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Oh What a Feeling!

February 11, 2014

The Abbott Government is competently overseeing the demise of the Australian manufacturing industry with Toyota set to follow in the footsteps of Ford and Holden by announcing its decision to abandon Australia.

The previous Labor government predicted the demise of the Australian manufacturing industry some years ago and took prescient steps to encourage investment in  so-called “green energy” initiatives and alternative sources of growth such as education and professional services.

Any idiot can waltz into government promising to slash expenditure. It’s the binding commitment that any new CEO makes to the board when joining any new company – increase profits and cut expenditure.

It’s not rocket science. However without innovation (and its associated required investment) these companies inevitably crash and burn.

It reminds me of a wise adage I read recently:

A CFO says to the CEO:  “What if we invest in our people and they leave the company to go somewhere else?”

And the CEO replies:  “What if we don’t and they stay?”

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241 Comments leave one →
  1. egg permalink
    February 11, 2014 10:04 pm

    ‘and took prescient steps to encourage investment in so-called “green energy”

    That’s $18.5 billion squandered.

  2. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 11, 2014 10:15 pm

    That’s $18.5 billion squandered.

    Well, it is now that Abbott has cut the industry off at the knees.

    Although, I would be interested to see a source for that $18.5 billion

  3. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 11, 2014 10:32 pm

    I agree with Jherk and TB – this is nothing to do with unions or wages or conditions. It is all about Robber Barons, stupid management and and the evils of capitalism. The unions have worked hard to get good conditions for their members.The fact that the businesses are now unprofitable is beside the point. The rest of Australia owes them a living and should be honored to be able to subsidise them. In fact the government should nationalise all businesses, open green unicorn farms across our native land and implement decent pay and conditions for all workers based on the car industry practices. That is the road to prosperity for Australia! TB for PM! Jiggy Jherk – Guardian of the Revolution!

  4. February 11, 2014 10:43 pm

    ””’Any idiot can waltz into government promising to slash expenditure.””’

    That seems to be all they do, along with `red-lining` now-a-days.

  5. February 11, 2014 10:53 pm

    Abboot seems to be ticking off the IPA shopping list one by one as Splatter ass the astroturfing record scratch circle jerks with the rest of the “Con” serve it spivs.

  6. February 11, 2014 11:19 pm

    Mr-Rabbit could learn a lesson here too,

  7. February 11, 2014 11:23 pm

    That`s actually quite a list sally has there Ricky.

  8. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 11, 2014 11:46 pm

    Good link, Bed Pann.

    “Thanks to The Greens whose research in 100 days, 40 failures: A Preview of secretive, cruel and chaotic Government provided the initial material for this project.”,/i>

    I’d like to thank the Greens as well. There is a lot to like on Sally’s list that I didn’t even know about. Now if we can only get him to ditch PPL….. and defund the ABC ….

  9. February 11, 2014 11:52 pm

    Tea its just hypocrite hopscotch.. Notice how Turnbull was very cautious about what he said about Toyota on Q and A last night, as Mark Dreyfus said this government should stop acting like an opposition…oh well I guess now SPC is gone Turnbull can use all those Tin cans to finish his NBN…. He was less cautious than this blatant political stunt

    http://www.smh.com.au/national/health/food-rating-website-fiona-nashs-chief-of-staff-married-to-lobbyist-for-junk-food-industry-20140211-32fs9.html

  10. February 11, 2014 11:59 pm

    Circle jerking astroturfer splatter what caused you to hate your country so? Why don’t you just take a short walk off a long pier you lead headed loon..

  11. Tony permalink
    February 12, 2014 6:29 am

    “Any idiot can waltz into government promising to slash expenditure … It’s not rocket science.”

    No, it isn’t. Slashing expenditure is a piece of piss. That’s why all governments do it, and why we have such a healthy budgetary position, with no debt or deficit. 😯

  12. public toilet permalink
    February 12, 2014 7:01 am

    Guffaw!

  13. public toilet permalink
    February 12, 2014 7:03 am

    Stupid workers should just shut up & watch Milton clips, they get what they deserve.

    When brave Abbott axes the big New carbon tax everything will automatically improve.

  14. February 12, 2014 7:12 am

    I think we discussed the inevitable demise of the car industry around the time Holden workers were voting on a pay cut/freeze. The dilemma for the workers was do they vote against the cut/freeze and risk hastening the company’s closure, or do they go along with it and kick the can down the road.

  15. public toilet permalink
    February 12, 2014 7:16 am

    How the fuck did rust & marty escape that shitstorm?

    Ginger’s fucked now…

  16. egg permalink
    February 12, 2014 7:30 am

    ‘When brave Abbott axes the big New carbon tax everything will automatically improve.’

    Yes.

  17. egg permalink
    February 12, 2014 7:36 am

    ‘Shame of our child brides: Court hears how woman was raped and beaten as it’s revealed hundreds are forced into arranged and unregistered marriages across NSW

    ‘A 14-YEAR-OLD girl was forced into an Islamic marriage with a western Sydney drug gang member who raped and beat her and later physically abused their daughter.’

    Padraic Murphy / Daily Terror exclusive

  18. egg permalink
    February 12, 2014 7:41 am

    ‘THE damage caused by the demise of car manufacturing in Australia has been overstated, economists believe, with Victoria and South Australia expected to avoid recession, and the benefits of cheaper cars and fewer subsidies outweighing short-term costs.

    ‘As Tony Abbott and Victorian Premier Denis Napthine begin talks on a major infrastructure package aimed at offsetting the closure of Toyota’s Victorian manufacturing operations in 2017, economists pointed to Australia’s continued prosperity in the wake of the decline of the textile, clothing and footwear industry caused by the lifting of tariff walls.’

    Creighton and Maher / Oz

  19. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 8:13 am

    It is all about Robber Barons, stupid management and and the evils of capitalism.

    As Splatterbottom said, the US were subsidising their industry to tune of the equivalence of $27,500 per car, the Germans to the tune of about $10k per car. Most other countries are doing this, those that don’t generally have other tariffs etc. Holden were asking for a temporary subsidy roughly $2,000 a car built Instead, he got abuse and heckles from Hockey in QT. The Governments position was clear.
    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/taunts-in-parliament-and-text-brought-about-general-motors-holdens-exit-from-australia-20131211-2z6i6.html#ixzz2t33cNpIA

    I also see in that thread that Splatterbottom claimed that Shorten said we must match these subsidies. I don’t recall ever hearing anyone from Labor claiming that. All I have heard is them pointing out that this is the environment we are working in, and we need to do something to keep our jobs on shore. I also think those numbers are outdated, but only by a few years. The argument remains, most other countries subsidies their industries heavily, others have tariffs. We now have nothing. Thank you Tony and Joe. This is a result of your actions, directly.

  20. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 8:14 am

    Creighton and Maher / Oz

    Are these the same ones who foretold the death of our cattle industry after the temporary ban on live exports to Indonesia?

  21. February 12, 2014 8:14 am

    “Yes.”

    Nein.

    Sie haben ideologische Blindheit.

  22. February 12, 2014 8:16 am

    / Oz…that’s all I need to know about the source & its penchant for rearguard apologetics.

  23. February 12, 2014 8:18 am

    Comment @ 8:14 was in response to el blindheit @ 7:30.

  24. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 8:21 am

    When brave Abbott axes the big New carbon tax everything will automatically improve.

    Even though nothing changed dramatically when it was introduced? Talk about green unicorn farms

  25. February 12, 2014 8:27 am

    Indeed.

    It’s only his willing lickspittles who yearn for the symbolism of Axing The Tax. They probably believe most of what he says. Simple bastards.

  26. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 12, 2014 8:29 am

    “splatter what caused you to hate your country so?”

    Bed Pann , I don’t hate my country. I hate the hardcore leftist dregs of yesteryear who now seek to impose their dystopian vision on Australia, much as their intellectual forefathers tried to turn Australia into a communist hell. Sivelling cunts from Stalin apologist Frank Hardy to Labor cabinet minister and member of the communist party Arthur Geitzelt.

    I hate the corrupt Unionland crime state my country became under Labor, and the steps they took to facilitate that state of affairs.

    I hate that Parliament was degraded by the spectacle of Crooked Craig Thomson being backed to the hilt by the PM while being funded by the ALP.

    I hate that Rudd, in an act of sheer moral hubris, decided to fix a problem that didn’t exist and drowned a thousand people in the process. That is one act which typifies the left – there was no need to change the law as it was not affecting anyone. No one was coming and no one was in detention. But the left decided to lure people to their deaths.

    If you want to talk about moral evil you have it right there from the left in all their vile vain stinking stupidity. Nothing Howard or Abbott did comes even remotely close to that shameful gutless episode.

    I hate that the CFMEU bought and paid for Gillard who promptly removed the ABCC to better enable them to pursue their criminal cartel with the Bandidos.

    I hate that even the fact that a sitting PM is being investigated for corruption cannot be mentioned on the ABC. No wonder the ALP increased its funding. That is typical of the partisan behaviour of that supposedly independent organisation and certainly grounds for its defunding. Leftists have no fucking right to colonise the ABC and use it to advance their putrid agenda.

    I hate that free speech and press freedom is under constant attack from the left, although given their communist antecedents it should come as no surprise.

    I hate that our society is being railroaded into a race-based apartheid state and the push to enshrine that racism in the constitution.

    The good thing is that that unlovely Gollum Shorten, that misbegotten Unionland stooge whose position as Opposition leader is down to the support of corrupt Unions, is entrenched in his position and becoming more unpopular by the minute as he goes around covering for the CMFEU and their business partners the Bandidos. While Shorten is leader the ALP is unelectable.

    There is something rotten in our society and it needs to be cleaned up. All we hear from you and other Unionland scum is the wailing and whining as the cancer is being cut out. The time has come to stop “looking over there” and drain this fetid swamp.

    When this is done the people will probably give the ALP another go to correct the excesses of the conservatives, but only if Labor cleans up its house and rids it of the criminal Unionland infestation that is consuming it. While Shorten, a creature of the Unions if ever there was, is in control this will not happen

  27. February 12, 2014 8:36 am

    “When this is done the people will probably give the ALP another go to correct the excesses of the conservatives, but only if Labor cleans up its house ”

    Sadly, you are correct.

  28. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 12, 2014 8:47 am

    Nothing to do with the unions:

    Toyota told the federal government in December that the key impediment to the company staying in Australia was the workplace conditions at its Melbourne plant…

    Mr Yasuda said he could convince Toyota headquarters in Tokyo to stay in Australia as long as it could pare back the conditions which the company contended were hampering productivity.

    He said he needed something to take back to Tokyo

  29. egg permalink
    February 12, 2014 8:52 am

    ‘Nein’

    With the dismantling of the tax on a harmless trace gas, along with green energy subsidies, the bottom line will look much healthier.

    CO2 does not cause global warming, but as long as it makes you feel good wtf.

  30. February 12, 2014 9:27 am

    ” the bottom line will look much healthier.”

    Pure conjecture.

    Both sides have fallen into the politically expedient trap of overstating threats.

  31. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 9:59 am

    Nothing to do with the unions:

    “the government claims.”

    Didn’t they claim that about SPC also?

  32. Walrus permalink
    February 12, 2014 10:05 am

    “He said he needed something to take back to Tokyo”

    Other than the employee absenteeism records no doubt.

    Yes having dealt with many Japanese over the years I doubt Tokyo would have been too impressed when 30% of its workforce chucked a sickie on Friday 27 January 2012 (the day after the Australia Day holiday) so they could have a 4 day weekend.

    And this is just after the prolonged Christmas shutdown dont forget.

    Must have been a really nice long weekend for the almost 1 in 3 who clearly dont give a flying fuck whether they keep their job or not.

    But the Lunatic Left will no doubt offer up their hysterically funny excuse for it I’m sure.

  33. egg permalink
    February 12, 2014 10:13 am

    ‘Both sides have fallen into the politically expedient trap of overstating threats.’

    No, only the leftoids believe the end of the world is nigh, unless we flagellate. There is nothing that can be done about climate change, its natural.

  34. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 10:14 am

    But the Lunatic Left will no doubt offer up their hysterically funny excuse for it I’m sure.

    You mean like this one?

    It deliberately avoided the crucial point – whether there would be subsidies for the car industry after 2015. That was pretty important, since the then industry spokesman, Ian Macfarlane, had already correctly predicted the car industry would ‘’collapse entirely’’ without them.

    “If you look across the world almost every government supports its car industry … it’s decision time in Australia and there’s no middle ground. You either support the companies into manufacturing a new model here or you cut them loose and let them go,’’ he said in 2012.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/11/abbotts-promise-of-better-jobs-is-cold-comfort-for-retrenched-car-workers

    Ian Macfarlane, a Lunatic Lefty?

    The article also raises the point, what’s your plan Tony? You have deliberately destroyed an industry, what now? The lack of an answer is quite disturbing, but not unforeseen. It was mentioned many times, particularly from the Lunatic Left (although I don’t think Ian Macfarlane was in that category then) that Abbott can only Destroy, he does not know how to create. This is becoming obvious for all to see. He IS a Wrecking Ball. And the only purpose of his destruction lies with the Far Right Agenda.

  35. Walrus permalink
    February 12, 2014 10:23 am

    So you have no opinion upon the attitudes of the workers……………………..just like I thought

    The Productivity Commission Report doesn’t count either I suppose.

    Why did your Party of Grubs let Mitsubishi leave ?

  36. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 12, 2014 10:32 am

    Don’t you get it, Walrus? Jherk is right. The problems of the car industry are everything but the Unions. The workers are heroes for keeping the company going as long as it has. Toyota loves being extorted by them – provided the government makes up the difference. It is every right-thinking citizen’s obligation to cover the cost of union-fucked workplaces and make sure unionists are paid stupid amounts of money for destroying businesses.

  37. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 12, 2014 10:50 am

    “Must have been a really nice long weekend for the almost 1 in 3 who clearly dont give a flying fuck whether they keep their job or not.

    And that is a possible problem giving workers such generous redundancy payments. Auto workers get two years. Some may not mind losing their jobs and paying off the mortgage with the two years lump sum payment.

  38. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 10:59 am

    So you have no opinion upon the attitudes of the workers…

    I did mention on the other thread that not all Union claims are beneficial, in fact, some look to be quite bizarre (although, most often, when you dig down into them, there are reasons for that)

    Having said that, between some Union poor practices, and the Managers ineptness, we still had a viable industry. It was not viable, in such a small market, to support too many manufacturers, particularly ones whose own parent companies were performing so poorly, but GMH and Toyota were not in those categories.

    What I have highlighted instead is, that, taking all other factors in, we had a viable industry, as long as it was supported by the Government. The Government withdrew its support, our automotive industry died.

  39. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 11:05 am

    There is nothing that can be done about climate change, its natural.

    can you keep your denialist ramblings to its little corner of the site?

    https://theguttertrash.com/co2-and-you-iv/#comment-44884

  40. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 12, 2014 11:23 am

    “we had a viable industry”

    How on earth is an industry which has gobbled up billions in subsidies and still makes consistent losses “viable”?

    And why should Australians subsidise unionists who have much better pay and conditions than most workers but won’t make any concessions to help themselves? Fuck them and their overweening sense of entitlement!

  41. Walrus permalink
    February 12, 2014 11:27 am

    “……….we had a viable industry, as long as it was supported by the Government.”

    So what happened to Mitsubishi then ?

    Given your logic we’d still be making saddles and wagons en masse and offering blacksmith services to non existent horses on every corner given enough government support.

    And the Industry was not “viable” according to the Productivity Commission.

    And given Bill Shorten’s IR laws it clearly was not supported by the previous Government.

    Under the ALP imposed IR Regime Toyota sought to have certain practices changed which the Union opposed because it was able to thanks to those slimebags Gillard and Rudd.

    As a consequence the lazy sods of a workforce did not get a say in the amendments. And note that they could have if just 2 of them ( yes just 2 of them) had objected to what the Union was doing. But alas no. Seems they liked the idea of a 4 day weekend including a sickie

    Toyota Australia made no secret of the fact that IR reform had to occur for them to have a strong case for Tokyo.

    Reform never occurred and with that they decided they’d be better off expanding in Thailand and/or Kentucky USA which is where they also make Camrys

    So what happened to Mitsubishi then ?

  42. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 11:34 am

    I wonder if this explains why Cadbury get’s subsidies, but SPC doesn’t?

    Mr Furnival was previously a chairman of Australian Public Affairs, which is listed on the lobbyists’ register as representing the Australian Beverages Council and Mondelez Australia, which owns the Kraft peanut butter, Cadbury and Oreo brands, among others.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/food-rating-website-fiona-nashs-chief-of-staff-married-to-lobbyist-for-junk-food-industry-20140211-32fs9.html#ixzz2t3ykKMw1

  43. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 12, 2014 11:37 am

    Yep it never changes

    Leftoid solution to Problem A = subsidise it

    Leftoid solution to Problem B = subsidise it

    Leftoid solution to Problem C = subsidise it

    When subsidy money runs out get out printing press and print more money. Since we are sovereign in our own currency we can using the printing press and this will cause no problems.

  44. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 11:37 am

    So what happened to Mitsubishi then ?

    I did answer that up the thread.

    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/03/1086203561764.html

    Given your logic we’d still be making saddles and wagons

    I’m sorry, has their been another device discovered recently that replaced the car?

    according to the Productivity Commission

    I guess it depends on the question asked. Do you have a link to where they state it was not viable, so I can find their reasoning.

  45. Walrus permalink
    February 12, 2014 11:50 am

    Seriously you are deluded if you beilive actually the crap you post. To link recalls to stopping production in Australia is the greatest load of bullshit you have so far shoveled up.

    And if that is your only offering did they also close every other one of their factories worldwide ?

    Or did they choose factories that were…………… not “viable” ?

    As far as the Productivity Commission Report is concerned I posted the Link on the Workchoices Thread late yesterday. It should be pretty easy even for you to read some bullet points.

    Unless you are just as lazy as your average poor old Toyota worker ………..Go find it yourself

  46. Walrus permalink
    February 12, 2014 11:52 am

    “if you beilive actually”= “if you actually believe”

  47. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 11:52 am

    And the Industry was not “viable” according to the Productivity Commission.

    The Productivity Commission did not look at the economy-wide benefits of subsidizing a particular industry, which means their findings are largely irrelevant. It is the satellite industries about the automotive industry, and the pool of talent provided by the industry which is leveraged as needed by the mining and defense industries that are the bigger picture here. The report did not consider these factors at all. A pretty vital omission

    When subsidy money runs out get out printing press and print more money.

    Isn’t that what America ended up doing, after the tenure of their Far Right Ideologue had driven their economy to the brink?

  48. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 11:54 am

    We spend $1.5 billion on the car industry and get out $21 billion in yearly production. Meanwhile, we spend something like $33 billion in tax concessions on superannuation, $4.5 billion on fuel rebates to the mining industry, and $1.5 billion in assistance to the private healthcare industry.

    http://www.crikey.com.au/2014/02/11/ask-the-economists-will-the-loss-of-car-making-drive-us-to-recession/?wpmp_switcher=mobile

    That’s a pretty good return on “investment”. A much better term that “subsidy” imo

  49. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 11:58 am

    To link recalls to stopping production in Australia is the greatest load of bullshit you have so far shoveled up.

    Again, you miss the point. I’ll try and highlight it for you, so perhaps it will sink in. Look at the headline

    Crisis-hit Mitsubishi Motors announces another recall

    Mitsubishi was basket case, globally. From REPEATED stuff ups.

  50. Walrus permalink
    February 12, 2014 12:02 pm

    “Again, you miss the point.”

    No I didn’t you as usual chose not to answer my question

    Here it is again……………..

    “…..And if that is your only offering did they also close every other one of their factories worldwide ?

    Or did they choose factories that were…………… not “viable” ?……..”

  51. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 12:08 pm

    Or did they choose factories that were…………… not “viable” ?……..”

    perhaps “less” viable might be more pertinent.

    What might be more pertinent is what is of less concern to their local constituents

    We are not the only country who (used to) have our own countries best interests at heart.

    Your argument is quite specious. All in or none in. When the case is, Mitsubishi were contracting their operations globally to try and stop their financial problems. They were a company in dire trouble. The same cannot be said of Toyota or GMH.

  52. Walrus permalink
    February 12, 2014 12:13 pm

    The Productivity Commission did not look at the economy-wide benefits of subsidizing a particular industry, which means their findings are largely irrelevant. It is the satellite industries about the automotive industry

    THAT IS F**KING BULLSHIT !

    You clearly have not read the Report and now simply choose to lie to argue a point.

    The Report says………..

    “The policy rationales for specific assistance to automotive manufacturing are weak. The community would benefit from the ending of assistance to automotive manufacturing through the Automotive Transformation Scheme (ATS). “

    “There is no compelling evidence that spillover and multiplier benefits exceed the costs of assistance to the industry…………….”

    “Decades of transitional assistance have forestalled but not prevented the structural adjustment now being faced by the industry.”

    “Assistance imposes costs on the community and dulls incentives to improve productivity, seek export opportunities, and diversify into other industries.”

    “Current government funding should be reassessed to determine when subsidies should end, and whether to change the timing and amount of funding withdrawn from the ATS.”

  53. February 12, 2014 12:14 pm

    Ford left under Labor, but only so they didn’t have to succumb to Abbott’s goading.

  54. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 12:21 pm

    The Report says…

    My mistake, it does have a section in there on that.

  55. Walrus permalink
    February 12, 2014 12:24 pm

    “Ford left under Labor”

    Dont remind him IPA or his brain will explode

    He’s having trouble enough with Mitsubishi

  56. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 12:35 pm

    from the report

    In the Commission’s assessment, it is unlikely that the spillovers uniquely associated with Australian automotive manufacturing are of sufficient magnitude

    yet they state that they cannot measure it adequately enough, and dismiss those that have because (in the Bracks case) “that automotive industry spillovers are ‘relatively concentrated’ and that the industry ‘serves only a few other industries with large quantities of spillovers from its own technological activities’ ”

    The question unanswered (although linked to earlier in the report, and dismissed because it concluded then that these gains could come from “normal economic activities”) was what industries? Yes, mining is highlighted further up as benefiting from “normal economic activities”? (I wonder what they are?), but in the Bracks report it says that some industries benefit a great deal from the “spillover”, they just don’t mention which ones.

    Add it all together, and we find out that mining benefits massively from the automotive industry, but they never draw the conclusive line in their reasoning, keeping it well separated.

  57. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 12:36 pm

    <i.He’s having trouble enough with Mitsubishi

    Weren’t you the one who thought I was talking about a one off “recall”?

  58. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 12, 2014 12:49 pm

    Nissan left under Labor because they knew Abbott wanted to destroy them

  59. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 12, 2014 12:50 pm

    Splatterbottom @ 8:29 am

    *yawn* sb completely lets himself go and shits all over the page!

    I sense sb yearning for the good old days of the 1940’s & 50’s when everybody knew their place, when everything worked in the favour of the establishment and nothing was out in the open. Those were the days eh?

    …Mr Furnival was previously a chairman of Australian Public Affairs…

    According to the guardian, mr furnival owns the food & beverage lobby firm, making this intervention even more corrupt.

    …The owner of a lobbying firm that represents food and beverage companies is married to the assistant health minister’s staffer who personally intervened to have a healthy food rating website pulled within a few hours of it being launched…

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/11/healthy-food-rating-website-pulled-by-staffer-married-to-industry-lobbyist

    Once more david marr skewers the LNP over their immoral and unethical demands of the navy re asylum seekers.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/11/peter-reith-abc-children-overboard-david-marr

  60. Walrus permalink
    February 12, 2014 12:53 pm

    Oh FFS

    The “Bracks Report”………………………………..are you fucking kidding.

    You really do clutch at straws.

  61. Walrus permalink
    February 12, 2014 12:55 pm

    “Weren’t you the one who thought I was talking about a one off ”

    Why…………….is Ford as “basket case” as well ????????????

  62. Walrus permalink
    February 12, 2014 12:55 pm

    I think you’ve run out of places to hide now

  63. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 12:55 pm

    You really do clutch at straws.

    Yes, I am. In my defense, I was quoting from the Productivity Report, who referenced it (well, bits and pieces that fit their outcome anyway)

  64. egg permalink
    February 12, 2014 1:00 pm

    ‘can you keep your denialist ramblings to its little corner of the site?’

    Ah … get fucked. Is your name Tim Lambert?

  65. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 12, 2014 1:02 pm

    Now we have reports confirming that Toyota considered the lengthy annual shut down a significant issue, one that hampered productivity.

    Yet TB has been dismissive of that suggestion.

    • Does TB think that a company with a few $billion in investments considers a few weeks of idle plant good use of its investment?
    • Is a manufacturer able to “stockpile” if it is running at efficient production each day?
    • Where do the “stockpiled” cars come from?
    • If a plant is able to “stockpile”, isn’t that an indication of existing spare capacity and daily underutilisation?

    It is now clear that among issues such as the high dollar, it is artificial limitations imposed on production by unions that kills manufacturing.
    ————————–
    Speaking of more efficient maintenance, Qantas used to put their long haul fleet into heavy maintenance every few years (a “D check”). This work would last for 4 or 5 weeks, without much pressure to change.

    With a 100 aircraft cycling through, this meant that there was always one or 2 out of service. Modern maintenance practices were introduced, the maintenance was broken into modules. This enabled part of it to be performed during layovers (parked in London or LA or wherever half day)

    Qantas released the equivalent of 2 aircraft into service through this. This saved it buying a couple of aircraft, saving it $$hundreds of millions.

    TB probably doesn’t think that type of practice is sensible, because it’s based on modern “book learning”

  66. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 12, 2014 1:13 pm

    ‘can you keep your denialist ramblings to its little corner of the site?’

    I second that. His own little room complete with soap box to rant & rave all he wants [generously donated to him by reb] yet he still has to stick his rubbish on every single thread that goes up. What better example of trolling is on the webs?

  67. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 12, 2014 1:21 pm

    ‘can you keep your denialist ramblings to its little corner of the site?…”

    Ah … get fucked. Is your name Tim Lambert?…

    ahem…are you out there reb?
    An adjudication from kamahl would be apt re the repeat offender here. I don’t think pointing out the obvious should invoke such an aggressive and hostile reply.

  68. Walrus permalink
    February 12, 2014 1:26 pm

    “……such an aggressive and hostile reply.”

    Yes this site is a tribute to self control………………………………………..LOL

    Kitty…………………….have you visited the Cafe lately ?…………………LOL

  69. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 12, 2014 1:46 pm

    no, i don’t indulge in the voyeurism that is enjoyed by some.

  70. Walrus permalink
    February 12, 2014 2:06 pm

    Bill Shorten is a BULLSHIT ARTIST

    But we knew that anyway………..

    “Opposition Leader Bill Shorten says the level of subsides provided to car makers in Australia is lower than in other countries…………..”

    “……..Mr Shorten is drawing on data from 2008-09 contained in a report commissioned by an industry body. The report points out there were a number of extraordinary factors affecting the automotive industry at that time.

    His claim is based on outdated numbers that are irrelevant to the current debate. “
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-11/bill-shorten-car-subsidy-numbers-irrelevant-outdated/5251536

    So lets rid ourselves of these damn subsidies and modernise our hospitals / aged care facilities and roads and pay aged care and medical staff (except doctors*) a bit more money.

    Enough of the car union leeches

    * and Queenland based nurses

  71. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 12, 2014 2:13 pm

    I think TB is right about some management. It was the Toyota management who bent over and bowed downed to all the Union demands. Most probably so they could gorge themselves on the taxpayer subsidies like the Unions.

  72. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 12, 2014 2:14 pm

    “What better example of trolling is on the webs?

    It has been said that I talk about unions sometimes.

  73. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 2:33 pm

    His claim is based on outdated numbers that are irrelevant to the current debate.

    How is irrelevant to the debate?

    Are there more recent figures to use?

    Are those figures incorrect?

    “Enough of the mining magnate leeches”

  74. February 12, 2014 2:33 pm

    “he still has to stick his rubbish on every single thread that goes up. What better example of trolling is on the webs?”

    I agree.

    Egg, consider yourself warned. There are plenty of other blogs that you can participate in to publish your inane denialist ramblings… May I invite you to participate in those forums?

  75. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 2:34 pm

    such an aggressive and hostile reply

    It appears to be a standard here armchair opinionator, and seems to be invoked most often in place of any real argument. Or sometimes just pure gloating

  76. egg permalink
    February 12, 2014 2:36 pm

    ‘I don’t think pointing out the obvious should invoke such an aggressive and hostile reply.’

    I have history.

  77. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 2:38 pm

    It has been said that I talk about unions sometimes.

    Does that mean a Union Denialiti dedicaed thread is called for?

  78. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 2:40 pm

    I have history.

    So do the flat earthers

  79. February 12, 2014 2:40 pm

    “I have history.”

    And you might become a part of it if you continue the way you are.

  80. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 2:41 pm

    bowed downed to all the Union demands.

    All?

  81. egg permalink
    February 12, 2014 2:46 pm

    In my own defence I was replying to the post that ‘the previous Labor government predicted the demise of the Australian manufacturing industry some years ago and took prescient steps to encourage investment in so-called “green energy” initiatives…’

    Blogosphere rules dictate that I have right of reply to the independent toilet and that was that.

  82. February 12, 2014 2:51 pm

    “Blogosphere rules dictate that I….”

    Your so-called “blogosphere rules” don’t apply here…

    I suggest you familiarise yourself with our disclaimer.

  83. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 2:53 pm

    Rubbish egg

    We were talking about the impact or not of the Carbon tax on the economy. You jumped in with your normal denialist claptrap. It had nothing to do with the argument, it was just another example of needless trolling, as armchair opinionator quite rightly pointed out.

  84. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 12, 2014 3:01 pm

    Neil, it’s a line often used- ‘it’s management’s fault’

    This is partly true, it may be the fault of past managers, HR hacks, middle managers.

    The key point is- the actual (or new) leaders are required to make changes, reform the culture, if they’re going to salvage some jobs.

    The ‘blame the (past) management’ mantra is fine, but it only takes the business to closure. Reformist leaders should be supported.

  85. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 3:25 pm

    We can blame anyone here, managers, Unions, the dollar, cheap imports.

    However, the automotive industry survived all of this before. The difference now is, the Government has shown it will no longer support certain industries (while it continues to support others). Let the blame rest where it belongs, with the one factor that has changed amongst all the others

  86. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 12, 2014 3:32 pm

    We can blame anyone here, managers, Unions, the dollar, cheap imports.

    That’s fine, but there are plenty around who endlessly seek to excuse chain dragging unions and the archaic work practices they support – such as ensuring a manufacturing plant remains idle for weeks and weeks…and weeks, when it could be producing stuff.

  87. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 12, 2014 3:34 pm

    Until we find a means of pricing the smug self-satisfaction of the bleating classes, the measurable economic benefits of the Carbon Tax and the RET are zero.

    If Green Industry is the future then we are royally fucked. The much vaunted Green industries are shams, incapable of existing without subsidies. You might as well pay people to shit in a hole.

    Labor have left Australia with more debt than it can pay off in the foreseeable future. And with the Carbon Tax and the fairyland Green Schemes and letting corrupt unions off the leash Labor have done their level best to ensure that the economy will not recover anytime soon.

  88. egg permalink
    February 12, 2014 3:35 pm

    ‘We were talking about the impact or not of the Carbon tax on the economy. You jumped in with your normal denialist claptrap.’

    The $18.5 billion has nothing to do with a particular tax and everything to do with green energy. So it was relevant and there are no jobs of any significance to be had.

  89. egg permalink
    February 12, 2014 3:43 pm

    I put this up on another thread, but its worth refreshing because its seriously big infrastructure and heaps of jobs.

    https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/rail/inland/

  90. Walrus permalink
    February 12, 2014 4:02 pm

    “How is irrelevant to the debate?”

    Because he (Shorten) uses the one-off Washington/Detroit 2008 bailout figures you numbskull which conveniently completely distort the USA subsidy making the Oz subsidy look much smaller by comparison.

    Fuck me……………..they are not my figures. That’s an ABC website you numbskull

    The Productivity Report says the same

  91. Walrus permalink
    February 12, 2014 4:04 pm

    “he still has to stick his rubbish on every single thread that goes up. What better example of trolling is on the webs?”

    Is Catching Up still kicking about ?

  92. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 4:06 pm

    That’s fine, but there are plenty around who endlessly seek to excuse chain dragging unions and the archaic work practices they support

    No, I don’t know about others, but I am arguing that the loss of this industry is not because of unions, and that those blaming them usually end up with egg on their faces.

    But Toyota’s management has directly contradicted Mr Hockey’s version of events, releasing a statement denying that it blamed the union for its decision to leave Australia.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/joe-hockey-toyota-at-odds-whether-union-to-blame-for-car-makers-closure-20140212-32h1u.html#ixzz2t4xuAZMd

    The industry left because the Government refused to support it. It was not because of the Unions, or because of management, or the high dollar, or cheap imports. The industry had survived because/despite all of those factors. It ceased when the Government abandoned it.

  93. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 12, 2014 4:10 pm

    “But Toyota’s management has directly contradicted Mr Hockey’s version of events, releasing a statement denying that it blamed the union for its decision to leave Australia.”

    Yes, these are the jokers who bent over and gave in to every Union demand. As if i believe them.

    They are just cowards trying to save their skin.

    And JJ is insane. how about changing record mate.

    We have no auto industry because of deadbeats like you. If we want to save what manufacturing we have left you need to leave the discussion.

  94. Walrus permalink
    February 12, 2014 4:14 pm

    “It ceased when the Government abandoned it.”

    And for that we are thankful

  95. Walrus permalink
    February 12, 2014 4:16 pm

    “It ceased when the Government abandoned it.”

    Meaning it was not “viable” unless it received subsidies massively in excess of what other governments subsidise their own viable industries

  96. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 4:17 pm

    Fuck me……………..they are not my figures

    Well, I asked if there were any more recent ones? I don’t care what site t is from, the fact remains, are there more recent figures? Are the figures correct? That is a fact checking site. Does the site answer or even raise either of my points? If not, they have failed in their aim to “check facts”. Instead, they have become involved in commentary, not fact checking.

  97. Walrus permalink
    February 12, 2014 4:27 pm

    “Does the site answer or even raise either of my points?”

    Well fuck me……..Now you believe ABC Fact Checker should be checking your “Facts”……………

    Well dont you have fucking delusions of grandeur.

    Is your first name Kevin ?

  98. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 12, 2014 4:34 pm

    Don’t be too mean to those with an overweening sense of entitlement, Walrus. If you excluded them from your conversation you would never get to talk with leftists at all.

  99. egg permalink
    February 12, 2014 4:51 pm

    Walrus, what do you make of this coincidence?

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/scary-1929-market-chart-gains-traction-2014-02-11

  100. egg permalink
    February 12, 2014 4:57 pm

    ‘Although, I would be interested to see a source for that $18.5 billion’

    ‘Investments in wind and other subsidised electricity generation, according to the renewable energy lobby group the Clean Energy Council, has been $18.5 billion. By contrast, the market value of comparable generating capacity in Macquarie Generation coal plants is said to be only $2 billion and a brand-new brown coal plant of 3300 megawatt capacity would cost less than $10 billion.’

    Alan Moran / IPA

  101. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 12, 2014 4:58 pm

    ‘The industry left because the Government refused to support it. It was not because of the Unions… The industry had survived because/despite all of those factors. It ceased when the Government abandoned it.’

    It is reasonable to point out that Toyota survived right up until the union prevented efforts by the company to introduce some rational reforms.

  102. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 5:04 pm

    massively in excess of what other governments subsidise their own viable industries

    Do you have figures to support that? Ans when you say “viable” do you mean other countries automotive industries, or are you moving goalposts?

    I have figures, that is, according to one site, “not relevant to the debate”. Unfortunately, until others are presented, then they are central to the debate.

    I note you haven’t answered either of the questions, or provided alternative, more recent, accurate figures.

  103. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 12, 2014 5:05 pm

    It is reasonable to point out that Toyota survived right up until the union prevented efforts by the company to introduce some rational reforms.

    It is reasonable to point out that hockey has been caught out lying about the Unions role in ht demise of Toyota. Just like his boss and SPC

  104. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 12, 2014 5:07 pm

    Quite right, ToM. It is a sad day for the country. The greedy union bludgers need to shoulder their fair share of the blame for this sorry scenario. I am glad the government has the common sense not to throw good money after bad.

  105. Walrus permalink
    February 12, 2014 5:24 pm

    “Do you have figures to support that? ”

    Despite me pointing you in that direction if you dont want to look at the PC Report then so be it.

    Just don’t even think you can be taken seriously any longer. But you are fucking well deluded.

    You are clearly just full of fucking bullshit

  106. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 12, 2014 6:01 pm

    It is reasonable to point out that hockey has been caught out lying about the Unions role in ht demise of Toyota.

    I have no idea who is lying, all I understand is that Toyota attempted get some changes to inefficient/costly/archaic work practices, and the union prevented this.

    A couple of months later they announced their closure.

    I wonder how the workforce now feel about that union “victory”

  107. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 12, 2014 6:31 pm

    You have to learn from mistakes. I think what this has shown is that subsidies do not work.

    Instead of improving the company it looks like Unions and most probably management just gorged themselves on taxpayers money.

    There may be some instances where companies should be supported but that should be one-off money to get companies out of trouble.

    If they cannot survive without continual support the money should be pulled.

  108. February 12, 2014 7:06 pm

    I see a whole lot of speculation above about workforces whom the speculators know very little about.

    Your judgements are hollow.

    YomM makes the odd relevant point. I agree that Unions are not always the workers best friend, but they are still a very necessary evil.
    I’m confident that most of those jealously screeching about conditions of employment are Lone Rangers who’ve never been a cog in a large, floor level workforce & never had any reason to belong to a comparative Union.

    Assuming that everyone should be on award wages & conditions, without a skerrick more, is bloody ignorant & shows a gross misunderstanding of the benefits of enterprise bargaining to both sides.

    Laying the blame on employee largesse is ridiculous & simple minded. But, whatever.

  109. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 12, 2014 7:19 pm

    Toilet

    Nice speech.

    Fact is auto manufacturing is now gone. And all manufacturing that has left Australia gives the same answer. It is too expensive to make things in Australia.

    What to do??

  110. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 12, 2014 7:23 pm

    “YomM makes the odd relevant point.

    High praise indeed!!

  111. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 12, 2014 7:35 pm

    …and I agree, the way to business success is rarely achieved via wage reductions. There is a market for labour, and I’m familiar with some businesses that rely on paying only award level wages.

    The quality of their workforce wouldn’t survive in a technically complex, systemic manufacturing environment. Basic award paid people are fine for being taxi drivers or similar skilled jobs.

    But manufacturing is finished, and unions can take their share of responsibility for-
    • Causing mayhem during plant closure for overhaul or expansion
    • Pressing administrative intensive processes
    • Job creation for non value adding HR hacks and union delegates
    • Imposing archaic work practices such as idle plant for weeks on end
    • Undermining investor confidence and causing a very poor reputation for labour reliability

  112. February 12, 2014 7:37 pm

    “Fact is auto manufacturing is now gone. And all manufacturing that has left Australia gives the same answer. It is too expensive to make things in Australia.”

    That is true.

    I just recognise that slating it all home to the wages & conditions of the workforce(s) is borne of jealousy, ignorance & ideology for the most part; and fails to acknowledge the myriad other factors at play.

    As I said, even YomM has indicated such. But then, he’s more of a closet ‘leftist’ than some of you would care to venture. At least he’s consistent.

  113. February 12, 2014 7:39 pm

    “The quality of their workforce wouldn’t survive in a technically complex, systemic manufacturing environment. Basic award paid people are fine for being taxi drivers or similar skilled jobs.

    But manufacturing is finished, and unions can take their share of responsibility for-
    • Causing mayhem during plant closure for overhaul or expansion
    • Pressing administrative intensive processes
    • Job creation for non value adding HR hacks and union delegates
    • Imposing archaic work practices such as idle plant for weeks on end
    • Undermining investor confidence and causing a very poor reputation for labour reliability”

    Precisely. 😉

    Not every employee is enamoured of their Union either. For instance, seniority is used by a Union to bludgeon shorter term employees.

  114. TB Queensland permalink
    February 12, 2014 7:41 pm

    Bugger me! Noice to be involved involuntarily …

    It is all about Robber Barons, stupid management and and the evils of capitalism.

    I always knew you had a low comprehesion level but you don’t have to prove it …

    And I once again putting words into my mouth … I’m not a follower of the faith (any) … but I do understand business … and it is never as black and white as you seem to think … if I recall you are a small business owner … ?

    I hate the hardcore leftist dregs of yesteryear who now seek to impose their dystopian vision on Australia, much as their intellectual forefathers tried to turn Australia into a communist hell.

    Of which none survive HERE? Your anger doth disaffect your purpose …

    Toyota told the federal government in December that the key impediment to the company staying in Australia was the workplace conditions at its Melbourne plant…

    All companies do that … Yankee mining companies do it all the time … its called a “gambit claim” – usually associated with with unions … what do you expect? That Toyota (or any foreign company) can simply dictate IR conditions?

    In fact the whole idea of “subsiding” any industry is against market economy principles (not Uber Kapitalsim – money from anywhere) … subsidising is indeed a Kommand System concept …

    Does TB think that a company with a few $billion in investments considers a few weeks of idle plant good use of its investment?
    • Is a manufacturer able to “stockpile” if it is running at efficient production each day?
    • Where do the “stockpiled” cars come from?
    • If a plant is able to “stockpile”, isn’t that an indication of existing spare capacity and daily underutilisation?

    No,

    Yes (if it knows what to produce and its IS efficient),

    N/A,

    No (if it knows what to produce and its IS efficient) …

    You last ran a production facility, ToM?

    It is now clear that among issues such as the high dollar, it is artificial limitations imposed on production by unions that kills manufacturing.

    Only to you … what the fk is an “artificial limitation” … pay and conditions?

    TB probably doesn’t think that type of practice is sensible, because it’s based on modern “book learning”

    Another Fuckwit telling me what I think and writing on my behalf! Something that really irks me about certain commenters here …

    I think TB is right about some management. It was the Toyota management who bent over and bowed downed to all the Union demands. Most probably so they could gorge themselves on the taxpayer subsidies like the Unions.

    WHOA! Is that first, Kneel? (I don’t think so … )

    Reformist leaders should be supported.

    According to ToM, eg Alan Joyce …

    Walrus, what do you make of this coincidence? … Investments in wind and other subsidised electricity generation, according to the renewable energy lobby group the Clean Energy Council, has been $18.5 billion.

    Noice to see Kamahal still visits …

  115. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 12, 2014 7:49 pm

    I think what this has shown is that subsidies do not work.”

    Subsidies don’t work where both the company and the union are taking the piss and splitting the proceeds.

    There is certainly a place for government to encourage particular businesses and to ensure the right circumstances exist such as infrastructure, cheap power and stable IR. Obviously this does not include promises made on the run to win an election and it certainly doesn’t include subsidies to union-extorted businesses. The car industry was never a rational candidate for the type of business government should be supporting.

  116. February 12, 2014 7:53 pm

    “it’s based on modern “book learning””

    😀

  117. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 12, 2014 8:04 pm

    “I always knew you had a low comprehesion level but you don’t have to prove it …”

    And then you say this: its called a “gambit claim” by which I guess you mean “ambit claim”?

    “Of which none survive HERE? Your anger doth disaffect your purpose …”

    That wasn’t directed at anyone here. The comment was part of a bitch about what is wrong with the country. And I don’t do angry other than spitting a bit of bile every now and then when people say silly things or when Bed Pann lowers the tone of the conversation.

    We are always destined to be at cross purposes, TB. This is because you are a cantankerous old cnut you and I are more alike than either of us would care to admit. It is just that your background is different and you have a different perspective.

  118. egg permalink
    February 12, 2014 8:14 pm

    TB, what do you make of this coincidence?

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/scary-1929-market-chart-gains-traction-2014-02-11

  119. TB Queensland permalink
    February 12, 2014 8:32 pm

    you and I are more alike than either of us would care to admit. It is just that your background is different and you have a different perspective.

    This is the difference … because you are a cantankerous old cnut

    I don’t use language like that … but it demonstrates your mind-set … foul language demonstrates a limited vocabulary (a very special person once told me) … I hope you enjoy confession every week … that’s the other difference …

    I confess I meant ambit not gambit … a simple typo (I miss keys when I’m keyed up) … have you ever played chess? … If you do actually employ people, or you’re just another internet wannabe … its no wonder life is fkn hard?

    And I’m not like you at all … in fact I’m enjoying retirement, thanks to the democracy/capotalism system that I embrace (not the Uber Kapitalism of Murdoch/Abbott etc) … are/will you?

    So who comes across here as … a cantankerous old cnut

    Gotta go and cook dinner … painted the lounge/dining room today … looks great …

  120. February 12, 2014 8:58 pm

    I love using foul language, I think it accentuates my diverse & florid vocabulary. 🙂

    I try not to use it directly here in a personal affront though (most of the time).

  121. February 12, 2014 9:01 pm

    Rust & Marty are coming for you, Reggie.

  122. February 12, 2014 9:09 pm

    l`m enjoying Kamahl`s Moderation. 😆 ` 😆 ` 😆 `

    +++++++++++++

    ”””borne of jealousy, ignorance & ideology for the most part; and fails to acknowledge the myriad other factors at play.”””””’

    ”””’YomM has indicated such. But then, he’s more of a closet ‘leftist’”””’

    Yomm`s Fundy Teabag downward jealousy is always on display, along with his ignorance of the reality`s of `how-far` the minimum paid`s money goes. He may have come off his surfboard and landed head-first on the reef, the same weekend voting was held and `accidentally` voted non-teabag. His manufacturing/production experience extends no further than his cubicle.

  123. February 12, 2014 9:10 pm

    In certain circumstances foul language is acceptable (if not obligatory).

    Ranting on inanely about climate change is not.

    Like I said before, there are plenty of other blogs where egg may feel more welcome.

  124. February 12, 2014 10:09 pm

    How about a quick rendition of the lord’s prayer, Kamahl? Noone does it quite like you.

  125. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 12, 2014 10:32 pm

    Ah, TB. Maybe you’ll be in a better mood after dinner.

    “This is the difference … because you are a cantankerous old cnut
    I don’t use language like that … but it demonstrates your mind-set … foul language demonstrates a limited vocabulary”

    Ha! Maybe you should tell that to the many great authors, from Chaucer to Joyce, who used that terminology. If you think that your deliberate limitation of your vocabulary makes you a better person then you are a tad deluded.

    “… I hope you enjoy confession every week … that’s the other difference …”

    That statement does illustrate a minor difference being that you spit out catchphrases rather than make coherent arguments. And what kind of dumb sneer is that anyway? As if you have a clue what my take on confession is. You should be less assertive preaching to others, particularly about what you think they believe. Things are often more complex than a one-word smear like “catlik”.

    “I confess I meant ambit not gambit … a simple typo (I miss keys when I’m keyed up) “ Me too. Although you didn’t actually miss a key so much as add an additional letter. But let’s not quibble about small differences.

    “have you ever played chess?”

    I learned my craft at the Sydney Chess Club when it was in the old Anthony Horden building (now World Square). We should have a game sometime.

    ” If you do actually employ people, or you’re just another internet wannabe … its no wonder life is fkn hard?”

    Now your Iain Hall streak is coming out and that is a point of difference between us. If I mention something about my particular circumstances you file it away and then spit it out later as an insult. Just as you did that with that insult about my kids. (I note for the record and to your very great credit you later apologised.)

    “And I’m not like you at all … in fact I’m enjoying retirement”

    I always look for points we all have in common rather than focusing on differences. Most people here are good fun but we all have foibles. I have no doubt you have been more successful in business than I have and more power to you. You are obviously rightly proud of your achievements and your family. If we had more people in the country like you it would definitely be a better place.

    And don’t worry about me. I’m quite happy, I enjoy the challenges of life and I’m sure I’ll do just fine. Maybe not as well off financially as you, but I’ll be just fine. I would like to give you some more detail but then it would probably only end up being shoved back in my face in the form of some pathetic insult.

    And so TB and the rest of the denizens here, especially the ones I get a bit shrill with from time to time please don’t doubt that you have my respect. The commenters I really dislike I ignore. I’m not saying it is all in jest, but rather that it is in the spirit of Scythian discourse.

  126. Walrus permalink
    February 12, 2014 10:37 pm

    “Laying the blame on employee largesse is ridiculous & simple minded. But, whatever.”

    So a 30% rate of sick leave on Friday 27 January 2012 is ok then ?

  127. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 12, 2014 11:03 pm

    Yep i saw that. Wonder if their behaviour would be different if they were not getting govt funding.

    But Toyota workers are fools. They saw Nissan, Mitsubishi, Ford and Holden leave. Just before Christmas management asked the workers if they could shut down for 10 days only instead of the 3 weeks they were entitled to.

    Anybody with any brains could have also seen that was a warning also.

  128. February 12, 2014 11:49 pm

    Hey Kamahl? I wonder which astroturfing Concirclejerker will get the soggy sao..Splatter is odds on but walrus and kneel are brill at hammering on it for hours :roll

  129. February 13, 2014 1:19 am

    Why are people so unkind.

  130. public toilet permalink
    February 13, 2014 2:47 am

    Because the separation & relative anonymity of the internet empowers them to be so?

  131. public toilet permalink
    February 13, 2014 3:04 am

    I can see your point about the sick leave, iatw, but forgive me if I doubt that as the primary cause of Toyota fleeing to a cheaper, more easily exploitable labour market greener pastures.
    Perhaps it is indicative of a general malaise within the workforce, I don’t know because I don’t work there.
    I tend to feel sympathy for the 70% who did the right thing, turned up as rostered & bore the burden which the shortstaffing likely precipitated…but that’s just me. I do know how to work in large groups.

  132. egg permalink
    February 13, 2014 8:10 am

    Well said splatter.

    ———-

    ‘Like I said before, there are plenty of other blogs where egg may feel more welcome.’

    Kamahl the Bolter runs a climate change story every day and I could hang out there, agreeing with his slavish supporters, but where’s the fun in that.

    No, a leftoid blog is definitely the place to be when the world turns upside down.

  133. Walrus permalink
    February 13, 2014 9:00 am

    “I can see your point about the sick leave, iatw, but forgive me if I doubt that as the primary cause of Toyota fleeing”

    Yes Toilet I tend to agree it is not the only reason.

    However Jap work culture usually sends its company’s youngest and brightest (usually still single or just married and prior to kids) off to far flung locations ( on 2 to 3 year “tours”) to demonstrate what they are capable of.

    The CEO was sent here to make a “go” of the joint. I think its quite likely that he got along quite well with the workforce and genuinely wanted to keep the place ticking over. In fact he pleaded with them a few weeks before the sickie episode for their cooperation.

    To repay his “optimism” with a 30% rate of absenteeism would have been deflating for anyone.

    If your “Team” cant give a fuck about the joint or your attempts to save the joint after a while you as CEO wont really give a fuck about the Team.

    And given the many locations around the World screaming out for jobs (Kentucky USA makes the Camry) Tokyo certainly wont give a fuck about you.

    The Jap work culture rewards loyalty. It’s a great “non monetary” strength that the workforce could have demonstrated it had.

    It failed dismally…….!

  134. February 13, 2014 9:32 am

    Yeah the workers at Fukashima have such great faith in Japanese corporate culture after the meltdown of that business model… 😉 The fibsrats have this all covered folks what with groundbreaking investment in alternative energy and technology…all those SPC tin cans will work a treat for Micky Mals “cheaper” NBN

  135. February 13, 2014 9:36 am

    This metaphor best illustrates the Australian car industry

    http://huff.to/1fgy93c

  136. Walrus permalink
    February 13, 2014 9:36 am

    Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeee……………….

    Your crack cocaine dealer was obviously available for you very early this morning Ricky

  137. Walrus permalink
    February 13, 2014 9:55 am

    “…………but rather that it is in the spirit of Scythian discourse.”

    Fuck !

    Now I have to look that up

  138. Walrus permalink
    February 13, 2014 10:04 am

    LOL

    Bill Shorten is now being described as Bill Short-Term

  139. egg permalink
    February 13, 2014 10:16 am

    Bill is a seat warmer.

    AlboAlboAlbo

  140. February 13, 2014 10:27 am

    just a few more strokes and the sao is yours walrus…All this postulating over the corpse. Look into the sinkhole and listen to all the echo’s of political rhetoric rumbling in the darkness to the strains of “true blue”. How about someone shows some leadership beyond the narrowing Murdoch owned jerk cycle. All this bullshit blame and blubbering blah.

    Maybe we shouldn’t make cars here. The answer sure as shit isn’t paying people nothing to produce shit nobody wants? Gin’s gigantic hole is getting a little dry and no amount of vacillation will lubricate that gold rush.

    Meanwhile.. Whiney Piney is lecturing Labor on being rude in parliament..Is he possibly the greatest fuckwit ever elected to the Australian parliament 🙄 This void is so low and out of his depth he could parachute out of a snakes ass and free fall for an hour

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/christopher-pyne-complains-of-undergraduate-labor-behaviour/story-fn59niix-1226825750713

  141. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 13, 2014 10:45 am

    TB, these days every facility, plant, investment looks to increase utilisation to provide a better return on investment and to smooth out unnecessary utilisation peaks.

    This is sensible planning.

    Planning that is not sensible is pushing people and equipment harder than necessary to stockpile in order to overcome some artificially imposed idle period- such as a lengthy vacation that everyone has to take.

    Suggesting that the answer to an archaic work practice is ‘stockpiling’ is nonsense.

  142. TB Queensland permalink
    February 13, 2014 10:52 am

    My only misgivings about losing the car industry is the lack of facilities, RD, skills, knowledge and outlying expertise … this happened just before WWII with military aircraft … it took us (from memory) till 1942 untill we could manufacture here … the Wirraway (also from memory) …

    Having said that, while China has an increasing military budget (and would be considerd our biggest threat) I don’t believe that’s how it plans to rule the world (and it will) … its discovered the power of commerce …

    The recent doco on The Great Wall of China (didn’t catch it all) demonstrates a culture to keep “barbarians” out of China rather than to conquer the world with fire and brimstone …

    The choice is to become part of the Chinese Empire or the Muslim Caliphate …

    The Western nation’s power and influence is slipping – like or not …

  143. TB Queensland permalink
    February 13, 2014 10:53 am

    The Western nation’s power and influence is slipping – like or not …

    nations’ … we have the grammar gestapo about …

  144. Walrus permalink
    February 13, 2014 11:01 am

    “..Is he possibly the greatest fuckwit ever elected to the Australian parliament……”

    Well we just wont know that for certain until you get elected !

  145. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 13, 2014 11:07 am

    …In certain circumstances foul language is acceptable (if not obligatory).
    Ranting on inanely about climate change is not…

    Thank you kamahl, a fair and moderate mod indeed!

  146. Walrus permalink
    February 13, 2014 11:09 am

    “The recent doco on The Great Wall of China (didn’t catch it all) demonstrates a culture to keep “barbarians” out of China rather than to conquer the world with fire and brimstone …”

    Agree

    They seem to lash out at unwelcome invaders (Mongols and Japs) or people getting a tad too close for their comfort (like USAF straying over the Korean borders or dropping a bit of ordinance on Hanoi)

    There is no real religious driver and their sense of extreme Mao Communism as been replaced by Free Market Communism.

    I get the sense that they know they must be vigilant and strong and simply like us just want to live happily ever after with a feeeling that their living standards are always improving.

    The real way to piss them off would be to stop selling baby formula, food, fuel and ore.

  147. TB Queensland permalink
    February 13, 2014 11:11 am

    TB, these days every facility, plant, investment looks to increase utilisation to provide a better return on investment and to smooth out unnecessary utilisation peaks.

    This is sensible planning.

    I don’t suck eggs happily, ToM … pardon the pun (you are at no risk, egg … believe me!)

    Tell me something new …

    Suggesting that the answer to an archaic work practice is ‘stockpiling’ is nonsense.

    It was ONE suggestion …

    Without detailed data … ie through-put, supply lines, JIT info, PM and UP maintenance, staffing levels and limits, sales expectation, transport requirements and availablity … and on and on as I think you know…

    I recall one year having to close my factory for six weeks because I couldn’t get supplies (an exotic alloy polished sheet) … life in production isn’t all easy flowing feet on the desk complacency … (I did discuss the ptroblem with my workforce – as i had a Pm every Monday morning … no holds or info barred … works a treat for me)

    Just ask the coal mines I worked with about planning (especialy contingency planning) … weather and rail … neither came and went on schedule …

    As has been said there are many factors in these decisions … my approach as been to offer the alternatives to … its all the unions BOO! fault …

    I know what arseholes union bosses can be – I dealt with the Ironworkers and later AMWU and CFMEU … but I also know that most managers are not qualified to manage, they are promoted via Peter’s Principle or simply because they know someone …

    Management is a profession not just a title …

    FYI, I worked with a major mining company for over seven years with their management teams … one day their Learning Manager (my client) asked me if I had noticed anything obviously poor in the managers/supervisors skill set — I immediately said PLANNING … they had reached a similar conclusion in their own development program … this was a workforce of many thousands …

    Maybe its got better in the last decade … my suspicion – in everyday dealings — is that its actually got worse …

  148. February 13, 2014 11:11 am

    Enjoy your Sao Walrus. Albo all the way Egg, Bill Short Term..brilliant 🙂

    I see the poison Irish dwarf is trying to get the government to back his expertise in junk stock creation 🙄

  149. egg permalink
    February 13, 2014 11:23 am

    ‘The choice is to become part of the Chinese Empire or the Muslim Caliphate …’

    I prefer the Communists over the dog botherers.

  150. Walrus permalink
    February 13, 2014 11:27 am

    “I see the poison Irish dwarf is trying to get the government to back his expertise in junk stock creation”

    I’ve said before that the Qantas Act needs to go and Joyce with it. Curently they cant raise enough equity so instead they need debt. They need another major airline to take a big slab of them and inject some serious bucks and provide support.

    Otherwise they are f**ked in the medium term.

    Airlines are shit investments. I’d never put my $ into one.

  151. Walrus permalink
    February 13, 2014 11:29 am

    “I prefer the Communists……….”

    21st Century Asian Commos are well advanced on their 20th Century comrades

  152. egg permalink
    February 13, 2014 11:29 am

    ‘Well we just wont know that for certain until you get elected !’

    😉

  153. egg permalink
    February 13, 2014 11:30 am

    ’21st Century Asian Commos are well advanced on their 20th Century comrades’

    Totally agree.

  154. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 13, 2014 11:36 am

    The way that I see it, the world is changing and people need to adapt and change to those conditions too. It is no good trying to hang on to jobs and conditions that are unviable, you can’t force an industry to remain because that is the work you want to do.
    Male dominated unions have been very forceful in increasing their own wages and conditions, perhaps to the detriment of others in the workforce.

    I’d like to see public money going into a decent public transport, one that serves us well and gets people out of their cars and the gridlocked roads.

    When business operators are making good profits and managers are paying themselves very well, then of course workers whose labour creates that profit should share in those financial rewards.

    There used to be a time [before the economic rationalists and neocons created their economic fraud] when business was proud of offering good working conditions!
    It is always very worrying when the signs of the rationalists at work come into play,a high unemployment so that ruthless employers can screw desperate workers out of fair wages.

  155. Walrus permalink
    February 13, 2014 11:42 am

    Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz !

    I almost agree 100%.

    I better get a mental health assessment

  156. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 13, 2014 11:45 am

    “Male dominated unions have been very forceful in increasing their own wages and conditions, perhaps to the detriment of others in the workforce. ”

    Hallelujah. It does not happen often and may never happen again and i may have read it wrong.

    I have seen reports that with overtime Toyota/Holden workers are on $100K/year with overtime. How much do Nurses earn?? How much do the 40,000 in the components industry earn?? And their is plus, plus ,plus also for the auto workers.

    This episode has shown that subsidies do not work. Workers and management just gorge themselves on the free money.

    One off handouts to say SPC – no problem. But continual support does not work.

    It fails to take into account human nature.

  157. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 13, 2014 11:57 am

    Qantas is shackled by –
    • Archaic ownership restrictions
    • Unions that still run the joint
    • Inefficient work practices that are driven by union coverage
    • Generally inadequate management and board capability
    Joyce and the board have made some poor decisions about routes and Jetstar investment, but they don’t lack the courage to do what is necessary to reform some of the IR and cultural problems that plague the airline.

    What many of the anti Joyce brigade don’t understand is that he will have the backing of the majority of the unions as he takes on the ALAEA and TWU. Much of the barracking crowd really have no idea about the Qantas coverage, classification and career issues.

    Unions such as AMWU, AWU, ETU, ASU etc are entirely willing to see the power of the ALAEA and TWU diminish, they stymie the careers and jobs of their own members.

  158. February 13, 2014 11:57 am

    Unlike most pollies, I have a conscious and am a bad fibber, so despite OP attempts to have me join the fold I would rather mop up after Walrus’s Con server jerk circle than spend a millisecond as a professional tool.

    Athough I suspect Wallgrout has a natural gift for such wanton wankery and would breeze through a fiberal pre-selection out in Boganville.

    Here’s Kneel singing your new campaign theme…

    At least the food is better in China.

  159. February 13, 2014 12:04 pm

    Tom, Qantas is last centuries business operating in this centuries market where there is no brand loyalty. Their problems are similar to those facing Australia as a nation at the moment, lack of evolution, lack of long term goals,not addressing changing markets, no adaptability or vision. Something needs to change there big time.

    China having a bit of a flex?
    http://thediplomat.com/2014/02/chinese-naval-exercise-in-eastern-indian-ocean-sends-mixed-signals/

  160. egg permalink
    February 13, 2014 12:18 pm

    ‘I’d like to see public money going into a decent public transport, one that serves us well and gets people out of their cars and the gridlocked roads.’

    Have you seen my Inland Rail scoop? The Greens will love it.

  161. egg permalink
    February 13, 2014 12:29 pm

    Good catch Ricky, very informative.

    Strategic influence, coupled with generous wealth, is not to be feared.

  162. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 13, 2014 12:33 pm

    Well it does look like Unions played a role in the demise of Toyota. What management wanted was a change in attitude

    http://www.afr.com/p/national/former_toyota_boss_says_unions_must_PLGCy7rVs2qNNtDNUNJLzL

    The former head of Toyota Australia and one of its top supplier executives say combative industrial relations helped trigger the company’s decision to stop making cars.

    John Conomos, who worked at Toyota in senior roles for almost 30 years including as executive chairman, said he could understand the company’s frustration at union resistance to changing workplace entitlements and practices…

    “The old fashioned ideas of labour unions simply must change,” he said…

    Gary Stewart, the former general manager of a Toyota “keiretsu” supplier, Aisin Australia, said the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union gave the company a “two-fingered salute” when it blocked workplace changes in court rather than negotiate.

    It was the last straw for the company and gave ammunition to “hawks” at Toyota who supported the pull-out in a finely balanced decision, he said.

    “If it is not the only cause it is certainly at the top of the file.”My opinion is that if Toyota had broken through its IR issues – then most probably Toyota would have tried to continue in Australia.””

  163. egg permalink
    February 13, 2014 12:46 pm

    America hopes to shore-up old allies, but they lack inducements.

    ‘US President Barack Obama will visit Japan, the Republic of Korea, Malaysia and the Philippines in late April, the White House said on Wednesday.

    ‘The upcoming trip is part of the president’s “ongoing commitment to increase US diplomatic, economic and security engagement with countries in the Asia-Pacific region,” spokesman Jay Carney said in a statement.’

    China Daily

  164. TB Queensland permalink
    February 13, 2014 12:57 pm

    WOW! Some very rational thought wandering around here this morning … agree with most of what’s been said … just to cherry pick …

    I prefer the Communists over the dog botherers. (and the dog botherers live in the 15th Century!)

    21st Century Asian Commos are well advanced on their 20th Century comrades

    Absolutely! I’m still hoping for the hybrid political and economic model from China …

    There used to be a time [before the economic rationalists and neocons created their economic fraud] when business was proud of offering good working conditions!
    It is always very worrying when the signs of the rationalists at work come into play,a high unemployment so that ruthless employers can screw desperate workers out of fair wages./i>

    KL, that’s the difference between capitalism and Uber Kapitalism (“how can we rip you off and how much for … rather than what do you need/want and how can we service that need/want?)

    The difference between the old business owners/entertainers/team sports/etc and the contemporary Robber Barons … even the Olympics is now corrupt thanks to the move away from it being a stepping stone for a professional career … win a medal – instant millionaire …

    One off handouts to say SPC – no problem. But continual support does not work.

    It fails to take into account human nature.

    Gred is their biggest failing, Kneel … work hard to actually live life … not enough to control as many poor folk as possible … and more … their are not many Bill Gates around – he wants to eradicate malaria …

    Got to get back to hanging curtains and papyrus!

  165. egg permalink
    February 13, 2014 1:02 pm

    ‘Absolutely! I’m still hoping for the hybrid political and economic model from China …’

    ‘The term Third Way refers to various political positions which try to reconcile right-wing and left-wing politics by advocating a varying synthesis of right-wing economic and left-wing social policies.’

    Wiki

  166. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 13, 2014 3:23 pm

    Looks like SPC got the money it wanted

    http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/abbott-says-spc-did-not-need-federal-money/story-e6frfku9-1226826191737

    The Victorian government on Thursday announced it would contribute $22 million to shore up jobs for at least five years.

    One-off grants to help during a difficult patch i agree with. Now if they come back in 5 years time and want some more i think i would say no.

  167. February 13, 2014 5:12 pm

    Here is the Press release Kneel you AstroTurfing circle jerker… Blame the unions all you want in your little liberal tossathon… here is the facts fucktard..

    http://www.afr.com/rw/2009-2014/AFR/2014/02/10/Photos/b7a0e842-9219-11e3-a3c8-8d8aa8c1635a_Toyota_Media%20release.pdf

  168. February 13, 2014 5:22 pm

    Fuck some of the Fiberals are just pathetic, I mean seriously no wonder they have the likes of Kneel voting for them. Its a varitable zombie fest of brain dead twerps. How do they conduct the pre-selection process, Breath on a mirror?

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/liberal-mp-nickolas-varvaris-accidentally-votes-with-labor-in-chaotic-day-in-parliament-20140213-32ja3.html

  169. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 13, 2014 5:26 pm

    Hmmm “high costs of manufacturing” – what could that be? Nothing to do with the loyal, selfless hardworking labour force and their nice representatives who did everything possible to avert this disaster.

  170. February 13, 2014 5:59 pm

    So what would you have people do Splatter in your infinite wisdom, put a fence around the plant and pretend its in China? We can never ..repeat NEVER compete against developing countries on labor costs. So what is your argument ? have people work for nothing, I noticed through the 80’s when Toyota built Taren Point, smashing Holden they weren’t complaining.

  171. February 13, 2014 6:03 pm

    ””’The recent doco on The Great Wall of China (didn’t catch it all)””
    #Yeah, saw it. Probably 3-times now.
    .
    .
    ”””demonstrates a culture to keep “barbarians” out of China””’

    actually TB, l suspect its one of the oldest examples of yomm`s beloved `Teabag-theory-Failures` that is so well recorded/documented.

    Teabag emporer and dynasty make `major-infrastructure-investment` with slave like worker conditions, (yomms wet-dream.)

    Project clocks up healthy death-toll of said `workers` to meet `dead-lines`.

    Once finished and much-hated by the average worker/extorted-taxpayer, yomm`s wet-dream work-conditions remain. Guards/workers on teh-wall, finally get sick of being starved, and their miserable `work-conditions`, so cut deal with the `invaders` and open teh-gate.

    Yes, Teabags. Much of what you spout from your cubicle has failed for centuries.

  172. February 13, 2014 6:04 pm

    You may direct your feeble attention deficit monotone melon to the most important factors.. HIGH DOLLAR AND ECONOMIES OF SCALE IN A SATURATED MARKET WITH TOO MUCH CHOICE. Most cars people want are imported here, whats you point? Keep making shit that people don’t want uneconomically an blame the unions? Dullard 🙄

  173. February 13, 2014 6:12 pm

    9-news, the Vic-state Teabags have cacked themselves and gifted Coke/spc 22-million$ welfare. What a bunch of weak softcocks, didn`t have the nads to stand-up to bludging-Coke.

  174. egg permalink
    February 13, 2014 6:32 pm

    Last year Simplot in Bathurst said they were closing up and moving to NZ where the wages are lower.

    They were persuaded to stay when the local council gave them 270k to stay and then Woolworths stepped in with $16.5 million.

    http://www.woolworthslimited.com.au/page/The_Newsroom/Press_Releases/Woolworths_commits_165_million_to_Simplot__to_source_100_per_cent_of_Select_frozen_vegies_from_Australia/

    So now they are staying, but by this time next year there will only be 60 people employed because of new mechanisation.

  175. February 13, 2014 6:33 pm

    where is the blubbering, and where is yomm, that this $22million is a gift after 5-years, no stock is issued to Vic-taxpayers for their corporate funding.

    lf bludging-Coke had to go to the market to obtain `upgrade` cash from enterpeneurz, they would need to issue them with stock, but instead Coke are bludging on vic-taxpayers.

  176. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 13, 2014 6:35 pm

    Bed Pann the point is not whether there are other factors at play here but rather whether things might have been different if the unionists had taken a different approach to matters. Unfortunately our union movement has always been infected with an antagonistic rather than a co-operative approach to industrial relations, an approach that has survived the transition of the union movement from far left class warfare to organised crime.

    It is little wonder that when a company is weighing up whether to close down or not the fact that the business is being extorted by greedy trouble-making union thugs can tip the balance. Sometimes killing the goose that lays the golden eggs is not a wise strategy.

    Sadly the union bosses will still have their well-paid jobs long after the members have lost theirs. That is if they haven’t already moved on to some other Unionland sinecure.

  177. February 13, 2014 6:42 pm

    the Vic-state teabags have removed the `opportunity`(key-teabag-phrase) from `entrepanaurs`(tbag-fav) by interfering in teh-market(tbag-fav) and providing the $22million to Bludge-A-Cola

  178. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 13, 2014 7:16 pm

    “We can never ..repeat NEVER compete against developing countries on labor costs

    If the Americans and Europeans can make cars we should be able to. It looks like Toyota wanted to stay going on the post i gave at 12.33PM but the workers refused to change their behaviour.

    That is the problem with subsidies. Workers and management think they will be rescued by the govt and make no effort to do things differently. It would be interesting to see what pay rises management got using the taxpayers money they were given.

  179. February 13, 2014 7:33 pm

    ”””The way that I see it, the world is changing and people need to adapt and change to those conditions too.””””
    you do realize that only applies to the bottom, and never the top, armchair
    .
    .
    ”””””’It is no good trying to hang on to jobs and conditions that are unviable, you can’t force an industry to remain because that is the work you `want` to do.”””’
    #on the un-viable, l tend to agree, but #`want`, or is it #spent much effort and time training up to a `competancy` based level, e.g teachers and nurses would go bananas if the Govt decided to throw `their-years-at-uni` on the scrap-heap, and say nurses and teachers will `learn-on-job`
    .
    .
    ””””’Male dominated unions have been very forceful in increasing their own wages and conditions,””””
    male dominated industry.? perhaps.?
    .
    ”””perhaps to the detriment of others in the workforce.””’
    tend to disagree, tho l`m sure you have an example that will prove ya`point 🙂
    .
    .
    .
    ”””’I’d like to see public money going into a decent public transport, one that serves us well and””””
    agree with sentiments,
    .
    ””””gets people out of their cars and the gridlocked roads.”””
    unfortunately corrupt an stupid Govts, Particularly State/s, have signed `non-compete` clauses that have stopped `rail` expanding to outer suburbs, to force use of `toll` roads and bridges and tunnels, even closing off roads to `funnel` victims onto the toll-way.
    .
    .
    .
    ””””’When business operators are making good profits and managers are paying themselves very well, then of course workers whose labour creates that profit should share in those financial rewards.””””’
    #agree, tho our teabags don`t
    .
    ””””’There used to be a time [before the economic rationalists and neocons created their economic fraud] when business was proud of offering good working conditions!”””
    #probably not `proud`, but knew they `needed` to, else the competition got them, or worker left,
    .
    ””””’It is always very worrying when the signs of the rationalists at work come into play,a high unemployment so that ruthless employers can screw desperate workers out of fair wages.”””””
    #over the years, l`ve actually seen a few biz`s screw themselves out of existence too. 🙂

  180. TB Queensland permalink
    February 13, 2014 7:53 pm

    sb …

    … but rather whether things might have been different if the unionists had taken a different approach to matters.

    You may be absolutely right … but you don’t know … I’ve seen management (been – reluctantly – involved in it) screw workers … and been the victim of the uniuons doing the same …

    Your statement could just as easily read …

    *** but rather whether things might have been different if management had taken a different approach to matters ***

    Neither of us know … you do not (nor do I) have insight into either party’s communication/negotiation …

    Unfortunately our union movement has always been infected with an antagonistic rather than a co-operative approach to industrial relations,

    Once again that is your opinion (and obviously experience) … I’ve seen both sides being antagonistic rather than co-operative … fkn hell I’ve been on both sides being antagonistic/unco-operative … Note, early in my career until I found a bloke who became my business mentor …

    None of us know … we just “take a stand” (side) based on our own heartaches …

    Business owners have a right to make a profit … workers offer their skills and knowledge to help to make that profit … both must share … both bring assets to the table … as I train my kids, g/kids – the three R’s – rights, responsibility and respect …

    “Workers” are not a lower class than “business owners”, or those who are called “manager” or “director” …

    … workers can’t manage … managers don’t understand directing … but managers and directors don’t have the skills/knowledge and experience of the people who actually do stuff! Its amazing what happens to a business whe managers actually ask for opiniuons from the troops …

    I only KNOW this ’cause I’ve been in all three camps!

    No-one is better than anyone else … the real issue is fainess against greed … and some businesses expect to profit at5 the expense of others … not on.

  181. egg permalink
    February 13, 2014 8:23 pm

    ‘have stopped `rail` expanding to outer suburbs, to force use of `toll` roads and bridges and tunnels, even closing off roads to `funnel` victims onto the toll-way.’

    State governments of all persuasion have been seeking Federal government support for decades to build city rail infrastructure, because of the horrendous costs they can’t go it alone.

    Abbott says its not a federal responsibility and will direct most monies into rail infrastructure between cities, not suburbs. Decentralisation is their main goal, easing the burden of mass immigration by opening up the regions.

  182. February 13, 2014 8:39 pm

    l bet Mr-Rabbit won`t be funding anything extra in Vic, since their teabag premier gave bludging-Coke that $22million, l reckon Nap-brain will be crossed off Mr-Rabbits dance-list.

  183. February 13, 2014 8:50 pm

    Exactly TB thank you….they don’t know and neither do the press because they were not privy to the negotiations as they are commercial in confidence..its all about the little circle jerking postulation over some projected hatred when they read what they like into the decision, like the fuckwits in government wrapping their ideology propaganda around it like they always do. Oh we are so sorry for the workers who are exploited by these corrupt unions ruining this country..wank wank wank change hands, what utter balderdash.

    FFS Kneel 1 US make 1/10 the models in 1000 x the market for domestic use, they have closed most of their brands down and import fuckloads of cars. There market is far from healthy and gasoline is way cheaper. 2 Europe have moved most of their brands to third world countries and most of the subsidies you are prattling on about was to develop green model cars for production and export. You may like to look at the fucking exchange rate genius…what do you suggest teabaggers linking wages to the exchange rate? You just wont have it…its the union/workers fault and that’s it, typical of the stupidity running the joint at the moment….thick and pig ignorant…its union corruption ….yeah and splitting the atom is a magic trick… 🙄

  184. February 13, 2014 9:01 pm

    Here is possibly the most retarded fucking idiot to become treasurer… he’s been listing to the fucking goose Costello “mums and dads should invest in the share market”
    What a clueless bunch of economic illiterates…
    http://www.news.com.au/national/treasurer-hockey-says-governments-cant-fund-projects-so-workers-savings-should-be-used/story-fncynjr2-1226826323460

  185. egg permalink
    February 13, 2014 9:10 pm

    ‘l bet Mr-Rabbit won`t be funding anything extra in Vic’

    Only the Melbourne to Brisbane inland freight rail, which will be a good investment for the Australian taxpayer, while any HSR will most likely be privately funded.

    The new Japanese maglev model can reach speeds of 500 kph.

  186. February 13, 2014 9:19 pm

    Just installed this in my browser works a treat
    http://stoptonymeow.com/

  187. February 13, 2014 9:21 pm

    Gee egg thats half as fast as a fiberal lie

  188. February 13, 2014 9:37 pm

    Good Luck with that Dumpty. l can`t see the reheated zombies draggin`themselves into this century. #HumptysWetDream

  189. egg permalink
    February 13, 2014 9:44 pm

    You two are a great credit to the leftoid cause, keep up the good work.

  190. February 13, 2014 9:44 pm

    ””””””””but managers and directors don’t have the skills/knowledge and experience of the people who actually do stuff”””””””’

    While totally true TB, reports containing this type of information tend to get filed in the shredder, when it conflicts with the interests of over-paid types, dwelling inside yomm`s cubicle.

  191. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 13, 2014 11:00 pm

    Yeah. If only our CEO s and directors were former process workers. They’d then know all about running a complex organisation

  192. February 13, 2014 11:30 pm

    Paul Keating Tom 🙂

  193. armchair opinionator permalink
    February 14, 2014 1:23 am

    ”””The way that I see it, the world is changing and people need to adapt and change to those conditions too.””””
    you do realize that only applies to the bottom, and never the top, armchair

    Management and owners can be staid or too slow to change and seek new opportunities for growth too, then everyone ends up out of a job. I think we should be looking at green opportunities and moving to a more sustainable existence, rather than continuing to rely on plundering our natural resources for jobs and profit.

    l tend to agree, but #`want`, or is it #spent much effort and time training up to a `competancy` based level, e.g teachers and nurses would go bananas if the Govt decided to throw `their-years-at-uni` on the scrap-heap, and say nurses and teachers will `learn-on-job`

    That would be a de-valuing of an existing occupation, not the same as no jobs available due to closure of an entire industry.

    Nurses and teachers are already low paid for the skills required and the responsibility given, they are a skilled occupation in high demand. In the ‘market’ that should mean they command high wages and valued skills. Why should nurses and teachers be subject to market intervention while other occupations aren’t?
    If nurses were suddenly not in demand, if there were no patients in hospitals, then they would be out of jobs too, they couldn’t demand continued employment and wages just because they’ve got qualifications and a uni education.

    Of course i don’t mean to make light of job losses, people are afraid for their financial future and security and just paying their bills. I feel sorry for older workers who may not find it easy to get another job, there should be additional resources provided by govt for them.
    .
    male dominated industry.? perhaps.?

    yes, that would be more precise, what i meant actually, but I don’t think the semantics/wording changes the thrust of I was saying too much.

  194. egg permalink
    February 14, 2014 8:21 am

    Climate Sceptic gets Plum Job

    ‘FORMER Coalition government finance minister Nick Minchin will be posted to New York in the plum consul-general diplomatic posting.’

  195. egg permalink
    February 14, 2014 8:25 am

    ‘TONY Abbott has seized on the worst unemployment figures in 10 years to demand Labor stop blocking the government’s repeal of the carbon and mining taxes and its industrial relations agenda as business urged the Reserve Bank to put rate cuts back on the table. Unemployment hit 6 per cent — its highest rate since 2003 — sparking a furious political battle over the state of the economy and who was to blame for rising jobless numbers.’

    Creighton and Maher / Oz

  196. egg permalink
    February 14, 2014 8:59 am

    ‘US investment guru claims house prices set to plummet by up to 50% as ‘demographic crisis’ and falling Chinese demand looms.’

    Farrer / Guardian

  197. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 14, 2014 9:10 am

    TB here are some things we do know:

    1. Toyota workers enjoy pay and conditions well above those of other workers.

    2. Toyota told the federal government in December that the key impediment to the company staying in Australia was the workplace conditions at its Melbourne plant:

    Mr Yasuda said he could convince Toyota headquarters in Tokyo to stay in Australia as long as it could pare back the conditions which the company contended were hampering productivity.

    He said he needed something to take back to Tokyo

    3. Toyota tried to renegotiate the annual closedown but this was rejected by the union.

    4. The union went to court to prevent Toyota workers even voting on changes to conditions.

    5. Toyota workers showed their “loyalty” on the Australia Day Weekend:

    “It was Australia Day that week and it fell on a Thursday. On the Friday thirty percent of our workforce didn’t turn up, thirty percent called in sick.”

    At that point Toyota concluded that the IR situation was hopeless.

    Thus it is quite reasonable to wonder, as you suggest, whether “things might have been different if the unionists had taken a different approach to matters.”

    On the other hand, your suggestion that: Your statement could just as easily read …
    *** but rather whether things might have been different if management had taken a different approach to matters ***
    looks rather lame.

    I guess things might have been different if management decided had decided to bend over, lube up and keep getting fucked over by the union. They might have gone back to HQ and told those charged with making the decision that nothing could be done to improve the IR situation as the union had gone to court to stop them even putting a change to the agreement to the vote and that, taken with all the other issues, meant that Toyota would just have to go on bleeding cash.

    But you know what? The version of the statement you propose is idiotic and so, not having a dildo for a brain, I wouldn’t suggest that at all. My original suggestion is much more in line with the facts we do know.

  198. Splatterbottom permalink
    February 14, 2014 9:43 am

    “Kamahl the Bolter runs a climate change story every day and I could hang out there, agreeing with his slavish supporters, but where’s the fun in that.”

    Spot on, egg. There are blogs out their for the faithful congregations of some specific ideology or other. They limit dissent since their main purpose is to preach to the faithful and keep them on message.

    Blogs like this foster a freer discussion. No matter what your view there is there is usually someone here passionately putting a different view. That is where the fun is.

    It is the (relatively rare) threads where everyone agrees that are the shortest. The contentious threads provide scope for extended discussion as the protagonists develop their own arguments and answer their critics.

    The blogmaster is to be commended, not only for his excellent selection of topics and his witty and pointed commentary, but also for providing this forum and for allowing full and free discussion to flow. There are not a lot of places like this. I’d be gutted without this blog.

  199. egg permalink
    February 14, 2014 9:52 am

    Yep, we luvs yer Reb.

  200. Walrus permalink
    February 14, 2014 9:59 am

    ‘US investment guru claims house prices set to plummet by up to 50% as ‘demographic crisis’ and falling Chinese demand looms.’

    Egg

    The best way to sell yet another of his useless books is for Hary Dent to predict doom and gloom.

    He claims to have predicted the Bear Market of 2008 as early as 1996.

    Well fuck me who would have thought that perhaps sometime in a period of 12 years we might get a Bear Market.

    He’s pathetic. He’s about as reliable a predictor of Markets as Swan was in predicting a budget surplus.

  201. Walrus permalink
    February 14, 2014 10:03 am

    “……….but rather whether things might have been different if management had taken a different approach to matters…………..”

    It’s always quite amusing when Management gets most of the blame from the Lefties for the state of the Car Industry.

    Of course the Yanks and Japanese know sweet fuck all about how to build and market motor vehicles…………………LOL

  202. egg permalink
    February 14, 2014 10:15 am

    Thanx Walrus.

  203. February 14, 2014 10:18 am

    Splatter please quote your sources. (imperative for debate) I always go strait to the source documents to check, not the journalistic jingo version.

    There is no question that we need flexibility in the workforce, that’s what enterprise bargaining is all about, trading for flexibility. Don’t believe all the rhetoric coming from the government, unions are more aware of sustainability nowadays than the outsourced Murdoch propaganda unit of the directorate of ideology in this totalitarian dictatorship would have you believe ..comrade.

    I will remind you all that companies agree to pay above award wages , they are not required to by law, only award wages and conditions which are the minimum requirement. Anything they sign as an agreement above that is negotiated.

    Japanese companies trying to implement Japanese Labor conditions in Australia? What a fucking joke…I worked for NEC, possibly the most racist fascists I have ever had the misfortune to work for. The Japanese executives are racist scum who have contemptuous disdain for Australians. This is the race who is avoiding the potentially world threatening catastrophe at Fukashima and still kill whales in foreign territorial waters for research. They are corrupt, inept, their economy is in taters and they cover up their problems to save face.

  204. Walrus permalink
    February 14, 2014 10:24 am

    “They are corrupt, inept, their economy is in taters and they cover up their problems to save face.”

    Yes,

    But they know how to market and build cars.

  205. Walrus permalink
    February 14, 2014 10:27 am

    “………and still kill whales in foreign territorial waters for research”

    Yes

    It is regretable that the Japanese are still trying to work out why whales die when an explosive harpoon hits them in the back of the skull.

    One day they might work it out.

    But killing sharks is also indefensible.

    West Australians are just fucking weird

  206. TB Queensland permalink
    February 14, 2014 10:33 am

    But they know how to market and build cars.

    Not until Deming showed them (and the rest of the world) how to …

  207. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 14, 2014 10:37 am

    Unions cause trouble in the USA as well.

    My American friends tell my cars made by Toyota in the USA are better quality than cars made by GM and Ford.

  208. February 14, 2014 10:44 am

    Walrus I think you will find most of the people that market the cars have round eyes , drive mercs and the closest thing they come to Japan is the occasional sushi lunch…. I think we can all agree there are way too many “sharks” in WA..start on the land first I say 🙄

    I got to learn first hand what the Japanese corporate culture was like at NEC. That has stayed with me and was th first time in my life where I was exposed to the inherent racism prevalent in the superiority complex of small dicked race of short assed knobs, not indicative of the actual people themselves who are warm and friendly.

  209. February 14, 2014 10:47 am

    Gee thanks for that Kneel you are a variable bottomless pit of useless hearsay. :kneel:

  210. TB Queensland permalink
    February 14, 2014 10:47 am

    Marketing … mmm … what works in Japan the USof A and EU doesn’t always work here … and that goes for all the combinations …

    … as has been mentioned before Australians are particularly spoilt for choice … another abstract reason for the demise of manufacturers here … its cheaper to import … and spend the marketing money on Youtube videos …

    … sales are a different kettle of fish … most salespeople don’t have a clue … even the simple identify, qualify, close approach is lost on them … and that’s not just cars …

    When I was looking at the Santa Fe (I’d already established where I was going to buy) I wandered into a couple of showrooms – hadn’t been in one for literally decades – did I mention I sold Nissan/Datsuns in the ’70’s 😉 … one bloke told me it would be my last car 😯 … it probably will be but you don’t tell a potential client that!

    Of course The Minister nearly choked with her fkn giggling!

  211. February 14, 2014 10:51 am

    Walrus did you see this series on Auntie..twas really good
    http://www.abc.net.au/tv/programs/boomtown/

  212. Walrus permalink
    February 14, 2014 10:57 am

    “………one bloke told me it would be my last car ”

    ROFLMAO

    That’s like telling your wife “Yes your bum actually does look big in that”

  213. Walrus permalink
    February 14, 2014 11:00 am

    “Walrus did you see this series on Auntie.”

    Nah missed it.

    Its one I’ve heard about but have yet to catch up to

  214. Walrus permalink
    February 14, 2014 11:02 am

    “……..inherent racism prevalent in the superiority complex of small dicked race of short assed knobs”

    Yep…………..Yep……………..Yep

    I cant disagree

    But anywhere (Japan) that Child Porn is accepted as normal and widespread is one fucked up joint

  215. Walrus permalink
    February 14, 2014 11:03 am

    “My American friends tell my cars made by Toyota in the USA are better quality than cars made by GM and Ford.”

    If they thing GM and Ford are bad wait until they try a Jeep…………………LOL

  216. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 14, 2014 11:51 am

    The blogmaster is to be commended, not only for his excellent selection of topics and his witty and pointed commentary, but also for providing this forum and for allowing full and free discussion to flow.

    Well said SB!

  217. February 14, 2014 11:57 am

    Jeep and Chrysler are done by the same mob that do Hyuni here…. I was referring to the corporate culture, not the general population who I have always found really nice. It is also prevalent in the Yakuza that run the joint, did you know that like India, the economy runs 2/3 rds black, nobody pays tax and most of the cities and towns are broke.

  218. Walrus permalink
    February 14, 2014 12:02 pm

    “Jeep and Chrysler are done by the same mob that do Hyuni here”

    I think the Jeeps and that horrid looking Chrysler 300CC are put together in the USA.

  219. TB Queensland permalink
    February 14, 2014 12:13 pm

    If they thing GM and Ford are bad wait until they try a Jeep…………………LOL

    Absofknlutely, Wally! They wern’t all that hot on the frontline either … just no competition all the good stuff was made by the Axis powers … LOL!

    “Jeep and Chrysler are done by the same mob that do Hyuni here”

    Don’t think so the Yank models are different in mechanical (did I tell you I own one?) ours actually do come from Korea …

  220. Meta permalink
    February 14, 2014 12:25 pm

    (Scythian discourse?)

  221. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 14, 2014 12:34 pm

    In addition to my previous post, Toyota saw the problems they were having with Unions in Australia so made sure the same things didn’t happen when they started up manufacturing plants in other countries. It may explain why Toyota cars made in the USA are better quality than GM and Ford cars made in the USA

    Apparently Australia was the first overseas production plant for Toyota so it would have been hard for them to leave.

    But anybody with a brain could see the cry for help when management asked them to shorten the Christmas shutdown from 3 weeks to 10 days. Instead management got a two-fingered salute in return.

  222. Meta permalink
    February 14, 2014 12:43 pm

    (They are corrupt, inept, their economy is in taters and they cover up their problems to save face.

    Interesting.)

  223. Jherek Jagged permalink
    February 14, 2014 12:47 pm

    Did anyone here notice Toyota directly contradictsHockeys claim that they left because of the Unions? Give it up, you cannot blame it on the Unions, you just end up looking silly, or, in Tony Abbotts and now Hockeys case, a liar

    Lets look a the impressive (but not comprehensive) list of failures so far

    • Hockey threatens Holden in Parliament, making it clear of their intentions
    • Holden leave, even though Mike Devereaux has the figures showing he can make it work.
    • SPC get turned down, with Tony Abbott claiming it was because of the Unions
    • SPC release their agreement, showing the claims to be incorrect
    • Toyota announce they will leave, one car manufacturer being unsustainable
    • Hockey claims Toyota has said because of the Unions
    • Toyota directly refute this claim
    • Hockey maintains his stance, against all evidence to the contrary
    • Our automotive manufacturing is now effectively dead
    • Our miners will be wondering where they will get their highly skilled workers from (457 springs to mind)
    • Our kids wonder where they will get their skills from (a café springs to mind)
    • Hockey declares that our Government is so broke, we have to dip into peoples super to pay for infrastructure (read – ROADS) Why would he not borrow when Australia is able to leverage very cheap loans due the strength of our economy?
    • SPC is saved by the Victorian Liberal Government who disagree completely with the federal Governments ideology
    • Tony Abbott somehow thinks this makes him right?

    It hasn’t even been 6 months, and the Liberals are dipping into people’s super, Labors legacy, instead of putting more into it. Three years of this, and we will be wishing we could aim to be banana republic still

  224. Meta permalink
    February 14, 2014 12:50 pm

    (Per Tim Dunlop….

    Of course, Mr Abbott is perfectly free to assert that a skeleton government, unionless workplaces, reduced public services, cuts in welfare, cuts in wages, and a minimally taxed business sector is a recipe for a fair and decent society, but we all know that that is rubbish.

    How do we know?

    Because we have a 40-year experiment in precisely the sort of policies he is now pursuing and we can check the outcome. That experiment is called the United States, and it is one the least equal developed nations on earth, decaying from the middle (class) out.

    So we know how the story ends.

    …it’s looking good/bad/indifferent/ugly…for Shorten’s standing/not standing in the way Abbott’s “reforms”.)

  225. February 14, 2014 1:30 pm

    The word apparently seems to be over used in Kneels posts without any reference material, if there is, it is almost invariably from NEWScorp…

    Apparently…this Is this a classic trait of an Astroturfer?

    Cmon Kneel kneel lemon peel you marionette minion of meager, who’s pulling your strings in that circle jerking factofarce parallel luniverse in which you dwell

    SEE 2

    apparent
    əˈpar(ə)nt/Submit
    adjective
    1.
    clearly visible or understood; obvious.
    “for no apparent reason she laughed”
    synonyms: evident, plain, obvious, clear, manifest, visible, discernible, perceptible, perceivable, noticeable, detectable, recognizable, observable; More
    antonyms: unclear, obscure
    2.
    seeming real or true, but not necessarily so.
    “his apparent lack of concern”
    synonyms: seeming, ostensible, outward, superficial, surface, supposed, presumed, so-called, alleged, professed, avowed, declared, claimed, purported, pretended, feigned; More
    .

  226. February 14, 2014 1:33 pm

    TB the importer was a client of mine, I think different models were assemble in different parts of the world. The engines were made in the US from memory. Lots and lots of warranty issues.

  227. Tony permalink
    February 14, 2014 2:52 pm

    “That experiment is called the United States, and it is one the least equal developed nations on earth, decaying from the middle (class) out.”

    And exactly where is this most-“equal” nation to which Tim implicitly refers, and to which we must compare every other developed nation, apparently?

    That’s right, it doesn’t exist.

  228. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 14, 2014 3:01 pm

    The only nice thing i can say about Tim Dunlop is that he let me post. Only one post was banned.

    I think most Labor supporters are totally deluded.

    And what is so bad about the USA?? I don’t see too many people leaving. i see lots of people leaving Eastern Europe where the great experiment in socialism was tried out.

  229. Tony permalink
    February 14, 2014 4:32 pm

    And why does Tim only mention “developed” nations? And aren’t developed nations, including the experiment known as the US, developed precisely because of their systems?

  230. February 14, 2014 4:43 pm

    No Astro boy..he banned you because you are fact deficient maker uperer who only quotes Murdoch.. whats wrong with the US? Its a great place apart from all those retarded teabaggers who hate their country like the ones here. 🙄

  231. February 14, 2014 7:05 pm

    ”””””’That would be a de-valuing of an existing occupation, not the same as no jobs available due to closure of an entire industry.””””””’

    De-skilling is what happens armchair, tradie mates have told me some of the `licensed-trades` have been lobbied against behind the scenes by employer groups so that `de-skilled`, `semi-trained` workers can be created, which will only be paid a fraction in wages,

    guess who benefits the most.?

  232. February 14, 2014 7:40 pm

    anybody that thinks teh-usa system is so fcuking great should go live there for a while, l recommend Detroit, and if they find they love teh-usa, they should fcuking stay there, not try and turn our country `even` more like`em

    #LetsExportTeabags

  233. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 14, 2014 7:44 pm

    Maybe you should spend some time in Russia??

    I don’t see to many people leaving the USA.

    I do see 15 million Mexicans illegally crossing the border.

  234. TB Queensland permalink
    February 14, 2014 9:02 pm

    “”Scythian discourse”” … thanks M …

    … glad you looked it up … means SFA to me in the context of the original rant … but that’s not unusual with wannabe intellectuals …

    ==================================

    Pleased to see I still agree with Tim Dunlop …

    Because we have a 40-year experiment in precisely the sort of policies he is now pursuing and we can check the outcome. That experiment is called the United States, and it is one the least equal developed nations on earth, decaying from the middle (class) out.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    TB the importer was a client of mine, I think different models were assemble in different parts of the world. The engines were made in the US from memory. Lots and lots of warranty issues.

    Different model are assembled in different markets … Oz models are from Korea … US still concentrates on petrol not diesel (bunch of DHs they are) …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    And exactly where is this most-”equal” nation to which Tim implicitly refers, and to which we must compare every other developed nation, apparently?

    Australia 30 years ago … the USA is imploding and Abbott wants us all to jump into the wormhole with them …

    If you think the USA is a “model” nation, you need to get out more … try the Scandinavian countries or the Low Countries of the EU … I’m looking forward to checking out the developing countries of Asia soon too … the UK is fkd – thanks to the Yanks (what an appropriate nickname) …

    ______________________________________

    The only nice thing i can say about Tim Dunlop is that he let me post.

    Pity ’cause now we are stuck with you …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    And aren’t developed nations, including the experiment known as the US, developed precisely because of their systems?

    No … the USA is part of the New World … Eurpe being the Old … I’m suprised at you ToSY … life did not begin in 1492 …. in fact – our national heritage is a tiny country of whackos half way across the world … who were bonking and beheading according to the gospel of the catlik church long before that …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Maybe you should spend some time in Russia??

    I don’t see to many people leaving the USA.

    I do see 15 million Mexicans illegally crossing the border.

    1, Do many Russians escape these days?

    2. Really — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emigration_from_the_United_States

    3. How do you see that – you have your own satellite system?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_migration

  235. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 14, 2014 9:07 pm

    OK TB

    If you were forced to leave Australia where would you chose to go??

  236. February 14, 2014 9:43 pm

    ”””””””””””Because we have a 40-year experiment in precisely the sort of policies he is now pursuing and we can check the outcome. That experiment is called the United States, and it is one the least equal developed nations on earth, decaying from the middle (class) out.””””””””

    So True. Excellent find TB.

    What it `really` shows, is what a bunch of stupid, corrupt, dumb-fcuks we always seem to `let` rule over us, kinda` explains the anti-republic vote too.

  237. February 14, 2014 9:47 pm

    ”””’were forced to leave Australia where would you””go

    another fcuking dopey question,

    Aust. is still the best country in teh-world by far, as far as l`m concerned,

    despite the best efforts of stupid, greedy, dumb-fcuk teabags trying to destroy it from within,

    l have no interest in goin`anywhere permanently to live.

  238. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 14, 2014 9:56 pm

    “despite the best efforts of stupid, greedy, dumb-fcuk teabags trying to destroy it from within,”

    So people like you take credit for creating Australia.

    What else have you done?? You must be an amazing person.

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