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WorkChoices: Dead. Buried. Resurrected.

February 5, 2014

WorkChoices Never Again Badge (2)

The Boss has alerted us to a new report that shows that despite earlier assurances (and a written contract) that WorkChoices was “dead, buried and cremated,” the Abbott Government is planning to take the axe to penalty rates as the industrial umpire launches a new investigation into the current awards system.

Opposition Leader Bill Shorten is warning millions of workers could receive less money in their pay packets if penalty rates are cut.

The Coalition has encouraged the Fair Work Commission to carefully consider the “softening economic environment and labour market” as it reviews the modern awards system.

“In particular, the Commission should consider the impact of employment costs on employers’ decision to hire workers over the next four years,” it has warned in its submission.

The government also wants the system to be simpler, arguing modern awards are full of “a high degree of detail and can be difficult to interpret”.

“They can be particularly confusing for small business operators and individual employees who generally do not have specialist workplace relations experience,” it says.

The industrial umpire is undertaking its four-yearly review into the modern awards system and will hold its first conference today.

The Government acknowledges “significant changes” could be made as a result.

Labor believes the Coalition wants to cut penalty rates, arguing it is trying to “lean on” the Commission.

Mr Shorten has described the submission as a “radical proposal”, which he believes shows the Abbott Government wants to cut penalty rates and working conditions.

“Families are already struggling with cost of living pressures from this government – higher health insurance premiums, scrapping the Schoolkids Bonus and flagging a GP Tax,” Mr Shorten said.

“Not only does this government want to drive Australian jobs overseas – like we’ve seen with their disastrous decisions on Holden and SPC – they want to attack the pay and conditions of workers.”

Shadow Employment Minister Brendan O’Connor claims the government promised before the election it would not undermine employment conditions.

“But I’m afraid it’s clear now that as far as Tony Abbott was concerned, WorkChoices was not cremated, it had just been sedated until he was elected to embark upon a radical shift in the industrial relations landscape,” Mr O’Connor told The Gutter Trash this morning.

Unions are angered, warning the Government’s submission shows it will again back big business at the expense of the most vulnerable and lowest paid workers.

“It is unacceptable for the government to continue scapegoating workers for its own failures to protect jobs and industries, and workers will see this for what it is: a blatant campaign to cut wages and conditions of working Australians,” ACTU Assistant Secretary Tim Lyons said.

“Tony Abbott came to Government saying there would not be a return to WorkChoices but his actions make one thing clear – this is not a government that will look after working people.”

Included in the ACTU’s submission are requests to tighten the definition of a casual employee and to better lock in their conditions, as well as those of apprentices.

A spokesperson from Employment Minister Eric Abetz’s office said the Fair Work Commission will consider all of the evidence before making decisions over the course of the year.

“The Government encourages anyone who has concerns about the current Modern Awards to make a submission to the Fair Work Commissions review,” he said.

 

 

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548 Comments leave one →
  1. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 5, 2014 11:36 am

    I can understand that a process worker or a tradesman or a nurse should be paid penalty rates, eg double time for Sunday.

    I don’t really understand why a uni student should be paid near $40 an hour for serving coffee on a Sunday.

  2. OzFenric permalink
    February 5, 2014 11:54 am

    Workchoices was arrested today after a routine fact-check. In order to avoid identification Workchoices had undergone a comprehensive identity-reassignment surgery, but cursory investigation of its fingerprints identified it as the serial offender previously considered missing, presumed dead.

    (Inspired by http://gawker.com/convincing-sex-change-fails-to-keep-fugitive-from-get-498581760)

  3. TB Queensland permalink
    February 5, 2014 12:12 pm

    I don’t really understand why a uni student should be paid near $40 an hour for serving coffee on a Sunday.

    And I don’t know why CEO’s are paid multi million dollar annual packages, ToM … I can prove my assertion … can you …

    But Calombaris’ criticism is specifically directed towards the wages paid to waitstaff. Here he is even more off base. Waiters (‘food and beverage attendants’ in the language of the award) would typically be employed at Level 1, 2 or 3, depending on their skill, experience and range of duties. If they’re employed at level 3, their ordinary time minimum wage is $17.14, or $30 on a Sunday for a casual.

    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3769646.html

    BTW, Have you watched Elysium yet …

    I am really getting fed up with all the right wing lies, BS, deciet and utter nonsense … and when they are caught out not one says, “oh, sorry, I was wrong ..”

  4. February 5, 2014 12:39 pm

    Hey Tom if we adopt the charity Tips model the US has its a very slippery slope mate as most regression is.

  5. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 5, 2014 12:49 pm

    “I am really getting fed up with all the right wing lies, BS, deciet and utter nonsense

    Exactly.

    However left wing BS does not worry you.

  6. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 5, 2014 1:07 pm

    I can prove my assertion … can you …

    I’m actually interested in that answer too

  7. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 5, 2014 1:43 pm

    This might help Tom

    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3769646.html

    or not

  8. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 5, 2014 2:49 pm

    Fine, it’s $30 an hour for serving coffee. Students are in a different labour market, and $30/hr is high.

    There is an argument for having different penalty rates for bona fide full time students, in specified industries such as hospitality and retail.

  9. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 5, 2014 3:01 pm

    and $30/hr is high.

    Especially if they get the pleasure of serving drinks to such an obviously gracious customer as yourself whilst you and yours are out enjoying each others company on the weekend whilst they cannot. Did you own a plantation in a previous incarnation?

    Besides, Weekends are so over-rated.

  10. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 5, 2014 3:01 pm

    Current minimum is $31.50, plus super = $34.40

  11. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 5, 2014 3:12 pm

    It would be a mistake to assign uni students a traditional hours of work vs weekends mentality.

    Students seem to regard their work in cafes as an extension of their social life. It isn’t exactly grinding away next to a metal pounding machine.

  12. Walrus permalink
    February 5, 2014 3:55 pm

    “… and when they are caught out not one says, “oh, sorry, I was wrong ..”

    Oh how unusual for the extreme Left to trot out a deceitful piece of commentary AGAIN.

    Having some experience with the Award in question if any of you Lefties knew what you were actually talking about you would realize that firstly Level 1 waitpersons (if you can even call them that) are restricted to cleaning tables and picking up glasses. They cannot serve customers and cannot even greet them or seat them. So as a consequence Level 1s are hardly ever employed. They are basically cleaners i.e. No one except for very large beer barns employ such people on that classification.

    Let’s look at Level 2 why don’t we. OK these people can serve food and drinks but again they cannot greet or seat customers. Their base hourly rate is $17.49 (time and a half $26.24,double time $34.98, public holidays $43.73). Mmmmmmmmm………….. seems ToM is pretty close.

    Ever wondered why joints have the “Please Wait Here to be Seated” Signs at the front desk ? Well that’s because Level 3 can do all the above and they CAN actually greet and/or seat customers. Their base hourly rate is $18.09 (time and a half $27.14,double time $36.18, public holidays $45.23). Mmmmmmmmm………….. seems ToM is very close. In fact he’s absolutely correct once we add in the superannuation onto the ordinary hourly rate (its paid on OTE not on overtime penalties)

    “I am really getting fed up with all the right wing lies, BS, deciet and utter nonsense … and when they are caught out not one says, “oh, sorry, I was wrong ..”

    After such confected outrage I now await the “oh, sorry, I was wrong ..” bit

    ROFLMAO

  13. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 5, 2014 4:04 pm

    I looked at one of the awards, casuals are paid 175% of the ordinary rate for work on a Sunday.

    That’s nice for a student.

  14. Walrus permalink
    February 5, 2014 4:08 pm

    By the way the Casual Rates have a loading of 25% on the base hourly rate so $30 an hour is just a complete piece of bullshit. In fact I cannot see anything close to that in the Award that TB cited. A Level 2 and Level 3 Casual earns $43.72 and ($45.22 per hour respectively on Sundays.

    And dont ask me for a Link as I have the Award in front of me in hard copy. Go look at FWA yourself and look under Modern Awards

  15. Walrus permalink
    February 5, 2014 4:14 pm

    Most smaller cafes are now run by families and the extended family i.e. nieces and nephews. In Sydney the owners just cant be bothered with the bullshit stuff in the awards like staff not being permitted to even greet or seat customers lest they get slugged with a higher rate of pay.

  16. February 5, 2014 4:35 pm

    ”””””””””””””I can understand that a process worker or a tradesman or a nurse should be paid penalty rates, eg double time for Sunday.

    I don’t really understand why a uni student should be paid near $40 an hour for serving coffee on a Sunday.””””””””””’

    .

    Considering you have stated elsewhere that you `made more money than you ever dreamed of`, it is quite fascinating your `hatred` of `others` earning a living.

    .

    Considering you bleat incessantly `free-trade`clap-trap, doesn`t business `like`s to trade certain hours, and worker `like`s those pay-rates mean biz-and-worker together `are` engaging in `free-trade` between themselves, after-all `wait-staff` don`t have union/eba in your state yomm,

  17. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 5, 2014 4:50 pm

    I don’t think I’ve suggested a free market for labour, maybe you would point out where I’ve stated that.

    When a hardware shop couldn’t employ a school kid for 2 hours after school, I thought that was a stupid restriction. What about you?

    When a student is paid about $35/hr (as a minimum) for serving coffee, I think that’s unnecessarily high. You?

    There are restrictions on labour that don’t make sense for students, and an employment category that applies only to them makes sense. That’s hardly calling for a free for all.

  18. February 5, 2014 5:14 pm

    ”””think that’s unnecessarily high””’

    but you lack the spine to put a `number` to what you think they deserve,

    and as somebody who `earns more than ever dreamed of` you should also indicate your rate,

    (mr-rabbit demands austerity for cokes tin-stuffers, while he pockets $8000/week)

  19. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 5, 2014 5:22 pm

    The ordinary rate plus casual loading seems fair.

  20. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 5, 2014 5:23 pm

    When a student is paid about $35/hr (as a minimum) for serving coffee, I think that’s unnecessarily high. You?

    On a weekend, when the rest of the community is out enjoying time with friends and family.

    It’s called a society Tom, and one of the resons we have a designated time when everyone (well, almost) has time off is to strengthen that community bond, or attempt to anyway.

    For some people, who don’t want to do that, it is mana from heaven I would assume

    I would also assume those sort of people wouldn’t last long in a fairly people orientated job like “serving coffee”.

    They are called Penalty Rates for a reason.

  21. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 5, 2014 5:25 pm

    Heavens!

    ‘Your comment is awaiting moderation’

    Has reb turned over editorial control to CW during his sojourn?

  22. February 5, 2014 5:29 pm

    #TooGutlessForMeaningfulAnswer

  23. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 5, 2014 5:42 pm

    Has reb turned over editorial control to CW during his sojourn?

    You get what you pay for I guess

  24. Walrus permalink
    February 5, 2014 5:48 pm

    “Considering you have stated elsewhere that you `made more money than you ever dreamed of`, it is quite fascinating your `hatred` of `others` earning a living.”

    I there an intensive University Course that goes for 3 or 4 years that teaches people how best to serve coffee ?

    I only ask since plenty of University graduates don’t even earn $30 per hour yet you Lefties seem to believe everyone should be paid the same whether they are skilled or unskilled.

    Alternatively you choose not to recognize that certain people are actually talented and highly intelligent setting them apart from those of your own station which also makes them much sought after by Companies willing to pay them the big bucks for their talents whatever they may be.

    Should the inventor of the cochlear implant deserve to reap millions in bonuses for spending years of his unpaid time trying to solve a problem ? If he chooses to employ a CEO on a certain $ what the fuck is it of your business anyway ?

    If the CEO of ANZ increases EBITDA by 15% being a shareholder I’m quite happy about it and I certainly don’t give a flying fuck about what your opinion is. Unless you are a shareholder in BHP, RIO, WPL, IPL, TWE, AMP etc then you have no justification in complaining so just STFU

    You Lefties really do suffer from envy.

  25. February 5, 2014 5:53 pm

    @post ”””””’despite earlier assurances (and a written contract) that WorkChoices was “dead, buried and cremated,””””””’
    .
    the voters were stupid enough to put the reheated zombies back in, knowing full well where the teabags stood on employment, and the fetish to slash wages for corporate monsters,

    they bought the ticket, and now they have to take the ride for the next three years, let`s hope not too many `workers` and small business`s go to oblivion

  26. February 5, 2014 6:03 pm

    ”””’I only ask since plenty of University graduates”””

    now work for 6 or 12-months `trial` as unpaid-intern.

  27. February 5, 2014 6:06 pm

    ”””””Course that goes for 3 or 4 years that teaches people””””

    totally moot point,

    plenty of skilled trades people been thrown on scrap heap over last 3-decades

  28. February 5, 2014 6:10 pm

    If cafe-owner chooses to open on sunday and employ STAFF on a certain $ what the fuck is it of your business anyway ?

  29. Walrus permalink
    February 5, 2014 6:16 pm

    “now work for 6 or 12-months `trial` as unpaid-intern.”

    Like who specifically ??????????????????

    Links……………….?

  30. Walrus permalink
    February 5, 2014 6:18 pm

    “.plenty of skilled trades people been thrown on scrap heap”

    Typical “look over there” comment used whenever Leftoids dont have an argument………….as usual

  31. February 5, 2014 6:18 pm

    the rest of your unhinged blubbering shows how little you understand anything,

    for a start, wait-staff usually don`t work the whole day, they get 2,3,or4/hour shifts,

    they are `nearly` on-call, and don`t always have a job when they arrive, and get sent home,

    this 3-hours here, 4-hours there thing, does not suit most people, so l don`t understand ya`student-hate,

  32. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 5, 2014 6:20 pm

    “the voters were stupid enough to put the reheated zombies back in, knowing full well where the teabags stood on employment, and the fetish to slash wages for corporate monsters, ”

    I was around from 1996-2007 and i do not recall this happening. In fact unemployment went from 8% to 4% – a level not seen for a generation and wages increased.

    What i find amazing is how good lefties are running scare campaigns. You are the worlds best.

    AGW will kill us all. Workchoices will have us working for $2/hour.

    You may be correct about the dangers about how employers may have used the provisions in Workchoices but it was not in long enough for a judgement to be made.

  33. Walrus permalink
    February 5, 2014 6:20 pm

    Try answering the question.

    Oh…………………I forgot it’s blustering 2:45AMReportland

    2:45AMReportland seems a good name for you since few read or listen to you

  34. February 5, 2014 6:23 pm

    ””””Course that goes for 3 or 4 years”””””

    YOU RAISED IT

    “.plenty of skilled trades people been thrown on scrap heap”

    Typical “look over there” comment used whenever Leftoids dont have an argument………….as usual

    BIT UNHINGED

  35. Walrus permalink
    February 5, 2014 6:23 pm

    “………this 3-hours here, 4-hours there thing, does not suit most people, so l don`t understand ya`student-hate,”

    What are you on about ?

    I didn’t even address that you nutcase

  36. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 5, 2014 6:26 pm

    My income is hardly relevant to minimum wages and penalties paid in hospitality, but I think it was less than 10 times the average weekly income.

  37. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 5, 2014 6:27 pm

    I only ask since plenty of University graduates don’t even earn $30 per hour

    True. They’d be getting a lot more that if they were working on a Sunday.

  38. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 5, 2014 6:28 pm

    the voters were stupid enough to put the reheated zombies back in, knowing full well where the teabags stood on employment, and the fetish to slash wages for corporate monsters,

    True. We (collectively) only have ourselves (collectively) to blame

  39. February 5, 2014 6:30 pm

    ””””””””I there an intensive University Course that goes for 3 or 4 years that teaches people how best to serve coffee ?

    I only ask since plenty of University graduates don’t even earn $30 per hour

    ********************

    you aren`t continuing the `student-hate` that yomm began.?

  40. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 5, 2014 6:30 pm

    “They’d be getting a lot more that if they were working on a Sunday.

    Actually people on a salary don’t get overtime. Many salaried people work extra hours for nothing.

  41. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 5, 2014 6:30 pm

    but I think it was less than 10 times the average weekly income.

    Are you able to clarify that, it sounds very mumbo to me. Are you trying to imply that the minimum wages and penalties paid in hospitality is 10 times the average weekly income.

    Because that’s how it reads to me

  42. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 5, 2014 6:33 pm

    Actually people on a salary don’t get overtime

    Most salaried positions would have clauses written into contracts about this kind of work, and their salary adjusted accordingly, or penalties for those times applied.

    Many salaried people work extra hours for nothing.

    Then, they are being ripped off. Unfortunately, if they sign their contract like that, that is their fault. Maybe they should join a union?

  43. Walrus permalink
    February 5, 2014 6:37 pm

    “it sounds very mumbo to me”

    “Because that’s how it reads to me”

    I find it perfectly lucid

    But I can understand why you might find it rather challenging as he did use some words with
    3 vowels.

  44. February 5, 2014 6:38 pm

    ””””My income is hardly relevant to minimum wages and penalties paid in hospitality, but I think it was less than 10 times the average weekly income.””””

    that`s nice ya`pocket 9-weeks-av-wages every week, lucky you,

    but the people you`re critical of, wait-staff, struggle to earn one-weeks`average`

  45. Walrus permalink
    February 5, 2014 6:40 pm

    “Most salaried positions would have clauses written into contracts about this kind of work,”

    With that one single statement it is very clear that you have absolutely no idea how different levels of employed labour actually work.

    Your statement is just absolute bullshit and frankly not worth addressing any further.

  46. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 5, 2014 6:48 pm

    With that one single statement it is very clear that you have absolutely no idea how different levels of employed labour actually work.

    I’m on a salray, and I have clauses in it about overtime and weekends.

  47. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 5, 2014 6:49 pm

    salray = salary

  48. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 5, 2014 6:50 pm

    I find it perfectly lucid

    Then was I correct in my assumption about his implication?

  49. February 5, 2014 6:58 pm

    ”””salaried people work extra hours””””

    generally on flat rate, $x per-month or per-fortnight, and are usually office-based jobs, where the greatest danger is a paper-cut,

    coal-face workers, usually get hourly-rate, and some get various `extras` for danger, dirt, unfriendly hours,

    generally, the coal-face worker is doing more dangerous, exhausting, dirty stuff than sitting on their arse flying a desk, but the downward jealousy will continue from da`bags`

  50. February 5, 2014 7:11 pm

    ”””””””””’Most smaller cafes are now run by families and the extended family i.e. nieces and nephews. In Sydney the owners just cant be bothered with the bullshit stuff in the awards like staff not being permitted to even greet or seat customers lest they get slugged with a higher rate of pay.””””””””’

    that`s bullshit,

    rock bottom minimum has never worked for family/mom+pop/very-small business anyway, not here in Aust, nor teh-usa.

    they know that any hiring they do, they must create a worthwhile job for employee, if they don`t they will remain on the `job-interview` treadmill rehiring, instead of getting the actual benefit of having somebody reliable to run their biz.

  51. February 5, 2014 7:24 pm

    ”””””””””””’Alternatively you choose not to recognize that certain people are actually talented and highly intelligent setting them apart from those of your own station which also makes them much sought after by Companies willing to pay them the big bucks for their talents whatever they may be.””””””

    Disagree Strongly. l would say this is an employer weakness by a mile.

    Over the years, l have seen several business lose the majority of their staff by failing to recognize they should employ`em full-time, but instead left`em on the market as casual, only realized what they lost, once gone.

  52. TB Queensland permalink
    February 5, 2014 7:43 pm

    However left wing BS does not worry you.

    BS! Open yer other eye! And read some of my posts … DH!

  53. TB Queensland permalink
    February 5, 2014 7:47 pm

    Current minimum is $31.50, plus super = $34.40

    Get your facts right … just what do you do for a living ’cause you certainly don’t know anything about business … and certainly lacking in knowledge of the awards … FMD, ToM … I’ve been retired for NINE years and know them better than you …

    Generally, you have to pay super for an employee if they’re 18 years or over and you pay them $450 or more (before tax) in salary or wages in a month. It doesn’t matter whether the employee is full time, part time or casual.

    http://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Employers-super/Working-out-if-you-have-to-pay-super/

  54. February 5, 2014 7:53 pm

    ””””””””””you choose not to recognize that certain people are actually talented and highly intelligent setting them apart”””””””””

    this is bullshit too,

    boardrooms and management don`t hire/promote folks smarter/better than them,

    they are seen as a threat

  55. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 5, 2014 8:00 pm

    So TB, that means that they work about 3 or 4 hours per Sunday, to qualify.

    What’s your problem?

  56. February 5, 2014 8:09 pm

    ”””””””””””””recognize that certain people are actually talented and highly intelligent setting them apart”””””””””

    this is also bullshit on another level,

    an office or factory, could be filled with people of identical work-quality, education/quals, and all the hrm blah, blah, blah, (all-great)

    but when there is a `promotion`, only one is needed, and the `one` that is chosen, can often come down to `luck`, and what the boss `likes`, blonde or brunette

  57. February 5, 2014 8:15 pm

    ””””Open yer other eye! And read some of my posts”””””

    TB, ever get the feeling we are just training-up the ipa interns and young libz cubs

  58. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 5, 2014 9:10 pm

    A couple of links that are frankly not worth addressing any further.

    http://www.fairwork.gov.au/factsheets/FWO-Fact-sheet-Maximum-weekly-hours-and-the-NES.pdf

    http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/career-management/are-salaried-employees-entitled-to-overtime-pay/#.

    Of course, specific contracts will differ, but those links show that MOST salaried workers, if they have overlooked it in their contracts, will have a failsafe for unreasonable requests.

    And, if they are in a management position requiring weekend work, their renumeration will/should make up for lack of specific overtime pay.

    In my previous employment, we received penalty rates for supporting systems out of normal work hours, and it made the 175% of normal rates look pretty sad. We were paid either way, but only had to work in case of a call.

  59. TB Queensland permalink
    February 5, 2014 9:24 pm

    When a hardware shop couldn’t employ a school kid for 2 hours after school, I thought that was a stupid restriction. What about you?

    Until they have an accident …

    When a student is paid about $35/hr (as a minimum) for serving coffee, I think that’s unnecessarily high. You?

    No, the cost of living is high … limit the profits of business and then you can do the same for wages … wages increase based on price increase … carefully calculated by bean counters at Treasury and the RBA …

    BTW, how you much do you pay for a coffee in Melbourne now? (Compared to the actual cost of making it?)

    After such confected outrage I now await the “oh, sorry, I was wrong ..” bit

    If Calombaris is paying any of his waitstaff $40/hour on Sundays he is paying at least 33 per cent above the award. Good on him, but if he’s doing so then he can’t really claim that the award is the cause of his high labour costs.

    Did you even read the link I provided? 🙄

    And from the award

    http://aha.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/HIGA-2010.pdf

    Page 18 …

    The ordinary rate plus casual loading seems fair. But its not the fair rate has already been decided by “experts in the trade” …

    I’m quite happy about it and I certainly don’t give a flying fuck about what your opinion is.

    Unless you are a shareholder in BHP, RIO, WPL, IPL, TWE, AMP etc then you have no justification in complaining so just STFU

    You Lefties really do suffer from envy.

    Let’s go backwards here …

    Now I know you know that I don’t suffer from “envy” … but I do suffer serious bouts of justice and fairness that seems to upset and disappoint some folk …

    No-one is complaining just pointing out the injustice and unfairness of certain “arguments” put forth in this particular fred … and the gluttony of the few compared to the many …

    You don’t actually sound happy … in fact I think we actually pricked an indefensible position (probably not your conscience – bean counter an’ all that) … as for giving a flying fuck … that smacks of private schoolboy tantrums … and a suspicion that some of what we are saying may be right …

    Just sayin’ 🙂

  60. TB Queensland permalink
    February 5, 2014 9:39 pm

    So TB, that means that they work about 3 or 4 hours per Sunday, to qualify.

    What’s your problem?

    That they won’t actually earn the $450 a month … you are basing that on $40 ph no doubt … OK … that’s 11.25 hours pm … 2.8 hours pw … I bet I know what you’d be doing … at least they won’t be paying any tax. Will they Wally?

    A more realistic figure would actually be a max of $30 … (ie Level 3) …

    That’s:

    15 hours a month …

    4.75 hours per day

    Otherwise you will be paying super — another MASSIVE 9.25%! Or $2.76 an hour …

    BTW, I meant to ask earlier (been busy the last few days) …

    … was your original argument about students or, all casual wait staff or, all penalty rates in general?

  61. Walrus permalink
    February 5, 2014 10:18 pm

    “I’m on a salray, and I have clauses in it about overtime and weekends.”

    Well we can only take your word for that. How about an external link proving how common that is as you must be a rare one indeed. I’d suggest you must be supervising hourly staff for that to be the case as I’ve prepared hundreds of contracts and employment letters over the years and very few contain anything other than a fleeting reference to a governing set of “other conditions” referencing the NES.

  62. Walrus permalink
    February 5, 2014 10:22 pm

    Compulsory Superannuation is not payable on amounts above the ordinary hourly rate or on allowances.

  63. Walrus permalink
    February 5, 2014 10:25 pm

    245AM

    Just saying “bullshit” repeatedly is not a retort.

    Where’s that link to the interns not being paid on trial for 6 decades or whatever rubbish you sprouted ?

    Otherwise I say bullshit back

  64. Walrus permalink
    February 5, 2014 11:01 pm

    I note TBs hero Paul Howes has heard there is no longer a Bill Kelty type around in the Union Movement and has quickly moved to fill that void by admitting some workers are grossly overpaid and requesting a Union/Business compac

    ROFLMAO

  65. February 6, 2014 12:27 am

    Awesome Thread! 😯

  66. February 6, 2014 12:28 am

    🙂 They wouldn’t understand the Oathbreaker concept, TB.

  67. February 6, 2014 12:39 am

    I think if the current Federal government actually probes malignantly at Penalty Rates (across the board)…then it is proudly committing first term political suicide (even quicker than the post 2007 ALP, as it happens).

    Be that deliberately, ‘accidentally’, earnestly, clandestinely, vigorously, arrogantly, religiously, conservatively, fundamentally, ideologically, by proxy, disproportionately influential…or not.

    Noone, without access to the Towering Ivory Decision Clubs, wants the f u c k I n g…government to fuck around with their agreed conditions of employment. It can’t be sold, no matter how much anti-Union horror stories it is garnished with.

    This was Empirically Proven in 2007.

    Remember that, fundie fucksticks.

  68. Meta permalink
    February 6, 2014 12:44 am

    (As for my view, school-kids probably should be doing school or kid things, and higher ed. students probably should be studying, if that’s their full-time occupations, to reap a society-wide return on public investments in public educations; but, once again, either way, it’s probably a function of situational socio-economics and politics in action.)

  69. February 6, 2014 12:54 am

    I think the diversion regarding waitrobots is tangential to the government’s ideological proclivity for going after Penalty Rates of the Pampered Workers as a whole; by any means available, chimplogically or by subterfuge.

  70. February 6, 2014 12:55 am

    And also…DUMPING!

  71. Tony permalink
    February 6, 2014 6:33 am

    3. What is dumping? What are the welfare costs of dumping? Why would firms ever dump? Explain carefully.

    Dumping occurs when a product is sold in a foreign market at a price that is either lower than in the home producer’s country or below fair market value. The welfare costs of dumping are borne by the competitive domestic producers–they produce and sell fewer goods at a lower price than they would in the absence of the dumped product. Consumer welfare, on the other hand, is greatly enhanced-they are able to buy more of the product at a lower price. Gains in consumer welfare usually exceed the losses in producer surplus, with the country receiving the dumped product experiencing a net welfare gain.

  72. Tony permalink
    February 6, 2014 6:35 am

    ‘There is yet another problem with the charge of “dumping,” even when it is made by economists or other alleged “experts” sitting on impartial tariff commissions and government bureaus. There is no way whatever that outside observers, be they economists, businessmen, or other experts, can decide what some other firm s “costs” may be. “Costs” are not objective entities that can be gauged or measured. Costs are subjective to the businessman himself, and they vary continually, depending on the businessman s time horizon or the stage of production or selling process he happens to be dealing with at any given time.’

  73. Tony permalink
    February 6, 2014 6:36 am

  74. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 6, 2014 8:04 am

    Well we can only take your word for that. How about an external link proving how common that is as you must be a rare one indeed.

    Or the links I supplied above. I did say that most contracts will either have it written in, or the salary adjusted to make up for it. Most people on salaries earn far above the award, which is designed to cope with this.

    and very few contain anything other than a fleeting reference to a governing set of “other conditions” referencing the NES.

    If that is the case, if their salary isn’t high enough to compensate for this, then you are doing your clients quite a disservice without addressing this issue. Mind you, even then, they still have recourse to NES in many cases anyway, unless you have specifically written that out of the contract. And, if that was the case, I would assume that the remuneration more than took care of this. If not, they have been let down.

    I also note that nobody was able to confirm or deny Toms mumbo above, so I’ll have to stick with my assumption of what it meant for now then, until such time as a clarification is given?

  75. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 6, 2014 8:10 am

    Didn’t Tony Abbott promise to take care of dumping (assuming it can even be proved) before the election?

    Didn’t he also claim not to attack penalty rates?

  76. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 6, 2014 8:20 am

    TB – “That they won’t actually earn the $450 a month”

    Boy TB, I have no idea how you manage to get your bill paid with that mathmatical ability. Someone on $31/hr will have to work about 15 hours on to reach the threshold! (note – that’s less than 4 hours per week TB)

  77. Walrus permalink
    February 6, 2014 8:52 am

    “……….then you are doing your clients quite a disservice without addressing this issue”

    Where did I say the people the contract letters were for were my clients ?

  78. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 6, 2014 8:58 am

    Where did I say the people the contract letters were for were my clients ?

    Sorry, I made the assumption.

  79. Walrus permalink
    February 6, 2014 10:09 am

    “Gains in consumer welfare usually exceed the losses in producer surplus, with the country receiving the dumped product experiencing a net welfare gain.”

    Cant say I’m convinced ToSY.

    I recognise the net gain of the Country receiving the product but it’s only a temporary gain for them. And if the goods are being dumped by a Country overproducing, lets say tomatoes, then that is an example of overproduction in that Country which is not being an economic allocation of limited resources since we then have 2 countries producing too many tomatoes or 1 country being put of of efficient production because of temporary inefficiency (producing a surplus).

    Economics deals with the most efficient allocation of limited resources (at any period of time) and this is not a good example

  80. Meta permalink
    February 6, 2014 10:18 am

    (Here’s another fun question or two: how much energy/CO2 is consumed/produced in transshipping processed tomatoes hither, thither, and yon; and how well is that input/output priced in to a compleat economic assessment of dumping?)

  81. Walrus permalink
    February 6, 2014 10:39 am

    I suppose Meta it depends partly upon the “Use By Date” of the can of tomatoes plus the cost of transport. If it’s a European nation then the additional cost of CO2 is zero since they would have already purchased a CO2 permit on their Voodoo Hoodoo ETS covering the cost. If it’s a Chinese company its irrelevant.

    But the incentive to transport and dump would always exist provided there is still a net gain to it over and above any transport costs or other market entry costs. Even if there is Zero gain for the originating company if it is in excess of putting the cans in a landfill in lets say Italy then there is still an incentive to dump.

  82. egg permalink
    February 6, 2014 10:41 am

    Meta they don’t give a toss about their carbon footprint, Italian tomatoes were being dumped in Australia through EU export restitution payments and in essence they were breaking international law.

  83. Walrus permalink
    February 6, 2014 10:41 am

    And also ToSY such market behaviour when repeated must eventually lead to monopolistic markets which are certainly not efficient.

  84. TB Queensland permalink
    February 6, 2014 10:43 am

    I note TBs hero Paul Howes

    Noice one, Wally, LOL!

    Yeah, Piggy, is a real fave of mine … as you well know … 😆

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    and higher ed. students probably should be studying</i.

    M, in a rosy world I'd agree … but many doing a first degree need to at least help to support themselves (or their financial supporters in some way) … and degrees and VET diplomas and certificates don't come cheap today …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Gains in consumer welfare usually exceed the losses in producer surplus, with the country receiving the dumped product experiencing a net welfare gain.

    So, ToSY, is “dumping” a free market exercise to reduce the market price or is it a covert use of command system economics … either way it demonstrates what a fkn mess our “global economy” is in … and of course it proves, once again, there are no absolutes and pretty poor management all round …

    And I just read, Wally’s, comment … reinforcing my own take … (and I must concede a more succinct explanation)

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    (note – that’s less than 4 hours per week TB)

    That was my point, ToM, the coffee house /cafe owners will have a bank of casual labour and limit their hours … that’s why they don’t make ’em full-time … you must get out more and not on the board … or the swanky restaurants …

  85. egg permalink
    February 6, 2014 11:19 am

    ‘Predatory pricing (also undercutting) is a pricing strategy where a product or service is set at a very low price, intending to drive competitors out of the market, or create barriers to entry for potential new competitors.

    ‘If competitors or potential competitors cannot sustain equal or lower prices without losing money, they go out of business or choose not to enter the business. The predatory merchant then has fewer competitors or is even a de facto monopoly.’

    Wiki

    Being in Very Small Business (VSB) I’ve been driven out of the market a few times in the past decade.

    It goes like this, you spot a niche market and exploit it with a hole in the wall venture, then some chain moves in across the road and undercuts. That’s ok its a free market, so then the search is on to create some new VSB.

  86. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 6, 2014 11:28 am

    ‘If competitors or potential competitors cannot sustain equal or lower prices without losing money, they go out of business or choose not to enter the business. The predatory merchant then has fewer competitors or is even a de facto monopoly.’

    If they cannot prevent the dumping of competitors products, then they should at least provide financial assistance to help those who are affected by it.

    I heard Barnaby Joyce talking about assistance for farmers, as they cannot control the weather that causes their losses. Well, SPC cannot control the dumping either, or the value of the Aussie dollar. And if the Government cannot control those factors either, than they should offer assistance.

    It worked for Holdens, and would have continued to if it had been offered. The same could be said of SPC

    My big question is, why did Tony Abbott choose to lie about the cause of the problem, instead of tackling it?

  87. egg permalink
    February 6, 2014 11:32 am

    ‘…as they cannot control the weather that causes their losses.’

    For christ’s sake its an act of dog.

  88. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 6, 2014 11:43 am

    Well, SPC cannot control the dumping either, or the value of the Aussie dollar.

    So…on that basis who wouldn’t be entitled to a handout?

  89. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 6, 2014 11:47 am

    on that basis who wouldn’t be entitled to a handout?

    How much coal is dumped here?

  90. Walrus permalink
    February 6, 2014 11:48 am

    Just on competition perse I mentioned back in early January that I was about to go to Costco for the first time to do a very very big grocery shop.

    Well we rocked upto the Casula outlet (we were visiting friends in that area Palm Beach being the extreme North of Sydney and Casula being pretty much the extreme South West) and managed to spend $956. (Yes Nine Hundred and Fifty Six Dollars). Considering how far the drive is we had to make it worthwhile.

    Since then we have only ventured into Woolworths twice. Frankly I was staggered by how cheap Costco was i.e. Gillette double razor blades with lube strip pack of 52 cost $26, rice of all varieties half price per kilo, cleaning stuff one third of the price, soft drinks like Coke 30 can packs for $15.

    It was frankly unbelieveable .

    Now I’m not advocating everyone should spend what we did but my Dog if you can share the cost of membership ($60) with one or two others and then buy in bulk it is really worth it.

    Then just do what we do and support your local butcher and fruitman and say goodbye to Woolworths or Coles.

  91. Walrus permalink
    February 6, 2014 11:49 am

    They even have a spectacle and hearing aid (TB ?) area

  92. February 6, 2014 11:55 am

    Lots of to a fro argie in here

    1. My mates son lives with us and does casual in a Cafe, he gets 3 or 4 hours here and there, on call as needed @ $25 an hour and works his clacker off for it, they make 4 time what they pay him off him

    2. There is an enormous amount of people working in cafe’s retail ect casually being paid cash without OH&S, conditions, breaks ect… by the same fucktards that are calling for reductions in wages, most of whom are members of the Fiberal Zombie nation tight ass posse of penultimate greed.

    2. If you can’t afford minimum wage, get the fuck out of business, you don’t know what you are doing

    3.. Is this the answer the conservatives come up with? We can’t employ because our business model and management practices are inept so we need to be regressive about wages that have served other business that are viable and well run quite well.

  93. TB Queensland permalink
    February 6, 2014 11:55 am

    They even have a spectacle and hearing aid (TB ?) area

    Don’t push yer luck, sunshine…

  94. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 6, 2014 12:01 pm

    Is this the answer the conservatives come up with? We can’t employ because our business model and management practices are inept so we need to be regressive about wages that have served other business that are viable and well run quite well.

    And their wish of for the true American model

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/10/1141724/-Walmart-fuels-inequality-epidemic-taking-advantage-of-our-safety-net#

  95. Walrus permalink
    February 6, 2014 12:01 pm

    “………There is an enormous amount of people working in cafe’s retail ect casually being paid cash without OH&S, conditions, breaks ect… by the same fucktards that are calling for reductions in wages, most of whom are members of the Fiberal Zombie nation tight ass posse of penultimate greed…………..”

    Yeah………..especially in high tourism areas like Circular Quay…………and I thought Eddie Obeid was ALP

    Must be mistaken ………..ROFLMAO

  96. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 6, 2014 12:06 pm

    Eddie Obeid , a fine example of the struggling family owners of Cafes

  97. February 6, 2014 12:15 pm

    As Always Walrus, you have no fucking idea what you are talking about and resort to the terragraph version ..ask how many cafe owners around the key or martin place vote labor genius… 🙄

  98. Walrus permalink
    February 6, 2014 1:24 pm

    Mmmmmm……………!

    Where exactly is the “key” ?

    I’ve had enquiries on the street from Japanese tourists about directions to the “kwee” or sometimes the “kway” but never heard a local refer to it as the “key”

    You are a complete numbskull

    ROFLMAO

  99. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 6, 2014 1:27 pm

    Speaking of numbskulls

  100. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 6, 2014 2:37 pm
  101. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 6, 2014 3:21 pm

    Yes and just like with refugees and children in detention the usual suspects now come out. I wonder if they were protesting when manufacturing left Australia from 1983-1996 and from 2007-2013??

  102. Walrus permalink
    February 6, 2014 3:21 pm

    Besides the occasional can of tomatoes who the fuck still eats canned fruit anyway ?

    “Let he amongst you without spin cast the first stone fruit…………”

    eh…………….or something like that

  103. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 6, 2014 3:43 pm

    I wonder if they were protesting when manufacturing left Australia from 1983-1996 and from 2007-2013??

    why would they have been protesting hen the Government were doing everything they could to keep jobs in the wake of the GFC?

    The anger is because these jobs could be saved. This Government has refused to even try

  104. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 6, 2014 3:47 pm

    Abbott is now proposing something which might actually create jobs.

  105. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 6, 2014 3:59 pm

    Abbott is now proposing something which might actually create jobs.

    He’d want to create a lot to compensate for those he would be destroying

    http://www.smh.com.au/environment/energy-smart/solar-pv-jobs-to-crash-if-renewable-energy-target-is-scrapped-report-finds-20140129-31m9x.html

  106. February 6, 2014 4:01 pm

    ””””””””””’Italian tomatoes were being dumped in Australia through EU export restitution payments and in essence they were breaking international law.””””””’
    .
    ””””Italian tomatoes were being dumped in Australia””””’

    Yes Dumpty, other tomatoes too, epania for sure, maybe portugal

    .
    ”””through EU export restitution payments””’

    l don`t know about that, but the NZ-back-door is wide-open.

    And Legal.

  107. February 6, 2014 4:03 pm

    What he’s goint to set himself on fire? before doing a jonestown in the party room? or maybe hold a dissolution like he promised…

  108. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 6, 2014 4:06 pm

    why would they have been protesting hen the Government were doing everything they could to keep jobs in the wake of the GFC?

    I think a large chunk of our manufacturing left from 1983-1996. Hawke/keating made the decision with Coalition support to drop the tariffs protecting our industry.

    I think rather than blind tribal support which is all you show we need some other answers other than to throw truckloads of cash at every problem we face.

    How many millions or billions of dollars did the Australian govt give Ford?? And they still left.

  109. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 6, 2014 4:12 pm

    “He’d want to create a lot to compensate for those he would be destroying”

    Jobs that only exist because of subsidies are just make-work schemes. Why is the left so big on government funded unicorn farming?

  110. egg permalink
    February 6, 2014 4:13 pm

    ‘He’d want to create a lot to compensate for those he would be destroying’

    He will, dog willing.

  111. Walrus permalink
    February 6, 2014 4:21 pm

    ‘He’d want to create a lot to compensate for those he would be destroying’

    Its easy guys.

    Dont you recall all those tens of thousands of Green jobs created by Julia in the La Trobe Valley as a consequence of shutting down all those filthy brown coal power stations.

    FMD………………..Melbourne’s Centrelink’s must be almost deserted after the explosion of employment opportunities in the La Trobe

  112. February 6, 2014 4:21 pm

    BENT OVER AND BLUBBERING,

    `unpaid interns` are common enough to have their `own` tag or category on job-sites,

    years-ago, intern was `unpaid`, while trainee and apprentice `was` paid,

    it seems some interns are now paid, but not all,

    google `unpaid intern` blubbers, and you will find heaps.

    Digital Assistant – Intern

    Are you currently studying or just completed a degree in Digital media or Web Production? Do you consider yourself a team oriented, driven, reliable and hard working?

    If so, we currently have a fantastic opportunity for an unpaid intern to join Sydney’s number one hospitality group as a Digital Assistant! Reporting directly to the Digital Media Manager, you will assist the marketing team in the admin and upkeep of Merivale websites & social media sites for a min of 3 days per week for approximately 3 months. You will work with some of our brands including Pacha!

    Your key duties and responsibilities will include:

    – Work across a wide range of web, mobile, email and social media projects, resizing images.

    – Assist with Website updates, Social Media updates, Email creation, website design.

    – Competitor research

    Requirements

    – Studying towards or recent completion of a degree in digital media/web production, or another relevant degree.

    – Interested in digital marketing, technology, social media, and producing digital media.

    Opportunities to be a part of a market leader doesn’t come up too often and is too good not to pass up, especially if you’re looking at kick starting your career!
    http://www.seek.com.au/job/25831671

  113. February 6, 2014 4:24 pm

    I SAY AGAIN BLUBBERS,

    ”””””””””””””””””’If so, we currently have a fantastic opportunity for an unpaid intern to join Sydney’s””””””’

  114. Walrus permalink
    February 6, 2014 4:24 pm

    Solar Power Jobs to go you say………………

    Well thank fucking Deity for that.

    Yet more jobs subsidised by either government subsidy or mandated consumer price inflation or both

  115. Walrus permalink
    February 6, 2014 4:35 pm

    Well it took you a while 245AM Reportland.

    Since your hero Julia drafted the Fair Work Act and it has not yet changed then here you go………

    http://www.fairwork.gov.au/factsheets/fwo-fact-sheet-internships-vocational-placements-unpaid-work.pdf

    So Merivale’s could be acting illegally.

    But we were not discussing acts of illegality in the first place as I recall. But you are so far behind on this thread we have all moved on. Except for you.

    How’s your remedial reading class by the way. Are you upto 6am this morning on this thread yet ?

    We were discussing people performing specific tasks. There will always be acts of illegality going on somewhere in plenty of workplaces. Just wander down to your nearest building site and ask the CFMEU organiser.

    He’s the one in the black T-shirt riding a Harley

  116. February 6, 2014 4:40 pm

    ”””””””””””””””””The commission found that 56% of tomatoes imported from Italy had been dumped on Australia and two of the major exporters, I.M.C.A and Lodato, had been selling them for about 26% below their value.
    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/feb/05/spc-ardmona-hurt-dumping-cheap-italian-tomatoes-commission
    ”””””””””””””””””””
    Yay for free-trade dumping, which `our` teabags always promote, and argue against those that have pointed the `free-trade-dumping` problem. Yes Blubbers, Yes Yomm, Yes Kneel, Yes Dumpty, what fine intellects you babbling primates possess.

  117. February 6, 2014 4:52 pm

    ”””Where’s that link to the interns not being paid””””””’
    IT`S YOUR REQUEST BLUBBERS,

    *************** ***********************
    I SAY AGAIN BLUBBERS,

    ”””””””””””””””””’If so, we currently have a fantastic opportunity for an unpaid intern to join Sydney’s””””””’
    ****************************************

    ”””Well it took you a while 245AM Reportland.”””

    ””Since your hero Julia drafted the Fair Work Act””
    IRRELEVANT NONSENSE TO TOPIC

  118. February 6, 2014 5:01 pm

    blubbering teabags don`t seem to be bright enough to shove `unpaid-intern` into google and see what results google coughs up, but prefers to remove all doubt of his stupidity, and immediately call `bullshit` on the teabag that spends lots of time on the job-sites, but this is okay, as the job-seeking teabag is always happy to help his blubbering friend showcase his ignorance

  119. Walrus permalink
    February 6, 2014 5:12 pm

    “Yay for free-trade dumping, which `our` teabags always promote,…. Yes Blubbers, …………… what fine intellects you babbling primates possess.”

    – As Posted by “245AMIntellectualWasteland”

    “…….if the goods are being dumped by a Country overproducing, lets say tomatoes, then that is an example of overproduction in that Country which is not being an economic allocation of limited resources since we then have 2 countries producing too many tomatoes or 1 country being put of of efficient production because of temporary inefficiency (producing a surplus).”

    -As Posted by “Blubbering Walrus” 10:09am

    Therefore……….245AMIntellectualWasteland……. your reading classes have got you to 6am sofar but I suppose reading is one thing but in the light of the above posting by moi exactly when do your comprehension classes begin ?

  120. Walrus permalink
    February 6, 2014 5:21 pm

    245AMIntellectualWasteland………..Merivale’s are possibly acting illegally which was outside the subject of this Thread.

    If they are not (and I think they are acting illegally) what’s the problem given the FWA guidelines are pretty much about “observation” only and vocational training.

    Traine solicitors do observational training in the final stages of law school.

    They dont work as such. Which therefore means they are not productive to the employer. So why should the employer pay them.

    You were implying that working for free was rife. Its not and one advert does not prove that it is.

  121. February 6, 2014 5:27 pm

    ”””””With significant recent growth in the Internships area, we are now seeking an additional Internship Consultant to join our growing Internships Team.
    http://www.seek.com.au/job/25850346
    ””””””””””’

    Blubbers, the Internship Consultant is being paid,
    but it doesn`t say whether the actual `interns` will be paid.

    Or will they just receive valuable `experience` to pay their bills with,

    (photo-journos are receiving valuable `exposure` to pay their bills)

  122. Walrus permalink
    February 6, 2014 5:30 pm

    Blubbering Teabag your jump from a restaurant employee who is supposedly an unpaid intern to an intern doing a University Course is a bit of a stretch even by your standards

  123. Walrus permalink
    February 6, 2014 5:33 pm

    “………..but it doesn`t say whether the actual `interns` will be paid. ”

    I guarantee they wont be because in an accounting or law office they would be next to fucking useless except as doorstops.

    So what…………..why should they get paid.

    Yesterday we were talking about productive people in restaurants.

    Your problem is that your brain has exploded and now you are all arse about

  124. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 6, 2014 5:37 pm

    Blubbering Teabag” seems to have become unhinged.

  125. February 6, 2014 5:45 pm

    ””’You were implying that working for free was rife.””””
    not `rife` *just common enough for job-sites ie-seek to give them a site-tag or site-category,
    .
    ””””””Merivale’s are possibly acting illegally”””””

    l made no claim either way on `legality`,
    just used as example of `inter-unpaid`, nothing more

  126. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 6, 2014 5:51 pm

    I had a look at the SPC EBA the other day. It isn’t remarkably generous in conditions, the wages may be a little on the high side for a lower cost regional industry.

    The problem with the agreement is its length and the relative complexity of the processes.

    I’ve no doubt it provides the opportunity for a significant amount of time for delegates to spend off the job, meeting management to talk about compliance with the range of prescribed processes, and everyone knows that dispute meetings are far more fun for delegates than operating a fruit process line.

    The agreement appears typical of the type that overlays terms and conditions with complicated process, leading to plenty of union grievances that don’t actually relate to an outcome.

  127. February 6, 2014 5:52 pm

    ””””””’your jump from a restaurant employee who is supposedly an unpaid intern to an intern doing a University Course is a bit of a stretch””””’

    WRONG.
    **************************

    ”””’I only ask since plenty of University graduates”””

    now work for 6 or 12-months `trial` as unpaid-intern.

  128. February 6, 2014 5:55 pm

    ””””I guarantee they wont be because in an accounting or law office they would be next to fucking useless except as doorstops.

    So what…………..why should they get paid.””””

    and this proves me wrong.? how.?

    remember this.?

    ”””’I only ask since plenty of University graduates”””

    now work for 6 or 12-months `trial` as unpaid-intern.

    weren`t you calling bullshit on this blubbers.?

  129. Walrus permalink
    February 6, 2014 5:58 pm

    “Blubbering Teabag” seems to have become even more unhinged.”

    Fixed that for you ToM

  130. Walrus permalink
    February 6, 2014 6:04 pm

    “…………..and this proves me wrong.? how.?”

    Because the discussion was about restaurants and cafes you Numbskull.

    Where are the restaurant intern jobs to be found on Seek by the way ?

    And I didn’t accuse you of saying Merivales were doing something illegal. That was me.

    But I can understand you having a “persecution complex” with your bizarre thoughts, weird tangents and plague proportion numbskullian thoughts.

  131. February 6, 2014 6:16 pm

    ”””””””restaurant intern jobs”””””

    Never claimed that blubbers. Just said `interns unpaid`, no more, no less.

    Perhaps you read the `exact` words l actually claim, and not the extroplated bullshit you`re coming up with.

  132. February 6, 2014 6:38 pm

    Yay for free-trade dumping, which `our` teabags always promote,
    Yes Blubbers, what fine intellects you babbling primates possess.

    ”””””””””””if the goods are being dumped by a Country overproducing, lets say tomatoes, then that is an example of overproduction in that Country which is not being an economic allocation of limited resources since we then have 2 countries producing too many tomatoes or 1 country being put of of efficient production because of temporary inefficiency (producing a surplus).””””””””””’

    Long story short, Italy produces more tomatoes than Italy needs, so Italy dumps their excess tomatoes in Aust. below cost, fcuking simple huh.?

    Then there is Spain, another large producer, that also dumps tomatoes in Aust. Spain gets it production advantage from ultra-cheap african illegal-immigrants slave-labor.

    Keep Blubbering.

    North and South America has also dumped tomatoes in Aust. over the years, from Chile to Mexico to California. And probably everywhere in between.

    #Yay.Free.Trade

  133. February 6, 2014 6:48 pm

    http://www.ehow.com/how_8355214_report-unpaid-internship.html

    there is no such thing as `unpaid interns` huh.?

  134. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 6, 2014 7:01 pm

    Jobs that only exist because of subsidies are just make-work schemes.

    Does that mean that jobs only exist in mining because of the subsidies?

  135. February 6, 2014 7:26 pm

    Wait till the Fiberal Fops have all the DSP pensioners and Uni students in the fields slavin for Woolies and coles , mining the reef for lime. pulping world heritage old growth forests or in Gina’s uranium mines in a Economic Exclusion zone…

  136. egg permalink
    February 6, 2014 7:50 pm

    Before the election last year.

    ‘GINA Rinehart has welcomed Kevin Rudd’s promise to establish a special economic zone in the Northern Territory, declaring she is “ecstatic” that both major parties have now embraced her push for lower taxation and less regulation in the nation’s north.’

    Not sure if its still Labor policy.

  137. February 6, 2014 7:58 pm

    What Egg? what tripe all factions of the caucus are diametrically opposed to the idea and has never been Labor policy.
    The only idea Gina’s fucking gigantic hole has ever has was a hangover from her father ( the biggest corporate criminal in Australia’s history) is ANDEV Langs idea to succeed from Australia and make his own empire of corporate slaves…

  138. egg permalink
    February 6, 2014 8:09 pm

    Rudd was telling porkies, Gina must have been very disappointed.

  139. Tony permalink
    February 6, 2014 8:30 pm

    “What is prudence in the conduct of every private family, can scarce be folly in that of a great Kingdom. If a foreign country can supply us with a commodity cheaper than we ourselves can make it, better buy it of them with some part of the produce of our own industry, employed in a way in which we have some advantage. The general industry of the country … will not thereby be diminished … but only left to find out the way in which it can be employed to the greatest advantage.” ~ Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations, 1776.

  140. February 6, 2014 8:51 pm

    Links? Substantiate?….bet its all from the Andev site run by …wait for it….Tim Wilson

  141. Walrus permalink
    February 6, 2014 10:19 pm

    “Wait till the Fiberal Fops have all the DSP pensioners and Uni students in the fields slavin for Woolies and coles …………….”

    I truly hope so

  142. February 6, 2014 11:07 pm

    ”””””””””foreign country can supply us with a commodity cheaper than we ourselves can make it, better buy it of them with some part of the produce of our own industry””””””

    1776.?

    yeah, that`s teh-theory scales`osy,

    tho a glorified dirt delivery service, with no value-ad, employing 1.3% of workforce,

    verses, Asia, that is doing all the value-adding,

    Adams didn`t seem to include that bit, or a solution for the 98.7% that`s not delivering dirt.

  143. February 6, 2014 11:15 pm

    Egg? that’s labor policy is it? Mate that’s about as scientific as your Global warming shrill. How about we power a few citys from all the shit in Waltossers head instead?

  144. February 6, 2014 11:22 pm

    Wait till all these third world manufacturing countries have to stop paying Oliver twist wages and middle class increases as they bloat drunk on consumerism…. All these fucking wingers complaining about 19th century manufacturing models in the 21st century with the idea the answer is regression….Maybe walrus and kneel could run the country on a Jam tin,a hessian bag and copious amounts of verbal effluent.

  145. February 6, 2014 11:41 pm

    The main trouble is Canberra is largely full of fcukwits,

    Mr-Rabbit told Coke to fcuk-off and stop bludging,
    pay for your own `upgrades` with your half-billion profit,
    (and `looked` strong)
    then arse-fcuks himself by trying to `pin` workers/wages as problem,
    when Coke/spc have said its `free-trade`dumping that is the problem,
    (now looks like total fcukwit)
    .
    on the other side,
    the braindead shortman can only be the `anti-rabbit`,
    and oppose both points,
    shortman says not workers/wages,
    (looks smart),
    then says pay the extortion dollars to Coke/spc,
    (now looks like groveling softcock)
    .
    #Fcuk.l.Hate.Em.Both

  146. February 6, 2014 11:57 pm

    One thing l have noticed is our mindless chanting teabags have failed spectacularly at, is, our teabags, that are always concerned for the richest corporations, have failed to acknowledge the dismal performance of Mr-Rabbit injecting the worker/wage non-problem onto Coke/spc, a non-problem that Coke/spc don`t need, or want.

  147. February 7, 2014 12:01 am

    Amen to that Teabag…No depth of talent left on ant side..
    All this imported fuckwittery from US no Vaseline rogerd teabaggers….

    all the decent talent of the ALP jumped ship, the fiberal party is a low IQ incompetent fucktard fest.

    Great visionaries of modern Liberal legacy,

    now there’s a one page single sided 36 point font leaflet you wouldn’t wipe your ass on with 2 words on it No and Sell. Their great treasurer sold everything that wasn’t nailed down, gave out middle welfare in what can only be described as a bribeathon of waist, put through 1/100th of the legislative reform that PJK did,, told everyone to invest in shares just before the market shit tanked and they call him a hero…low standard bullshitting tools.

  148. egg permalink
    February 7, 2014 7:26 am

    The literary standard around here seems to be in free fall.

  149. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 7:38 am

    The problem with the agreement is its length and the relative complexity of the processes.

    welcome to dealing with peoples lives Tom. Then again, how much detail do you think is needed in order to protect both worker and company? I haven’t seen the document, so not sure how large it is, are you able to relay its size, or give a link for it? There has been much talk about wet pay, hot weather clauses where employees are able to get a drink, and the fact that the employees get RDO’s. I take it that your issue now is not that they get these (not unreasonable) clauses, but more that they are detailed in a document?

    It is also interesting to reflect on the fact that reb has a post up with this specific title. After all the lies Tony Abbott has already made to date, this has to be the most blatant, and possibly the most damaging.

    BEFORE ELECTION

    “We leave the wage-fixing system exactly as it is and penalty rates will be a matter for the Fair Work Commission tomorrow as they are today.”

    AFTER ELECTION

    The Abbott Government has asked a major review of workplace awards to assess whether minimum terms and conditions, including penalty rates, are still relevant.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-04/coalition-questions-relevance-of-modern-awards/5238298

    Workchoices, dead, buried, cremated. Welcome to The Walking Dead?

  150. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 7:40 am

    The literary standard around here seems to be in free fall.

    Yet you continue to post. reb obviously isn’t too worried about it then

  151. egg permalink
    February 7, 2014 7:59 am

    lol jj

    Fairfax reckons Sharman Stone makes a good Opposition leader.

  152. Meta permalink
    February 7, 2014 8:01 am

    (It’s very simple; simplify awards for simple people, and they don’t know what they’re missing out on. Perhaps.)

  153. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 8:05 am

    Fairfax reckons Sharman Stone makes a good Opposition leader.

    All of our media do. It was interesting, as Bill Shorten had been saying this the whole day before but it only gets reported when a Liberal says it.

    Really, that isn’t Shortens, or Labors fault. It is the fault of a media who still appear to be running a protection racket for the Liberals.

  154. Meta permalink
    February 7, 2014 8:05 am

    (Mind you, I learnt everything I know about modern IR and modern corporate management from House of Lies; including what ‘going surfing’ in consultant-speak means.)

  155. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 8:06 am

    It’s very simple; simplify awards for simple people

    Wasn’t that tried before? What was that called? Someone perhaps could help me with the title of that policy?

  156. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 8:13 am

    Mind you, I learnt everything I know about modern IR and modern corporate management from House of Lies

    Some prefer The Hobbit

    http://www.wired.com/underwire/2013/01/hobbit-contract-legal-analysis/

  157. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 8:14 am

    Jobs that only exist because of subsidies are just make-work schemes.

    Further to that

    These fossil fuel subsidies don’t just pay companies to pollute our air, water and atmosphere. They also distort our markets by making fossil fuels, like diesel and gas, artificially cheap. Special tax treatment for big oil, gas and coal projects allows fossil fuel companies to rapidly depreciate their assets, like drilling rigs. This means they get away with paying taxes that other companies are forced to.

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/southern-crossroads/2014/feb/02/fossil-fuel-subsidies-tony-abbott-spc-ardmona-corporate-welfare?CMP=twt_fd

    It appears that fossil fuel subsidies are all that is keeping the fossil fuel industry going? If we accept your statement at face value that is.

  158. TB Queensland permalink
    February 7, 2014 9:20 am

    M …
    ( … including what ‘going surfing’ in consultant-speak means.)

    Chuckle … very subtle … 😆

  159. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 9:26 am

    very subtle

    Surfing is so much more fun that reading contracts, no matter how voluminous they are. Looking forward to Toms answer for me, as he has already seen it.

  160. Walrus permalink
    February 7, 2014 9:28 am

    “It is the fault of a media who still appear to be running a protection racket for the Liberals.”

    Oh Yes…………..and I suppose its all the Medias fault that Shorten did a 30 second TV grab yesterday when campaigning in Griffith (Rudd’s old seat) that he did not know the ins or outs of Schapelle Corby’s jail sentence and had no opinion on it.

    Is he the only fucking person in Australia who does not know the “ins and outs” of her jail sentence and has no opinion one way or the other ?

    He came across as a complete fucking idiot.

    Which is just as well because he is one.

    Godluck with him next election Lefties………………. LOL

  161. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 9:41 am

    Shorten did a 30 second TV grab yesterday when campaigning in Griffith (Rudd’s old seat) that he did not know the ins or outs of Schapelle Corby’s jail sentence and had no opinion on it.

    He gets 30 seconds and they choose to play a section that he states he doesn’t know about. Why should he know about it? It’s a soap opera. Did they play anything about jobs or promises broken?

    Just for the record, I don’t know anything about it, except that she was found guilty and sentenced. I wouldn’t posit an opinion on national television as I don’t know the ‘ins and out’ either. I guess, since so many here have already found Slipper and Thomson and Gillard guilty of everything thrown at them, it is just as easy to have a determination in a court case run overseas when we don’t know all the details in that either?

  162. Walrus permalink
    February 7, 2014 9:42 am

    “They also distort our markets by making fossil fuels, like diesel and gas, artificially cheap. Special tax treatment for big oil, gas and coal projects allows fossil fuel companies to rapidly depreciate their assets, like drilling rigs. This means they get away with paying taxes that other companies are forced to.”

    ROFLMAO

    Clearly the Guardian journo who wrote that has no fucking idea how accelerated depreciation within the industry actually works. Any special tax treatments apply across the entire mining industry not just fossil fuel.

    But I’m not surprised to see you cut and paste it.

  163. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 9:44 am

    Any special tax treatments apply across the entire mining industry not just fossil fuel.

    So ALL mining jobs are only there because of subsidies?

  164. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 9:58 am

    But there is a more complete list of subsidies received

     Fuel tax credits scheme to the mining industry
     Statutory effective life caps (accelerated depreciation) to the oil and gas, and petroleum extraction industries, and to non-specified industries.
     Concessional rate of excise levied on aviation gasoline and aviation turbine fuel
     Energy Security Fund – payments and free permits to the most carbon intensive power stations
     Exploration and prospecting deduction

    http://environmentvictoria.org.au/newsite/sites/default/files/useruploads/MF%20and%20EV%202013%20polluter%20handouts%20assessment%20FINAL-4.pdf

    Good enough for some, but not for Holden, SPC ………… (this list will probably become quite extensive, but won’t include fossil fuels I’m willing to bet)

    And I would assume that the entitlements in those mining awards dwarf those received by Holden or SPC workers. Yet they are keeping their handouts?

  165. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 7, 2014 10:07 am

    “So ALL mining jobs are only there because of subsidies?”

    Accelerated depreciation is a subsidy only in the sense that anything less than a 100% tax rate is a subsidy.

    ABC funding is a real subsidy of a billion dollars a year for otherwise unemployable drongo leftist journos. Now that is a subsidy that should be terminated.

  166. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 10:13 am

    Accelerated depreciation is a subsidy only in the sense that anything less than a 100% tax rate is a subsidy.

    “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”

  167. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 7, 2014 10:24 am

    “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”

    That is the entire leftist project. Criticising Islam is racism, plant food is a pollutant and sustainability means whatever the loonies say it means this week.

  168. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 10:27 am

    That is the entire leftist project. Criticising Islam is racism, plant food is a pollutant and sustainability means whatever the loonies say it means this week.

    And a Carbon Price is a Carbon Tax, and a promise is what was meant to be said, not what was actually said

    The English Language is a hoot.

  169. Meta permalink
    February 7, 2014 10:31 am

    (I’d probably try to be a little more interested in plant evolutionary psychology; they’ve already poisoned the whole of the planet for almost every other living thing once or twice with O2; who knows what they’ll do with all the extra plant food, or extra not-pollutant O2. Just a thought.)

  170. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 7, 2014 10:34 am

    “And a Carbon Price is a Carbon Tax, and a promise is what was meant to be said, not what was actually said”

    You really have got that one arse up, you shark-jumping charlatan, you! Do you even know what a tax is? Unfortunately for you, the High Court has had many occasions to consider the issue. It is quite clear that the Carbon Tax is indeed a tax. People only call it a carbon price in order to break their promises. In this case the lie is so blatant it does not even provide plausible deniability.

  171. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 10:39 am

    It is quite clear that the Carbon Tax is indeed a tax.

    In the same way that claiming a depreciation is a subsidy. It is all money from my tax dollars handed back out by the Government

    “I will not introduce a Carbon Tax, but I will introduce a Carbon Price”

    And Humpty Dumpty complied.

  172. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 7, 2014 10:43 am

    You don’t know what a tax is, do you?

  173. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 7, 2014 10:44 am

    Otherwise you wouldn’t strut your ignorance so blatantly.

  174. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 10:55 am

    I do know that, when Gillard said there would be no Carbon Tax, in the same sentence she also stated that there would be a Price.

    You would have thought that that clarification would have cleared things up for humpty. Guess not.

  175. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 10:57 am

    And, when Tony Abbott stood with hand on heart and told us workchoices was dead, Buried, Cremated, and that he would leave penalty rates to the FWA, only to now find that he is deliberately telling the FWA to re-assess the penalty rates he clearly stated he would leave alone the night before the election.

  176. Walrus permalink
    February 7, 2014 11:05 am

    So now you have ventured into my areas LOL………….how amusing

     “Fuel tax credits scheme to the mining industry”

    Original scheme was introduced in 1957 to compensate farmers and mining companies (not not just oil, gas or coal) to reimburse for the excise on diesel levied to build and maintain PUBLIC roads. It recognized that farmers and miners run vehicles which are restricted to within the boundaries of their farm or mine site on roads constructed and maintained by them. Not the PUBLIC.

     “Statutory effective life caps (accelerated depreciation) to the oil and gas, and petroleum extraction industries, and to non-specified industries.”

    Clearly you don’t actually understand what this actually is otherwise you wouldn’t bother posting it. There is no gain in depreciation for the miner as such. It just allows the ATO to place a cap over how long a particular asset might pop up in a tax return. There is no 150% deduction capital deduction rate. It might mean an asset deemed by its owner to have an effective life of 10 years is deemed by the ATO to have an effective tax life of 8 years. Accountants refer to it as a timing difference and it also creates a situation where the company’s effective tax rate might appear in any year to be lets say 28% rather than 30%. But that effect then turns arse about in later years. But that never stops the Lunatic Left from claiming it as proof of tax avoidance.

     “Concessional rate of excise levied on aviation gasoline and aviation turbine fuel.”

    So what. That applies to many industries not just Mining. Are you also going to argue that the excise on wine should be equal to that of beer and spirits too ?

     “Energy Security Fund – payments and free permits to the most carbon intensive power stations”

    Power generation is not mining. Otherwise lets talk about solar and wind power subsidies

     “Exploration and prospecting deduction”

    You are off your damn tree if you are seriously proposing that costs of prospecting and exploration for miners should not be allowable as a tax deduction. Do you really think that everytime a drill hole is sunk on this land mas \that gold, oil, gas or copper or coal or iron ore is found.If you really want to shut down every single mining company in this country then that stupid idea will really work. That is so fucking dumb it does not bear thinking about.

  177. Walrus permalink
    February 7, 2014 11:07 am

    Fuck me dead………………

    Even Kevin Rudd was honest enough to refer to it as the Carbon Tax

  178. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 11:11 am

    Why is one company’s government subsidy a grant while another’s is co-investment?

    Perhaps humpty’s can answer this?

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-07/cassidy-getting-the-message-straight-on-industry-policy/5244518

    Do you really think that everytime a drill hole is sunk on this land mas \that gold, oil, gas or copper or coal or iron ore is found

    Do you really think that every time a can of fruit is manufactured, it is sold in a shop?

    Power generation is not mining. Otherwise lets talk about solar and wind power subsidies

    welcome back to what we were talking about. Subsidies for wind and power, and subsidies for fossil fuels.

    So what. That applies to many industries not just Mining.

    So, many industries, not just Mining.are only there because of subsidies?”

    But that never stops the Lunatic Left from claiming it as proof of tax avoidance.

    I didn’t claim it was tax avoidance.

  179. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 11:15 am

    Even Kevin Rudd was honest

    All those journos he was leaking to might disagree

  180. Walrus permalink
    February 7, 2014 11:32 am

    “All those journos he was leaking to might disagree”

    And that’s pretty typical of most of your comments. Just throw away 14 year old school kid like lines (“Do you really think that every time a can of fruit is manufactured, it is sold in a shop?”) or quoting back part of another bloggers post so its totally out of context.

    So that my comment of this………….

    “Even Kevin Rudd was honest enough to refer to it as the Carbon Tax”

    responding to your “Price” versus “Tax” argument is closed down by taking it to another subject level with this

    “Even Kevin Rudd was honest”

    If you dont wish to blog in good faith then so be it. However you will quickly find that over time fewer and fewer of us will bother with you.

  181. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 7, 2014 11:36 am

    If it was me i would give SPC the $25M and then say that was it. And when of you think of the not millions nor hundreds of millions but actually billions of dollars taxpayers have given Ford, Holden, Toyota what is $25M?? And then we have the billions spent by Rudd on pink batts and school assembly halls. What a waste.

    However from Cassidy’s link

    To be fair, if Ardmona was allowing its employees to cash out sick leave – and if it was paying out two years pay in redundancies – then much of the sympathy for the workforce would vanish. But according to the company, those arrangements ended in 2012.

    Apparently that is true for new workers. But the old workers are on the old agreement which means they get two years in severence pay. I am old enough to remember when you got one months notice and that was it. No wonder they cannot make a profit if they are paying two years salary for each redundancy.

  182. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 7, 2014 11:37 am

    “I do know that, when Gillard said there would be no Carbon Tax, in the same sentence she also stated that there would be a Price.”

    You may “know” that in the way that lefties actually “know” anything at all in their parallel universe.

    You are probably relying on a discredited leftist source like Kerry-Anne Walsh’s half-arsed hagiography of Gillard. The trouble is that if you actually go to the source video you will see something quite different:

    There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead. What we will do is we will tackle the challenge of climate change. We’ve invested record amounts in solar and renewable energies. Now I want to build the transmission lines that will bring that clean, green energy into the national electricity grid. I also want to make sure we have no more dirty coal-fired power stations. I want to make sure we’re driving greener cars and working from greener buildings. I will be delivering those things, and leading our national debate to reach a consensus about putting a cap on carbon pollution.

    Hint: the video is what she actually said. Your statement is straight out of leftist la-la land.

    Of course there was no national debate and no consensus reached just a dodgy back-room deal with the Greens.

  183. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 11:44 am

    responding to your “Price” versus “Tax” argument is closed down by taking it to another subject level with this

    So, all of a sudden you are interested in “contect”

    I’m not even arguing that the Carbon Price is not a tax. That is irrelevant. What I am saying is that a defined word has many meanings, and a complete sentence, which you are so uptight about now, can more fully describe that.

    So, when someone says that they will not be implementing a certian tax, but will implement a certain price instead, it is pretty hypocritical to turn around and say after the event that a price can in fact be classified a tax, and therefore it was a lie.This is only true if you ignore the clarification which shows that there were specific things being referred to.

    In the same way, a “subsidy” can be any form of Government largesse.But, it appears that now, a Subsidy is only a direct handout from the Government. My argument is the Government provides many different forms of subsidies, many in the way of tax concessions etc. Either way, they are subsidies, and, in this case, since there has been no specification, in this “Age of Entitlement”, a subsidy can mean anything. And, as you have agreed, almost every enterprise in the country is a beneficiary of them in one form or another.

  184. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 11:48 am

    Hint: the video is what she actually said. Your statement is straight out of leftist la-la land.

    bloody lefties

    <i."I don't rule out the possibility of legislating a Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme, a market-based mechanism," she said of the next parliament. "I rule out a carbon tax."

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/julia-gillards-carbon-price-promise/story-fn59niix-1225907522983

    Rupert will not be happy with that description of his flagship

  185. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 11:51 am

    Even in your link she declares it.

    and leading our national debate to reach a consensus about putting a cap on carbon pollution.

    In Tony Abbots declaration, winning an election is a consensus.

  186. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 11:54 am

    But this is not about a carbon tax lie or not, this is about workers being abandoned by a Government who is picking a choosing what jobs to save and what not without any clear or relevant reasoning, and his relaunching of a re-badged workchoice drive

    Why not stick with defending the indefensible there?

  187. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:05 pm

    No you are completely and utterly wrong. The interview where she said that “There will be no Carbon Tax under a government I lead.” Is quoted above. You said: “in the same sentence she also stated that there would be a Price.” Wrong.

    Now you bring up another interview. Both in the Australian interview and previously Gillard left open the possibility of a market-based scheme after a period of consultation and after a consensus was reached, to take effect after the 2013 election. There was neither consultation nor consensus. There was a backroom deal with the Greens and we got a Carbon Tax which took effect before the 2013 election.

    Gillard pissed in our faces by bringing in a Carbon Tax when she said she would not. Further, the tax was brought in without consultation, without consensus and much earlier than she promised.

  188. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:08 pm

    News Corp second-quarter profit slides 4 per cent as newspaper advertising revenue declines:
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-07/newscorp-profit-slides/5244956

    …The results show the Fox cable television operation was the only unit with growth in operating earnings.

    Other units, including broadcast television, satellite and film, show profit declines…

    Anyone left wondering why the PM of the country openly attacks our ABC and wants it defunded? Why the murdochracy will not print any criticism against the LNP?

  189. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:09 pm

    “Why not stick with defending the indefensible there?”

    You seem to have dominated that field of endeavour so far. In fact I haven’t commented on whether Abbott is bringing back Workchoices or what the consequences might be because I have no idea what he is going to do. Commenting on things you have no idea about seems to be a specialty with you.

  190. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:11 pm

    the tax was brought in without consultation, without consensus and much earlier than she promised.

    the price was brought in without consultation, without consensus and much earlier than she promised.

    Fixed it for you

  191. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:11 pm

    “Anyone left wondering why the PM of the country openly attacks our ABC and wants it defunded?”

    Not me. He needs to stop the misappropriation of public funds by a cabal of pig-ignorant leftists.

  192. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:12 pm

    “Fixed it for you”

    How can you “fix” it? You don’t even know what a tax is!

  193. Walrus permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:14 pm

    “Anyone left wondering why the PM of the country openly attacks our ABC and wants it defunded?”

    Where did he say he wants it “defunded” ?

    And if he did who gives a flying rats ?

    After all it IS just another government department subject to the same austerity as other departments.

    Why should you be so precious about it being cutback ?

  194. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:15 pm

    I have no idea what he is going to do.

    No, we were commenting on what he has done

    What he has done is killed off SPC, and his reasoning for it was exposed as a lie.

    We were commenting on how prior to the election he promised that “We leave the wage-fixing system exactly as it is and penalty rates will be a matter for the Fair Work Commission tomorrow as they are today.” and after the election he is advising them to remove those conditions, rather than leaving it as a matter for them.

    We were commenting on why large swathes of industries get subsidies in one form or another, while others don’t

  195. Walrus permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:15 pm

    “Commenting on things you have no idea about seems to be a specialty with you”

    Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm………………!

    Funny………………….I noticed that as well

  196. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:17 pm

    You don’t even know what a tax is!

    and you don’t appear to know what a clarification is.

  197. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:17 pm

    I noticed that as well

    yet you failed to notice my points.

  198. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:18 pm

    And if he did who gives a flying rats ?

    Those who heard him say prior to the election that he would not change their funding.

  199. February 7, 2014 12:20 pm

    Why not bring up the war? We got Labor, Rudd, Gillard, Unions, Leftist, Carbon Tax , Asylum seekers., greens , reds, over paid workers, ….. anything but shitheads that couldn’t manage a chook raffle much less a business.

    Its absolutely hilarious how all these CEO’s that attack work practices, tank the share price blaming everything but their stupidity, then get a bonus for such idiocy. Maybe they should get that poison Irish dwarf to run SPC ?

    I’m gonna start producing vacillated rubber dolls of Bonnie Howard in phony tony speedo’s with a special George Pell quick access panel made in china

    …sell a treat with you right wing worshipers of the cult of bullshit blame 🙄

    This is scary..Kneel is right (well derrrr)
    Japan is a major export partner? Who eats canned food? Tell ya who…people who have their food supply poisoned by the worst nuclear accident in human history. If this government cant see that if they pay Coke 25 mill, they will invest to expand, not go offshore, save jobs to create wealth and tax.

  200. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:24 pm

    “and you don’t appear to know what a clarification is”

    Apparently a clarification is what you say when you are utterly and obviously wrong but don’t have the guts to admit it. You should try just admitting it when you get stuff wrong. It doesn’t hurt. Every one screws up sometime. It might even be your first step back from lefty la-la land to reality.

  201. TB Queensland permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:25 pm

    LOL! People in glass houses …

  202. egg permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:28 pm

    ‘Gillard pissed in our faces by bringing in a Carbon Tax when she said she would not.’

    Hear Hear !

  203. TB Queensland permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:31 pm

    This is the level of understanding by a senior (supposedly) business commentator on the SPC Agreement … I rerad it yeterday but its as silly and incompetent now as it was then …

    Instead of simply managing, SPC managers under the agreement are given tasks like setting the direction and strategies for the business; planning and organising resources to meet business goals; providing leadership; establishing and using business performance monitoring systems; coaching and supporting teams and building “partnership” between the company and employees.

    So once the agreement limits the power of manager it then explains that power is to be shared with a ”council” which has representatives from both management and workers, and unions can attend.

    The job of the “council”, like the managers, is prescribed. The council is to:
    •Be the basis of improved communication between management and employees.
    •Facilitate the resolution of disputes.
    •Be consensual in its approach.
    •Be the sounding board for significant change.
    •Be a leader in the development of teams by acting as a team.

    The agreement sets out in incredible detail the various types of work in the plant and has detailed prescriptions for each type of work, including payments, and rostering. If managers do not follow the prescriptions it can go to Fair Work Australia.

    If an employee requires dismissal the manager will almost need a QC to work a way through the complex agreement.

    I might remind you that this is an agreement BETWEEN management and the employee representatives their union … and not a one sided document as many seem to think …

  204. TB Queensland permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:33 pm

    last three sentences are mine …

  205. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:35 pm

    If an employee requires dismissal the manager will almost need a QC to work a way through the complex agreement.

    Or anyone with the ability to read.

    Splatterbottoms need not apply.

  206. Walrus permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:43 pm

    Here is the SPC Agreement, bright can allowance and all………

    http://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/agreements/fwa/AE899535.pdf

  207. February 7, 2014 12:45 pm

    It seems obvious to me, TB, that most of those moaning about the specifics of enterprise bargaining agreements are not working under one; likely have never been involved in a bargaining period either.

    They are trying to sell the story that EBA’s are just a list of extortions from the employee collective forced upon management. I can assure them that reality is a little different to that. After negotiations & agreed terms, the new agreement is voted upon by those who will be subject(ed) to it. Neither side is forced (beyond compulsion to behave legally) & if no resolution is achieved then the status quo remains.
    I have been involved in a few where HR management plays divide & conquer, by playing off groups of employees with conflicting self interests against each other, to have the numerically larger group ostensibly vote against their co-workers interests.
    The key point is, however, that the Company & its Employees reach mutual agreement .

  208. February 7, 2014 12:47 pm

    I also think that unless you’re working at SPC (or wherever) then judging whether or not they ‘deserve’ the conditions of employment in their agreement is something which is irrelevant & stated from ignorance.

  209. Walrus permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:49 pm

    “I might remind you that this is an agreement BETWEEN management and the employee representatives their union … ”

    Yep

    And they can fucking well live and die by it without taxpayer funds.

    Without going into the CC Amatil Annual Accounts I’d hate to think of what kind of internal charges are put through as part of SPCs P & L.

    That’s standard practice amongst plent of conglomerates. Perhaps SPC dioes not match the CCA shareholder rate of return.

    If so……………………………….I dont fucking care. Its their problem

    The whole fucking thing is most likely better off going back to being a co-op without its share of Sydney Head Office costs ( I assume the HO is still in Sydney).

    In fact if CCA does abandon it I’d bet everyone walks away with a fat redundancy and six months later they are re-employed under a new EA in a Co-Op

  210. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:52 pm

    Sex crime charges laid against man ‘married’ to 13yo girl:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-07/sex-crime-charges-laid-against-man-married-to-12yo/5244642

    I hope this case gets a lot of publicity. This man should be jailed IMO, to send a message to males/parents who might think they can do the same in australia.

  211. Walrus permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:54 pm

    “The agreement sets out in incredible detail the various types of work in the plant and has detailed prescriptions for each type of work, including payments, and rostering. ”

    Which is the same crap I referred to the other day in relation to a certain level of restaurant employe not being perm,itted under their grade to greet and seat customers.

    The “red tape” within some awards is just fucking ridiculous

  212. Walrus permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:55 pm

    “This man should be jailed IMO, to send a message to males/parents who might think they can do the same in australia.”

    Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm……………………….

    I wonder what religion would even allow that……….????????????????????

  213. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:56 pm

    And they can fucking well live and die by it without taxpayer funds.

    And so can all private enterprise operating in australia, including miners, farmers, religious organisations and the finance industry. No subsidies, rebates or favourable tax arrangements for anyone.

  214. TB Queensland permalink
    February 7, 2014 12:57 pm

    Ser T, my initial reaction to those comments I posted were “what ignorance … that’s what managers are supposed to do” … the four “pillars” of management are planning, leading, organising and controlling … they then split off into detail eg strategic planning, tactical, resource, HR, admin etc …

    Later I got to thinking – I wonder if that’s why it was actually spelled out in that agreement? Management really didn’t know what their roles were?

    I too have been involved in bargaining and agreement negotiations … and from all sides union rep., manager and HRM/HRD/OH&S … and on occasion as a consultant used as an on-site independent sounding board!

    If you really want to look at “conditions” check out teachers … and then have a look at national learning outcomes …

  215. TB Queensland permalink
    February 7, 2014 1:04 pm

    … a certain level of restaurant employe not being perm,itted under their grade to greet and seat customers.

    And you would be the first to whinge and complain if a dork greeted … “sit ‘ere” … “wotja want?” … “… an’ you missis?” … “aw, fk ‘ere’s another bunch a fkwits – just sit down, will ya!”

    I did my apprenticeship with a bloke who became a top mechanic … when they gave him a job a service advisor he lasted two weeks … he got so out of his depth that he told a customer “I didn’t ask for this fkn job y’know!”

    Like bean counting not all jobs are for all people … and as you mentioned earlier, Wally, people should be paid for their skill set … not everyone the same … that’s very commo of you … 😉

  216. Walrus permalink
    February 7, 2014 1:14 pm

    “And you would be the first to whinge and complain if a dork greeted … “sit ‘ere” … “wotja want?” … “… an’ you missis?” … “aw, fk ‘ere’s another bunch a fkwits – just sit down, will ya!”……….”

    LOL

    I tend to visit restaurants of more exotic origins so I have never had the experience that you outlined above.

    But obviously in the light of the experiences had by you I advise that perhaps you should give up the bistro at the local RSL and copy my more cultured habits in cuisine.

  217. TB Queensland permalink
    February 7, 2014 1:24 pm

    “I didn’t ask for this fkn job y’know!”

    Apologies I got that wrong … that’s what he said when he was being disciplined (he went back on the floor) …

    He’d told the customer, “Well I didn’t tell you to buy the fkn car did I!”

  218. TB Queensland permalink
    February 7, 2014 1:29 pm

    I tend to visit restaurants of more exotic origins so I have never had the experience that you outlined above.

    Yeah, well then I rest my case re your understanding of awards – above award payments, individual contracts, common law contracts, enterprise and industry agreements, the VET system, employee/management interaction (both good and bad) and the role of unions in buusiness (both good and bad).

    i have always conceded your understanding of tax, money, tax, money and tax … 🙂 😉

  219. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 1:30 pm

    bright can allowance and all………

    Do you have an issue with the bright can allowance?

    I thought most here supported people getting paid for skills?

  220. TB Queensland permalink
    February 7, 2014 1:30 pm

    Oh, did I include HRM/HRD/OH&S/Worker’s Comp and hands on management of large groups of people?

  221. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 7, 2014 1:33 pm

    The SPC agreement is a crock.

    It represents a surrender by the company of its essential leadership, it has abrogated this to subcommittees. This is actually quite common in traditional manufacturing, and increasingly common in mining.

    In construction the leadership was surrendered decades ago, but these days all the positions on the subcommittee are held by the Comancheros.

  222. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 7, 2014 1:34 pm

    What he has done is killed off SPC, and his reasoning for it was exposed as a lie.

    At morning tea this morning on the table was a packet of jelly beans from Thailand, some wafer biscuits from the EU and some chips from Britain.

    Is Abbott responsible for that??

    Fact is manufacturing is too expensive in Australia. I do believe some companies do need taxpayer help from time to time and SPC may be that case. But giving two years in redundancy payments is outrageous.

  223. February 7, 2014 1:36 pm

    maybe a nice latex what would you prefer walrus?

  224. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 1:41 pm

    The SPC agreement is a crock.

    Are you able to opine why? Without resorting to misrepresentation like Tony Abbott did?

  225. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 7, 2014 1:53 pm

    Agreements should be able to be read and accessible by the people it applies to, both managers administering it, and employees who access entitlements and observe it.

    The agreement is rigid in stream definition, unwieldy in the multiple processes that cover different types of grievances and decision making.

    It is an agreement overburdened with process, with employee entitlements buried in there, all but inaccessible for easy reference by employees. It was probably negotiated by an HR functionary and the union, with the HR hack demonstrating their interest in HR job creation. The EBA is intended to guarantee employment for a non-value adding factory bureaucrat.

  226. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 7, 2014 2:02 pm

    Now the SMH is unaustralian, will it be attacked and an investigation demanded into fairfax?

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/investigation-burned-hands-on-the-high-seas-20140206-hvbdl.html

    The defence minister doesn’t seem to have a clue about his portfolio other than to say that the navy have been maliciously maligned and he’s been assured by top brass that there is no substance to the rumours, despite knowing nothing about “operational matters”. They should only have an investigation if they are first found to be guilty [huh???]

    I wonder if that how defence and government have viewed accusations of sexual assaults by naval personnel upon their own members?

  227. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 7, 2014 2:08 pm

    If we can have a sports and a motorists party, we should also be represented by this political party.

    ABC Friends mull election run:

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/abc-friends-mull-election-run-20140207-32649.html

  228. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 7, 2014 2:18 pm

    “ABC Friends mull election run”

    The ABC doesn’t really need more friends like that lot – it is already filled to the gunnels with leftists.

    I wonder who the Friends will preference? Probably the ABC’s other “friends” the Greens and Labor. The ABC (for obvious reasons) gets great support from both of those parties.

  229. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 7, 2014 2:23 pm

    Ooooh noooo, it’s a war! libs/murdoch vs abc

    http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/liberal-ad-pulled-from-youtube-over-copyright-breach-20140206-324mm.html

    Libs think they own the ABC and it should run propaganda and interference for them just like the murdochracy does. The ABC must be bullied into submission.

  230. February 7, 2014 2:28 pm

    ”””””””The agreement is rigid in stream definition, unwieldy in the multiple processes that cover different types of grievances and decision making.
    It is an agreement overburdened with process”””””””

    That is a standard fundy-teabag blurt, made by those that are always hell-bent on snipping away from the worker even the smallest benefit. Those that earn per year, a decades worth of tin-stuffer wages, should look to Detroit as a major study lesson on what fundy-teabags promote.

  231. February 7, 2014 2:39 pm

    ”””””’certain level of restaurant employe not being perm,itted under their grade to greet and seat customers.
    The “red tape” within some awards is just fucking ridiculous”””””’

    This is bullshit.

    The biz can train/and-pay multiple staff to this level,

    in fact, there is nothing stopping biz to train and pay ALL staff to said level.

  232. February 7, 2014 2:45 pm

    OKAY
    ”””””’certain level of restaurant employe not being perm,itted under their grade to greet and seat customers.
    The “red tape” within some awards is just fucking ridiculous”””””’

    This is bullshit.

    The biz can train/and-pay multiple staff to this level,

    in fact, there is nothing stopping biz to train and pay ALL staff to said level.

  233. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 7, 2014 2:48 pm

    “Libs think they own the ABC and it should run propaganda and interference for them just like the murdochracy does. “

    Not so. The ABC does its level best to cover for Labor and the Greens. In return the ABC gets increased funding from them. Why do you think it is newsworthy to report baseless allegations against the Navy, but the fact that Police are investigating the PM’s ties with union corruption?

    Obviously the ABC will complain if the Libs use ABC footage, but not if Getup or the ALP does. Just business as usual in Unionland – one rule for the Labor mates and another for the class enemy.

  234. February 7, 2014 2:56 pm

    After asking people who have `actually` worked in `food-and-beverage`, most of our fundy-teabags wailing is bullshit.

    1-Biz/cafe/take-away/restaurant doesn`t open/close on worker-whims, but owner-whims.

    2-Biz `chooses` if staff is needed, NOT workers.

    3-lf Biz wants to open AND wants `hired-staff`, Biz decides how many, and when.

  235. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 7, 2014 3:00 pm

    ‘That is a standard fundy-teabag blurt…’

    Hilarious, Teabag has a template response to all points.

  236. February 7, 2014 3:02 pm

    4-Biz-boss that wants his own time-off, and therefore leaves his-biz to trade, in capable trusted workers hands, never pay `trusted-worker` the rock-bottom minimum that our fundy teabags are demanding.

  237. February 7, 2014 3:10 pm

    ””””””has a template response to all points.””””””’

    #Pot
    #Kettle
    #Black

    the difference is l attach an explainer when l call bullshit

  238. Meta permalink
    February 7, 2014 3:18 pm

    (Me, I’m still waiting to find out how a complex suite of legislation comprising a CPRS, and covering a variety of matters, is reduced down to an accountant’s simple ideas about a singular tax; just the same as I do wonder why those who keep verballing Gillard continue to do so well after clear evidence of her coda has been presented to them umpteen gazillion times.)

  239. TB Queensland permalink
    February 7, 2014 3:19 pm

    Very wordy this arvo, ToM … does that indicate some obfuscation or just a bit of fluster?

    The agreement is rigid in stream definition, unwieldy in the multiple processes that cover different types of grievances and decision making.

    It is an agreement overburdened with process, with employee entitlements buried in there, all but inaccessible for easy reference by employees. It was probably negotiated by an HR functionary and the union, with the HR hack demonstrating their interest in HR job creation. The EBA is intended to guarantee employment for a non-value adding factory bureaucrat.

    So what you are saying, is that the agreement is well structured, comprehensive and detailed.

    As for your opinion regarding HR functions – competent management utilise all HR functions as advisory specialists only.

    HR generally have no line management function unless (incorrectly) delegated the authority by immature, unqualified and/or inexperienced managers and/or directors. In other words they don’t (shouldn’t) sign contractual agreements on behalf of companies.

    Incompetent management abrogate their responsibility by delegating HR personnel to carry out what are really management’s prime role in planning, leading, organising and controlling the functions of a business to profit shareholders …

    That’s quite funny really … seing that he’s trying to call out the SPC Agreement as difficult to comprehend …

    Most contracts are difficult to undertsnad by most people – just get them to try and interpret a Last Will & Testament (you all have one I trust) …

    Awards are difficult to understand if you don’t work in the industry … even tax laws confuse people unless you’re a CPA* like Wally …

    (One of the best subjects I ever studied – Contract Law (delivered by a really competent lawyer at – of all places – TAFE … and something my BBus. never covered quite the same as he did …)

  240. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 7, 2014 3:22 pm

    fundy teabags free trade standard response fundy teabags free fundy teabags free trade standard response fundy teabags free trade standard response trade standard response fundy teabags free trade standard response fundy teabags free trade standard response fundy teabags free trade standard response

    Nothing like diversity in template replies, but you’ve said I’m a ‘free trade’ tea bag. Could you identify my particular comments that justify this?

  241. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 7, 2014 3:33 pm

    TB, an EBA isn’t an award, I’m sure you understand that.

    It is (relatively) understandable that awards will be complex, they’re applied across thousands of employers and possibly a million workers.

    There are also multi site agreements which might be a little more complex.

    But this is a single site agreement, covering food processing, less than a thousand employees.

    You might explain why it is necessary to have multiple grievance procedures, for example.

  242. egg permalink
    February 7, 2014 3:35 pm

    ‘Libs think they own the ABC and it should run propaganda…’

    LOL

  243. February 7, 2014 3:35 pm

    ”””””advertisement had been pulled by YouTube.”””””””

    haha Mr-Rabbit is being conspired against by the leftist youtube/google organization that is yanking teabag videos and closing deceptive fundy accounts by so-called `technical-error` and interfering in the `free-speech` of the center, center, right 😆

    http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/liberal-ad-pulled-from-youtube-over-copyright-breach-20140206-324mm.html

  244. egg permalink
    February 7, 2014 3:41 pm

    ‘…those who keep verballing Gillard continue to do so well after clear evidence of her coda has been presented to them umpteen gazillion times.’

    Jools lied like a pig in mud and there is clear evidence she bent over backwards for the Greens so that she could remain PM.

  245. February 7, 2014 3:44 pm

    ””””””””””””You might explain why it is necessary to have multiple grievance procedures, for example.””””””’

    Actually, you are the one that `does`not like it, so you should have the nads to say why. You advocate the change, you explain beyond the mealy-mouth management template.

  246. Walrus permalink
    February 7, 2014 3:59 pm

    “Now the SMH is unaustralian, will it be attacked and an investigation demanded into fairfax?”

    Naaaaaaaaah

    Fairfax can waste its money as it wants. If it wants to send a Journo to Indo for weeks at a time asking Dog knows how many people until it gets an answer that suits its agenda then so be it.

    I tend to believe the RAN rather than some asylum seeker/country shopper who has just pissed $10K up against a wall.

    Oh and by the way it seems the ABC earlier today posted some phone video of one of the RAN’s big orange life boats being TOWED (I thought it couldn’t happen) back to Indo full of asylum seeker/country shopper. But now the footage has mysteriously disappeared from its website.

    Some Leftie Head Honco in the ABC must have just come back from Lunch.

    Oh well other sites are now showing it

    Yeah………no bias at the ABC at all

  247. Walrus permalink
    February 7, 2014 4:01 pm

    “……..so you should have the nads to say why. ”

    Nothing is fucking obvious to you is it pea brain ?

  248. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 7, 2014 4:02 pm

    Multiple grievance procedures and complex systems lead to debates/disputes about process, distracting from the substantive employee entitlement issues.

    Process disputes will always involve the ‘experts’ – HR hacks and union delegates. It is job creation for non value adding overheads.

    The bureaucrats don’t want simple grievance resolution systems, they prefer plenty of complication. Simplicity undermines their relevance.

  249. February 7, 2014 4:05 pm

    ”””””’Jools lied like a pig in mud”””””””

    unlike mr-rabbit who lied like a pig in mud and there is clear evidence he bent over FORwards for rupert so that he could become PM.

  250. Meta permalink
    February 7, 2014 4:06 pm

    (Yeah, I know she lied outrageously, El G; but now we’re left in suspense until mid-year, waiting for the not-tax payout to big palootas to pass, and waiting to commence work on bio-charring the drought-stricken earth in the cool, crisp winter before the next angry summer arrives.)

  251. egg permalink
    February 7, 2014 4:14 pm

    ‘drought-stricken earth’

    Its like a dog send, human induced CO2 keeps the planet green.

    On the political front, a double dissolution election will happen if Clive and his loons in the senate don’t play ball in July.

  252. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 7, 2014 4:18 pm

    Meta, the issue is not whether the “complex suite of legislation” is more than a tax, but whether, inter alia, it imposes a carbon tax for that is what Gillard promised not to do. The legislation is in fact specifically drafted so that it complies with s.55 of the Constitution which would, if the legislation not so drafted, render it an unconstitutional tax.

    The High Court has considered many and varied government imposts and charges and has found things like the superannuation guarantee charge, a fee paid by passengers for “immigration clearance” and a charge on blank tapes to be paid to copyright owners.

    Also Gillard verballed herself when she admitted that it functions effectively as a tax. So it is bit cute of her army of arse-lickers to take (fallacious) points about whether technically it is a tax. If you promise not to do something and then achieve the same thing by other methods people might quite reasonably think they were duped.

    The ugly truth is that Gillard broke her promise not to impose a carbon tax. She also failed to consult or achieve consensus on a carbon price. And who can forget her promise to wear out her shoe-leather around the country selling her hideous scheme. She went to a couple of meetings got the hostile reception she deserved. And then quit.

  253. February 7, 2014 4:22 pm

    ”””””””””””’Multiple grievance procedures and complex systems lead to debates/disputes about process, distracting from the substantive employee entitlement issues.”””””””’

    But who caused this. You will try to `pin` it on union/worker, but this type of stuff has to be included for anything to progress on the `workforce/benefit` side.

    ””””””’Process disputes will always involve the ‘experts’ – HR hacks and union delegates. It is job creation for non value adding overheads.”””””

    Company`s sucked themselves in with hr-hacks, all under their own steam.

    .

    ””””””””””The bureaucrats don’t want simple grievance resolution systems, they prefer plenty of complication.””””””’

    ”””””’Simplicity undermines their relevance.””””””

    Traditionally, monster employers have disallowed simplicity.
    eg.many workers would never get a pay-rise, no matter how much the rest of things increased in cost, ie-cost-of-living,

    (most monster employers have never said, our workers copped a 7% increase in their living costs this year, so our monster biz will give them a 7% payrise)

  254. Meta permalink
    February 7, 2014 4:43 pm

    (You might be right, Splatter; the Abbott-LNP Government does seem fairly certain that it’s repealing a carbon tax and clean energy package; and the relevant Bills Digest also confirms that is so; even if the ABC does seem to remain a bit muddle-headed in its archival explainer.)

  255. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 7, 2014 4:44 pm

    “I wonder what religion would even allow that……….????????????????????”

    I’m sorry, but it would be racist to tell you. There is no free speech in a politically correct society.

  256. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 5:02 pm

    Agreements should be able to be read and accessible by the people it applies to, both managers administering it, and employees who access entitlements and observe it.

    It is a public document.

    The agreement is rigid in stream definition,

    Some would say unambiguous

    unwieldy in the multiple processes that cover different types of grievances and decision making.

    So, you are aware of what the Bright Can Allowance is then. that seems to be an example that disputes your statement. Have you an example that supports it?

    It is an agreement overburdened with process, with employee entitlements buried in there, all but inaccessible for easy reference by employees.

    It’s called the “Contents”

    The rest is just your posturing and pouting. I think Meta’s comment about surfing earlier applies here

  257. February 7, 2014 5:07 pm

    ”””””’filled to the gunnels with leftists.””””””’

    Rest assured, l have recently taken the compressor to my ABC`s gunnels in Ultimo, and given them a good blowing out. The gunnels are now clear. (Holmes landed in Pyrmont) l have also fitted lefty-proof mesh to prevent future gunnel blocking. The outstanding task is scraping the teabag-stooges out of the boardroom. l just need to find a stronger scraper.

  258. February 7, 2014 5:33 pm

    ””’fundy teabags free trade standard response””’
    ””’Nothing like diversity in template replies, but you’ve said I’m a ‘free trade’ tea bag.”””
    *
    ””’Could you identify my particular comments that justify this?””’

    So you don`t think your anti-worker, unions-boo rhetoric doesn`t qualify you as a fundy-teabag.?

  259. Walrus permalink
    February 7, 2014 5:36 pm

    “I’m sorry, but it would be racist to tell you.”

    You must be right. I was listening to 2 differing Commercial AM Radio Stations at 3pm and 4pm and at 3pm I learnt that the man was Shi-ite Muslim and at 4pm I listened as an immigaration advocacy group said the whole matter was partially the fault of our Immigration Department for not educating new arrivals properly.

    Of course it didn’t occur to the bloke in question that marrying a 12 year old might be pushing the envelope of age of consent just a tad.

    I just switched over to the ABC at 5pm and there is no mention of the case at all

    Fuck me dead let me off this planet……………………Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaark

  260. February 7, 2014 5:38 pm

    Doesn`t your corporate-cheerleading, free-trade-dumping silence, indicate your approval of free-trade dumping.?

  261. Walrus permalink
    February 7, 2014 5:47 pm

    Dear Teabag of Melbourne,

    Just a short note to let you know that if you equate fear of Trade Unions with being a card carrying member of the Tea Party then you also are implying that Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Kruchev, Breznev were also Right Wing Tea Baggers.

    It was not until the rise of Solidarity in Poland that Trade Unions breathed again.

    Anyway, that’s all for now ………………until you say something stupid again.

    Kind Regards

    Signed the Walrus

  262. February 7, 2014 5:58 pm

    The fundy-teabags are easy to predict. Sometime in the future, fundy-teabags will mindlessly chant,

    ***********there is no conclusive scientific evidence that cell-phones cause brain or soft tissue tumors**************

  263. Meta permalink
    February 7, 2014 6:05 pm

    (All I know about the continuing spate of individual and institutional mistreatment and abuse of women and children; including the right to a childhood unmolested, a right not to have sexual or any kind of violence inflicted upon them at any time besides, and a right to an education, including about such matters and rights, is that collective ‘humanity’ still has a lot of serious work to do, just about everywhere, it seems.)

  264. Walrus permalink
    February 7, 2014 6:06 pm

    “***********there is no conclusive scientific evidence that cell-phones cause brain or soft tissue tumors**************”

    Obviously it does since something has eaten your brain

  265. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 7, 2014 6:20 pm

    So you don`t think your anti-worker, unions-boo rhetoric doesn`t qualify you as a fundy-teabag.?

    Typical obfuscation from illiterate dill.

  266. February 7, 2014 6:30 pm

    ”””’Obviously it does since something has”””

    You are already `off-message Blubbers. 😆

  267. February 7, 2014 6:33 pm

    #FundyTeabagTooGutlessForMeaningfulAnswer 🙂

  268. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 7, 2014 6:53 pm

    Really, perhaps you could try to be lucid enough to explain where it is that I’ve posted support for “free trade”

    Otherwise just own up that you’re inclined to invent stuff.

  269. TB Queensland permalink
    February 7, 2014 7:02 pm

    You might explain why it is necessary to have multiple grievance procedures, for example.

    Dumb management … in my experience (and it seems the unions) … that’s why I was called in after dumb consultants … (true story)

    Jools lied like a pig in mud and there is clear evidence she bent over backwards for the Greens so that she could remain PM.

    Guess who is in government now … move on FFS!

  270. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 7, 2014 7:05 pm

    Dumb management …

    Quite probably, a management that is beholden to chain dragging HR bureaucrats and union delegates is most likely to be dumb.

  271. February 7, 2014 7:14 pm

    And guess who brought in the
    ””’chain dragging HR bureaucrats””’ yomm.?

  272. egg permalink
    February 7, 2014 7:20 pm

    Meta if Abbott is forced to a double D election there is a strong likelihood that he would pull a rabbit out of the hat and tell the electorate about the hiatus.

    It would be a divisive and bitter conflict, yet the outcome certain. The monk wants to avoid being the cause of universal division, he would prefer aunty give up her partisan ways and get real …. ‘the science is crap’.

    The Denialati want to see a double D because they know Abbott’s Direct Action is a load of shite and he’d be forced to take it off the party platform.

  273. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 7, 2014 7:22 pm

    Teabag, many companies you criticise are making legitimate efforts at reform, in order to survive. The state of the business is a consequence of poor past management.

    Past management have abrogated their leadership, passed it on to unions and HR chain draggers.

    But you, and TB to a degree, criticise the reform efforts.

    Just tell me, should management just continue to leave it up to the unions, or should they try to salvage the business, and (some of) the jobs?

  274. Walrus permalink
    February 7, 2014 7:33 pm

    And if dumping is such a problem along with a high Australian dollar how do you Lefties explain the reasonably robust, albeit has been stronger, wine industry which still exports rotten grape juice and sells in Australia despite widespread dumping of EU wine

  275. February 7, 2014 7:50 pm

    ””””But you, and TB to a degree, criticise the reform efforts.”””””

    Criticized because the so-called `reforms` jettison the jobs, wages and conditions of those at the bottom, while preserving boardroom trough-snouting.

    When a true reform, that trims the boardroom if needed, not the worker, not Govt-welfare, l`m sure l (and probably TB) will look upon it with less cynicism.

  276. February 7, 2014 8:00 pm

    ”””””’making legitimate efforts at reform, in order to survive. The state of the business is a consequence of poor past management.
    Past management have abrogated their leadership””””””

    Then the current board should be prosecuting `the-failure` in the courts, and seeking the shareholder funds obtained fraudulently/negligently from previous boards. lf the boardroom has driven the biz into the ground, Why should they keep the Million$ paid to it.? Plenty of biz effort is used to try and extort Govt-welfare. Redirect this effort to pursuing `failed-boardroom-excesses`.

  277. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 7, 2014 8:01 pm

    What Teabag means is that when boards and CEOs are members of unions and covered by a minimum rates award such as “The Chief Executive Officers Industrial Award 2014”, he’ll be happy.

    Until then Teabag will invent reasons to to resist every reasonable attempt to salvage businesses…

    (…and invent the opinions of others)

  278. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 8:07 pm

    The state of the business is a consequence of poor past management.

    I agree with that. Management in this country is woeful. Mind you, I’m not aware of many situations where unions have been lumped with the role. I know they have been lumped with the blame much of the time. And some of the time it is probably deserved.

    I haven’t seen as yet any examples of where SPC or their EBA can be blamed. I mentioned the Bright Can Allowance before, which has been the butt of much mirth. But nobody has cared to actually explain why it is so wrong.

    Too busy abusing to worry about addressing.

  279. February 7, 2014 8:08 pm

    And there ya`go showin`ya fundy-teabag beliefs yomm.

    You go to blather when the suggestion is put forward to pursue boardroom million$, but cling to ya`fundy teabag wetdream of trimming the workers 50K$ to 40K$

  280. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 7, 2014 8:09 pm

    “I haven’t seen as yet any examples of where SPC or their EBA can be blamed

    What about the two years of severance pay?? I have never seen anything like it except for Holden workers and maybe other auto workers.

  281. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 8:17 pm

    What about the two years of severance pay?

    That has been quite common, in order to attract long term employees to reduce the cost of training. Many companies see the financial benefit of keeping employees

  282. February 7, 2014 8:18 pm

    and this is bullshit yomm,

    ””””should management just continue to leave it up to the unions””””

    no biz just ”leaveS it up to the unions””

  283. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 7, 2014 8:18 pm

    Plenty of CEOs sacrifice base salary for equity, they’re backing their ability to reform the business and improve its value, no doubt you object to that too.

  284. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 7, 2014 8:25 pm

    That has been quite common, in order to attract long term employees to reduce the cost of training.”

    Is that true?? Two years severance pay is common?? If so no wonder manufacturing is leaving.

  285. February 7, 2014 8:26 pm

    ”””companies you criticise are making legitimate efforts at reform””’

    But is that coz they are trying to extort taxpayer $welfare from Govt.?

    Remember yomm, fundy teabags state and federal have disposed of the publics gold-medal assets (telco-water-power) mindlessly chanting private enterprise does `everything` quicker, better, cheaper.

    So there is even less reason to interfere with `private`biz, now.

  286. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 8:28 pm

    Two years severance pay is common?

    Maximum 2 years, remmeber

    It would take somehting like 25 years to work that up

    And the other nagging point is SPC showed figures that ALL of these ‘luxuries’ were under 0.1% of costs.

  287. February 7, 2014 8:28 pm

    Yeah, those back-dated options are really `earned` yomm.

  288. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 7, 2014 8:31 pm

    Accrual of 2 years redundancy is uncommon. Maybe public servants are used to it.

    It may be the factor that stops SPC from closing, it may be cheaper to run the plant at a loss then pay a $billion in redundancy payments.

  289. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 7, 2014 8:32 pm

    …and it sin’t capped at 2 years, there are loadings of up to 20% for age. So the cap is up to 125 weeks.

  290. February 7, 2014 8:37 pm

    Jagged, its all bullshit, these teabag talk-points.

    The Coke/spc process workers only get wages, this is no lotto-win, gravy-train, they earn their money workin` a relatively shitty job on a process line.

    Look at the line of company structure, one company owning another company, owning another company.

    Which is —-> Coke-usa —-> Coke-Aust —-> spc-admona

    Those 3-boardrooms would pay themselves more money than the whole spc workforce`s life, in probably 3-years.

  291. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 7, 2014 8:43 pm

    “Those 3-boardrooms would pay themselves more money than the whole spc workforce`s life, in probably 3-years.”

    O.K. you have made a statement, what is your solution??

    Mark Scott (ABC) is on 800K/year. A lot of Public Servant fat cats are on similar money. And i guess they would vote ALP.

  292. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 7, 2014 8:52 pm

    ”its all bullshit, these teabag talk-points”

    …and with that Teabag finally admits he has no idea what he’s talking about when it comes to-
    *working in a factory
    *chain dragging unions
    *HR hacks
    *slothful managers
    *reformist leadership
    *executive remuneration
    *grammar and spelling

  293. February 7, 2014 8:54 pm

    No sirree, l`m no free-trading fundy-teabag,
    no matter what anybody says, no-siiiirrrr-eee.

    Just coz l sing from the exact same song-sheet,
    that don`t make me no fundy-teabag, no-siirr-ee.

    An`just coz l begrudge some tin-stuffing pleb some redundacy money when he loses his job, no sir, that don`t make me a fundy-teabag.

    And even when l cry tears of blood for those poor under-paid boardrooms that are left high and dry without `back-dated` options and no price manipulated shares.

    No Sir. l am no Fundy Teabag.

  294. February 7, 2014 9:06 pm

    Wasnt the economy in Crisis meltdown oh no its all those disabled tree hugging medicine bulk billing abc leftist union commo’s?
    http://www.smh.com.au/business/comment-and-analysis/rba-takes-away-joe-hockeys-pain-20140207-3266j.html

  295. TB Queensland permalink
    February 7, 2014 9:09 pm

    And guess who brought in the
    ””’chain dragging HR bureaucrats””’ yomm.?

    Yep, I’d give up while your brhind, ToM …

    Luv to reply to other comments but family beats the piss out of you lot! Tamorra! 😉

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    sReb! Are you protesting or ridng the elefant?

  296. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 7, 2014 9:31 pm

    “Those horrible ABC biased lefties”

    Name me anyone like Andrew Bolt, Piers Akerman, Janet Alberctson, Tim Blair on the ABC.

    These people and people like them have 40% of the vote in Australia and people like them are not on the ABC.

  297. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 7, 2014 9:38 pm

    Alan Jones and Ray Hadley as well

  298. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 7, 2014 9:40 pm

    l am no Fundy Teabag.

    No, you’re a semi literate dill.

  299. February 7, 2014 9:48 pm

    ”””””””Name me anyone like Andrew Bolt, Piers Akerman, Janet Alberctson, on the ABC.””””””

    They have been on my ABC plenty of times, and break their necks to do so.

    (blair don`t know)

    Albrechtsen, been on the ABC board, neck-breaker to get on shows, on QandaLand next week.

    Bolt, had regular gig on insiders, got paid $800 buck per episode, reported by crikey, fetch.

    Piers, now has regular gig on insiders, probably gets same as bolt,

    Albrectsen, Devine, Piers, Bolt, all been on QandaLand many times, insiders too,

    both shows, and drum, regularly have Limited-News Talking-Head Trolls on them,

    your point is total bullshit kneel

  300. egg permalink
    February 7, 2014 9:50 pm

    And also Graham Richardson.

    ‘MARK Scott just doesn’t get it. Despite all the warning signs over the past two years at least, he does not seem to understand that many senior Coalition figures see the ABC as the enemy. These people may not make too many public statements about their antipathy towards the ABC but in private they are only too happy to unburden themselves.

    ‘That the ABC is biased towards Labor is now an article of faith in the Coalition. Cabinet ministers make no secret of their reluctance to appear on programs such as Q & A. They argue that the audience is always biased against them and they have to be pushed and prodded to appear.

    ‘There are exceptions, of course. You would be entitled to be disappointed if you don’t see Christopher Pyne or Malcolm Turnbull promoted as being on the next show. These two appear so often that it shifts the focus from their colleagues who turn up rarely.’

  301. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 7, 2014 9:55 pm

    “Albrechtsen, been on the ABC board, neck-breaker to get on shows, on QandaLand next week.”

    Wow, one of 5 or something like that.

    Bolt, had regular gig on insiders, got paid $800 buck per episode, reported by crikey, fetch.”

    Another brain dead comment. Bolt was the only conservative. There was always Bob hawkes supporter (Cassidy), another two lefties and one conservative (Bolt).

    Get fucked.

  302. February 7, 2014 9:56 pm

    ””””””””’Cabinet ministers make no secret of their reluctance to appear on programs such as Q & A. They argue that the audience is always biased against them and they have to be pushed and prodded to appear.”””””’

    Yeah right Dumpty,
    you just try and stop Mr-Talk-bull appearin` 🙄

  303. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 7, 2014 10:00 pm

    …and it sin’t capped at 2 years

    Yes, true Tom, it is now capped at one year. Well spotted

    And let’s not forget

    The total cost of allowances for all production staff at SPC Ardmona for the entire year of 2013 was $116,467, which represents less than 0.1% of the business’s cost of goods for the year.

    http://ccamatil.com/InvestorRelations/md/2014/SPCA%20Provides%20Facts%20On%20Worker%20Allowances%20040214.pdf

    Hard to blame percentages like that.

  304. February 7, 2014 10:03 pm

    No. You get fcuked.
    You are spouting nonsense, and clearly don`t watch the show,

    Barrie is the host, he has 3-guests per episode,

    it alternates,

    this week, one tea-tard and two non-tea-tards,

    next week, two tea-tards and one non-tea-tard,

    Barrie has to, to meet the charter on balance

  305. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 7, 2014 10:11 pm

    “You are spouting nonsense, and clearly don`t watch the show, ”

    Your token conservative (Bolt) is no longer on the show.

    The format is always 3 lefties and one conservative even though we get 40% of the vote.

  306. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 7, 2014 10:11 pm

    Capped at 125 weeks, ie 104 weeks plus up to 20%

    …and only for anyone who started within about the past year or so – capped at 63 week – an extra 20% based on age,

    Wasn’t it you who said the objective was to have long serving employees?

    So, the main factor that will keep the plant open will be the unwillingness to spend a $billion or so on redundancy payments.

  307. February 7, 2014 10:12 pm

    l would have to say it`s near impossible to stop Mr-Poodle`s `mincing` also.

    #QandaLand

  308. egg permalink
    February 7, 2014 10:35 pm

    ‘Barrie has to, to meet the charter on balance’

    Neil is correct, Insiders is unbalanced.

  309. February 7, 2014 10:35 pm

    ””””””’So, the main factor that will keep the plant open will be the unwillingness to spend a $billion or so on redundancy payments.””””””

    The Fundy Teabag Talk-point.

    OR, the main factor that will keep the plant open will be the Coke-owned fruit-juice based beverage lines, and fruit-sugars/flavors required by Coke.

    #No Sir. No Fundy Teabag Am I.

  310. February 7, 2014 10:43 pm

    ”””’kneel is correct”””””’

    Dumpy, you wouldn`t know `correct` if it jumped up and hit you with tea-spoon and cracked your shell.

  311. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 7, 2014 10:51 pm

    OK name me anybody like Bolt, Akerman, Albrechton, Jones , hadley who run an ABC program whether TV or radio???

  312. February 8, 2014 12:52 am

    All but Hadley who is too liables and retardedly stupid to appear on the ABC have done on many occasions, Bolt left to start his own little 1/2 hr of hate of factless brand expanding foppery for fucktards like you kneely.. Then again that link I posted contained information which obviously went strait over your pointy little head.

  313. February 8, 2014 1:02 am

    So this kid in a shop today asked me “is it true that in Australia you can earn 30 ringgit ($10) an hour?

    Yes I said, it might even be a bit higher..

    He couldn’t believe it.

    A shop assistant here earns $10 a day (if they’re lucky, and can speak three languages)..

    Workers who can’t speak English earn less..

  314. February 8, 2014 1:17 am

    l can already hear our teabags mumbling 25 ringgit a day is plenty for coles/woolies plebs.

  315. February 8, 2014 1:24 am

    I think Gina has already suggested the minimum wage should be $2 a day… After all, she can ship in plebs who are prepared to work for that…

  316. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 8, 2014 6:31 am

    So, the main factor that will keep the plant open will be the unwillingness to spend a $billion or so on redundancy payments.

    Even if every worker there was over 60, I can’t see your maths working Tom.

    Wasn’t it you who said the objective was to have long serving employees?

    Yes, and, the Unions have negotiated LOWER conditions even more favourable for the company, and yet Tony Abbott still victimises them with lies. He won’t be happy until they are on par with African workers.

    OK name me anybody like Bolt, Akerman, Albrechton, Jones , hadley who run an ABC program whether TV or radio?

    Why would the ABC want partisan fools that are ignorant of facts?

    Oh yea, when I put it like that, they have Uhlman.

    The format is always 3 lefties and one conservative

    Always?

    Barrie Cassidy is joined by Tory Shepherd from The Advertiser, Dennis Atkins from The Courier Mail and The Australian’s Niki Savva.
    http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2013/s3936485.htm

  317. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 8, 2014 7:42 am

    The problem with the agreement is its length and the relative complexity of the processes.

    It’s only 95 pages long? To describe an entire factories working conditions, wages, allowance and processes, as you complained, in quite forensic detail. It is this very detail that is appreciated by both management and staff. It is clear what is allowed and what isn’t, and what is required from all parties. One of the major issues with the previous workchoices was the ambiguity in the agreements. Many workers, and employers, were unceretain exactly what was required of them, although many defaulted to the ‘whatever the boss says’ scenario. As has been seen on too many occassions, ‘whatever the boss says’ leads to more problems than desired.

    As to the “complexity of the processes”, I assume you mean all those hours working through arrangements with people who won’t just accept ‘whatever the boss says’ instead of spending your time more profitably, like surfing perhaps?

  318. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 8, 2014 7:49 am

    China flexes

    Australia’s strategic environment changed a week ago, even if much of our media did not notice. Last weekend, a Chinese taskforce of three warships steamed south through the Sunda Strait to conduct combat simulations and other exercises in the Indian Ocean, somewhere between Indonesia and Christmas Island.

    http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2014/02/07/China-makes-statement-as-it-sends-naval-ships-off-Australias-maritime-approaches.aspx#.UvTjpvVyShG.twitter

  319. egg permalink
    February 8, 2014 8:05 am

    The Chinese recently boasted that their nuclear armed submarine fleet could take out every city in the US if they wanted to.

    Strategic thinking.

    Also, Ji and Putin have met five time in the past six months. This is merely a coincidence.

  320. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 8, 2014 9:36 am

    Cadbury’s parent company Mondelez granted more generous conditions to its employees than SPC Ardmona, including more than twice the redundancy pay, 10 days a year paid leave for union delegates for training, and even a dust allowance.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/cadbury-workers-get-sweeter-deal-than-spc-counterparts-20140207-327ee.html#ixzz2sg7T6acQ

  321. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 8, 2014 10:36 am

    Mondelez’s new Suttontown production agreement struck with the union United Voice stipulates that employees at its Mount Gambier plant can cash out their accrued sick leave in some circumstances

    I could be wrong but wasn’t cashing out leave (annual, long service, sick) one of the things you could do under the dastardly Workchoices?? If so it appears that Unions have changed their minds.

  322. February 8, 2014 11:35 am

    If there is a plant in Mt Gambier, it is tiny.

  323. February 8, 2014 11:39 am

    I’m not sure why being able to cash in sick leave is seen as some heinously overgenerous ‘perk’.
    I don’t think it’s as uncommon as it’s being made to appear.

  324. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 8, 2014 11:43 am

    Well toilet from what i have read is was one of the evil things that Worckchoices allowed you to do.

    Before Workchoices was cashing out leave legal??

  325. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 8, 2014 7:43 pm

    Before Workchoices was cashing out leave legal?

    Perhaps your memory was playing tricks? I do recall there was a clause in workchoices allowing employees to “trade” leave etc for more money. This is different from cashing in leave on a one off basis. The leave is there next year, to that with if you wish. The problem with trading in leave for a extra money is, once you have traded it, it is gone. You only get it back if the employer agrees to it. Good luck with that. Obviously, this is lose situation for the employee in the long term, for some short term, near sited gain.

  326. public toilet permalink
    February 8, 2014 10:51 pm

    What JJ said.

  327. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 8, 2014 10:56 pm

    What did JJ say??

  328. February 9, 2014 1:10 am

    Are you taking the piss?

    No wonder you’re endangered by Russian Scientists! (meant respectfully) 😯

  329. TB Queensland permalink
    February 9, 2014 9:37 am

    A shop assistant here earns $10 a day (if they’re lucky, and can speak three languages)..</i.

    We should talk about lowering ALL wages and salaries in Australia …

    After we have the discussion about cost of living here … as opposed to third world and developing countries … if our wages were the same as Asia … would the competition help them or the Robber Barons?

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Before Workchoices was cashing out leave legal??

    Yes … in some organisations … James Hardie was one … untaken sick leave was paid out on termination for anyone on a wage … salaried staff didn’t get it – that’s how I know … 😉

  330. TB Queensland permalink
    February 9, 2014 9:41 am

    Re: leave

    Before WC ( 😆 ) days in lieu were not allowed under most awards … had to be paid penalty rates … used to piss me off … much preferred time instead of $ … and so did many of my troops when I was a manager …

    In my NSCA days we used to take time in lieu (but easier to do as consultants) …

  331. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 9, 2014 10:16 am

    “I do recall there was a clause in workchoices allowing employees to “trade” leave etc for more money. This is different from cashing in leave on a one off basis.

    I am not sure what the difference is and anyway you are only using your memory.

    Where i work annual leave was never allowed to be cashed out until recently. Unions were dead against it. Now if it gets to a certain level you can cash out 10 days leave.

    It looks like after campaigning against this sort of thing under Workchoices, Unions have changed their minds.

  332. February 9, 2014 10:18 am

    `time-in-lieu` is a fringe argument nowadays,

    as l was saying previously to the blubbering imbecile,

    regarding `wait-staff`, as told to me by somebody who has `actually` done the job,

    they often get 3-hour shifts, 11am-2pm, to help set-up cafe, and work thru the `lunch`rush, 3-days per week,

    even if blubbers is outraged at $50 bucks an hour, they would only earn $150/day, which is $450/week,

    loo-time is totally useless/unwanted.

  333. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 9, 2014 10:47 am

    I am not sure what the difference is and anyway you are only using your memory.

    The difference is, you can “cash in” leave on a one of basis, and, if you want, do the same next year with your leave if you so wish. From memory (and, you seem to be going on the same, unless you have a link otherwise) the problem people had with workchoices was the ability for contracts to remove leave and replace it either with more money or something (anything) else. This would have the effect of permanently removing that leave from future contracts. It is the slippery slope argument. As the next time you have a contract to negotiate, there is no leave there, just a rate of pay, which can be slowly reduced down. until effectively you are back where you started, but without any leave.

    From memory

    Also, from memory, I had heard of arrangements pre-workcoices that did allow time-in-lieu for wage earners, just that it wasn’t very wide spread.

  334. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 9, 2014 11:16 am

    “This would have the effect of permanently removing that leave from future contracts.

    That describes a casual.

  335. TB Queensland permalink
    February 9, 2014 11:51 am

    In the godd ol’s USA the first year of permananent work is one week … the next year two and then three and then four …

    And we’d all like to work in the USA wouldn’t we?

  336. TB Queensland permalink
    February 9, 2014 11:57 am

    Casuals are generally employed by the hour (ie an hours notice) and the laoading (was 19% in my day) but I think Wally referred to 25% loading in lieu of annual leave, sick pay, LSL etc …

    One of my g/sons has just been employed by a Westfield centre to pick up all your shite at night after you’ve all gone home … he gets a massive $21 an hour working from 3am to 6am – on call … and its only a 25 minute bike ride from home … he’s over 18 but no driving licence … maybe he’ll listen to everybody now we can’t/won’t run him to work!

    I assume that includes a 30% loading for night shift …

  337. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 9, 2014 11:57 am

    Yes and i remember telling an American we actually get a pay increase (17.5%) when we go on holidays. he could not believe it.

  338. TB Queensland permalink
    February 9, 2014 11:58 am

    Strewth! In the godd ol’s USA the first year of permananent work is one week

    Let me try again …

    In the good ol’ USA the first year of permananent work is one week week’s vacation … etc

  339. TB Queensland permalink
    February 9, 2014 12:01 pm

    Yes and i remember telling an American we actually get a pay increase (17.5%)

    And the “history” of that, Kneel is that it was originally awarded to Parliamentarians and their staf … the unions believed that their members were entitled to the same … funny, hey?

    Don’t you get a loading? Or is it included in an over award salary package?

    Not everyone gets 17.5% …

  340. February 9, 2014 12:30 pm

    Something from the church of teabag,

  341. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 9, 2014 12:33 pm

    That describes a casual.

    So you can see then why it was not welcomed very well.

  342. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 9, 2014 12:43 pm

    Yes and i remember telling an American we actually get a pay

    That statement alone is probably enough to shock many Americans, the land where corporations factor Government welfare into their employees wages

  343. February 9, 2014 12:44 pm

    LandLine just had Barnaby on, talking about drought ridden farmer, who tried to send his cattle to market/slaughter, as there is no food/water because the drought.

    Farmer was told the cattles condition was `too-poor` for transporting. When the truck had departed, the farmer had to get his rifle, and shoot his cattle. Then he shot himself.

    It will now get interesting, to see Barney tackle Mr-Rabbit for `rural`relief, as droughts are extreme weather events, and we all know Mr-Rabbit denies the existence of extreme weather events, Mr-Rabbit `knows` they are`crap` and Mr-Rabbit will be highly resistant to delivering `aid` to an `imaginary-disaster` caused by `fictitious-warmist-propaganda`.

    Let the battle of the half-wits begin.

  344. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 9, 2014 12:45 pm

    “So you can see then why it was not welcomed very well.

    Sure, but it isn’t exactly a brand new innovation.

  345. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 9, 2014 12:57 pm

    “and we all know Mr-Rabbit denies the existence of extreme weather events, Mr-Rabbit `knows` they are`crap

    This comment is so stupid it does not deserve a comment but i will anyway.

    We live in Australia and drought is common.

    You are saying we are having our current drought because of AGW. How deceitful.

  346. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 9, 2014 12:58 pm

    but it isn’t exactly a brand new innovation.

    Subtly moving permanent staff onto what amounts to casual employment isn’t exactly a brand new innovation? It might not be a new idea, but I don’t think it was possible before workchoices. I’m sure the IPA have dreamed of it for years.

  347. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 9, 2014 1:01 pm

    as there is no food/water because the drought.

    This is just what happens in Australia. Just like fires. The fact that they are becoming more extreme and regular is just that the weather is becoming more Australian

  348. February 9, 2014 1:07 pm

    ”””’the weather is becoming more Australian””””

    LOL JJ,
    we wouldn`t want Mr-Rabbit to declare our weather `un-australian` 🙂

  349. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 9, 2014 1:10 pm

    “The fact that they are becoming more extreme and regular

    This is what you want to believe whether it is true or not.

  350. February 9, 2014 1:30 pm

    ”””’This is what you want to believe whether it is true or not.””’

    https://theguttertrash.com/co2-and-you-iv/

  351. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 9, 2014 1:42 pm

    Yes, how did Workchoices morph into AGW?? That’s right, Barneys Teabag decided to make a low accusation about Tony Abbott at 12.44PM.

    I think ALP supporters get thrills when they abuse people with different beliefs

  352. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 9, 2014 1:58 pm

    Yes, lets stick to highlighting Tony Abbotts lies regarding workchoices and his false claim about union awards.. Bashing up idiocy about AGW denial should be kept to the link you provided earlier Barneys Teabag for those inclined.

  353. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 9, 2014 2:07 pm

    “and his false claim about union awards.”

    What false claim??

  354. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 9, 2014 2:12 pm

    It might not be a new idea, but I don’t think it was possible before workchoices. I’m sure the IPA have dreamed of it for years.

    I think most people will know of people in every workplace that try to minimise the annual leave they take, hoarding it, preferring to cash it out when they leave. That’s been around for ever. Now those types have an opportunity to cash it out when they want/need the money.

  355. egg permalink
    February 9, 2014 2:25 pm

    Did someone mention the weather?

  356. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 9, 2014 2:29 pm

    Exactly. On a thread about Workchoices why did Barneys Teabag get up and say that Tony Abbott was responsible for the drought and for the guy who committed suicide??

  357. egg permalink
    February 9, 2014 3:04 pm

    dunno

  358. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 9, 2014 3:34 pm

    This is what Barneys teabag said on a Workchoices post

    Farmer was told the cattles condition was `too-poor` for transporting. When the truck had departed, the farmer had to get his rifle, and shoot his cattle. Then he shot himself.

    It will now get interesting, to see Barney tackle Mr-Rabbit for `rural`relief, as droughts are extreme weather events, and we all know Mr-Rabbit denies the existence of extreme weather events, Mr-Rabbit `knows` they are`crap` and Mr-Rabbit will be highly resistant to delivering `aid` to an `imaginary-disaster` caused by `fictitious-warmist-propaganda`.

    The drought did not start 5 months ago when Abbot was elected but started when Gillard/Rudd was in power.

    Beats me why Abbott is responsible for this.

  359. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 9, 2014 3:51 pm

    say that Tony Abbott was responsible for the drought and for the guy who committed suicide?

    Who said that?

  360. February 9, 2014 4:11 pm

    ”””””””most people will know of people in every workplace that try to minimise the annual leave they take, hoarding it,”””””””

    The lowest paid `hoard` their holidays, as they can`t `actually` afford to pay rent/mortgage `and` actually `have` a holiday somewhere.

    .

    ”””preferring to cash it out when they leave.””””’

    Said like there is an actual `choice` for everybody.

    #Omitting things can make ya`sound like a fundy-teabag too.

  361. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 9, 2014 4:18 pm

    “Who said that?”

    I shouldn’t need to repost but here it is again. posted at 12.44PM

    “Farmer was told the cattles condition was `too-poor` for transporting. When the truck had departed, the farmer had to get his rifle, and shoot his cattle. Then he shot himself.

    It will now get interesting, to see Barney tackle Mr-Rabbit for `rural`relief, as droughts are extreme weather events, and we all know Mr-Rabbit denies the existence of extreme weather events, Mr-Rabbit `knows` they are`crap` and Mr-Rabbit will be highly resistant to delivering `aid` to an `imaginary-disaster` caused by `fictitious-warmist-propaganda`”

    Do i need to be more clear??

  362. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 9, 2014 4:25 pm

    Shorten and a range of hacks who have manipulated themselves into parliament will be crapping themselves about this.

    There are plenty in the ALP who think the union affiliation has outlived its usefulness, and maybe a Royal Commission will help bring about a divorce.

    Attorney-General George Brandis says a Royal Commission into trade unions will tackle the “systemic”, “ingrained” corruption in the labour movement.

    And he has accused federal opposition leader Bill Shorten, a former trade union leader, of opposing a Royal Commission because he was the “nominee of the trade union movement”.

    Senator Brandis confirmed on Sunday the announcement of a wide-ranging judicial inquiry was imminent, declaring it would be “irresponsible for the government not to respond in an appropriate way” to public concerns.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/royal-commission-into-union-corruption-confirmed-20140209-329dr.html#ixzz2sncQuygh

  363. egg permalink
    February 9, 2014 4:29 pm

    ‘It will now get interesting, to see Barney tackle Mr-Rabbit for `rural`relief, as droughts are extreme weather events, and we all know Mr-Rabbit denies the existence of extreme weather events, Mr-Rabbit `knows` they are`crap` and Mr-Rabbit will be highly resistant to delivering `aid` to an `imaginary-disaster` caused by `fictitious-warmist-propaganda`.

    Drought relief will be available to the farmers and graziers, as it always has been. This is no imaginary disaster, as I live round about and understand the heart break of my neighbours.

    Abbott won’t mention AGW or global warming, he knows the ‘science is crap’, nevertheless this drought is unusual because its ENSO neutral.

  364. February 9, 2014 5:13 pm

    You`re a fcuking imbecile kneel.

    You have continually quoted me wrong, more than twice.

    ++++++++++++++++++++

    LANDLINE JUST HAD Barnaby on, TALKING about drought ridden farmer, who tried to send his cattle to market/slaughter, as there is no food/water because the drought.

    Farmer was told the cattles condition was `too-poor` for transporting. When the truck had departed, the farmer had to get his rifle, and shoot his cattle. Then he shot himself.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    ***********************************

    It will now get interesting, to see Barney tackle Mr-Rabbit for `rural`relief, as droughts are extreme weather events, and we all know Mr-Rabbit denies the existence of extreme weather events, Mr-Rabbit `knows` they are`crap` and Mr-Rabbit will be highly resistant to delivering `aid` to an `imaginary-disaster` caused by `fictitious-warmist-propaganda`.

    Let the battle of the half-wits begin.

    ************************************

    Between **** lines is me.

    Between ++++ lines is barnaby joyce on Landline.

  365. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 9, 2014 5:45 pm

    I shouldn’t need to repost but here it is again.

    You can repost that all you want, it still won’t make it say what you seem to think it did

    will be crapping themselves about this.

    I wouldn’t be too sure. Last time they did this, they found more problems with the companies than with the Unions.

    o respond in an appropriate way” to public concerns.

    Where are these ‘concerns’? There are issues uncovered by investigations, that include certain Union members along with others. I haven’t seen any “public concerns” except those made by Liberals

  366. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 9, 2014 7:17 pm


    “Labor is asking the government to set up a police-led taskforce to deal with these issues. We believe a $100 million-plus Royal Commission is a political stunt that doesn’t do anything to assist with law and order,’’ Mr Shorten said. ‘‘This is a job for police, not politicians.”

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/royal-commission-into-union-corruption-confirmed-20140209-329dr.html#ixzz2soJbMCBl

    What is wrong with this proposal?

    $100 million-plus for a political witch unt

    $25 million to save jobs.

    It is clear where the Liberals priorities lie. And it isn’t with the public.

  367. egg permalink
    February 9, 2014 7:31 pm

    Destroying the political wing of the Labor Party is a priority for the new government.

  368. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 9, 2014 7:32 pm

    Union behaviour in building and construction is a disgrace, the 2004 Royal Commission had plenty of evidence of this.

    The ALP then dismantled the ABCC that had started to restore lawful and ethical behaviour in the industry. A Royal Commission may put the pressure on the ALP to allow this legitimate body to be restored.

    Then we have the HSU and all the rip offs of lowly paid hospital workers.

    CFMEU has (alleged) links to criminals, and this has been known for some time, it was first reported during a union turf war involving that union and the AWU – a few years ago.

    The police have had their chance to investigate. It’s time for a fundamental investigation and if some corrupt employers get caught up, that’s a great outcome too.

  369. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 9, 2014 7:34 pm

    …actually the last one started in 2001, so we’re over due for another one.

  370. February 9, 2014 7:46 pm

    Still doin`ya Fundy-Teabag routine l see,

    ”””’Union behaviour in building and construction is a disgrace,”””

    What about employer/company`s.?

    ”””the ABCC that had started to restore lawful and ethical behaviour””’

    By actually `nabbing` corrupt employers, not unions.

    #Fundy Teabags have trouble with `full` truth.

  371. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 9, 2014 8:11 pm

    Fine, I’ve already said – “if some corrupt employers get caught up, that’s a great outcome too”

    So I’m not sure what your point is…other than demonstrating that you’re a dill.

  372. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 9, 2014 8:23 pm

    fot tb/toilet
    Are you buying what uncle rupert’s demanding of you?
    http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/computers/blogs/gadgets-on-the-go/hbo-screws-australia-over-game-of-thrones-20140203-31w3c.html

    Destroying the political wing of the Labor Party is a priority for the new government.

    And how about having a gaze at the very secret political wing of the libs?
    The IPA has infiltrated every aspect of the australian media, their donors are kept secret, so we don’t know who is paying for influence. There has been talk of phillip morris, murdoch, rinehart and others all hiding behind this outfit. The IPA is a ‘charitable’ organisation for taxation purposes, though for the life of me I cannot see how peddling radical right wing propaganda for their paymasters, pretending that the rubbish they saturate us with is ‘academic’ is worthy of any charity status. It’s about time there was some transparency in the donorship of the IPA.

  373. TB Queensland permalink
    February 9, 2014 8:32 pm

    Attorney-General George Brandis says a Royal Commission into trade unions will tackle the “systemic”, “ingrained” corruption in the labour movement.</i.

    GUFFAW!

    We need a Royal Commission into fkn Brandis!

    ====================================

    KL, thanks will check it out (we all know 'tis happenening!)

    And always noice to see ya on deck!

  374. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 9, 2014 8:38 pm

    Union behaviour in building and construction is a disgrace, the 2004 Royal Commission had plenty of evidence of this.

    But anything thy found was dwarfed by the crimes of the corporations. I think they have not allowed corporations to be looked at this time in their terms of reference. This will give Labor plenty of ammunition about it being the political witch hunt it obviously is. It will also be interesting what reflection the outcome of cases such as Thomson, Slipper and Gillard will do to influence voters perceptions of the Liberals and their preponderance for these political witch hunts

    The ALP then dismantled the ABCC that had started to restore lawful and ethical behaviour in the industry.

    The ABCC did nothing to stop corruption. They did plenty to prevent uinion having access to sites for safety concerns, and allowing several near miss accidents that could have been avoided had the access been granted. Much of these allegations date back to the time the ABCC was in operation. They didn’t do anything to stop the corruption that began in the corporate offices

  375. egg permalink
    February 9, 2014 8:39 pm

    ‘The IPA has infiltrated every aspect of the australian media, their donors are kept secret, so we don’t know who is paying for influence.’

    You’ll need to flesh this out a bit.

  376. TB Queensland permalink
    February 9, 2014 8:41 pm

    And, confirmed our understanding, KL, what a bunch of turkeys HBO and Foxtel are … the music industry accepted the change and is now benefitting from it … TV series and films are just so far behind the real world of consumer technology … and I’ve watched S3 and STILL waiting to buy the BD disks … guilt absolutely not … stupid is as stupid does …

    Build a dam in the river and stop me and my neighbours water – then don’t whinge if your dam blows up one night … 🙄

    Why Aussies are the biggests media pirates in the world … treat us right and we’ll treat you right …

    I once complained to a camera house in the USA ’cause I couldn’t buy from them (great prices) – the EU could, the Poms could the Kanuks could … and I went to town on how we had supported them militarily over half a century and the others hadn’t – they now ship to Oz!

  377. TB Queensland permalink
    February 9, 2014 8:44 pm

    You’ll need to flesh this out a bit.

    Big business and that includes the Catholic Church supports the Liberal Party!

    How fkn dumb are you egg?
    They want the unions gone so that their Achilles Heel – the Australian Labor Party will implode!

    That means a virtual political monopoly!

    Business will dictate wages and conditions and we will degenerate into a non supported 51st state of America!

    FFS! Grow up ..

  378. February 9, 2014 8:47 pm

    ”””’is ‘academic’ is worthy of any charity status.”””’

    the average k9 squeezes out their bowels on my lawn that are more `academic`, and its a fcuking disgrace if the tax-system benefits them, closer to kkk

  379. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 9, 2014 8:47 pm

    The ABCC did nothing to stop corruption.

    Really, how do you know?

  380. egg permalink
    February 9, 2014 8:53 pm

    ‘How fkn dumb are you egg?’

    Is that a rhetorical question?

  381. TB Queensland permalink
    February 9, 2014 8:53 pm

    the average k9 squeezes out their bowels on my lawn that are more `academic`, and its a fcuking disgrace if the tax-system benefits them, closer to kkk

    Sorry. Tbag … what deos that mean?

  382. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 9, 2014 8:57 pm

    Really, how do you know?

    Because I have seen no evidence of it. You are free to enlighten me with some

  383. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 9, 2014 9:00 pm

    they now ship to Oz!

    Could you give HBO a call for all us GOT fans thanks TB? You seem to get outcomes

  384. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 9, 2014 9:00 pm
  385. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 9, 2014 9:02 pm

    So, it’s OK to witch hunt unions, but bot OK to find out just what happens on or Navy vessels. We just gotta trust a guy like Morrison

    Immigration Minister Scott Morrison has accused Labor of undermining ”the honour” of Defence personnel by calling for an independent inquiry into claims asylum seekers were deliberately burnt by navy personnel.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/morrison-denies-inquiry-into-burns-allegations-20140208-328lf.html#ixzz2sok16S8P

  386. TB Queensland permalink
    February 9, 2014 9:35 pm

    Could you give HBO a call for all us GOT fans thanks TB? You seem to get outcomes

    I have, JJ, one of thousands I believe!

    Still there is always … Thanks you Mr HBO/Foxtel – who owns Fuxtel again?

    http://thepiratebay.se/language

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    So, it’s OK to witch hunt unions, but bot OK to find out just what happens on or Navy vessels. We just gotta trust a guy like Morrison </i.

    Having served (involuntarily – my son voluntarily) I can assure you there is no fault with the RAN … the fault is with the government using (abusing) one of Australia's most professional assets …

    And the posturing of the "Defend Minister" WTF is he? is just that

  387. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 9, 2014 9:50 pm

    While so many ALP barrackers are lamenting possible loss of SPC in food production, they probably should do a little research on Saizeriya and the shocking industrial disputation they suffered.

    Saizeriya had planned to open 6 or 7 food processing plants, but gave up after the union behaviour in building the first.

    It wasn’t the finance, or the market, or management that caused the loss of a thousand jobs and significant investment – it was a union turf war.

  388. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 9, 2014 9:52 pm

    ” the fault is with the government using (abusing) one of Australia’s most professional assets

    Well it may be your opinion that Abbott is abusing the Navy but it is not mine. I am not in the Navy but i think i would prefer doing what they are doing now than under Rudd/Gillard. Under the previous govt our Navy was used as a ferry service.

    If what Abbott is doing works the Navy will not be needed again.

  389. February 9, 2014 9:56 pm

    ”””””That means a virtual political monopoly!”””””””””

    Actually it funny you said that TB, we were discussing a similar theme around the house. We hypothetically wondered what would happen if the ALP could only afford to run for say 40-seats in 2016, meaning they don`t run for 110, leaving the nation stuck with Mr-Rabbit for another term. A so-called democracy, with no `real` ability/option to actually change the Govt.

  390. egg permalink
    February 9, 2014 10:00 pm

    7.30 you are just making shit up.

  391. February 9, 2014 10:06 pm

    what the average k9 squeezes out of their bowels on my lawn that are more `academic`, #ipa

    (sorry TB, missed that one)

  392. February 9, 2014 10:22 pm

    TB, it is a disgrace the ipa Lobby can get away with hiding behind terms such as, academic, think-tank, research, charity, intellectual, and hide funding sources, and obtain benefits from the tax-system.

  393. February 9, 2014 10:32 pm

    1-We hypothetically wondered

    do you comprehend the line above dumpty.?

  394. February 10, 2014 12:04 pm

    “Are you buying what uncle rupert’s demanding of you?”

    Negative!

    There are relatively simple ways of keeping Rupert’s hand out of my pocket. Ways which Rupert is virtually powerless to impede, although I imagine he’s exerting undue influence on US government behind the scenes to try & prevent people ‘sharing’ things.

    Luckily, Rupert can’t choke the entire internet until it obeys his whims.

    I must say, that decision to not fast track GoT S4 to mediums other than Foxtardtel is utterly counterproductive to stopping ‘pirac’. How fucking stupid are the decision makers! 😯

  395. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 10, 2014 12:30 pm

    I know tb, murdoch will drive up piracy in australia. He thinks he can just force everyone to buy from him. He’ll get his way if the top secret TPPA goes through as there is rumoured to be predatory corporate copyright protection in it and there doesn’t seem to be anyone too concerned about it, when people should be very worried [of course you won’t hear of it in any of his media]. These corporations are just parasites.

    http://www.canberratimes.com.au/comment/trans-pacific-partnership-agreement-favours-foreign-investors-over-citizens-rights-20140103-309nb.html

  396. TB Queensland permalink
    February 10, 2014 1:51 pm

    Media ownership is to the 21st what castles were in the 15th century – a place where “knights” holed up so that they had a protected base from which to raid the local population and rape steal and pillage …

    Nothing changes … only the means … keep ’em poor, ill-informed, entertained* and frightened …

    *When will someone speak out about the brutality on my TV called UFC? They banned boxing and now have this crud … at least boxing had rules!

    If you want find the real source for the concept of the “coward punch” look no further than Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC). Grog only fuels the fools …

  397. TB Queensland permalink
    February 10, 2014 1:55 pm

    Well it may be your opinion that Abbott is abusing the Navy but it is not mine.

    Surprise No 1

    I am not in the Navy but i think i would prefer doing what they are doing now

    Surprise No2 …

    You wouldn’t have a fkn clue!

    Sailors and soldiers aren’t robots and they also aren’t stupid … surprisingly 99.9% understand politics and generally get pissed off with most politicians

    than under Rudd/Gillard. Under the previous govt our Navy was used as a ferry service.

    Surprise No 3 …

    but not to attack civilians … mmmmm

  398. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 10, 2014 2:03 pm

    You wouldn’t have a fkn clue!

    And i doubt you would also.

  399. February 10, 2014 2:07 pm

    Surprise No 4…

    “And i doubt you would also.” 🙄

  400. February 10, 2014 2:20 pm

    I must respectfully disagree about the UFC, TB.

    The combatants are highly trained martial artists, pitting skill sets, conditioning & mental discipline against each other. They are generally very evenly matched & the contest becomes tactical.
    There are no ‘coward punches’ in the UFC, as the referee very clearly asks each combatant if they are ‘ready’ prior to commencement of the round.
    Now, dickheads trying to emulate the UFC on the street, well I think that also comes down to an issue of self control & responsibility. The UFC didn’t initiate angry fuckheads king hitting others, I’m quite sure that type of thing has been going on since man learned to make a fist.

    I thoroughly enjoy watching some UFC bouts. I think cage fighting is misunderstood…and when people see the blood and violence they don’t realise that there are actually very strict rules governing it.

    I have no conflict of ideals in so far as preferring pacifism & enjoying such things at the same time. The participants are willing, well paid even…and I can comprehend the contest because I have trained for years (not for a few now) at Shotokan Karate. I contend that most martial artists are not thugs at all.
    Also, there is the intriguing (to me) aspect of different styles matching up against each other…jiu jitsu, wrestling, kickboxing & more traditional breeds of karate, to name a few.

    The only thing I don’t like about UFC is the increasingly shiny marketing ploys which are coming with it…but that’s not too different to any major sporting code.

  401. February 10, 2014 2:23 pm

    ” Grog only fuels the fools …”

    This I agree with…so wouldn’t a sensible approach be to demonise alcohol & leave the UFC alone. (ain’t gonna happen)

    God judgement begins at home with decent parenting & a sense of personal responsibility.

  402. February 10, 2014 2:27 pm

    * haha…”good” judgement…

    Y’all know I’d NEVER capitalise god.

  403. egg permalink
    February 10, 2014 2:28 pm

    ‘so wouldn’t a sensible approach be to demonise alcohol’

    Good luck with that.

  404. February 10, 2014 2:52 pm

    I’m not in favour of prohibition, just making a point.

  405. TB Queensland permalink
    February 10, 2014 2:54 pm

    The combatants are highly trained martial artists, pitting skill sets, conditioning & mental discipline against each other. They are generally very evenly matched & the contest becomes tactical.

    Sounds like boxing … and that was my point … boxing is banned from TV … the other point I was making was not that the UFC fighters “coward punch” (nor do boxers) … but the twits who watch it and don’t have the “skills” are cowards who just want to “experience” what it feels like to fell some innocent …

    You don’t get the boxing/UFC hypocrisy?

    Respectfully yours …

    … you do have karate training after all 😉

  406. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 10, 2014 2:59 pm

    Marshall arts and marital arts…. It should all be banned!

  407. February 10, 2014 3:06 pm

    Yes, I do get the hypocrisy, TB.

    I think boxing has tarnished its own image over the years by too often seeming to have rigged outcomes.

    For the most part, the UFC is brutally ‘real’. The cauliflower ears, broken limbs, eyes rolling back in sockets & facial lacerations aren’t make up. Impossible to ‘fake’ such things.

    As for boxing being banned, but UFC not, well I don’t know why that would be. Certainly a double standard. I imagine if enough confected outrage was drummed up by a moralising majority then UFC would be banned too. Thankfully, there is always the internet.

    I am a pacifist. I loathe people who can’t control their emotions & lash out violently. I honestly believe prolonged martial arts training would diminish that sort of behaviour in most people, not exacerbate it.
    I’ve never felt like going out & clobbering people, but I’m confident enough in my own abilities to not fear becoming a helpless victim.

    So, I’m not sure how you’d prevent…”… but the twits who watch it and don’t have the “skills” are cowards who just want to “experience” what it feels like to fell some innocent … “.
    That kind of behaviour is reprehensible, but will be with us, UFC or not. Perhaps it should be R rated? but I’m not confident that such things have much impact.
    Some people are just predisposed to being hotheaded thugs with no moral code.

  408. February 10, 2014 3:08 pm

    And how has (repeatedly) being banned influenced you, YomM? 😉

  409. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 10, 2014 3:28 pm

    I regard myself as an expert in ‘marital art’

  410. public toilet permalink
    February 10, 2014 3:51 pm

    I’m gonna assume you mean marital aids.

  411. egg permalink
    February 10, 2014 3:52 pm

    The battle of the sexes.

  412. February 10, 2014 5:36 pm

    ””””””””’real source for the concept of the “coward punch” look no further than Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC).”””””””

    total nonsense TB,

    while l don`t particularly `like` ufc, they are trained, part of which is `discipline`, which the majority of those doing any form of fighting sport obey, and disapprove (and sometimes eject) those for acting outside the discipline,

    boxers lose their `license`,
    martial arts eject members that use their club for criminal behavior,

    the main problem is the retribution factor is missing within the system of so-called justice/policing, no judge, court, lawyer or cop has ever stopped those that want to be thugs, from being so,

    the only `thugs` l have ever seen change their ways, are the ones that bit off more than they can chew, and got their arses well and truly kicked

  413. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 10, 2014 5:50 pm

    Now Toyota is going. All Abbott’s fault, apparently.

  414. Walrus permalink
    February 10, 2014 6:04 pm

    Toyota puts out its trash on the same day media coverage is dedicated to our own royalty the Princess of the Bogans.

  415. Walrus permalink
    February 10, 2014 6:12 pm

    Abbott has announced the Royal Commision terms of reference…………
    ************************************************************************
    “I will be recommending to the Governor-General, Her Excellency Ms Quentin Bryce AC CVO, the establishment of a Royal Commission to inquire into alleged financial irregularities associated with the affairs of trade unions.”
    ************************************************************************

    I bet Bill Shorten has jumped on the phone to his mother in law shouting

    “Whatever you do……………………….dont open the fucking front door”

  416. February 10, 2014 6:19 pm

    ”””Toyota puts out its trash””’

    Confirmed. But no detail. Jobs.? States.?

  417. February 10, 2014 6:30 pm

    Whatever you do…….dont open the fucking front door `:lol:

    prediction-1,
    mr-rabbit will softcock the terms of reference to remain `only` focused on teh-unions,

    prediction-2,
    shortman will just `oppose` and be the anti-rabbit, not bright enough to demand investigation terms of reference follow `all` paths to Govt and corporate crime,

    #GO-Xenophon

  418. February 10, 2014 6:37 pm

    #Toyota

    Going by end 2017.
    Located Altona Vic. ‘ ‘ ‘ Jobs.?

  419. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 10, 2014 6:51 pm

    Looks like it can go after anyone involved:

    The terms of reference specifically mention the Australian Workers’ Union, the Construction Forestry Mining and Energy Union, the Electrical Trades Union, the Health Services Union and the Transport Workers Union.

    The commission can also examine any other person, association or organisation against whom credible allegations of misconduct are made.

    Employment minister Eric Abetz warned the commission was “a sword that will cut both ways” and employers would also draw the commissioner’s scrutiny.”

  420. egg permalink
    February 10, 2014 7:00 pm

    Prediction 1

    The terms of reference will follow the money trail and, with industry in full support, crush Labor’s industrial wing. This RC will not have a detrimental impact on good honest hard working unions. Jools boyfriend might even get a cameo part.

    Prediction 2

    Bill’s future is uncertain.

  421. February 10, 2014 7:02 pm

    lf that`s the case Splatters, that`s good, tho l do notice missing State and Federal Depts and Ministers. The `sword` should be `weilded` everywhere.

    #Go-Xenophon

  422. February 10, 2014 7:07 pm

    haha, channel-7 got twice as many viewers with `inxs` than the clowns running `corby` last night ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ sbs1

  423. egg permalink
    February 10, 2014 7:16 pm

    ‘It will investigate the financial management of such entities, the adequacy of existing laws, accountability of officers to their members, and whether any laws have been breached.

    ‘It will also examine “the circumstances in which funds are sought from any third parties and paid to such entities” and “any bribes, secret commissions or other unlawful payments or benefits arising from contracts, arrangements or understandings between registered employee associations or their officers and any other party”.

    Guardian

  424. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 10, 2014 7:29 pm

    The RC will be good for Labor. It may see the end of their dud leader, Shorten, and save the ALP the trouble of doing so via their complicated leadership election rules.

  425. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 10, 2014 7:50 pm

    No it’s “marital art”, and I’m a profligate artist.

  426. TB Queensland permalink
    February 10, 2014 8:13 pm

    ””””””””’real source for the concept of the “coward punch” look no further than Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC).”””””””

    TeaB … I think you missed my point )as did Ser T initially) … I wan’t talking about the UFC “sportspeople” ( 🙄 ) … but a certain type of follower …

    And it for your benefit and Ser T’s … the odd street biff HAS changed … 30 years ago if you were on the ground the other bloke would offer his hand and pull you up … then you’d have a beer … these days they end up in an ambulance – with the paras being pelted with beer bottles …

  427. February 10, 2014 8:20 pm

    I think that’s more of a contemporary societal issue, than UFC influenced, TB.

    As I said before…good judgement begins at home with decent parenting & a sense of personal responsibility.

  428. February 10, 2014 8:22 pm

    I never missed the point, TB. I thought I expanded upon it & described why I disagree. 🙂

    I knew you weren’t talking about the ‘athletes’.

  429. Tony permalink
    February 10, 2014 8:37 pm

    “Now Toyota is going. All Abbott’s fault, apparently.”

    Yes, he goaded them to leave.

    #don’tgoadmebro

  430. February 10, 2014 8:38 pm

    if the ufc viewers start street-fights/king-hit,

    racing viewers engage in torturing kittens,

    motorsports viewers/fans usually speed,

    #generalities

    the last bloke busted for the `king-hit` actually did some form of martial-arts,
    the exception, not the rule,

  431. TB Queensland permalink
    February 10, 2014 8:47 pm

    “””””””the exception, not the rule,””””””””

    … was it you that mentioned “generalities?

  432. February 10, 2014 9:54 pm

    You`re being cute.

    King-hitting `Thugs`, muggers of elderly, poofter-bashers, and other assorted cowards were around long before ufc, fight-club, thriller-in-manilla, or rumble-in-da-jungle.

    l say again, the `local` thugs have never been stopped by, cops, courts, judges and lawyers. They `have` been stopped, unexpectedly receiving a dose of their `own` medicine.

    (take that how you want)

  433. February 10, 2014 9:58 pm

    l am reasonably sure, that in your own long life, with your training, you have come across certain types of folks that needed to be `sorted`. Once `sorted` they have then changed their ways significantly.

  434. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 10, 2014 10:24 pm

    I don’t blame Toyota for leaving. Management asked the Unions if instead of shutting down for 3 weeks at Christmas could they only make it 10 days. The Unions refused to change.

    http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/toyotas-altona-plant-to-start-21day-shutdown-amid-survival-fears-20131217-2zj05.html

    “Workers at Toyota’s Altona plant will on Wednesday afternoon down tools for 21 days – the longest holiday shutdown at any of the car maker’s 54 plants across the globe.

    By comparison, the plant in Japan that Melbourne is competing against to build Toyota’s next Camry model will shut for only five days over New Year.”

  435. February 10, 2014 11:01 pm

    Peddling last years news, huh.?

    Old news, old ideas, and old slogans are the teabags `core` l suppose.

    And l suppose Aussie plebs should only get what China gives their plebs, but then if we went on the textile industry, now largely in Bangladesh, we too could buy `child`slaves for our sweat-shops too.

    l know it`s my wet-dream.

  436. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 10, 2014 11:06 pm

    What a useless comment.

    OK what is your solution to saving our car industry??

  437. February 10, 2014 11:17 pm

    You, particularly you, have no standing to tell `anybody` `ever` they made a ””useless-comment”.

    There is no `solution`, and no `saving` the auto-industry.

    lt has always been a `welfare`case, and had no hope of `ever` removing itself from the tax-payer nipple.

    lts just like Dumpty, but way fcukin`bigger.

  438. February 10, 2014 11:24 pm

    Actually Tea Kneel is quite useful in this film thread..he plays dumb and dumber…An astroturfing hadleyite who parrots the swill of goose stepping rhetorical nongs.

  439. February 10, 2014 11:38 pm

    ””’Yes, he goaded them to leave.””’#don’tgoadmebro””’

    He is very shrewd Scales`0sy.

    Mr-Rabbit has managed to turn his 4-year old, 2-letter slogan (no) into `actual` policy. While Shortman is totally stuffed just being the `anti-rabbit`.

  440. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 5:48 am

    I don’t blame Toyota for leaving.

    No, I blame the Government. This all happened with Joe Hockey slagging off Holden in Parliament. We always had a viable car industry with two players. Holden confirmed that before they were pushed out, and one car company is unsustainable. By forcing Holdens hand, the Liberals also forced Toyotas. Now, if the Government had said they would work with Holden, and review their subsidies at least, they would most probably still be here, along with Toyota. The buck stops at Tony. He will always be the one ultimately responsible for destroying our manufacturing base.

    What a difference an election makes. There will be no manufacturing under a Government I lead?

  441. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 5:58 am

    OK what is your solution to saving our car industry?

    Subsidize them so that they are able to compete on a more even footing with other countries that subsidize their industries either directly or through tariffs

  442. egg permalink
    February 11, 2014 7:34 am

    Essentially the high Australian dollar has made life difficult for all our exporters. The answer is not simple, but its certain the multinationals will continue to go offshore if they can’t make a profit here.

  443. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 8:10 am

    The answer is not simple

    Or could be as simple as subsidies for companies operating with external factors working against them.

  444. TB Queensland permalink
    February 11, 2014 8:28 am

    HIGHLY TRAINED COMBATANTS! LOL!

    A group of Sunni militants attending a “suicide bombing training class” in Iraq were killed yesterday when their instructor unwittingly conducted a demonstration with actual explosives, The New York Times reports.

    The militants belonged to a group known as the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. Twenty-two members of the group were killed and 15 more were wounded in the explosion.

  445. TB Queensland permalink
    February 11, 2014 8:31 am

    OK what is your solution to saving our car industry??

    You’ve been told a number of times by Wally, others and me …

    Make cars that people actually want to buy …

  446. Walrus permalink
    February 11, 2014 8:49 am

    “Make cars that people actually want to buy …”

    Yep

    But we cant say that about Toyota since they are making cars people want to buy. Its just that Australians dont buy them (the Yanks do) hence goes the business model.

    Seems JJ just want to throw $$$$$$$ at every single problematic industry. Its not as though this is a one off event. The car industry has been dying for years.

    Thank Dog its now dead and buried

  447. Walrus permalink
    February 11, 2014 8:54 am

    And besides Toyota workers just didn’t give a flying fuck about their jobs.

    And they certainly never feared losing their jobs because of the cosy redundancies

  448. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 8:55 am

    The car industry has been dying for years.

    Yes, since the early 80’s from memory. But, with Government assistance, it has survived. Until now.

    It is true though that, once Holden left, Toyota’s days were numbered.

    Thank Dog its now dead and buried

    And we know who killed it and dug the grave.

  449. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 11, 2014 8:57 am

    One thing in this is certain – if your union has been screwing your employer for years to get a sweetheart pay deal you should not expect he rest of the country to subsidise your privileged pay deal. You deserve no sympathy and the economy is better off without that business. There may be short term pain but that is the price of your cupidity and your union’s stupidity.

    If the unions had their way there would be no profitable businesses only subsidised sinecures in inefficient industries under the thumb of strutting thugs and their organised crime families. As with the Mafia, in Unionland it is the incestuous families, like the Ludwigs for example, who control things.

    The sooner these parasites are gone the sooner we can develop an efficient economy free of Unionland thuggery. That, of course, also entails dealing with the criminal monopolists and it also involves decent unions protecting workers from exploitation. But no matter how you slice it, it doesn’t include that significant sector of Unionland acting in partnership with greedy monopolists to extort the taxpayer. Nor does it include those unions who are now little more than business partners of organised crime gangs.

    Sadly the reach of organised crime in Unionland is such that there are stinking stool pigeons everywhere, even in this august place, pleading for the government too look away while the crooks get on with their thuggery and extortion. What sickens me most are the grotesque coprophages with their heads still stuck up Craig Thomson’s cavernous rectum feasting on his fetid feces.

  450. Walrus permalink
    February 11, 2014 9:01 am

    “And we know who killed it and dug the grave.”

    Yes……………..the AMWU and its members

    “…..Mr Yasuda sparked outrage when he claimed in the Australian Financial Review that absenteeism was as high as 30 per cent at the company’s Altona plant, particularly around long weekends.

    But Paul Difelice, regional secretary for the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union vehicle division, said the only time sick leave hit that figure was last Friday – the day after Australia Day, giving absent workers a four-day weekend………”

    http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/national/toyota-sickies-claim-sparks-fury/story-e6frea8c-1226261350967

    Unbelievable defence……………….”..oh it only got to 30% once.”

  451. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 9:05 am

    Really, you are trying to blame the Unions after the SPC fiasco?

    And the simple fact that Holden workers actually took a pay CUT just prior to Hockey pushing them out. You are really scrapping clutching at straws now.

  452. Tony permalink
    February 11, 2014 9:05 am

    The Toyota spokesperson cited Australia’s free-trade agreements with various Asian countries as one of a range of factors contributing to Toyota’s decision to cease manufacturing here.

    Guess where they build the Toyota Hi-Lux sold in Australia. “Thailand.

  453. egg permalink
    February 11, 2014 9:05 am

    ‘Or could be as simple as subsidies…’

    Its unsustainable over the long term because our dollar will remain strong.

  454. Walrus permalink
    February 11, 2014 9:06 am

    “The sooner these parasites are gone the sooner we can develop an efficient economy free of Unionland thuggery.”

    Absolutely.

    Most people have no problems with Unions and workers getting CPI and productivity increases. But they are not going to see their taxes wasted on feather bedding.

    The sooner the RC begins the better.

    And I have little doubt that Shorten will need to resign before its over.

    And thank Dog for that. Every time I see him on morning TV he makes me feel like taking a one way walk into the Tasman Sea.

    Fuck he’s depressing to watch

  455. Tony permalink
    February 11, 2014 9:07 am

    Link: http://www.dfat.gov.au/fta/tafta/

  456. egg permalink
    February 11, 2014 9:11 am

    ‘And I have little doubt that Shorten will need to resign before its over.’

    You’re on the money with that prediction.

    People’s choice …. AlboAlboAlbo

  457. Tony permalink
    February 11, 2014 9:13 am

    “And the simple fact that Holden workers actually took a pay CUT just prior to Hockey pushing them out.”

    Don’t think so.

    “Before the agreement can be finalised, employees at Holden’s Melbourne offices will also be asked to vote later this week. But, as the changes will not affect their working conditions, it is believed most will abstain.

    “If approved, the new agreement will see the cancellation of a three percent pay increase scheduled for November, but workers will escape a 10 percent cut proposed in the early stages of talks.”

  458. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 9:13 am

    The Toyota spokesperson cited Australia’s free-trade agreements

    These things will kill off more than just the manufacturing sector, especially if the TPP is included in the manner it is being leaked.

  459. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 9:29 am

    Why is there such a concerted campaign by Liberal supporters to get rid of Shorten?

  460. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 9:30 am

    And will there be a Royal commission into this kind of behaviour?

  461. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 11, 2014 9:44 am

    “Why is there such a concerted campaign by Liberal supporters to get rid of Shorten?”

    Pretty sure the Libs are praying Shorten stays. He is the puffy dissipated face of Unionland corruption. Pliberserk will be a much greater challenge when she finally takes power.

  462. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 11, 2014 9:46 am

    The usual way for Unionland types to “down tools” is by sucking Comanchero cock.

  463. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 9:50 am

    Pliberserk will be a much greater challenge when she finally takes power.

    Interesting, considering Labor is actually leading during the normal “honeymoon” period

  464. egg permalink
    February 11, 2014 9:56 am

    ‘Why is there such a concerted campaign by Liberal supporters to get rid of Shorten?’

    A strong Opposition leader, unconnected to unions, would be good for Labor and democracy.

  465. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 11, 2014 9:58 am

    Labor went backwars in Griffith when they should have increased their vote.

    Probably because Shorten has damaged himnself and Labor: business as usual in Unionland = CFMEU gives Labor $millions, backs Shorten and Shorten fights tooth and nail to stop an investigation into CFMEU criminality. Meanwhile Labor stooges get out the message to stop the investigation at all costs.

  466. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 11, 2014 10:06 am

    Here are some union factors that undermine manufacturing-

    • Agreements overburdened with process, that are management/HR intensive, agreements that have 80% of the volume detailing process, rather than entitlements
    • Union demarcations, many operators are prevented from undertaking basic maintenance on the equipment they operate
    • Union demarcations, limitations on the use to types of equipment due to union coverage (eg forklift operation limited by union membership rather than the necessary licences)
    • Unreliability of labour (IR) during shutdown, overhaul, expansion. Unions see these activities as a time of vulnerability of the employer, unions take action to advance their claims. The combination limits the willingness to invest, it puts time pressure on overhaul, and maintenance is delayed. Ultimately the plant degrades.

    The focus on high wages misses about 90% of the union action that undermines manufacturing. High wages would be happily accepted if Australia had a reputation for unstinting reliability, unfortunately we have quite the opposite reputation.

  467. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 10:09 am

  468. egg permalink
    February 11, 2014 10:12 am

    Tip Custard on Gallagher in 1981.

    ‘I got close to Norm in the hotel that night and was just about to explain the meaning of my legal document when one of his lieutenants intervened to tell me where I could shove my subpoena and began forcibly to assist me to do it.

    ‘As other officials joined in to help, I raced for the door and ran down the street as if my life ­depended on it. In fact my life did depend on it. Fortunately I was young and fit in those days and could outrun building union officials, especially when they had been drinking a beer, or six, as was the usual custom in the industry.’

  469. Walrus permalink
    February 11, 2014 10:12 am

    “And will there be a Royal commission into this kind of behaviour?”

    The terms include unscrupulous business practices.

    Plus ASIC also now has the power to investigate “phoenix” companies (they occur in the building industry) and prosecute directors who crash one company and then reopen as another new entity.

  470. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 10:22 am

    agreements that have 80% of the volume detailing process, rather than entitlements

    err, aren’t many processes directly related to entitlements? O perhaps you would prefer an ambiguous document, with plenty of wriggle room for the employer? And, I would challenge the 80% remark, purely on your history of exaggeration

  471. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 11, 2014 10:25 am

    Question all you wish, but the volume of applicable agreements are mainly about protecting union delegates and ensuring jobs for HR hacks.

  472. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 10:32 am

    but the volume of applicable agreements are mainly about protecting union delegates and ensuring jobs for HR hacks.

    You’re unsubstantiated opinion, which has been shown to be highly inaccurate on many occasions.

    I’m not saying every agreement is perfect, or without some unreasonable claims, but, by and large, most are well drafted and for the benefit of both employer and employee.

    My evidence is/was the strong and prosperous economy we have.had.

    Frightening to think where the loss of thousands of jobs like this will take us.

    Interesting to note that Labor got us through the GFC with an intact automotive industry. The Liberals managed to completely kill it within 6 months.

  473. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 11, 2014 10:38 am

    “My evidence is/was the strong and prosperous economy we have.had.”

    You mean the billions in subsidies paid by the majority so that a minority protected species can prosper and Union thugs can throw their weight around.

    “Frightening to think where the loss of thousands of jobs like this will take us.”

    Yes. Unions have a lot to answer for. It is unsustainable to rip off the public to subsidise extortionists. Eventually the music stops.

  474. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 10:45 am

    You mean the billions in subsidies paid by the majority

    Well, it wouldn’t be billions if it wasn’t for the mining subsidies or fossil fuel subsidies

    Yes. Unions have a lot to answer for.

    Except, Unions have been around far longer than the current war the Government is having on (some) subsidies

  475. Walrus permalink
    February 11, 2014 10:51 am

    “Well, it wouldn’t be billions if it wasn’t for the mining subsidies or fossil fuel subsidies”

    Funny how the Lunatic Left always manage to leave out renewable energy subsidies

  476. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 11, 2014 10:58 am

    “Well, it wouldn’t be billions if it wasn’t for the mining subsidies or fossil fuel subsidies”

    Wrong again – the car manufacturing industry alone has gobbled up billions over the years, $6 billion in one hit from Rudd.

    “Except, Unions have been around far longer”

    Yes. Been around stabbing the country in the back in war-time, been a haven for commos and crooks and been controlling the ALP, making sure it gives them power and privilege. If more unions actually supported the country we would all be better off. Instead we now have to endure pain while the sewer is cleared of its blockages and the stinking turds are flushed out.

  477. egg permalink
    February 11, 2014 11:07 am

    The RET has cost the Australian taxpayers $18.5 billion.

  478. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 11:20 am

    The RET has cost the Australian taxpayers $18.5 billion.

    Well, there have been investments of $18.5 billion anyway.

    Funny how the Lunatic Left always manage to leave out renewable energy subsidies

    Funny how others always manage to leave out Fossil Fuel and mining subsidies

  479. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 11, 2014 11:22 am

    Toyota workers saw Nissan leave, mitsubishi leave, Ford leave and Holden leave.

    Just before Christmas Toyota management asked the workers instead of shutting down for three weeks could we make it only 10 days over the Christmas break. The countries Toyota exports to do not celebrate Christmas.

    Toyota Unions/workers refused to change.

    Stuff em.

  480. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 11, 2014 11:23 am

    “Investments” – you mean like the money the ALP “invested” in Craig Thomson? They love protecting their corrupt union mates.

  481. Walrus permalink
    February 11, 2014 11:30 am

    “Funny how others always manage to leave out Fossil Fuel and mining subsidies”

    Fine to include them and lets all bite the bullet and get rid of them. Plus the RET subsidies of course.

    I think the uptake in fossil fuel consumption following on from the dropping of the RET would more than make up for coal and oil producers losing their subsidies.

    You’d agree to that wouldn’t you JJ…………….?

  482. TB Queensland permalink
    February 11, 2014 11:46 am

    The countries Toyota exports to do not celebrate Christmas.

    Then management should have considered that and stockpiled vehicles for export …

    The Chinese have just finished their New Year Holiday and everything shut down from 26th January to 4th Feb …

    Chinese people legally enjoy over 115 days off including 104 days of weekends and 11 days of festivals. Employees have 5 to 15 days of paid annual leave. Students and teachers have summer and winter vacations for about three months. The summer vacation in China generally starts around July 1st and ends around August 31st, and the winter vacation usually falls on January or February according to the date of the Spring Festival.

  483. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 11:46 am

    Fine to include them and lets all bite the bullet and get rid of them.

    Like to see Tony Abbott do that.

    dropping of the RET would more than make up for coal and oil producers losing their subsidies.

    These subsidies have been around far longer than the RET. Besides, as the recent heat waves showed, the renewables actually filled the void that the large generators couldn’t supply. In South Australia, Solar Panel feed ins helped stop rolling blackouts

  484. Walrus permalink
    February 11, 2014 11:49 am

    “………..the renewables actually filled the void that the large generators couldn’t supply. In South Australia, Solar Panel feed ins helped stop rolling blackouts………”

    Is it comedy hour or something ?

  485. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 11, 2014 11:52 am

    “Then management should have considered that and stockpiled vehicles for export

    May not be possible because of a lack of space. Fact is auto workers have been overpaid for years compared to people doing similar work.

    Looks like the Union won them so many extra benefits they no longer have a job.

  486. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 11, 2014 12:02 pm

    Did unions do all they could to retain a couple of thousand jobs?

    They blocked Toyota at every turn.

  487. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 12:05 pm

    Is it comedy hour or something ?

    How we laughed, when presented with the facts

    http://www.energymatters.com.au/index.php?main_page=news_article&article_id=4129

  488. Walrus permalink
    February 11, 2014 12:06 pm

    “HOUSEHOLDERS will pay an extra $90 a year for the next three years on their power bills to pay for the State Government’s generous solar rebate scheme.

    Retailers are bracing for a late rush on solar systems as the scheme enters its final month for new customers to sign up, which could inflate the cost of the scheme even further.

    SA Power Networks (formerly ETSA) estimates the scheme will cost $1.53 billion over 20 years – and every South Australian is paying for it via their electricity bill.

    It has forecast the average amount recovered from residential customers to subsidise the solar rebates will be $90 a year for the next three years, before dropping to $72 from July 1, 2016, when the 16c scheme closes.”

    http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/as-utilities-bills-soar-south-australians-to-pay-90-extra-a-year-to-account-for-solar-rebate/story-fni6uo1m-1226689871240

  489. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 12:09 pm

    Did unions do all they could to retain a couple of thousand jobs?

    I don’t know about Toyota, but I know about Holden

    Holden workers vote to accept three-year wage freeze

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-13/holden-workers-vote-on-pay-proposal/4884158

  490. Walrus permalink
    February 11, 2014 12:11 pm

    “How we laughed, when presented with the facts”

    Yeap you sure are hilarious JJ.

    Do you ever present any facts from a webpage of an independent nature.

    Your own Link

    “Energy Matters is one of Australia’s largest companies solely dedicated to solar energy; with warehouses around the country and a staff of over 100. “

  491. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 11, 2014 12:12 pm

    “Is it comedy hour or something ?”

    Comedy hour is when the government forces electricity companies to pay exorbitant amounts for politically correct electricity. Those contracts should be torn up and more coal-fired power stations built.

    If Australia can offer a sane IR system and cheap power we stand a chance of attracting sustainable investment. If instead we trick investors and then, when they have poured millions into plant and equipment, the ALP allows union stand-over merchants to extort them, it should come as no surprise that major businesses close down.

    Add to that the spiraling cost of politically correct energy and you have a stalled economy.

    Sadly the ALP spends money with leftist profligacy but is utterly clueless about how to generate the wealth necessary to fund their childish impulses.

    As a result of the Rudd/Gillard years the nation is in debt for the foreseeable future, the unions have been let off the leash and now we are paying the all to predictable price.

  492. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 12:23 pm

    “HOUSEHOLDERS will pay an extra $90 a year for the next three years on their power bills to pay for the State Government’s generous solar rebate scheme.

    I wonder if they factored in how much solar panels are saving energy companies and lowering their costs, which would otherwise have been passed on to consumers, at probably much higher than $90 a year (but without an end date)

    midday demand in SA this summer is down 15 per cent on where it was five years ago, even though night-time demand is up, confirming the impact of solar PV.

    http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/rooftop-solar-reshapes-energy-market-in-south-australia-18272

  493. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 12:25 pm

    Do you ever present any facts from a webpage of an independent nature.

    Why don’t you concentrate on the “facts” part, and less about blaming the source. Do you dispute the “facts”, or just the source?

  494. Walrus permalink
    February 11, 2014 12:29 pm

    “……at probably much higher than $90 a year ”

    Probably ?

    I thought you liked to deal in FACTS ……………….ROFLMAO

  495. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 1:04 pm

    I thought you liked to deal in FACTS

    Hence the word “probably”. At least I am clear when I am dealing with supposition.

  496. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 1:13 pm

  497. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 11, 2014 1:26 pm

    Well we now know the answer to every problem faced by ALP supporters is to subsidize the problem.

    That appears to be the only solution proposed for any problem be leftist people.

  498. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 1:34 pm

    That appears to be the only solution proposed for any problem be leftist people.

    And improving Infrastructure (NBN)

    And workforce participation (PPL)

    And protecting jobs (Unions, GFC action)

    And improving Education (Gonski)

    As opposed to “Let the market Rip” (Did I mention the GFC?)

  499. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 11, 2014 1:59 pm

    Pissing money against the wall on already outdated infrastructure (NBN)

    Pissing money against the wall on middle-class welfare (PPL)

    Pissing money against the wall on to prop up your union mates (Abolish ABCC, GFC waste)

    Pissing money against the wall on education spending for its own sake instead of giving principals power to get results (Gonski)

    Pissing money against the wall well after the GFC blip had passed, leaving the country mired in a debt it cannot repay anytime soon.

    And did I mention supporting the Unionland/Organised Crime cartel in every way possible, starting with the abolition of the ABCC? Paying Shonky Thomson’s legal costs with ALP members’ funds is emblematic of the maggot-infested soul of the ALP.

  500. Walrus permalink
    February 11, 2014 2:00 pm

    ‘The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money’?

    – Margaret Thatcher

  501. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 2:05 pm

    Pissing money against the wall on already outdated infrastructure (NBN)

    outdated? are you able to support that?

    Pissing money against the wall on middle-class welfare (PPL)

    Actually, Tony Abbott is the one wanting to pay millionaires more than grocery workers for the joys of motherhood

    Pissing money against the wall on education spending for its own sake instead of giving principals power to get results (Gonski)

    Four years of research and work from a disparate sources replaced with a brainfart without any evidence it will do anything at all

    Pissing money against the wall well after the GFC blip had passed, leaving the country mired in a debt it cannot repay anytime soon.

    Tell America, England, Ireland, Spain. Greece …….

    ‘The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money’?

    Socialism caused the GFC?

  502. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 11, 2014 2:23 pm

    The Koreans are now trialing wireless 5G technology which will be faster than our NBN.

    Gonski is a funding model, designed to throw money at the problem rather than solve it. The teacher unions love it as much as they detest accountability.

    “Tell America, England, Ireland, Spain. Greece …….”

    Why? I know Rudd and Gillard did their level best to put us in the same economic position as Greece, but I was talking about Australia. Here the problem was solved before the money was spent, but that didn’t stop Labor wasting billions of dollars or celebrity arsonist Peter Garrett from burning down houses and killing people.

  503. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 2:32 pm

    5G technology

    The laws of physics are such a pain in the reality

    http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/mobiles/blogs/gadgets-on-the-go/samsungs-5g-will-complement-nbn-not-replace-it-20130514-2jjlw.html

    Gonski is a funding model

    That will fix the dogs breakfast of one we have now

    I know Rudd and Gillard did their level best to put us in the same economic position as Greece

    And yet they all look/looked to us longingly, wishing they had it so good. Now they just laugh since Tony Abbott started appearing on the international stage

  504. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 11, 2014 2:46 pm

    “That will fix the dogs breakfast of one we have now” by funneling money to the teacher unions. It is just a more efficient way to piss money against the wall – which is precisely why Labor loves it. Why not get to the root of the problem – the utter loathing of teachers have for being held accountable? Only in Unionland are the privileges of teachers put above the rights of kids to a decent education.

    “The laws of physics are such a pain in the reality”

    At first it was “physics” (or at least desperate pig-ignorant leftists) which alegedly dictated that wireless could never achieve fibre speeds. Now it can. Blind Freddy could have seen that coming. Unfortunately Blind Lefty was at the wheel.

    5G means a mixed system is perfectly feasible. Bandwidth is a limitation on all networks, including fibre. Rudd promised a $4.5bn NBN. Then he and Conroy sat down with a serviette and did what Labor does best – worked out a way to spend 10 times that amount on outdated technology. This should have been left to the private sector, with case by case funding for uneconomic locations.

  505. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 11, 2014 2:49 pm

    ‘The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money’

    The trouble with moralising leftist gits is they think they have a god-given right to spend other people’s money without rhyme, reason or limit.

  506. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 3:00 pm

    by funneling money to the teacher unions

    How do you come to that conclusion. The money from Gonski is for schools.

    which alegedly dictated that wireless could never achieve fibre speeds.

    I don’t ever recall that being the argument. It has always been capacity.

  507. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 3:01 pm

    god-given right to spend other people’s money without rhyme, reason or limit.

    hmm, the Liberals seem to feel fine about blowing millions on a political witch hunt, or to prop up millionaires PPL, retirement plans, or private school subsidies.

  508. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 11, 2014 3:26 pm

    Looks like this did not work very well

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Button_car_plan

    The Button car plan, also known as the Button plan was the informal name given to the Motor Industry Development Plan. The plan was an Australian federal government initiative, intended to rationalise the Australian motor vehicle industry and transition it to lower levels of protection. Industry consultation had begun in mid 1983 with the scheme announced, after John Button visited Japan to inform the car companies there of the contents of the plan, in mid 1984 with a proposed start date of 1985.

    The amazing thing about the ALP is that if policies were a horse race, ALP policies would come last every time. They may look good, should be good but when the race is on instead of coming first they come last.

  509. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 11, 2014 3:28 pm

    It is true we need a voucher system for schools and that the PPL is a waste of money. The cost of the Royal Commission should be borne by the ACTU as it has failed to police its own corrupt membership. It is a shame that the money has to be spent, but that is what happens when unions get into bed with organised crime – someone has to clean up the mess.

  510. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 11, 2014 3:35 pm

    “when the race is on instead of coming first they come last”

    That is because they are running in a different race! They are not interested in winning so much as factional infighting and featherbedding. The main function of unions now is the personal advancement of New Class chancers and leeches rather than protection of workers. The slick and the cunning ones end up in parliament with judicial and other sinecures for also-rans and placements in “independent” government bodies for the dross.

  511. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 3:54 pm

    ALP policies would come last every time.

    NBN
    Gonski
    PPL
    NDIS

    compared with

    KILL UNIONS! (and jobs while we’re at it)

  512. Walrus permalink
    February 11, 2014 3:56 pm

    “Now they just laugh since Tony Abbott started appearing on the international stage”

    Got a Link for that?

    Afterall didn’t you say you were interested in FACTS ?

  513. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 3:58 pm

    Looks like this did not work very well

    I think you meant to say, this didn’t survive the wrecking ball

    I hope he plays this, and I hope he dedicates it to Tony Abbott

  514. Walrus permalink
    February 11, 2014 3:59 pm

    So now you want to compare around $80Billion on your list (conservative estimate) with $100M for an RC.

    I’ve yet to hear one business leader complaining about the RC and its terms of ref.

    The reaction of the Unions though is……………………….Priceless

  515. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 11, 2014 4:22 pm

    NBN
    Gonski
    PPL
    NDIS

    I didn’t know these things existed. And by the way the Coalition had a broadband plan in 2007.

    http://www.archive.dbcde.gov.au/2008/01/australia_connected

    And regional areas may have had better internet service by now but Conroy broke a signed contract.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPEL_Networks

    On 2008-04-02, it was announced that the funding agreement had been cancelled.[9] The minister cited OPEL’s failure to meet the terms of the contract,[10] specifically that analysis of OPEL’s detailed maps revealed that it would reach only 72% of under-served premises, a claim refuted by the OPEL joint venture partners, who nevertheless stated that the project would not proceed”

  516. February 11, 2014 5:36 pm

    Our teabags continue to make arse-hats out of themselves, chanting continually that unions and wages are the reason jobs are going.

    lt must really go against the Fundy Teabags grain that, Toyota, Ford, Holden, Mitsubiti, have all had managers speaking to camera that, high dollar and `free-trade` has stuffed them.

    Yay for `free-trade` and the morons that swallow it.

  517. Walrus permalink
    February 11, 2014 5:45 pm

    School’s out

    “7:30” is here

    LOL

  518. Walrus permalink
    February 11, 2014 6:15 pm

    The Inconvenient Truth for those wanting Car Industry Subsidies

    http://www.pc.gov.au/projects/inquiry/automotive/position

  519. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 11, 2014 6:39 pm

    “`free-trade` has stuffed them.”

    If by free trade you mean not enough subsidies then they deserve to get stuffed! As do their greedy workers who think the rest of Australia should kick in and pay them overs. Cretin Shorten wants to subsidise Toyota $20k per car FFS.

    Toyota tried to negotiate a better deal with the workers but got nowhere so now it is leaving town. I agree with Bed Pann on this: “if you can’t afford the staff wages get the fuck out of business”. That is exactly what Toyota is doing.

  520. TB Queensland permalink
    February 11, 2014 7:35 pm

    http://www.news.com.au/technology/design/with-toyotas-departure-the-car-industry-will-leave-australia-and-leave-a-hole-in-our-culture/story-fnjwucvh-1226823642949

    Cretin Shorten wants to subsidise Toyota $20k per car FFS.

    Not like you to BS without evidence, sb? More like $3K … but I’m willing to be edified … 🙂

    FTA are another “gobal economy” furphy … free trade means we get to buy tech at USA prices and softeware and TV series … do you really live in a cave?

    FTA to the Septic Tanks meant destruction of our PBS system and open slather price increases on medication for sick people … even John Winston Howard couldn’r stomach that and full marks for at least one intelligent decision … but haven’y they screwed us on everything else … ask the farmers about selling beef, pork and grain to the good ol’ USofA …

    Glory be to the money sellers for they shall ruin the world!

  521. TB Queensland permalink
    February 11, 2014 7:36 pm

    free trade means we get to buy tech at NOT USA prices and softeware and TV series

  522. February 11, 2014 7:39 pm

    ”””””””I agree with Bed Pann on this: “if you can’t afford the staff wages get the fuck out of business”.””””””” DITTO,

    the trouble is previous softcock Govts, (state+fed) got themselves into the habit of being extorted by big-biz,

    and big-biz then got lazy, ineffective, dumb boardrooms/management not used to competing and innovating

  523. TB Queensland permalink
    February 11, 2014 7:42 pm

    “NBN
    Gonski
    PPL
    NDIS”

    I didn’t know these things existed. And by the way the Coalition had a broadband plan in 2007.

    That explains so much, Kneeel … but I, for one, am not surprised …

    The “plan” you refer to was to destroy Australia’s ability to trade and advance in the 21st …

    Our catlik government is mostly concerned at theirour ability to download porn movies rather than buy them like the rest of the congregation …

    And FYI, I’ve aways preferred to do it than watch it … makes me cringe – fkn amateurs … 😆

  524. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 11, 2014 7:44 pm

    “The “plan” you refer to was to destroy Australia’s ability to trade and advance in the 21st …”

    If you say so oh deluded one.

  525. February 11, 2014 7:46 pm

    ”””””””””””free trade means we get to buy tech at NOT USA prices and softeware and TV series””””””

    it is wonderful to have the `free-trade`privilege of paying 2.7times teh-usa rate, even when teh-aussie$ is actually higher than teh-greenback.

    Enjoy being `ituned`.

    Did l mention `bittorrent` is a beautiful thing.

  526. TB Queensland permalink
    February 11, 2014 7:47 pm

    I Was Only Nineteen

    http://www.news.com.au/technology/design/with-toyotas-departure-the-car-industry-will-leave-australia-and-leave-a-hole-in-our-culture/story-fnjwucvh-1226823642949

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    If you say so oh deluded one.

    Deluded – if only you knew – Fk off, Kneel … the Russians are coming! 🙄

  527. TB Queensland permalink
    February 11, 2014 8:15 pm

    Did l mention `bittorrent` is a beautiful thing.

    http://thepiratebay.se/language

    How stupid is an 80 yo wannabe Australian who became an American citizen to make money that he will never need …

    Bil Gates is dedicated to wiping out malaria …

    Rupert Murdoch is dedicated to being a fkn Dickhead™ … can you see his headstone …

    A True Catlik Died Thinking He Was Rich ….

  528. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 11, 2014 8:15 pm

    “but I’m willing to be edified … “

    The fucker keeps crapping on about foreign government subsidies and then suggests we do likewise – he notes that the US subsidy is about $250 per head. Wikipedia says we make about 200,000 cars per year. So 22 million people times $250 is $5.5bn which divided by 200,000 cars is $27, 500 per car.

    Even the German rate ($90) works out at about $10k per car.

  529. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 11, 2014 8:28 pm

    Looks like Holden workers are on an OK salary. However with housing so expensive in Australia you need a reasonable wage to survive.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/be-holden-to-us-all-carmaker-must-bite-the-wages-bullet/story-fnkdypbm-1226766308075#

    “In the past, Holden has misinformed us on its workers’ salaries, claiming the average worker earns $55,000. Journalists, without checking Holden’s workplace agreement, a public document, have repeated this claim. While the Modern Award base salaries for vehicle builders are in the modest $37,000-$42,000 range, the base rates in Holden’s agreement are in the $60,000-$80,000 range. Add on to this loadings and penalties and I am comfortable betting that if Holden was compelled by government, as it should be, to produce the group certificates of workers, earnings would show in the $100,000 to $150,000 range……………….If the Holden workers went back on to the award, Holden would be miraculously transformed. Labour costs would drop by somewhere between 50 and 75 per cent. Productivity would skyrocket. No productivity inquiry would be needed. Holden might even make a profit and pay the country a dividend as return on its many years of “co-investment”.

  530. TB Queensland permalink
    February 11, 2014 8:35 pm

    The fucker keeps crapping on about foreign government subsidies and then suggests we do likewise – he notes that the US subsidy is about $250 per head. Wikipedia says we make about 200,000 cars per year. So 22 million people times $250 is $5.5bn which divided by 200,000 cars is $27, 500 per car.

    Even the German rate ($90) works out at about $10k per car.

    I asked about Shorten’s $20k per car not information I already knew … ie free market ain’t free market … subsidy means IT DOESN”T FKN WORK! Anywhere! … its as nonsensical as Dog created the world 3000 years ago … it’s a “BELIEF” … by dunces …

  531. February 11, 2014 8:51 pm

    The Russian`s are coming, 🙂

    Free Trade,

    World Peace,

    Saddam Hussain Possesses,

    Duck and Cover.

  532. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 11, 2014 9:21 pm

    annual closedown = non operating asset = under performing return on investment

    It isn’t a matter of stockpiling for a closedown, it is about the ability of asset owners to get the best return on their investment. The best return on assets are required to attract investment.

    Our archaic practice is just another nail in the manufacturing coffin.

  533. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 9:28 pm

    Our archaic practice

    Did you miss the bit about the Chinese shut down.

    I guess it’s easy to dictate to people how and when to have their holidays from your surfboard.

  534. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 11, 2014 9:35 pm

    “Did you miss the bit about the Chinese shut down.

    That’s the style of debate that I always find odd.

    Perhaps they can get away with it because they’re paid about a tenth as much.

    I’ve heard people say – “but our rate of sick leave is less than France” (or something) and “We don’t have as many industrial disputes as Spain” …or “They have a holiday for Thanksgiving in the USA, we don’t”

    Great, we’ll be really successful if we just level up to the least efficient work practice!

  535. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 11, 2014 9:38 pm

    “Did you miss the bit about the Chinese shut down.”

    I am still trying to work out what that post from TB was about.

    ———————————————————–
    “The Chinese have just finished their New Year Holiday and everything shut down from 26th January to 4th Feb …”

    ?????? So what??? That is 7 working days

    ———————————————————————

    “Chinese people legally enjoy over 115 days off including 104 days of weekends and 11 days of festivals. Employees have 5 to 15 days of paid annual leave.”

    Yes. Saturday and Sunday X 52 = 104 days. So what??

    I must admit i did not get that post at 11.46AM

  536. February 11, 2014 9:49 pm

    ””””’It isn’t a matter of stockpiling for a closedown,””””’

    actually, it is called `management` of production assets,

    instead of `demanding` others work for `crap`,

    Fundy Teabags should walk the talk, roll-up their sleeves, and actually go and `do` one of these jobs.

  537. February 11, 2014 9:54 pm

    ”””’Perhaps they can get away with it because they’re paid about a tenth as much.””’

    #China

    when l point this out, along with `free-trade`dumping,

    a certain Fundy Teabag always tries to say the opposite

  538. TB Queensland permalink
    February 11, 2014 9:58 pm

    KNeel from your link”

    WHAT fun and games Holden workers have been having. Last week the Victorians went on strike because they changed their minds about previously agreed redundancy entitlements. The company planned to give 30 workers, forcibly made redundant, severance payments capped at 52 weeks’ pay.

    These payments were less than uncapped severance packages due for 70 workers who had previously volunteered for redundancy. Just to put this all in perspective, 16 weeks’ pay is what the Labor government’s Employment Standard severance is capped at. Anyhow, everyone at Holden thought this was terribly unfair so they all walked out.

    Grace ??? can’t remmeber her last name … knows as much about IR as you do … redundancy pay and severance are different entitlements … this is not Poland …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    It isn’t a matter of stockpiling for a closedown, it is about the ability of asset owners to get the best return on their investment. The best return on assets are required to attract investment.

    Our archaic practice is just another nail in the manufacturing coffin.

    And that load of academic management waffle explains your lack of understanding about production and how it operates … machinery and equipment (just like human beings) does not run forever without constant care and maintenance every so often (usually every six or twelve months – depending on what they produce) production lines need a major overhaul … these are usually programmed in by smart management teams to conincide with the slowest period of either sales or production …

    And our “archaic practice” is used all over the world … Australia is not backward in production knowledge or technique, skills or knowledge … its just a backwater … with people who think they know advising ignorant managementt teams, who constantly fail, because their advisors read books … and just want to satisfy shareholders who don’t know any better themselves …

    Perhaps they can get away with it because they’re paid about a tenth as much.

    Just like their cost of living …

    Great, we’ll be really successful if we just level up to the least efficient work practice!

    Your ignorance about woorld standards is astounding! Have you travelled to the EU and experienced their “standards” … there are two countries that stand out Germany and Austria … can you name me any others … (FYI I have over 21 under my belt!)

  539. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 10:03 pm

    Great, we’ll be really successful if we just level up to the least efficient work practice!

    But you don’t seem to mind arguing that our pay should head in their direction.

    And, while we are speaking of international rates and practices, how can we compete against all those other foreign car companies, many of whom receive far higher subsidies than our Government ever paid out

    http://www.fcai.com.au/library/publication//fcai_report.pdf

  540. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 11, 2014 10:04 pm

    “I asked about Shorten’s $20k per car not information I already knew … “

    I can’t help it if you can’t add up!

  541. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 10:05 pm

    Grace ??? can’t remmeber her last name

    Not worth remembering TB. She is a paid shill for the conservatives. I would trust her comment about “Holden has misinformed us on its workers’ salaries, claiming the average worker earns $55,000.” about as much as I trust Tom exaggerating things

  542. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 10:17 pm

    I can’t help it if you can’t add up!

    Perhaps if you can show your working out?

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