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New Data Confirms The Australian Lied about Tobacco Consumption

June 17, 2014

Capture

 

In a recent article published in The Australian under the title “Labor’s plain packaging fails as cigarette sales rise,” so-called “journalist” Christian Kerr argued that since the introduction of plain pack cigarettes – an initiative of the Labor Government – consumption of cigarettes had actually increased rather than decreased.

“Eighteen months after the previous government’s laws came into force, new data, obtained by The Australian, shows that tobacco sales volumes increased by 59 million “sticks”, or individual cigarettes or their roll-your-own equivalents last year” declared Kerr.

According to this so-called “survey,” carried out “exclusively” for The Australian, Kerr sank the boot into the plain pack program declaring it an abject failure of the Labor Government and for then Minister for Health Nicola Roxon.

“[The survey] undermines claims by then health minister Nicola Roxon that Australia would introduce the “world’s toughest anti-smoking laws” he said.

“Plain packaging laws, which came into force in December 2012, have instead boosted demand for cheaper cigarettes, with reports of a more than 50 per cent rise in the market for lower cost cigarettes,” he crowed.

Fortunately however, his claims are wrong.

Former Chief Economist of Citibank, and now fervent blogger Stephen Koukoulas, trashed the findings of the survey conducted for The Australian with new and independent findings of the ABS.

“Just this week, the Australian Bureau of Statistics released the national accounts and buried in those accounts is a measure of the volume of household consumption of cigarettes and tobacco” writes Koukoulas at The Kouk.

“The figures from the ABS show that total consumption of tobacco and cigarettes in the March quarter 2014 is the lowest ever recorded – and this with the series starting in 1959. This is extraordinary. It is a Great Depression for tobacco sales.”

“Making a mockery of The Australian’s story is the fact that, in seasonally adjusted volume terms, consumption of tobacco is 5.3 per cent lower in the March quarter 2014 than in the December quarter 2012 when the plain packaging laws were introduced.”

Additionally, new figures released just this week from the National Association of Attorney’s General confirm that actual cigarette consumption is decreasing at a faster rate than the declines predicted.

It is little wonder that vested interests are desperately exploring avenues to arrest this decline.

Of course, if the tobacco industry is so convinced that plain packs don’t play a role in decreasing tobacco consumption, why are they so against them?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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423 Comments leave one →
  1. Tom R permalink
    June 17, 2014 11:12 am

    Your doing this just to embarrass them again aren’t ya reb 😆

    https://theguttertrash.com/2014/05/30/rostrum-toons-and-loons-edition/#comment-60595

  2. Splatterbottom permalink
    June 17, 2014 12:13 pm

    “Of course, if the tobacco industry is so convinced that plain packs don’t play a role in decreasing tobacco consumption, why are they so against them?”

    Funny that. The poor tobacco companies are now reduced to funding political and union elections to get their message out.

  3. egg permalink
    June 17, 2014 12:16 pm

    If we all agree that it works, when do we start on alcohol and food? This is a rhetorical question.

  4. June 17, 2014 12:26 pm

    Do thinking people actually still read this pile of Murdoch trash? NO! Can’t be they’re not thinking if they do!

  5. Tom R permalink
    June 17, 2014 3:18 pm

    I take it from the silence that all those who argued so vociferously on the other thread over this have now been edicated into the fact that the oz has been caught Making Shit Up yet again?

    Glad we are all in furious agreement then 😉

  6. Smoking Gun permalink
    June 17, 2014 3:33 pm

    “Glad we are all in furious agreement then”

    Not really.

    http://catallaxyfiles.com/2014/06/17/abc-admits-christian-kerr-is-correct/

  7. egg permalink
    June 17, 2014 3:41 pm

    Good catch Tony, that pretty much settles the argument.

    ‘and a jump in the amount of cheap illegal cigarettes on the streets’

    Chop chop is getting out of hand, according to my sources.

  8. egg permalink
    June 17, 2014 4:09 pm

    ‘Australia’s tobacco lobby has employed an ex-gangland taskforce detective to investigate Melbourne retailers selling black-market cigarettes and commissioned a report that found the illicit trade has reached record levels.

    ‘The KPMG report, bankrolled by cigarette manufacturers and obtained exclusively by Fairfax Media, attributes the surge in illegal tobacco to Australia’s high tax rates and the introduction of plain packaging in 2012.’

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/black-market-tobacco-booming-in-australia-kpmg-study-20140411-36iea.html#ixzz34sFlZJSB

  9. TB Queensland permalink
    June 17, 2014 4:18 pm

    Of course, if the tobacco industry is so convinced that plain packs don’t play a role in decreasing tobacco consumption, why are they so against them?

    Exactly, sreb, my sentiment expressed in a comment a few days ago …

    I worked for a company that tried to bullshit for years that asbestos was not a problem (knowing that it was) … seen it all before …

    The hysterics and shrill comments only reinforce the fact that the tobacco industry is losing – sales, advertising, market and most importantly – MONEY … yee-ha …

    Tobacco should be banned … period … anyone that defends the shit is quite simply a Dickhead™ …

  10. egg permalink
    June 17, 2014 4:20 pm

    In light of the surging black market, we see the missing link. Tobacco is price inelastic and any official stats maybe unreliable.

  11. egg permalink
    June 17, 2014 4:29 pm

    ‘Tobacco should be banned … period … anyone that defends the shit is quite simply a Dickhead™’

    Prohibition is not a solution, its better to tax the weed and reap the benefits. That’s why they should introduce plain packaging for alcohol and tax it to the hilt, to restrict young people getting into the habit.

    Mature drinkers will gladly accept this impost in the interest of good order, a safer and healthier society.

  12. June 17, 2014 4:33 pm

    ” Tobacco is price inelastic ”

    Higher cigarette prices reduce cigarette smoking by decreasing smoking prevalence and reducing the number of cigarettes smoked by continuing smokers.

    “Well over 100 studies from high-income countries have confirmed the inverse relationship between cigarette prices and cigarette smoking. The consensus among researchers working in this area is that a 10% increase in the price of cigarettes in developed countries will result in a 3 to 5% reduction in overall cigarette consumption.

    Studies that investigate the impact of cigarette prices on smoking prevalence and average smoking intensity among smokers separately generally find that approximately half of the impact of price on overall cigarette demand results from reducing the number of smokers by motivating current smokers to quit and discouraging youths from ever starting to smoke.”

    http://www.treatobacco.net/en/page_120.php

    Jesus, it’s like shooting fish in a barrel today.

  13. Splatterbottom permalink
    June 17, 2014 4:52 pm

    “Jesus, it’s like shooting fish in a barrel today.”

    Or maybe not.

  14. TB Queensland permalink
    June 17, 2014 5:05 pm

    That’s why they should introduce plain packaging for alcohol and tax it to the hilt

    Bowlers Run uses (fairly) plain packaging … and at $2.85 a bottle I can understand why!

  15. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 17, 2014 5:05 pm

    I don’t care about Tobacco. It has never interested me.

    I do however have a problem with red wine. I can’t stop drinking it for some reason. Aldi now sells Precious Earth for $2.69 at the checkout and i cannot resist.

    I know no self respecting wine person would buy something for $2.69 however i do.

  16. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 17, 2014 5:10 pm

    I agree with something that walrus once said [don’t know if he’s changed his mind since]

    make tobacco a prescription only item.

    re the christian kerr article, if people have switched to cheaper cigarettes, wouldn’t that still be recorded in the sales stats? If there is an overall decline in cigarette sales, it doesn’t matter if they are cheaper or not. If they have switched to cheaper ciggies, then according to the stats, they are still not buying more amounts of them. Or have I missed something?

  17. TB Queensland permalink
    June 17, 2014 5:18 pm

    So let’s allow pretty packaging back and tobacco consumption will go down?

    What BS … market is based upon image and positioning … if all cars looked the same every year car sales would nosedive … and yes be based purely on the cheapest pricing …

    … but it would narrow the market for the most expensive players (a pun?!)

    Tobacco playing marketing and defenders playing politics … with other people’s health and lives … and I might add the economy and future budgets …

    Smoking tobacco is recognised as one of the largest preventable causes of death and disease in Australia. Each year, smoking kills an estimated 15,000 Australians1 and costs Australia $31.5 billion in social (including health) and economic costs.

    More like dropping grenades than shooting fish in a barrel .

  18. TB Queensland permalink
    June 17, 2014 5:20 pm

    Or have I missed something?

    Read, sb’s, link, KL …

  19. Walrus permalink
    June 17, 2014 5:33 pm

    “”….make tobacco a prescription only item””

    Kitty I still believe that.

    However it does not get rid of illegal imports and a bit of a blackmarket but unlike a booze blackmarket normal people would just go to the chemist counter and get issued with a certain number of sticks per week

    All you do is proclaim that after 18 June 2014 you need to have been born before 18 June 1996 to be issued with a cigarette prescription. No one after that date can legally become a smoker…………..or something like that.

  20. Walrus permalink
    June 17, 2014 5:36 pm

    “I know no self respecting wine person would buy something for $2.69 however i do.”

    You make TB look like a fucking sommelier

  21. egg permalink
    June 17, 2014 5:43 pm

    Moving on from tobacco and alcohol addictions to food.

    ‘The Democrats got it wrong in 1999 in their great GST compromise. No GST on fresh food, they argued. It is unfair to low-income earners. And if there is no GST on fresh food, people will be encouraged to buy it, which will be better for their health.

    ‘Wrong. Wrong.

    ‘Food habits have not changed. The exemption favours the wealthy.’

    Read more: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/comment/a-direct-look-at-gst-bogey-may-dissipate-phobia-20130816-2s2fb.html#ixzz34scAzOuI

  22. Walrus permalink
    June 17, 2014 5:57 pm

    ‘Food habits have not changed. The exemption favours the wealthy.’

    Exactly

    My weekend diet of lobster, smoked salmon, prawns, Balmain Bugs, and Sashimi diet is subsidised by those who fill their hungry kids and themselves with carbs straight from Maccas.

    My weekday diet of roast lamb, roast beef, green vegies, rice, pasta ,marinated tenderloins is similarly subsidised

  23. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 17, 2014 6:06 pm

    ‘Food habits have not changed. The exemption favours the wealthy.’

    The GST favours the wealthy, with or without food exemptions.

    perhaps our farmers can get into this

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-17/cannabis-becomes-big-business-in-us/5526006

  24. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 17, 2014 6:11 pm

    or these e-cigs

    WHO urged to act on booming e-cigarette sales as study finds market growing at 10 brands per month:
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-17/e-cig-market-growing-at-10-brands-per-month-study/5529288

  25. egg permalink
    June 17, 2014 6:25 pm

    ‘subsidised by those who fill their hungry kids and themselves with carbs straight from Maccas.’

    Yes.

  26. June 17, 2014 6:36 pm

    “Bowlers Run uses (fairly) plain packaging … and at $2.85 a bottle I can understand why!”

    I presume (and hope) that it includes a health warning (as a minimum).

  27. June 17, 2014 6:38 pm

    “I do however have a problem with red wine. I can’t stop drinking it for some reason. “

    Well that explains pretty much everything.

  28. June 17, 2014 6:39 pm

    “I know no self respecting wine person would buy something for $2.69 however i do.”

    Well finally there’s something we can agree on.

    Is it good for removing rust….?

  29. egg permalink
    June 17, 2014 6:49 pm

    Neil is practicing self deprecation.

  30. June 17, 2014 7:19 pm

    “Neil is practicing self deprecation.”

    Chuckle…

    Reminds me of the time when a dog botherer asked me if I was a “practicing homosexual.”

    Not really I replied. At this stage in my life I’ve pretty much got it down to a fine art.

    *blank stare*

  31. egg permalink
    June 17, 2014 7:27 pm

    Outwitting dullards is good fun and harmless.

  32. Cookoo permalink
    June 17, 2014 7:37 pm

    “Or have I missed something?”

    Yes.

    The Christian Kerr article referred to an increase in number of “sticks” sold. The Kouk “article” referred to $ Millions spent per annum on tobacco products, statistics he got from the ABS. Kouk then divided those amounts by the total population in each year to give a per-capita figure. So he divided the amount of money smokers spent on smokes by the total number of men women and children in the country, only a small percentage of whom smoke. The reason he did this? Fuck only knows.

  33. June 17, 2014 7:39 pm

    The reason he did this? To get the “right” answer, no doubt.

  34. egg permalink
    June 17, 2014 7:39 pm

    No matter what the reason, its created mass confusion.

  35. TB Queensland permalink
    June 17, 2014 8:02 pm

    You make TB look like a fucking sommelier

    Finally a noice word … WTF is a sommelier?

    ‘Food habits have not changed. The exemption favours the wealthy.’

    Even Wally thinks your Fuckwit, egg … well your link is anyway …

    Wally, are you sober or pissed?

    … your comments actually sound sensible … bothersome …

    I presume (and hope) that it includes a health warning (as a minimum).

    Actually, no, and it has caused me to be poorly on occasion … good point … unfortunately you can’t buy grog alcohol in supermarkets in QLD … so Aldi is out …

    Well that explains pretty much everything.

    Not quite … but it does shed a light on, Kneel’s, comments …

    Is it good for removing rust….?

    Radiators perhaps … I find Bowler’s Run is great in the w/screen washers … pisses the bugs right off …

    Neil is practicing self deprecation.

    I hadn’t noticed …

    And then spit fkn Bowler’s Run semilon, savinon blank all over my new fkn keyboard … after reading, sreb’s comment … this blog costs me a fortune … no wonder my keys constantly stick!

    Outwitting dullards is good fun and harmless.

    That’s why you don’t need to tell us, egg …

    The reason he did this? Fuck only knows.

    And no-one (with any intelligence) really cares … the tobacco companies and Liberal supporters don’t like plain packaging … ’cause kit hurts the “industry” … ultimate Robber Baron speak … making profit at other people’s (and in this case the NATION’s) expense …

    Now … this stupid BUDGET …

  36. Tom R permalink
    June 17, 2014 8:04 pm

    The reason he did this?

    Because that is how they have always determined the number of smokers.

    No matter what the reason, its created mass confusion.

    Which is the point of the oo article.

    Interesting the letter linked to in the catallaxy article. Even that agrees that the number of smokers is still declining. Kind of blows the oo article out of the water lol

  37. June 17, 2014 8:08 pm

    “Because that is how they have always determined the number of smokers.”

    Got a link for that?

  38. El Oh El permalink
    June 17, 2014 8:21 pm

    “Even that agrees that the number of smokers is still declining. Kind of blows the oo article out of the water lol”

    Not really. The Australian article was based on the (increased) number of sticks sold. The number of smokers has been declining for decades. Nobody disputes that. “lol”

  39. TB Queensland permalink
    June 17, 2014 8:34 pm

    The number of smokers has been declining for decades. Nobody disputes that. “lol”

    So WGAF if the trend is good … mmmmm … another look over there …

    Now … this stupid BUDGET?

  40. GMAFB permalink
    June 17, 2014 8:37 pm

    “another look over there”

    Is it? I would have said it’s precisely on topic. The BUDGET, however …

  41. TB Queensland permalink
    June 17, 2014 8:51 pm

    Oh, yes, ToSY, sorry … just taking a lead from your comments over the years … 🙂

    … oh nad *clink* …

  42. egg permalink
    June 17, 2014 8:54 pm

    ‘That’s why you don’t need to tell us, egg …’

    Oh, right …

  43. Cheers Qld-er permalink
    June 17, 2014 8:55 pm

    😉 *clink*

  44. June 17, 2014 9:08 pm

    Speaks Volumes about the motives of The Oz… Big Tobacco is full of born to rule king makers… Most of the NSW branch of the Fibs was cosy with BAT.. they held fundraisers all the time. As for Squeals cheap plonk…splains alot dunnit.

  45. Big Bong permalink
    June 17, 2014 9:14 pm

    Don’t worry about Big Tobacco. The latest “industry” leftoids want to pre-emptively demonise is Big Marijuana.

    Innit.

  46. egg permalink
    June 17, 2014 9:39 pm

    Australia is not the US, but drug law reform is definitely going to be on the political agenda.

  47. June 17, 2014 9:50 pm

    Decrim Dope and let people grow it so they can eat it and you will sort two problems out.. Pain relief and cash flow for crooks who use pot money to finance other stuff. the war on drugs is a bit like Iraq and Vietnam, unwinable.

  48. egg permalink
    June 17, 2014 10:18 pm

    So we don’t commercialise cannabis, yet allow people to grow their own. This would eliminate criminal activity and empty the gaols, but wouldn’t raise any tax.

    Not a bad idea Ricky, isn’t this what they already do in Canberra and South Australia?

  49. Tom R permalink
    June 17, 2014 10:40 pm

    Not really. The Australian article was based on the (increased) number of sticks sold.

    So, the number of smokers is still going down, admitted by everyone, yet the cancer lobby reckons the “industry volumes” (not sure if that is the actual number sold, or ordered) is increasing?

    But, with the numbers of actual smokers decreasing still, any figure, no matter how rubbery, isn’t going to prove, as the oz stated, that the plain packaging wasn’t working.

    Even your link to catalaxxy, using their rubbery figures, disagree with the oz

    the early evidence isn’t very supportive of the policy.

    That sure aint the same as Labor’s plain packaging fails as cigarette sales rise

    In fact, the early evidence, on every measure except the one dodgy one the oz latched onto, which could or could not mean anything, is that, the numbers are still decreasing across the board.

    Something the oz (and cancer creators) just cannot stomach it appears, for which reason, we can only guess at.

    But this comment from BATA perked my interest.
    http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/1420_bata.pdf

    Further, the number of cigarettes smoked on a daily basis declined at a rate of -1.9 per cent in the
    five years leading up to plain packaging, while it slowed to -1.4 per cent after green packs hit
    shelves.

    So, on the one hand, the oz is claiming that the number of cigarettes sold (or “industry volumes” whatever that is) is growing, yet BATA confirm that the number of cigarettes smoked a day is decreasing.

    None of the figures the cancer industry put out seem to correlate with each other.

    Which I guess is why we use ABS 😉

    Got a link for that?

    You should know me by now tosy 😉

    http://thekouk.com/blog/ms-sloan-and-the-volume-of-tobacco-consumed.html#.U6A2u3bpASQ

  50. June 17, 2014 11:09 pm

    If you remove criminality and criminal incentive then the flow on effect is killing a heap of problems in one hit..

    1: you starve the criminal syndicates that use the money for other drugs and arms
    2: You remove Criminal incentive. and corruption
    3: Stop this ridiculous criminal record for people using pot
    4: It would drive the price down and people would start eating it which is much healthier
    5: People could use it for a multitude of medicinal purposes (its original use)
    6: It is much easier to control
    7: It frees up law enforcement resources to fight real crime.

    Unlike Tobacco when used appropriately it is not addictive and medicinal far less harmful than painkillers as opioids. Canibis and hemp were caught up in the war on drugs lobbied by companies like Dupont back in the 30’s. Traditional prohibition has failed miserably and if decriminalisation was uniform across the nation, it would have economic and sociological benefits…Fuck the Christian lobby and their moralist bullshit, its backward and counter productive to have such draconian drug laws

  51. Big Bong Theory permalink
    June 18, 2014 12:22 am

    “Well, the figures do allow us to precisely let us know what is happening to the consumption of tobacco and cigarettes. Sorry Ms Sloan, but the figures I used are the chain volume or quantity measures, as was stated several times in the initial post, which is, by definition the VOLUME of tobacco and cigarette consumed by the household sector on a quarterly basis back to 1959. This is a pretty basic misunderstanding for Ms Sloan when it comes to the construct of the national accounts by the Australian Bureau of Statistics.”

    Actually, this is a pretty basic understanding by the Kouk. The “chain volume” figure used by the ABS is a measure only of $ Millions spent, not the number of sticks consumed. The ABS never addresses the number of sticks consumed, and $ Millions spent can never quantify this.

  52. Big Bong Theory permalink
    June 18, 2014 12:25 am

    Ricky and I are in furious agreement on Teh War On Drugs, it seems.

  53. Big Bong Theory permalink
    June 18, 2014 12:30 am

    *misunderstanding

  54. June 18, 2014 12:40 am


    Innit.”

    Yes, it inn!

    Go Big Ganja, says I.

    Each to their own & most things in moderation.

  55. June 18, 2014 12:44 am

    The case against for!

  56. June 18, 2014 12:45 am

    Bongs take the edge off of the lungsear, but aren’t as inconspicuous as noseburners.

  57. Big Bong Theory permalink
    June 18, 2014 12:45 am

    We have a triumverate.

  58. June 18, 2014 12:47 am

    The simple point is…if you try to ban it, it will proliferate.

    However, nicoteine hasn’t been banned. Its Corporate Wing (muscular as it is, preying on addiction) is simply having its gaudy reach curtailed.

  59. June 18, 2014 12:48 am

    We have a victim of bush choof!

  60. Ninja et Yolandi permalink
    June 18, 2014 12:56 am

    “The simple point is…if you try to ban it, it will proliferate.”

    Pretty much what this argument is about. Will hiding-in-plain-sight i.e. “plain packaging” curtail usage? Too early to tell, despite TomR’s and Teh Kouk’s protestations.

  61. June 18, 2014 1:06 am

    I think maybe it’s too early to tell. I do support Monolithic Predatory (read, showing a willingness to go after the young in other markets) Tobacco being pursued & curtailed though.

  62. June 18, 2014 1:07 am

    Is triumvirate a play on words, or are you from viictoria struggling at this late hour? 🙂

  63. Why me? permalink
    June 18, 2014 1:12 am

    The line between the old and the young infringes on both.

  64. Statesman permalink
    June 18, 2014 1:15 am

    ” are you from viictoria struggling at this late hour?”

    Yep.

  65. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 6:19 am

    Pretty much what this argument is about. Will hiding-in-plain-sight i.e. “plain packaging” curtail usage? Too early to tell, despite TomR’s and Teh Kouk’s protestations.

    You misunderstand completely again tosy.

    I am not claiming, and I don’t think the kouk is either specifically, that plain packaging is working (personally, I think it is too early to tell). What I am saying is that the data, to date, does not really show one way or the other. The oz claimed that one small subset of data, from a dubious source, that does not seem to match ANY other data available, even their own, is PROOF that it has failed. That is most obviously not true.

    Also, in your dismissal of the ABS measurement, and blind acceptance of the cancer creators measurement, I hope you do not forget that “cigarette sticks” come in many sizes and quality, both in relation to how quickly they burn, and how much actual tobacco is in them. This is particularly true for cheaper ciggies, that burn much faster.

    So many uncertainties, that have not (as far as we know) been addressed in the figures used by the oz in their assumption.

    Me, I’ll stick with the measurements that have been usedfor years. That way we can get a better picture over time of what is happening.

    The real measure of success here though will be the rate of people taking it up, as this is who the plain packaging is aimed at. I haven’t seen that anywhere in this “debate”

    In essence, the oz has lied again, not specifically with the numbers they used (dodgy as they are) but with hte verdict they drew from such a meaningless figure, as the ABC and many others has shown.. And yet you still defend them? And as an added bonus, continue to misrepresent what I am saying.

  66. egg permalink
    June 18, 2014 7:23 am

    ‘Traditional prohibition has failed miserably and if decriminalisation was uniform across the nation, it would have economic and sociological benefits…’

    The Spanish model.

    ‘Recently several charitable cannabis clubs were founded in Spain, whose lawfulness was now confirmed by courts in Catalonia and the Basque region. People join to grow cannabis together and distribute it to members of the club at cost price. Only members have access to the growing rooms and the cannabis. In Spain trade with cannabis is prohibited, but possession for personal use is legal.’

  67. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 7:36 am

  68. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 7:39 am

  69. egg permalink
    June 18, 2014 7:41 am

    ‘SA has had the most relaxed of all decriminalised states for the longest of all as they were the first to institute them in 1987. The lowdown is possession of up to 100 grams of marijuana, 20 grams of hash (the resin from the cannabis plant), one non-hydroponic plant or cannabis smoking equipment leads to a fine from $50 to $150 with 60 days to pay it.’

  70. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 7:50 am

    SA also saw a huge influx of bikies accessing back yard growers looking for a quick buck.

    The bikies have done very well out of that law thank you very much 😉

  71. egg permalink
    June 18, 2014 7:54 am

    That’s why its important for the other states to follow in SA’s footsteps, otherwise its distorting the market.

  72. egg permalink
    June 18, 2014 7:58 am

    ‘ANTI-smoking measures are driving a boom in cheap cigarettes, with smokers buying more cigarettes from the lowest market segment and, industry data ­suggests, pushing up sales and frustrating health policies.

    ‘Neilsen data indicates that 42.3 per cent of all cigarettes now purchased are priced at less than $15 a pack — a rise from 25.6 per cent of the market in 2011 and 35.2 per cent at the end of last year.’

    Oz

  73. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 8:01 am

    And you can have ya bikies back then 🙂

    I’m not against the de-criminilizing, in fact, I wish he other states would follow, just highlighting one of the downsides of what happened here when it was introduced.

    Mind you, we did have a mini “green” boom here as cashed up growers went out spending all their recently acquired wealth.

    Maybe something to be considered for future GFC’s 😉

  74. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 8:01 am

  75. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 8:02 am

  76. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 8:34 am

    The Kouk has his article up. Have fun with it peeps. Real life calls 😉

    http://thekouk.com/blog/smoking-fact-deniers-out-in-force.html#.U6DBjLHMpGN

  77. egg permalink
    June 18, 2014 8:55 am

    Here is your 5.3% drop in consumption.

    ‘CRIME gangs are cashing in on the high cost of cigarettes by smuggling container loads of illegal tobacco products into the country.

    ‘Viewed as a high-return, low-risk alternative to hard drugs, bootleggers are using shipping containers and crew from airlines to smuggle packaged and loose tobacco into Australia.

    ‘Smokers are turning to illegal tobacco because it costs half the price of legal products.

    ‘A Customs “profitability scenario” said a 40-foot shipping container held more than 9 million cigarette sticks.

    ‘The overseas price for 10 million sticks costs $60,000-$80,000 and on the Australian black market it sells for $3 million-$4 million – a 4900 per cent increase. About one in 20 containers are X-rayed.’

    Viellaris / Sunday Mail

  78. Splatterbottom permalink
    June 18, 2014 9:12 am

    “However, nicoteine hasn’t been banned. Its Corporate Wing (muscular as it is, preying on addiction) is simply having its gaudy reach curtailed.”

    The good thing about the new laws is that Big Tobacco hates them. It may be because they are losing market share because they can’t peddle the glamour of their brand to differentiate themselves.

    They seem to like buying political influence be it with the Liberal party or the HSU.

  79. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 18, 2014 9:16 am

    Senator Louise Pratt on School Chaplaincy:
    http://thatsmyphilosophy.wordpress.com/2014/06/18/senator-louise-pratt-on-school-chaplaincy/
    …Last week, the LGBT rights organisation All Out ran a survey inviting Australians to share their stories of school chaplains. Over 2,200 people responded, including over 1,000 high-school students aged 13 to 18. Many of these students came from WA and 15 per cent identified as L, G, B or T. The Australian community has been debating school chaplains for some time, but this is the first time that we have heard from the students themselves, and the stories that they have shared are overwhelming. We have heard dozens of firsthand student accounts that describe chaplains as being explicitly anti-gay. Here is one short excerpt:…

  80. June 18, 2014 9:18 am

    I mean the whole Big Tobacco thing is ridiculous.. These fucking drug cartels can deny all they want, its not like they have a history of denial that there product is a carcinogenic killer that would not get to 1st base if submitted or approval. These fuckers are worse than smack dealers, just as immoral and have the libertarians on their side. Plane packaging works.

    I think Walrus’s proposition is fantastic and I am in 100% agreeance, Medical prescription not on the PBS. The more expensive and harder it is to get with the most hassle, the more people will be free of theis monkey. People are nothing compared to the drain on taxpayers from smokers… yeah they pay tax blah blah, but they unnecessarily clog up the health system, something the big tobacco robber baron cartel pushers deny.

    The Bikies got most of their money for the speed trade from Pot. Hydro is dangerous and filled with cenegenics ect…it has been proliferated by the illegal trade. I’m not a huge dope smoker but everyone knows that bush bud is the best, a nice cookie, sprinkled over your pasta or in a lovely tea with some splif scones..

  81. egg permalink
    June 18, 2014 9:56 am

    I’ll put this up again for those who may have missed it.

    http://themindunleashed.org/2013/12/new-study-magic-mushrooms-repair-brain-damage-extreme-trauma.html

  82. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    June 18, 2014 10:16 am

    The prescription for smoking is a good idea*

    I’m not in favour of simple legalisation of grass, there is too much evidence of it’s effects on mental health. I’m quite happy for it also to be available by prescription for medical treatment. Legal status confers legitimacy and this isn’t in the public interest.

    *Medical prescription combined with the $7 co-payment is an even more effective deterrent.

  83. June 18, 2014 10:22 am

    Egg this is not new. Most Pharmaceutical companies have been plagerising organic compounds from ancient cultures since the mid 1800’s even trying to patent them both naturally and synthetically. The rest they lobby out of the market as “illegal drugs”. Dupont invented nylon so they lobbied against Hemp and demonised it as pot. History is littered with such corporate nonsense. This is prevalent in the Australian story with the rear guard from the IPA ass clowns. Thank goodness for mediawatch, to shine the light on this abomination of truth.

    These fuckwits at the IPA started the modern Fiberal party and pull the strings, its just people like Squeal who blindly follow them without looking at the big game, blinded by the entrenched hatred they feed him in the lies of agenda propaganda.

  84. June 18, 2014 10:25 am

    The Segment in Question
    http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s4026465.htm

  85. Splatterbottom permalink
    June 18, 2014 11:03 am

    “Most Pharmaceutical companies have been plagerising organic compounds from ancient cultures since the mid 1800′s even trying to patent them both naturally and synthetically.”

    Drugs that are not patentable, like Lithium, or which have come out of patent are anathema to drug companies who would prefer to sell much more expensive substitutes.

  86. TB Queensland permalink
    June 18, 2014 11:14 am

    Thanks for that titbit, sb … I didn’t know lithium was used as a drug … I knew some of its industrial uses as an additive …

    But just researched it after your comment …

    As long as I learn something knew each day! 🙂

  87. Meta permalink
    June 18, 2014 11:14 am

    (Why can’t responsible permaculturalists grow tobacco as a traditional and natural pesticide?)

  88. Splatterbottom permalink
    June 18, 2014 11:21 am

    It was an Australian, John Cade, who discovered the medical use of Lithium, TB.

  89. egg permalink
    June 18, 2014 1:03 pm

    ‘I’m not in favour of simple legalisation of grass, there is too much evidence of it’s effects on mental health.’

    Certainly for those with a predisposition to mental illness, but for the great majority its benign. There is also a strong link between alcohol abuse and mental health, just sayin’.

  90. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 1:10 pm

    These numpties are stuck in the moment, no idea what to do going forward, just intent on destroying what has been,

    The team reviewing the national school curriculum for the Abbott government has failed to offer any concrete suggestions for change in its interim report.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/17/school-curriculum-review-fails-to-offer-suggestions-for-change

  91. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 1:13 pm

    Another day, another broken promise

    A program which helps Aboriginal people transition back into society after release from prison has been axed by the Abbott Government, breaking a Coalition commitment to maintain frontline services in the wake of significant cuts to Indigenous affairs spending.

    https://newmatilda.com/2014/06/17/abbott-govt-breaks-promise-black-legal-services

  92. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 1:15 pm

  93. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 1:23 pm

    The oz, instead of correcting it’s lies, just lies more

  94. June 18, 2014 1:41 pm

    Wasn;t The Australian a newspaper once?

  95. Not Knowing, Can't Say permalink
    June 18, 2014 1:42 pm

    Nowhere in this “debate” has anyone produced evidence that The Australian’s claims – regarding increased number of sticks sold – are bogus. In other word’s, that they “lied”, as has been Tom R’s constant mantra.

    The Health Department, which weighed into this debate today, says the following:

    “Question: Have tobacco sales increased since the introduction of tobacco plain packaging on 1 December 2012?
    Answer: Tobacco sales data are not publicly available.”

    http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/tobacco-kff

  96. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 3:12 pm

    Nowhere in this “debate” has anyone produced evidence that The Australian’s claims – regarding increased number of sticks sold – are bogus. In other word’s, that they “lied”, as has been Tom R’s constant mantra.

    Again tosy, you have misrepresented me. Well done on consistency 😉

    I haven’t claimed the oz lied because of their rubbery figures (which now DO look to be if not wrong, then completely misleading, as the tweets above attest to), but because they then deduced, from this one narrow set of rubbery figures that the plain packaging wasn’t working. THAT was the lie. The use of shadowy, rubbery, and now highly suspect figures, just doesn’t help them.

    kerr stated, pretty categorically, that these figures proved the plain packaging didn’t work. Even IF they were correct (which it now appears they weren’t), only a fool, or a pathological liar, would claim the impact he did. Since his mistake has been highlighted, many times, and since they are now bunkering down, I think that the fool argument can be dispensed with.

    https://theguttertrash.com/2014/05/30/rostrum-toons-and-loons-edition/#comment-60622

  97. Jury's Out permalink
    June 18, 2014 3:40 pm

    “hey then deduced, from this one narrow set of rubbery figures that the plain packaging wasn’t working. THAT was the lie.”

    Nobody can prove that plain packaging has worked, so nobody can prove The Australian is wrong. Hence, no lie. Bold, debatable statement, maybe, but not a lie.

  98. Trend Line permalink
    June 18, 2014 3:44 pm

    The numbers you are looking for

    “There is a long-term downward trend in tobacco usage in Australia. We all know and understand this to be the case. But look at the impact policy has had on usage. Nothing. The downward trend doesn’t seem to respond much to ever increasing regulation.

    “Must be fantastic work – regulate an industry and have no metric to demonstrate the efficacy of any particular policy.”

  99. Walrus permalink
    June 18, 2014 3:52 pm

    “Nobody can prove that plain packaging has worked, so nobody can prove The Australian is wrong.””

    Precisely………………….!

    It might be a factor…………………..it might be the only factor………………………it might one part of a number of factors (i.e. excise increases, price competition, stocking variabilities,) but no single factor can be proven on its own

  100. Walrus permalink
    June 18, 2014 3:55 pm

    Meanwile Coles Supermarket’s has got burnt over its Bakery policies which have been toasted in the Federal Court today

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/coles-guilty-over-false-freshly-baked-bread-claims-20140618-3addf.html

  101. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 4:04 pm

    “Nobody can prove that plain packaging has worked, so nobody can prove The Australian is wrong.””

    Precisely………………….!

    WOW

    I AGREE!

    Then why does the oz continue to say that this meaningless number (which flies in the face of ALL other available data) continue with the LIE that “Labor’s plain packaging fails as cigarette sales rise”

    That is not an opinion, it is stated as fact in a news article. It is quite obviously incorrect, as the link you just put up showed. In fact, it could have been the thing that kept the numbers going down. Who knows? NOBODY. Yet the oz pretends to tell us they do because of some rubbery figures that could just have been made up.

    They are full of shit, they are charlatans, and they continue to LIE to their readers on this subject (along with many others)

    The falsity of their claim has been highlighted, yet not only do they not retract the claim, they have bunkered down and continued to mangle data in order to try and maintain the lie.

    Bias gone crazy

  102. Walrus permalink
    June 18, 2014 4:07 pm

    “WOW

    I AGREE! ”

    ROFLMAO………………………………Gotcha………………!

    ” If Nanny Roxon’s scheme can make a difference””

    The ACTUAL data indicates that it most certainly HAS.

    —-Tom R 10:26am 6 June 2014

  103. June 18, 2014 4:40 pm

    Nanny Roxon? WTF? “Roxon’s legislative legacy is monumental in political terms, credit where credit is due.

    Ask yourself this question… if it hasn’t worked why are those fucking immoral assassins @ Big Tobacco so postally feral on it?

    No doubt other factors are at play, with price a large consideration to the bottom line.
    The Very fact that this shit is on the front page of the Un-straylin is empirical proof that it may well be not only working, but mortally wounding their profits in a precedent that will have a domino effect around the world…

    Take their denial as a big fat Yes, because sure a shit they are not going to release one iota of info that is going to derail their mantra of nicotine goodness, nanny state malarkey.

  104. TB Queensland permalink
    June 18, 2014 4:42 pm

    Bugger me the Irish will be kickin’ themselves then … they’ve introduced a similar concept …

    ‘Course its made a difference that’s why all the fkn fuss … what beats me is the pig-headed defence of the Oz …

  105. Walrus permalink
    June 18, 2014 4:51 pm

    “”… if it hasn’t worked why are those fucking immoral assassins @ Big Tobacco so postally feral on it?””

    I’m not saying it hasn’t assisted. But Kouks is carrying on as though its the only thing that mattered in that period. And TomR is feeding that delusion.

    I’m quite happy to see Big Tobacco cop it in the neck

  106. June 18, 2014 5:05 pm

    what beats me is the pig-headed defence of the Oz …

    Well 2+2 = IPA.. An IPA stooge writes an article for Big Backy on the front page no less and it is smashed into oblivion by the anvil of truth.. What’s left to do? Eat shit and play the man. There is no doubt, as Walrus pointed out, that other contributing factors are in play but Plain Packaging is a mortal body blow that will have serious repercussions around the world as a precedent just as those fucktards saying “No it don’t do nuffin, its totally harmless” before congress did…

    I would like to point out that The IPA is the knitting circle that started the modern Liberal party.. Set up by Packer and Murdoch SNR and Lang Hancock among others… just sayin

  107. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 5:06 pm

    The ACTUAL data indicates that it most certainly HAS.

    You did see the word “indicates” in there, didn’t you wally? Perhaps the oz should have employed similar language

    And TomR is feeding that delusion.

    Rubbish. I am highlighting another oz LIE!

  108. armchair opionator permalink
    June 18, 2014 5:10 pm

    “There is also a strong link between alcohol abuse and mental health, just sayin’.”

    There’s a link between tobacco and drugs (prescription and others) and mental health too, pretty much abuse whatever they can when in mental torment.

  109. Walrus permalink
    June 18, 2014 5:16 pm

    Coles and Woolworths……..?

    If I had my way I’d break both of them up.

    Dan Murphy’s for fucks sake even charges supplier rebates for the privilege of selling by the case.

    How do I know…………?…………I asked one of the Dan Murphy’s managers

    Question: “Why is it that I can only buy Brand X Wine by the bottle to make up a half dozen to get the case discount ?”

    Answer : “They refuse to pay to be kept on the shelf as 2 sales units those units being by a single bottle unit and a case unit”

    So therefore they don’t get sold in the same volumes as the supplier needs to pay for the bulk buy convenience

  110. armchair opionator permalink
    June 18, 2014 5:17 pm

    “Nowhere in this “debate” has anyone produced evidence that The Australian’s claims – regarding increased number of sticks sold – are bogus.”

    Have the tobacco companies released the raw data so that their claim can be independently tested? That would be the best way to prove or disprove the claim.

  111. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 5:20 pm

    From the AMA

    “The actions of the tobacco industry in manipulating statistics and engaging in dirty tricks marketing are deplorable – and should not be promoted or encouraged.

    “The key statistic is that the number of smokers in Australia fell in 2013 by 1.4 per cent (ABS).

    https://ama.com.au/media/ama-condemns-australians-promotion-smoking-and-big-tobacco

    There is a link to a Department of Health publication at the end of the article. In there it a says

    The Commonwealth Treasury has further advised that tobacco clearances (including excise and customs duty) fell by 3.4% in 2013 relative to 2012 when tobacco plain packaging was introduced.

  112. armchair opionator permalink
    June 18, 2014 5:22 pm

    I see James Ashby has dropped his appeal two weeks before trial – no surprise there.

  113. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 18, 2014 5:23 pm

    Well this topic shows one thing. People read The Australian. Lefties as well.

  114. Walrus permalink
    June 18, 2014 5:31 pm

    They read it to keep up their anger levels Neil.

    Logic gets them fired up……………………………..LOL

  115. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 18, 2014 5:39 pm

    And then they wonder why Rupert has 70% of the market. Nobody wants to read leftie crap. Not even lefties.

  116. Walrus permalink
    June 18, 2014 5:43 pm

    “…(including excise and customs duty)….””

    Yeah, customs duty is down because you can now only purchase 50 sticks upon re-entering Australia as opposed to 250 sticks prior to 2012.

    Ask any smoking tourist.

  117. June 18, 2014 5:47 pm

    Coles and Woolworths……..?
    If I had my way I’d break both of them up.

    Especially Woolworths. Roll into a town,

    1 set up in the middle, put the other markets outta business,
    2 buy any surrounding land to knock out competition,
    3 Buy the local pub, sews up the grog and the Pokies
    4 Buy a petrol station that subsidises groceries
    5 Floods imports
    6 Screws suppliers
    7 Price fixing cohersion

    So Food, Grog, Ciggies, Petrol and gamblin…

    Stitched Coff up when I was there… should not be legal.

  118. June 18, 2014 5:55 pm

    And then they wonder why Rupert has 70% of the market.

    Squeals big contribution.. sticking up for a Cash for comment IPA bullshit for Big Tobacco thats nothing more than propaganda swathed in Lies on the front page of a News flagship losing money hand over fist… masquerading as Journalism denounced unanimously from every quarter in the Country….

    Gee theres empirical proof of why Murdoch has 70% of the market in a well constructed analysis… wow how underwhelming 🙄

  119. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 5:56 pm

    Logic gets them fired up

    You spelt ‘lies’ wrong.

  120. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 5:59 pm

    The question is, why is the oz lying so loudly and so obviously in defense of cancer creators? Does their hatred of any successful Labor policy run so deep?

  121. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 18, 2014 6:04 pm

    Squeals big contribution.. sticking up for a Cash for comment IPA bullshit for Big Tobacco thats nothing more than propaganda swathed in Lies”

    No. I just made the obvious comment. People read The Australian.

  122. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 6:07 pm

    People read The Australian.

    DOH!

  123. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 6:09 pm

    The oz seems to thing creating cancer is akin to AGW Denial. They are just as willfully stupid, and blatantly dishonest. This then makes sense 🙂

  124. June 18, 2014 6:19 pm

    People read The Australian.

    Well around 14% less than last year and its no wonder when they print this type of contemptible shit masquerading as journalism.

    http://mumbrella.com.au/news-corps-australian-newspaper-revenues-fall-350m-three-times-fairfax-179273

  125. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 6:22 pm

    contemptible shit masquerading as journalism.

    They stopped masquerading quite a while ago Ricky

  126. egg permalink
    June 18, 2014 6:27 pm

    ‘The oz seems to thing creating cancer is akin to AGW Denial. They are just as willfully stupid, and blatantly dishonest.’

    Hmmm…..speaking on behalf of the Denialati we have no connection to big tobacco, oil or coal. As for who is dishonest and wilfully stupid, the irony burns.

    The Guardian is shouting for a Double D election, which is OK in our book. Bring it on!

  127. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 6:29 pm

    we have no connection to big tobacco

    Yes you do, the oz and ltdnews

  128. egg permalink
    June 18, 2014 6:35 pm

    Your obsession with hate media is up with Neil’s The Howard Years, maintain your rage comrade.

  129. Big Bong Theory permalink
    June 18, 2014 6:52 pm

    “Your obsession with hate media”

    Yep, obsession is about right. But there has to be an explanation when the electorate votes out a government as good and benevolent as Rudd/Gillard/Rudd Labor. The answer? Murdoch lies and the sheeple believe him, because they’re stoopid.

  130. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 7:06 pm

    Murdoch lies

    I AGREE!

    But do you still believe that some rubbery figures from the tobacco industry show that “Labor’s plain packaging fails as cigarette sales rise ”

    Or do you accept the remaining data that shows, if anything, that the policy is actually bolstering all of the other activities that continue to drive down the rate of smoking?

  131. Labor Man permalink
    June 18, 2014 7:20 pm

    “But do you still believe”

    Like I said upthread, it’s too early to tell. But Labor boosters like yourself will defend the policy against all comers, like you have every other Labor policy. Face it, Tom R, in your eyes, Labor can do no wrong.

  132. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    June 18, 2014 7:24 pm

    Hmm, about 1 in 200 people (Mon-Fri) buy The Australian. On Saturdays this surges to about 1 in 100.

    It gets a lot of attention for a rag that is hardly scanned by anyone.

  133. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 7:31 pm

    It gets a lot of attention for a rag that is hardly scanned by anyone.

    It is still the main driver of the news cycle in this country, probably because the stablemates, who have such a large monopoly between them, still adhere to its message.

    Like I said upthread, it’s too early to tell.

    So, you agree that the oz is lying when it says that this dubious data confirms that the policy is failing? It’s a simple question, do you have a simple answer?

    Do remember, I am not defending the policy here, I am attacking the oz for lying again. This is the umpteenth time I have said it tosy, so do endeavor to stop misrepresenting me.

  134. Eyes Up permalink
    June 18, 2014 7:34 pm

    “So, you agree that the oz is lying when it says that this dubious data confirms that the policy is failing? It’s a simple question, do you have a simple answer?”

    I’ve already answered this one.

    https://theguttertrash.com/2014/06/17/new-data-confirms-the-australian-lied-about-tobacco-consumption/#comment-62383

  135. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 18, 2014 7:40 pm

    What gets me is that Tom R says he cares about lies. But he links to Stephen Koukoulas. The worst liar on the internet i have ever seen.

  136. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 7:43 pm

    That’s not answering my question, that’s just bringing up the straw-man of dueling data sets. All that confirms is that nobody knows what the specific little data set the oz is mangling actually is. BUT, all other data shows a continuing decline in smoking, at odds with their figures. So my question still remains.

    Do you agree that the oz is wrong to claim that the policy has failed because of this one set of tobacco sponsored figures?

  137. Tom R permalink
    June 18, 2014 7:46 pm

    But he links to Stephen Koukoulas. The worst liar on the internet i have ever seen.

    Are you able to dispute any of the figures he has put up in relation to this, or do you just want to play the man?

    The oz tried that today, and he handed their asses back to them in logic.

  138. June 18, 2014 8:33 pm

    I will put my new Texan Hat on the fact that Squeal would not even come close to understanding any of the Kouks economic analysis as:
    There’s the Kouk
    A skilled and talented economist with over 25 years experience in treasury and the high end private sector who cuts through bulshit like butter…

    and

    There’s Squeal

    An economic Nobody living in the past henpecking bullshit with cntC CntV childish parroting of the worst economic managers in Australian politics..the fiberals.

    Here’s a challenge squeal; instead of your normal monotonous bullshit.. Pick any article written by the Kouk and prove him wrong..any article you like, your call. Lets see you put up or shut the fuck up.

    GO THE BLUES !!!!

  139. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 18, 2014 8:52 pm

    Australian Medical Association accuses The Australian of promoting smoking:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/18/australian-medical-association-accuses-the-australian-of-promoting-smoking

    …“If we used tobacco industry claims to guide health policy, life expectancy in Australia would be much lower than it is today.”

    The Cancer Council said the tobacco industry’s misinformation campaign was “aimed at undermining the introduction of plain packaging in the UK”.

    “In a country of 63 million people, plain packaging would be a major blow to the tobacco industry’s profits,” Prof Olver said…

  140. Q&A permalink
    June 18, 2014 8:54 pm

    “That’s not answering my question”

    Yes, it is. It’s just not the answer you want.

  141. June 18, 2014 9:00 pm

    An Interesting perspective on a desperate broadsheet where the front page is up for sale.

    http://neilchenoweth.com/2014/03/25/how-much-is-the-australian-losing/

  142. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 18, 2014 9:38 pm

    The worst liar on the internet i have ever seen.

    no neil, just look in the mirror.

    All that confirms is that nobody knows what the specific little data set the oz is mangling actually is.

    yes, if they won’t open the data up to scrutiny you can safely assume they’ve fudged it.

  143. WhyshouldIgiveyoumydatawhenallyouwanttodoisfindsomethingwrongwithit? permalink
    June 18, 2014 9:48 pm

    “yes, if they won’t open the data up to scrutiny you can safely assume they’ve fudged it.”

    Sounds strangely familiar. Still, it’s sure to have been peer-reviewed.

  144. Intellectual Property Rights permalink
    June 18, 2014 10:09 pm

    “Even if WMO agrees, I will still not pass on the data. We have 25 or so years invested in the work. Why should I make the data available to you, when your aim is to try and find something wrong with it.” ~ Phil Jones

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmsctech/memo/climatedata/uc3502.htm

  145. Smoke Deniers permalink
    June 18, 2014 10:33 pm

    Kouk has the language down pat, too: “Smoking fact deniers”. This is how ex Gillard staffers Keynesian economists describe those with whom they disagree.

    http://thekouk.com/blog/smoking-fact-deniers-out-in-force.html#.U6GFj5SSySo

  146. June 18, 2014 11:15 pm

    l have no doubt Limited-News is peddling the corporate tobacco songbook, to influence Ireland? to not go `plain-pack`, of course Limited-News is bullshit. l would just point-out there is NO MEASURE What-So-Ever of the black-market, and still reckon the has been a transfer of smokers onto the black-product.

    TB was spouting `prohibition` up-thread, which is a guaranteed failure, as all prohibition is. Take a look at what is going-on in the-usa with choof. Colorado has legalized it to some extent, along with other states `decriminalizing` user quantities. Another state will be legalizing choof too, Washington or Oregon? l forget which, and that state wants its coffers to fill, just as Colorado`s coffer has on choof-tax.

  147. June 18, 2014 11:19 pm

    Name changing Bollocks…

    Oz plumbs were served salted on a plate and tanties were the reply.
    IPA Figure Fucktardery on a for sale front page just dont wash. Big Backy know every dollar they splurge avery figure they purge.. They are just compulsive corporate fibbers, no amount of name changing dickwadding can alter that irrefutable fact..

    Se the problem with people like Squeal is they miss all the crucial stuff by ignoring people he is conditioned to hate, that is profoundly stupid.

    no neil, just look in the mirror.

    Good one AO 🙂

    Squeal we’re waiting 🙄

  148. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 19, 2014 1:03 am

    Stephen Koukoulas is not to be trusted. he twists figures. Here is an example

    http://thekouk.com/blog/more-facts-behind-the-howard-government-s-debt-elimination.html#.U6Gm_YUiit8

    The $96 billion “Labor debt” inherited by the Howard Government in 1996 comprised $39.9 billion of Fraser Government debt that carried through the Hawke/Keating period meaning that the true level of Labor debt in 1996 was $56 billion. To pay that $56 billion off, the Howard Government sold almost $72 billion of Government assets meaning the move to negative net debt was not really due to any miraculous and bold fiscal settings, but owed everything to a series of asset sales.”

    Koukoulas says that in 1996 $39.9B of the $96B debt that Howard/Costello inherited was Fraser govt debt left over from 1983. ie 40%

    Govt debt in 1983 was $16B not $39.9B

    Koukoulas also says most of Hawke/Keating debt was paid off by asset sales. Anybody could do that Koukoulas proclaims. But Kouk conveniently forgets about the $80B in the Future Fund. Where did that $80B come from Kouk??

    In fact Costello ran $100B in surplus budgets AND $72B of asset sales. So Costello saved $100B+$72B= $172B. In fact i think Costello saved more. This meant he could pay off $96B of debt and have $80B in the FF.

    Koukoulas is not stupid. He willfully tells lies. He is the worst liar i have ever seen.

  149. Tom R permalink
    June 19, 2014 8:01 am

    Yes, it is. It’s just not the answer you want.

    Sorry, for some reason, my browser settled on a different comment from you, that sisn’t answer the question. This one does, but it ignores reality, and what a lie is.

    Hence, no lie. Bold, debatable statement, maybe, but not a lie.

    But you see, it wasn’t debatable, it was a statement of fact, prominently displayed in one of Australia’s most prominent newspapers

    Labor’s plain packaging fails as cigarette sales rise

    This tells its readers that the debate has been had, and the result is in. When, in fact, as you yourself state, the actual efficacy of the plain packaging laws in reducing the consumption of tobacco is very much still in debate (although, looking at the rest of the available, trustworthy data, it doesn’t look good at all for those arguing against it). But, according to the oz, there is no debate, the answers are in, and they have them, no more questions please.

    That is a lie to their readers. I understand most readers of the oz assume they are lied to by the writers, this doesn’t change the fact that it is a lie. It was an unequivocal statement made about a still highly argued (as you yourself admit) case. It was a personal opinion, dressed up as fact, and presented as such without regard for the other vast amounts of data disputing the claim.

    But worst, after the oz was advised of the glaring mistake, did they issue an apology or correction? No, instead, they bunkered down, and re-inforced their already tattered reputation as a devious, untrustworthy organization with an aim to mislead readers, rather than inform. And they got caught out, again, and all of the usual suspects run to their defense.

    It’s laughable, in the most tragic way.

  150. egg permalink
    June 19, 2014 8:01 am

    ‘Several busts took place recently in Sydney and Melbourne, with almost 100 million illegal cigarettes seized by Customs and Border Protection.

    ‘The amount of illegal tobacco in Newcastle was small compared with that recorded in capital cities, with the study finding that the consumption of illegal product had soared to 13.9per cent nationally, its highest rate ever.’

    Newcastle Herald

  151. Tom R permalink
    June 19, 2014 8:21 am

    The oz is getting a bad name all around. As it should. Mind you, it is Mark Latham, but he does have moments of lucidity.

    None of them accused Gillard of knowing where the cash had actually come from. Rather, the commission was left with a vague impression of money floating around the house – claims that cannot be proven or disproven.

    Coincidently, early last week, ABC radio host Jon Faine aired allegations that another witness, Gillard’s former boyfriend Bruce Wilson, had been offered $200,000 by a third party to say he had funded Gillard’s renovations from an unspecified source.

    If Wilson had accepted the alleged bribe, he’d have added to the notion of funny money drifting around Gillard’s abode. In practising the politics of personal destruction, The Australian hasn’t been after the truth. It’s been after Gillard.

    http://www.afr.com/p/opinion/there_is_no_trail_that_leads_to_g7WFnIxImpEjP2bZmclIcI

  152. Tom R permalink
    June 19, 2014 8:31 am

    Gillard shows all class again. tabot will go down as a petty, vindictive individual. Gillards legacy will be far more generous, particularly in the eyes of those not clouded by murdochs poison.

    Gillard says: “Our aim is systemic change where donor governments are playing their role, they are putting money into education. Developing country governments are stepping up and investing more of their own resources and education and we make sure that we are looking for all of the children in that nation to be in school.”

    She is offered the opportunity to lay the boot into the present Government, but, as I said, all class.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/talktojazeera/2014/05/julia-gillard-better-education-2014516142010676753.html

  153. Tom R permalink
    June 19, 2014 8:43 am

    And the kouk continues to highlight the oz’s failures

    The editorial in The Australian suggests that I was “defending the effectiveness of the [plain packaging] laws’ because I had “a stake in their introduction”.

    There are a couple of issues here. The Australian’s Adam Creighton kindly sent me an email yesterday, where he asked, “did you have any involvement in the development of the plain packaging policy when you were working for Julia Gillard?” My reply was “No – I had zero input as it was a health issue, not economic.”

    For some reason, The Australian editorial chose to ignore this. What my stake in the issue is remains a mystery.

    The other issue is that I have not defended the plain packaging laws. While I think most policies aimed at reduce smoking are worthwhile, I merely noted that the ABS data on the household consumption of tobacco highlighted, in no uncertain terms, the embarrassing errors in Christian Kerr’s story in The Australian of 6 June 2014. The volume of tobacco consumed is falling. I did note the plain packaging laws, plus the excise increase, as factors that may account for the obvious fall in consumption.

    http://thekouk.com/blog/tobacco-fact-deniers-are-at-it-again.html#.U6ISHbHMoil

    The bolds are the most pertinent bits 😉

  154. egg permalink
    June 19, 2014 8:48 am

    I have it on good authority that the editor is going to give you a hate media fred of your own, though probably not a cone of silence.

  155. Walrus permalink
    June 19, 2014 8:56 am

    “None of them accused Gillard of knowing where the cash had actually come from.”

    The problem for Gillard is she is/was adamant that she alone paid for her renovations.

    I suppose when she pays for everything from her cheque account she’s technically correct. Its just that how did the money get into the cheque account in the first place that things get sticky.

    I get a sense of Deja Vu……………………………didn’t someone when caught out in a lie try and argue the difference between a carbon tax and a carbon price. ROFLMAO

  156. Tom R permalink
    June 19, 2014 8:57 am

    I have it on good authority that the editor is going to give you a hate media fred of your own

    Is that because I am commenting about the lies the oz is telling about plain packaging on a thread titled “New Data Confirms The Australian Lied about Tobacco Consumption”? 😯

    You still remain an idiot egg.

  157. Tom R permalink
    June 19, 2014 8:59 am

    I get a sense of Deja Vu

    Which one gets is all this witch hunt wants.

    try and argue the difference between a carbon tax and a carbon price.

    You mean how one is a tax on consumption, and the other price (or a tax if you want) on production?

    I think I spot the difference, yes.

  158. Tom R permalink
    June 19, 2014 9:04 am

    tabot proves he’s gutless at the core

    Struggling in the polls, the Abbott Government has baulked at pulling its first double dissolution trigger, claiming voters want it to “get on with the job” rather than rush to another election.

    https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/24270689/abbott-baulks-at-poll-trigger/

  159. Tom R permalink
    June 19, 2014 9:04 am

    As does ashby

    After more than two years of legal wrangling, including his case being thrown out of court as an abuse of process before an appeal declared it should be heard, Mr Ashby has dropped his suit less than a fortnight before the trial was to start.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/james-ashby-drops-sexual-harassment-suit-against-peter-slipper-20140618-zsd63.html#ixzz352E29SMG

  160. TB Queensland permalink
    June 19, 2014 10:26 am

    More evidence of Robber Barons at play work …

    Australia’s Coles supermarket chain faces fines of up to $3.3 million (€ 2.27million) for passing off bread as “fresh, baked today and sold today” when in fact it had been first baked in Ireland, Denmark and Germany months earlier.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/australian-supermarket-faces-2-27m-fine-over-irish-bread-1.1836619

    What else is sourced overseas … and of what quality, health and hygiene standards?

  161. TB Queensland permalink
    June 19, 2014 10:58 am

    … claiming voters want it to “get on with the job” rather than rush to another election.

    More evidence that Abbott has no idea of how the “voters” think …

  162. Tom R permalink
    June 19, 2014 11:07 am

    ROFL

  163. Tom R permalink
    June 19, 2014 11:15 am

    They’re all cut from the same lying mould

  164. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 19, 2014 12:21 pm

    “They’re all cut from the same lying mould

    Too funny. Your ALP said in 2007 they would build an NBN costing taxpayers $4.7B and finished in 5 years.

  165. Tom R permalink
    June 19, 2014 12:26 pm

    I don’t think you will find anybody in the know upset with how Labor upgraded their policy.

    Which is a vast difference from promising something that those in the know knew at the time was bullshit

  166. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 19, 2014 12:42 pm

    Turnbull was faced with a mess. He obviously was not “in the know” when in Opposition. I suspect Conroy did not tell the truth as you would expect for an ALP politician.

    But i noticed you dodged the lie Labor told in 2007. They said we would have an NBN costing taxpayers $4.7B and finished in 5 years.

  167. Tom R permalink
    June 19, 2014 12:46 pm

    turnbull created a mess, after attempting to disrupt and block at every stage.

    All failures now are down to him.

    It wasn’t perfect, but it was getting there. All trashed now

  168. Tom R permalink
    June 19, 2014 12:47 pm

    And it’s going global lol

    Rupert Murdoch-owned newspaper the Australian has declared in a front page “exclusive” that plain packaging for cigarettes has failed because sales have gone up.

    Under the headline “Evidence ‘world’s toughest anti-smoking laws’ not working”, it blamed the previous government, saying “Labor’s plain packaging fails as cigarette sales rise”.

    It was a great scoop. Except it isn’t true.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/smoke-and-mirrors-as-big-tobacco-fights-australian-plain-packaging-law-1.1837263

  169. Tom R permalink
    June 19, 2014 12:49 pm

  170. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 19, 2014 12:51 pm

    “It wasn’t perfect, but it was getting there. All trashed now”

    Yeah. And Swan was gunna run a surplus budget. Conroy would be dead before his NBN was finished.

  171. TB Queensland permalink
    June 19, 2014 2:03 pm

    People like, Kneel, thought the motor car would never get rid of horses …

    And I refuse to educate the dopey dick AGAIN on the benefits of NBN and the failings of current horse and cart, telephone/broadband system …

    It’ll just regurgitate the same misinformed, ignorant, tripe we’ve heard before …

  172. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 19, 2014 2:05 pm

    “All failures now are down to him.”

    Typical ALP deadbeat comment.

    Six years of failed policies and failed govt elected by failed people and now all the failures are the responsibility of the Coalition.

    Nothing more corrupt than an ALP supporter.

    Except of course Stephen Koukoulas who is the most corrupt of all.

    And of course Koukoulas was an adviser to Gillard as you would expect.

  173. June 19, 2014 2:06 pm

    “It’ll just regurgitate the same misinformed, ignorant, tripe we’ve heard before …”

    Yep, just like the weather isn’t changing, people still love smoking etc….

  174. Tom R permalink
    June 19, 2014 2:23 pm

    Except of course Stephen Koukoulas who is the most corrupt of all.

    HEY

    I thought that was me? 😯

    Sorry TB, you’re not even in the running anymore 😉

  175. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 19, 2014 2:30 pm

    “People like, Kneel, thought the motor car would never get rid of horses …

    WE had an NBN policy for rural areas in 2007. In fact we had SIGNED contracts. Conroy broke the contract, when in Opposition Conroy said he wouldn’t. The rural ares of Australia would have broadband by now if you did not vote for Dudd in 2007

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPEL_Networks

    “In June 2006, the Australian Department of Communications, Information Technology and the Arts (DCITA) under the then coalition government called for expressions of interest for discussion of how to invest up to A$878 million in funding under Broadband Connect program to provide greater access to broadband services in rural and regional areas at prices comparable to services available in metropolitan areas……..The funding agreement was signed on 2007-09-09, which was dependent upon further planning by OPEL and confirmation that it would reach the agreed levels of coverage.[6][7] The then federal opposition Communications spokesman stated that they would honour the agreement, a stance maintained after winning government two months later, despite their own competing National Broadband Network proposal…………On 2008-04-02, it was announced that the funding agreement had been cancelled

    The Coalition also had a policy for the major cities.

    WE have to go with what Labor left us because it would be too costly to start all over again.

  176. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    June 19, 2014 2:33 pm

    NBN had all sorts of side deals and non-disclosed undertakings with contractors, because the fixed price model couldn’t be delivered.

    It was way behind schedule and way over budget, just as those of us not in the know predicted.

    NBN used a trimmed down version of the costs of similar installations for Telstra, without realising that the union attraction and OHS requirements of a HUGE national rollout would slow down the project and add very significantly to costs.

  177. June 19, 2014 2:50 pm

    “Except of course Stephen Koukoulas who is the most corrupt of all.”

    Yes but is he “immoral scum?”

  178. June 19, 2014 3:00 pm
  179. egg permalink
    June 19, 2014 3:04 pm

    ‘Yep, just like the weather isn’t changing, people still love smoking etc….’

    The weather isn’t behaving abnormally, some people luv smoking and are not about to give it up without a fight. Something to do with feel good receptors.

  180. egg permalink
    June 19, 2014 3:09 pm

    ‘Claus Voegele, Professor of Clinical and Health Psychology, said: ‘All addictions are similar in that the sufferer craves to excess the feel-good buzz they receive from chemical neurotransmitters produced when they eat, gamble, smoke, have sex or take drugs.’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2657057/Food-addiction-DOES-exist-Some-people-really-lack-willpower-programmed-binge-eat.html#ixzz353haMA34
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

  181. Kouky Economics permalink
    June 19, 2014 3:28 pm

    Heh: “The ABC, of course, is free to publish Koukoulas, just as we and some of our sister organisations occasionally do. He is an experienced economist who refers to himself as “one of Australia’s leading economic visionaries”. When using him to defend Gillard-era policies, as the ABC often does, it should disregard his modesty, and identify his connection. It might even be worth explaining his analysis is not orthodox but hails from the partisan fringe of economics. For example, in December 2012 he argued that “it is still more likely than not that there will be a surplus in 2012-13”, and more recently he wrote that Australia does not face “any serious need to repair the budget”. Koukoulas, it seems, smoked a surplus but didn’t inhale.”

  182. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 19, 2014 3:36 pm

    Stephen Koukoulas is insane

    http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2013/s3751658.htm

    ” The problem with the Australian level of gross debt now and this is the Basel three requirements for looking after banks in the post GFC world is we don’t have enough debt
    .”

    WE don’t have enough debt? How much debt does this retard think we should have??

    No wonder he was an ALP adviser.

    Koukoulas is an ALP supporter. I need to say no more.

  183. Tom R permalink
    June 19, 2014 3:37 pm

    Nice to see the oz still attacking the man, and not the issue.

    But, from that article

    The point of Kerr’s article was early evidence suggesting the laws have not acted to lower smoking rates. Rather, they have triggered fierce competition on price which is making cigarettes relatively cheaper and could be leading to more cut-price cigarettes being sold.

    They obviously missed the headline, that declared, rather prominently, that “Labor’s plain packaging fails as cigarette sales rise”

    It didn’t “suggest”, it declared unequivocally.

    But now, the oz slowly attempts to re-write history, instead of re-writing the article to be more accurate, less duplicitous, not so much of a LIE!

  184. Meta permalink
    June 19, 2014 4:03 pm

    (I don’t know; cut-brand re-pricing probably is doing wonders for invaluable intellectual property rights; that in itself might be enough; and enough to vindicate the exercise with a lil gold crown on top.)

  185. TB Queensland permalink
    June 19, 2014 4:14 pm

    Sorry TB, you’re not even in the running anymore

    Talk about s-l-o-w …

    —————–

    Stephen Koukoulas is insane

    Hehe … hehe … hoho .. hoho … they’re coming to take you away … Knu — eel … hehe … hehe … hoho .. hoho … 😯 😯

  186. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 19, 2014 4:17 pm

    Stephen Koukoulas said we don’t have enough debt.

    If that is not insanity what is??

  187. Meta permalink
    June 19, 2014 4:39 pm

    (If that is not insanity what is??

    Anyone lining up to purchase AAA-rated debt as a transferable asset in an uncertain financial world; or anyone silly enough to issue loans for the investment-stage of the mining boom???)

  188. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 19, 2014 4:42 pm

    The Australian to take @ABCmediawatch to the ACMA over OUR tobacco story. No, really!

    guess these right wing warriors only advocate for their free speech!

    On another topic;

    Thank you Ron Williams of toowoomba, you’re a bit of a hero to me, may you always win!

  189. TB Queensland permalink
    June 19, 2014 4:43 pm

    If that is not insanity what is??

    You?

    ====================================

    And you lot burble on about the control of people in commo countries … not a patch on the fascists running this country … control and power!

    http://www.news.com.au/technology/online/attorneygeneral-george-brandis-set-to-crack-down-on-illegal-downloading-of-show-such-as-game-of-thrones/story-fnjwneld-1226960063776

  190. TB Queensland permalink
    June 19, 2014 4:45 pm

    Thank you Ron Williams of toowoomba, you’re a bit of a hero to me, may you always win!

    Agree with the sentiment, KL, but fear its not the end … the Canberra Control Creeps are vowing to sidestep the HC … this government becomes more loathsome each day!

  191. Meta permalink
    June 19, 2014 4:50 pm

    (Williams seems a tad obsessed with litigation.)

  192. June 19, 2014 4:51 pm

    “When Game of Thrones’ fourth season premiered in April, more Australians illegally downloaded the program than any other nationality worldwide. Australia accounted for 11.6 per cent of the piracy and Melbourne was the worst-offending city on the globe, according to TorrentFreak.”

    Winning!

  193. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 19, 2014 5:00 pm

    “or anyone silly enough to issue loans for the investment-stage of the mining boom???

    What has that got to do with the Federal govt.

    I was talking about Federal govt debt used for non-productive purposes.

    And i know Koukoulas is insane. he supports the ALP.. You do know we lost our AAA rating under Hawke/Keating. Remember when Keating said we were becoming a banana republic?

    PS. TB- why don’t you go back to doing the only thing the ALP is good at. Building detention centers. Apparently we are now starting to take people from UNHCR camps instead of your preferred option, people with money.

    Since you have no conscience i guess you do not care.

  194. Walrus permalink
    June 19, 2014 5:07 pm

    “… not a patch on the fascists running this country … control and power!….””

    So its quite OK when you are a Thief illegally downloading but you moan about Robber Barons.

    Yeah Right !

  195. Walrus permalink
    June 19, 2014 5:12 pm

    The High Court decision has a lot more to do with the way Governments operate than just providing School Chaplains.

  196. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 19, 2014 5:33 pm

    So its quite OK when you are a Thief illegally downloading but you moan about Robber Barons.”

    I was thinking the same thing myself. But lefties say if you steal from Murdoch it is not stealing.

    Trouble is while Tom Cruise may get $20M/movie lots of other people who are involved don’t get much money and movie rentals would help them survive.

  197. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 19, 2014 5:37 pm

    Legal status confers legitimacy and this isn’t in the public interest.

    why tomM? I’m interested to know why this is not in the public interest.

  198. Meta permalink
    June 19, 2014 5:45 pm

    (Updated (19 June 2014): 7:30 made the following clarification on its 18 June 2014 broadcast – “The consumer group CHOICE says it does not condone copyright piracy. It says it believes that Australians should be able to access and pay for content from overseas providers at a cheaper rate than is charged in Australia without being blocked by the government or local television operators.”

    Read more: http://www.choice.com.au/media-and-news/consumer-news/news/CHOICE-opposes-piracy-180614.aspx#ixzz354KxQuzY )

  199. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 19, 2014 5:46 pm

    The youth showing they won’t accept the bipartisan inhumanity. Lead on!

    Young Labor Left Back Revolt on Asylum Policy:
    https://newmatilda.com/2014/06/18/young-labor-left-back-revolt-asylum-policy

  200. Meta permalink
    June 19, 2014 5:51 pm

    (Moreover, I’m almost sure that The Powers That Be are doing all that they can to ensure that any Trans-Whatever Partnership fosters positive outcomes for consumers, first and foremost.)

  201. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 19, 2014 5:58 pm

    … the Canberra Control Creeps are vowing to sidestep the HC … this government becomes more loathsome each day!

    That’s the issue TB, this successful court case means that there are 100’s of other federally funded programs that can also be challenged. All it takes is for people to bring them on one by one. Yes, the govt will surely fund the states with tied grants, but I wonder if it was as easy as that, why didn’t they do it that way right from the start?

    …Twomey said the federal government would be “breathing a sigh of relief” that the ruling did not have any specific impact on other federal government grants programs – including funding to councils for road upgrades and money to community organisations for local projects.

    “What the high court could have done is knocked down the whole legislation [passed in 2012 to put such funding beyond doubt]. That could have caused major problems for the commonwealth, but it didn’t do that,” she said…

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/19/school-chaplains-struck-down-high-court

    https://newmatilda.com/2014/06/19/last-rites-school-chaplaincy-program

  202. TB Queensland permalink
    June 19, 2014 6:03 pm

    (Williams seems a tad obsessed with litigation.)

    With bloody good reason …

    The High Court decision has a lot more to do with the way Governments operate than just providing School Chaplains.

    Yes! Unfortunately … it should argue the same funds should be made available to specialists who are not religiously associated … and/or or Jews, Muslims, Buddhists or any other religion to be found in Australia …

    This whole sneaky concept was predicated on Christianity in public schools … want a particular religious education go to a religious day school or Sunday school …

    Counselling for children is massively important these days many are latch-key kids … because both parents have to work to survive … what a clever social experiment …

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    So its quite OK when you are a Thief illegally downloading but you moan about Robber Barons.

    You obviously didn’t read my earlier post, Wally (Kneel, wouldn’t bother to read it and couldn’t comprehend anyway it anyway)

    Although if you made a comment strikes me that you read it … and chose not to comprehend it … just to try and score … silly Wally, Wally …

    I actually buy the Blu-ray GoT seasons – I have the last three … but I can’t buy season four until March 2015 … they’ll get their money … but I get to watch it!

    Pair of dicks …

    Just a point on what a Robber Baron is …

    To start with, I have no problem with democracy I’m a firm believer in the process and our system of compulsory voting …

    I have no problem with, and I’m a strong advocate of, free enterprise (I’ve created enough product of my own – and trained plenty of people starting out on their own) and capitalism (I ran my own business for 16 years – with a very professional business manager, my wife, The Minister for War, Water, Finance & Fun …)

    A Robber Baron is someone who takes advantage of ordinary citizens, employees and society in general, to generate Uber Profits and/or control essential services, free market, government, shareholders and in particular anyone who legitimately competes with them …

    Robber Barons are simply – corporate bullies … or incompetent corporate bullies … wannabe Robber Barons try but aren’t quite there yet …

    But you knew all that anyway … not quite in the same league as downloading a product that I intend to buy early because I can’t buy it yet. Duh!

    Robber Barons are pretty easy to pick … just look for arseholes – there’s plenty of ’em …

  203. TB Queensland permalink
    June 19, 2014 6:14 pm

    I’m almost sure

    Good fer you, M, I’m not … 🙂

  204. Walrus permalink
    June 19, 2014 6:15 pm

    “……….I ran my own business for 16 years – with a very professional business manager,……….””

    Really…………………………?

    Well I’ll be……………………………………….who would have thought that…………………first I’ve heard that……………….actually………..come to think of it………………………..LOL

    Next thing you’ll be telling us all you were once an army conscript………………………..and wore a uniform

  205. egg permalink
    June 19, 2014 6:20 pm

    Not sure if its of any help, just asked a 13 year old do you get religious teaching. “Yeah” she replied, “one hour a fortnight and because nobody takes it seriously the chaplain just hands out lollies.”

  206. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 19, 2014 6:20 pm

    “A Robber Baron is someone who takes advantage of ordinary citizens, “

    Sounds like Craig Thomson and Michael Williamson.

  207. June 19, 2014 6:41 pm

    “the chaplain just hands out lollies.”

    So it’s just a waste of your money.

    Quelle le outrage….?

  208. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 19, 2014 6:52 pm

    religion = lollies,
    That reminds me of my dad’s story. During his childhood it was well known that there was a priest who used to tell the kids to put their hand into his pocket as he’s got lollies for them there. Only trouble was there was a big hole in his pocket and they ended up giving him a thrill! Dirty bastard.

  209. TB Queensland permalink
    June 19, 2014 6:53 pm

    Sounds like Craig Thomson and Michael Williamson.

    My gawd I think he’s got it!

  210. TB Queensland permalink
    June 19, 2014 6:55 pm

    Only trouble was there was a big hole in his pocket and they ended up giving him a thrill! Dirty bastard.

    They have woken up a bit, KL, most (all?) of the chaplains are female … and as I understand it protestant … 🙂

  211. TB Queensland permalink
    June 19, 2014 6:56 pm

    Next thing you’ll be telling us all you were once an army conscript………………………..and wore a uniform

    Did I kick the ball too far for ya, Wally?

    Or can’t you paly without referee help?

  212. egg permalink
    June 19, 2014 7:16 pm

    ‘So it’s just a waste of your money.’

    Nothing to do with me, I don’t pay tax, but it was gratifying to hear that young people don’t believe in fairy stories.

  213. June 19, 2014 7:58 pm

    #this was in my inbox,

    ”””””””””””””’A BLACK market in illegal tobacco is flourishing in the Hunter, with a new report suggesting that about one in 25 smokers are puffing away on banned imported products.

    The figure is contained in a report carried out by KPMG for the three tobacco giants, British American Tobacco Australia, Phillip Morris and Imperial Tobacco Australia.

    The three claim that the study proves the introduction of plain cigarette packaging and skyrocketing taxes is failing and fuelling a black market in illegal importation and under-the-counter sales.

    As part of the study, ‘‘spies’’ from a Swedish investigation team spent time in the Hunter combing the streets and public garbage bins for discarded cigarette packets.

    They found that 3.9 percent of the packets collected were not the approved plain packaging sold in Australia and had been sourced or bought illegally.

    http://www.theherald.com.au/story/2216054/black-market-tobacco-cigarettes-in-hunter/
    ”””””””””””””””””’

    #prohibition won`t work TB,

    folks that call for `prohibition` have not learned the lesson alfonse capone taught the world #teabags

  214. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 19, 2014 8:10 pm

  215. June 19, 2014 8:11 pm

    #as we all know, `our` Teabags are always critical of comments made without links to back-them-up, particularly Tinfoil`osy 🙂

    ”””””””””””””Alaska is poised to become the third state to legalize retail marijuana after pro-pot advocates this week cleared the signature hurdle to place an initiative on the August ballot.

    +

    Alaska follows in the footsteps of Colorado and Washington, where voters approved measures to regulate the sale of recreational marijuana for adults in November 2012. Colorado unveiled the nation’s first retail pot shops in Jan. 1, and Washington is expected to begin marijuana sales in June.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/feb/6/alaska-primed-become-third-state-legalize-retail-m/?page=all
    ””””””””””””””””””””
    #so of course the canberra teabags will remain zombie on the legalizing of medical-choof in the ever changing world

  216. June 19, 2014 8:14 pm

    looks like barry tucker wants to make himself miserable armchair 🙂

  217. egg permalink
    June 19, 2014 8:26 pm

    Jamaica is about to decriminalise, now that the US is ending prohibition.

    I’m keeping my eye on Spain as a way to go.

    ‘Barcelona has a new tourist attraction that some locals wish would disappear: a burgeoning number of “cannabis clubs,” where people can legally buy and smoke pot. Although selling marijuana is against the law in Spain, some regions allow local residents to set up nonprofit clubs whose members grow and share it for personal use. As recently as 2011, only a few dozen such groups were in the Catalonia region, which includes Barcelona. But since then, the number has risen to about 400.’

  218. June 19, 2014 8:51 pm

    ”””’Winning!”””’

    Yay Tinfoil`osy. #Go Bittorrent.

    (l notice the corporate fcukers didn`t lower `online` prices when the $au was higher and equal to the $us) #parasites #hypocrites

  219. Tom R permalink
    June 20, 2014 9:34 am

    A circuitous discussion that adds nothing but shows Sinclair Davidson sounded quite confused, which, to me, is not surprising, considering the mangling that is needed to go to to try and put his ‘case’ (which, unlike the oz, is that we don’t know if the plain packaging worked or not)

    So, he isn’t actually lying (but he is sounding very confused), but the oz still is.

    https://twitter.com/thekouk

  220. TB Queensland permalink
    June 20, 2014 9:34 am

    If James Hardie have to clean up the health mess they us left from asbestos use then why shouldn’t the tobacco companies have to cough up ( 😯 ) support from their profits?

    Smoking tobacco is recognised as one of the largest preventable causes of death and disease in Australia. Each year, smoking kills an estimated 15,000 Australians1 and costs Australia $31.5 billion in social (including health) and economic costs.

    Maybe a fund for all health issues traced back to ciggies … and while we’re at it …

    Health problems related to excess weight impose substantial economic burdens on individuals, families and communities. Data from the Australian Diabetes, Obesity and Lifestyle (AusDiab) study indicate that the total direct cost for overweight and obesity in 2005 was $21 billion ($6.5 billion for overweight and $14.5 billion for obesity). The same study estimated indirect costs of $35.6 billion per year, resulting in an overall total annual cost of $56.6 billion (Colagiuri et al. 2010).

    The fast food and fizzy/caffeine drinks could be made to contribute to their effects on society …

    There’s $87 billion paid off the budget Mr Hockey!

    And a bit left over for medical research … 🙂

  221. Splatterbottom permalink
    June 20, 2014 10:06 am

    ““the chaplain just hands out lollies.””

    Boiled sweets for the kiddies is a tried and true tactic. But I would have thought they would be more circumspect in the light of recent publicity.

  222. egg permalink
    June 20, 2014 10:14 am

    Yeah splatter, that crossed my mind at the time, but clearly chaplains are oblivious to real world stuff.

    TB drinking alcohol is worse than tobacco because of the collateral damage.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-20/alcohol-to-blame-for-one-in-eight-deaths—report/5102594

  223. Tom R permalink
    June 20, 2014 10:37 am

    alcohol is most probably to blame for at least one in eight births too 😉

  224. Tom R permalink
    June 20, 2014 10:43 am

    I truly hope his doesn’t come to pass. The implications are horrendous

    The Abbott government is pressing ahead with secret trade negotiations aimed at bringing about radical deregulation of Australia’s banking and finance sector, WikiLeaks documents reveal.
    …………..

    Financial Services Union national secretary Leon Carter said there was ”a real danger” that the negotiations ”could undo the effective regulation that sheltered Australia from the global financial crisis” and result in ”a tidal wave of finance job losses in Australia”.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/secret-trade-negotiations-is-this-the-end-of-the-big-four-20140619-3ah39.html#ixzz358SzfWLY

  225. Tom R permalink
    June 20, 2014 10:52 am

    I hope the govermint isn’t lying for once

    THE Abbott government has described reports of secretive trade negotiations that could lead to fundamental deregulation of Australia’s banks as a massive union beat-up.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/secret-trade-deal-story-a-beat-up-robb/story-fn3dxiwe-1226960949698

    It doesn’t look good though

    But Mr Robb wouldn’t confirm whether the leaked document was legitimate.

    But, of course, it’s all Labors fault ROFL

    Mr Robb said the union failed to mention the TiSA negotiations started under Labor.

    He didn’t elaborate on when these particular provisions were made though, nobody has that I have seen.

  226. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 20, 2014 10:56 am

    …the negotiations ”could undo the effective regulation that sheltered Australia from the global financial crisis” and result in ”a tidal wave of finance job losses in Australia”.

    if that doesn’t frighten the shit out of people, nothing will! [except the thought of some non-christan or brown skinned people arriving by boat]

  227. Tom R permalink
    June 20, 2014 11:02 am

    if that doesn’t frighten the shit out of people

    It’s almost time we all started posting under the pseudonym splatterbottom I think AO 😉

  228. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 20, 2014 11:48 am

    The Abbott government is pressing ahead with secret trade negotiations aimed at bringing about radical deregulation of Australia’s banking and finance sector, WikiLeaks documents reveal.

    Pretty soon they’ll declare wiki to be a terrorist organisation. Can’t have us all knowing the shady, treasonous acts performed against their own people, all behind a shroud of secrecy!

  229. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 20, 2014 11:51 am

    chris bowen on news 24 now:

    “generally we don’t comment on wikileaks”

    wouldn’t ever want to give any legitimacy to real whistleblowers who shine the light on government’s treachery!

  230. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 20, 2014 12:03 pm

    Brandis Blocks Public Airing Of Free Speech Submissions:
    https://newmatilda.com/2014/06/20/brandis-blocks-public-airing-free-speech-submissions

    …The Abbott Government has refused to make public any of the 5,000-plus submissions it has received which argue for or against controversial proposed changes to free speech laws.

    The government is even refusing to reveal what percentage of submissions opposed a watering down of racial discrimination protections, and what percentage supported them…

  231. Tom R permalink
    June 20, 2014 12:24 pm

    Brandis Blocks Public Airing Of Free Speech Submissions

    That would be hilarious if it wasn’t so fucking sad.

  232. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 20, 2014 12:37 pm

    AO

    Would you call these people refugees?

    http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-texas-border-chaos-20140614-story.html#page=1

    The Rio Grande Valley has become ground zero for an unprecedented surge in families and unaccompanied children flooding across the Southwest border, creating what the Obama administration is calling a humanitarian crisis as border officials struggle to accommodate new detainees. Largely from Central America, they are now arriving at a rate of more than 35,000 a month.

    Even if they are fact is there is large scale migration from poor countries to wealthy countries.

    Eastern European scientists get paid $1,000/month in their homeland and get $7,000/month here.

    Same would apply for all professions Nurses, dentists etc. And most of the world now learns English as a second language.

  233. TB Queensland permalink
    June 20, 2014 4:02 pm

    Would you call these people refugees?

    What would you call people escaping from this then?

    https://www.google.com.au/search?newwindow=1&hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1593&bih=934&q=mexican+massacre&oq=mexican+massacre&gs_l=img.12..0j0i24l3.2494.12308.0.14754.20.13.2.5.5.0.442.1963.0j2j5j0j1.8.0….0…1ac.1.47.img..5.15.2037.of7tBek8e0I

    Eastern European scientists get paid $1,000/month in their homeland and get $7,000/month here.

    So you keep “informing” us … would you do some research and compare the cost of living in Russia compared to Australia?

    Same would apply for all professions Nurses, dentists etc. And most of the world now learns English as a second language.

    What is the problem with “most of the world … learns English now …”?

  234. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 20, 2014 5:46 pm

    “What would you call people escaping from this then?

    OK you may have a point but i think the article said they were coming from further south than Mexico. I don’t know would you call them refugees? Are the people in the pictures being persecuted for their religious/political beliefs?

    My American friend tells me when Washington DC was having a murder/day it was all drug related. Don’t do drugs and you are safe.

    But the Americans are getting 35,000 of these people/month. I doubt they are all in danger. They are wanting a better lifestyle for their family.

    So you keep “informing” us … would you do some research and compare the cost of living in Russia compared to Australia?”

    Apparently it is even low by Russian standards. They can barely survive. However instead of getting a job in another profession they migrate and swamp the job market.

  235. TB Queensland permalink
    June 20, 2014 6:27 pm

    OK you may have a point but i think the article said they were coming from further south than Mexico.

    Read the link title above … here’s a clue “mexican+massacre” … that was my search question…

    I don’t know would you call them refugees? Are the people in the pictures being persecuted for their religious/political beliefs?

    (gently TB) No, Kneel, they are dead … the refugees are escaping from a society where they could die like that – the reason is irrelevant …

    I doubt they are all in danger. They are wanting a better lifestyle for their family.

    (easy, TB) You don’t know … but the odds are (and especially in their own minds), that they (and particularly their children) are in danger … most people like living near family and friends … but not if they have been massacred …

    Apparently it is even low by Russian standards. They can barely survive. However instead of getting a job in another profession they migrate and swamp the job market.

    I sat here for at least 30 seconds reading that … and all I can say is … I would emigrate too … as my family did …

    (Well done, TB)

  236. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 20, 2014 6:38 pm

    “No, Kneel, they are dead … the refugees are escaping from a society where they could die like that “

    Maybe not. If you are not doing drugs you are most probably safe.

    The people in my article were coming from further south than Mexico. Most are just seeking a better life in a more affluent country. Better health care, better education. So those 35,000 people/month who cross the American border are fleeing for their life?

    “I sat here for at least 30 seconds reading that … and all I can say is … I would emigrate too … as my family did

    We generally don’t do skilled immigration in Australia unless there is a shortage. I find it hard to believe but apparently everybody who comes here on a 457 visa has a skill that cannot be found here.

    And of course your comments shows no compassion for the people born and raised here. There are some professions like PhD research scientists being swamped. Dentists also. But as usual you do not care.

  237. harleyrider1978 permalink
    June 20, 2014 8:57 pm

    seasonally adjusted volume terms

    So you have to go and pull a way to adjust the raw data to suit your needs EHH yet again. This is no different than age adjusting for cancer stats to bring the fact that 500/100,000 lung and bronchus cancers are in the 75-85 year old bracket and make it appear its in younger people at higher rates!

    You people are pathetic with the way you twist statistics to make your lying claims.

  238. harleyrider1978 permalink
    June 20, 2014 9:04 pm

    Judge doesnt accept statistical studies as proof of LC causation!

    It was McTear V Imperial Tobacco. Here is the URL for both my summary and the Judge’s ‘opinion’ (aka ‘decision’):

    (2.14) Prof Sir Richard Doll, Mr Gareth Davies (CEO of ITL). Prof James Friend and
    Prof Gerad Hastings gave oral evidence at a meeting of the Health Committee in
    2000. This event was brought up during the present action as putative evidence that
    ITL had admitted that smoking caused various diseases. Although this section is quite
    long and detailed, I think that we can miss it out. Essentially, for various reasons, Doll
    said that ITL admitted it, but Davies said that ITL had only agreed that smoking might
    cause diseases, but ITL did not know. ITL did not contest the public health messages.
    (2.62) ITL then had the chance to tell the Judge about what it did when the suspicion
    arose of a connection between lung cancer and smoking. Researchers had attempted
    to cause lung cancer in animals from tobacco smoke, without success. It was right,
    therefore, for ITL to ‘withhold judgement’ as to whether or not tobacco smoke caused
    lung cancer.

    [9.10] In any event, the pursuer has failed to prove individual causation.
    Epidemiology cannot be used to establish causation in any individual case, and the
    use of statistics applicable to the general population to determine the likelihood of
    causation in an individual is fallacious. Given that there are possible causes of lung
    cancer other than cigarette smoking, and given that lung cancer can occur in a nonsmoker,
    it is not possible to determine in any individual case whether but for an
    individual’s cigarette smoking he probably would not have contracted lung cancer
    (paras.[6.172] to [6.185]).
    [9.11] In any event there was no lack of reasonable care on the part of ITL at any
    point at which Mr McTear consumed their products, and the pursuer’s negligence
    case fails. There is no breach of a duty of care on the part of a manufacturer, if a
    consumer of the manufacturer’s product is harmed by the product, but the consumer
    knew of the product’s potential for causing harm prior to consumption of it. The
    individual is well enough served if he is given such information as a normally
    intelligent person would include in his assessment of how he wishes to conduct his
    life, thus putting him in the position of making an informed choice (paras.[7.167] to
    [7.181]).

  239. harleyrider1978 permalink
    June 20, 2014 9:05 pm

    Reference Manual on Scientific Evidence: Third Edition

    This sorta says it all

    These limits generally are based on assessments of health risk and calculations of concentrations that are associated with what the regulators believe to be negligibly small risks. The calculations are made after first identifying the total dose of a chemical that is safe (poses a negligible risk) and then determining the concentration of that chemical in the medium of concern that should not be exceeded if exposed individuals (typically those at the high end of media contact) are not to incur a dose greater than the safe one.

    So OSHA standards are what is the guideline for what is acceptable ”SAFE LEVELS”

    OSHA SAFE LEVELS

    All this is in a small sealed room 9×20 and must occur in ONE HOUR.

    For Benzo[a]pyrene, 222,000 cigarettes.

    “For Acetone, 118,000 cigarettes.

    “Toluene would require 50,000 packs of simultaneously smoldering cigarettes.

    Acetaldehyde or Hydrazine, more than 14,000 smokers would need to light up.

    “For Hydroquinone, “only” 1250 cigarettes.

    For arsenic 2 million 500,000 smokers at one time.

    The same number of cigarettes required for the other so called chemicals in shs/ets will have the same outcomes.

    So, OSHA finally makes a statement on shs/ets :

    Field studies of environmental tobacco smoke indicate that under normal conditions, the components in tobacco smoke are diluted below existing Permissible Exposure Levels (PELS.) as referenced in the Air Contaminant Standard (29 CFR 1910.1000)…It would be very rare to find a workplace with so much smoking that any individual PEL would be exceeded.” -Letter From Greg Watchman, Acting Sec’y, OSHA.

    Why are their any smoking bans at all they have absolutely no validity to the courts or to science!

  240. harleyrider1978 permalink
    June 20, 2014 9:06 pm

    World Atlas: More People Smoking Cigarettes than Ever

    There are more people smoking now than ever before, despite health warnings and the rising price of cigarettes. In 1980, 4,453 billion cigarettes went up in smoke, which increased to 6,319 billion in 2010. By 2020, you can expect to find nearly seven billion cigarette ends littering the world.

    Top of the charts in terms of nicotine addiction are Asia and Australia, which is where 57 percent of cigarettes are smoked today.

    These alarming statistics are among many of the intriguing facts laid bare in the ninth edition of Dan Smith’s The State of the World Atlas.

    Elsewhere, the book reports that 19 percent of Americans say they could not feed their families in 2011, despite living in one of the world’s richest countries. Meanwhile, 20 percent of India’s population remains undernourished, despite its Gross National Income rising by 450 percent since 1990.

    An even more shocking revelation is that 2.5 billion people live on less than £1.25 a day, which represents one in three of the global population.

  241. harleyrider1978 permalink
    June 20, 2014 9:06 pm

    If you’re afraid of second-hand smoke, you should also avoid cars, restaurants…and don’t even think of barbecuing.

    here are just some of the chemicals present in tobacco smoke and what else contains them:

    Arsenic, Benzine, Formaldehyde.

    Arsenic- 8 glasses of water = 200 cigarettes worth of arsenic

    Benzine- Grilling of one burger = 250 cigarettes

    Formaldehyde – cooking a vegetarian meal = 100 cigarettes

    When you drink your 8 glasses of tap water (64 ounces) a day, you’re safely drinking up to 18,000 ng of arsenic by government safety standards of 10 nanograms/gram (10 ng/gm = 18,000ng/64oz) for daily consumption.

    Am I “poisoning” you with the arsenic from my cigarette smoke? Actually, with the average cigarette putting out 32 ng of arsenic into the air which is then diluted by normal room ventilation for an individual exposure of .032 ng/hour, you would have to hang out in a smoky bar for literally 660,000 hours every day (yeah, a bit hard, right?) to get the same dose of arsenic that the government tells you is safe to drink.

    So you can see why claims that smokers are “poisoning” people are simply silly.

    You can stay at home all day long if you don’t want all those “deadly” chemicals around you, but in fact, those alleged 4000-7000 theorized chemicals in cigarettes are present in many foods, paints etc. in much larger quantities. And as they are present in cigarettes in very small doses, they are harmless. Sorry, no matter how much you like the notion of harmful ETS, it’s a myth.

  242. harleyrider1978 permalink
    June 20, 2014 9:07 pm

    This pretty well destroys the Myth of second hand smoke:

    Lungs from pack-a-day smokers safe for transplant, study finds.

    By JoNel Aleccia, Staff Writer, NBC News.

    Using lung transplants from heavy smokers may sound like a cruel joke, but a new study finds that organs taken from people who puffed a pack a day for more than 20 years are likely safe.

    What’s more, the analysis of lung transplant data from the U.S. between 2005 and 2011 confirms what transplant experts say they already know: For some patients on a crowded organ waiting list, lungs from smokers are better than none.

    “I think people are grateful just to have a shot at getting lungs,” said Dr. Sharven Taghavi, a cardiovascular surgical resident at Temple University Hospital in Philadelphia, who led the new study………………………

    Ive done the math here and this is how it works out with second ahnd smoke and people inhaling it!

    The 16 cities study conducted by the U.S. DEPT OF ENERGY and later by Oakridge National laboratories discovered:

    Cigarette smoke, bartenders annual exposure to smoke rises, at most, to the equivalent of 6 cigarettes/year.

    146,000 CIGARETTES SMOKED IN 20 YEARS AT 1 PACK A DAY.

    A bartender would have to work in second hand smoke for 2433 years to get an equivalent dose.

    Then the average non-smoker in a ventilated restaurant for an hour would have to go back and forth each day for 119,000 years to get an equivalent 20 years of smoking a pack a day! Pretty well impossible ehh!

  243. TB Queensland permalink
    June 20, 2014 9:50 pm

    The people in my article were coming from further south than Mexico.

    Where? Precisely?

    We generally don’t do skilled immigration in Australia unless there is a shortage.

    What BS …

    And of course your comments shows no compassion for the people born and raised here.

    You have more rights than immigrants?

    So, citizenship means nothing to you … are you an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander?

  244. TB Queensland permalink
    June 20, 2014 10:03 pm

    hr1978 … mmmm … sounds like the tobacco mob has seen this thread and tried to play silly buggers …

    Good luck with your emphysema, hr1978, my old man survived till he was 79 … took a long, painful, time (years) for the poor old sod to die though …

    And if you like to smoke – don’t visit Oz … for your own good … strict regs … stay in the land of the free … and fucked …

    … oh, and BTW you’ll have to wear an approved helmet if you want to play on your two wheeled VW … 🙂

  245. June 20, 2014 10:13 pm

    Mexican experts, US immigration specialists informed by John Wayne movies and fish & chip wrappers….

    Jeeze Harley loves his smokes.. must be trolling for a free packet of winnies..someone should throw him a nicorette, he seems a big uppity 🙄

    I heard this is what Bat does.. free carton Martin to the most deludedly obnoxious Nicojunkie
    Heres one for the big butch bear on the Harley…
    “The things one does for the things one believes in”

    Think Norman got it right…

  246. June 20, 2014 10:15 pm

    TB My old man dropped dead @ 57.. had he not smoked since he was 12 he’d still be alive.. BAT stuge I recon

  247. harleyrider1978 permalink
    June 20, 2014 11:15 pm

    Such communal love we have here today………………..To bad you guys cant back up your statements with death certificates stating cause of death smoking!

  248. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 20, 2014 11:58 pm

    Where? Precisely?

    From my link

    The number of children and teenagers traveling alone from Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador is expected to reach up to 90,000 across the Southwest border by the end of the year,

    The USA is getting 35,000 illegal economic immigrants/month. Most of those are fleeing for a better life.

    You have more rights than immigrants?

    We could get the best cricket and soccer team in the world by flying in highly trained and skilled players from around the world. But i would find it hard to support such a team. I never liked it when half the English cricket team was from South Africa.

    You are speaking from total ignorance. You have no idea what is going on in some professions. We are training people for years to get a profession and then the jobs go to flyins from Eastern Europe.

  249. June 21, 2014 12:33 am

    Such communal love we have here today………………..To bad harmless. You know not one person ever died from heroin, alcohol, electrocution or a gun either.

    What do you say guys?

    Sweal you fucking dropkick, 1/3 of America is illegal thats how their economy and society works. I suggest you fucking go there before you start giving us your expert opinion. I worked there without a permit… everyone does. you guys cant back up your statements with death certificates stating cause of death smoking!

    No we must be clearly wrong and smoking is just peachy and

  250. Tom R permalink
    June 21, 2014 7:38 am

    Wow, someone was going through some kind of withdrawal last night.

    Quitting is for Quitters! ❓

  251. June 21, 2014 3:30 pm

    seems we have attracted a wisconsin wanker from the 1970`s,

    just what we need, another denying teabag

  252. June 22, 2014 1:36 pm

    Yeah between this paid Big backy, dick smoking, fucktard, two wheeled Nazi Vdub driving teabagger troll and Squeals complete inability to stay remotely on topic, it goes to show how stupid these narrow pointy fucktard sycophant trolls are.

  253. Tom R permalink
    June 22, 2014 3:14 pm

    Is the oz obsessed, or just stoopid?

    The Ergas article is full of shrill unsubstantiated opinion. There are at least half a dozen unsubstantiated quotes and nowhere does Ergas refer to the data on the consumption of tobacco. He quotes from a TV series, Mad Men, to give an example of brand loyalty. Without a hint of substance, Ergas makes the claim that plain packaging “may actually boost consumption”. Up might be down if you say it often enough but this Harvard lecturer would have more success putting a spirit level of the floor and say ‘look, the earth is flat’.

    http://thekouk.com/blog/the-australian-sinks-to-a-new-low-on-tobacco.html#.U6Y4yUDpASR

  254. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    June 22, 2014 4:07 pm

    Harley has plenty to say. It’s all quite uninteresting.

    I don’t know whether passive smoking will harm my health, but Harley needs to get over it. I find having to inhale someone’s second hand smoke repulsive and annoying.

    Smokers impose this on non smokers without compunction. The outdoor section of cafes sued to be for people to enjoy sun and fresh air. These days the outdoor area is for the gasping smokers.

    BAN THEM!!

  255. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 22, 2014 4:20 pm

    It seems to me that all ALP supporters care about is that one of their policies may have worked.

    ALP supporters do not care about saving the lives of people. They only care that of six years of failed policies one policy may have worked.

    Their loyalty is to the ALP. Human beings ranked much lower.

  256. TB Queensland permalink
    June 22, 2014 6:09 pm

    ALP supporters do not care about saving the lives of people … Their loyalty is to the ALP. Human beings ranked much lower.

    Yeah, we’re just mad about plain cigarette packs …

    Smoking tobacco is recognised as one of the largest preventable causes of death and disease in Australia. Each year, smoking kills an estimated 15,000 Australians1 and costs Australia $31.5 billion in social (including health) and economic costs.

    Stupid is as ideology does …

  257. Tom R permalink
    June 23, 2014 9:32 am

    It seems to me that all ALP supporters care about is that one of their policies may have worked.

    Try reading my comments before posting the stoopidities nil.

    Meanwhile, more highlighting of how the oz LIED (which this is about, not Labor per se)

    We now know how the Oz misread the statistics on sales and consumption and failed to relate that to the rise in tobacco excise at the end of December. As usual when excises rise, retailers order more of a product (beer is another example) to build up stocks of the lower taxed product. Tobacco was no different.

    http://michaelpascoe.com.au/?p=191

  258. Tom R permalink
    June 23, 2014 12:02 pm

    Even MORE data proving the oz is LYING

    ”It’s worth noting that in publishing the Treasury data the Health Department said it was an indicator of tobacco volumes in the Australian market. It was a gentle guide to those who need guide dogs and white sticks that these are the most relevant figures,” he said.

    The whole debate is dishonest. We’ve always said that the main focus of plain packaging is long term.” There will be further declines when tobacco excise jumps by 12.5 per cent in December and by 12.5 per cent in December 2015 and 2016. As well, there are six-monthly indexation increases that move in line with average weekly earnings, not the consumer price index.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/plain-packaging-pushes-cigarette-sales-down-20140622-3amd8.html#ixzz35QKhdyWh

  259. TB Queensland permalink
    June 23, 2014 12:08 pm

    TR, just heard the above being discussed by an economist on 4BC (the local Liberal Party mouthpiece) had a giggle as I heard him explain …

  260. TB Queensland permalink
    June 23, 2014 12:13 pm

    It’s worth noting that in publishing the Treasury data the Health Department said it was an indicator of tobacco volumes in the Australian market.

    Do you get the impression that Treasury just might be a bit pissed off fed up with this government … ? (rhetorical of course)

  261. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 23, 2014 12:20 pm

    I find having to inhale someone’s second hand smoke repulsive and annoying.
    Smokers impose this on non smokers without compunction. The outdoor section of cafes sued to be for people to enjoy sun and fresh air. These days the outdoor area is for the gasping smokers.

    and when they come inside, phew, they really stink, no amount of breath mints will stop that. Third hand smoke clings to clothing, hair, furniture and soft furnishings affecting babies and kids of smokers, even if they do the right thing and go outside to smoke.

  262. Tom R permalink
    June 23, 2014 12:22 pm

    Do you get the impression that Treasury just might be a bit pissed off fed up with this government … ?

    Maybe they are just pissed off that paid for “data” is used instead of the real thing?

  263. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 23, 2014 12:25 pm

  264. June 23, 2014 3:19 pm

    Cough cough…

    An update for the fkn morons who argue that plain packs haven’t worked, or that the Australian’s article was correct, or that the Kouk was wrong, or whatever fkn half-arsed barrow you were pushing…..

    Treasury settles the argument and humiliates The Aus: the number of cigarettes sold in Australia FELL last year.

    http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/plain-packaging-pushes-cigarette-sales-down-20140622-3amd8.html

  265. TB Queensland permalink
    June 23, 2014 3:22 pm

    Treasury settles the argument and humiliates The Aus: the number of cigarettes sold in Australia FELL last year.

    But, but the original stats proved that anyway?

    🙂

  266. June 23, 2014 3:41 pm

    Squeal can’t discuss anything without taking the high moral ground? I think the poor thing has some type of superiority complex…

    No credit to Nicola for one of the great political legacies in the world in taking on and defeating big backy.. just some type of twisted hatred .. Sad case indeed.

    Ask yourself this, Would the Coalition have the political plumbs to pull this off?
    I think not.

  267. June 23, 2014 3:43 pm

    with teh-oz lending its arse (and whats left of it credibility) to big-tobacco,

    the silver-lining is they will have chased away a few more of its dwindling viewers 🙂 #teabags

  268. June 23, 2014 3:55 pm

    ”””””””No credit to Nicola for one of the great political legacies in the world in taking on and defeating big backy”””””””

    this is over-blown/wishful ricky, increased-tax/packaging is a`soft` attack at best, for nanny-roxon to have been `great`, she needed to `outlaw` at least `some` of the hundreds of toxic chemicals big-tobacco put in the damn smokes,

    l some-what doubt the packaging angle, as there is tax-increases too, which hide/blur the ability to `measure` any `packaging-effect`,

    what l do know is,
    + increasing tax, increases black-market, which there is NO `measure`
    + less than 1% of shipping containers is `intensively` inspected,
    + depending on port, and time, only between `about` 3% and 6% of containers are even `scanned`/x-ray/dog-sniffed

  269. TB Queensland permalink
    June 23, 2014 4:29 pm

    Reheat alright …

  270. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 23, 2014 4:46 pm

    “No credit to Nicola for one of the great political legacies in the world in taking on and defeating big backy.. just some type of twisted hatred .. Sad case indeed.

    No I give credit to Roxon. She was a very brave women for what she did. The Coalition would have never done something like that. I give lots of praise to Nicola.

    But my opinion is that most Labor govt policies no matter how well meaning do not work.

    Furthermore Labor supporters i suspect do not care about saving lives from smoking. For them they may have found one Labor policy amongst a humongous lot of total failures may have worked.

    But all praise to Nicola for a very brave stand. I hope what she has done works.

  271. June 23, 2014 4:48 pm

    Overblown? What? Yeah right… the single most heralded measure against big tobacco is overblown? Dont you think you are missing the point?

    There is no doubt whatsoever that removing the slick marketing associated with the fashion of smoking will religate it to being less chic. You are not paying attention… its not about today’s smokers its about a new generation that will be harder to pitch too with no Audrey Hepburn Marlborough man chic.

    Every measure is good, fuck if they argue the toss.

  272. June 23, 2014 4:50 pm

    its a strange day in teabag`land when ricky is being defended by kneel 🙂

  273. June 23, 2014 4:53 pm

    Squeal I went to a Fiberal Fundraiser run by BAT so you are deluding yourself if you think they would done the same thing.. It just was not on their agenda. This measure was unanimously supported in Caucus.. unlike the executives in BAT that are all members of the fiberal party Pal…

    Furthermore you are an offensive fuckwit..my father died from smoking you obnoxious cunt., so just fuck off.

  274. June 23, 2014 4:55 pm

    Defended with a backhanded dig .. just cant help himself.. 🙄

  275. June 23, 2014 5:01 pm

    seems like you`re missing my point/s ricky, (doing the dumpty standard)

    by what you`re saying/objecting-to,

    next month they could put another $30 tax-per-pack on smokes, and `numbers`fall,

    you/ricky would say, `packaging`is working,

    l would suggest, more `transfered` to `black-product`,

    (l notice you ran from the `toxins` part too ricky) — 🙂

  276. egg permalink
    June 23, 2014 5:02 pm

    ‘the number of cigarettes sold in Australia FELL last year.’

    Except for off the books black market.

  277. June 23, 2014 5:08 pm

    abc1 news, melb man has died today when `wall` collapsed on him

  278. June 23, 2014 5:12 pm

    ”””’Except for off the books black market.”””’

    wow! so you`re not denying reality on this one dumpty.?

  279. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 23, 2014 5:14 pm

    “Furthermore you are an offensive fuckwit..my father died from smoking you obnoxious cunt., so just fuck off.

    So i am now responsible for your fathers death?? The only obnoxious person is you.

    I give praise to Roxon for her very brave effort. I said this is something the Coalition would never do.

    But you are right i did give a backhanded comment. Most Labor policies do not work. Furthermore they do damage to the lives of people. This is a true comment.

    But even though i did give a backhanded comment i give praise to Roxon. Nobody in the Coalition would have done what she did.

  280. egg permalink
    June 23, 2014 5:23 pm

    ‘wow! so you`re not denying reality on this one dumpty.?’

    A container load undetected would be quite lucrative. Cheap ciggies can be bought in the Haymarket, apparently, under the counter and off the books.

  281. June 23, 2014 5:50 pm

    Squeal just fuck off seriously. You are incapable of anything remotely partisan.. you are a fucking wingnut.

    exhibit A

    Furthermore Labor supporters i suspect do not care about saving lives from smoking. For them they may have found one Labor policy amongst a humongous lot of total failures may have worked.

    Do you know how fucking offensive that is to someone who’s father has died from smoking .. guess not 🙄

    So I’m immoral , obnoxious? what else you got wingnut? Seriously if you have nothing to say on a topic other than how you think people who vote labor are immoral just fuck off.

  282. June 23, 2014 5:57 pm

    ””’Cheap ciggies can be bought in the Haymarket, apparently””’

    l guess that`ll keep nsw-plod busy for `about` ever,

    (better not look in cabramatta) — 🙂

  283. June 23, 2014 6:06 pm

    Seems to me that it’s a bit of a stretch to claim a link between the introduction of plain packs with an anecdotal increase in consumption of black market fags.

    Surely, if an increase in black market cigarette sales is occurring, that would purely be a price driven mechanism, rather than a result of plain packs…?

    It’s the tobacco industry that’s arguing that plain packs have led to an increase in black market sales and that argument just sounds like the typical outright lies and bullshit we’ve come to expect from them.

  284. June 23, 2014 6:07 pm

    yeah ricky, my dad also died of cancer (non-smoker) and he was halfadozen years younger than yours, but l aint gonna nail my flag to nanny-roxons `mild` ideas,

    you can, if you wish, but there is a `deluge` of chemicals dumped on the unwary population, and also dna-damaging toxins that also need to be rectified, and getting all shouty about the `soft-and-mild` attempted-fixes, also detracts from greater problems,

    eg. did you know there are `hills` of asbestos that are now exposed and distributing asbestos on the wind.? notice that there is little-to-no noise being made about it.?

  285. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 23, 2014 6:15 pm

    “Do you know how fucking offensive that is to someone who’s father has died from smoking .. guess not :roll:”

    Yes i did know how offensive my comments could be.

    I give praise to what Roxan did.

    She did something the Coalition would never do. She also did something i would be too cowardly to do myself.

    I hope what she did works.

  286. June 23, 2014 6:21 pm

    ”””””””an increase in black market cigarette sales is occurring, that would purely be a price driven mechanism, rather than a result of plain packs…?””””””#agree_price-driven

    .

    ”””””the tobacco industry that’s arguing that plain packs have led to an increase in black market sales and that argument just sounds like the typical outright lies and bullshit we’ve come to expect from them.”””””””#agree_big-tobacco-bullshits

    .

    for me reb its not anecdotal, but observation,
    if you `omni-search`the blog-comments (under the bonnet), l`m pretty certain l was debating TB and reported the`colorful` packs l come across on my walks, this was well before any clap-trap coming out of teabag-media

  287. TB Queensland permalink
    June 23, 2014 6:33 pm

    its a strange day in teabag`land when ricky is being defended by kneel

    More acknowledgement than “defence”, methinks, Tbag … noice to see Kneel in a positive mood … pity about this bit tho’ … Furthermore Labor supporters i suspect do not care about saving lives from smoking … … that was actually the whole point of the exercise …

    So i am now responsible for your fathers death?? The only obnoxious person is you.

    Objects to responsibility for one death (respect RP) but blames others here for hundreds … ironic … my father also died from smoking …

    my dad also died of cancer (non-smoker) … but l aint gonna nail my flag to nanny-roxons `mild` ideas,

    Well I am … emphysema is only related to cigarette smoking unless you have an extremely rare genetic disorder …

    ———————————————————————————-

    eg. did you know there are `hills` of asbestos that are now exposed

    And now you’ve shifted off topic … ’tis another genre of Robber Barons … fight one battle at a time … **

    An odd fact is that many people who worked in asbestos related jobs smoked heavily … and that includes me (until I turned 30) … as a motor mech. (civil & ADF) I was exposed to more than my share of asbestos!

    ** I was employed by JH as a OH&S Manager in the early 90’s …

  288. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 23, 2014 6:43 pm

    TB

    I started to read your comment but it was too long and confusing so i gave up.

  289. June 23, 2014 6:45 pm

    ”””””eg. did you know there are `hills` of asbestos that are now exposed
    And now you’ve shifted off topic … ’tis another genre of Robber Barons”””””’

    #get stuffed 🙂 Nah, not really, my bad, l forgot to include bowel-cancer,

    note, l wasn`t trying to switch arguments/topics, it is just that `any`, (ie_`if`_any) testing is done on the effects of chemicals on people/animals, it is done one by one in a `sterile` environment, which is totally different to the real world, where we get hit with multiple combinations of chemicals and genetically modified crap,

    and the amount of testing done on `combinations` is ZERO

  290. egg permalink
    June 23, 2014 6:47 pm

    ‘rather than a result of plain packs…?’

    Its just a generality, nanny Roxon put in place a steep tax which should theoretically stop poor people from smoking. But no, the lower classes are in touch with the underworld and will seek out their drug of choice at the most affordable price.

  291. June 23, 2014 6:49 pm

    ”””I started to read your comment but it was too long and confusing so i gave up.”””

    thats all right kneel, its just TB`s way of saying he loves mr-rabbit

  292. June 23, 2014 6:52 pm

    I see that egg blissfully ignores the research I posted recently that confirms that price is a key determining factor in driving people to quit smoking….

    #nosuprisesthere #sameoldshitfromthesameoldfuckwits

  293. TB Queensland permalink
    June 23, 2014 7:05 pm

    thats all right kneel, its just TB`s way of saying he loves mr-rabbit

    LOL! And everything is confusing to the kits …

    I see that egg blissfully ignores …

    Obnoxiously obfuscating the real issue as usual …

  294. June 23, 2014 7:13 pm

    “Obnoxiously obfuscating the real issue as usual …”

    Exactly TB.

  295. egg permalink
    June 23, 2014 7:13 pm

    ‘Obnoxiously obfuscating the real issue as usual …’

    Children will be deterred by the horrible packaging and high price, but the determined addict will not be easily put off.

  296. June 23, 2014 7:21 pm

    Obnoxiously obfuscating the real issue as usual …

    🙄

  297. June 23, 2014 7:22 pm

    Not enough? well any sane person knows of the carcinogens in smokes. If they were up for approval consideration now . it would be a laughable matter. I just don’t see how Nicola’s measures are anything but good, short of a full ban they are a significant measure, a small win but a win no less.

    Its one measure, this obsession if it works in isolation is just ridiculous, obviously its hurting Big Backy otherwise they would not but front page of the Oz which has backfired.. Who cares.. hit em all at once this Nanny state chant is fucking stupid too. Smokers will only give up when they are good and ready, making it cool and chic got many people hooked in the past, if you remove that factor and its a start.

  298. egg permalink
    June 23, 2014 7:39 pm

    Alright, plain packaging has been a stunning success, so let’s fast forward six years.

    Your favourite drop has a bloated liver on the label and the price is three times higher than now. It might deter young people, but would seasoned drinkers be persuaded to stop?

  299. TB Queensland permalink
    June 23, 2014 7:54 pm

    Nicola’s measures are anything but good, short of a full ban …

    And we all know what that leads to … yes, tbag, I said BAN ’em all … but I am aware of the consequences of prohibition …

    But I agree … Nicola’s measures are all good, short of a full ban … (RP edited after I read it) …

    Smoking affects us all and especially children … we managed to ban asbestos (despite JH) … if it was banned it would drive it underground but it wouldn’t be hard to fkn detect!

    The stink of second hand smoke gets right up my fkn nose! And I can’t see a whole lot of Wheezeeasys … being established …

    For the uneducated amongst us …

    (Speakeasy – the speakeasy culture of illegal drinking dens set-up during America’s prohibition era of the 1920s and early 1930s)

    It might deter young people, but would seasoned drinkers be persuaded to stop?

    Who fkn cares as long as it stops the spiral!

    Still missing the point!

    If it deters young people that’s what we want!

    But The Robber Barons only think about stuffing their gobs with $$$$ notes … fuck society at the expense of the economy!

  300. TB Queensland permalink
    June 23, 2014 7:56 pm

    This mine – certainly not egg’s …

    “Who fkn cares as long as it stops the spiral!

    Still missing the point!

    If it deters young people that’s what we want!

    But The Robber Barons only think about stuffing their gobs with $$$$ notes … fuck society at the expense of the economy!”

  301. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 23, 2014 8:07 pm

    TB

    Too long and stupid.

  302. June 23, 2014 8:11 pm

    l look forward to a black market krusty-burger and kentucky-duck after a failed `fat-arse` packaging regime finally dies #teabags

  303. TB Queensland permalink
    June 23, 2014 8:12 pm

    Too wise and smart … 😉

  304. June 23, 2014 8:31 pm

    ””yes, tbag, I said BAN ‘em all … but I am aware of the consequences of prohibition””

    ””Too wise and smart … ;)””

    well ya`not really showing it today TB, the `problem` with `ban` is it becomes illegal, and we then have the plods chucking people in the gulag for having a pack of smokes and making criminals out of them for merely `smoking` (much like locking up hiipies with a joint of choof) while `real` crime then gets shoved to the back-burner, FYI, it costs `about` $100K, per-prisoner, per-year,

    money$ well spent.?

  305. TB Queensland permalink
    June 23, 2014 8:38 pm

    … well ya`not really showing it today TB …

    Only because you don’t agree? FMD!

    I’ll try driving on the right side of road tomorrow …

    … smoking is dangerous … try disposing asbestos/cement sheeting without a permit … you won’t go to jail but you’ll cop a hefty fine …

    Methinks you protest too much … I sense a hidden agenda …

  306. June 23, 2014 8:57 pm

    well TB, the 40-year `war-on-drugs` has been a total failure, and l can`t see any possibility of it being successful ever, placing smokes in the same `category` (which is what `banning` them is) won`t be successful either,

    all that would happen, is 100% of smoke-sales would be on the black-market, as is `ice`, heroine, choof, cocaine,

    l also can`t see Govts giving-up their addiction to smoke-tax either, this is the addiction that can`t be cured,

    to obtain enough funding for full, 100%, `intensive` port inspections, and running courts, police and gulags for those `law-breakers`, we won`t have `any` education or medical budgets, the grand-scale financially, to actually enforce `any` type of prohibition makes it unworkable, whether you look at `war-on-drugs` of alfonse-capone

  307. egg permalink
    June 24, 2014 7:49 am

    I’m with bagz on this.

  308. Smoke 'em permalink
    June 24, 2014 8:03 am

    So am I.

  309. Tom R permalink
    June 24, 2014 8:14 am

    Obnoxiously obfuscating the real issue as usual …

    Which is what has been done from the start. The oz began it with their lying proclamation about consumption (since proven wrong on many occasions), and how this had measured the success of plain packaging. The core aim of which, was not to make existing smokers stop, but to prevent people from taking it up in the first place. I have not seen any data that measures this as yet? I do recall not long ago hearing a story that there had been a steep rise in smoking for young girls, but I do not recall the context or timing of the story?

    But, we still have defendants of the oz claiming that anyone attacking the oz for lying is trying to claim that plain packaging works, when in fact all we are doing is stating that the oz lied again. Much of the evidence points to plain packaging being helpful in reducing consumption, but no direct line can be drawn. The also claimed that nobody has shown that the figures the oz used specifically to measure the number of sticks sold are wrong, which is irrelevant, as they claimed that this dodgy number was used to indicate that consumption was rising, which all other data showed it wasn’t, but it is also found out that we cannot, as the data won’t be released.

    And yet, with all of the evidence showing the opposite, the oz doesn’t do what journalists do, and admit that perhaps they were wrong, they instead dig their hole deeper, and continue to lie to their readers. I haven’t seen the article, too depressing wading through their site to try and find it. But, unless it is a retraction of their initial one, then it is only re-enforcing the initial lie

  310. Tom R permalink
    June 24, 2014 8:16 am

    So am I.

    I AGREE!

    and egg, how much alcohol can be taken in measures that won’t affect your health detrimentally, and how much tobacco can be smoked that will do the same?

  311. June 24, 2014 8:38 am

    “The oz began it with their lying proclamation about consumption (since proven wrong on many occasions)”

    Nobody has proven wrong that the number of sticks consumed has increased, which is what the Australian said. But I repeat myself.

  312. Tom R permalink
    June 24, 2014 9:05 am

    Nobody has proven wrong that the number of sticks consumed has increased

    That isn’t what the claim was though tosy, their claim was sticks sold, not sticks consumed, a pedantic differentiation perhaps , but an important differentiation nonetheless. The oz also directly claimed that consumption was up because of their figures, which has also been shown to be wrong

    http://www.thekouk.com/blog/the-abs-confirms-tobacco-consumption-is-falling.html#.U6iw37HMoik

    But if you meant to say “Nobody has proven wrong that the number of sticks SOLD has increased” then I would agree but, as has been shown by ALL the other data and explained just why this might be the case, the data, even if correct, is largely worthless to the larger debate overall.

  313. Tom R permalink
    June 24, 2014 9:15 am

    Although, this article seems to blow the whole “sales” out of the water?

    The federal Treasury has entered the debate over cigarette sales, publishing previously secret information that shows sales falling since the introduction of graphic health warnings and plain packaging.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/plain-packaging-pushes-cigarette-sales-down-20140622-3amd8.html#ixzz35VUZEwBI

    https://theguttertrash.com/2014/06/17/new-data-confirms-the-australian-lied-about-tobacco-consumption/#comment-62974

  314. egg permalink
    June 24, 2014 9:24 am

    ‘how much alcohol can be taken in measures that won’t affect your health detrimentally, and how much tobacco can be smoked that will do the same?’

    It depends, technically speaking they are both injurious to health. The difference is that alcohol has collateral damage attached, whereas smokers are only a pariah group of fringe dwellers and generally harmless.

  315. Walrus permalink
    June 24, 2014 9:25 am

    “………that confirms that price is a key determining factor in driving people to quit smoking….””

    Price Elasticity of Demand is a pretty big stick to wield. Increasing the Excise / Prohibiting Incoming Tourists/Residents from buying anything more than 2 packets at Duty Free/Plain Packaging/Even more Smoke Free areas i.e. Melbourne and certain parts of Sydney/a drift to the blackmarket all contribute to falls in recorded smoking levels.

    When they all occur at the same time its impossible to say that any one measure was successful.

    However we know increasing the excise has worked over a number of years.

    The Kouk was and still is talking out his arse implying packaging caused the fall

  316. Sticks and Stones permalink
    June 24, 2014 9:29 am

    “That isn’t what the claim was though tosy, their claim was sticks sold, not sticks consumed, a pedantic differentiation perhaps , but an important differentiation nonetheless”

    My mistake, the Oz claimed an increase in sticks sold. My point remains. Nobody has proven wrong that the number of sticks consumed sold has increased.

  317. Price Signal permalink
    June 24, 2014 9:35 am

    Terry McCrann: It’s price not packaging affecting cigarette sales

  318. June 24, 2014 9:42 am

    “Nobody has proven wrong that the number of sticks consumed sold has increased.”

    Or perhaps they have…

    “The ABS data has consumption of tobacco the lowest ever recorded. Both measures conflict with industry claims that tobacco sales climbed by 59 million sticks or roll-your-own equivalents last year.”

    “Treasury data shows 3.4 per cent fewer cigarettes were sold last year than 2012.The Treasury data is consistent with national accounts data that shows a decline of 0.9 per cent in the amount of tobacco and cigarettes sold between 2012 and last year.”

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/plain-packaging-pushes-cigarette-sales-down-20140622-3amd8.html#ixzz35VbzIFeM

    But then, that’s just what Treasury and the ABS are saying, surely the Tobacco companies’ survey produced exclusively for the Australian must be more reliable…….

    *dripping with sarcasm alert.

  319. egg permalink
    June 24, 2014 9:45 am

    ‘However we know increasing the excise has worked over a number of years.’

    Yep.

  320. June 24, 2014 9:46 am

    “This bizarre and gormless campaign has been couched as proof that a push by the ”nanny state” against smoking has backfired. What it is fundamentally about is the tobacco companies’ desire to prevent the spread of plain packaging. A growing number of nations are considering following Australia’s example, and tobacco companies have been campaigning against the policy for years.”

    “The anti-nanny state ideologues are pushing disingenuous nonsense. They argue plain packaging drives down prices and thus fuels demand. Were that so, the answer is not to reverse the policy, but to increase the excise on cigarettes, thereby strengthening the highly effective policy melange of pricing, packaging and education.”

    “There is a glaring absurdity in big tobacco’s argument. Were the policy the failure suggested by big tobacco and its witless apologists in the media, why would the industry be spending so much time and money opposing the measure?”

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/comment/the-age-editorial/plain-packaging-helps-decline-in-smoking-20140623-3ap3k.html#ixzz35Vdm44i5

  321. Tom R permalink
    June 24, 2014 9:57 am

    It depends, technically speaking they are both injurious to health.

    Again, that is not what I said. alcohol, in small amounts, can have no deleterious effect to your health (in fact, some claim that small amounts can beg good for your health), smoking is bad in no matter how small an amount, even second hand smoke.

    https://theguttertrash.com/2014/06/17/new-data-confirms-the-australian-lied-about-tobacco-consumption/#comment-63091

    It’s about the third time that has been put up now reb 😉

    Nobody has proven wrong that the number of sticks consumed sold has increased.

    See above 😉

    Mind you, that is not the core of what was wrong with the oz. It was their statement that this meant consumption was up, and that this proved that plain packaging had failed. Both of which are WRONG. And which has been highlighted to them, and which they refuse to correct.

    In essence, they continue to LIE!

  322. June 24, 2014 10:03 am

    “In essence, they continue to LIE!”

    Yep. And that link from ToSY to the “article” rant from Terry McCrann is comedy gold…

    Talk about unhinged… And how courageous of the Herald to come out swinging behind the Oz.. LULZ…

  323. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    June 24, 2014 10:07 am

    I see that nice young woman, Johdi Meares, was smoking in a restaurant and some intolerant types objected. Then Johdi got very p***ed and drove her car into some other cars, while her licence was suspended for driving while very full.

    The conclusions that can be reasonably drawn-
    • Non smokers shouldn’t upset heavy drinking smokers by complaining about smoking
    • Perhaps there’s a place for taxpayer subsidised chauffers for swimsuit models, and
    • Rich people in Bellevue Hill should park such that they don’t get in the way of drunk swimsuit models careering down the road

  324. Tom R permalink
    June 24, 2014 10:11 am

    There is a glaring absurdity in big tobacco’s argument. Were the policy the failure suggested by big tobacco and its witless apologists in the media, why would the industry be spending so much time and money opposing the measure?

    This newspaper prefers to use authoritative, independent figures rather than self-serving, unsubstantiated data supplied by tobacco companies. So, here are the facts and figures provided by the Commonwealth Treasury and the Australian Bureau of Statistics. Treasury’s’s data shows that 3.4 per cent fewer cigarettes were sold in 2013, the first year of plain packaging. When Treasury’s figures are adjusted for population growth, they show a fall of 5 per cent in the number of cigarettes sold per per person in 2013.

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/comment/the-age-editorial/plain-packaging-helps-decline-in-smoking-20140623-3ap3k.html#ixzz35VjFJVl5

  325. Tom R permalink
    June 24, 2014 10:22 am

    Just looked at the McCrann drivel. He’s so wrong form the start

    It all started with an article by Christian Kerr in our stablemate The Australian, detailing analysis that suggested the Gillard government’s plain packaging legislation had failed in its intended purpose — to reduce smoking.

    For starters, it didn’t “suggest”, it declared, unequivocally, that it had had failed. It also claims it’s intended purpose was to reduce smoking, but that is only true in the long term, in conjunction with other efforts, it’s intended purpose was to “reduce the attractiveness and appeal of tobacco products to consumers”.

    The rationale for plain packaging
    This Bill will prevent tobacco advertising and promotion on tobacco products and
    tobacco product packaging in order to:
    · reduce the attractiveness and appeal of tobacco products to consumers,
    particularly young people;
    · increase the noticeability and effectiveness of mandated health warnings;
    · reduce the ability of the tobacco product and its packaging to mislead
    consumers about the harms of smoking; and
    · through the achievement of these aims in the long term, as part of a
    comprehensive suite of tobacco control measures, contribute to efforts to
    reduce smoking rates.

    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/bill_em/tppb2011190/memo_0.html

  326. Indicators on permalink
    June 24, 2014 10:25 am

    “It’s about the third time that has been put up now reb”

    “Added to the Health Department’s website quietly last week amid debate over the effectiveness of plain packaging, the Treasury data shows 3.4 per cent fewer cigarettes were sold last year than 2012.”

    No, it doesn’t.

    “The Commonwealth Treasury has further advised that tobacco clearances (including excise and customs duty) fell by 3.4% in 2013 relative to 2012 when tobacco plain packaging was introduced. Clearances are an indicator of tobacco volumes in the Australian market.”

    http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/tobacco-kff

  327. No Name Brands permalink
    June 24, 2014 10:29 am

    “The rationale for plain packaging”

    What they didn’t account for was the law of unintended consequences. That plain packaging would remove brand loyalty and drive prices down.

  328. June 24, 2014 10:33 am

    “The Commonwealth Treasury has further advised that tobacco clearances (including excise and customs duty) fell by 3.4% in 2013 relative to 2012 “

    So you agree that smoking rates are declining?

  329. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 24, 2014 10:34 am

    Nobody has proven wrong that the number of sticks consumed has increased, which is what the Australian said. But I repeat myself.

    not sure if you are referring to the same thing as egg tony re the black market or cheaper ciggies being bought.

    Since when have we collected black market stats as the legitimate, quantifying measure of sales in the country? That’s like saying someone is selling cheap TV’s from the back of a van at the pub so that means national TV sales are up.

    If you mean single sticks being bought, when have we measured in sticks and not packs? It’s an apples and oranges argument to try and save face because the industry has been caught out trying change public opinion on smoking [with the help of the murdoch propaganda machine]. We know the IPA is tobacco funded and the coalition were dragged kicking & screaming into giving up theirs recently. I see it as an industry push with the complete backing of the coalition who for obvious reasons don’t want to be seen spruiking for big tobacco themselves.

  330. Trend Line permalink
    June 24, 2014 10:35 am

    Yes. Doesn’t everybody?

  331. June 24, 2014 10:38 am

    “Doesn’t everybody?”

    Apparently not.

  332. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 24, 2014 10:40 am

    What they didn’t account for was the law of unintended consequences. That plain packaging would remove brand loyalty and drive prices down.

    I think all of the consequences were all intended. The tobacco companies have to resort to cheaper pricing to sell their fags because there is no glam or celebrity/trend factor to promote a certain ‘cool’ brand. It is doing exactly what they wanted it to do. You can see just how much the companies hate their branding not being allowed on the packs.

  333. June 24, 2014 10:44 am

    “What they didn’t account for was the law of unintended consequences. That plain packaging would remove brand loyalty and drive prices down.”

    I think they well expected that plain packs would remove brand loyalty. That was the point.

  334. June 24, 2014 10:46 am

    And the fact of the matter is that smoking rates are in a steep decline, steeper than previous forecasts, which is no doubt why the Tobacco companies (and their benefactors/apologists) are desperately trying to discredit the strategies and tactics that were designed to achieve precisely that result.

    Boo-hoo….

  335. Tom R permalink
    June 24, 2014 10:51 am

    Apparently not.

    Precisely. The oz claimed consumption was up.

  336. Tom R permalink
    June 24, 2014 10:53 am

    That was the point.

    If only someone would have posted that 😉

  337. Tom R permalink
    June 24, 2014 10:55 am

    I must admit ao, it is passing strange that the big tobacco companies apparently have the data on the “black market”.

    One wonders how they came to possess this?

  338. Cheep Smokes permalink
    June 24, 2014 11:16 am

    “That was the point.”

    Yes, but did they also want to make tobacco products cheaper? Because that was the result.

  339. June 24, 2014 11:44 am

    ”””Since when have we collected black market stats”””

    exactly my points above armchair, l don`t know of any Govt estimates, best-guesses, or even if they have a fcuking clue to black-market `volumes`, so we don`t know if 1% or 20% of smokers have black-product, therefore, we don`t know the `transfered`amount of smokers either, hypothetically, if 10% of smokers have transfered to the black-product, then the white-market is `about` 10% incorrect.

  340. Tom R permalink
    June 24, 2014 11:50 am

    Yes, but did they also want to make tobacco products cheaper? Because that was the result.

    I don’t think they care, if it stops young people being lured into buying the garbage, then so be it. It has always been an option for those already smoking. The same argument could be made for increasing excise.

  341. June 24, 2014 11:54 am

    #or l could google l suppose,

    ””””””””””””Chop chop dominates the illegal tobacco market in Australia and is
    regarded as the area of greatest risk to tobacco excise revenue. As
    such it is the subject of greatest attention by the ATO law enforcement
    policy. It is estimated that approximately 1 in every 17 cigarettes
    smoked in Australia contains chop chop.4
    Estimates of the size of the chop chop market vary between 0.4 and
    2.6 million kg per annum, which translates to between $99 million and
    $600 million in lost tax and excise per annum. In the 2003-04
    financial year, the ATO seized around 68 tonnes of chop chop with an
    excise value of more than $19 million.
    http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/committee.nsf/0/2b14b998dda58536ca2571620017ecd2/$FILE/Sub%2046%20BATA%20-%20Attachment.pdf
    ””””””””””””””””’

  342. Tom R permalink
    June 24, 2014 11:57 am

    the ATO seized around 68 tonnes of chop chop with an excise value of more than $19 million.

    I wonder if the seized chop chop was counted as sold by the oz’s dodgy data?

    Guess we’ll never know 😦

  343. June 24, 2014 12:01 pm

    tom-r, nanny-roxons packaging was done to reduce `brand-loyalty` and as armchair said reduce the `cool`/trendy/chic image factor/s from smokes

    the `packaging` doesn`t effect the price anywhere near `tax` does

  344. Tom R permalink
    June 24, 2014 12:05 pm

    the `packaging` doesn`t effect the price anywhere near `tax` does

    That is what I was implying above when I said “The same argument could be made for increasing excise.” teabag 😉

  345. June 24, 2014 12:31 pm

    l guess it depends on which `evils` you are prepared to live with when it comes to increasing the size of the `gouge` on the consumer,

    the bigger the `gouge` whether it be dvds,cds, fashion-items or smokes-tax, the bigger the gap is for black-market/counterfeit goods

  346. June 24, 2014 12:34 pm

    another `evil` to consider, are smokes too expensive now and smokers `transferring` to choof.?

  347. Feelings permalink
    June 24, 2014 12:56 pm

    “the `packaging` doesn`t effect the price anywhere near `tax` does”

    You got a link for that, or did you see it on the telly?

  348. June 24, 2014 1:10 pm

    # l knew l saw a report this year,
    (the ato spoiling fun as usual)
    ””””””””””””””’The Australian Tax Office has raided a Victoria property and seized an estimated $15 million in excise value of illegal tobacco in what has become the largest ever seizure of tobacco plants in Australian history.

    After conducting a joint investigation, the ATO and the Australian Federal Police raided the regional property, confiscating about 350,000 mature tobacco plants as part of Operation Garnet, an initiative of the ATO.

    #don`t read more!
    http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/authorities-seize-15-million-of-illegal-tobacco-in-victorian-property-raid-20140504-zr4cg.html
    ””””””””””””””””’

  349. egg permalink
    June 24, 2014 1:13 pm

    ‘alcohol, in small amounts, can have no deleterious effect to your health (in fact, some claim that small amounts can be good for your health)’

    Yeah, I’ve heard that one.

  350. June 24, 2014 1:20 pm

    #heads-up Tinfoil`osy,

    ”””””””””””””””’Image is important in our society. The image that brands project is critical
    to their success, and those images must be conveyed by packaging-the ultimate touch point for consumer product brands. If the packaging doesn’t appeal to the consumer, why would the brand or product appeal?

    Consumers identify with the brands that match the perceptions of their lifestyles.
    http://www.flexpackmag.com/blogs/19-flexible-packaging-s-wrapthatblog/post/84426-maximizing-brand-image-through-package-design
    ”””””””””””””””””’
    #marketing 101

  351. June 24, 2014 1:24 pm

    brands themselves also have an `image` eg. Mckrusty-burger has a `fun` image, and reinforces that `fun` message with their `happy` meal packaging

  352. Tom R permalink
    June 24, 2014 1:33 pm

    The kouk is just doin’ the rounds destroying the deniers. They’re beggars for punishment 😉

    Oh dear. My old maths teacher, Mr Merrill, would be sending Terry to remedial class for that sort of error. Wrong Terry – the ABS data are the volume of tobacco consumed whether they are cheap or expensive sticks. Simple.

    McCrann rounds out his foaming-at-the-mouth-rant with a disparaging look at climate data. So the climate change denier embraces tobacco facts denialism.

    It say it all really.

    http://thekouk.com/blog/the-greyhound-whisperer-terry-mccrann-joins-tobacco-fact-deniers.html#.U6jwALHMoik

  353. Bagz 101 permalink
    June 24, 2014 1:35 pm

    “#marketing 101”

    I’m sure that’s all so very interesting Bagz. What has it got to do with how much plain packaging affects the price of cigarettes (which is the topic about which you made a specific claim, and about which I asked for your specific evidence).

  354. June 24, 2014 1:37 pm

    Tinfoil`osy, a better explainer,

    ”””””””””’The Role of Packaging in Building Brand Identity —
    It’s Not Just for Consumer Brands
    Packaging design is a critical component in building a brand’s image and identity. Anyone
    marketing to consumers already operates from this paradigm. The same holds true though
    for the commercial marketplace. Whether it’s a cosmetic product, or a 5–gallon pail of
    commercial paint, the packaging offers a huge opportunity to positively impact a brand’s
    image.

    http://www.frankefiorella.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/identityWise-The-Role-of-Packaging-in-Building-Brand-Identity.pdf
    ””””””””””””””
    # first page

  355. Kouky Economics permalink
    June 24, 2014 1:40 pm

    “Wrong Terry – the ABS data are the volume of tobacco consumed whether they are cheap or expensive sticks. Simple.”

    So can the Kouk tell us, just by looking at the ABS data, how many sticks were consumed, and what was their price?

    No. Simple.

  356. armchair opionator permalink
    June 24, 2014 1:46 pm

    ””Chop chop dominates the illegal tobacco market in Australia and is
    regarded as the area of greatest risk to tobacco excise revenue. ”

    Surely they can send a few helicopters out to check on the chop chop growers. Doesn’t seem a problem when tracking the dope growers!

  357. June 24, 2014 1:47 pm

    Tinfoil`osy, nanny-roxons `smoke`Laws are made of 2-components,
    1-tax
    2-packaging
    ________________

    1-the tax effects the price, and price sensitive consumer,

    ”””””Bagz. What has it got to do with how much plain packaging affects the price of cigarettes (which is the topic about which you made a specific claim, and about which I asked for your specific evidence).”””””””’

    # l don`t claim the package effects the price, tax does

    2-the packages effects the brand-image, and relates to the consumer-image, this is just marketing basics ie-101

  358. Tom R permalink
    June 24, 2014 1:58 pm

    the packages effects the brand-image, and relates to the consumer-image, this is just marketing basics ie-101

    Yet, for some reason, the oz thought that smokers going to cheap knock offs meant it failed. And so they told their readers it had. Tossers

  359. June 24, 2014 2:19 pm

    tom_r, Limited-News produces mainly junk, their big-tobacco bullshit proves this, but l am still doubtful about nanny-roxons `packaging` success, she would have had my respect if she had banned a couple of dozen of the worst toxins/poisons/chemicals they stuff into the smokes, but she didn“t, only took-on the `soft` or `mild` bit, tax and package.

  360. June 24, 2014 2:25 pm

    Tinfoil`osy, the simpsons did a great job trashin teh-usa 4wd`s marketing, they got just about all of`em.

  361. Tom R permalink
    June 24, 2014 2:26 pm

    but l am still doubtful about nanny-roxons `packaging` success

    Too early to call imo, but the signs look good.

    but she didn“t, only took-on the `soft` or `mild` bit, tax and package.

    lol. She has led the way against a formidable and well financed opponent, and the rest of the world looks on in anticipation. But, if you think that is gutless, so be it.

  362. Tom R permalink
    June 24, 2014 2:30 pm

  363. egg permalink
    June 24, 2014 2:39 pm

    Taking on the tobacco giants was heroic, but nobody has the balls to take on the booze lobby.

  364. June 24, 2014 2:58 pm

    she would have had my respect if she had banned a couple of dozen of the worst toxins/poisons/chemicals they stuff into the smokes, but she didn“t, only took-on the `soft` or `mild` bit, tax and package.

    What sanctimonious pontificating ass blowing bullshit you write.. FFS

    1: How the fuck would you know? BAT and Phillip Morris will never release those figures that would confirm of deny your opinionated assertion. I don’t see your specialist expert analysis or your policy recommendations quoted in the media quoted as an expert . If Big backy has purchased the front page of a major syndicated daily …put 2 + 2 together einstein.. put aside that blogosphere analytical theorisation wankery for a keystroke and reflect that maybe by way of this very action it may just be having a significant economic effect.

    2: All this fucking horseshit about Chop Chop.. Fuck its been coming in by the ton for 100 years, its nothing new. Its just “now” that Big Backy are outraged that it is happening and using it as propaganda. You are falling for this hook line and sinker for this increase in illegal tobacco. My mates have been buying it since the 60’s FFS. Its an illegal trade like the illegal and counterfeit smoke trade. Big Bacco is fucking knee deep in it, where do you think it comes from genius..space?

    3: So one of the greatest legislative victories in the history of public health against big tobacco, heralded and celebrated around the world as one of the most significant victories against tobacco is not worthy of your respect aye?… well big fucking deal. It has mine and multitude of health professionals from all area’s across the globe, in the end who fucking cares what you think because she has our unmitigated respect. Nicola Roxun , unlike 99 % of politicians joins an elite club of distinction with an actual legislated political legacy that made a difference . She will go down in Australian political history with this incredible and well celebrated politically legislated legacy. But this warrior who got this done against all odds is not tough enough for you sunshine? Fuck off.

    4: Calling her Nanny whats that about? Its offensive and fucking imacelic. Only a tool would use that term. Yeah yeah , she should have banned all the carcinogens in tobacco products, should have done all the stuff you want, which would have not been enough anyway , because your belligerent knobbery would never have been satisfied because you would have had nothing to whine about to make your dull life interesting…boo fucking hoo. Its a public health issue, cut her some slack she has achieved more than you will ever do in your insignificant little life.

    If this saves one kid from smoking and costs a million in doing it..its worth it and no Big tobacco, Cash for comment bog tossing wankoid fuckwit can convince me or the multitude of people otherwise. There is just no satisfying some people…

  365. June 24, 2014 3:02 pm

    tom_r, both you and ricky have been cheerleading for nanny-roxon packets, and l have said they are `mild` and pointed out smokes have hundreds of toxic chemicals in`em, yet all you guy`s do is try and `inflate` my words, and continually run from the chemical issue. Why the hell you guys think that all those poisons `should` stay in smokes has got me fcuked, the `packaging` will more than likely be a `long-and-slow` benefit, as in deterring `new` smokers. Why wouldn`t you guys want less poisons `now`, so that much-less damage(hopefully) is done to current smokers `now`, which is what l was wanting nanny-roxon to do ALONG with the packages.

  366. Skool Bagz permalink
    June 24, 2014 3:08 pm

    “# l don`t claim the package effects the price”

    Here’s some homework for ya. Next time you’re at the supermarket, compare the price of a well-known branded product with the no-name or generic equivalent. See if you notice a difference. Then report back to the class on how package affects price.

  367. Tom R permalink
    June 24, 2014 3:09 pm

    murdochs stoopid spans continents

  368. June 24, 2014 3:09 pm

    Was there a point to all of that?

  369. Tom R permalink
    June 24, 2014 3:17 pm

    Here’s some homework for ya. Next time the oz puts some random “data” up and proclaims it to definitively says one thing and therefore prove something they have a hard on for when all other data says otherwise and therefore indicate a different outcome to their declaration, flush the useless rag down the dunny 😉

  370. June 24, 2014 3:19 pm

    ”””””’What sanctimonious pontificating ass blowing bullshit you write.. FFS
    1: How the fuck would you know?””””””””’

    # lucky guess l suppose 🙂

    ””””””””””BAT and Phillip Morris will never release those figures that would confirm of deny your opinionated assertion. I don’t see your specialist expert analysis or your policy recommendations quoted in the media quoted as an expert.””””””””””””””

    .

    ”””””””’Chemicals in Tobacco Smoke
    There are over 4,000 chemicals in tobacco smoke and at least 69 of those chemicals are known to cause cancer.
    The list of 599 additives
    http://www.tricountycessation.org/tobaccofacts/Cigarette-Ingredients.html
    ””””””””””

  371. June 24, 2014 3:24 pm

    Tinfoil`osy, your super-market/product question is wrong, you`re talking about product/range pricing-points.

  372. June 24, 2014 3:33 pm

    Yes I and Nicola are well aware of whats in Tobacco products We don’t live under a rock with eyes closed like the consumers of murdochracy.. You dont have to preach to the converted.. We fucking get it.. as most do when a loved one slowly kills themselves on the fags…

    I get so excited when my friends quit. I watch them all try but its such and addictive drug. The only other drug more addictive is Sugar. The only successful quitters in my experience are cold turkey ready or those who never took it up in the first place. Big tobacco are tools remember how the sky was going to fall in and every pub would go broke and western civilisation would crumble like Rome when they stopped indoor smoking.. What fucking assholes, this is just another wankfest by greedy corporate trough pig drug pushers.

    Great Doco

  373. June 24, 2014 3:57 pm

    the next time l go to the supermarket Tinfoil`osy, it will most likely be aldi, which operates very differently to the coles/woolies duopoly,

    aldi `owns` most of the brands, in effect they are all `house-brands`, with a few unique exceptions, like vegemite and milo, which aldi does stock

  374. Picture Store permalink
    June 24, 2014 4:06 pm

    “murdochs stoopid spans continents”

    You keep falling for photoshops, Tom R. Prolly coz ya wanna believe. 😉

  375. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    June 24, 2014 4:12 pm

    you guy`s do is try and `inflate` my words

    Heavens!!

    Who would have thought that teabagz is so sensitive about that type of behaviour?

    I don’t suppose he’s ever tried that himself.

  376. June 24, 2014 4:24 pm

    Tinfoil`osy, using baked-beans in woolies as an example, the beans don`t `know` whether they are `premium` or `house`brand, what happens is people decide how they market them and the pricing points. Starting with the `house` brands, woolies has two, the well-known red-and-black on a white label, l suppose the `lower`house brand, and `select` the `upper`house brand. As woolies owns both brands, there is no slotting fees, and when the shelves are full of `branded`stock, the `lower`house brand is probably on the bottom shelf, and the `upper`(select)house brand is on the shelf above.

    Moving on to the `branded`beans, Lets say heinze and spc, the `premium` shelf space is at your shoulder/eye-level, spc and heinze bid?/pay slotting-fees for this premium shelf(say 2-feet or half-metre), say $200K a quarter nationwide,

    Lets say heinze out-bids-SPC/agrees with woolies, heinze wins the premium shelf, so spc will have to settle for the shelf above/below eye-level, and pays a reduced rate slotting-fee, say 180K/quarter nationwide,

    basically the eye-level `premium` shelf will cost the manufacturer the most, with price reducing each shelf further away from premium, the manufacturers may even choose to have a variety of shelf-slots, eg 1-premium 3-very-cheap, 2-mid-range, and this usually depends on the pricing-points(out-side promotions and special offers/events) not the `package` Tinfoil`osy, the package is decided by the brand`image` and pricing-point,

    and the `pricing-point` is different to merely the `price`

  377. June 24, 2014 4:34 pm

    “the beans don`t `know` whether they are `premium` or `house`brand”

    I know that feeling.

  378. June 24, 2014 4:36 pm

    Actually Teabagz’ product pricing and supermarket placement explanation is quite accurate.

  379. June 24, 2014 5:13 pm

    I purchased Some “Watties” baked beans the other day because they had run out of my favorite “Hienz” They were $1 cheaper and 100x better. The Coral Aldi version is great better than Heinz for mine.

    Aldi source lots of stuff and they have their own brand.
    The great thing about Aldi over the duopoly cartel is nobody pays to get on their shelves. If something is unpopular they replace it till they get a brand that works based on what the consumer wants.All the stuff at eye level in Coles and Woolies are paying to be there, they have premium display where the supplier pays for the privilege. Coles and Woolies will purposely take their generics off the shelves in favor of a supplier that pays for the privilege. There is a whole other business that the big two have just charging for placement.
    Did you know that the big two started protest groups against Aldi when it first opened. They also purchased the land adjoining their stores where possible so as to stop them opening up across the road. They also made complaints through bullshit groups of citizens objectig to them selling alcohol.. They are fucked, break em up I say.

    Most of that Chop Chop that you see sold illegally comes from tobacco farms owned by Big Tobacco executives, something they fail to disclose. The Big Tobacco companies actually have a whole other revenue stream in knock off fags and chop chop.

    Like Pharmaceuticals…
    Some of those generics are just production runs of the same thing with a different label.
    Take medicine. I asked my doctor and pharmacist what the difference was, both replied “nothing”. When the patent runs out they do another run with a generic label on it and its the exactly the same thing.
    Panamax = Panadol….

  380. June 24, 2014 6:00 pm

    ””””””””’Actually Teabagz’ product pricing and supermarket placement explanation is quite accurate.””””””””””’

    you can earn praise like this dumpty, if you actually `learn` something and stop peddling bullshit 🙂

    _________________

    ”””””’The Coral Aldi version””””’

    yeah ricky, they`re the one`s l get too, damn good,

    the best thing with aldi turning-up has been making the coles-woolies monsters start pantie-wetting and forced them to lower prices to match aldi 🙂

  381. June 24, 2014 6:12 pm

    I have ro admit that I’m not a regular shopper at Aldi.

    I’ve wandered in and out occasionally, but whenever I’ve been there there’s usually only one person working on the checkout counter and a huge queue for peeps to be served.

    However, given the thumbs up given for their baked beens I might have to venture back… 🙂

  382. Basking Bagz permalink
    June 24, 2014 6:43 pm

    “you can earn praise like this dumpty, if you actually `learn` something and stop peddling bullshit”

    Bagz is proud. He just got an elephant stamp.

  383. TB Queensland permalink
    June 24, 2014 6:50 pm

    I cannot believe that the usual suspects are still attempting to defend fkn tobacco pimps …

    Next they’ll be defending ice labs …

    They probably think chrysotile is a “recreation” drug …

  384. Tom R permalink
    June 24, 2014 7:01 pm

    Next they’ll be defending ice labs …

    WW will be pissed.

    Mind you, I can believe it. 😦

  385. Tom R permalink
    June 25, 2014 12:41 pm

    The trashing of the brand continues, it’s just getting what it deserves

    Rupert Murdoch’s ‘The Australian’ has been accused of conspiring with Big Tobacco to dissuade the UK and Ireland from introducing plain packaging legislation, with an apparently ‘misleading’ report claiming Australia’s landmark laws are failing.
    …………………………..

    We recently reported on an article published in The Australian which claimed that Australia’s tough new laws enforcing plain packaging of tobacco products had done nothing to deter sales but had actually increased sales. The ‘exclusive’ report by News Corp’s Aussie flagship has since been exposed as untrue, leading experts to question the motives behind the story.

    http://www.australiantimes.co.uk/news/news-from-australia/australia-world-news/the-australians-reputation-up-in-smoke-over-cigarette-plain-packaging.htm

  386. June 28, 2014 3:01 pm

    ””””””’The ‘exclusive’ report by News Corp’s Aussie flagship has since been exposed as untrue”””””’

    http://www.australiantimes.co.uk/news/news-from-australia/australia-world-news/the-australians-reputation-up-in-smoke-over-cigarette-plain-packaging.htm

    ””””””””’The Australian’ has been accused of conspiring with Big Tobacco to dissuade the UK and Ireland from introducing plain packaging legislation”””””””’

    #as most of us predicted up-thread tom-r, except for `our` usual suspects of course, for years now, Limited-News has only been teabag-pamphlet of propaganda, not what normal people would consider a `true` news-org, lets see if readership drops a little more 🙂

  387. Meta permalink
    June 28, 2014 6:01 pm

    (True.)

  388. June 28, 2014 6:19 pm

    Thanks Meta, the other will enjoy the vid, but if ya`dropped it for me, l can`t see video/audio, as l stripped them out of my computer to make page load quickly on my old computer.

  389. The New Normal permalink
    June 28, 2014 8:06 pm

    “not what normal people would consider”

    😯

  390. Tom R permalink
    June 30, 2014 8:06 am

    Is Mike Secocmbe “The New Normal” ❓ 😉

    A campaign of false data, planted in the Australian press, is being used to weaken tobacco laws abroad

    http://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2014/06/28/murdoch-and-the-ipa-work-together-big-tobacco/1403877600#.U63cYvmSyk8

  391. Tom R permalink
    June 30, 2014 8:08 am

    lol Meta, loved the video, ltd news are just a collection of hotplates, flying whatever plane they want to be flown at any given time. A self perpetuating truthiness. Nice 🙂

  392. The New Normal permalink
    June 30, 2014 9:28 am

    Is Mike Secocmbe “The New Normal”

    Depends. Are conspiracy theories “normal”?

  393. Tom R permalink
    June 30, 2014 9:42 am

    Are conspiracy theories “normal”?

    I wouldn’t know, But, what Seccombe wrote is not a conspiracy, it is a collation of facts, and a highlighting of gross mistakes perpetrated by murdoch all aimed at discrediting plain packaging. That is unequivocal. Is it “coincidental” that they have done this as other countries mull over the issue? Hardly One thing we know with murdoch, everything his papers print have a goal behind it.

  394. Tom R permalink
    June 30, 2014 9:43 am

    And just to be clear, that goal is not to educate its readers with accurate information, but to obfuscate in order pursue his own interests

  395. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 30, 2014 10:28 am

    ” Hardly One thing we know with murdoch, everything his papers print have a goal behind it.

    Yeah and leftists/socialists just print the facts. The most dishonest people i have interacted with are ALP supporters on blogs. Would not trust a single thing an ALP supporter says.

    I hope plain packaging works but i still see kids smoking at the railway station in the morning. Most ALP programs do not work. There is always some unforeseen stuffup.

    Personally i think alcohol is as big a problem. It is now everywhere The only time you cannot purchase it is on some public holidays. Even Aldi now sells it.

  396. Tom R permalink
    June 30, 2014 10:30 am

    I hope plain packaging works

    So, do you support the oz printing lies in order to try and bring it down before it really can take effect or not?

  397. Neil of Sydney permalink
    June 30, 2014 2:17 pm

    “So, do you support the oz printing lies in order to try and bring it down before it really can take effect or not?

    Listen mate all you care about is that the ALP is in power. People like you would have all of Australia living in caves rather than have a Coalition govt.

    What lies??

    Preliminary data says plain packing has not worked. I do give praise to Roxon for trying something.

    My experience is that most ALP policies do not work. There is always some unforeseen stuffup.

  398. egg permalink
    June 30, 2014 3:03 pm

    ‘Personally i think alcohol is as big a problem.’

    Bigger, because of the collateral damage.

    ‘Preliminary data says plain packing has not worked.’

    That appears to be the case. I took a straw poll around the traps and it appears (anecdotal evidence) that cannabis people are smoking a lot less tobacco. Which may go someway to explain the tobacco sales dip, or is that a hiatus.

    That was a rhetorical question.

  399. Tom R permalink
    June 30, 2014 3:13 pm

    That appears to be the case.

    That’s the problem, All other data disagrees. It shows a continuing fall in consumption. Even after this was pointed out, the oz continued to claim the opposite. And have been unable or unwilling to provide the proof to back up their assertion.

  400. egg permalink
    June 30, 2014 3:49 pm

    Right.

    Step out the back and we’ll talk about the weather, better than splitting hairs over whether the Murdocracy is running a conspiracy to discourage other countries from adopting Roxon’s theory.

  401. June 30, 2014 4:44 pm

    Preliminary data says plain packing has not worked.

    Where? Cough it up squeal isted of a generalised derogatory wingnut statement? where is the data? Support a statement with fact for ones you fucking good stepping tosspot …

    Put up or shut the fuck up you inane predictable bore..

  402. June 30, 2014 4:48 pm

    Egg are you serious? Conspiracy? fuck off its outright cash for comment collusion for the proliferation of syndicated propaganda… of course a person with a scientifically challenged brain like you would just put that down to a normal act of nature… 🙄

  403. egg permalink
    June 30, 2014 5:04 pm

    ‘Egg are you serious?’

    No

  404. June 30, 2014 5:19 pm

    Thought not..hey heads up. Orphan Black and Penny Dreadful both awesome up there with Fargo, the Bridge and True Detective… Archer if you’re into piss funny animation. You may have old me about Orphan Black, bloody stirling writing with an amazing concept…

  405. egg permalink
    June 30, 2014 5:48 pm

    I’m not really into horror or unnecessary violence.

  406. June 30, 2014 6:42 pm

    yet you watched the bridge? You must watch the test pattern excluding that criteria.

  407. Tom R permalink
    June 30, 2014 6:59 pm

    splitting hairs

    ROFL

    Considering it has been absolutely proven that the “evidence” used by the oz does not agree with any of the other data out there then there is no “splitting hairs”. The oz has got some dodgy, unconfirmed, cherry picked number and drawn a conclusion from that, and their conclusion does not align with ANY and ALL of the other data out there. The only thing to split is just how enmeshed murdochs tabloids are with the tobacco industry. We know the IPA are too gutless to expose their alliance, is murdoch?

  408. egg permalink
    June 30, 2014 7:13 pm

    That’s all very interesting TR, but as you can see my new portfolio is in international relations.

  409. June 30, 2014 7:24 pm

    I wanna see Squeals figures.. he must know people in big backy or the health department… cmon Squeal we need the figures cough em up..metaphorically speaking… We are waiting for your compelling peer reviewed insight that will irrefutably back up your statement with empirical compelling data…

    or is it just predictably wingnut teabag ass scrawl opinion again. I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt to comment on something that is not a dick cheese smeg version ancient history..

  410. Tom R permalink
    June 30, 2014 7:37 pm

    I wanna see Squeals figures

    So does squeal, ‘cept the ipa hasn’t released them yet

  411. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    June 30, 2014 8:18 pm

    Might as well deal with actual bias and misrepresentation in the media. On this occasion it is Fairfax, which is developing plenty of form for misrepresentation!

    The Press Council has considered whether its Standards of Practice were breached by an opinion article, Auto report is a fantasy tale with a tragic twist, in The Age on February 6 2014. A sub-heading read: “The Productivity Commission’s damning verdict on the car industry has no basis in reality”.

    The final paragraph referred to the Prime Minister’s response to the Holden announcement:

    “Abbott, when asked about the Holden workers who will lose their jobs, said they should be grateful they were being liberated from slaving on an assembly line, moving to living off Newstart and Work for the Dole. If this sort of liberation will suit Holden workers on $60,000 per year including overtime, how much more delightful it should be for Productivity Commission analysts on three times that. It can’t happen soon enough.”

    Accordingly, the council has concluded that the publication breached the principle concerning misrepresentation of facts in an opinion article.

    The Age is biased, it deliberately lies, it is earning its fast declining commercial viability.

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/press-council-adjudication-20140629-zsq34.html#ixzz367GRZqz8

  412. Splatterbottom permalink
    July 1, 2014 7:44 am

    WeEren’t the Age the fuckers who hacked the ALP and the Greens? Oh well let’s not worry about that sort of thing actually happening in Australia. Much better just to bash Muuuuurdoch!

  413. Tom R permalink
    July 1, 2014 8:11 am

    it is earning its fast declining commercial viability.

    I AGREE!

    Fairfax is barely any better than ltdnews, although, they don’t really lean any way, they seem to just blow in the wind, putting out shit on shit. They have a few good writers left, but they are far outweighed by the poor. As for the abc, they just follow along with whatever is the cycle of the day. The few times they have tried to do it alone, they fail miserably, and then get threatened in the process. Their death is not far away now. The only thing that can save them is a Labor victory (which could be a while away yet) and a Labor team with the balls to clean the rot out (which could be even further away)

    As for the “experiment” grodo linked to, yes, I’d call that a MASSIVE fail. Who did he get to partake, oz journos? Here’s why it is a FAIL.

    http://grogsgamut.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/election-2013-newspapers.html

    That, according to his little toy, is actually biased towards the ALP 😯

    Time to go back and check either his algorithm, or his inputs.

    http://thenewsaesthetic.com/p/headlineworm/

    Of course, ltdnews has jumped on this “data” and assumed it is as reliable as the totally corrupted “data” they used to support the cancer industry with. Which really only just adds to their ignominy 😦

  414. July 1, 2014 6:48 pm

    (grogsgamut/carson 63000 said)”””””””””””””’there’s a huge difference between an editorial endorsement and literally dozens of screaming front-page headlines, campaigning masked by the flimsiest pretence of being “news”, throughout the entire campaign.””””””””””””

    #l tend to agree with carson63000`s comment tom-r, to nick carson`s words,

    Limited-News now is ””masked by the flimsiest pretence of being “news”, throughout the entire””year, their tobacco sponsorship is evidence of that, (along with the willful marketing dis-information).

  415. Tom R permalink
    July 3, 2014 8:38 am

    A small victory, but a victory none the less. Mind you, I get the feeling that, if this drags on long enough, our current gubamint might not possess the intestinal fortitude to hold their ground in the same way that they do with the worlds most vulnerable people like asylum seekers.

    Australia has had a victory in the first step of the plain packaging challenge being played out in an international investment tribunal.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/australia-wins-first-battle-in-plain-packaging-trade-dispute-20140702-zst8d.html#ixzz36LyERZtX

  416. Tom R permalink
    July 4, 2014 9:58 am

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