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Andrew Bolt calls for Ban of Bendigo Bank

April 9, 2014

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Freedom fighter and free-speech guru Andrew Bolt is calling for an outright ban of the Bendigo Bank following its decision to close the account of a protest group called “Stop the Mosque.”

The Bendigo Bank last week informed the Stop the Mosque group that it was closing the group’s account, saying the bank only wants to do business with organisations that “share its values.”

The group was raising funds for its fight against a mosque which is proposed for a site near Bendigo’s airport.

The bank’s decision has drawn criticism on social media, while local councillor Elise Chapman has accused the bank of trying to be the ‘moral police’.

“There’s a lot of other people – there’s murderers, paedophiles, criminals – everybody banks, and I’m sure that those people also have bank accounts at the bank,” Ms Chapman said.

“I don’t know when the bank becomes the moral police. If the bank was the moral police they’d have not that many customers.”

In a statement, the bank said this was a considered decision and the bank has a right to its own opinion.

It says Bendigo Bank wants to do business with organisations whose values align with its own.

It says the bank values tolerance and inclusiveness, qualities which are an important part of a strong community.

LOCAL LAWYER BACKS BANK’S DECISION

Councillor Chapman has questioned whether the bank’s decision is legal, but Peter Noble, a lawyer with a legal centre in Bendigo, is backing the bank.

“It’s debateable. I wouldn’t say there’s not a case to put before the Equal Opportunity and Human Rights Commission,” Mr Noble said.

“But I think, having looked at the legislation that the bank is on pretty strong ground on this one.”

Mr Noble says Victorian law has a narrow definition of “political beliefs or activity” that applies only to the operation of government and not to more general social views.

He has also rejected Councillor Chapman’s argument that the bank is demonstrating a double standard.

“I’d be pretty surprised if the bank is bankrolling people to commit murder or people to commit murder,” he said.

“I think there’s a material difference between aiding or abetting someone to commit a crime and providing a facility to someone who may have committed those offences in the past.”

The bank has also received support from shareholder activist Stephen Mayne.

“Bendigo bank, unlike any other institution in Australia, has done more to build community cohesiveness and has funded so many different projects across so many communities,” Mr Mayne said.

“If it suddenly is a party to a group which is pushing a vision and controversial views then absolutely it has its own rights to decide who it aligns with.

“I think their rationale completely stacks up with their values.”

Nevertheless, controversial “media personality” Andrew Bolt has slammed the bank’s decision as a “”disgraceful and dangerous” and is basically calling on Bendigo Bank to breach Victoria’s religious vilification laws.

 

 

 

 

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358 Comments leave one →
  1. Walrus permalink
    April 9, 2014 10:08 am

    Why would a Bank even bother becoming involved in something like that ?

    Since when is protesting against something an affront to the Australian Financial System ?

    What is its stance on Climate Change ?

    Is it going to close the accounts of all LNP MPs and anyone else who votes against the Carbon Tax.

    I do hope they don’t use even the tiniest bit of non renewable energy. Otherwise they are just another bunch of fucking hypocrits

  2. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 9, 2014 10:31 am

    This is another skirmish in the culture wars. It is the choice of consumers whether they want to do business with a politcally correct bank. Maybe they prefer bankers to wankers..

    Personally I would bank with the one with the best terms.

  3. Walrus permalink
    April 9, 2014 10:33 am

    ********************BREAKING NEWS**********************

    Max Moore Wilton (head of Sydney Airport a major emitter of CO2) has condemned Christine Milne’s Green Party climate policy and has just banned all aircraft carrying her from landing at Sydney Airport.

  4. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 9, 2014 10:41 am

    It is surely a question of fact and degree. Should a bank deal with Bikie gangs or their associates like the CFMEU?

    What would happen if Bendigo Bank’s banned customers tried to run a radio or TV ad condemning the bank? There is no way the station would run the ad. And who could blame them?

  5. egg permalink
    April 9, 2014 10:51 am

    ‘What is its stance on Climate Change ?’

    They encourage their businesses to become carbon friendly.

  6. Walrus permalink
    April 9, 2014 10:55 am

    “It is surely a question of fact and degree.””

    Yes but Banks are issued with licences just like airports, superannuation funds, insurance companies and TV stations.

    In which case I don’t believe they have a right to pass judgement on other parties since part of their reason for having the licence is to provide a community service.

    Otherwise where does it stop ?

  7. Walrus permalink
    April 9, 2014 10:56 am

    “There is no way the station would run the ad. And who could blame them?”

    But that’s a commercial risk.

    There was none in this case until the stupid Bank created a Monster all by itself

  8. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    April 9, 2014 11:02 am

    Interesting. I suppose if an individual, group, association or business is engaged in a lawful activity, they’re entitled to set up a bank account to support it.

    Though it is a pity it’s Bolt leading the charge on the issue.

  9. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    April 9, 2014 11:20 am

    …but then again, Stephen Mayne seemed to get it right.

    (morality is so confusing)

  10. April 9, 2014 11:25 am

    “I suppose if an individual, group, association or business is engaged in a lawful activity, they’re entitled to set up a bank account to support it.”

    It’s an interesting situation.

    Certainly there’s nothing illegal about setting up a bank account, but if the purpose of that account is unlawful, then it could breach Victoria’s Equal Opportunity Act which states:

    In Victoria it is against the law for someone to discriminate against you because of a personal characteristic that you have, or someone assumes that you have. These personal characteristics are things like age, race, disability, physical features and political beliefs.

    It is also against the law to sexually harass or victimise someone, or to vilify someone because of their race or religion.

    http://www.humanrightscommission.vic.gov.au/index.php/discrimination

  11. April 9, 2014 11:26 am

    (morality is so confusing)

    I know…

    That’s why it’s easier to just fall into line with whatever my view might be on something.

  12. Tony permalink
    April 9, 2014 12:42 pm

    I’m going to become a lefty and get all my moral outrage guidance from twitter.

  13. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    April 9, 2014 12:46 pm

    This lass seems to reflect the type of morality I can align with.

  14. Meta permalink
    April 9, 2014 2:21 pm

    (It seems relatively straight forward. If “Talk to the hand” is too free speech; and if Timmy Wilson agrees, with water cannons on it; then B. Bank has no necessary obligation to waste time in liquidating the views of unOccupy X groups.)

  15. April 9, 2014 3:13 pm

    Nevertheless, controversial “media personality” Andrew Bolt has slammed the bank’s decision as a “”disgraceful and dangerous”

    Oh the stupendously monumental ironic hypocrisy, but then again he takes Rupee’s filthy lucre for sevices to faux fuckwitdom outrage. .

    Is Dolt digging for nazi gold ram raiding with his self promotion bandwagon? Aren’t we lucky to have Dolt and Wee Willie Wilson to protect our rights to be complete racist fucktards? To alert us of all these great pressing wrongs of white middle class oppression 🙄

    What sort of a fucking idiot calls the bank account “Stop the Mosque” ? I guess the type that would name it “Kiddy fiddlers slush fund” or “Andrew Bolt assassination group”

    Just more confirmation that Dolt’s audience are mostly the knuckle dragging minions of meager that evolution left behind

  16. Walrus permalink
    April 9, 2014 3:54 pm

    “….What sort of a fucking idiot calls the bank account “Stop the Mosque” ? I guess the type that would name it “Kiddy fiddlers slush fund” or “Andrew Bolt assassination group”….”

    Extremely poor analogy

    One is a Protest Group the other 2 have clear criminal intent.

    Anyway I doubt it was called “Stop the Mosque”unless they went to the trouble of organising a business name. More likely it was just INSERT NAME HERE Solicitor’s Trust Account No.666 or the like

  17. TB Queensland permalink
    April 9, 2014 6:01 pm

    So, Wally, “Kiddy Fiddlers Support” A/C and “Stop Andrew Bolt’s Broadcasting” A/C would be better analogies then?

    I can’t help thinking the BB should have just STFU …

  18. April 9, 2014 6:46 pm

    Boo-Hoo Bolt, rides again.

  19. April 9, 2014 7:12 pm

    l am surprised `our` Locksteppers haven`t yet foamed and frothed in bolt`s defense, come on teabags, where are`ya, bolt needs`ya defending his free-speech, where is useful imbecile number-one 🙂

  20. Tony permalink
    April 9, 2014 7:17 pm

    Would Bendigo Bank allow No McDonalds in the Dandenong Ranges to hold an account? What about Jake Pancutt, of Upwey?

  21. Tony permalink
    April 9, 2014 7:21 pm

    Bendigo Bank was a major sponsor of Earth Hour 2014. Enough said, really.

  22. April 9, 2014 7:22 pm

    Would Andrew Bolt have squirted so much if Bendigo Bank was disallowing the account of ‘Stop The Cathedral From Being Built’?

    He is a partisan arsehat, who attracts partisan arsehats to his narrow spectrum causes.

  23. April 9, 2014 7:22 pm

    Andrew Bolt is a regular hysteric against Islamism, enough said really.

  24. April 9, 2014 7:23 pm

    #there.he.is

  25. April 9, 2014 7:27 pm

    BTW, what happened to ‘businesses should be free to run themselves’ etc.? 🙄

    Bolt can plead for his lickspittles to boycott Bendigo Bank as much as he likes, for all the good that will achieve. He, and his crotchsniffers, neglect to recognise that they may actually be the minority. Even ‘conservatives’ aren’t all so stupid as to be welded onto his every pet stance & conniption.

    Let the consumer decide.

  26. April 9, 2014 7:28 pm

    #earthhourannoysandrew’sbloglimpets

  27. April 9, 2014 7:29 pm

    “Bendigo Bank was a major sponsor of Earth Hour 2014. Enough said, really.”

    You mean, an Australian business has an environmental conscience…?

    How long has this been going on……?

  28. April 9, 2014 7:30 pm

    Plenty of other banks in Australia who won’t give a fuck.

    How about certain powerful sectors stopping paypal et al from taking donations for wikileaks?

    #freespeechforsome

  29. Tony permalink
    April 9, 2014 7:30 pm

    “BTW, what happened to ‘businesses should be free to run themselves’ etc.?”

    Yes, now that the bank has exposed itself as the self-appointed moral arbiter in the community, the consumers can decide whether they wish to do business with them. As it should be.

    (I prefer my financial institutions to be less judgemental.)

  30. April 9, 2014 7:33 pm

    bendigo is now just a `label` of one of the big-4 anyway, cba.? wbc.?

  31. Tony permalink
    April 9, 2014 7:34 pm

    “You mean, an Australian business has an environmental conscience…?”

    Apparently, in as much as a “business” can have a “conscience”. Terrible, isn’t it?

  32. Tony permalink
    April 9, 2014 7:36 pm

    “bendigo is now just a `label` of one of the big-4 anyway, cba.? wbc.?”

    Wrong, Teabag`Envy. (Surprise.)

  33. April 9, 2014 7:37 pm

    “Apparently, in as much as a “business” can have a “conscience”. Terrible, isn’t it?”

    Brace yourself ToSY…. A growing number of companies do…

  34. April 9, 2014 7:40 pm

    “As it should be.”

    You may well be surprised at the minute lack of a fuck given by the wider community regarding this issue.

    Splatter’s comment seems a reasonable appraisal…

    “Personally I would bank with the one with the best terms.”

    Bolt thinks he’s waaaay more influential, outside of his devoted droolers, than he is.

  35. TB Queensland permalink
    April 9, 2014 7:41 pm

    … was disallowing the account of ‘Stop The Cathedral From Being Built’?

    Fkn mindmelder you are, Toillette

    Downloaded GoT S04E01 last night … ordering GoT S3 BD tomorrow …

    ============================================

    (I prefer my financial institutions to be less judgemental.)

    Guffaw! Plenty to choose from …

    Afrasia Bank Zimbabwe Limited… ?

    Apparently, in as much as a “business” can have a “conscience”.

    Indeed … what a hypocritical world we live in … thank goodness for the legal entities wot aren’t people … but they can somehow make decisions …

  36. TB Queensland permalink
    April 9, 2014 7:42 pm

    Bolt thinks he’s waaaay more influential, outside of his devoted droolers, than he is.

    I’m getting the distinct impression that you may not like Andrew Bolt, Ser T …

  37. Tony permalink
    April 9, 2014 7:43 pm

    “Brace yourself ToSY…. A growing number of companies do…”

    That’s disgusting. 😯

    (I was just being pedantic. Businesses can no more have a conscience than they can be charged with a crime or put in jail.)

  38. April 9, 2014 7:44 pm

    ” A growing number of companies do…”

    An inordinate amount of expense, time & effort is spent by my employer ensuring that it sources from sustainable forestry.
    Apparently some consumers take notice of such things.

  39. April 9, 2014 7:45 pm

    The Hound = fkn Boss!

  40. April 9, 2014 7:46 pm

    #300,000 droolers, and shrinking 🙂

  41. Tony permalink
    April 9, 2014 7:46 pm

    “You may well be surprised at the minute lack of a fuck given by the wider community regarding this issue.”

    Not really, It’s a fringe issue, important to some.

  42. Tony permalink
    April 9, 2014 7:47 pm

    “Apparently some consumers take notice of such things.”

    A fringe issue, important to some.

  43. April 9, 2014 7:48 pm

    Yeah, those who piss their pants about the construction of mosques.

  44. April 9, 2014 7:53 pm

    no fringe issue is complete without the hivemind panty-wetting

  45. egg permalink
    April 9, 2014 8:04 pm

    Its a fringe issue, where money speaks louder than words.

    http://www.bendigoadvertiser.com.au/story/2015464/gallery-bendigos-first-mosque-in-pipeline/

  46. April 9, 2014 8:14 pm

    ” Bendigo’s Sacred Heart Cathedral Monsignor Frank Marriott has called for greater tolerance and harmony among religious groups, following the announcement of a proposed mosque in Bendigo. ”

    Seems like the measured response of a man who actually takes some of the more admirable tenets of his religion seriously.

    Another poke in the eye for Herr Andrew.

  47. TB Queensland permalink
    April 9, 2014 8:23 pm

    The Hound = fkn Boss!

    You ugly bastard!

    +++++++++++++++++++++

    A fringe issue, important to some.

    YouR* stuttering, ToSY, did you know?

    +++++++++++++++++++++

    Another poke in the eye for Herr Andrew.

    There you go again … Ser T! Andrew Bolt has a right to his opinion without people like you “hinting” at a genealogical flaw!

    My Teutonic mate would be flabbergasted …

    … and he’s a big fan of GoT now too! (My fault I lent him my BDs). He seems to like the beheadings best of all …

    … in fact his 16yo son made an interesting observation about GoT … “you know a beheading is coming when the bonking stops” … he’s a very astute/clever young man, I think …

  48. egg permalink
    April 9, 2014 9:12 pm

    “This was a considered decision by our bank, and we respect everyone’s right to voice their opinions,” a Bendigo bank spokesperson said.

    “Equally we have a right to ours, and we want to do business with organisations whose values align with our own.”

  49. Neil of Sydney permalink
    April 9, 2014 9:36 pm

    You just know that Bendigo Bank management are Labor voters. They just ooze with the moral superiority that all ALP supporters seem to have.

  50. April 9, 2014 10:44 pm

    ””””Bolt has a right to his opinion without people like you “hinting” at a genealogical flaw!”””

    dunny seems to be engaging in the `free`speech boltbrandis is fighting to preserve TB,

    who says racial flaws do not exist in legitimate public discussion about so-called journalists.?

  51. Walrus permalink
    April 9, 2014 11:30 pm

    “Brace yourself ToSY…. A growing number of companies do…”

    Yes that’s fine

    But they are not subject to government exclusive licensing like a Bank are they ?????????

  52. Walrus permalink
    April 9, 2014 11:33 pm

    Can someone tell me why Max Moore Wilton cannot shut Sydney Airport to any jets carrying scum like Christine Milne ?

    Or is that too hard

  53. April 9, 2014 11:46 pm

    You just know that Bendigo Bank management are Labor voters. They just ooze with the moral superiority that all ALP supporters seem to have.

    You forgot to ass leftoids, cooms, unionists and greenies….

    Geezy Kneeeeeely luv you really do get all semi stiffy and gooey when people talk about Dolt and his Medicine show of Malarkey.

    Extremely poor analogy

    “Walrus Blubber oil for greasing Dolts corn hole society” ???

    Sorry I’m rolling on the floor at the fact that you actually think that he gives a flying fuck other than brand promote himself… what next next week? Gay Albino Aboriginal Communist Climate Scientist Islamic Teachers?

    Dolt is Tracey Grinshaw with a bigger vagina, predictable, full of shit and lowest card in the pack… If this is the shining light of so called conservative opinion championing free speech and the righteous right cause; you should all stop reading his shit because he’s go some type of mass hypno mind control lobotomizing going on……

    One is a Protest Group the other 2 have clear criminal intent.

    Change hands every now and again Walrus you’re getting speed rash 🙄
    Give Kneely a go on the chocolate wheel…

  54. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    April 10, 2014 8:57 am

    Apparently Bob Carr doesn’t like Julia Gillard’s voice. I suppose he’s a misogynist.

  55. Walrus permalink
    April 10, 2014 9:20 am

    T”is very amusing the Left and its total obsession with Andrew Bolt.

    If Bolt was to go to print with something like…….

    “Man’s coupling with Woman to produce a Child is one of Nature’s most wonderful acts”

    I’m sure the Leftoids would grab at knives in unison and self castrate

  56. Walrus permalink
    April 10, 2014 10:08 am

    “……..bendigo is now just a `label` of one of the big-4 anyway, cba.? wbc.?……….”

    LOL

    Oh dear………….Oh dear……………………..Teabag Frenzy

    You display your ignorance rather nakedly quite often you know

  57. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 10, 2014 10:10 am

    Must have teabags in his eyes!

  58. Walrus permalink
    April 10, 2014 10:22 am

    Yes he must take a “squeeze of lemon” with his tea to be so bitter and twisted

    LOL

  59. TB Queensland permalink
    April 10, 2014 10:26 am

    Mmmm … not hard …

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bendigo_Bank

  60. egg permalink
    April 10, 2014 10:47 am

    ‘In 2002 Bendigo Bank introduced the first “Green Loans” in Australia and formed “Community Sector Banking”, a banking joint venture with the not-for-profit sector.’

    Is that Sharia Banking? And the question should be asked, did the mosque hopefuls get their loan from Bendigo Bank?

  61. Walrus permalink
    April 10, 2014 10:54 am

    “”……………a banking joint venture with the not-for-profit sector.’”

    Not for profit !

    WTF

    Why would anyone want to own shares in an outfit like that ?????????

  62. Meta permalink
    April 10, 2014 11:02 am

    (#becauseourpeopleareourgreatestassets ?)

  63. Tony permalink
    April 10, 2014 12:39 pm

    Further to the idea that a “business” can have a “conscience”. It’s obviously the board of directors, or, more likely, the CEO of the company who issues these fatwas directives. It might be interesting to see what would happen if, say, a lowly teller at one of Bendigo’s branches came out as a Stop-The-Mosque protester.

  64. April 10, 2014 1:12 pm

    Easy tell all the Dolt Zombies… prosecuting his pontificating populous personal promotional propaganda…

    Why don’t you all direct your outrage to the fact that he has all got you bamboozled with his bulshit? So this is the great voice of conservative discourse in Australia, a fact less sensationalist?

    “Your false prophet is a lie and you are all truly Pathetic..truly pathetic” 🙄

  65. egg permalink
    April 10, 2014 3:21 pm

    Robert Manne is a darling of the left. He’s an Australian intellectual, supposedly. GUFFAW

  66. April 10, 2014 4:11 pm

    ””’just a `label` of one of the big-4 anyway, cba.? wbc.?””

    #fair enough

    #Teabags can enjoy small victory

    #bendigo does not have the dragon logo

  67. April 10, 2014 5:25 pm

    lf you notice `our` usual Locksteppers try their best to `chant` the corporate kum-bar-yah of old, and totally ignore the current, modern environment.

    ln the current, modern environment,
    in teh-usa, teabags, death-row has come to a halt.

    Death-row executions have NOT halted coz of `legislation`, `right-to-life-pinkos`, `tree-hugging-do-gooders`, or `save-the-mexican-foundation`.

    The reason, teabags, death-row executions have halted IS,

    REFUSAL TO SUPPLY LETHAL DRUG, BY DRUG COMPANY,

    THAT DOES NOT WANT IT`s CORPORATION

    ASSOCIATED WITH KILLING PEOPLE.

    #Suck.it.up.Teabags 🙂

  68. April 11, 2014 1:43 pm

    Robert Manne is a darling of the left. He’s an Australian intellectual, supposedly. GUFFAW

    And if by intellectual you mean Professor of politics, On the board of a think tank, Distinguished senior lecturer, public speaker and debater, considered an expert in his field, published columnist, published Author, Published Peer reviewed academic, University and governmental consultant. then yes he is a “supposed” intellectual 🙄

  69. April 11, 2014 1:51 pm

    bendigo bank came into existence because of the community dissatisfaction with the treatment they got from the big banks [branch closures etc] Isn’t it community run and reflecting the wishes of it’s community?

    Andy bolt didn’t race into print about the enormous collusion between big banks shutting down wikileaks a/cs and refusing to process donations, where was his screeching then?

    A man after my own heart [and I suspect TB’s]

    http://www.evatt.org.au/news/challenge-labor.html

  70. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 11, 2014 2:09 pm

    when the prime law officer of the land, georgy porgy says its ok for ignorant bigots to openly hate, attack and ridicule others, it is good to see a corporation advocating for human decency.
    They might get new accounts and more deposits due to their ethical and socially responsible stance!

  71. TB Queensland permalink
    April 11, 2014 2:56 pm

    A man after my own heart [and I suspect TB’s]

    Well I do agree with most of that, KL, and I think many of his comments have been reflected here over the last few years …

    Of course, the same applies to the Liberals, but it matters more for the ALP because the right is always in power, regardless of whether it’s in office.

    … far from good enough because the cycles of disappointment intensify, the talent goes elsewhere, and the party dries up.

    But especially …

    The tragedy is we need a radical party – that can set limits to the free market and democratise the state; that knows sustainability and equality must go hand in hand; that has answers to the anxiety and insecurity of modern life; and that prefigures the good society by trusting in people, empowering them and practising an everyday politics of love and compassion. The tragedy is not just that so much more is needed, but that so much more is possible

    Hear! Hear!

    A good piece, KL …

  72. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 11, 2014 4:11 pm

    ”The tragedy is we need a radical party – that can set limits to the free market and democratise the state; that knows sustainability and equality must go hand in hand; that has answers to the anxiety and insecurity of modern life; and that prefigures the good society by trusting in people, empowering them and practising an everyday politics of love and compassion. The tragedy is not just that so much more is needed, but that so much more is possible.”

    What a stupid moralising cnut he is! The real tragedy is that the ratbag left just keeps whining interminably. We don’t need a radical leftist party that wants to fuck-up the very thing that creates wealth – the free market – and to socialise the state and destroy liberty, that wants to send us back to the stone age with hypocritical cant about sustainability and to tribalise society with its hateful race-based multi-culti agenda.

    an everyday politics of love and compassion

    WTF?? Like drowning thousands at sea. And whining and wailing when the drownings stop? Like pissing money down the drain with incompetent schemes that burn down homes and kill workers? The love and compassion of leftist vitriol heaped anyone who happens to disagree with the intelligentsia?

    This prattling idiot is merely mouthing motherhood statements that don’t even mean anything other than that he is a complete and utter tosser.

  73. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 11, 2014 4:21 pm

    …that wants to send us back to the stone age…

    haha, now where have I heard that before?? 😆

  74. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 11, 2014 4:37 pm

    Our economy should exist to support a good society for all, not just the wealthy few. Society should not exist simply to serve an insatiable economic system.

  75. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 11, 2014 4:53 pm

    “Our economy should exist to support a good society for all”

    What does that mean?

    There is no society without an economy. The real question is what type of economy we have. Over time we can see which economies do well and provide better standards of living for society (market economies) and which economies provide lower standards of living (socialist economies, and kleptocracies).

    What constitutes a “good society” is another issue entirely. I’m not sure what you have in mind but I’m pretty sure you can’t have one without an effective economy.

    Right now, in our society, pepole in general are better off on almost any metric you choose, than at any time in human history.

  76. egg permalink
    April 11, 2014 4:58 pm

    Any seconders on a Third Way?

  77. TB Queensland permalink
    April 11, 2014 4:59 pm

    Society should not exist simply to serve an insatiable economic system.

    Or a small number of people who believe they are born to rule, bleed to weak and weary and do whatever they like by paying of democracy …

    One of the first things Cameron did in the UK was to put up uni fees … can’t have the “wild folk” with an edukashun …

    The knights and dames crap here is just as stupid … who pays for all the lurks and perks … apart from creating a false sense of class … steeped in historic, born to rule, nonsense and the divine right of prigs …

    The thrust of Neal Lawson’s article is basically true – chasing office is a losers game – like chasing the dollar without understanding or servicing your customer’s needs … and certainly ain’t aimed at people who view anyone who is not obsessed with making money, rather than helping his/her fellow man/woman to enjoy life …

    Society needs a functioning economy and an economy needs a functioning society … at the moment we seem to have neither …

    I recall reading somewhere that if the gap between rich and poor gets to wide then both society and the economy fail …

    It’s about being satisfied rather than being greedy …

  78. TB Queensland permalink
    April 11, 2014 5:06 pm

    There is no society without an economy.

    And what’s the point of an economy without a society …

    Live to work? Or work to live … ?

    Right now, in our society, pepole (sic) in general are better off on almost any metric you choose, than at any time in human history.

    Having not lived in all human history I don’t know … and not sure what “better off” means … and it may depend on the metric you choose … better off is generally applied to wealth … is that your meaning?

  79. TB Queensland permalink
    April 11, 2014 5:06 pm

    Third Way … egg?

  80. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 11, 2014 5:18 pm

    “And what’s the point of an economy without a society … “

    They go together. A failed economy will produce a failed society.

  81. egg permalink
    April 11, 2014 5:25 pm

    ‘The term Third Way refers to various political positions which try to reconcile right-wing and left-wing politics by advocating a varying synthesis of right-wing economic and left-wing social policies.’

  82. egg permalink
    April 11, 2014 5:30 pm

    ‘The socialist traditions of the old Left, which arose from the working class revolutionary movements of the early 20th century, have been replaced by a moderate and centrist politics that seeks to reconcile capitalism with the egalitarian belief that underpins social policy. Social inclusion is the unifying ideal of this brand of politics, often called the Third Way.

    ‘It combines capitalism with equality of opportunity and is the centre-Left policy solution to socialism. But it is faltering for the simple reason that the ethos of advanced capitalism and the ideals of social equality appear to be incompatible. If social inclusion does in fact fail, it will signal the demise of the contemporary centre-Left.’

    Jennifer Oriel / Oz

  83. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 11, 2014 5:51 pm

    I like what he’s saying TB, he offers some hope for change.

    intro here to his book

    http://www.compassonline.org.uk/collectivity-in-an-age-of-individualism/

    Jeremy Gilbert introduces his new book Common Ground: Democracy and Collectivity in an Age of Individualism:

    …In fact, I suggest, representative democracy has not really been effective in countries such as the UK since the 1970s, when the era of post-war ‘consensus’ gave way to one in which successive governments have implemented a neoliberal programme in the interests of a tiny elite, while rarely if ever enjoying a legitimate popular mandate for doing so…

    …The demand for a more radical and substantive type of democracy – which, for example, Raymond Williams suggested would be necessary as early as 1961 – was not met; what we got instead was the neoliberal world of privatised lives and commercialised culture. This wasn’t an accident. Democracy and collective politics had become terrifying to the agents of corporate power by the end of the 60s, and the embrace of neoliberalism was their political and economic response. The consequence has been the emergence of a world in which individual freedom for consumers is guaranteed and encouraged on an unprecedented scale; but the emergence of any form of potent collectivity – any group capable of actually getting things done together (other than the accumulation of profits) – is actively discouraged and inhibited…

  84. TB Queensland permalink
    April 11, 2014 6:15 pm

    They go together. A failed economy will produce a failed society.

    And vice versa … they are symbiotic … not one over the other …

    I’m a capitalist … but not a free marketeer, I saw that in Indochina … people scrabbling for a living in both People’s Republics and Kingdoms … I saw it in the USA … super rich and super poor … that economic greed … I see no reason why any CEO is worth over $1 million a year … none … especially when the companies they bleed fail …

    People are not a human resource to be exploited … they are people first and foremost …

    Fairness, equality, education, training, health, security, family time …

    Whatever happened to 8, 8, 8 and Saturday and Sunday … a brilliant SA concept destroyed by retailers …

  85. TB Queensland permalink
    April 11, 2014 6:17 pm

    Thanks, egg … interesting stuff … very …

  86. egg permalink
    April 11, 2014 6:56 pm

    Its just a theory, in the hope of breaking the deadlock.

  87. TB Queensland permalink
    April 11, 2014 7:12 pm

    anyway I’m a child of the sixties

    The bands I listened to came from the dark satanic hills and knew the crap that was being foisted on us then … and still is ..

  88. April 11, 2014 8:54 pm

    ”””””””””’The consequence has been the emergence of a world in which individual freedom for consumers is guaranteed and encouraged on an unprecedented scale”””””””””

    armchair, he doesn`t seem to be pointing out that the `freedoms` and `choices` are `non-freedoms` and `non-choices`, most freedoms in our society are `only` available to those far enough up the economic ladder, `our` choices are often `controlled` non-choices too

  89. April 12, 2014 2:28 am

  90. April 12, 2014 2:38 am

  91. April 12, 2014 2:42 am

  92. April 12, 2014 6:18 pm

    ssshhh, don’t tell sb & walrus, they won’t be able to cope 😉

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/12/abbott-chinese-troops-could-exercise-with-diggers-in-australias-north#start-of-comments

    armchair, he doesn`t seem to be pointing out that the `freedoms` and `choices` are `non-freedoms` and `non-choices`, most freedoms in our society are `only` available to those far enough up the economic ladder, `our` choices are often `controlled` non-choices too

    One of the problems with business wanting to reduce wages to minimum, people can’t afford to buy their products.

  93. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 12, 2014 6:31 pm

    Poor campbell newman he had to abandon his trip to china with the cronies and don the wet weather gear. What bad luck!

  94. egg permalink
    April 12, 2014 6:38 pm

    It was bad luck, but it would have appeared unseemly to go in the face of a category 5, which turned out to be a bit of a fizzer.

    No worries, Abbott’s opened the floodgates.

  95. April 12, 2014 7:08 pm

    ””””””””’He said Australia’s already strong defence ties with Japan and South Korea had now strengthened further.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/12/abbott-chinese-troops-could-exercise-with-diggers-in-australias-north#start-of-comments
    ”””””””””””””””””’

    armchair, don`t tell `our` Tinfoilers that Mr-Rabbit didn`t `sign` any agreement in Korea or Japan either, despite all the noise 🙂

  96. April 12, 2014 7:10 pm

    #so-called `trade` agreement

  97. egg permalink
    April 13, 2014 7:21 am

    The trade agreement with Japan, to reduce tariff walls and allow our monocultures in, is simply mind blowing.

    Teabag I read lots of the comments on that Guardian link and funnily they sound just like you.

  98. April 13, 2014 9:06 am

    ”””trade agreement with Japan, _ is simply mind blowing.”””

    Tinfoilers impressed with `unsigned` agreements.

    #UnSurprisement
    _____

    ”””’funnily they sound just like you”””

    #FindingThatHardToBelieveDumpty

  99. April 13, 2014 9:13 am

    For some stupid reason Barrie has got Toolman sitting on the Insiders `clever-couch` this morning. Barrie is obviously `lowering` the standards.

  100. egg permalink
    April 13, 2014 9:19 am

    ‘Tinfoilers impressed with `unsigned` agreements.’

    Its a fait accompli.

  101. TB Queensland permalink
    April 13, 2014 9:41 am

    Poor campbell newman he had to abandon his trip to china with the cronies and don the wet weather gear.

    I noticed … “Mr Newman has told Prime Minister Tony Abbott to continue on to China without him.” Noice of, Ser Noddy, to let Abbott and the orchestra continue without him …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Teabag I read lots of the comments on that Guardian link and funnily they sound just like you.

    Ever thought there could be a reason for that, egg?

  102. April 13, 2014 9:58 am

    Toolman (surprisingly) said something of interest, research/polling is showing Mr-Rabbits `wealthy-womens-breeding-welfare` is `jarring` across most segments of the community and, is highly disliked among his teabags, Looks like it will be jettisoned.

  103. April 13, 2014 10:28 am

    The sahm’s and their wealthy partners hate the thought that a working woman will get paid for having a baby, they believe their own contribution should be acknowledged by handout for themselves even though they choose [and have the means] not to work. That’s what howard’s baby bonus was about, parental payment for all women which was ideological and wrong imo. I don’t know how many times I’ve said this, but i’ll say it again, parental leave should be about equality in the workforce for women with men [interrupted careers and financial loss due to biology] not about equality of access to taxpayer welfare.

  104. April 13, 2014 10:42 am

    l think it will bring `resentment` all round armchair,

    this looks to be a `benefit` to those with full-time/long-term jobs, while those of us at the bottom have had holidays/benefits stripped off them, and having `work` meted out on a day by day basis,

    also, l don`t know if you noticed, but via a `money-go-round`, Mr-Rabbits offer IS a taxpayer welfare arrangement,

    the arrangement is, employer will `pay` it initially, but don`t worry corporate-biz, you will receive a `rebate` when the biz puts in their tax-return,

    despite all claims, ##-it-IS-paid-by-the-taxpayer

  105. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    April 13, 2014 10:46 am

    ”parental leave should be about equality in the workforce for women with men [interrupted careers and financial loss due to biology] not about equality of access to taxpayer welfare.”

    Many women’s groups have (in the past) supported the type of income based leave now proposed by this government. Reference to “best practice” has referred to the high end of income and the duration of the leave.

    The divide here now appears to be only partisan (ALP vs Liberal) as even the Greens support a PPL scheme that provides income support for those earning about 60+% above average incomes.

  106. April 13, 2014 10:51 am

    Tony’s PPL scheme is different in that he wants to make sure that comfortably wealthy “women of calibre” aren’t disadvantaged.

  107. egg permalink
    April 13, 2014 11:05 am

    ‘Ever thought there could be a reason for that, egg?’

    Political orientation, blatant vulgar bias is pathetic whether its the Guardian or Bolter.

  108. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 13, 2014 11:05 am

    also, l don`t know if you noticed, but via a `money-go-round`, Mr-Rabbits offer IS a taxpayer welfare arrangement,

    yes, i have noticed that it will be taxpayer funded and not big business funded as he promised [another broken promise, not widely acknowledged].

    The divide here now appears to be only partisan (ALP vs Liberal) as even the Greens support a PPL scheme that provides income support for those earning about 60+% above average incomes.

    I support a generous scheme for all working women too, but when you break it down, is this the right time for it? We are supposedly in a financial crisis and so much is going to be taken from much poorer people with the excuse of ‘we can’t afford it’. I’d much rather see a fully funded gonski, NDIS and NBN, these are things to benefit all australians and progress us as a nation.

    I don’t support this scheme where a few big earning women will gain most at the expense of killing other much needed services to benefit all. If we could have it all, without taking funding and services from others more needy, I wouldn’t have a problem with it.

  109. April 13, 2014 11:07 am

    The divide here now appears to be only partisan (ALP vs Liberal) the gulf between the `haves` and `haves-not`. The `casual`/low-earning check-out chick, waitress and shop-assistants will suddenly lose their 3or4 shifts of 4-hours/day the minute they try and `claim` any `maternity` pay, while their 6-figure sisters that are already `well-off` in comparison, will get to cash-in a little bit more.

  110. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    April 13, 2014 11:10 am

    It’s a paradox, just imagine if-

    • Gillard had announced a PPL scheme that paid all working women, regardless of professional status, their income for 6 months
    • She said it would be funded by taxing big business
    • Said it was a scheme that would place Australia along side Scandinavian countries in terms of progressive social policy
    • Abbott said it’s an outrageous level of middle class welfare
    • Abolished it and replaced it with payment of a minimum wage scheme
    • Stopped having it funded by big business
    • Put the burden back on ordinary taxpayers

    …In that alternative reality, I think ALP barrackers would have had apoplexy. This mirror image of the current ALP policy (if adopted by Abbott) would have been evidence of his-
    • Catholicism
    • Preference to favour big business
    • Hatred of ordinary taxpayers
    • Misogyny
    • Love of teabagz

  111. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    April 13, 2014 11:15 am

    (and personally I agree with AO, I think Abbott’s scheme is too generous in the current circumstances, but the ALP’s is a cop out)

  112. April 13, 2014 11:15 am

    “Love of teabags”

    I’m more of a loose leaf man myself…

  113. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    April 13, 2014 11:19 am

    “Love of Teabags”

    I find camomile is better after a night of red.

  114. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 13, 2014 11:23 am

    Someone may be able to correct me if i’m wrong on this, but another reason that I don’t like this scheme is the fact that it is discriminatory. I read somewhere that men [often the higher earner] will not be allowed the option to take up the leave instead of women. This saves a shit load of money in the scheme but also forces the woman out of the workforce, it doesn’t give an option of choice. Would that be ideological?

    I haven’t heard much about that particular gender discrimination in the public debate and don’t know if it’s true. Has the planned policy been made public?

  115. April 13, 2014 11:23 am

    well tinfoil tom, my memory of Joolya towards poorer women was she was a cnut that cut single mother welfare, and fcuked them about with stupid programs, that many needed to find child-care to do, which cost them more than they fcuking earned, and they went even further backwards financially,

    and Mr-Rabbit joined Joolya in being a cnut too

  116. April 13, 2014 11:29 am

    men [often the higher earner] will not be allowed the option to take up the leave instead of women #correct

  117. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 13, 2014 11:37 am

    men [often the higher earner] will not be allowed the option to take up the leave instead of women #correct

    then it is discriminatory.

    And what about reb? What if he and partner decided to have a baby, is one of them allowed to claim parental maternity leave?

  118. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    April 13, 2014 11:39 am

    Abbott’s scheme looks more like that the Productivity Commission benchmarked, than the ALP’s “starting point”

  119. April 13, 2014 11:45 am

    ”””then it is discriminatory.”””

    l don`t think so, doesn`t `discrimination` end where the `biological-reality` rubber hits the road.? Men can`t `birth` children, Women can`t `sire` children, be sperm donors.

    I would suspect `surrogates` for gays, or those women giving up for adoption, would be entitled.

  120. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 13, 2014 11:55 am

    l don`t think so, doesn`t `discrimination` end where the `biological-reality` rubber hits the road.?

    Why call it Parental Leave if there isn’t a parental choice option? It’s an old fashioned Maternity Leave – keeping women at home, not giving them a choice. The male partner might just want to be at home with the kid, the woman may prefer to work than be at home. Why not support choices that best suit the family?

  121. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 13, 2014 12:03 pm

    FFS, why must we reinforce the establishment view of parenthood. Let people choose to do what is best for them. A woman may have to ‘birth’ the baby but she may not be especially maternal in instinct, let the male be stay at home and bond if he wants, it’s all good for the kid.

  122. April 13, 2014 12:04 pm

    ”””’keeping women at home, not giving them a choice.”””

    l don`t think it is `compulsory` to take it,

    but come`on armchair, we both know Mr-Rabbit is a dud, and if he somehow `even` manages to get this thru both houses, of course he will fcuk it up spectacularly, along with plenty of other stuff

  123. April 13, 2014 12:17 pm

    ”””reinforce the establishment view of parenthood”””

    you do realize Mr-Rabbit is just following the desires of women of `caliber` on this topic, and they too, are `establishment`

  124. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 13, 2014 12:24 pm

    l don`t think it is `compulsory` to take it,

    They’d be stoopid not to – funny how social engineering is always an accusation thrown at any progessive policies yet as soon as the conservatives are in power, it is all they ever do. Apparently there’s only one ‘right’ way for australian society – the patriarchy and bigotry of the 50’s!

  125. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 13, 2014 12:48 pm

    you do realize Mr-Rabbit is just following the desires of women of `caliber` on this topic, and they too, are `establishment`

    We are all ‘establishment’ unless we opt out of society [or society tosses us out].

    The parents of calibre desire private nannies so that their children have all the benefits of home except their actual parents, at taxpayer [not workplace or personal ] expense of course.

  126. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    April 13, 2014 12:54 pm

    l don`t think it is `compulsory` to take it,

    Now that is nonsense… the government provides a benefit from the revenue it raises, and the guidance is that maybe people shouldn’t bother to “take it”.

  127. TB Queensland permalink
    April 13, 2014 12:57 pm

    A woman may have to ‘birth’ the baby but she may not be especially maternal in instinct, let the male be stay at home and bond if he wants, it’s all good for the kid.

    An expanded Child Endowment system would do that … “pay” the child via the parents bank A/C and let the family decide … and each Australian child is equal … no matter where they are born …

    The old system I grew up under was in fact far fairer than today’s mish mash of ideas …

    … if you had a child you were paid so much a fortnight in child support allowance … have another child you got a little more etc …

    I do confess, our kids’ child endowment initially paid for our meat bill! And, The Minister, did stay at home (by choice) so we survived week to week …
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .

    OT, but our neighbours have just had their fourth daughter! They range from about eight yo down … the daily screaming drives me up the wall! I can’t wait until they’re all in their teens … 🙂

  128. TB Queensland permalink
    April 13, 2014 12:59 pm

    oops missed the sarc alert on that last sentence …

  129. April 13, 2014 1:18 pm

    While l still think Mr-Rabbit will jettison it, of fcuk it right up,

    ””’keeping women at home, not giving them a choice.””

    l tend to think this is not quite the problem today either, but is the feminista battle of yester-year, say 1950s,

    in the 1950s the majority of women were chained to the kitchen etc, just as the feminista complain about, and the family/children lost one parent, usually dad/male to the corporate, economic machinery,

    but dad/male earned enough to finance the family,

    During the 1980s/90s dad/males no longer earned enough to finance the family, so the children have now lost `both` parents to the corporate/economic machinery, and real and meaningful `choice` has been removed from `both` parents, particularly those at the economic bottom,

    (our tinfoilers will now wail otherwise, along corporate promotional lines, watch 4corners on my abc this week)

  130. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 13, 2014 1:37 pm

    If abbott does not allow males to access the PPL, it discriminates against both partners to make their own parenting choices, to suit their own circumstances in effect, it forces the [usually] lower paid female to be at home raising the kids and also forces father to remain in workforce, continuing the patriarchal tradition.
    Simple as that.

  131. egg permalink
    April 13, 2014 1:47 pm

    I agree with Kitty’s sentiment, Third Way Dreaming.

  132. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 13, 2014 1:53 pm

    If it were a true paternity leave and a policy of equality it would give the choice.

    See how the swedes do it. I’m not sure if it’s the swedes or another scandinavian country where the father has to take mandatory leave, which makes it true equality of the genders.

    http://www.smh.com.au/national/paid-parental-leave-how-swedish-mums-and-dads-do-it-20140319-352gj.html

    PS I do note the error in this article, it says it is paid by the 1.5% levy on business, we will have a business tax cut of 1.5% making it in reality a taxpayer funded policy.

  133. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 13, 2014 2:04 pm

    you do realize Mr-Rabbit is just following the desires of women of `caliber` on this topic, and they too, are `establishment`

    On reflection, I don’t agree with that. Women of calibre would also want the freedom to choose the way the leave is utilised eg some might want to share it equally with partner. It is these non choices that restrict both genders in the workforce. Doesn’t matter if they support the established system or not.

  134. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 13, 2014 2:16 pm

    I agree with Kitty’s sentiment,

    is that a first? 😯

    The third way imo, is just capitulation to the neoliberal and capitalist agenda. It is what has seen labor become the ‘soft’ version of the liberal party and made us all slaves to corporate/govt control and treated as enemies of the state if we dissent. It is all that is wrong with labor today and why we need a new progressive party.

  135. egg permalink
    April 13, 2014 3:21 pm

    ‘is that a first?’

    Yeah.

    ‘slaves to corporate/govt control’

    With the Communists about to flood the country with state run business, there is no room left for a progressive party.

    Is the Third Way just an urban myth?

  136. April 13, 2014 3:22 pm

    l still think mr-rabbit is just running a `side-show` with ppl,

    ”””””reflection, I don’t agree with that. Women of calibre””””””
    caliber=albrechtsen, credlin, and other `approved` tory-girls, not the lowly, low-paid waitress or shopkeep that l mentioned earlier,

    the true””’freedom to choose””’ for (fe/male, family) is best done by folks having jobs that they can support their families with, not a `breeding`program of welfare and bonus,

    it just seems so perverse that at the bottom, welfare mums got a head-kicking, and won`t be getting any ppl,

    while women on 150K, and their males that `usually` earn more on 151K, making a `household` income of 301K, will be showered in cash,

    as far as l`m concerned, people making 301K.p.a should be deciding when/if they breed and finance it themselves, they have absolutely no real requirement for taxpayer welfare

  137. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    April 13, 2014 3:32 pm

    International comparisons can help identify whether Abbott’s scheme is overly generous or not.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave

  138. April 13, 2014 3:42 pm

    those outside the tinfoil cubicle realize that paying the wealthy to breed while pushing up the working plebs retirement age, or destroying national infrastructure in the name of `cost-cutting` is just flat-out wrong #teabags

  139. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    April 13, 2014 3:45 pm

    Women’s Electoral Lobby = teabgaz (apparently)

  140. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    April 13, 2014 3:48 pm

    The Greens PPL policy = teabagz (apparently)

  141. egg permalink
    April 13, 2014 4:00 pm

    ‘…destroying national infrastructure in the name of `cost-cutting` is economic rationalism and I hope aunty is well and truly gutted.

  142. egg permalink
    April 13, 2014 4:23 pm

    “Obviously we’ve got to have a sustainable welfare system and there is a serious question as to whether our current welfare system, which was designed in the 20th Century, is sustainable in the 21st Century when we have significant demographic challenges,” Hockey said.

    ABC

  143. April 13, 2014 5:43 pm

    I find camomile is
    better remotely bearable
    after a night of diluted in a bottle of red.

    ‘…destroying national infrastructure in the name of `cost-cutting` is economic rationalism and I hope aunty is well and truly gutted.

    What does that ridiculous statement even mean? The ABC is our part of our national infrastructure

  144. egg permalink
    April 13, 2014 6:08 pm

    There is this elephant in the room and the ABC needs to be rectified.

  145. egg permalink
    April 13, 2014 6:38 pm

    And a reminder, it was a Labor government which introduced outsourcing.

  146. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 13, 2014 6:44 pm

    There is this elephant in the room and the ABC needs to be rectified.

    what elephant is that? Your assertion is not backed by public opinion, no matter how loudly bolt and the shock jocks may screech on behalf of one political party.

  147. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 13, 2014 6:48 pm

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/nationals-mps-warn-against-abc-budget-cuts-20140413-zqu8z.html

    At a recent senate estimates hearing, ABC managing director Mark Scott could not guarantee any services would be spared if the broadcaster’s funding is cut.
    He also said that he – and the ABC audience – would hold Mr Abbott at his word not to cut funding…

    Abbott promised.

  148. TB Queensland permalink
    April 13, 2014 6:58 pm

    Your assertion is not backed by public opinion, no matter how loudly bolt and the shock jocks may screech on behalf of one political party.

    Yep, KL, its what makes, egg sound so annoyingly ignorant so frustrating …

  149. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 13, 2014 8:49 pm

  150. April 13, 2014 8:52 pm

    There is this elephant in the room and the ABC needs to be rectified.
    .

    What does that mean? Hillarious the Nats suck the libs dick and complain how southern cross and macquarie buy up all the regional media, then centralise editorial sacking the local staff and disenfranchising people from local content. Then the ABC start the “ABC Open” initiative and expand local content, training , jobs and then the fuckers want to chop the ABC? No wonder they have Angry Anderson as a candidate… And the greens are the dickheads? ROTFPMSL This government is the government of faux nose lead surreptitious ideology subversives; shrilling mandate as they piss on all the aspirant middle class lemmings they promised to shower in champagne fucktard spleen vents and duly issue licence to free hate screech

    And a reminder, it was a Labor government which introduced outsourcing.

    How bout you stop self saucing?

    Your assertion is not backed by public opinion, no matter how loudly bolt and the shock jocks may screech on behalf of one political party.
    Yep, KL, its what makes, egg sound so annoyingly ignorant and frustrating …

    And cryptic.. Dunno from what I can tell he hasn’t taken his meds, is over tired and can’t forgive Aunty for reporting the fact that 99.99999999% of scientists think the earth is round and Abbott, Monkton and Bolt (who doesn’t but just says he does because he’s a self serving Murdoch rimming attention whore ) think its flat and peachy 🙂

  151. April 13, 2014 9:28 pm

    The Great Abbott/L-NP LIE: A rock solid ironclad absolute assurance few days before the election. #auspol pic.twitter.com/9N1OXEtGNh— Tony The Geek Rulz (@geeksrulz) April 13, 2014

    Hey AO whats that over Tones shoulder his conscious?

  152. egg permalink
    April 13, 2014 10:00 pm

    CC Propaganda and Mass Delusion is the Elephant

  153. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 14, 2014 12:37 am

    Hey AO whats that over Tones shoulder his conscious?

    nah, he hasn’t got one of those, he’s unconscionable. I think that tweet is photoshopped from abbott’s carbon tax pledge/dickhead blood oath. He did promise to make no cuts to ABC & SBS though.

    Poor old wallender, I don’t think he can take much more!

  154. April 14, 2014 3:54 am

    as Mr-Eleventy prepare teh-budget, l think we can safely assume that,

    1-teh-voter will receive the arse-fcuking they didn`t vote for,

    2-Ultimo is cacking itself, as my ABC will receive the molesting they deserve, by inflicting on the audience its `fake-balance` routine, instead of the `truth` and the `facts` voters needed in the first place,

    3-my SBS will be caught unfairly in the slash and burn of the `culture-wars`, which are really the domain of Limited-News Tea-Trolls, and to `some` extent, my ABC

    4-Dumpty`s tinfoil will remain tightly wrapped.

  155. April 14, 2014 5:07 am

    5-No wisdom will penetrate yomm`s Cubicle. #teabags

  156. April 14, 2014 5:39 am

    armchair”””””’The third way imo, is just capitulation to the neoliberal and capitalist agenda. It is what has seen labor become the ‘soft’ version(teabag-lite) of the liberal party and made us all slaves to corporate/govt control and treated as enemies of the state if we dissent.”””””’

    #Fully agree armchair

    .

    armchair”””””””””’It is all that is wrong with labor today and why we need a new progressive party.”””

    while l somewhat agree, and understand ya`point armchair,
    l don`t see how a new/3rd major party would not just end-up being another owned and operated `organ` of the corporations, just like the current duopoly is.

    l think what `voters` would just end-up with is a `3-way` non-choice, instead of the current `2-way` non-choice. 😦

  157. egg permalink
    April 14, 2014 6:40 am

    ‘FORMER ABC chairman Maurice Newman has questioned what action the ABC board took over several recent controversies, including The Chaser’s skit depicting The Australian’s Chris Kenny as a “dog f. ker”, saying its broadcast was “astonishing” and warranted an apology.

    ‘Mr Newman, who finished his term as chairman in March 2012, to be replaced by James Spigelman, said the skit, now the subject of a court case, was tasteless and wrong and did not uphold the standards of what the community expects from a public broadcaster.’

    Markson / Oz

  158. egg permalink
    April 14, 2014 7:26 am

    ‘The third way imo, is just capitulation to the neoliberal and capitalist agenda.’

    The Third Way was scrapped on 18 September last year. ‘The Australian Social Inclusion Unit was disbanded by the Coalition. Whilst researching for this article, we could find only a handful of articles that mentioned this fact. It went through the media relatively unnoticed.’

  159. April 14, 2014 7:52 am

    #teabags

  160. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    April 14, 2014 8:42 am

    Yeah!

    That Wayne, he’s so smart!

  161. Neil of Sydney permalink
    April 14, 2014 8:43 am

    ” but the dividend for Aussies will be savage cuts to jobs, health & education

    Who knows?? Murdoch has been around for a long time. Has Rupert caused cuts to health and education before??

    Furthermore Swan is an idiot. Even furthermore Swan put lots of things on the credit card and won votes because of it. Most people can put stuff on the credit card but it has to be paid back eventually. But Labor people do not worry about debt because they think of their big fat stomachs first, second and third.

  162. April 14, 2014 8:51 am

    dumpty April 13, 2014 1:47 pm”””””””””””I agree with Kitty’s sentiment, Third Way Dreaming.””””””’

    .

    dumpty April 14, 2014 7:26 am”””””””””’The Third Way was scrapped on 18 September last year. ‘The Australian Social Inclusion Unit was disbanded by the Coalition.””””””

    #Tinfoil

  163. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 14, 2014 9:40 am

    Tony’s “No Cuts” pledge is looking very shaky! Maybe he should go the whole hog and up the GST as well! Either way his credibility will be shredded.

    I wonder what his excuse will be? We already knew Labor had fucked the economy and blown out national debt. We already knew a demographic bubble was coming. And despite that he promised no cuts and PPL. Looks like both parties believe voters don’t care about cynical lies politicians use to get into power.

  164. egg permalink
    April 14, 2014 9:49 am

    #Tinfoil

    I agree with Kitty’s comments that fathers should be given the opportunity to stay home and raise the kids if the wife is earning more than him.

  165. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    April 14, 2014 9:54 am

    BREAKING NEWS! THEY WERE WRONG! (AGAIN)

    There was a time that those of us who suggested that union hacks and factional warlords wielded an unhealthy and unsatisfactory level of control over the ALP were “paid Liberal plants”, “trolls” “knew nothing”, “didn’t provide any eveidence”.

    Miglo, Adrian, BTolputt, Tom R, Min were among those who denied the corrupt and undemocratic practices that ran ALP preselection, party conferences, policy platform development. They would argue endlessly that there was no evidence to support the suggestion that hacks and warlords ran the party.

    These days all of them have self-selected out of the debate, and banned anyone who would remind them that they were wrong. These days there is just about no one in the ALP who publically supports the current structure that delivers all the benefits to hacks and warlords at the expense of the actual ALP membership.

    The latest example-

    LABOR’S failure to embrace structural reform has deepened divisions in the party’s youth movement, sparking a farcical split at a national conference on the weekend where Left and Right factions held rival meetings.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/reform-failure-splits-young-labor/story-fn59niix-1226883115070#

  166. TB Queensland permalink
    April 14, 2014 10:19 am

    Poor old wallender, I don’t think he can take much more!

    Ah … another connoisseur of professional TV dramas … My second viewing of the series … Brannagh is brilliant! And that fkn phone – whoever thought of that ringtone deserves a bonus – annoying as …

    … the original Swedish shows are great too if SBS ever run them again …

    … and some people want to get rid of the ABC … phhttt, I say.

    .

  167. TB Queensland permalink
    April 14, 2014 10:23 am

    Looks like both parties believe voters don’t care about cynical lies politicians use to get into power.

    You sound surprised 😯

  168. egg permalink
    April 14, 2014 10:33 am

    ‘… and some people want to get rid of the ABC … phhttt, I say.’

    Not get rid of, simply rectify the flaws.

  169. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 14, 2014 10:41 am

    Not really surprised, TB. It was fairly clear that this was going to happen when the promises were made. Sad, but not surprised.

  170. April 14, 2014 11:11 am

    l think what `voters` would just end-up with is a `3-way` non-choice, instead of the current `2-way` non-choice. 😦

    This is something that I’m really interested in, changing the system so people can have a good life, still prosper and be respected. People should be valued and looked after in their old age. I think our elderly are treated abysmally especially at a time in their lives when they are almost as vulnerable as babies. I think that what people want is completely overlooked by politicians who falsely say that that corporate australia’s interests are the same as ours, that somehow giving more to them makes life better for all – it doesn’t.

    How do we make it better? That is where the thinking needs to be, not the old two party system selling the same tired old stuff and driving a public debate only to the issues they want to speak about [the sideshow] while ignoring the real problem which is the complete corruption, cronyism and collusion that infects the entire political system.

    We are a prosperous nation full of ugly selfish people who, if they are not ripping someone off, have their noses so deep in the trough, they talk out of their arses.
    Currently, we work ourselves into ill health so that politicians and corporate predators [along with their sycophants] can enjoy a life of privilege beyond measure.

    I want us all to have a good life, to feel worth, value and respect as contributing people who can then share in the wealth that they help to create through their lifelong labours.

    That’s why I like what they are saying in uk and europe about a good society
    http://www.compassonline.org.uk/

    look at how the most pressing thing to face us today is being ignored and deliberately sabotaged by all who have it in their power to do something about it – climate change. Those people should be rounded up and thrown in jail for reckless and criminal, negligent, non action over a known threat to a future generation’s life and well being.

    I agree with Kitty’s comments that fathers should be given the opportunity to stay home and raise the kids if the wife is earning more than him.

    I didn’t mean it quite that way, I don’t care if the male is earning more money than the wife, he should be able to take the parental leave if he chooses. Don’t have a parental leave policy that limits the choices of parents and forces women into the stay at home role which advantages males in the workforce.

    I’m starting to think that it should be a mandatory sharing of parental leave, that might be the quickest way to change society for the better!

  171. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 14, 2014 11:19 am

    … the original Swedish shows are great too if SBS ever run them again …

    Love the sbs ‘the killing’ and ‘the bridge’ too. I bought the entire series of the killing.
    Borgen is a wonderful political drama that I’m hoping will have another series.

    Those people who can’t tolerate subtitles don’t know what they’re missing 😉

  172. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 14, 2014 11:39 am

    … and some people want to get rid of the ABC … phhttt, I say.

    yeah, let’s have more run fatty run, my supermarket rules, plastic surgery is normal, reno investment nation.

  173. April 14, 2014 11:49 am

    I enjoyed Les Revenants (The Returned) on SBS – much better than that US crap remake on commercial TV…

  174. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 14, 2014 11:54 am

    I enjoyed Les Revenants

    I’ve taped that reb but haven’t had a chance to watch it yet. What’s the gist of it?

    same with the killing, why do the US machine have to make their own ‘sanitised and ruined for a US audience’ version of everything?

  175. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 14, 2014 12:13 pm

    The only real value of TV/Foxtel is live sport! Everything else is on the internet.

  176. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 14, 2014 12:33 pm

    “why do the US machine have to make their own ‘sanitised and ruined for a US audience’ version of everything?”

    Because people are prepared to pay for it.

    Not everyone is an interlektchewal who gets off on their own sense of sophistication, sitting through foreign films and pontificating about the nuances like that insufferable arse, David Stretton. Unlike Bob Carr, some people just want to be entertained without subtitles. Not to mention better acting, more cultural relevance and better production values.

    It all began with Shakespeare ripping off Euripides with Hamlet. Bollywood is re-make central.

    A lot of musical traditions are very much richer for the borrowing and re-making that is central to them. The blues for example. Or jazz standards. In reggae they call it versioning and have the great expression – “there are no truths only versions”.

  177. April 14, 2014 12:50 pm

    “I’ve taped that reb but haven’t had a chance to watch it yet. What’s the gist of it?”

    If I tell you it’d spoil it… It’s best to watch it unaware of what’s going to unfold…

  178. Tony permalink
    April 14, 2014 1:01 pm

    Speaking of TV, spotted this slogan on computer nerd’s tee-shirt during new Comedy Channel show, ‘Silicon Valley’:

    I KNOW H.T.M.L.*

    (How to meet ladies)

  179. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 14, 2014 1:08 pm

    Not to mention better acting, more cultural relevance and better production values.

    better acting? not sure about that, some of the US made stuff is pure sleepwalk acting and makes you more aware of the fakeness of it all, besides the plotlines being oh so samey that you know just what is going to be said next. More culturally appropriate for western thinking…because westerners just cannot appreciate a different culture? Better production values – as perceived through a western monocultural prism where the only foreigners are terrorists and people to be suspicious of? Where no one needs to think too hard and there is always a feel good ending.

    Not everyone is an interlektchewal who gets off on their own sense of sophistication, sitting through foreign films and pontificating about the nuances…

    Not everyone likes to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator and spoon fed western propaganda disguised as entertainment.

    Hollywood just wants sure earners which is why all we get is remakes of old movies or rubbish sequels of a winner. Not much creativity in that really.

  180. TB Queensland permalink
    April 14, 2014 1:19 pm

    Not everyone is an interlektchewal who gets off on their own sense of sophistication, sitting through foreign films and pontificating about the nuances…

    … intellectual, sophistication … pontificating … we were discussing, Wallander, a TV series made in the UK … have you watched it?

    … sounds like you’d love, “Noah” …

  181. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 14, 2014 2:06 pm

    “Where no one needs to think too hard and there is always a feel good ending.”

    What is wrong with that? That is precisely what some people want in their movies. I like romantic comedies – Spanglish, Groundhog Day, Maid In Manhattan, The Hot Chick, Freaky Friday, that sort of thing.

    “we were discussing, Wallander,”

    I wasn’t. I was discussing the statement I quoted in my comment, which was a general comment about re-makes. If I had wanted to address Wallender specifically I would have quoted that bit, or at least mentioned it by name. I watched a couple of episodes of Wallender and got bored with it.

    The only series I have watched from end to end is The Wire, although I have probably watched all episodes of the classics – Fawlty Towers, Yes Minister/Prime Minister and Blackadder.

    “… intellectual, sophistication … “

    Actually the expression I used was “sense of sophistication” which is something else entirely.

    “… sounds like you’d love, “Noah” …”

    Unlike some here I wouldn’t pay to see that.

  182. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 14, 2014 2:37 pm

    I get no ‘sense of sophistication’ from a subtitled series or movie, but I get a good deal about another, different culture, which is usually different to how it is portrayed in western stereotyping.
    I hardly think that a danish or swedish series [which is what we were also discussing] is too different from a US made series, european is hardly ‘too foreign’ for us, surely?
    Can’t see the point in not having subtitles, since I can’t speak the language I wouldn’t understand what it’s about, it’s really not a hardship to read those big letters on the screen. The translations into US-speak often make a lot of difference though and doesn’t resemble the original.
    There is no snobbery [is that the word you are looking for?] in liking some subtitled TV series showing on our free TV [that is what we were discussing, not western culture values]. You never stop looking for an angle to heap shit on others and never stop judging and condemning according to your own prejudices do you?

    I don’t quite understand what your problem is? Do we all have to watch the US made shows because that is more appropriate for our ‘western culture’ or some other idiotic point that I’ve missed like the US takes from others and copies them better because they’ve got much more money to spend on the production 🙄

  183. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 14, 2014 2:47 pm

    That is precisely what some people want in their movies. I like romantic comedies – Spanglish, Groundhog Day, Maid In Manhattan, The Hot Chick, Freaky Friday, that sort of thing.

    Well good for you, do you mind if we watch what we like too?

  184. April 14, 2014 2:50 pm

    I have no idea how people can sit and watch the hours upon hours of mindless shit that passes for “entertainment” on commercial TV.

    I have some interest in foodie type shows but gave up on MKR fairly early on in the piece after witnessing how nasty the whole thing was becoming.

    The only thing I occasionally catch on commercial TV is Million Dollar minute or A Current Affair (especially when they have bogan neighbours having a scrag fight in the street – that’s just pure gold!)…

    But most of commercial TV and so-called “reality TV shows” are just voyeuristic exercises in appealing to our basest instincts.

    Give me ABC and SBS any day over that mindless shite!

  185. egg permalink
    April 14, 2014 2:55 pm

    ‘Those people should be rounded up and thrown in jail for reckless and criminal, negligent, non action over a known threat to a future generation’s life and well being.’

    Mmmm…….

  186. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 14, 2014 3:03 pm

    Give me ABC and SBS any day over that mindless shite!

    you must be an interlektchewal who gets off on their own sense of sophistication, sitting through foreign films and pontificating about the nuances…

  187. TB Queensland permalink
    April 14, 2014 3:16 pm

    I don’t quite understand what your problem is?

    That about sums it up, I guess … I’ve been trying to figure that for some time now … chips anyone?

    As for one of the best quality foreign films made – “Red Cliffs” has to be on my list (the full hour version – not the edited for the US version) …

  188. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    April 14, 2014 3:19 pm

    But most of commercial TV and so-called “reality TV shows” are just voyeuristic exercises in appealing to our basest instincts.

    I find sating my basest instincts quite appealing!

    (why isn’t there a reality TV show about wine tasting? I don’t bother with any that involve gardening or renovating, all those people seem to get dust in their hair or dirt under their fingernails)

  189. TB Queensland permalink
    April 14, 2014 3:26 pm

    (the full 4+ hour version – not the edited for the US version) …

  190. April 14, 2014 3:31 pm

    Well its quite fucking simple… The ABC leads and all the other fuckers follow. If the nationion is dosed up of fiberal fabels and fucktardism, its hardly Aunties fault now is it. If there are significant cuts to the ABC…The production industry will …I repeat willlllllllll collapse. Then its Fuckwits like Locky Murdocy running the network thrilling us all with cucumber slicing ads for coles dressed up as content augmented by a litany of mindless ads for shit nobody wants or needs…… Your choice.

    And another thing all you Aunty hating, ant brained, fiberal bum sniffers…do you have any conceptual inclination of the infrastructure owned and operated by the ABC in comparison to the Con mercial infomercial vestibules of repainted coca colan-isation?…anybody?
    Cue 1 hour of crickets

    Fuck ..people have become dumber since Abbbot became PM..it gave them a licence to hate lie stop thinking give up

  191. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 14, 2014 3:41 pm

    apparently mediocrity is something to aspire to 😉

  192. April 14, 2014 3:51 pm

    “apparently mediocrity is something to aspire to”

    Not that that’s such a bad thing. If one has low expectations of one’s self then it follows that one is going to be seldom disappointed.

    And what’s more – thrilled with little accomplishments.

  193. April 14, 2014 3:51 pm

    armchair”””””””””””””””look at how the most pressing thing to face us today is being ignored and deliberately sabotaged by all who have it in their power to do something about it – climate change. Those people should be rounded up and thrown in jail for reckless and criminal, negligent, non action over a known threat to a future generation’s life and well being.”””””””””””

    #That is how l feel about the flogging-off of `our` community-owned assets and infrastructure too armchair.

    #agree with the rest of`ya rant too by the way, nice job 🙂

  194. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 14, 2014 3:52 pm

    “Well good for you, do you mind if we watch what we like too?”

    Agreed. In fact that was my point – why attack US re-makes? Or movies “where no one needs to think too hard and there is always a feel good ending.” It is one thing to enjoy foreign films. It is quite another to do so and at the same time peer down your nose at the hoi polloi who are happy to part with their hard-earned to watch something you consider to be less culturally enriching.

  195. April 14, 2014 4:00 pm

    “It is quite another to do so and at the same time peer down your nose at the hoi polloi who are happy to part with their hard-earned to watch something you consider to be less culturally enriching.”

    What? You mean like “Noah?”

    LOL…

  196. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 14, 2014 4:01 pm

    “Those people should be rounded up and thrown in jail for reckless and criminal, negligent, non action over a known threat to a future generation’s life and well being.”

    Ah, the compassion. To get a Good Society we need gulags and re-education camps.

  197. April 14, 2014 4:04 pm

    armchair”””””””””””’why do the US machine have to make their own ‘sanitised and ruined for a US audience’ version of everything?””””

    1-coz somebody can make a profit off it by doing `re-make`,

    2-coz majority of teh-usa citizens are `culturally` ignorant, (by_design),

    there is political policy to have teh-usa `culture` be the dominating culture in the world,

    this way backed by teh-usa network-news,
    ””’if its not america, its not news””’

    thus, they possess a very culturally `dumb` citizenry, that have needed to have even British show `george-and-mildred` and `the-office` remade to fit teh-usa culture

  198. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 14, 2014 4:07 pm

    “What? You mean like “Noah?””

    Haven’t seen that, but I wouldn’t mock anyone who did enjoy it.

  199. April 14, 2014 4:12 pm

    ”””””’Ah, the compassion. To get a Good Society we need gulags and re-education camps.””””

    Didn`t John-W get us a time-share arrangement with Dubya for off-shore gulags, before we built our own.

  200. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 14, 2014 4:18 pm

    “1-coz somebody can make a profit off it by doing `re-make`,”

    That is the way the market works. People indicate with their wallets what they like and some capitalist makes it.

    Socialism is people lined up for bread. Capitalism is bread lined up for people!

    “2-coz majority of teh-usa citizens are `culturally` ignorant, (by_design), … thus, they possess a very culturally `dumb` citizenry”

    QED. Apparently people can’t have different views or tastes. There always a caring compassionate eltist to put them down. Or worse still, to be ‘concerned’ about them.

  201. TB Queensland permalink
    April 14, 2014 4:21 pm

    Had a bad day, sb … ?

  202. TB Queensland permalink
    April 14, 2014 4:24 pm

    Socialism is people lined up for bread. Capitalism is bread lined up for people!

    Mmmmm … mixing metaphors …

  203. April 14, 2014 4:27 pm

    “but I wouldn’t mock anyone who did enjoy it.

    I would, with gusto in fact…

    But then that’s just me.

  204. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 14, 2014 4:32 pm

    “Had a bad day, sb … ?”

    Nah. That was Friday.

    “would, with gusto in fact…

    But then that’s just me.”

    In a malicious way? Or just for fun?

  205. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 14, 2014 4:39 pm
  206. April 14, 2014 4:41 pm

    “In a malicious way? Or just for fun?”

    Probably both… That’s usually how I roll…

  207. April 14, 2014 4:49 pm

    #using `george and mildred` as the example, as l have seen both versions,

    the uk-version was quite good, teh-usa version was crap when compared to the uk-version, but the uk-version wouldn`t fly in teh-usa on the `cultural` differences,

    if Aust was as culturally isolated/dumb, they would have needed to make an au-version of george and mildred, if the kiwis were as dumb culturally, they would have needed to make an nz-flavor of G&M,

    but they didn`t, Aust and NZ had the UK-version of G&M

  208. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 14, 2014 4:55 pm

    “Probably both…

    Me too. That’s usually how I troll…

  209. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 14, 2014 4:55 pm

    I should add: 🙂

  210. April 14, 2014 4:58 pm

    this is closer to the `ideals`,

    Capitalism is bread for `some` people!
    Socialism is bread for `all` people.

  211. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 14, 2014 5:11 pm

    “Ideals” ???

    Capitalism doesn’t have ideals. And that is a good thing. It leaves “ideals” up to individuals.

  212. April 14, 2014 5:18 pm

    ”””Capitalism doesn’t have ideals.”””’

    #Guffaw

    ”””Socialism is people lined up for bread. Capitalism is bread lined up for people!”””

    #An ideal spouted by those of the capital-faith.

  213. egg permalink
    April 14, 2014 5:32 pm

    ‘The production industry will …I repeat willlllllllll collapse.’

    The free market will naturally fill the gap vacated by the monolith, simply on the basis of supply and demand.

  214. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 14, 2014 5:34 pm

    A statement of the bleeding obvious, more like.

    The socialisation of the means of production has been a massive failure whereever it has been tried.

  215. April 14, 2014 5:37 pm

    ””””””If there are significant cuts to the ABC…The production industry will …I repeat willlllllllll collapse.”””””””

    #Fully agree Ricky, but we already know what the teabags think about working people and their jobs.

    #Develop a sense of humor. l have found `our` mindless Tinfoilers chanting against my ABC highly amusing, because at the same time Murdoch-Jr has been flushing Network-10`s value down the crapper. Even rupert`s very-own zombies won`t watch the the `humiliation-game-shows` Murdoch-Jr has flooded Network-10 with, the zombies prefer to watch my ABC too.

  216. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 14, 2014 5:38 pm

    “The free market will naturally fill the gap vacated by the monolith, simply on the basis of supply and demand.”

    That is precisely what he is worried about. Imagine the calamity if the lefty luvvie arty farty types couldn’t sponge of the public purse!

  217. TB Queensland permalink
    April 14, 2014 5:38 pm

    It leaves “ideals” up to individuals.

    D’ja reckon? I watched the old doco on Enron last night … that fks that little learned statement right up too …

    I noticed you ignored my comment about mixed metaphors earlier … too interlektchewal for you …

    Capitalism doesn’t have ideals … capitalism is a concept not a person … people have ideals … still mixing them metaphors …

  218. TB Queensland permalink
    April 14, 2014 5:41 pm

    The socialisation of the means of production has been a massive failure whereever it has been tried.

    What does that even mean … the bosses are going to build shit?

    Imagine the calamity if the lefty luvvie arty farty types couldn’t sponge of the public purse!

    Or shifty trolls changing the subject yet again …

  219. April 14, 2014 5:41 pm

    People wallets bread, capitalism 101…. which side of ABnotts pamphlet was that on? was that i the fine print.

    Capitalism doesn’t have ideals. …. I beg to differ, the fiberals were selling brooms with sweeping statements like that pre election “Big Bill board Promises of sweeping changes” but no change then ironclad mandate…..

    Then they deliver the broomstick and didn’t even extend us the courtesy of lubricating it all with anything more than rhetorical proctology 🙄

    Dont worry the market will fix it… #coles #woolies #onetel #crowncasino #aha #riotinto #clivepalmer and the five daughters

  220. TB Queensland permalink
    April 14, 2014 5:45 pm

    I await the long c&p and convoluted attack on anyone and anything who posted in the last six hours …

    Hosting a meeting so I’ll be back tamorra … all being well … 😉

  221. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 14, 2014 5:46 pm

    “What does that even mean … “

    “Socialism is a social and economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy”

    It always fails.

  222. April 14, 2014 5:53 pm

    ””””I watched the old doco on Enron last night””””(missed_it)

    #TB, was that the doco about enron phoning powers-plants in california to switch off/down power to manipulate stock-price and extort Govt/welfare.?

    __________

    ”””’shifty trolls changing the subject yet again”””

    #seems to happen when we arse-fcuk them with `fact` or `truth` 🙂

  223. TB Queensland permalink
    April 14, 2014 5:56 pm

    So where does socialism … as you copied* exist in 21st century?

    And production failed in our society?

    *I prefer YOU comments not someone else’s that you’ve c&p’d …

    What is YOUR understanding … not something you’ve read … in fact what you are quoting is 1950’s propaganda … you’re sixty years behind the times …

  224. TB Queensland permalink
    April 14, 2014 6:02 pm

    #TB, was that the doco about enron phoning powers-plants in california to switch off/down power to manipulate stock-price and extort Govt/welfare.?

    Yes, Tbag … you know the one with the traders saying the little old lady can use fkn candle if she can’t fkn pay and who gives a fk if she can’t afford fkn matches … we’re gonna be rich … and the gloating as a bushfire causes a power blackout ’cause the hedge fund will kick in and make ’em a fortune … and the guy who’s super went from 348,000 to 1200 overnight as the execs traded $116,000,000 of stocks … and on and on … lies lies , deceit and more … long live unregulated capitalism …

    I had to comply with government regs … why do other people think they shouldn’t?

  225. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 14, 2014 6:03 pm

    “I noticed you ignored my comment about mixed metaphors earlier”

    If I ignore your comments it is because I agree with them and nothing more needs to be said or they are too stupid to bother with or they are gratuitously insulting and not even funny.

    I noticed you ignored one of my comments the other day, but I didn’t whine about it like a neglected Dogberry. I just assumed that you ignored it for one or other of the reasons listed above.

  226. April 14, 2014 6:03 pm

    ”””’in fact what you are quoting is 1950′s propaganda”””’
    #Guffaw
    #Based on `ideals`, no less
    .
    ”””’you’re sixty years behind the times”””
    #Teabags ROFL

  227. TB Queensland permalink
    April 14, 2014 6:05 pm

    If I ignore your comments it is because I agree with them

    So you know the difference between socialism and capitalism?

  228. TB Queensland permalink
    April 14, 2014 6:06 pm

    I really have to go – expecting a 12/15 people any second … always fun … 🙂

  229. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 14, 2014 6:08 pm

    “*I prefer YOU comments not someone else’s that you’ve c&p’d … “

    You had my comment to start with, but obviously you didn’t understand it so I copied a standard definiton for you (from Wikipedia as it happens).

    “in fact what you are quoting is 1950′s propaganda … you’re sixty years behind the times …”

    You don’t even know what you are talking about, do you?

  230. April 14, 2014 6:15 pm

    Nice round-up TB, l have seen it before,
    (good to check if there was another doco made)
    the `hedge-fund`, yes that was the word l was trying to figure-out/remember, for the previous comment, 🙂

    the boardroom selling-off stock, while telling the plebs and public to put their `pension` money into the stock is the disgraceful shit that should be regulated, policed and recovered if possible, of course we won`t hear that from yomm`s cubicle

  231. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 14, 2014 6:30 pm

    fascinating
    http://www.bbc.com/news/27018094

  232. egg permalink
    April 14, 2014 6:31 pm

    ‘Fully agree Ricky, but we already know what the teabags think about working people and their jobs.’

    Its only a small number of jobs, that is not the issue, its about culture. ABC production has been outsourced for years and Ricky knows that.

  233. April 14, 2014 6:38 pm

    It always fails…. Dunno Telstra was a nice little cash cow about to embark on a huge proliferation of Fiber to subscriber nodes
    Then Jonnie and the free marketeers declared the virtues of average people owning a company they already owned….
    We were one of the most technologically advanced telecommunications networks in the world…. Now capitalism in the “free market” 16 years on sees us behinr Korea
    Well done free market capitalism….

    Water, roads and Power seem to monuments to the virtue of infrastructure privitisation 🙄
    But socialism is evil.. right?

  234. TB Queensland permalink
    April 14, 2014 6:56 pm

    You don’t even know what you are talking about, do you?

    I copied a standard definiton for you (from Wikipedia as it happens).

    WOW!

    And you do? Might remind you I’ve just visited three People’s Republics … its called experience … and my experience fks the shit out of your “copy” – and its behind the 21st Century too …

    And you still haven’t told me the difference between socialism and capitalism (my guess is you don’t really know) … keep googling … but it won’t help …

  235. TB Queensland permalink
    April 14, 2014 7:01 pm

    ***fascinating***

    In what way, KL, Pistorious’ the biased “live” commentary or the questioning?

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Now capitalism in the “free market” 16 years on sees us behinr Korea

    er, that’s South K, RP, not NK … and SK is tiny and a capitalist country …

  236. April 14, 2014 7:02 pm

    ”””’Its only a small number of jobs,”””’

    moronic statement,
    all those ”””’only a small number of jobs”””’ are adding-up to significant numbers, which is fine if you are welded to receiving welfare crumbs like you are dumpty, but it is a lose-lose-lose situation, where nation, industry and individuals are losing,

    .

    ””’that is not the issue,”””
    Jobs are always an issue, and you display your ignorance to state otherwise dumpty,

    .

    ””its about culture.””WRONG, budgets are about `finance`, which is the trigger to this topic,

    .

    ””’ABC production has been outsourced for years””’Bullshit,

    the `production` at my ABC has always been a mix of local and imported content, your ipa-squawk-point makes a fcuking imbecile of you once again dumpty

  237. egg permalink
    April 14, 2014 7:27 pm

    ‘the `production` at my ABC has always been a mix of local and imported content’

    You are out of your depth, small production companies sprang up when Labor forced aunty to outsource. The most creative effort can be gained when production is market driven, with a strong eye on international sales.

    Essential Media is humming along.

    ‘Jack Irish is an Essential Media and Entertainment production for ABC1; financed with the support of Film Victoria, Screen Australia, ABC Commercial and ZDF Enterprises (Germany).’

  238. egg permalink
    April 14, 2014 7:45 pm

    ‘Jobs are always an issue, and you display your ignorance to state otherwise dumpty,’

    We won’t know until the budget whether there will be any jobs lost. On the matter of culture, I remember a time when people had their favourite stations and it didn’t include the ABC. Too uppity, not racy or flash like the commercials.

    Those days are gone, because of the communications revolution, and we now have a large variety of platforms to choose from.

    My personal bias is well known, so all I’ll ask of Hockey is that he do something with those watermelon/leftoids in the newsroom. Bring back unbiased reporting.

  239. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 14, 2014 7:51 pm

    In what way, KL, Pistorious’ the biased “live” commentary or the questioning?

    The detailed and forensic questioning TB. I’ve never seen a court case before.

  240. April 14, 2014 7:58 pm

    ””””””””’We won’t know until the budget whether there will be any jobs lost.””WRONG again dumpty, #80,000 Jobs have-gone/will-go in the last 7-months.

    .

    ””””””””””’On the matter of culture, I remember a time when people had their favourite stations and it didn’t include the ABC. Too uppity, not racy or flash like the commercials.

    My personal bias is well known, so all I’ll ask of Hockey is that he do something with those watermelon/leftoids in the newsroom.”””

    1-sorry they`re not all watermelons in the news-dept, actually there is quite a few teabags,

    2-l notice your `personal-bias` also prevents you from supporting murdoch-jr over at network-10

  241. egg permalink
    April 14, 2014 8:22 pm

    What the Murdocracy does is none of my concern, its a private organisation. Our ABC needs to wake up to the new realties.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/media/abcs-mark-scott-sorry-over-chris-kenny-sketch/story-e6frg996-1226883705258

  242. egg permalink
    April 14, 2014 8:27 pm

    ‘80,000 Jobs have-gone/will-go in the last 7-months.’

    Link?

  243. April 14, 2014 8:29 pm

    Dumpty you are out of your depth as usual,

    Labor CHANGED CHARTER forcedALLOWING aunty to source FROM small production companies INSTEAD OF EVERTYTHING
    BEING DONE IN-HOUSE

    ____________

    #Imported content is from `other` countries, eg The Bill from uk,

    #Local is content Aust content, lots of abc-radio, qanda, 730report, news24/breakfast, 4corners, all #Local and #in-house

    Don`t know enough about jack-irish(never_seen) but assume it is Aust, so #Local, but NOT in-house, but made by an `external` theatre/production company

  244. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 14, 2014 8:31 pm

    My personal bias is well known, so all I’ll ask of Hockey is that he do something with those watermelon/leftoids in the newsroom. Bring back unbiased reporting.

    If they did that there would be no need to have journos interviewing journos and having a ‘balance’ of different alternating views. I can tell you now, you can’t handle factual reporting, it would blow your cc rubbish to pieces, because the denier view is so minuscule in the grand scheme of things that it wouldn’t rate any time being spent on it.

    You obviously ignore all the reports that state that ABC is not biased and is the most trusted news source. You are determined to believe the abc is biased despite all evidence to the contrary [just like your CC view]. You openly talk of your own well known bias, so have you ever thought it’s you, not them??

  245. April 14, 2014 8:33 pm

    You are out of your depth, small production companies sprang up when Labor forced aunty to outsource. The most creative effort can be gained when production is market driven, with a strong eye on international sales.

    You really want to have this conversation Egg? You with all your inside knowledge on how the ABC gets its content?

    How the fuck do you think these companies get financed genius? You may like to read the credits at the end of those outsources shows you are talking about and look the word PRESALE up in the fucking dictionary. And for your information the market does not drive anything, The pitch is sold conditionally from seed money after proof of concept a long assed way down the track. Shows are commissioned by the ABC in content Genre….

    This happens at Radio national as well and across the radio network..

    So with the greatest of respect… you are a bit out of your fucking depth. have no fucking idea

    My personal bias is well known, so all I’ll ask of Hockey is that he do something with those watermelon/leftoids in the newsroom. Bring back unbiased reporting.

    And by that you mean denial bias…. denial of overwhelming fact in favor of you shoe gazing cardboard science mantra…..

    You seem to speak with some authority Egg is there something you know that my many friends the work on both sides of aunty do not? Or is it speculative analysis from the plethora of “unbiased media” sullage that spews from Ruperts cock hole minion who is the subject of this thread.

  246. April 14, 2014 8:35 pm

    Whoops

  247. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 14, 2014 8:42 pm

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/media/abcs-mark-scott-sorry-over-chris-kenny-sketch/story-e6frg996-1226883705258

    who really cares about the tosser chris kenny??
    It’s just been blown up by political opponents to damage the ABC.

    That skit was so obviously OTT to be laughable, why are so-called journos off limits for sending up? I don’t agree with everything the chaser boys do and some of it’s not even humorous to me, but I don’t call for the entire station to be sold off because of one of their performances. Hardly a defence of your precious free speech when you want the entire abc sold off and neutered because you didn’t like something??

  248. egg permalink
    April 14, 2014 8:47 pm

    ‘Shows are commissioned by the ABC in content Genre….’

    This is what Ricky is referring to.

    http://www.abc.net.au/tv/independent/working_contracting.htm

  249. April 14, 2014 8:48 pm

    ”””Link?”””
    says the dead-beat that doesn`t include a link to most of their ipa-clap-trap, but is also not bright enough to realize that the `linkS` have already been dropped on various post across this site, l just added up the numbers dumpty

  250. egg permalink
    April 14, 2014 8:51 pm

    You mean the total number of unemployed Australians, I was referring to the ABC job cuts.

  251. April 14, 2014 8:53 pm

    Detroit has Landed.

    Elizabeth SA, an Aussie auto-city, now a waste-Land.

  252. April 14, 2014 8:59 pm

    ”””I was referring to the ABC job cuts.”””””

    no you were not, `budget` keep backflippin`dumpty

  253. egg permalink
    April 14, 2014 9:00 pm

    The ABC only employs around 4600 people full time, so any losses will be miniscule.

  254. egg permalink
    April 14, 2014 9:02 pm

    ‘no you were not, `budget` keep backflippin`dumpty’

    No you were sidetracked with Holden etc.

  255. Tony permalink
    April 14, 2014 9:04 pm

    “the chaser boys middle-aged leftoid posers”

    Fixed.

  256. April 14, 2014 9:05 pm

    armchair, l think the chaser boys should just claim they thought kenny was aboriginal, and exercising their right to free hate-speech under the new boltbrandis act

  257. egg permalink
    April 14, 2014 9:19 pm

    ‘And by that you mean denial bias…. denial of overwhelming fact in favor of you shoe gazing cardboard science mantra…..’

    All I want is the ABC to cover the other side of the argument. Patrick Michaels is giving lectures around Australia and I await with eagerness to see if aunty covers it.

    https://www.ipa.org.au/events/information/event/dr-patrick-michaels-in-perth-melbourne-sydney-and-brisbane

  258. April 14, 2014 9:24 pm

    it looks like something that boltreportland will cover,

    why boil ya`yolk about it being on my ABC, it looks like murdoch-jr material for network-10

  259. Tony permalink
    April 14, 2014 9:27 pm

    The ABC’s AM made a big deal this morning about the IPCC’s latest scare-report. CO2 emissions are continuing to increase, and something must be done. The very future of the planet is at stake! What Teabag’z ABC failed to mention is that temperatures have refused to increase for the last 15 years or so. But that doesn’t fit the narrative, so that inconvenient truth will be hidden from its listeners.

    #liesbyomission.

  260. egg permalink
    April 14, 2014 9:36 pm

    The sin of omission.

  261. April 14, 2014 9:37 pm

    do l really need to beat you over the head with shell-fish, yet again Tinfoil`osy, and have you running from the acidification back to dumpty`s junk-science thread.?

  262. Tony permalink
    April 14, 2014 9:40 pm

    Yep. Just re-checked Jake Sturmer’s story, for use of the word ‘temperature’. Number of mentions: zero.

    http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2014/s3984600.htm

  263. egg permalink
    April 14, 2014 9:43 pm

    Ricky ‘dead drunk’ is also Essential.

    http://www.tvtonight.com.au/2014/04/airdate-dead-drunk-a-night-in-the-cross.html

  264. Tony permalink
    April 14, 2014 9:49 pm

    Guffaw. Teabag’s proof of global warming is something about clams. Doesn’t address the the actual measure of any warming – temperature.

  265. egg permalink
    April 14, 2014 9:58 pm

    Trouble with you Tony, you lack faith.

  266. April 14, 2014 10:17 pm

    Ricky ‘dead drunk’ is also Essential. So what? Who do you think makes Rake? Whats your point?
    There over 50 groups in one form or another providing content to Aunty.

    I am telling you as someone who knows.. The first thing that will be cut is the commissioning and development. It always is.

    So fuck you all thank you very much Fiberals, you are actually punishing the industry as opposed to the ABC…

    Lets face it , this has nothing to do with the saving and heavy lifting of a budget crisis…Its punishing the ABC for perceived bias from pressure over at News…, its about ideology and opinion.

    Now please take your fucking nonsense over to the wanking corner thread and self flagellate to IPA ” kumbaya opinion agenda”

  267. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 14, 2014 10:19 pm

    All I want is the ABC to cover the other side of the argument. Patrick Michaels is giving lectures around Australia and I await with eagerness to see if aunty covers it.

    Why?
    It would be false balance for it to be reported seeing there is only 2-3% of experts who deny climate change. They’d be better off having a debate of genuine differing opinions amongst the consensus. Why give equal weight to some crackpots on the fringe as if they were equal in number to the other 97%? Besides, you can bet the oz and gina’s channel will give plenty of coverage, why must it be the abc particularly? especially as you are after unbalanced reportage.

    It would be like the ABC having to report the anti vaccination lunatic and uneducated opinion as equal in weight to evidence based medicine.

    What Teabag’z ABC failed to mention is that temperatures have refused to increase for the last 15 years or so.

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/planet-oz/2014/feb/12/global-warming-fake-pause-hiatus-climate-change

    Yet when it’s all put into context, practically all the signs show the impacts of human-caused climate change are trending dramatically in the wrong direction – just as they have been for several decades…

    is it really so difficult? it’s not like the scientists aren’t explaining it clearly.

  268. Tony permalink
    April 14, 2014 10:29 pm

    Graham Redfearn is a hiatus denier.

    http://judithcurry.com/2013/09/30/ipccs-pause-logic/

  269. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 14, 2014 10:34 pm

    My apologies, that vid [and the whole debate/obsession] should have gone to egg’s backroom. It keeps creeping in here, in every discussion thread with regular monotony.

  270. April 14, 2014 10:35 pm

    So what Tinfoil`osy, l am reasonably sure mankind will be wiped off the earth one day, but l aint gonna run around and try and `measure` asteroids

  271. Tony permalink
    April 14, 2014 10:44 pm

    Well beat me over the head with an abalone. Who needs measurements when we’ve got The Vibe.

    #whoneedsfacts

  272. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 14, 2014 10:46 pm

    Discussing global warming: why does this have to be so hard?

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2014/feb/12/discussing-global-warming-hard

  273. April 14, 2014 11:00 pm

  274. Tony permalink
    April 14, 2014 11:01 pm

    There’ll be plenty of red faces when the “consensus” is discredited.

    http://www.aps.org/policy/statements/climate-review.cfm

  275. April 14, 2014 11:08 pm

    well Tinfoil`osy, my `global-warming` position has not changed,
    http://730reportland.wordpress.com/2011/11/15/warmies-verses-doubties-tax/

    and l am pretty sure beating you over the head with shell-fish probably won`t do me much good anyway, you are probably wearing correct gauge tinfoil to protect you,

    #teabags

  276. April 14, 2014 11:17 pm

    yeah sorry Ricky, you`re correct, me and armchair fell for the cranks bait

  277. Tony permalink
    April 14, 2014 11:19 pm

    I’m not clicking your link, loopyteebagz. If you’ve got a better argument than ‘clams and asteroids’, try it it here.

  278. Tony permalink
    April 14, 2014 11:24 pm

    Ricky Pannakopita’s appointed himself thread police. Nice.

  279. Tony permalink
    April 14, 2014 11:37 pm

    “Our” “unbiased” ABC interviews a friendly witness, this time on tonight’s Lateline. Here he is, scientist Peter Doherty, in another forum, exposing his political leanings for all to see.

  280. April 15, 2014 12:04 am

    ””””If you’ve got a better argument””””

    l have a full `argument` or position,

    ””””’I’m not clicking your link””””

    but your own tinfoil beliefs prove ya`aint interested anyway, but you will still `claim` you know my position or `argument` anyway, and state some type of teabag-logic for this

  281. April 15, 2014 12:09 am

    yeah Tinfoil`osy, l saw Dohery on my ABC tonight,

    l suppose you didn`t agree with a word he said on LatelineLand

  282. April 15, 2014 12:11 am

    Ricky Pannakopita’s appointed himself thread police. Nice.

    No bone head, you have a corner to fiddle in with your pseudo scientspliffic tossery, go troll under that rock and play dress up climatologist.

    Reb created a nice little sandpit for you all so we all don’t have to watch you all finger paint with your own shit…what’s wrong? are your nappies full?

    This guys just about to tour here…. I suspect that if people read Bolt and voted for Abbott this guy could be the new NSW Liberal president..

  283. egg permalink
    April 15, 2014 7:22 am

    ‘Reb created a nice little sandpit for you …’

    Its more a cone of silence or event horizon.

  284. egg permalink
    April 15, 2014 7:29 am

    ‘are your nappies full?’

    Something stinks but it has nothing to do with me or Tony.

  285. Tony permalink
    April 15, 2014 9:27 am

    I think this guy might be obsessed, or something …

  286. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 15, 2014 9:36 am

    TB: Might remind you I’ve just visited three People’s Republics … its called experience … and my experience fks the shit out of your “copy”

    It is always all about you and your experience isn’t it? Or whatever it is you failed to learn at uni 22 years ago. But guess what? Neither of those things “fks the shit” out of anything.

    I know it has probably never occurred to you, but perhaps other people have had experience too. Some of us may even have been to university. The difference is that most of us are not stupid enough or arrogant enough to think that either of those things is a substitute for a logical argument.

    In your pompous parallel universe the word of the oh-so-experienced TB may be holy writ. Back in reality what counts is the ability to make a coherent argument – to put a proposition and back it with evidence.

    Take the present discussion. I was having a chat with Retardland. You came blustering in as usual. And as usual you didn’t actually provide any evidence or any coherent argument as to why you think I’m wrong. Apparently I should be satisfied that your much-vaunted experience settles the matter. It is rare to see such a combination of vanity and stupidity.

    “And you still haven’t told me the difference between socialism and capitalism “

    That is yet another example of the pompous piddling that passes for reasoned argument in that La-la Land where you are the centre of the universe. I’ve put my proposition. You can either answer it with a reasoned argument or not. So far you have not even attempted a reasoned response.

    If I’m wrong, tell me why. Having a good argument is how I learn stuff. Lord knows I’m wrong often enough. Maybe the socialisation of the means of production has nothing to do with socialism. Whatever, the fact that you are the almighty TB and that you think you have “experience” is not a reasoned argument. So let’s have one then. Tell me why I’m wrong.

  287. TB Queensland permalink
    April 15, 2014 10:14 am

    sb, you string words together extremely well but you have no substance to them when challenged …

    … ask you a question and you fly off into a personal attack or rage about socialism and socialists … no-one here has ever called you a fascist or your “arguments” extreme right wing …

    You pasted a comment that you had read … I questioned your understanding of the comment and ask once again …

    “What’s the difference between socialism and capitalism “ … you seem to think they can be compared – they can’t … you give me your rationalisation and I’ll give you mine …

    You made the statement – I questioned it … its up to you to defend your statement not me …

    Anyway … socialism is simply a political concept – its similar to communism and that system employs a command system as an economic model … capitalism is simply an economic system … generally associated with democratically governed states …

    Comparing an economic system and a political system is oranges and apples thinking …

    In the 21st Century I can think of only one country that still employs the command system to which you allude in your constant socialism/capitalism comparison …

    As for my experience … it is mine and mine alone – I’m happy to share it, as others do here … its offered freely and without strings … accept it or reject it by all means … just don’t be so mean spirited and bitter … I’ve got enough of that shit going on round me with real people at the moment …

    ———————————–

    As predicted ….

    I await the long c&p and convoluted attack on anyone and anything who posted in the last six hours …

  288. egg permalink
    April 15, 2014 10:18 am

    I’ll reheat the popcorn.

  289. Walrus permalink
    April 15, 2014 10:28 am

    I’ll get the oiled up popcorn maker the triple butter and salt ready

    How many bowls ?

  290. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 15, 2014 11:49 am

    ““What’s the difference between socialism and capitalism” … you seem to think they can be compared – they can’t …”

    I disagree. They are frequently compared and contrasted.

    “Anyway … socialism is simply a political concept – its similar to communism and that system employs a command system as an economic model … capitalism is simply an economic system … generally associated with democratically governed states …”

    Disagree again. That statement doesn’t make much sense. You still haven’t said what socialism is. You’ve said it is similar to communism. You’ve then told us that communism employs a particular economic model. But you also said that socialism is simply a political concept. Those assertions do not sit well together.

    If socialism is a political concept, what is the point of noting that it is “similar” to communism and then telling us about the economic model that communism employs.

    Both terms are based on economic concepts. The distinction is the ownership of the means of production. Under capitalism the ownership is private whereas under socialism the ownership of the means of production is social, usually ownership by the state. (What “ownership” means and entails is a discussion for another day).

    The bit that I don’t get is why you think that socialism is “simply a political concept”. Depending on the elasticity of your definition of “political concept” I suppose that socialism might also be a political concept but it is essentially an economic concept. It is quite possible that a democratic system might adopt state ownership of the means of production and a totalitarian system might allow the private ownership of the means of production.

    “You made the statement – I questioned it … its up to you to defend your statement not me …”

    The way I chose to defend it was to quote a fairly standard definition of socialism. A rational response was to tell me why that was wrong and perhaps in the process tell me what socialism is. You did neither. Instead you complained that I was wrong to provide you with a quote supporting my position. Quite frankly that is an inane response.

    If the question is whether my description of socialism was reasonable then the most obvious way to demonstrate the point is by reference to a general discussion of socialism in, say, Wikipedia. Granted Wikipedia is sometimes wrong and if it was in this case I would expect you to tell me why. But you didn’t. You objected instead to the very fact that I quoted a source as support for my position. Why do you not think that is a reasonable response?

    “just don’t be so mean spirited and bitter … I’ve got enough of that shit going on round me with real people at the moment …”

    Cuts both ways TB. You felt free to suggest I had a chip on my shoulder, among other things, so I felt free to point to some of your shortcomings. I certainly don’t mean to add to your other woes and wish you well in resolving them. A while ago I wrote a comment detailing the amount of respect I have for you and why that you deserve it. This is still very much the case. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to stop arguing with you. 🙂

  291. TB Queensland permalink
    April 15, 2014 11:49 am

    Chuckle …

  292. April 15, 2014 11:50 am

    “Our” “unbiased” ABC interviews a friendly witness, this time on tonight’s Lateline.

    How was prof doherty political tony? he was advocating for science, ffs.
    He appeared to me to be stating a scientist’s view on decreased funding of science and spelling out the ramifications of it. Also advocating for science as a career choice instead of just going for the higher income fields like the finance industry. He delved into CC in response to a question by emma and in that response he gave the professional scientist view, he refused to comment on the government stance. He didn’t say anything that we don’t already know on the vested interests, their operations and their priorities.

    I guess some people will think that anything a scientist says is biased, depending on their own prejudice!

    Bloody scientists what would they know? they must be communists bent on a new world order, trying to take away what is mine, mine, mine!

    Conservatives vs science, it’s another version of fundy religion vs science. Think of the conservatives as the taliban fighting girls having an education and any real progress that takes away male power and rule. They will terrorise, victimise and spread fear, uncaring of the harm caused to innocents. That is what the denier industry is doing right now, fighting a war against any progress, any enlightened thinking that will reduce their power and profits. A vicious, criminally culpable war against their own people.

  293. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 15, 2014 11:54 am

    I don’t think socialism vs communism vs capitalism is even relevant today. This is where sb misleads. No-one advocates for socialism or communism.

    try social democracy.

  294. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 15, 2014 12:02 pm

    Let’s face it, the conservatives [or libertarians] were always going to be against any green growth or change in consumer behaviour.

    Why?

    They can’t privatise the wind or the sun.

  295. TB Queensland permalink
    April 15, 2014 12:05 pm

    BTW … the chuckle was aimed at Wally/egg … KL’s comment succinctly covers my reasoning too … and I’ll expand on that when I can based on my recent experiences …

    Kl, as for the Prof … he made a telling quote near the end of the interview (what a boring voice) … the IMF claims that 85 people own half of the world’s wealth … free enterprise (with a little help from your friends no doubt) …

  296. egg permalink
    April 15, 2014 12:15 pm

    ‘Conservatives vs science, it’s another version of fundy religion vs science.’

    Funnily the Denialati see it a little differently, AGW is the religion and the science has become corrupted by enlightened self interest.

  297. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 15, 2014 12:26 pm

    I agree KL. Pure socialism is these days the preserve of fringe loonies – like the Marxism 2014 conference at Melbourne Uni, Socialist Alliance, Socialist Alternative, GreenLeft Weekly and a few entryist Greens.

    The ALP still retains the Socialist Objective in its constitution but nobody takes it seriously anymore. It is a quaint reminder of the days when the ALP actually had principles beyond power for its own sake.

  298. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 15, 2014 12:26 pm

    Not a bad explanation of what is happening [in the oz too]

    Social democracy is at death’s door, writes John Kearne, but an alternative may be emerging:

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/arts/books/decline-fall-and-rebirth/story-e6frg8nf-1225934275522

    …These thinking social democrats ask where else 21st-century defenders of social democracy can turn for fresh moral guidance. This often leads them leftwards, towards the realisation that green experts, movements and parties are potentially poised to wage the same struggle against market fundamentalism that social democracy began more than 150 years ago.

    If the potential can be realised, and if red were mixed into green, then more than shades of neutral brown would result. The metamorphosis would rather confirm an old political axiom: when people fight for just causes, the battles they lose sometimes inspire others to carry on their fight with new and improved means, under an entirely different name…

  299. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 15, 2014 12:34 pm

    The ALP still retains the Socialist Objective in its constitution but nobody takes it seriously anymore. It is a quaint reminder of the days when the ALP actually had principles beyond power for its own sake.

    That was before ‘the third way’ which imo, has ruined any ALP social democratic principles by accepting neoliberal economics and turning into another liberal party.

  300. Tony permalink
    April 15, 2014 12:36 pm

    “What they’re about is anything that they think threatens the economic model of – the neo-con economic model, the magic of the markets, this wonderful, wonderful financial system of free trade and so forth that had several – I think several million Irish starved to death in the 1850s while they were still exporting food. So, I’m not in love with that type of system. I’m not an economist obviously any more than I’m a climate scientist, but I think we’re living with some invented narratives that are very powerful and suit some very rich and powerful people that don’t necessarily bode well for humanity.”

    Said the immunologist, who hates markets and free trade. Just the type of guest ABC presenters love, because they know his answers before they ask their questions.

  301. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 15, 2014 1:02 pm

    Said the immunologist, who hates markets and free trade. Just the type of guest ABC presenters love, because they know his answers before they ask their questions.

    well, there’s a lot of that sentiment about tony, I would say that the majority of the population is against a completely unfettered and unregulated free market, not that we’ve ever been polled on it because the pollies don’t want to go anywhere near the answer.

    We have a political system where corporates control the politicians and the government, that is not what any of us wanted. It is an illegitimate power when the people have not been allowed to participate in our governing power structure.

    We are allowed to vote, that’s all. Tell me where the business lobby appears on the ballot paper.

  302. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 15, 2014 1:09 pm

    “What they’re about is anything that they think threatens the economic model of – the neo-con economic model, the magic of the markets, this wonderful, wonderful financial system of free trade and so forth that had several – I think several million Irish starved to death in the 1850s while they were still exporting food…

    was he lying tony?

  303. Tony permalink
    April 15, 2014 1:18 pm

    “I would say that the majority of the population is against a completely unfettered and unregulated free market”

    Well, I would say nobody likes Crony Capitalism, except big business, lobbyists, and politicians. It’s actually the opposite of free-market, where, instead of price determining how scarce resources are allocated, power does. It is anti-competitive and hurts the consumer.

  304. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 15, 2014 1:21 pm

    A scientist has a lifetime of work devoted to improving the lives of people. Why should they be silent on what is the biggest threat to humanity ever. They know the cause and know how it should be solved. Why should they be silent because an industry prefers profits over people? Why should they remain silent when their entire profession has been allowed to be discredited by ruthless politicians and profiteering industry?

  305. Tony permalink
    April 15, 2014 1:29 pm

    He’s a scientist, not a politician. He’s talking about public policy issues on which he admits he is no expert. Unless he’s talking about immunology, he’s merely stating an opinion. He doesn’t get extra credits on those topics just because he happens to be involved in a certain (unrelated) field of science..

  306. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 15, 2014 1:53 pm

    He was asked for his opinion, knowing it wasn’t his area of expertise.
    I would trust a scientist’s informed and educated opinion over a politicians ideology and business donorship/lobby any day.

    Politicians are not scientists, why should we be given their opinions on the science? they just need to get moving on fixing the known problem.

    yes, politicians need to implement public policy, especially when there is a threat to the public, they are not doing anything, that is the problem, a wilful and criminal negligence of public duty.

  307. Tony permalink
    April 15, 2014 2:02 pm

    “especially when there is a threat to the public”

    That’s where opinions differ.

  308. egg permalink
    April 15, 2014 2:22 pm

    ‘Why should they be silent on what is the biggest threat to humanity ever.’

    Its not a threat, correlation does not imply causation, the increase in a particular trace gas appears to be having no effect, but a decrease in our star’s output is causing concern.

  309. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 15, 2014 2:25 pm

    I think that should go in the backroom egg, if you want to argue the consensus, or the scientific findings for that matter.

    BTW, what are your climate science qualifications?

  310. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 15, 2014 2:29 pm

    It’s about physics, not correlation.

    And I’m pretty sure that every scientist in the world knows that correlation does not prove causation, that’s why they have a rigorous research process to rule that out.

  311. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 15, 2014 2:55 pm

    the diploma of applied jonova?
    the watts society of science illiteracy?
    grad dip in 1% vs 99%?
    degree in fred singer and big tobacco?
    assoc of wealthy white males rule?

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/study-serves-huge-blow-any-remaining-climate-change-deniers-1444665

  312. egg permalink
    April 15, 2014 3:02 pm

    Mmmm …

  313. TB Queensland permalink
    April 15, 2014 3:14 pm

    He’s a scientist, not a politician. He’s talking about public policy issues on which he admits he is no expert. Unless he’s talking about immunology, he’s merely stating an opinion.

    And how “expert” do you think politicians are, ToSY?

  314. egg permalink
    April 15, 2014 3:23 pm

    ‘And how “expert” do you think politicians are, ToSY?’

    They are not science experts, only politicians, that is why we need a debate on the subject.

    Jools said the sky is falling and the monk says that’s crap, who to believe? Think for yourself, do some reading in the back room where I have put up the different arguments.

  315. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 15, 2014 3:27 pm

    http://www.desmogblog.com/2014/03/20/science-journal-retracts-paper-showing-how-climate-change-sceptics-were-conspiracy-theorists-after-sceptics-shout

    Apparently there’s a link between climate change denial, conspiracy theorists and free market ideology. The deniers have threatened to sue.

    here’s the offending paper

    http://www.psychology.uwa.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/2523540/LskyetalRecursiveFury4UWA.pdf

    In replication of much previous
    research (e.g., Heath & Gi ord, 2006; Kahan et al., 2012), endorsement of free-market
    ideology emerged as a strong predictor of the rejection of climate science. Free-market
    ideology was also found to predict the rejection of other scienti c propositions…

  316. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 15, 2014 3:31 pm

    Editors Resign From Frontiers Journal Over Retracted Paper That Upset Climate Science Deniers

    http://www.desmogblog.com/2014/04/09/professors-resign-journal-over-retraction-paper-upset-climate-science-deniers

    Brembs, an associate editor at Frontiers, wrote on his blog: “Essentially, this puts large sections of science at risk. Clearly, every geocentrist, flat earther, anti-vaxxer, creationist, homeopath, astrologer, diviner, and any other unpersuadable can now feel encouraged to challenge scientific papers in a court.”

  317. Tony permalink
    April 15, 2014 3:33 pm

    “And how “expert” do you think politicians are, ToSY”

    They’re not, but they’re the ones we’ve elected to resolve these issues for us. That’s (one of the flaws in) democracy.

  318. egg permalink
    April 15, 2014 3:39 pm

    ‘The categorized comments were in response to the publication of a previous paper that found a link between climate science denial and the acceptance of conspiracy theories, such as NASA faking the Apollo moon landings.’

    Readfearn / Desmogblog

  319. egg permalink
    April 15, 2014 3:43 pm

    ‘That’s (one of the flaws in) democracy.’

    Yep, they get a lot wrong, but we have the luxury of throwing them out for incompetence.

  320. April 15, 2014 3:43 pm

    Egg go to your room.

  321. Walrus permalink
    April 15, 2014 3:48 pm

    Hehehehehehehehehehehe……………..

    Egg’s been a naughty boy…………………again

  322. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 15, 2014 3:55 pm

    They’re not, but they’re the ones we’ve elected to resolve these issues for us. That’s (one of the flaws in) democracy.

    I dispute that we elect them, the parties elect them to be our representatives, we get no choice in who represents us, the branches of grass roots membership are over ruled in the selection process and candidates dictated by the executive.

    How else would people like bollocks, shorten, abetz, abbott and bernardi get in? They would never be the popular choice.

  323. egg permalink
    April 15, 2014 3:59 pm

    Yes sir.

  324. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 15, 2014 4:04 pm

    Voters could vote for Greens candidates, but generally they are not that dumb.

  325. Tony permalink
    April 15, 2014 4:06 pm

    Yeah, democracy sucks. That’s why I want smaller government: the fewer things theycan get their hands on, the fewer things they can stuff up.

  326. April 15, 2014 4:10 pm

    I can feel an instant banning coming on.

  327. egg permalink
    April 15, 2014 4:22 pm

    This place reminds me of the Australian radio comedy ‘Yes What’.

  328. April 15, 2014 4:23 pm

    Meanwhile, in more interesting news…. It appears that a $3000 bottle of red wine is unaccounted for.

    I guess we can count TB out.

  329. TB Queensland permalink
    April 15, 2014 4:32 pm

    Just to respond to, sb, and the reason I don’t believe the theories of Marx. Engels, Lenin etc have any influence in today’s world* … is to simply look at what is happening globally today …

    … those beliefs, and that’s all they, have been reinforced by my recent visit to two people’s republics and two kingdoms in south east asia …

    … all four countries actively encourage free enterprise …

    … all four countries are steeped in Buddhism (and a strong link with Hinduism) …

    … all four countries have elections to vote representatives to serve in government (two single party and two multi party) … one country still struggles with the democratic process as I write …

    … all are poor and all have a similar problem – the rich get richer and the poor really do get poorer more quickly under capitalism … I don’t think that is right under any system of government or economic system … including our own …

    The need for some to scrabble for power to gain money and feed their greed kills innocent, hardworking people and continues to … wherever, whenever, whomever, whatever we do to try and stop it …

    Just because socialism/communism failed the majority of people it enslaved … doesn’t mean that democracy and capitalism are the answers and that many of our more needy people are not too enslaved … and to stop looking for a better system is, quite frankly, lazy …

    To blindly believe that democracy, capitalism, free enterprise and free trade agreements are the answer to everyone’s problems, ignores the real purpose of any government – to serve and protect its people …

    I cannot name you one government (of any political persuasion) that does that today …

    … but many have the reputation of serving the whims of the corporate and/or organisational Robber Barons … whether overpaid CEO’s, lazy politicians, greedy billionaires or irresponsible church and/or union leaders …

    Having said that, I will state categorically, that I believe in a true democracy and a well regulated and governed free enterprise economic system … I worked for myself for 16 years – I can vouch for the many benefits of capitalism …

    .

    *nor do I want to debate the finer points of those century old theories

  330. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    April 15, 2014 4:33 pm

    ”It appears that a $3000 bottle of red wine is unaccounted for.

    That’s expensive, I can get a dozen for that price!

  331. TB Queensland permalink
    April 15, 2014 4:34 pm

    I guess we can count TB out.

    Chortle! Gurgle, gurgle … mmmmmm

  332. TB Queensland permalink
    April 15, 2014 4:35 pm

    Oh, $3000 I thought you meant … $3.00 … 😉

  333. April 15, 2014 4:37 pm
  334. Walrus permalink
    April 15, 2014 4:39 pm

    Well someone must have signed for the bottle of Grange even if he doesn’t recall receiving it.

  335. TB Queensland permalink
    April 15, 2014 4:40 pm

    Why would any Dickhead person pay that much for five glasses of old grapejuice?

    Was that photoshopped in N Korea?

  336. Walrus permalink
    April 15, 2014 4:40 pm

    If a signed POD turns up I’d say that’s the end of BOF as Premier

  337. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 15, 2014 4:44 pm

  338. armchair opinionator permalink
    April 15, 2014 4:48 pm

  339. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 15, 2014 5:03 pm

    “nor do I want to debate the finer points of those century old theories”

    The answer is simple – don’t buy into the argument in the first place.

  340. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 15, 2014 5:06 pm

    Looks like Fatty O’Barrell is er staring down the barrell.

  341. April 15, 2014 5:07 pm

    ””’1 per cent of its households own 38 per cent of the national wealth,””’

    ””’while the bottom 80 per cent of households own only 17 per cent of national wealth.””’

    ”””””””””At the end of three decades of deregulated growth, one-fifth of children live in poverty and most middle-class citizens reckon themselves vulnerable to unemployment and to the humiliation joblessness brings.
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/arts/books/decline-fall-and-rebirth/story-e6frg8nf-1225934275522
    (#teh-usa)”””””””””””””

    that was interesting armchair, while l suppose l fit the `social democracy` Label, l think the author missed/overlooked that `democracy` has limitations and has only ever got country`s `so-far`, and at the end of the day, no matter what UN-charters say, voting is a luxury, particularly `informed`, fully-democratic voting.

  342. egg permalink
    April 15, 2014 6:00 pm

    Noice long article Teabag, I’ll pick the eyes out of it.

  343. egg permalink
    April 15, 2014 6:09 pm

    ‘….if red were mixed into green, then more than shades of neutral brown would result.’

    Is that the Third Way?

  344. TB Queensland permalink
    April 15, 2014 6:10 pm

    The answer is simple – don’t buy into the argument in the first place.

    What argument?

  345. April 15, 2014 6:43 pm

    #Hey Tinfoil`osy
    armchair found ya`temperature `answer` for`ya 🙂

    ”””””””””””””’
    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/study-serves-huge-blow-any-remaining-climate-change-deniers-1444665
    Published in the journal Climate Dynamics, the researchers analysed temperature data since 1500. Their findings almost completely rule out the possibility that global warming in the industrial era is a natural fluctuation in the planet’s climate.””””””””

  346. Meta permalink
    April 15, 2014 6:54 pm

    (If socialism is sponging off the public purse, then antisocialism is us lining up to let them eat cake while creaming off the surplus with lashings of figjam?)

  347. egg permalink
    April 15, 2014 7:11 pm

    Alan Kohler said we need to trade in Renminbi.

  348. egg permalink
    April 15, 2014 7:22 pm

    ‘The third way anthem actually had two verses: the first for the market and the second against.’

    John Kearne

    We need a fourth way.

  349. Splatterbottom permalink
    April 15, 2014 7:30 pm

    TB:“What argument?”

    Surely you remember?

    I was having a little repartee with Retardland about socialism. You jumped in demanding answers, calling me a shifty troll, (only later to hypocrtically complain about me being “mean spirited and bitter”) and when I answered your questions and showed that your “socialism is simply a political concept” statement was silly you didn’t want to discuss that issue any more. As usual, you were right to give up at that point even if you could not admit that you were wrong!

    Just to remind you here are your highlights:

    “I prefer YOU comments not someone else’s that you’ve c&p’d …

    What is YOUR understanding … not something you’ve read … in fact what you are quoting is 1950′s propaganda … you’re sixty years behind the times

    Might remind you I’ve just visited three People’s Republics … its called experience … and my experience fks the shit out of your “copy”

    ….

    Anyway … socialism is simply a political concept – its similar to communism and that system employs a command system as an economic model … capitalism is simply an economic system … generally associated with democratically governed states …

    It has been a real hoot, TB. 🙂

  350. April 15, 2014 7:35 pm

    BTW, our good friend Ross Sharp over at Smelly Tongues is a bit unwell at the moment so do yourselves a favour and spare a second from your day to give him some good wishes for a better health…

    http://smellytongues.wordpress.com/2014/03/23/tongues-is-unwell/

  351. Tony permalink
    April 15, 2014 7:36 pm

    “armchair found ya`temperature `answer` for`ya”

    Nope.

    “the researchers analysed temperature data since 1500.”

    There are no temperature records going back to 1500, so the researchers would have used “proxies” for temperature, far from an exact science.

  352. egg permalink
    April 15, 2014 8:17 pm

    Dendrology is not as popular, while ice cores are good to go.

  353. TB Queensland permalink
    April 15, 2014 8:23 pm

    It has been a real hoot, TB.

    Just another rockshifter …

  354. Tony permalink
    April 15, 2014 9:39 pm

    Joffrey sleeps with the fishes.

  355. egg permalink
    April 16, 2014 8:03 am

    ‘NORTH Korea has failed to see the funny side after a salon owner used a poster of Kim Jong-un to promote its ‘Bad Hair Day’ sale.

    ‘British hairdresser Mo Nabbach put up a poster with a photo of Kim in his salon’s window, which read “Bad hair day? 15 per cent off all gents cuts through the month of April”. Mr Nabbach didn’t realise the North Korean embassy was right around the corner — until two unamused North Korean officials turned up at his shop, demanding he take down the “disrespectful” poster.

    “I told them this is England and not North Korea and told them to get their lawyers,” said Mr Nabbach.’

    The Daily Terror

  356. egg permalink
    April 16, 2014 9:27 am

    ‘…let them eat cake while creaming off the surplus with lashings of figjam?’

    Yes indeed, I want a revolution and I want it now.

    http://www.taxpayer.com.au/News/27974/The_“rich_get_richer”_in_Australia_faster_than_anywhere_in_the_world_other_than_the_US

  357. egg permalink
    April 16, 2014 9:31 am

    From that link.

    ‘almost half of the world’s wealth (46%) is now owned by just 1% of the population’

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