The Tories want their “Right to Offend” back.
The so-called “Freedom Commissioner” Tim Wilson
Australia’s new human rights commissioner, Tim Wilson, has called for the full repeal of the s18C offensive speech provisions of the Racial Discrimination Act and has flagged defamation, online speech and the film classification system as areas he would be considering in his new role.
Wilson was appointed by the federal government on Tuesday to the commission, leaving his role as policy director of the Institute of Public Affairs.
“Increasingly free speech has been pushed aside in favour of laws and regulations designed to stop people being offensive to each other, a steadily expanding corpus of anti-discrimination and defamation law, and the growing momentum towards restrictions on speech online,” Wilson wrote in the Australian on Wednesday.
Wilson, who has also resigned from the Liberal party to take on the role, argued free speech was “being neglected” and he would be focusing on aspects of individual freedoms. He said he supports the full repeal of s18C of the Racial Discrimination Act which deals with offensive behaviour.
“The most obvious freedom of speech issue this parliament will face is the Coalition’s promise to repeal section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act. Section 18C has recently been controversial because of the Andrew Bolt case but, as its supporters are first to say, it has been used against many other Australians.”
But Stephen Blanks, the secretary of the NSW Council for Civil Liberties, said Wilson’s focus overlooked more serious human rights breaches.
“They are issues which can be focused on, but they’re not the most important issues a human rights commission should be addressing at this time. Australia has plenty of other breaches of fundamental human rights,” he said.
“The arbitrary detention of people on national security grounds with adverse ASIO security assessments without any proper review process is obviously the most serious breach of fundamental freedom that could be imagined.”
Blanks also questioned Wilson’s commitment to pushing for the full repeal of s18C of the Racial Discrimination Act.
“Repealing the section altogether would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We need strong laws which prevent Holocaust deniers from going about their trade and other people that want to attack people on purely racial grounds and stir up racial violence,” he said.
The federal opposition and the Greens have reacted with scepticism to the appointment. Shadow attorney general, Mark Dreyfus, said the appointment was part of the government’s “political agenda”.
“By appointing Mr Wilson, Senator Brandis has sent a strong signal about exactly the kind of blatant political agenda he wishes to pursue as Attorney-General.”
“How can Mr Wilson possibly undertake the role of a Human Rights Commissioner when it’s obvious he has such contempt for the commission itself,” Dreyfus said.
Greens senator Penny Wright expressed similar concerns and said attorney general George Brandis “had already made it clear he thinks some human rights are more important than others, including that free speech ought to trump anti-discrimination laws.”
Some concerns have also been raised over Wilson’s commitment to freedom of speech in previous comments he has made. In a May 2011 tweet Wilson wrote:
“walked past Occupy Melbourne protest, all people who think freedom of speech = freedom 2 b heard, time wasters … send in the water cannons.”
The president of the commission, Gillian Triggs, speaking on ABC Radio, offered support for Wilson’s appointment, but cautioned against playing party politics with the commission.
“This is not the place for party-political rhetoric,” she said.
In a later statement on Wednesday, Triggs welcomed Wilson’s focus on freedom of speech. “Mr Wilson has seven years’ experience as policy director at the Institute of Public Affairs and is particularly concerned to support Liberal approaches to freedom of speech,” Triggs said.
“We look forward to having him join our team as we continue to meet the challenges of protecting human rights in Australia.”
theguttertrash.com 
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-19/hetherington-the-opportunistic-embrace-of-free-speech/5166896
This Brand X prick is going to stamp his torrie ideology all over his office and the Arts
When asked if he – like Mr Wilson – believed that Section 18c should be abolished, Senator Brandis replied: “That’s something I’m looking at at the moment”.
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tim-wilson-appointment-to-human-rights-commission-stirs-controversy-20131217-2zjbk.html
“The right to be heard’ wasn’t that the central plank in Bolt’s argument? Poor old Tim, he thinks that freedom of speech applies only to him and his ilk to say what they like through insinuation and innuendo. So now we have freedom of speech but not the right to be heard. Hmmm….think that there maybe a contradiction in terms here Tim?
Being a free speech extremist, I’d allow almost any speech, with the possible exception of yelling “Fire!” in a crowded theatre, or defaming another person (but there are already laws to cover those). The is no “right” not to be offended (or there shouldn’t be, anyway).
“So now we have freedom of speech but not the right to be heard.”
Don’t worry Ed. There are thousands of people like you wandering the streets muttering nonsense. They are free to speak, but no one listens. There is no right to an audience. When protesters get in peoples’ faces the issue is one of common assault, not freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech does not make legal what would otherwise be illegal such as fraud, extortion or threatening to kill someone. The “yelling fire in a crowded theatre” analogy is wrong-headed. The reason that is illegal is because to do so is creating a public mischief.
The “yelling fire” cliche comes from a US case where it was used to justify the prosecution of a person who was agitating against conscription during WWI.
‘There are thousands of people like you wandering the streets muttering nonsense.’ You’d obviously know more about that than I would SB!
Only if you are oblivious to your own circumstances.
This will get interesting.
Yeah.
It was a short honeymoon, 350,000 voters have cooled on the government, so Peter Smith went in search of answers.
‘Part of the answer might be found, I thought, by taking a walk on the wild side and finding out what those on the left think. I emailed a left-wing chap whom I know who is personable, intelligent and honourable, if that can be imagined. He came at me with guns loaded. He asserted that in three months the new government had destroyed diplomatic relations with Indonesia, put our relationship with China in jeopardy, broken a promise on public education funding which might further erode the relative educational performance of our children, demolished the car industry and left Qantas out to dry.
‘So there you have it. However, leaving the hyperbole aside, there was nothing I didn’t know about. For the most part the government was hijacked by events (Indonesia, China, Holden, and Qantas) which were none of its doing.’
Quadrant
“He asserted that in three months the new government had destroyed diplomatic relations with Indonesia, put our relationship with China in jeopardy, broken a promise on public education funding which might further erode the relative educational performance of our children, demolished the car industry and left Qantas out to dry.”
That’s all true, if you get your news from Twitter,
Twitterspeak is very popular with leftoids.
lt seems Mr-Eleventy has been out-shining Mr-Rabbit `and` Mr-Talkbull from what l`ve seen, none from Twitter, lpad`osy and Dumpty.
The new technology is having an impact, wooing the leftoids back. Its the only realistic explanation for such a short honeymoon, the government was hijacked by events and the twittersphere came alive with left wing bias.
NTTIAWWT
Yeah its a leftoid twitter conspiracy. This is why the right need retarded NBN speeds to keep sync with the retarded thinking.. Mal in a muddle is too busy like the rest of the idiot ship employing his inside trading mates from Oz email.
‘Yeah its a leftoid twitter conspiracy.’
Its not an organised conspiracy, more likely the left are better skilled in the use of social media.
‘FORMER human rights commissioner Sev Ozdowski has lashed critics of Tim Wilson’s appointment to the peak rights organisation, accusing them of double standards. The appointment has sparked a storm of vituperation on social media directed at Mr Wilson’s membership of the Liberal Party and his work at the free-market Institute of Public Affairs. Media watchers warned that freedom of expression – the right Mr Wilson has been specifically charged with defending – was under threat.’
Christian Kerr / Oz
“Twitterspeak is very popular with leftoids.”
Short sentences with symbols play well to……………you know who you are.
I strongly agree with this…”There is no “right” not to be offended (or there shouldn’t be, anyway).”
People need to either avoid that which makes their skin crawl & their retributive animosity rankle…or Harden The Fuck UP.
That being said, defaming, deliberately misrepresenting, wilfully dangerously misleading & inciting to violent prejudice isn’t free speech…& as much as Herr Bolt has tried to be a bastion of ‘free speech’, his internet presence is too long & indistinguished to carry that farce.
I am utterly against people being constrained from expressing dumb, ignorant, inflammatory, wrong or upsetting opinions. Enough laws already exist to deal with genuine ‘threats’…& Bolt isn’t one, he’s just a conservative cockshiner playing to his niche.
‘ …he’s just a conservative cockshiner playing to his niche.’
Yep, pretty much. I respect and applaud him on CC, but his racial vilification is pathetic.
I agree with TBoss. It is outrageous that the pathetic old Nazi Fred Toben was jailed for his anti-Semitic statements. Thoughtcrime indeed.
More thoughtcrime jail time.
Wiki on the Toben case: ‘The case caused some controversy in the United Kingdom, with the Liberal Democrats’ home affairs spokesman Chris Huhne expressing concerns that the extradition would amount to an infringement on the freedom of speech. Also British historian Geoffrey Alderman criticised Töben’s arrest and the tendency “to enforce particular interpretations of history under the guise of combating racism and xenophobia”. According to Alderman, “the task of the historian is to investigate, confront, challenge and, if necessary, correct society’s collective memory. In this process, the state ought to have no role whatever, none at all. Certainly not in the UK, which delights in presenting itself as a bastion of academic freedom.”‘
Quite so.
Rodney Croome has come out in support of Tim. He is rather cute. I mean what red-blooded man among us hasn’t tried to catch his eye at Palms.
How many here actually read Bolts article? It was very very offensive. The premise of which was people just say they are aboriginal to further their careers. See the bottom line is Bolt will say anything and usually lie or distort fact to build his brand.
“The premise of which was people just say they are aboriginal to further their careers.”
Some likely do. And did he say ALL of them ?
There is no accounting sometimes for behaviour where a buck is to be grabbed
The premise of his article was that: a) there are certain (government) programs that are designed to assist disadvantaged aborigines; b) there are certain people of mixed ancestry who self-identify as aborigines; c) there is a subset of this group that participates in the aforementioned programs; and d) there is a subset of this subset that might be classed as urban middle-class, or, at least, not disadvantaged.
‘The premise of which was people just say they are aboriginal to further their careers.’
Yes, but he went off the rails when he pointed out the skin colours. A person might be aboriginal in the head and could do with a leg up into mainstream.
“A person might be aboriginal in the head”
😯
“It was very very offensive. The premise of which was people just say they are aboriginal to further their careers.”
Obviously the premise of the article is and should be a matter open to discussion. The reason it is an issue at all is the that in the world of identity politics preferential treatment is doled out on the basis of race, not need. This is sick, wrong and divisive.
“The premise of which was people just say they are aboriginal to further their careers.”
Yeah? It is quite common here…Lawmakers to the “common” folk use racial identity for preferential treatment here; doubt it is much different down your way…
“A person might be aboriginal in the head”
Its a matter of culture.
Positive discrimination seems to have worked in the US, but from this distance one can’t be sure.
Yes, but he went off the rails when he pointed out the skin colours.
True. But he got in trouble because his facts were wrong.
And, interestingly, the judge pointedly said he could continue to write about this specific subject in the way he had. Just get your facts right when you are accusing people of things
Possibly, I didn’t follow it too closely.
People thinking `free-speech` in the `white-aboriginal` woes of bolt are incorrect. You`re being played. Our implied `free-speech` refers more to individuals. When abusing the `white-aboriginals` both bolt and the editor were stuffed because,
1-bolts ramblings were hurtful, insulting, degrading, defamatory
(all `aspects` on the same measuring scale)
2-bolts blurt was factually incorrect, which the editor too, didn`t fact-check.
.
Team-bolt continue to try and label his spanking by the judge as `free-speech`, which it very-largely is not. When you`re the largest press-org you have `responsibility` for your `right` to publish.
Personally I think it is healthy that so many people are (re)claiming their indigenous heritage. Many capable people are contributing to indigenous arts and culture, and it is quite beyond me why some critics object to this.
Bolt seems to miss the point, support isn’t about skin colour, it’s about cultural support, and preservation. Without a sense of pride in their culture, indigenous people are unlike to get much benefit out of an apology.
I agree in total.
The reason it is an issue at all is the that in the world of identity politics preferential treatment is doled out on the basis of race, not need. This is sick, wrong and divisive.
Agree! If someone “looks” caucasian and is in fact Aboriginal WGAF … except Bolt, I suppose …
… personally if you are any colour at all that’s fine with me as long as you are a nice person … that goes for creed, culture, age, gender … woe betide if you play the arshole tho’ … 😈 (the “symbol” is especially for Wally, CPA* – he still hasn’t mastered smileys – 😆 )
The reason it is an issue at all is the that in the world of identity politics preferential treatment is doled out on the basis of race, not need. This is sick, wrong and divisive.
With the greatest of respect, I think this is crap. Indigenous culture has been marginalized and distained, much of the criticism results from people of that heritage occupying publicly funded positions that seek to advance the culture and interests.
The government throws hundreds of millions (billions?) at “the arts” (usually just a low grade imitation of European culture), …so specific programs that advance actual Australian culture, create a sense of pride and reconciliation and promote indigenous role models…seems a reasonable and worthwhile area of public expenditure.
Without a sense of pride in their culture, indigenous people are unlike to get much benefit out of an apology.
I understand and agree with that statement, ToM, but is it “a pride in their culture” or a longing for others to have “pride in their culture” … ie the rest of Australia — that is a combination of so many cultures?
… quite frankly I think it should be a pride in the Aboriginals in our professions and industry who are making a mark too …
My own heritage has been traced back to 1515 … Norman … but my culture goes way back further … while I’m fascinated with it I am proudly (by choice) an Australian … I live in the present and so do many Aboriginals who don’t get recognition … they are Australians with a different cutural background to mine but still Aussies ..
Dwelling on the “past” is never a good thing … looking to the future is what life is about …
Its a complex question but often made so by “do-gooders” …
… acceptance of Australian people from any cultural background is important … and I agree, the recognition of our First Australians is the foundation of that premise …
I prefer a total integrative approach (ie we are all Australian) to our society rather than a piecemeal multi-cultural approach … (ie some are more important than others)
Check the times ToM … I’m a slow keyboarder BTW …
TB – I prefer a total integrative approach (ie we are all Australian) to our society rather than a piecemeal multi-cultural approach
Indigenous people should have a sense of connection with their cultural heritage, this will assist to overcome their dispossession. Indigenous people deserve –
• Respect and pride in their culture, particularly their art
• Role models that aren’t only footballers
• Support in publicly funded positions that promote the above
I’m really not sure what an “Australian” culture is, but as these people were first here with their culture, it is the one that deserves preservation and support.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Bolt seems to miss the point, support isn’t about skin colour, it’s about cultural support, and preservation. Without a sense of pride in their culture, indigenous people are unlike to get much benefit out of an apology.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
Bolt put `white-aboriginals` on his `culture-war` play-list because teabags generally oppose `social` programs/welfare. Even after the Eatock ruling, bolt was still `dulux-color-charting` the aboriginals, only by photo, not text. The `whitest` aboriginals photos were used, and he would make sure a phrase like `indigenous-program` was also used to over-stimulate his trolls.
‘Bolt put `white-aboriginals` on his `culture-war` play-list because teabags generally oppose `social` programs/welfare.’
Disagree, Bolt went off on his own tangent and lost support from many of his followers. The culture war thingy is a leftoid invention.
Actually, el Gordo, Bolt himself has been going on again about the ‘culture wars’, even in recent weeks. It is no leftist construct.
But the cockshiner is on holidays now.
Thanx, I rarely go there so I’ll accept that its probably not just a ‘leftist construct’.
Dumpty, what is commonly called `culture-war` could be more accurately called `teabag-advertising` which if you want to troll back thru the blogs of `Miranda-Akerboltbrechtsen`, you would be able to find a definite `play-list`, which is regularly regurgitated. You can`t accumulate tens-of-thousands of attacks against Manne, the Greens or who-ever, without said play-list/pattern.
Could not agree more Tom.
I have long believed that all Australians should have a much greater knowledge of indigenous culture. I include self.
When you travel to the Kimberley, the Centre or far north, far far away from lattes and towering glass you realize how ancient is this country and its indigenous culture.
I was a total speck in those exquisitely dramatic landscapes with the mysterious marks left by aboriginal artists. Swallowed whole. Maybe I had a glimmering of whyan indigenous person feels so connected to country. I like to think so. It was scary too. I felt a bit like Miranda, not Deeevine, but Miranda who went missing in Picnic at Hanging Rock.
I hope aborigines are not as attached to the footballer-as-role-model obsession as the rest of us seem to be. You can’t read a British paper without having David Beckham hurled at you: most unappealing tattooed he is too, the scribbles are now creeping above his Italian designed collars. What will he look like when he is old and the ink is green and the pecs sag?
I have recently caught up with Redfern Now and I have been amazed by the acting ability of indigenous actors. Why do we not see more of these people?
Aboriginal culture is what makes this country unique and therefore interesting. My new year resolution is to learn much, much more about the original inhabitants of this strange place.
Thanks for the shove Tom.
There’s nowhere to put this so its OT but does this story ring any bells? Seems thieves are on all sides of politics … and often under simillar circumstances …
http://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/former-mp-scott-driscoll-faces-charges-over-donation-to-lnp/story-fnii5v6w-1226787713973
Its another fkn disgrace.
Further to the Nigella saga ….
Grillos raised in Plati, Italy, where ’90 per cent of people have criminal past’
They entered Nigella Lawson’s life by chance when she needed a babysitter
But their father was jailed for 15 years after snatching woman from her car
He held Tulia Kauten for four months before 400,000 euro ransom was paid
Francesca and Elisabetta found not guilty of £680,000 credit card fraud
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2527290/Mafia-past-Grillo-sisters-father-Mob-member-Michele-jailed-15-years-brutally-kidnapping-fashion-designers-sister.html#ixzz2o5SQ4loS
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Judge ye not the begat by the father … lest ye too are tainted …
She was had.
‘NIGELLA LAWSON has railed against a deliberate campaign to blacken her name, as sources claimed that Charles Saatchi, her former husband, had been trying to push allegations about a drug habit into the public eye for months. The celebrity cook was dealt a stinging blow when two sisters who had worked as her housekeepers for more than a decade were cleared of fraud charges in a case that hinged on the credibility of her evidence.’
Oliver Moody / Oz
She just has an affinity for the same recreational chemical escape that many a person indulges…& the bank balance to maybe let it get more than a toehold. 😯
* I don’t judge such things.
** The poor have to get their fix from whatever they can get their hands on…even if that’s nasty shit like KROKODIL…
*** Substance use/abuse is a very human trait…throughout the ages…it pervades all levels of society…
**** I’ve never bothered to watch any cooking show…I’d rather eat broken glass, coz that would be tres simple to prepare (I am well catered for in our partnership)… 😉
Egg – I was going to write that it must be tough being a law-abiding citizen of Plati if only 10 per cent of the population are clean skins. Then I remembered my own country’s criminal heritage. I wonder what the percentage is here. I do, of course, stand among the pure. I wouldn’t be sure of you Egg.
Btw – if the Grillo ladies do have a first gen connection to criminality you would have to say that they are far more attractive and stylish than our home-grown Underbelly lot.
The Italians and French are stylish at every level. We are not. I would lock us all up for assaulting aesthetic sensibilities.
Nicely said.
My people associated with Tilly Devine and I’ve worn handcuffs, so I cast no aspersions.
It appears Nigella was had, but it remains in the realm of Mail speculation.
Here’s a story for ToM …
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/exclusive-data-shows-where-sharks-were-caught-in-nets-this-year/story-fni0cx4q-1226788022532
Those cuffs must have been hard to snap on a little ovoid like yourself Egg.
Did you smack a warmest?
Getting back to Nigella.
I just heard a few summing-up-the-events-of-2013 comments which made me think.
Here is a glamour couple, the product of the age. Saatchi helped Thatcher sell the neo-liberal message. Nigella’s dad was Treasurer in Thatcher govt. She represents individual aspiration propelled by sex appeal. He sells images like her’s to the world.
Not happy. Not happy at all.
Should have made it clear. tHEY ain’t happy.
No its ended badly and that’s sad. Her dad is a leading CC sceptic and greatly admired.
I didn’t smak a warmist, being totally outnumbered on every occasion I avoid going out.
Egg – I suggest you start listening to the Chief scientist Ian Chubb on the matter of science in general and the so-called climate change debate.
I heard him this very day on Radio National.
I know about NigelLawson’s view. It seems one cannot believe in the power and potency of the Free Market and accept the reality, yes Egg, The Reality of climate change.
Good idea not to go out.
And that should have been a warmist. Did the all-knowing Bolt coin that word. Boy would I like to see him debate Chubb. That would be a comedy.
They should sack Chubb.
He’s a disgrace.
http://www.chiefscientist.gov.au/2013/10/climate-change-the-story-so-far/
‘The Reality of climate change.’
Are you familiar with my climate change parody? That big shiny orb is the main driver of our earthly climate and when Sol is off colour we catch a cold.
It should be getting lots of laughs, there is enough material to work off, but I’m not skilled in the art of satire. So the warmist and sceptic blogs throw me out in the street and lock the door. Reb kindly lets me hang around here for self illumination.
I can’t poss read papers on climate change. It is two days before Christmas and a woman has a lot of cheer to prepare.
Anyway you have your salon for all that hot air Egg. Maybe you should throw open the windows and let in some cooling breezes. Very restoring.
Chubb pinged an aspect of denialism that I have noticed. To paraphrase, clumsily, he said science was always subject to inquiry and adjustment making it difficult for scientists to argue against impassioned, emotional certainty.
And that is all I am going to say on the matter.
Regretfully I have an unscientific mind but I am smart enough to recognise people who know what they are talking about.
This country must take first prize as the Western world’s bastion of anti-intellectualism.
Yeah, I saw him say that, but his office continues to pump out propaganda on global warming, with the hiatus in full bloom. Very unscientific.
‘Regretfully I have an unscientific mind but I am smart enough to recognise people who know what they are talking about.’
Chubb comes a from a different discipline and is taking advice from the Klimatariat on climate change, which has proven to be bogus. He doesn’t think for himself on this issue, so he’s not very smart.
‘This country must take first prize as the Western world’s bastion of anti-intellectualism.’
That won’t wash, the Abbotteer is leading the charge as an international statesman. The first world leader to come out and say the ‘science is crap’, which is a good indication that he’s an intellectual.
“which is a good indication that he’s an intellectual.”
😯
He is a suppository of all that is wise. Indeed he is Egg.
‘The meaning of all this seems clear. Citizens of the consumer society are unwilling to risk the loss of any of their comforts. However they wish to feel good about themselves. The climate change denialists – the lobbyists and propagandists of the fossil fuel corporations; the right-wing commentariat in the blogosphere and the media; the anti-political correctness and anti-collectivist ideologues in the think tanks and the academy; the angry older generation of engineers and geologists – offer them the alibi for doing nothing they so desperately need.’
Robert Manne (not intellectual)
Egg – I thought you had written something wonderful until I saw the quotation marks and attribution, Robert Manne, intellectual.
How right he is.
Nobody wants to squeeze up in the train to allow another to sit down let alone give up some comforts to combat climate change.
Even without the looming threat of cc,I think it would be wonderful if we gave equal weight to the environment in every decision made.
It would foster creativity and technology.
Just imagine that in regards to the family home.
Houses placed on a block to take full advantage of light. Room for trees and eaves. Verandas. Houses so well designed that there is little need for additional cooling or heating. Glenn Murcutt designed such houses. Exquisite.
‘How right he is.’
His premise is wrong from the get go, so he’s not very bright, but otherwise I agree with your comment about Murcutt and intelligent design.
Well that is the point for a meeting of our minds Egg.
‘Regretfully I have an unscientific mind but I am smart enough to recognise people who know what they are talking about.’
They say that about Economists and their predictions based on Economic Models too
Ah yes Walrus but they are just hustlers and poker players who chase Lady Luck around the table.
I can’t add up either so I never take notice of that group.
Manne is ignorant of CC science, along with Chubb, so this places them on the wrong side of history and their reputations (as part of the intelligentsia) will be fatally flawed.
No Egg – you will be fatally flawed. Les oeufs sizzle v quickly in the heat.
Back to the salon with ya.
Glad to see you have placed Manne and Chubb among the intelligentsia where they belong.
I’m convinced the warmists will have egg on their face within 18 months, as the ramifications of global cooing set in.
Global cooing! Are the pigeons and turtle doves to be the only survivors of the conflagration?
Its merely an academic exercise, which I’m bound to win, and theoretically no lives will be lost. Some dislocations are to be expected, like Australia absorbing a lot more UK visitors during the northern hemisphere winter.
I certainly do not wish to win this argument Egg.
I long for ice.
I hate the sun.
Go Global Cooing.
ER, what’s this got to do with the “Tories right to offend”?
Return to you basket, egg …
You’ve now got IV threads to play on and you fk every other one up with yer CC BS … 🙄
Give ’em an inch and they take a mile! 🙄
You are Korrekt TB.
He has been pestering me all day.
I think he believes he is a free range egg.
It was D who raised the issue and under the convention I have right of reply, but for the sake of harmony I’ll move on.
Manne is not an intellectual.
Yes indeed. Smacking a warmist. Red button pressed.
One last thing …
On matter of cc and Manne’s advocacy thereof – he would have you on toast for breakfast Egg.
LOL! 😆 😉
Very funny Dianne.
Oh FFS Ian Chubb’s background is in medicine and Robert Manne’s is in politics. That hardly makes them experts in Climate Science no matter how many friggin’ Climate Change books or papers they have read.
I’ve read plenty of High Court decisions on all different aspects of taxation law but I don’t call myself an expert in any particular area of it. In tax its impossible to be an expert in all areas.
Chubb and Manne are total wankers if they think they are now climate experts.
Same goes for Ross Garnaut. He’s a f**king economist
“ER, what’s this got to do with the “Tories right to offend”?”
I think its more slanted to freedom of speech.
As in f**king stupid comments like “the science is in” and accusing people of being “denialists” in order to shut down any opposite views.
So in that case Egg’s comments do have some relevancy.
There are plenty of other examples of you lot of the extreme Bolshevik Left trying to shut down speech
🙂
Renaissance men, all. Not narrow minded specialists.
The layouts of modern universities are a metaphor for the artificial boundaries we place around knowledge. One block for economists, one for architects etc etc.
Manne is an arrogant, intolerant fool, intent on shutting down dissenting opinions. The only Renaissance man Manne resembles is Girolamo Savonarola.
Walrus is correct, its about shutting down the debate on an unsettled science, they have a lot to lose.
‘Dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true. It serves as part of the primary basis of an ideology or belief system, and it cannot be changed or discarded without affecting the very system’s paradigm, or the ideology itself. They can refer to acceptable opinions of philosophers or philosophical schools, public decrees, religion, or issued decisions of political authorities.’
Wiki
Bah humbug. T’is the season to be merry. Peace on earth. Goodwill. I have spent the day making all the preparations to cook up a storm tomorrow and have had one glass of champagne which has scrambled my weary brain. You would know all about that little Egg. So I will leave you to argue among yourselves. Happy Christmas all.
“You would know all about that little Egg.”
LOL…
Happy Christmas Dianne… 🙂
Dianne has a lovely turn of phrase, and could be a professional writer for all we know. NTTAWWT.
Oh yeah, happy Festivus.
Merry christmas trashers,
be safe, don`t guzzle and drive,
and happy new-years too,
(if l don`t catch up with`ya in-between)
#teabags 🙂
Yep, all the best to my colleagues at Trash.
The Reddit Banning, following on from Walrus …. ‘accusing people of being “denialists” in order to shut down any opposite views.’
Here is Brendan O’Neill / UK Tele.
‘Society is becoming increasingly intolerant of the expression of dissent on climate change. Anyone who raises sticky questions about the politics or science of climate change is branded a “denier” – echoing the victims of the Inquisition, who were likewise accused of “denial” – and risks being expelled from polite society.
‘Reddit might now feel very happy and smug about the fact that its science forums have become much more polite places following the expulsion of certain “contrarians”. But it should bear in mind the great liberal John Stuart Mill’s point that The Truth, including about climate change, can only be established through having the freest and frankest public debate possible: “Complete liberty of contradicting and disproving our opinion is the very condition which justifies us in assuming its truth for purposes of action.”
Now this really is OFFENSIVE LIBERALese …
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/morals-dont-come-into-it-mp-peter-dowling-cleared-by-parliament-over-entitlements/story-fnihsrf2-1226789442762
Continuing with our discussion on free speech.
‘Free speech has never been more contested terrain. It does not help that there is a creeping rise of more bureaucracy, more direction, more codes and more compunction that are, by their very nature, an intrusion by the state into the lives of its citizens.
‘Look no further than the scorching of Tim Wilson for having been appointed a Human Rights Commissioner last week, as if a libertarian has no place in the culture of human rights.
‘In a caustic analysis in Saturday’s Herald of how Wilson, the director of policy at the Institute of Public Affairs in Melbourne, was appointed a commissioner, someone at the Human Rights Commission was quick to smear Wilson, anonymously:
”He has got no relevant qualifications at all. He has been a climate change denier, has done no law, little policy, he has an arts degree and a masters in something but he had no technical qualifications in this field at all. I would say most of the staff are better qualified than Tim is.”
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/human-rights-narcissism-time-for-the-axe-20131222-2zswd.html#ixzz2oOHs0jwW
‘Sydney medical specialists issue ultimatum to governments to reign in rampant alcohol abuse.
‘A powerful, powdered form of ecstasy is rapidly gaining prominence in Australia.’
SMH
‘FOOD producer SPC Ardmona is under fire for telling 73 unionised workers they will be replaced next year with contract labour, as the company struggles to modernise its operations, rein in costs and boost productivity.
‘Unions accused the company of sacking its maintenance workforce as “sacrificial lambs” to appease Coalition demands to get its house in order, as SPC pleads for $50 million in taxpayer assistance from the federal and Victorian governments.’
Balogh and Baxendale / Oz
lronic aint it, the German owned Aldi supermarket chain gets its canned fruit via spc/admona,
while the (bigger market-share, Aust owned) coles and woolies chains import their canned fruit for their `house`brands,
same for coles woolies canned fish too.
While spc/ardmona face free-trade dumping,
1. Corporate welfare won`t save spc,
2. `bread and water` workforce won`t save spc.
Non union contract workers, the feared thin edge of the wedge.
Aldi have a policy (similar to the ADF BTW) they source fresh and as much locally as they can … German tucker is a bit safer than some of the food sourced by the big duopoly tho’ …
The Liberal Robber Barons at work … robbing the poor so the rich can have kids …
http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-groups-fear-5-gp-fee-will-hit-hospital-emergency-departments/story-fneuz9ev-1226791543887
People who now go to the doc and are bul billed are to be taxed $5 … so the sicker you are the more you pay …
The idea that this will “discourage” people making visits to the doctor is naive and stupid in the extreme … that it will “save” the government $750, 000, 000 is obscene … it will “earn” the government $750 million at the expense of people’s lives and health!
Why not exterminate all pollies … perks … the government would make far more money … or we could charge them $5 every kilometer they travelled at public expense AFTER they LEAVE parliament …
ROBBER BARONS at work … 🙄 🙄
As a matter of interest, is there any statement that the workforce will be non union?
Here’s the full story.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/spc-ardmona-sends-unionists-packing-brings-in-contract-labour/story-e6frg6nf-1226790905533#
Actually Dumpty, this misses the paywall,
http://www.news.com.au/national/spc-ardmona-sends-unionists-packing-brings-in-contract-labour/story-e6frfkp9-1226790905533
.
As you can see,
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘SPC Ardmona is under fire for telling 73 unionised workers they will be replaced next year with contract labour, as the company struggles to modernise its operations, rein in costs and boost productivity.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
this is gonna be a teabags wet-dream.
There doesn’t seem to be anything in that to say it is non union. Most contractors are unionised.
Is there any statement to justify the ‘non union’ comments?
in a factory setting, `contract labour` often means agent-supplied or `labour-hire`, the workers won`t be employed by spc, but xyz-labor-hire.
(Another daft yank idea, `manpower` is the largest employer in teh-usa.)
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘SPC pleads for $50 million in taxpayer assistance from the federal and Victorian governments.
Sharman Stone, the Liberal MP for the Victorian electorate of Murray, which is home to the Shepparton cannery, said she trusted SPC’s judgment that the job losses were necessary and the company was doing its best to increase “productivity and be sustainable in the future”.
The Coca-Cola Amatil subsidiary broke the news to some of the workers at 7am yesterday after they returned from their Christmas break.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
lf coca-cola won`t pay the welfare to keep spc going, then Mr-Rabbit shouldn`t either. lf Mr-Rabbit lacks the testicular fortitude to pull the trigger on this, then Mr-Eleventy needs to step-up. This should be a no-brainer for the teabags.
Decentralisation the O’Farrell way.
‘SKILLED workers are being lured to regional areas with the promise of a $10,000 grant from this week after the state government extended its relocation grant for people moving to the bush.’
Alicia Wood / Daily Terror
The are very few manufacturers these days that directly employ their maintenance workforce. They can’t maintain the skill and capability to push their plant reliability to the required level. Plenty of engineering contractors will risk their profit against guaranteed plant up time
Direct employment of engineers and tradesmen is a poor management practice
Direct employment of engineers and tradesmen is a poor management practice
No wiggle room there, ToM …
… and I for one, don’t believe in absolutes …
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘very few manufacturers these days that directly employ their maintenance workforce.’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
yeah true yomm, but if you`re inferring this to be the `spc` situation, l think you would find most of the 73-workers will be `line`(as in production line) workers, `not` maintenance
.
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘Direct employment of engineers and`/or` tradesmen is a poor management practice’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
bit of a blanket statement of teabag stupidity yomm,
depends on industry,
yeah okay, when shoving fruit into tins, ya can run the risk,
.
city power systems, cardiac hospitals, telco systems,
would all disagree with ya
Power utilities employ few maintenance trades, it is increasingly outsourced. Case studies show that the system reliability is higher following this.
Telcos, particularly Telstra have benefited from increased use of contractors and the reliance will continue but at an increased rate.
In house trades usually have archaic work practices, this can be addressed by use of a different employer. But this doesn’t translate to ‘non union’
””””””””””’But this doesn’t translate to ‘non union’””
l know ya Love ya `unions-boo` theme,
but it is the workers choice if he joins a union or not.
.
.
”””””””””maintenance trades, it is increasingly outsourced.””””””””
has been, but this could be changing,
.
””””””””Case studies””””””’
better to stick with reality,
.
”””””””””’show that the system reliability is higher”””””””’
doubt this too,
.
those of us who full-time `job-seekers`, have noticed a growing change in job adverts, which often include these type of phrases,
WE ARE ENDING OUR CONTRACTOR RELATIONSHIPS,
WE ARE RETURNING OUR SERVICE/MAINTENANCE/INSTALLATIONS TO IN-HOUSE,
AGENTS NEED NOT APPLY,
These are springing up across several trades and industry segments yomm,
even the businesses are having bad experiences with the `labor-agent` parasites and realized they fcuked-up by trashing their workforce, which often puts them at the bottom of the `desirability`list of the industry workforce, especially when the company was previously a highly desired employer.
In house trades usually have archaic work practices,
Maybe in your limited
visionexperience …I know you love the Yankee profiteering text books but they really do not work well here … or shouldn’t … because the scramble for the almighty dollar destroys society and industry … in that order …
”””””””””””””’you love the Yankee profiteering text books but they really do not work well here””””’ and failed spectacularly in teh-usa, yomm.
Detroit, the gold standard of teabag theory`s in practice.
************
TB, thanks for the brilliant Detroit pic. 😆
My favourite is one of Telstra’s experiences with a contractor
They identified their biggest single cause of service interruption and packaged the whole function up, including engineering and all the back office activities.
The contractor employed under 200 people to do the work of over 600 Telstra employees, the reliability increased significantly every year
SPC van probably expect a similar result
Fascinating yomm, but sounds a bit bullshitty, one-sided,
from what l`ve heard and know.
KNOW, after privatising telecom/telstra, `key`techs that had been laid-off, had to be re-hired to keep the system operational,
they held-out, until they got paid triple time.
HEARD, Syd and Melb older areas, desperately need many more `pairs`(cable) run, many are deteriorated and/or damaged,
also shortage of lines, due to `new-builds` in old-areas,
which means, blocks of flats built on land that only had a house on before, many more lines needed in some areas. Also include `home-offices`. Bet you don`t get that spelt-out in the `annual`report.
…from what I’ve heard and know
Very impressive credentials
😆
I might go and fix myself some cheesy snacks to go with this glass of red…
””””””’SPC vCan probably expect a similar result”””
` 😆 ` 😆 ` 😆 ` 😆
#WombatsFancyBookLearnin
#SurfboardHitWombatsHead
#WombatNeedsAGlassOfRed
yeah yomm, folks that stuff fruit into tins have the same tech/quals/knowledge as telcos 🙄
There is probably no (succesful) contemporary manufacturing facility that directly employs its own tradesmen and maintenance engineers.
This type of structure is a poor management practice
…………………..
I’m off for lots of red with some food
Yeah, contractors work wonders …
http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/worker-dies-in-wa-mine-accident/story-e6frfkur-1226791840472
My son and I were comparing notes on American motor mechs a couple of years ago (for those who don’t know, I began my career as an apprentice MM and my son was an army apprentice MM) …
What we discussing was the strange way that the Yanks “specialise” … one did brakes (only), another did engines, one did transmissions, another steering etc …
When a manager from my company returned from the States he told us that Service Advisors would write up a job (say a transmission issue) and the mechs who “specialised” in transmissions would then “bid” for the job … effectively undercutting each other (the business had a profit margin already established via flat rate times …
My son’s experience as a recovery unit NCO was that if the Yanks had a breakdown they had to wait for a “specialist” to diagnose the problem (ie a diff failure) and then they would call up that specialist … are you getting a picture here? … then they would either repair or tow … my son’s crew would go out, diagnose the problem and either repair or tow in a fraction of the time …
Contractors are “specialists” … businesses need more than that …
Isn’t it funny how managers and consultants don’t need any quals but everyone else does …
++++++++++++++++
Very impressive credentials
As good as yours …
””””””’are you getting a picture here?””””””’
Yep. We heard the exact same thing applied to yank combat/patrols in Vietnam, from an Aussie Vet years ago.
”””””””””””’Unions are concerned the company’s efficiency program is being prioritised over safety.
CFMEU Construction Division WA secretary Mick Buchan said his
union had received complaints about safety concerns at Christmas Creek in recent months, including
anonymous emails from workers who were worried about identifying themselves.
“We want the full gamut of potential contributing factors to be examined in detail, including potentially
unsafe working hours on site, the
capacity of unions to access the site to assess safety, the
replacement of experienced workers with cheaper alternatives – the lot,” Mr Buchan said.
He said the death was a huge alarm that something was wrong on the site.
“We need to get to the bottom of it quickly and accurately before anyone else is killed or hurt.”
Fortescue said another worker had suffered leg injuries in the incident.
The man’s death comes four-and-a-half months after electrician Kurt Williams, 24, was crushed to death while carrying out maintenance work”””””””””””
http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/worker-dies-in-wa-mine-accident/story-e6frfkur-1226791840472
Pay attention yomm,
read the fully story,
fly`s in the face of fancy book learnin and teabag theory
On a completely fucking unrelated matter Mr & Mrs Walrus were wandering thru the Bunnings of electronics that is JB HiFi on Saturday and I became completely hypnotised by an 85 inch, yes 85 inch(not centimetres) UHD TV
It was there for the giveaway price of $40,000.
This tech will be in our homes within 3 or 4 years.
You really have to see this technology and the unbelievable screen resolution.
Unbelievable
Mrs Walrus saw my hand move too close to my wallet and quickly dragged me away.
If you get the chance go and look at one
40K huh Walrus, and ya won`t get the maximum benefit out of it via Mr-Rabbits impoverished nbn, you`ll have to shell-out another 5to10K 🙂 #teabags
I’ve had a look at that link 7.30, and would point out that I’ve prevoiusly said that high levels of (inexperienced) contractors can have an adverse effect on safety. Look no further than the home insulation debacle.
This means more vigilance in safety, it doesn’t means avoiding more efficient organisational structures.
If you get the chance go and look at one
HTF do you get it through the door, Wally? In my family room you’d end up with neck strain … especially watching tennis!
I’ll stick to 46″ (40″ in the bedroom … 😉 )
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This means more vigilance in safety, it doesn’t means avoiding more efficient organisational structures.
The problem with contractors is that it is difficult to supervise them – minesites have difficulties because they often don’t have the same standards of internal structure in HRM, HRD, WH&S, PM etc. and many minesites revert to site employed personnell …
It sounds simple to have a Maintenance Manager/Engineer and half a dozen specialist contractors (see my comment above) but invariably there is not enough staff to actually organise and supervise contractors … and not all contractors are good at running a business most are tradies or operators with no management knowledge, skills or experience … the USA is crumbling because of these practices … low incomes … poor insurance (Australia has mostly destroyed Common Law action – following the American practice) – because many workplaces can’t/don’t know how to provide:
Safe plant & equipment
Safe & healthy workplace & access to it
Safe & healthy systems of work
Proper training & supervision
I would be interested in how you would do this:
This means more vigilance in safety
“HTF do you get it through the door, Wally?”
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm……………………LOL
I hadn’t thought of that actually.
Just had a look at what’s available content wise (since any picture can really only be as good as the camera taking it) and it seems there’s bugger all content to take advantage of it anyway.
Gawd I love JB Hifi. Sooooooooooooooo much cool stuff. Walked out of there with one of those Apple TV black boxes. Yet to connect it up.
Has anyone else got one ?
You should look beyond the Bowen Basin from time to time TB.
Not all industries are the same as Queensland mining, there are professional engineering and maintenance companies that will risk their entire profit against guaranteed plant reliability and OHS performance.
Just as external OHS support can provide better outcomes, so to can comprehensive reliability services.
”””This means more vigilance in safety, ”””-1
”””’it doesn’t means avoiding more efficient organisational structures.””’-2
Unfortunately, 1 can`t happen when 2 intentionally undermines it.
The problem with OUT-SIDE contractors is that it is difficult to supervise them.
Short-term Outsiders are often unable to be aware of site-specific quirks and hazards that endangers them.
SITES have difficulties because they often don’t have the same DANGERS, SO THEY NEED UNIQUE standards of internal structure in HRM, HRD, WH&S, PM, OH+S etc. and many SITES revertED BACK to IN-HOUSE employed personnell
It sounds simple to have a Maintenance Manager/Engineer and half a dozen specialist contractors but invariably there is not enough staff to actually organise and supervise contractors
which is the usual white-anting of correctly working systems, by never-ending trimming in management `cost-cutting`
and not all contractors are good at running a business most are tradies or operators with no management knowledge, skills or experience
and foreign business claiming their `staffs` fraudulent `quals/licences/tickets` are legitimate off-shore,
the USA is crumbling because of these practices, low incomes, poor insurance
Aust. is rapidly following, cranes and scaffolds have collapsed in nsw+ vic in recent years, and wall collapsing and killing 3-members of the public. These `events` are not accidents, but `events` caused by the stripping away of `safety-controls` in the business sector, as demanded by teabags.
*agree with tb too, btw, and borrowed some text 🙂
You should look beyond the Bowen Basin from time to time TB.
You mean like WA, NSW, Tasmania, PNG, Chile and the USA?
Coal, iron, bauxite, gold, silver copper, zinc, tin, lead?
Open cut, longwall, hard rock?
I have … and you?
That’s plenty of mining experience, but we were discussing SPC, which is food processing/manufacturing.
Is OHS a principal management responsibility, or is it approprite to outsource it?
””””’Is OHS a management responsibility,”””
Yes, by Law.
.
””””’or is it approprite to outsource it?”””
probably not a good idea to out-source to the lowest bid, something that can sink ya biz in oh-so many ways
by the way yomm,
needing to ask this,
””””’Is OHS a management responsibility,”””
actually shows how little you understand your fancy book learnin, and teabag talk-points,
It seems that you and TB are willing to support outsourcing of OHS , but oppose reasonable changes in organisations such as bringing in engineering and maintenance specialists
#GuffawGuffawGuffaw
#WrongWrongAndWrong
#TBdoesntSayThatEither
#FancyBookLearninWithoutUnderstanding
TB must be so pleased to have such a knowledge and articulate supporter.
Is OHS a principal management responsibility, or is it approprite to outsource it?
It seems that you and TB are willing to support outsourcing of OHS
Sorry to disagree again, ToM … but there is no question who is responible for H&S … management … in fact H&S professionals are removed from prosecution in most legislation … and the Principal Contractor is named … I’m also an advocate of industrial manslaughter (and industrial democracy) BTW …
As for the second statement “outsourcing” as a consultant still requires Management to sign off – after all they are responsible … as I often told my clients … “I recommend, advise and suggest – you have to make the decision” …
A simple way to remember it is – “who owns the workplace, plant, equipment, policies, procedures and PROFIT?”
And yer getting all this for free! FMD!
Did I tell you I also have grad quals in OH&S?
And four years as a frontline H&S Manager (in steel reinforcing products and reinfoced concrete building products) and four years as a Senior Training Consultant and then of course on and off for 16 years as a self employed consultant across most industries you can think of?
====================================
Happy New Year Trashers!
Britain’s Pickle
‘This is the week we throw open our jobs market to 29million citizens of two of the poorest countries in Europe.
‘Nobody knows how many Romanians and Bulgarians will come in search of work or benefits when interim restrictions are lifted at midnight tomorrow.
‘All we know is that the overwhelming majority of Britons – between seven and eight in ten, say the latest polls – want existing curbs to remain in place.’
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2530906/An-11th-hour-plea-safeguard-Britain.html#ixzz2p2xz6DQ0
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
“Our party took resolute action to remove… scum elements within the party last year.”
“Our party’s timely, accurate decision to purge the anti-party, anti-revolutionary elements helped greatly cement solidarity within our party,” he added, saying “factionalist filth” within the party had been “eliminated”.
Labor Deep Throat
‘THE Abbott government’s infrastructure tsar has stepped up its push for public asset sales, revealing privatisations would leave governments at least $64 billion better off even though they could no longer siphon off dividends from their ports, electricity and water utilities.
‘The Infrastructure Australia analysis counters claims by opponents of privatisation that state governments lose a lucrative revenue stream from the dividends, and is a fillip to the federal Coalition’s push for the sale of old assets to raise funds for new ones.’
Hepworth / Oz
Like very fast trains and satellite cities in the never never.
Double billing by Hate Media
‘HIGH wages and rising costs are preventing Australians from getting new road and rail projects that could lift the economy, according to business leaders who are pressing the federal government to tackle the problem.
‘The surge in construction costs includes a 74 per cent rise in wages and salaries over the past decade just as productivity growth has slowed, sparking a renewed fight over workplace reform.
‘As the peak union body hits back at the complaints, construction companies and peak business groups are warning the “high-cost economy” is depriving the community of the new infrastructure it needs.’
Crowe / Oz