2013 12:30 pm

    Let us continue to go round and round the mulberry bush.

    All Gillard had to do was give Ford more money and they would have stayed. And if Ford had stayed Holden would have stayed. Holden is leaving because Ford is leaving and therefore wanted even more money.

    So it is Gillards fault.

  300. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 12:35 pm

    Wow Neal, you should be on the national archery team with a bow pull like that 😉

  301. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 17, 2013 12:51 pm

    There are plenty of workers who become quite ambivalent about whether a company fails or succeeds, they look at lightly taxed redundancy payments that add up to several years pay, and decide that this represents part of their retirement nest egg. Motivation for business success disappears, replaced by a desire to get the fat cheque.

  302. egg permalink
    December 17, 2013 1:39 pm

    I agrre with Neil, its all Gillard’s fault.

  303. public toilet permalink
    December 17, 2013 2:44 pm

    Well I certainly wasn’t bullshiting.

    Nor was I speaking in broken cliched ignoramese.

  304. public toilet permalink
    December 17, 2013 2:48 pm

    Shorter term Holden employees. Those likely to have bigger mortgages & younger families. They don’t have much to gain from a redundancy payment…& presumably still have many years of work ahead of them.

    A permanent job is far more valuable than a redundancy payout, unless retirement was approaching soon anyway.

  305. IPA permalink
    December 17, 2013 3:09 pm

    “A permanent job”

    Who has one of those (apart from certain public servants)?

  306. December 17, 2013 3:44 pm

    There are plenty of boardrooms who become quite ambivalent about whether a company fails or succeeds, they look at lightly taxed back-dated options that add up to several years pay, and decide that this represents part of their retirement nest egg. Motivation for business success disappears, replaced by a desire to manipulate the stock-price.
    #DanglingInHotWaterAsUsual

  307. Walrus permalink
    December 17, 2013 3:55 pm

    “…& presumably still have many years of work ahead of them.”

    Presumable in one of those “Green” jobs that Gillard with the help of Milne created.

    Afterall SA is the state most reliant on wind power so there should be heaps of “Green” jobs there. ………..So that’s SA fixed

    As for Victoria they might need to move to the La Trobe Valley where there are heaps of Gren jobs thanks to brown coal being phased out…………..So that’s Victoria fixed

    If all else fails well………………………..did I mention good old Green Tasmania ?????

  308. December 17, 2013 3:57 pm

    That`s really funny lpad`osy.
    The Costello dinosaur is spanking the Keating dinosaur for being a better teabag and applying his agenda. 😆 Nice find.
    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/the-dinosaur-that-ate-holden/story-fni0cwl5-1226784404512

  309. December 17, 2013 5:31 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘In the end there was a major incentive for long term Holden workers to see the joint fail because of the obscene size of their payouts’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘

    Wow. This is some wild and wooley blubbering Walrus.

    You do realize even if the teabag-wet-dream of the `auto` industry never being unionized and workers only got bread-and-water, holden still wouldn`t have been saved from it`s own crap boardrooms and managements that decided to build crap/wrong product.

    Bread-and-water workers are such a bullshit argument teabags, the money the biz saves nickel and dime-ing its workforce, is not worth the continual cycle of hiring, training workforce, that rapidly leaves.

  310. Splatterbottom permalink
    December 17, 2013 5:46 pm

    “holden still wouldn`t have been saved from it`s own crap boardrooms and managements that decided to build crap/wrong product.”

    That’s what subsidies and protectionism do: encourage bad management and union avarice. If ever there was an enterprise not worth saving it is Holden.

  311. Walrus permalink
    December 17, 2013 5:51 pm

    “………holden still wouldn`t have been saved from it`s own crap boardrooms and managements that decided to build crap/wrong product. ”

    Wrong………!

    The product might not have been as popular here as it once was but they needed to export to survive anyway.

    They didn’t so they die.

    I dont see you sheeting blame home on Hawke, Gillard and Rudd for letting Nissan (1992),Ford (2013) and Mitsubishi (2008) go

    So how do you explain those 3 ?

    Blame management again seems to be your only excuse.

    So do you support the government bailing out Qantas with $ ?

    Afterall they have a supposed highly skilled featherbedded workforce as well.

  312. egg permalink
    December 17, 2013 5:56 pm

    The free marketeers have won this debate.

  313. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 17, 2013 6:11 pm

    A permanent job is far more valuable than a redundancy payout, unless retirement was approaching soon anyway.

    I agree, generally.

    But the lure of a big redundancy payment affects the behaviour of some employees, they talk about it, they know it represents their best opportunity to get a enough to pay off the mortgage. There are some who (perceive they) have more to gain by business failure than by business success.

  314. December 17, 2013 6:15 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Hawke, HOWARD +premiers, Gillard and Rudd for letting Nissan (1992),Ford (2013) and Mitsubishi (2008)’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘

    can be blamed for allowing them too much access to taxpayer-nipple,

    NOT,
    holden still wouldn`t have been saved from it`s own crap boardrooms and managements that decided to build crap/wrong product.

  315. December 17, 2013 6:29 pm

    And here`s the answer to the rest of ya`blubbering.
    https://theguttertrash.com/2013/12/05/qantas-in-chaos/#comment-39156

  316. TB Queensland permalink
    December 17, 2013 7:43 pm

    This is what really pisses me off …

    JJ’s retort …

    And yes, the figures are interesting. Holden at number two, and their two main cars at 4 and 5

    Not exactly a basket case. Imagine what could be achieved once the dollar settled back where it belongs.

    Guess we will never know.

    1. Toyota – 218,176 (up 20.1 per cent)

    2. Holden – 114,665 (down 9.1 per cent)

    3. Mazda 103,886 (up 17.6)

    4. Hyundai 91,536 (up 5.2)

    5. Ford 90,408 (down 0.9)

    … provide statistical data and still people don’t get it …

    … GM (forget the sentimental Holden tag) @ No 2 BUT down 9.1% … Ford @ No 4 BUT down 0.9% ….

    … now look at all the other marques Toyota – up, Mazda – up, Hyundai – up …

    … vehicle sales have always been a numbers game – product out the door – that’s why you should always negotiate a price …

    … GM and Ford are losing it … Nissan’s target in the very late 60’s was 13% of the state and national sales figures … (when I sold 180B’s and 120Y’s, Wally! 😉 )

  317. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 8:20 pm

    GM and Ford are losing it

    So your solution is “throw in the towel”

    2nd largest seller in the country obviously isn’t good enough any more

    … provide statistical data and still people don’t get it …

    I do get it TB, but, as the saying goes, lies, damned lies, and statistics

    The previous year this was measured against was 132,923, up from 119,568 the year before that. Pick the right cycle, and your figures can tell any story you want.

    http://www.fcai.com.au/news/news/2011/all/257/new-vehicle-sales-top-the-magic-million

    http://www.fcai.com.au/news/news/2010/all/234/new-vehicle-market-ends-strong-year-with-record-december-

    As I said earlier, yes, times are tough, but, No 2 is not to be scoffed at. Obviously, when the going gets tough, Tone gets going. And takes the jobs with him

  318. December 17, 2013 8:21 pm

    Rumor, General Motors is going to open 5-plants in teh-usa. Flint Michigan, ?-Indiana, Toledo-Ohio, and 2 other locations l didn`t catch. Has anybody seen more on this.?

  319. December 17, 2013 8:24 pm

    TB, channel 7two, operation eagle-claw

  320. TB Queensland permalink
    December 17, 2013 8:38 pm

    JJ … you may be interested in knowing (I know Wally is) that I studied stats and know all the cliches … but raw figures don’t lie … and the auto industry relies heavily on them … defend General Motors USA all you want … but the cars they build are … quite frankly shite!

    It takes people a long time to figure that out … as you demonstrate … but the facts are the facts … Hockey is a Fuckwit™ you and I know that and a quite a few people who are switched on but even Fuckwits™ Fluke It soemtimes … have you considered that Hockey may have more info than you and id simply ‘playing” the issue …?

    +++++++++++++++

    Will check TZ …

  321. December 17, 2013 8:47 pm

    Too Late TB, *damn-it*, l only caught the last 5-mins.

  322. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 17, 2013 9:07 pm

    defend General Motors USA all you want

    I’m not defending GM, I’m defending Holden. I’ll admit GM make crap. Holden don’t.

    but raw figures don’t lie

    No, but they can mislead, as I just showed the “down 9.1 per cent” figure was misleading. And the raw figures supplied by the outgoing CEO showed that their figures added up. Until the Government pulled the subsidies.

    ave you considered that Hockey may have more info than you and id simply ‘playing” the issue …?

    Briefly, but, going on their 100 day record, it is unlikely. Everything they have done to date has been ideological. This looks no different. Although, glad to see someone here admit the hand Hockey played in Holdens demise.

  323. December 17, 2013 9:52 pm

    Sorry Jagged, you`re being punked. Mr-Eleventy had info than the general public.
    `Defending` holden, as if it is truly separate from GM is wrong, holden is just an `out-post` of GM. ln this era, no amount of corporate welfare will save`em, no amount of `slave`labor conditions will either.

  324. December 17, 2013 10:15 pm

    Mr-Eleventy had more info than the general public.

  325. Dianne permalink
    December 18, 2013 4:59 am

    TB – according to an American radio report I heard yesterday, the car industry in the US is showing a remarkable turnaround. A Wall St Journal report in Sept this year described car sales, including vehicles made by GM, as ‘soaring’ although not to pre-slump levels. GM shares are up 5 per cent.

  326. egg permalink
    December 18, 2013 6:52 am

    ‘Although, glad to see someone here admit the hand Hockey played in Holdens demise.’

    Bullshit, it was all Xi’s doing.

  327. egg permalink
    December 18, 2013 6:59 am

    GM shares are up because they paid off their loan from the taxpayer after the GFC and they are going into China.

    The other thing is that the US has a solid home base to sell cars into, because of their large population. By comparison we do not and when our dollar is high we can’t export, its fairly straight forward.

  328. egg permalink
    December 18, 2013 8:02 am

    ‘The global boss of General Motors, Dan Akerson, says it is too expensive to manufacture cars in Australia – an ominous sign for Toyota, which is reviewing the future of its Altona facility after Holden’s decision to shut its car factory in 2017.’

    Joshua Dowling / Daily Terror

  329. TB Queensland permalink
    December 18, 2013 10:41 am

    Di, this article will highlight what I’ve been trying to explain … GM is actually No 12 in sales in the US BUT check what national marques are above it … six are Asian … this has been the case for some years now both in the US and Europe …

    How Jeep even gets on the list still amazes me … and particularly at seven …

    GM is not doing as well as it should … in a home market … dribbling over Holden as a marque these days is silly it is a foreign car manufacturer … Australia no longer has “unique” models …

    http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/12/november-2013-usa-auto-sales-brand-sales-figures-rankings.html

    Maybe its because I don’t get emotional over cars … they just get me from one place to the next and back again … or after 16 years in the industry I simply see it, as it is a business, just another means to make money … (although the trick was/is always to provide good, personal service — to the owners …)

    Throwing good money after bad is not the answer … investing the possible “handout” in other “Australian” manufacturing concepts would be much more sensible …

  330. egg permalink
    December 18, 2013 1:50 pm

    Government should invest in new manufacturing, like the very fast train project, but it would be more popular if they sold bonds for infrastructure building.

  331. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 18, 2013 2:06 pm

    Maybe its because I don’t get emotional over cars

    I don’t get (overly) emotional over cars either TB. But I do get emotional over jobs, especially productive, world class jobs such as those in the automotive manufacturing industry, which has shown that it CAN compete internationally when the field is levelled. Yes, tariffs made it hard, as did higher wages and better working conditions. But quality and smarter working practices helped even those offsets, and still could, as the figures shown by Mike Devereux showed. What was also needed was for the Government to match what other Governments were supplying, particularly in times of the high dollar. Our Government showed that it was not prepared to do that, even though, as other figures showed, it was not a welfare payment, but more an investment, as we reaped back far more within our economy than what we put into the individual car companies, so is not “Throwing good money after bad”.

    But fair enough, it is the right of the Government of the day to implement their agenda as they wish. But it is also the right of the community to acknowledge the role played by the Government for the damage that may be caused by their decisions. As has been noted several times in this thread alone, it is on record that had Labor won the election, Holden would not have left. They had made the commitment under their arrangement. The LIberals showed that they were not going to honour that arrangement, so you can draw your own conclusion from that, but to me, the choice is clear. Labor would fight for blue collar jobs, the Liberals won’t.

  332. egg permalink
    December 18, 2013 2:16 pm

    ‘it is on record that had Labor won the election, Holden would not have left.’

    I doubt that, it was a commercial decision. Anyway, we don’t need to make cars nobody wants.

    The future is now, we need to start planning to build very fast rail or hyperloop and get the jump on the yanks.

    http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/is-elon-musks-hyperloop-already-killing-californias-high-speed-rail

  333. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 18, 2013 2:23 pm

    “it is on record that had Labor won the election, Holden would not have left. T

    I do not think that is true. The thing on the record was that Holden would make cars for the next 10 years and that was announced by Gillard in 2012. So somebody lied. When Ford left it meant that Holden wanted even more money than what was promised in 2012. That is something Abbott refused to do.

    Anyway that is the way i see it.

    And also i do believe what i have read elsewhere. Everybody is worried about the component suppliers losing their jobs as well. All Holden had to do was pay the Holden workers the same wages as the production supplies and Holden could have made a profit.

  334. egg permalink
    December 18, 2013 2:23 pm

    From that link …

    ‘Looked at cynically, the Hyperloop was just a cleverly-disguised piece of anti-CHSR propaganda, an ostentatious display of Musk’s genius and billions masking average NIMBY-ism. Musk himself has acknowledged that the Hyperloop will probably never materialize.’

  335. Dianne permalink
    December 18, 2013 2:39 pm

    Thanks TB – I am not emotional about cars either. They make my eyes glaze over. However a love baby Citroens (circa 1974) and Morris Minors (green and made by God at the time of Creation).

    I have neither. I am married to a sensible neo-liberal.

  336. Dianne permalink
    December 18, 2013 2:40 pm

    However I love ….

  337. December 18, 2013 3:41 pm

    “Morris Minors (green and made by God at the time of Creation).”

    OMG!

    A Morris Minor (British racing green) was my first ever car!! Loved it to bits…

    Complete with the crank handle for winding it up on a cold Winter’s morning…. 🙂

  338. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 18, 2013 3:43 pm

    Unfortunately Neil of Sydney, it was very apparent that Holden would stay under Labor

    In the unlikely event that Labor won the election, Holden would have stayed. Labor was promising $1.5?billion in industry assistance between now and 2015 and $300 million a year after that.

    http://www.afr.com/p/national/government_treatment_of_holden_was_QwElLu2O3lse6cNIradzzI

  339. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 18, 2013 3:55 pm

    JJ

    You have repeated the same thing like 5 million times. How about changing the station for a change.

    And Correy is a died in the wool ALP supporter.

  340. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 18, 2013 4:35 pm

    You have repeated the same thing like 5 million times

    Probably because you keep saying that it isn’t true. You obviously recall me posting it, then you say it isn’t true. It is not an opinion he is offering, it is a simple fact which was an arrangement you yourself have highlighted between Holden and Gillard.

    You even managed to call Gillard a liar because Tony Abbott changed the arrangement, which basically meant the deal could no longer be upheld

    Quite a remarkable act of sophistry imo. The Liberals renig on an arrangement, and that is somehow Labors fault?

    What this does highlight is that, under the arrangement Labor took to the election, Holden would have stayed. The Liberals did not honor that arrangement, and Holden left. The conclusion is very simple to see after that.

  341. egg permalink
    December 18, 2013 4:42 pm

    ‘The Liberals did not honor that arrangement, and Holden left. The conclusion is very simple to see after that.’

    You remind me of someone from the Deltoid School for Splitting Hairs, nevertheless its a good thing Holden is leaving.

  342. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 18, 2013 4:50 pm

    Splitting Hairs

    Good one egg, blaming Labor for the Liberals stuff up is just “Splitting Hairs”

    Is anybody supposed to take you seriously at any time?

  343. egg permalink
    December 18, 2013 4:52 pm

    Its not a stuff up, GM would have gone sooner or later so Hockey bit the bullet.

  344. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 18, 2013 5:00 pm

    GM would have gone sooner or later

    That is your opinion, my opinion was that the Holden brand had a long way to go. The Liberals made their death reality, by their own doings.

    Of course, if you want a Government that folds at the first hurdle, so be it, it looks to be that is what we have.

    Personally, I prefer a Government that is prepared to fight for its citizens and their well being.

  345. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 18, 2013 5:01 pm

    Hockey bit the bullet.

    Although it is refreshing to see another one admit that it was the actions of this Government that caused the end of Holden in Australia. I think that is two now willing to admit it.

  346. egg permalink
    December 18, 2013 5:24 pm

    No, with Joe it was all theatrics, GM had already made up their mind before his brief excursion from the script and he knew it … at least in his heart.

  347. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 18, 2013 5:29 pm

    GM had already made up their mind

    Again, that is only your opinion, and directly contradicts the story that came out of Holden, who were appalled at what they were witnessing during the Question Time when Hockey and his team attacked them and precipitated their withdrawal.

  348. egg permalink
    December 18, 2013 5:39 pm

    ‘Again, that is only your opinion…’

    Can you give me a quote from management which shows their angst at Joe’s outburst?

  349. Splatterbottom permalink
    December 18, 2013 5:53 pm

    “I do get emotional over jobs, especially productive, world class jobs such as those in the automotive manufacturing industry, which has shown that it CAN compete internationally when the field is leveled.”

    There, there. Dry your pants and tell me what on earth is a world class job? On an assembly line??? I get that the Holden jobs are world-class expensive jobs. That is what you get when the IR system is skewed to the unions, at least in the interim before the government stops subsidising said jobs. Then there are no jobs at all.

    Also, according to Gillard, Holden agreed to keep making cars until 2022. Why is Hockey or Abbott to blame when GM comes back for more cash instead of sticking to its promise?

  350. Walrus permalink
    December 18, 2013 5:57 pm

    So JJ are you also blaming Gillard for Ford’s departure ?

    And Mitsubishi ?

    The government turned off the life support for a brain dead patient. Too much money being spent with no hope of salvation. Seems the patient died of basically self inflicted wounds.

    What I’d like to know is why is the taxpayer forking out $ millions or to bury the stinking corpse of Holden Unionism.

    They’ve got 3 or 4 years to get off their collective fat lazy arses to retrain themselves. Why are we paying for it. ?

  351. egg permalink
    December 18, 2013 5:59 pm

    Its a disgrace and I’m not happy.

  352. December 18, 2013 6:59 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘it was very apparent that Holden would stay under Labor’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    .
    That smells like afr propaganda Jagged, GM may be re-tooling in teh-usa, and have tooled up in China/Thailand, pissing around with a couple of tiny out-posts at the arse-end of the planet may not be worth the time and distraction from GM`s main-game.

  353. egg permalink
    December 18, 2013 7:36 pm

    What teabag said.

  354. December 18, 2013 7:54 pm

    “Its a disgrace and I’m not happy.”

    😆

  355. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 18, 2013 7:55 pm

    Can you give me a quote from management which shows their angst at Joe’s outburst?

    Again? This is a repetitive site, I’ll give it that.

    It was the text message that sounded the death knell for Holden as a manufacturer in Australia.

    ”Are you seeing this question time attack on Holden?” read the text message, sent by a company insider. ”Taunting [Holden] to leave. It’s extraordinary.”

    ……………………..
    While listening to the words of Mr Hockey and Mr Truss, the Holden boss was on the phone to Detroit, where it was after 10pm.

    Mr Devereux informed GM headquarters of the events in Australia. The decision was swift. Detroit pulled the pin. Mr Devereux would take up his position as vice-president of sales, marketing and aftersales for GM’s consolidated international operations, based in Shanghai.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/taunts-in-parliament-and-text-brought-about-general-motors-holdens-exit-from-australia-20131211-2z6i6.html#ixzz2noYvxCf5

    I don’t recall any such scenario when MItsubishi or Ford left. There’s were internal decisions not prompted by our countries politics.

  356. egg permalink
    December 18, 2013 8:40 pm

    ‘read the text message, sent by a company insider.’

    Doesn’t pass muster, but I concede a point, Devereux was quick off the mark. If GM was looking for a catalyst, Joe gave them the incentive. Good man, make a great PM.

    GM had already decided it was too marginal in Oz and would go elsewhere for good commercial reasons.

    Holden has all the qualities of a state owned operation in China.

  357. December 18, 2013 9:16 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Holden has all the qualities of a state owned operation in China.’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    ` 😆 ` 😆 ` 😆 ` 😆 @ egg

  358. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 18, 2013 9:50 pm

    Holden were going, that’s it. Hockey knew it so he pressed them to make the announcement at a time convenient for the government rather than convenient for GM.

    Is there any doubt about that?

  359. December 18, 2013 9:54 pm

    “Is there any doubt about that?”

    No, but perhaps he could’ve handled it a little more diplomatically…

  360. egg permalink
    December 18, 2013 10:02 pm

    Hockey took advantage of the moment, being a showman, and it did him no harm.

  361. December 18, 2013 10:20 pm

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘handled it a little more diplomatically’ ‘ ‘ ‘
    Mr-Eleventy may be building a reputation so the teabags have an alternative, if Mr-Rabbit retains his `underwhelming` polling. As yomm says @9.50, Mr-Eleventy wedged Deveraux into pulling the trigger while it suits the govt, not the corp.

    Yes, yomm l agree with @9.50

  362. December 18, 2013 10:23 pm

    The test for Mr-Eleventy will be,
    Can he keep Toyota and Qantas OFF the welfare nipple.?

  363. egg permalink
    December 19, 2013 6:22 am

    Qantas can fly away, we don’t need icons now that we have become of age.

  364. egg permalink
    December 19, 2013 7:13 am

    ‘CABINET ministers have hit back at another plea for industry assistance, amid fears of setting a “dangerous precedent” if they give in to demands from food processor SPC Ardmona to help cover its rising costs.

    ‘The government is close to rejecting the company’s call for aid out of frustration that it needs taxpayer cash to generate a 14 per cent rate of return, sparking concerns that there would be no end to the list of companies wanting the same help.’

    David Crowe / Oz

  365. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 19, 2013 9:01 am

    there would be no end to the list of companies wanting the same help.

    Oh, like Cadbury?

    I wonder if the mining magnates are getting nervous about their diesel fuel rebate, after all, isn’t that just another form of “industry assistance”?

    Holden were going,

    Again, just your opinion. The opinion of GM was different. The Government made it a foregone conclusion however directly through their actions. They refuse to offer assistance to companies fighting to protect Australian jobs (I always thought that was a Governments role?), and yet are pleading with child care workers to give them money. Is this some form of “Government Assistance” that Industry is exempt from?

  366. Walrus permalink
    December 19, 2013 9:12 am

    “I wonder if the mining magnates are getting nervous about their diesel fuel rebate, after all, isn’t that just another form of “industry assistance”?”

    Not really,

    It just recognises the fact that they are using their OWN diesel powered vehicles on their OWN roads constructed using their OWN money which after they are gone will revert to public ownership.

    Try another ?

  367. Walrus permalink
    December 19, 2013 9:14 am

    The “Arts” is an industry. Lets starve them of funding.

  368. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 19, 2013 9:16 am

    It just recognises the fact that they are using their OWN diesel powered vehicles

    Holden were using their OWN Factories testing their OWN cars on their OWN roads

    Try again

  369. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 19, 2013 9:17 am

    Private Health Insurance is an industry. Lets starve them of funding.

  370. Walrus permalink
    December 19, 2013 9:37 am

    “Holden were using their OWN Factories testing their OWN cars on their OWN roads”

    Yeah………………directly funded by the taxpayer over many generations and now of little intrinsic value unlike a road tarmac

    Try again

  371. Walrus permalink
    December 19, 2013 9:39 am

    “Private Health Insurance is an industry. Lets starve them of funding.”

    Are you referring to Insurance or Private Hospitals ?

  372. Walrus permalink
    December 19, 2013 9:40 am

    I suppose you are OK to get rid of the Right Wing Think Tank State Media………………………..the ABC and SBS

    I am

  373. December 19, 2013 9:43 am

    “I am”

    Gee. Who would’ve thought.

  374. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 19, 2013 11:04 am

    little intrinsic value unlike a road tarmac

    Yea, cos they leave their roads pristine when they are done.

    directly funded by the taxpayer over many generations

    over many generations? And so unlike the roads the mining companies build to nowhere but their mines, with money from Government subsidies (oops, didn’t mean to swear)

    and now of little intrinsic value

    Tell that to the real estate agents.

  375. Walrus permalink
    December 19, 2013 11:24 am

    “Tell that to the real estate agents.”

    I didn’t realise it was the “in thing” for the latte set to set themselves up in crash dummie labs.

    I wish a few of them would strap themselves in after a few cones

  376. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 19, 2013 11:27 am

    I didn’t realise it was the “in thing” for the latte set to set themselves up in crash dummie labs.

    Perhaps they do it just before taking advantage of that Road to Nowhere the mining company built

  377. Jherek Jagged permalink
    December 19, 2013 11:33 am

    But back to my original point Walrus, which wasn’t would they/should they close, but rather that the Liberals are the ones who caused them to close. Do you agree with this. Particularly in the light of Tony Abbott now claiming that those whose jobs are soon to be lost are somehow “liberated”

    It looks like he almost wants to take the credit for it (which I would not disagree with)

  378. Neil of Sydney permalink
    December 19, 2013 11:48 am

    Looks like Toyota is going also due to human greed and Union stupidity and of course ALP supporters

    http://www.smh.com.au/comment/the-labor-lawyer-and-the-death-seal-20131218-2zlca.html

    “On Thursday, Toyota workers begin their three-week Christmas holiday, the longest shutdown in Toyota’s global manufacturing operation. Plus there’s their 17.5 per cent holiday pay loading, plus double time-and-a-half when they work on Sundays, plus shift premiums, plus generous long-service leave, plus no medical certificates for sick days, plus time off to give blood (usually on Fridays) – all of which the chief executive of Toyota Australia, Max Yasuda, has warned is unsustainable.”

    Toyota wanted to shut down for 10 days only but Unions want 3 weeks. The countries they export cars to do not shut down because they do not celebrate Christmas.

    And it looks like Toyota workers do not give a stuff about the component suppliers who will also lose their jobs if Toyota goes. These workers are on “normal wages” unlike the bludgers at Toyota.

  379. TB Queensland permalink
    December 19, 2013 12:45 pm

    WALLY!

    I need some advice.

    You know I have some fun re CA and CPA … my understanding is that CA require post graduate quals and CPA is graduate + prac. … is that close?

    I know someone (really well!) who is using the title on his business cards CA … and he does not have any tertiary quals at all* … I’m concerned that he may be hit with fraud charge (would you believ he claims to be a forensic acc for the cops?) 🙄

    Any info gratefully recieved …

    *Having said that they should have retired 20 years ago … but this sort of thing irks me …

  380. Walrus permalink
    December 19, 2013 1:41 pm

    TB

    A Chartered Accountant or ACA as we are known must first have a university degree or equivalent. I know of no exceptions to that. I did an initial 3years at University of Sydney during Abbott and Latham’s time there (and then my Masters at UNSW but the Masters is not relevant to being a CA).

    After completion of your degree you need to become a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Australia (now including NZ). In order to get associate membership (you can get a “fellowship” later on) you MUST do what is known as the Professional Year (PY). No exceptions unless you are a member of an equivalent overseas body like the Institute of Chatered Accountants in England, Scotland and Wales.

    The PY as its generally known is VERY rigorous as you are doing part time night school plus full time work at a CA firm. These days you can work anywhere in any accounting field but you must be mentored by a CA . When I did it you had to do a 5,000 word assignment every 3 weeks for 10 months plus 2 x 4 hour exams at the end of 10 months. It had a very high (25%) failure rate. Now it’s done in a modular/semester format over as long as you like.

    You must pass the PY to become a CA and you must maintain your membership by paying the $850 pa fee plus completing 28 hours of continual professional training each year (read attending seminars).

    On the other hand CPAs can work anywhere and do their own course to become CPAs.
    As the course was traditiuonally a lot easier than the CA PY they are far more numerous in numbers.

    The quick way to test your mate is to ask him when he did his PY. If you get a blank stare he’s a fake

    Eyes struggling to stay open……………falls off chair………………….. wakes up on floor

  381. December 19, 2013 7:06 pm

    #diesel fuel rebate,
    #another form of “industry assistance”?”

    ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘It just recognises the fact that they are using their OWN diesel powered vehicles on their OWN roads constructed using their OWN money which after they are gone will revert to public ownership.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘

    #whatAbout-LinFox
    the trucking/logistics industry get the nipple too,
    their rego also doesn`t reflect the damage they do chewing-up the `public` roads either, by the way.

    +++++++
    TB, l think a `forensic-accountant` is actually an investigator, despite the title.

  382. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 19, 2013 7:07 pm

    I’ve used forensic accountants to assist to recover fraud in companies

  383. TB Queensland permalink
    December 19, 2013 9:40 pm

    Eyes struggling to stay open……………falls off chair………………….. wakes up on floor

    Many thanks, Sunshine … and I now know my “fears” are well founded …

    Thanks, too, TH … his title not mine but I too (obviously) was sus …

    Ta, ToM … the poor old bugger is over 80 (I’ve known him for 25 years) but I don’t know how to broach the subject (again!) … and its probably not worth it!

  384. Walrus permalink
    December 19, 2013 10:38 pm

    His business card should read ACA to designate Associate Chatered Accountant or FCA being Fellowship ditto ditto.

    He’s a fraud and The Australian Companies and Investment Commission ASIC
    would be very keen to meet him.

  385. TB Queensland permalink
    December 20, 2013 8:00 pm

    Wally, I get pissed off with Honorary Degrees (took a lot of hard yakka to gain mine!) … so I think we are on the same wavelength …

    … when the National Training System kicked off in 1992 there were a lot of charlatans about in training (as there always had been – and still are!) …

    … when I turned up a government seminars you could almost hear the groans from the government folk …

    … I’d been involved in CBL for about five years by then and they were just learning the ropes …

    … still, after a couple of years lobbying, Queensland (other states followed) introduced $3000 fines for every false Statement of Attainment, Certificate and Diploma issued by anyone purporting to be a Recognised Training Organisation or, not registered to deliver that particular award …

    They still didn’t do anything about the three day Certificate IV in Workplace Training & Assessments though! FFS! A trade Cert is at level IV and takes three to four years!

    BTW, I don’t have the heart to dob the poor old bugger in, either … he’s gotta pull the pin soon … he comes here for lunch and falls asleep straight after …

  386. TB Queensland permalink
    December 20, 2013 8:00 pm

    … he comes here for lunch and falls asleep straight after …

    … don’t you fkn dare! 😉

  387. egg permalink
    December 21, 2013 7:16 am

    ‘THE nation’s carmaking industry is too small and too expensive to compete on the world stage, with rigid industrial relations laws that limit workplace flexibility constraining the ability of the remaining manufacturers to adapt and survive.

    ‘In a preliminary report released yesterday, the Productivity Commission found that taxpayer assistance of $30 billion to the car industry between 1997 and last year had failed to secure future motor vehicle production in Australia “on the basis that it was unable to identify a profitable and sustainable business model”.

    Sid Maher / Oz

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