It’s Over – Holden Quits Australia!

Who or what are “the blubbers”?

Holden had already made its decision, as today’s events show. The pissing contest was whether Holden could hold off making the announcement long enough that it could blame the government. Hockey and Co knew this, and forced Holden’s hand.

(Who honestly believes Holden were undecided yesterday and made their decision today because the government “goad(ed)” them to leave?)

Dan’s spot on.

Roger Smith sent the GM auto-plants to Mexico for `cheap`labor. Mexico will be coming to a close in the not too distant future, the greedy Mexican auto-workers now demand the excessive pay-rate of 2.50-us$/hour, this will never do, China 10cents/hour.

#Yay for Teabag exploitation

‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Removing the technical option from the Australian workforce isn’t good policy.’ ‘ ‘ ‘
Too Late. lt`s been going for decades too.

>>> 2900 <<<<
Holden workers 2900, sbs-news TV.

It seems that the government was aware that the decision had been made, and didn’t want to have the announcement delayed and then blamed on the Productivity Commission report.

Hi Dianne, you should comment more often!

Hi Tom. Everyone else in real life wishes I would shut up. But thanks. Very busy.

‘bet it won’t drop if its removed … ‘

I disagree.

Hi Di

Found this on Bolt. Julia Gillard as PM made this statement just last year.

” And the good news is that the future of General Motors is now secure in this country for the next decade.

Holden will be here in Australia producing cars for at least the next 10 years. That’s great news. And it’s as a result of a more than $1 billion co-investment between the Federal Government, the South Australian Government, the Victorian Government and of course Holden, which is investing strongly in the future of manufacturing Holden cars here in Australia”

So what has changed to stop Holden making cars since our previous PM (Gillard) said they would be making cars for the next 10 years??

‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Found this on Bolt. Julia Gillard as PM made this statement just last year.’ ‘ ‘ ‘
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘And the good news is that the future of General Motors is now secure in this country for the next decade.’ ‘ ‘ ‘

And only an ignorant imbecile would believe it kneel. That`s why bolt fed it to his trolls.

“And only an ignorant imbecile would believe it kneel”

Bolt gave a link to a PM Gillard press release that said Holden would be making cars for the next 10 years. What has changed??

General Motors and the other `auto`s went groveling to China for sweatshop/slave labor over a decade ago. Only bolts trolls are not bright enough to know this.

“Only bolts trolls are not bright enough to know this.”

Bolt gave this link from 22/3/2012

http://pmtranscripts.dpmc.gov.au/browse.php?did=18458

So, I’m pleased to be here today with the Premier, with Minister Combet, with Holden and Mike, to announce some good news. And the good news is that the future of General Motors is now secure in this country for the next decade.

Holden will be here in Australia producing cars for at least the next 10 years. That’s great news. And it’s as a result of a more than $1 billion co-investment between the Federal Government, the South Australian Government, the Victorian Government and of course Holden, which is investing strongly in the future of manufacturing Holden cars here in Australia.

So what has changed???? Did Holden take the money and run or has the Coalition not fronted up with some money??

Jericho illustrates that manufacturing has been declining for 40 years and Holden’s demise was inevitable.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/grogonomics/2013/dec/09/car-industry-is-not-the-productivity-knuckle-dragger-it-is-made-out-to-be

‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Bolt gave this link from 22/3/2012’ ‘ ‘ ‘ Yes kneel. To feed his imbecile trolls their daily fodder. Those with a brain in their head know the `auto`industry goes a little further back than ‘ ‘ ‘ ’22/3/2012’ ‘ ‘ ‘

Learn something, stop guzzling bolts crap.
https://theguttertrash.com/2013/12/11/its-over-holden-quits-australia/#comment-39440

“Yes kneel. To feed his imbecile trolls their daily fodder”

Well i just don’t get what you are trying to say. PM Gillard gave a speech on 22/3/2012 saying Holden would be making cars for the next 10 years. So what changed?? Did PM Gillard lie on 22/3/2012?? Did Holden lie to Gillard?? What changed??

Gillard always erred on the side of making big politically expedient announcements. She was a born bullshit artist, too much of it. Even for a politician.

She did provide a 10 year assurance, some would have been stupid enough to believe her. Hope they didn’t increase their mortgages on the back of her promise.

I must admit you leftoids are hard to understand.

I posted a link i found on Bolt where Gillard as PM said on 22/3/2012 that Holden would be manufacturing cars for the next 10 years. It was just announced they are closing in 4 years not 10.

Did Gillard, Holden, The Coalition lie??

Instead of an answer i get a personal attack on myself, Bolt and John Howard.

“Which pretty much guarantees the info is bad. Stupidity-1.”

No, the information was correct. here is the statement by PM Gillard again

http://pmtranscripts.dpmc.gov.au/browse.php?did=18458

“Stupidity-2. Company reps speak for company`s. Not any politician.”

I think a company representative was present

“So, I’m pleased to be here today with the Premier, with Minister Combet, with Holden and Mike, to announce some good news. And the good news is that the future of General Motors is now secure in this country for the next decade.”

It said “with Holden and Mike”. I guess Mike= Holden Managing Director Mike Devereux

Well i think i found the answer to the question i asked. PM Gillard said Holden would be making cars for the next 10 years. However they are now going to make them for the next 4 years only. I found this link.

http://www.carsguide.com.au/news-and-reviews/car-news/holden_decision_could_come_by_christmas_80738_20131210

“In March 2012 Holden agreed to invest $1 billion in two new cars to be built from 2016 to 2022, in return for $275 million in taxpayer assistance — $215 million from the Federal Government, $50 million from the SA Government and an estimated $10 from the Victorian Government.

However after Ford announced in May this year that it was closing its factories in 2016, Holden has asked for an increase in taxpayer support because, it says, market conditions have “changed significantly” since the original deal was signed”

Looks like Holden misspoke on 22/3/2012

I would like to hear those answers too TB.

I suspect now that the govt will give Toyota lots of money and help it drive down wages and conditions.

Gina Rinehart was vilified for pointing out the bleeding obvious; that some workers in Australia are competing for the same jobs against Africans earning $2 a day.

This no-shock govt seems very keen on driving down wages. But how on earth are we ever going to match countries where companies pay in coins to jingle in a pocket?

Our workers must survive in a high cost country.

I suppose more people will have to juggle three or so low-paying jobs and/or exist on tips and live in their cars as they do in the Home of the Free, the US.

I think this govt is hell-bent on dismantling old Australia.

Even Neil might come to realize that he is one of the turkeys longing for Christmas.

A free market means capital chases profits, as opposed to state run enterprises which can be propped up for awhile but will eventually collapse.

In regards to free trade, nations negotiate to achieve a semblance of balance, there will always be winners and losers.

————-

Di the government has no intention of driving down wages.

Egg – What about the child care workers?

Industry heads are already calling for cuts to Toyota workers pay.

I am afraid I think otherwise.

$15! I am sure you bought a dozen Tom.

Industry heads can call for cuts in wages, but it might be easier simply to reduce their hours of work.

Child care workers are underpaid, they should go on strike.

———–

‘As opposed to the Chinese model you mean?’

State run industries in Russia and China eventually failed because they were making stuff nobody wanted.

Free Trade Agreements are not a free for all.

What gets up my nose is the way we treated Timor, it has been a disgrace, considering its one of the poorest nations on earth.

Vielen dank T.

Too stupid to convey text to google machine. Looks very John Le Carre.

I can use the translator if I type in text directly but I can’t cut and paste and convey foreign tongues to it on this veteran I pad. I may be looosid but I am quite inept technically.

Teabag you should read more widely.

The Limited-News Fox machinery guarantee we have a steady supply of teabags to mock. Distorted democracy is a small price to pay.

Di said ….’This no-shock govt seems very keen on driving down wages. But how on earth are we ever going to match countries where companies pay in coins to jingle in a pocket?’

Wages are not under threat, even as unemployment increases. Out my way Newcrest mine is sacking people and replacing them with new technology.

“Newcrest reconfirms its focus going forward will be on maximising free cashflow by reducing operating costs, corporate costs and capital expenditure,” the group said six months ago.

The Cadia Valley operations are replacing humans with robots and this is having a negative impact on the town of Orange because robots don’t eat or sleep.

My heart goes out to the wage slaves, there but for the grace of dog.

Manufacturing is beset by overlapping union coverage, in many plants there will be one union covering production, another covering mechanical maintenance, another covering electrical maintenance, in the distribution centre or warehouse there will be yet another, and possibly if it’s really old fashioned, there will be another in the office.

The problem (in many marginal sites) is that they all want a say, they all want to retain their coverage, they all resist the type of modern flexibility that might safe the activity.

Eg – try getting an AWU machine operator doing basic maintenance when the AMWU covers mechanical maintenance.

I think TB’s right.

Robotics usually do the mundane, repetitive or heavy tasks.

There are many where I work. They still need operations support & certainly can’t definitively troubleshoot themselves or think their way out of unprogrammed upset conditions. At least, not like a well trained human operator.

Self guided vehicles (we have those already) don’t perform the same function as a person overseeing the efficient operation of complex production machinery.

How unusual and very surprising! 730 provides a reworded piece of unoriginality!

What 730 never realises is that it has been this pattern of avaricious union behaviour and turf wars that has soured the willingness of businesses of invest. Managers come and go, with varying degrees of competence, the one constant in many manufacturers is being dragged into turf wars and being locked into archaic work practices driven by the hunger for coverage.

730 doesn’t really get this.

(now I can expect a lame rewording of this comment)

‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Self guided vehicles don’t perform the same function as a person overseeing the efficient operation of complex production machinery.’ ‘ ‘ ‘

You`re backed-up Dunny, you need a flush.
Nobody here is claiming a dozen robotic/self-drive trucks will `replace` their human/tech overseeing them. Clearly, the dozen self-drives will replace a dozen truck-drivers.

.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘certainly can’t definitively troubleshoot themselves or think their way out of unprogrammed upset conditions’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘

You`re under-estimating here Dunny.
Diagnostics, Logs, Recording are already in play today.
Aircraft has `black-box`s, (actually hi-viz yellow/orange)
Auto`s are now loaded with circuits/chips a mechanic often can`t do much without the `diagnostic`computer that `talks` to the cars chips/circuits. Aircraft flight computers, auto-pilots and all the electronics stuffed into commercial aircraft are in the same boat.
Logs and diagnostics are loaded into most computer systems, also some self-fixes.

Actually yomm, l understand you Love to cling to your `unions-boo` theme, but l was just showing that `management-boo` has it`s place to.

Now l don`t want you to go and get all unhinged, but here is a little fact for ya,

Unions are a by-product of shit employers.

.

And another little fact for ya,

Management and Boardrooms have driven more businesses into extinction than any union/action ever has, or ever will.
.
Oh, another inconvenient little fact for ya,
Crime, Fraud, and getting people killed, yep, you guessed it, Management has most of the runs on the board here too. Can you say Enron.?

Unions are a by-product of shit employers.

…and TB regularly makes that comment, and I always agree with him. but when changes need to be made by a new, competent management, unions represent the huge obstacle.

Once chain dragging unions take hold, they never release it, regardless of the decent efforts of a company.

The Carpenter’s Union had coverage in Qantas, because some of the cabin interior was made from wood. Imagine the difficulties of getting the wood framing union to co-operate with the union that covered the people who put the vinyl over it. That’s just a microcosm of the turf wars that many managers have to put up with, that add nothing to wages, conditions, job security.

Qantas (for example) is completely buried by the difficulties in getting past those types of archaic work practices.

They beset Holden and many other manufacturers too.

Management represent the huge obstacle.

Once chain dragging management take hold, they never release it, regardless of the decent efforts of a government.

Annually Extorting government for welfare and threatening to close, sack the workforce and show to the public there may not be parts for their product available in the future, negated the millions of dollars spent on marketing and advertising the Holden product, at home or off-shore.

Ignoring the employment environment and market tastes at home, and economy generally, including currency exchange rates and ability to export and to where. Not paying attention to what was imported, and the pricing point.

All Holden Management Failure, not union.

Where is our teabag bleeding hearts for holden share-holders, and their condemnation for the management that ran it into the ground. Our teabag apologists for all things corporate don`t seem to be squealing for boardroom salary and bonus recovery for share-holders who clearly have not received the performance they have paid for.

TB – “… in your ideal world a Cairns bus driver should be able jump into the cockpit of a 777 and happily fly a load of passengers down to Launceston … easy …

Not at all, I’ve never made any suggestion like this. Ridiculous TB.

But perhaps you would explain how employees actually benefit from the multitude of unions that cover a traditional manufacturing operation. Who do plant operators develop higher level skills if the higher level is covered by a self interested (other) union?

How do employees benefit by skill acquisition if unions bottle up their skill and area of coverage?

Does this create an environment that is conducive to investment and expansion?

#drones
on what l`ve seen on the drones, they can take-off, land, and fly on auto-pilot to gps locations and remain in a holding pattern, no human required,

the human `drone-drivers` are in Colorado usa, they only `drive` when they bomb, or more often do observation, from memory there was 8 `drone-drivers` in the room, that had a couple of dozen drones to control, obviously some on ground refueling, some on-mission, others flying to and from mission, the point being 8 `drone-drivers` were in charge/control of many more than 8 drones

*yes the `repairman` will be human

“BTW … the Luddites were wrong”

Yes. Yes they were.

Why is it that Holden workers get sooo much help??

They have been told they will be retrenched in four years. Furthermore they will get 12 months severance pay. So they have a salary for the next 5 years.

Is there any other profession which gives such certainty??

I mean most of us do not like politicians but they have certainty for 3 years and then they have to stand for their jobs again.

‘ ‘ ‘ ‘USAF has a pilot for every plane?’ ‘ ‘ ‘
No idea. l think the `drone` doco l saw was part of one of teh-usa spook-orgs contractors.
.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Tea, they are referred to as “operators”’ ‘ ‘ ‘
Yes, they all are, `drivers`, `repairmen` and `drone-drivers`, it is a very generic/non-specific term, just as `manager` and `technician` can be which tells little about the `specific` job/task. Which was what l was referring to.

To an `out-side-industry` reader, the term `mine-truck-driver` leaves absolutely no-doubt in the job/task l am referring to, tho not `technically` correct, l am allowing the uninformed to join the thread, not locking-out with `tech-jargon`.

Nice to see Dianne reporting from under the Queen-Size. 🙂
We really need the chicks to turn up more often,
(where the hell is armchair)
to add some `two-eyed` opinion to this joint, the over-blown testosterone filled `one-eyed` screeching from the `usual`suspects needs some diversity. l too am sick of the extorter`s hiding the truth in corporate-speak gobble-d-gook.

Neil – you might like to illuminate.

I have just heard a fellow from the Grattan Institute talking on the ABC about the need for tough measures in the forthcoming budget.

Pray tell?

Raising the old age pension age for one.

Sounds feasible I suppose when it is written down in a discussion paper. But what would it mean?

It would require a major change in attitudes to employing people.

Forklift drivers in their late sixties?

My common sense tells me that older people will find it hard to gain/keep jobs. What will they live on?

So true TB. And supported very nicely too. Top shelf all the way.

Egg – they may be fit to work but weary and and creaky. Heave yourself up on the forklift Stanley. Only two years to go old boy.

Are we living in a time which will have the chapter heading: The Age of Fundamentalism?

I believe we are. Boring old men everywhere, even the young ones. Dismantlers not builders. Punishers. The Market is God and so is Greed.

I can hardly bear the thought of 2014. Union bashing everywhere I suspect. Productivity. Productivity. Blah blah. Toyota? Mmmmm. MUA?

You talk about there being no govt assault on salaries Egg. Well that remains to be seen. I think child are workers would not agree.

Members of my family are already providing their some of their labor freely to big companies. This is not be uncommon in an age where one can be contacted around the clock.

People are working for tips. I wonder how far off it will be before people start bidding for jobs just for access to tips. It happens in the US.

People are also working for some Internet sites for no pay, just the exposure.

Someone wrote recently that many workers are now galley slaves rowing pirate ships.

‘ ‘ ‘ ‘The Age of Fundamentalism?’ ‘ ‘ ‘
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Dismantlers not builders. Punishers.’ ‘ ‘ ‘
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘The Market is God and so is Greed.’ ‘ ‘ ‘
.
Actually Dianne, it`s funny you say that. Around here (home) l have often said the Teabags are economic terrorists practicing a fundamental religion. *ironic*

‘….they may be fit to work but weary and creaky.’

Then they can quit work and get unemployment benefits, its the same as the pension except that they require forms to be filled out on a regular basis.

Having lived on the margins most of my life, you become street wise. If an old bloke says I’m not goin’ on the dole, then he can do a TAFE course, its the same as the pension.

‘ ‘ ‘ ‘they can quit work and get unemployment benefits’ ‘ ‘ ‘
According to one of my `dole` knowledgable neighbors, no they can`t, you need to have some form/paperwork from your employer you have been sacked/etc, else you`re not elegible for said `dole`, he keeps advising me to make sure l start getting them when jobs end. l usually don`t.
.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘do a TAFE course, its the same as the pension.’ ‘ ‘ ‘
Yep. He has told me that too. Problem is it`s another exercise in throwing ca$h on the bonfire for most, as they are too old to realistically be hire, over 45-years old, it starts getting harder, 55+, forget it. Bit of a ponzi scheme. Training, but no job anyway.

‘TAFE ain’t what it used to be.’

That’s true, but for the mental misfits, creatives of one sort or another, the arts are still relatively free.

People are worried about people who work for the components manufacturers who supply parts for Holden cars. What will they do when Holden stops manufacturing??

Well i saw a blog comment which said Holden would make a profit and survive if they paid their workers the same wages as the manufacturers who supply parts for Holden. Apparently Holden workers are in the top tier of salaries. Way above workers doing a similar job working for other companies.

‘ ‘ ‘ ‘if they paid their workers the same wages as the manufacturers who supply parts for Holden.’ ‘ ‘ ‘

They should all get 1-cent per-day, and be grateful for it.
That will guarantee the `boost` the retailers are screeching for.

#TeabagStupidityIsArareCommodity

The Ugly Face of Kapitalism

Well how about Toyota?? They want to only shut down for 10 days to meet customer demand over Christmas and the Unions want 3 weeks. The countries they export to don’t celebrate Christmas.

How many companies in Australia shut down for 3 weeks over Christmas??

‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Two terms (six) years and pollies are supported for life’ ‘ ‘ ‘
l suppose that`s Canberra TB. l bet the States are trough-snouting just as bad. Another fine example of our So-called equality, in our so-called class-less, so-called fair, so-called society.

Those people claiming that Holden were gone no matter what are kidding themselves, and us. With Government assistance, they would have stayed. What they needed was certainty in order to keep them operating whilst the dollar was so high. That, and that almost alone, is what was making them unaffordable. The Liberals forced their hand, which means, they are responsible for losing Holden, no one else. If they had been prepared to work with them, and give them a fraction the amount the give the mining magnates, there would still be hope for those workers at Holden and it’s subsidiaries. Tony Abbott and his Government willingly threw those people and their jobs on the scrap heap. And they should be held to account for their betrayal.

Without government assistance, head office in Detroit had decided that making cars in Australia no longer added up – to the tune of $3750 a car per year.
………………………..
What Holden needed was a further commitment of $150 million a year from the government through to 2020 – roughly $2000 a car built. With that, Mr Devereux could get the numbers to work. In return, Holden would continue making the VF Commodore and Cruze in Australia until 2017, and then commit to build GM’s next generation global car in Adelaide until 2020.

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/taunts-in-parliament-and-text-brought-about-general-motors-holdens-exit-from-australia-20131211-2z6i6.html

The Government went to war with GM, and then tried to claim that it was ‘inevitable’. What a crock.

And is Ford up and leaving Abbotts fault also?? Nisan and Mitsubishi also left. Abbotts fault as well??

None of those are anyone’s fault but a car market too large for our country and whose priorities lie elsewhere Neil of Sydney. But, as shown, Holden was sustainable. All it took was incentive. With that incentive, GM management would have kept the Holden business here, as they stated. That incentive was removed, so the company was removed. Directly because of a decision from the Government, unlike all of the others, who left despite positive actions from the Government. This was the direct result of positive actions from the Government. Hence, it is directly their fault.

What does it have to do with me running a business TB?

I am only going on what Holden said

With that, Mr Devereux could get the numbers to work.

So, with the assistance, they had a viable company. Without, it is now gone.

Neil of Sydney

The Abbott government’s refusal to countenance further industry assistance should come as no surprise: in opposition, the Coalition’s firm policy was to cut A$500 million from the ALP government’s support package.

https://theconversation.com/walking-away-from-holden-abbott-finishes-what-hewson-started-21376

Did they lie about that?

With Government assistance, they would have stayed.

I’d have preferred some assistance, but our reputation for stable manufacturing and IR isn’t conducive to long term viability.

Really? Can you name a time when a business has publicity blamed the government? Or unions?

People in business know they are the two critical factors, but prefer not to engage in the highly charged public debate that follows.

Do you only believe stuff if it’s in a press release?

Holden is just following television manufacture, fridges, washing machines, dryers, clothing etc.

But i do believe the comment i read where if Holden workers were paid the same salaries as the component manufacturers in Victoria and SA they could make a profit.

Holden workers are in the top tier of salaries and with overtime earn way more than people in comparative industries.

“The Abbott government’s refusal to countenance further industry assistance should come as no surprise”

Yep they refused to give any more to the bottomless pit. Holden asked for more over what was promised because Ford up and left.

‘ ‘ ‘ ‘I’d have preferred some assistance, but our reputation for stable manufacturing and IR isn’t conducive to long term viability.’ ‘ ‘ ‘
Yes-sir-eee. Always infer that unions and workers `create` unstable industrial relations, even if the company says otherwise. Yes-sir-eee, with my fancy book learnin` l can afford to ignore reality, uh-huh.

And when difficult truths and fact knock at my door,
https://theguttertrash.com/2013/12/11/its-over-holden-quits-australia/#comment-39684
my fancy book learnin` taught me to not answer the door. Yess-siirrr-eee.

#ignoringReality
#FancyBookLearnin`
#IworkForMyDaddy
#SurfboardHitMyHead

‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘You have no idea what my role is.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘

Don`t need to. Check your own words. The `only` way it could be true is , you have only ever had one job, and it is in your family/fathers business.

(That would also make many `other` of your comment bullshit tho)

Oh look, uncle TB is havin a crack, too bad the throw-away line in brackets is used, not any of the meat-and-potato.

“I also noted that I do recognise that there is plenty in Holden’s (it may have even been Toyota’s I read, last week) EBA that is counterproductive to efficiency & longevity of employment.”

I have seen it stated several times all they have to do is pay Holden workers the same as the component suppliers who will also lose their jobs if Holden folds.

Toyota workers also want to shut down for 3 weeks at Christmas whereas the company only wants to shut down for 10 days. Do these guys want to keep their jobs??

‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Toyota workers also want to shut down for 3 weeks at Christmas whereas the company only wants to shut down for 10 days. Do these guys want to keep their jobs??’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘

lt won`t matter how much spouting TB + Dunny do,
nor how much corporate bleating our teabags do,

Toyota will go by 2017 too, if not earlier.

“I just luuuurve how people who don’t, and likely never will, do such jobs decide that the award rate must be ‘fair’ & reasonable. In truth, I’d say 90% of people on this thread have no fucking idea what being a production employee is like.”

That’s as good as “you have never worn the uniform” therefore you can’t comment.

If any company receives direct taxpayer funding they should have all their EBAs tossed out the window and all covered by that go onto Award.

Why should any taxpayer fund these parasites?

If not for the subsidies GM would have left Australia years ago, so its not the board’s fault, bipartisan folly on the part of successive Australian governments has created this problem.

If not for the subsidies GM would have left Australia years ago

True. And, it is under this Government that subsidies were cut. Therefore, it is the Governments fault.

They keep banging on about a ‘level playing field’, yet this Government pulled out exactly what other car manufacturing countries do for their companies, subsidies them. That meant Holden were no longer operating under a “level playing field”, which is why they pulled the plug.

I guess that means if we stop subsidising mining magnates billions more than the car industry ever got they will go elsewhere? And why did Cadbury in Tasmania deserve that Government “handout”, yet Holden is not worthy of it, even though, as the numbers show, the roll on effect of employment from them runs into the many tens of thousands.

Egg – I am coming after you with a whisk.

Government shouldn’t subsidise manufacturing at all

If only the other car manufacturing countries felt the same way. Should we subisidise mining?

the destroyers would have been cheaper to purchase from China.

Yea, like companies in a communist country aren’t “subsidised”

“What about the boardroom and management that has run said company into extinction Walrus.?”

They would be on individual contracts based upon their performance.

Now that’s an idea……………………..let’s put the entire Workforce on individual agreements………………………I seem to vaguely recall someone trying to do that sort of thing Australia wide around 2006 ……………LOL

The dinosaur that ate Holden

Nice one IPA, Peter Costello blaming everything except what Holden management blamed, the removal of subsidies.

Guess he wants Oz to become a closed state again? Fact is, it had survived for years with tariffs removed. That was nothing new. It had survived for years with Unions, again, nothing new. Let’s try and work out just what had changed? We know the dollar had been high for a few years, even back when Holden committed to beyond 2020, and it had every indication of that easing, so really, what had changed?

Big difference between a subsidy or concession and a cash handout.

Mining companies spend billions each year exploring for minerals a lot of which is futile exploration.

Unless you want to deny them a tax deduction on exploration when they are successful ?

At least they’ll pay it back in tax. What do we get from Holden ?

Diddly Squat that’s our return

No surer way to guarantee a drop off in exploration under your policy.

“what Holden management blamed, the removal of subsidies.”

No. They did not.

“Let’s try and work out just what had changed?”

Steeply declining sales, for one thing.

Like most News Ltd articles, it is what is left out that is often the most revealing. From your link IPA

The bottom line is we are losing money building cars in this country and there is no viable way to bridge that gap in the future.

As I posted earlier on in this thread, while tariffs and the dollar were certainly an impact, they were not the final straw. This was

What Holden needed was a further commitment of $150 million a year from the government through to 2020 – roughly $2000 a car built. With that, Mr Devereux could get the numbers to work. In return, Holden would continue making the VF Commodore and Cruze in Australia until 2017, and then commit to build GM’s next generation global car in Adelaide until 2020.

https://theguttertrash.com/2013/12/11/its-over-holden-quits-australia/#comment-39834

Then, back to your article

The unfortunate fact is that as I stand here today, GM already has all the information it needs to know that our Next Gen business case is not viable.

Yes, and the fact that had changed, was the Government had made it clear that those subsidies were not forthcoming. That was the information it needed. And the Government had become very clear with their messages. Blatantly so.

From what i have read it is Ford quitting which made Holden break its promise

That is obviously because you refuse to read any links I put up.

And Abbott did not take money away he was just unwilling to give any more.

Case in point

in opposition, the Coalition’s firm policy was to cut A$500 million from the ALP government’s support package.

https://theguttertrash.com/2013/12/11/its-over-holden-quits-australia/#comment-39863

And here you can catch a “no government handout” bus

http://www.busaustralia.com/body.html

It said in Opposition however they are now in govt.

So, we shouldn’t believe what they said in opposition?

The Button Plan: “The overarching aim of the scheme was to make the motor vehicle industry in Australia more efficient by consolidation of resources, allowing the import tariffs to be gradually reduced. This in turn would theoretically expose the local industry to increased competition from imported products, fostering improvement in local vehicles and creating the basis for a competitive export industry.”

How’d that work out, do you reckon?

The theory of the Button Plan was correct: it would make the local industry lean and mean, ensuring its future. Only, instead of having to survive or fail on their own results, the car companies received corporate welfare from nervous successive governments who weren’t brave enough to allow the experiment run its course. Instead of making them lean and mean, this made the local car companies comfortable, fat, and lazy. We’ve just seen the inevitable consequences.

How’d that work out, do you reckon?

Well, until the current Government forced Holden out. Holden had a strong export industry until the dollar rose, and, there was no reason it wouldn’t have expanded again once the dollar settled. Their large cars were well known for their reliability and construction, particularly in law enforcement circles. All they need was certainty. Something this Government promised, but wouldn’t deliver.

“Their large cars were well known for their reliability and construction, particularly in law enforcement circles”

A few thousand exported Muscle Cars is not going to keep them open

‘Do you mean one that the Australian Government wouldn’t uphold? Or are you just postulating like you normally do?’

China has a huge demand for cars, GM reckons its more lucrative for them to build them there.

GM reckons its more lucrative for them to build them there.

That may well be the case, but it was also viable for them to produce from here, as the numbers showed. Well, before the Liberal Government cut them loose anyway.

‘it was also viable for them to produce from here’

As my colleagues have pointed out, that is not true.

Are you a successful business if you can’t keep the doors open without huge cash injections from taxpayers? I don’t think so.

“From my links, it was clear that GM had a plan to keep Holden going,”

From my links, it was clear that the taxpayer didn’t like the GM plan to keep Holden going,

From my links, it was clear that the taxpayer didn’t like the GM plan to keep Holden going,

From my links, it was clear that the Government didn’t like the GM plan to keep Holden going,

Fixed

Really egg, that doesn’t prove anything about Holdens local viability. Don’t play poker with Old Maid cards. Just a hint

” … bloody hell, they were/are failing in the USA …”

Really…………………..?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23451243

“The workers probably want Holden to go”

That crossed my mind too SB

The ones that will suffer are those in the smaller engineeering workshops etc not employed by Holden on Award wages.

In the end there was a major incentive for long term Holden workers to see the joint fail because of the obscene size of their payouts

In the end there was a major incentive for long term Holden workers to see the joint fail because of the obscene size of their payouts

The company has been downsizing since the GFC. Any who had wanted it would have taken it by now.

And where is that, exactly?

How long is a piece of string, exactly?

But, this is perhaps a good indication. Obviously, quite a bit lower than it currently is.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/glenn-stevens-says-aussie-dollar-needs-to-fall-further-20131213-2zapf.html

Wow Neal, you should be on the national archery team with a bow pull like that 😉

I agrre with Neil, its all Gillard’s fault.

Shorter term Holden employees. Those likely to have bigger mortgages & younger families. They don’t have much to gain from a redundancy payment…& presumably still have many years of work ahead of them.

A permanent job is far more valuable than a redundancy payout, unless retirement was approaching soon anyway.

There are plenty of boardrooms who become quite ambivalent about whether a company fails or succeeds, they look at lightly taxed back-dated options that add up to several years pay, and decide that this represents part of their retirement nest egg. Motivation for business success disappears, replaced by a desire to manipulate the stock-price.
#DanglingInHotWaterAsUsual

That`s really funny lpad`osy.
The Costello dinosaur is spanking the Keating dinosaur for being a better teabag and applying his agenda. 😆 Nice find.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/the-dinosaur-that-ate-holden/story-fni0cwl5-1226784404512

The free marketeers have won this debate.

‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Hawke, HOWARD +premiers, Gillard and Rudd for letting Nissan (1992),Ford (2013) and Mitsubishi (2008)’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘

can be blamed for allowing them too much access to taxpayer-nipple,

NOT,
holden still wouldn`t have been saved from it`s own crap boardrooms and managements that decided to build crap/wrong product.

Rumor, General Motors is going to open 5-plants in teh-usa. Flint Michigan, ?-Indiana, Toledo-Ohio, and 2 other locations l didn`t catch. Has anybody seen more on this.?

defend General Motors USA all you want

I’m not defending GM, I’m defending Holden. I’ll admit GM make crap. Holden don’t.

but raw figures don’t lie

No, but they can mislead, as I just showed the “down 9.1 per cent” figure was misleading. And the raw figures supplied by the outgoing CEO showed that their figures added up. Until the Government pulled the subsidies.

ave you considered that Hockey may have more info than you and id simply ‘playing” the issue …?

Briefly, but, going on their 100 day record, it is unlikely. Everything they have done to date has been ideological. This looks no different. Although, glad to see someone here admit the hand Hockey played in Holdens demise.

Mr-Eleventy had more info than the general public.

‘Although, glad to see someone here admit the hand Hockey played in Holdens demise.’

Bullshit, it was all Xi’s doing.

‘The global boss of General Motors, Dan Akerson, says it is too expensive to manufacture cars in Australia – an ominous sign for Toyota, which is reviewing the future of its Altona facility after Holden’s decision to shut its car factory in 2017.’

Joshua Dowling / Daily Terror

Government should invest in new manufacturing, like the very fast train project, but it would be more popular if they sold bonds for infrastructure building.

‘it is on record that had Labor won the election, Holden would not have left.’

I doubt that, it was a commercial decision. Anyway, we don’t need to make cars nobody wants.

The future is now, we need to start planning to build very fast rail or hyperloop and get the jump on the yanks.

http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/is-elon-musks-hyperloop-already-killing-californias-high-speed-rail

From that link …

‘Looked at cynically, the Hyperloop was just a cleverly-disguised piece of anti-CHSR propaganda, an ostentatious display of Musk’s genius and billions masking average NIMBY-ism. Musk himself has acknowledged that the Hyperloop will probably never materialize.’

However I love ….

Unfortunately Neil of Sydney, it was very apparent that Holden would stay under Labor

In the unlikely event that Labor won the election, Holden would have stayed. Labor was promising $1.5?billion in industry assistance between now and 2015 and $300 million a year after that.

http://www.afr.com/p/national/government_treatment_of_holden_was_QwElLu2O3lse6cNIradzzI

You have repeated the same thing like 5 million times

Probably because you keep saying that it isn’t true. You obviously recall me posting it, then you say it isn’t true. It is not an opinion he is offering, it is a simple fact which was an arrangement you yourself have highlighted between Holden and Gillard.

You even managed to call Gillard a liar because Tony Abbott changed the arrangement, which basically meant the deal could no longer be upheld

Quite a remarkable act of sophistry imo. The Liberals renig on an arrangement, and that is somehow Labors fault?

What this does highlight is that, under the arrangement Labor took to the election, Holden would have stayed. The Liberals did not honor that arrangement, and Holden left. The conclusion is very simple to see after that.

Splitting Hairs

Good one egg, blaming Labor for the Liberals stuff up is just “Splitting Hairs”

Is anybody supposed to take you seriously at any time?

GM would have gone sooner or later

That is your opinion, my opinion was that the Holden brand had a long way to go. The Liberals made their death reality, by their own doings.

Of course, if you want a Government that folds at the first hurdle, so be it, it looks to be that is what we have.

Personally, I prefer a Government that is prepared to fight for its citizens and their well being.

No, with Joe it was all theatrics, GM had already made up their mind before his brief excursion from the script and he knew it … at least in his heart.

‘Again, that is only your opinion…’

Can you give me a quote from management which shows their angst at Joe’s outburst?

So JJ are you also blaming Gillard for Ford’s departure ?

And Mitsubishi ?

The government turned off the life support for a brain dead patient. Too much money being spent with no hope of salvation. Seems the patient died of basically self inflicted wounds.

What I’d like to know is why is the taxpayer forking out $ millions or to bury the stinking corpse of Holden Unionism.

They’ve got 3 or 4 years to get off their collective fat lazy arses to retrain themselves. Why are we paying for it. ?

‘ ‘ ‘ ‘it was very apparent that Holden would stay under Labor’ ‘ ‘ ‘
.
That smells like afr propaganda Jagged, GM may be re-tooling in teh-usa, and have tooled up in China/Thailand, pissing around with a couple of tiny out-posts at the arse-end of the planet may not be worth the time and distraction from GM`s main-game.

‘read the text message, sent by a company insider.’

Doesn’t pass muster, but I concede a point, Devereux was quick off the mark. If GM was looking for a catalyst, Joe gave them the incentive. Good man, make a great PM.

GM had already decided it was too marginal in Oz and would go elsewhere for good commercial reasons.

Holden has all the qualities of a state owned operation in China.

Holden were going, that’s it. Hockey knew it so he pressed them to make the announcement at a time convenient for the government rather than convenient for GM.

Is there any doubt about that?

Hockey took advantage of the moment, being a showman, and it did him no harm.

The test for Mr-Eleventy will be,
Can he keep Toyota and Qantas OFF the welfare nipple.?

‘CABINET ministers have hit back at another plea for industry assistance, amid fears of setting a “dangerous precedent” if they give in to demands from food processor SPC Ardmona to help cover its rising costs.

‘The government is close to rejecting the company’s call for aid out of frustration that it needs taxpayer cash to generate a 14 per cent rate of return, sparking concerns that there would be no end to the list of companies wanting the same help.’

David Crowe / Oz

“I wonder if the mining magnates are getting nervous about their diesel fuel rebate, after all, isn’t that just another form of “industry assistance”?”

Not really,

It just recognises the fact that they are using their OWN diesel powered vehicles on their OWN roads constructed using their OWN money which after they are gone will revert to public ownership.

Try another ?

It just recognises the fact that they are using their OWN diesel powered vehicles

Holden were using their OWN Factories testing their OWN cars on their OWN roads

Try again

“Holden were using their OWN Factories testing their OWN cars on their OWN roads”

Yeah………………directly funded by the taxpayer over many generations and now of little intrinsic value unlike a road tarmac

Try again

I suppose you are OK to get rid of the Right Wing Think Tank State Media………………………..the ABC and SBS

I am

little intrinsic value unlike a road tarmac

Yea, cos they leave their roads pristine when they are done.

directly funded by the taxpayer over many generations

over many generations? And so unlike the roads the mining companies build to nowhere but their mines, with money from Government subsidies (oops, didn’t mean to swear)

and now of little intrinsic value

Tell that to the real estate agents.

I didn’t realise it was the “in thing” for the latte set to set themselves up in crash dummie labs.

Perhaps they do it just before taking advantage of that Road to Nowhere the mining company built

Looks like Toyota is going also due to human greed and Union stupidity and of course ALP supporters

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/the-labor-lawyer-and-the-death-seal-20131218-2zlca.html

“On Thursday, Toyota workers begin their three-week Christmas holiday, the longest shutdown in Toyota’s global manufacturing operation. Plus there’s their 17.5 per cent holiday pay loading, plus double time-and-a-half when they work on Sundays, plus shift premiums, plus generous long-service leave, plus no medical certificates for sick days, plus time off to give blood (usually on Fridays) – all of which the chief executive of Toyota Australia, Max Yasuda, has warned is unsustainable.”

Toyota wanted to shut down for 10 days only but Unions want 3 weeks. The countries they export cars to do not shut down because they do not celebrate Christmas.

And it looks like Toyota workers do not give a stuff about the component suppliers who will also lose their jobs if Toyota goes. These workers are on “normal wages” unlike the bludgers at Toyota.

TB

A Chartered Accountant or ACA as we are known must first have a university degree or equivalent. I know of no exceptions to that. I did an initial 3years at University of Sydney during Abbott and Latham’s time there (and then my Masters at UNSW but the Masters is not relevant to being a CA).

After completion of your degree you need to become a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Australia (now including NZ). In order to get associate membership (you can get a “fellowship” later on) you MUST do what is known as the Professional Year (PY). No exceptions unless you are a member of an equivalent overseas body like the Institute of Chatered Accountants in England, Scotland and Wales.

The PY as its generally known is VERY rigorous as you are doing part time night school plus full time work at a CA firm. These days you can work anywhere in any accounting field but you must be mentored by a CA . When I did it you had to do a 5,000 word assignment every 3 weeks for 10 months plus 2 x 4 hour exams at the end of 10 months. It had a very high (25%) failure rate. Now it’s done in a modular/semester format over as long as you like.

You must pass the PY to become a CA and you must maintain your membership by paying the $850 pa fee plus completing 28 hours of continual professional training each year (read attending seminars).

On the other hand CPAs can work anywhere and do their own course to become CPAs.
As the course was traditiuonally a lot easier than the CA PY they are far more numerous in numbers.

The quick way to test your mate is to ask him when he did his PY. If you get a blank stare he’s a fake

Eyes struggling to stay open……………falls off chair………………….. wakes up on floor

I’ve used forensic accountants to assist to recover fraud in companies

His business card should read ACA to designate Associate Chatered Accountant or FCA being Fellowship ditto ditto.

He’s a fraud and The Australian Companies and Investment Commission ASIC
would be very keen to meet him.