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New Study Trashes Hockey’s Claim on Petrol and the Poor

August 15, 2014

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Research from the Australia Institute has trashed Joe Hockey’s claim that poor people don’t have cars, or don’t have far to travel if they do. 

In fact, the lowest-income earners in Australia spend the greatest amount on petrol as a proportion of their income, trashing claims by Joe Hockey that the increase in fuel tax is “progressive” because the wealthiest pay more.

The figures released by Joe Hockey’s office on car ownership and spending on petrol circulated did not include any examination of the spending as a proportion of income, which would indicate how much of an impact it would have on family budgets.

However, the Australia Institute found the lowest-earning group paid more than three times the proportion of their income on petrol as the highest group.

The study replicated Hockey’s figures that the lowest-earning 20% of households paid an average of $16.36 per week on petrol in 2009-10, rising to $53.87 for the highest-earning 20% of households.

But when expressed as a percentage of mean income for those same groups, the petrol spending represented 4.54% of income for the lowest-earning households but only 1.37% for the highest-earning ones.

 

 

 

 

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244 Comments leave one →
  1. August 15, 2014 10:03 am
  2. Walrus permalink
    August 15, 2014 10:52 am

    “In fact, the lowest-income earners in Australia spend the greatest amount on petrol as a proportion of their income……………”

    And the same could probably be said about food……….and accomodation………….and entertainment…………..and cigarettes………….and alcohol.

    So what’s the point ?

  3. August 15, 2014 10:54 am

    Did u miss the part about the new tax on petrol?

  4. August 15, 2014 11:02 am

    Or the bit about Hockey saying that poor people don’t have cars or very far to drive if they do?

  5. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    August 15, 2014 11:04 am

    Hockey’s comments were politically dumb, no doubt about that.

    But petrol prices fluctuate by about 15c/l each week, so I struggle to get particularly excited about a policy that will add less than 50c a week to typical petrol costs.

  6. August 15, 2014 11:13 am

    Tom, I think the point that’s being missed, is that Hockey was incorrect to say that the poor don’t have cars or far to travel.

    You only have to take a look at the outer Western suburbs of Sydney, where some of the poorest people in NSW live and the choked motorway to see that.

    They spend a helluva lot more on petrol than those who live just a few km from Sydney in the Eastern suburbs and lower north shore where some of the wealthiest people live.

    It was a fkn stupid thing to say, not because it’s factually incorrect, but it was also incredibly dumb.

  7. Meta permalink
    August 15, 2014 11:26 am

    (I might be a bit obtuse, but I can’t thus far tell from provided information who socioeconomically tends to drive what kind of vehicle, how fuel (in)efficient it might or might not be, how far that vehicle is or isn’t driven, or under what circumstances; differential costs of registration by vehicular engine-type might also have some initial and enduring impact on vehicle selection and its consequents, I guess.)

  8. Meta permalink
    August 15, 2014 11:37 am

    (I also can’t tell who, by-age and/or by-activity, constitutes the lowest socioeconomic quintile; at a guess, a higher proportion of the young and the aged than other quintiles?)

  9. August 15, 2014 11:39 am

    “at a guess, a higher proportion of the young and the aged than other quintiles?”

    And young families on low incomes who can’t afford to live close to the city.

  10. egg permalink
    August 15, 2014 11:52 am

    Fluctuations in the Australian dollar will have a greater impact on fuel prices, nevertheless Hockey was dumb in saying divisive stuff.

  11. Meta permalink
    August 15, 2014 11:56 am

    (I also can’t tell whether or not Joe’s fluctuating weight would add or subtract more or less than 50 cents per week in fuel costs from or to his Comcar-related fuel-card usage, or adequately account for the impact of his chauffer’s driving-style to allow for Joe’s penchant for keeping a firm grip on the common touch by hanging his limbs out of car windows and flapping his gums. It may be that Joe Hockey is not merely a fat cunt, he may well be a road and fuel hog.)

  12. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    August 15, 2014 11:56 am

    Yes, it was dumb. Though (factually) there is probably a difference between “the poorest” and “the working poor”. I doubt whether “the poorest” have cars, houses/shelter, jobs, TVs or anything else.

    He may have been trying to draw that distinction, but regardless of the finesse, it was dumb.

    Personally, I’d prefer to see higher fuel prices particularly to incorporate registration fees and 3rd party property. I can’t really see the point of these separate fees and charges any more, just bung petrol prices up.

  13. August 15, 2014 11:57 am

    “POOR people’’ have chipped in to spend more than $200,000 to keep Treasurer Joe Hockey in his chauffer-driven car and other modes of road transport over the past four years.

    Mr Hockey’s expenditure on entitlements report, ­obtained by The Daily ­Telegraph, reveals he has claimed $66,000 on his ­Commonwealth car, $57,000 on his private car, $54,000 on taxis and hire cars and about $30,000 on Cabcharge.

    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/in-road-travel-claims-reveal-treasurer-joe-hockey-rides-in-comfort/story-fni0cx4q-1227025126635

    When your “friends” at the Tele start issuing these sort of headlines your days are numbered..

    A cynic might think that Murdoch’s got a vendetta against Hockey’s leadership aspirations…

  14. Splatterbottom permalink
    August 15, 2014 12:23 pm

    “It was a fkn stupid thing to say, not because it’s factually incorrect, but it was also incredibly dumb.”

    Spot on.

    “POOR people’’ have chipped in to spend more than $200,000 to keep Treasurer Joe Hockey in his chauffer-driven car and other modes of road transport over the past four years.”

    Really? I was under the impression that “Poor people” don’t pay tax after you factor in the transfer payments they recieve.

  15. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 15, 2014 12:57 pm

    No more Mr Nice Joe
    http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-15/cassidy-no-more-mr-nice-joe/5671428

    …Australia, you see, doesn’t have a Warren Buffett. The American investor, one of the wealthiest people in the world, once told CNBC, “There’s been class warfare going on for the last 20 years … and my class has won…

    “We’re the ones that have gotten our tax rates reduced dramatically.”

    Wayne Swan warns of rise of business ‘oligarchs’ in new book the Good Fight
    ‘Bloody-minded vested interests’ are trying to run the country, says former treasurer in new book due out next week:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/15/wayne-swan-warns-rise-business-oligarchs-new-book-good-fight

  16. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 15, 2014 1:16 pm

    i’m thinking it’s a 100% reduction in fees, just like his court case in qld [david edridge from the hanson party] – how did that end up BTW?

    Tony Abbott gets discounted legal advice in Frances Abbott scholarship dispute:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/14/tony-abbott-gets-discounted-legal-advice-in-frances-abbott-scholarship-dispute

  17. August 15, 2014 2:19 pm

    “I was under the impression that “Poor people” don’t pay tax “

    Good point, they pay a low tax rate, which makes Murdoch’s attack on Hockey all the more interesting..

    Curiouser and curiouser…

  18. egg permalink
    August 15, 2014 2:28 pm

    ‘He may have been trying to draw that distinction, but regardless of the finesse, it was dumb.’

    He said it in his usual jocular style, as if talking to his mates in the back shed. The electorate is not amused.

  19. Neil of Sydney permalink
    August 15, 2014 2:53 pm

    Joe should just let it rip.

    Labor supporters (most) are parasites on the community

    Labor supporters are moaners and complainers who do nothing but moan an complain.

    Labor supporters do nothing but lock asylum seekers up.

    Labor supporters do not like surplus budgets. They want any surplus money spent on their enormous stomachs.

    Labor supporters just love debt and deficit. The bigger the deficit the better.

    Labor supporters live in laa laa land.

    Labor supporters believe in AGW. Hence it is untrue and an enormous lie.

    After having said that i would say you can vote for me if you like.

  20. August 15, 2014 3:17 pm

    🙄

  21. egg permalink
    August 15, 2014 3:23 pm

    Neil don’t be afraid to use dot points.

  22. August 15, 2014 3:29 pm

    Someone should breath test Joe… when the Closet for education can’t even defend you, you’re in the shit.
    Lets face it , like Abbott they were selling Hokey Pokie as a bloke and he’s just a ” great knockaround bloke” but like all the fiberals he’s a cigar puffing north shore elitist running fiberal donation racquets for his mates with their noses in public coffer troughs…

    He’s selling luncheon meat thats all lips and assholes as grain fed roast turkey…

  23. August 15, 2014 3:32 pm

    Actually.. I’m letting that one slide.. Squeal , its just too ridiculous to dignify a response 🙄

  24. August 15, 2014 4:05 pm

    Neil can just save that comment and repeat it for every post he does – covers every idiot argument he’s ever made.
    Save a lot of time on his and our behalf!
    🙄

  25. August 15, 2014 4:26 pm

    Save a lot of time on his and our behalf! 🙄

    Good call AO…He predominantly Cut and pastes every other vacuous bullshit comment, why not just use that one.. it epitomises the antipathies of his intellectual capacity and political discourse quite nicely. .

  26. egg permalink
    August 15, 2014 4:52 pm

    ‘Hours after being rebuked by Prime Minister Tony Abbott for the remarks, the Treasurer told Macquarie Radio: “I am really genuinely sorry.”

    “I am sorry about the interpretation. I am sorry about the words,” he said, adding that suggestions he was told to apologise are “dead wrong”.

    ABC

  27. Meta permalink
    August 15, 2014 5:56 pm

    (Clearly, as long as Teh Evil is dead, buried, cremated, and radio-active, I guess we could use directly spoken words which might suggest that Joe’s isolated no-or-little-used-car salesman’s pitch on FuelChoices is all forgiven and forgotten; is it?)

  28. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    August 15, 2014 6:14 pm

    Just in case some don’t notice, there is a fair difference between “the poorest”, eg those living in the Todd River in Alice Springs , and “the working poor” eg people who live in the outer suburbs and struggle to pay their bills and living expenses.

  29. TB Queensland permalink
    August 15, 2014 6:49 pm

    Labor supporters (most) are parasites on the community

    What an uninformed Dickwit™ you are master Kneel …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Just in case some don’t notice, there is a fair difference between “the poorest”, eg those living in the Todd River in Alice Springs , and “the working poor” eg people who live in the outer suburbs and struggle to pay their bills and living expenses

    What a nonsense (and obvious lack of experience) statement that is, ToM …

    Your outback experience is obviously no further that the “inland tours” … families move around in the back of utes … no trains, no buses … nothing !

    Let’s face it Hockey is a silvertail way out of touch with the real Australia and who should pop off to the UK and buy a rural mansion and live the rest of his life in luxurious obscurity …

    He thinks he’s a fkn Pommie Lord … and I for one,refuse to eat cake!

  30. egg permalink
    August 15, 2014 6:58 pm

    Joe made a blunder and apologised for his indiscretion. More power to Cred who gets the opportunity to read the riot act to the Ministers.

    The working poor, the striving lower middle class, might be the most disadvantaged. Still, the general fluctuations of the fuel market, depending on wars and the value of the Australian dollar, are already factored-in and absorbed.

    Its a storm in a teacup and unlikely to be on the radar at the next election.

  31. August 15, 2014 7:01 pm

    “…As everyone who knows me knows, all of my life I have fought for and tried to help the most disadvantaged in the community…”

    retch, retch, gag

    …and for there to be some suggestion that I had evil in my heart when it comes to the most disadvantaged is upsetting…

    … suggestion that I had evil in my heart or that I don’t care about you then I am sorry about that.”…”

    Sounds more like Abbott’s words than hockey’s
    Remember when Bernie baton was not “pure of heart in all things”

  32. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    August 15, 2014 7:03 pm

    Are you seriously that unobservant or inexperienced TB, that you don’t notice the difference between people living in a dry river bed, without homes or possessions… and in those in the outer suburbs who struggle with rent or fuel for their 15 year old Ford?

    Surely even you aren’t that lacking in common sense.

  33. August 15, 2014 7:15 pm

    I see that Hockey has apologised for his “insensitive” remarks.

    It only took 2 days.

    Perhaps those who didn’t have any qualms about his original remarks can explain what he’s then being compelled to apologise for?

    Hint: Crediln told him to.

  34. August 15, 2014 7:18 pm

    “…As everyone who knows me knows, all of my life I have fought for and tried to help the most disadvantaged in the community…”

    Yeah, cuban smoking, cognac swilling, chauffeur driven Hockey is the champion of the underclasses….

    He’s the personification of charity.

    What was he said about a nation of leaners and bludgers again….?

  35. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    August 15, 2014 7:20 pm

    Yep, it was insensitive and politically dumb, but it’s no use anyone pretending that living in the outer suburbs qualifies as “the poorest” particularly when there are clear examples of how very much more genuine poverty “the poorest” suffer.

  36. August 15, 2014 7:21 pm

    ToM you’re argument is BS.

    To suggest that the poorest won’t be affected by fuel prices is like saying the hungriest won’t be affected by a tax hike on food.

  37. August 15, 2014 7:23 pm

    Next you’ll be arguing the relative disadvantage of Aboriginal people who don’t look black versus those who do…. *rolls eyes*

  38. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    August 15, 2014 7:26 pm

    The examples that have been trotted out relate to the working poor, spending their time in traffic.

    Their lives are vastly different to the people living in the Todd River.

    Those people don’t go far in utes either.

  39. TB Queensland permalink
    August 15, 2014 7:58 pm

    Those people don’t go far in utes either.

    Jesus fkn Christ …

    Surely even you aren’t that lacking in common sense.

    You may recall that I don’t believe in “commonsense” … I believe in learned behaviour … yours is a bit too obvious …

  40. August 15, 2014 8:34 pm

    (For certain; our organizations Personal Fluffer would prefer to focus on Todd-River residents assumed lack of travel and petrol spend; rather than the growing working-poor demographic that sometimes live in their autos, or die in their autos from heating mishaps while trying not to die from the cold.)

  41. egg permalink
    August 15, 2014 8:36 pm

    ‘A learned behavior is some type of action or reflex that you learn. For example tying your shoes is a learned behavior, but crying is not. A learned behavior is one that you decide to learn, unlike ‘innate’ behavior. This is not a natural behavior, instead it is learned by that being. You can learn these behaviors by watching others do them, such as riding a bike or learning to write.’

    wiki

  42. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    August 15, 2014 8:38 pm

    Albanese – “He should go to western Sydney today and have a look at people driving all the way in to the city, or all the way into their workplace in any capital city from the outer metropolitan areas, they spend a higher proportion of their income than high income earners.”

    I still find it odd that anyone would say the people in Western Sydney are “the poorest”.

    “The poorest” are most likely to be without jobs, and this comment, as much as Hockey’s, shows a hopeless disconnect with reality and no exposure to the genuine 3rd world level poverty.

  43. August 15, 2014 8:46 pm

    I was unemployed once. I still owned a car.

  44. Oily Rag permalink
    August 15, 2014 8:58 pm

    Joe was right about distances driven by the poorest. Ten dollars of petrol gets your VT Commodore only so far.

  45. egg permalink
    August 15, 2014 9:01 pm

    The working poor rationalise their situation, if the price of petrol becomes untenable, they will drive to the nearest station and take a train. Which isn’t cheap and you struggle for a seat, but its nice to rub shoulders with the masses. So many interesting characters.

  46. August 15, 2014 9:04 pm

    ””””””Murdoch’s attack on Hockey all the more interesting”””””’

    Looks like Limited-News is engaging in a little `wagon-circling` on mr-rabbits behalf #book-response

  47. armchair opionator permalink
    August 15, 2014 9:10 pm

    “… The working poor rationalise their situation, if the price of petrol becomes untenable, they will drive to the nearest station and take a train…”

    Not always, many people won’t take public transport at all, they flatly refuse it, they cut down on food and meds, family/child needs before being without the fuel for the car.

  48. August 15, 2014 9:14 pm

    ””””””””””””””’fanning class warfare of course. In the minds of some, any plea for fairness across the board is dismissed in that way.

    Australia, you see, doesn’t have a Warren Buffett. The American investor, one of the wealthiest people in the world, once told CNBC, “There’s been class warfare going on for the last 20 years … and my class has won.

    “We’re the ones that have gotten our tax rates reduced dramatically.”
    http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-15/cassidy-no-more-mr-nice-joe/5671428
    ”””’via”armchair”””””””””””””””’

    good post, not the usual barrie, glad to see my abc removing their head from their arse from time to time

  49. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    August 15, 2014 9:21 pm

    ”If the price of petrol becomes untenable, they will drive to the nearest station and take a train.”

    Really? How many struggling people (as distinct from “the poorest”) work in places easily accessible by the train? Look at all the warehouses, light manufacturers, auto repairers/panel beaters etc… they aren’t located on train lines, and they’re the places they struggling low income earners work.

  50. August 15, 2014 9:34 pm

    bullshit, they `usually` have no `fixed` employment and `work` is meted-out one day at a time, docks today, warehouse tomorrow, etc .. particularly if they`re stuck working for slave-labor hire outfits

  51. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    August 15, 2014 9:41 pm

    Have I said they work only in a single location? Or for a single employer? Or that they’re full time?

    You really are a dill.

  52. August 15, 2014 9:46 pm

    ”””Hockey has apologised”””It only took 2 days.”””’
    ”””didn’t have any qualms about his original remarks”””

    ”””compelled to apologise”””

    ”””Hint: Crediln told him to.””” #BINGO 🙂

  53. August 15, 2014 10:04 pm

    (For Certain; our Personal Fluffer is making assumptions that `specific` jobs by industry are low-paid junk-jobs while others are not. This is not the case, as more people become unemployed, more people compete across industries of all types for sub-prime employment, eg.nurses-compete-with-457-visa-imports, ex-managers now compete for shit-kicker jobs, against traditional shit-kickers. Take a look at the recent 20,000 `new` jobs created last month, ALL-PART-TIME. The job-erosion is spasmodic, not industry based, or particular `type`, mine-truck drivers are up against `robotic`trucks, check-out chicks are up against DYI supermarket check-outs, back-office jobs and call-centers off-shored to india, along with certain `design`, engineering, programming jobs, just to mention a few.)

  54. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    August 15, 2014 10:14 pm

    I have no idea what you’re on about, it’s just your typical rambling crap.

    However-
    • People who have itinerant work generally don’t rely on trains to get to their job(s)
    • People in itinerant jobs, have plenty of difficulty meeting their living costs, but they don’t experience the crushing poverty of people living in the Todd River
    • “Struggling” and “working poor” isn’t the same as “the poorest”

  55. August 15, 2014 10:29 pm

    ””””I have no idea””””

    #for once, we agree

  56. egg permalink
    August 15, 2014 10:35 pm

    ‘they aren’t located on train lines, and they’re the places they struggling low income earners work.’

    Car to the nearest station, then a bus at the other end for the final leg to work. People can live without the car.

    Kitty’s knowledge of the lower working class is better than mine and she thinks they would rather abstain from other pleasures for the joy of driving to work.

    Free choice is a wonderful thing.

  57. Meta permalink
    August 16, 2014 1:55 am

    (What I think Neil meant to say is that Poor People and Disadvantaged People should be assisted to reduce their parasitisms on Good People, and assisted to join the ranks of the Poorer People and More Disadvantaged People if they don’t; and the Poorer People and the More Disadvantaged People assisted to join the ranks of the Poorest People and the Most Disadvantaged People if they don’t, either; all for their own goods, and for the good of Good People, and for the good of the Nation; and Big Thanks and Praises Be should be given to a Good Government with a good heart.

    And I, for one, am really, genuinely, very sorry that Neil’s supportive words of encouragement and programme for practical deeds for the benefits of fellow Australians have been misinterpreted in such a dead wrong way.

    Now, I know there might be some perverted leftoids, like that Taylor woman from The Graudian, who might still disagree; who might still be spreading outrageous lies, like ‘Joe Hockey may be sorry, but that doesn’t mean he gets it’, but they would be wrong, dead wrong.

    And I make no apologies, and nor should Treasurer Hockey, for making and taking the tough but fair political-economic decisions necessary to fix the Budget disaster we inherited from Bad People, Corrupt People, Evil People, Labor People, and necessary to ensure a future prosperity for all Australians where no Good Person gets left behind.)

  58. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    August 16, 2014 9:27 am

    It’s reported that Wayne Swan is about to launch his memoir. I can hardly wait to read it.

    Options for the title-
    *Don’t blame me
    *But, but, but…
    *The surplus is coming!
    *Anyone can become Treasurer
    *2+2 can equal 5
    *Blah, blah, blah
    *Waffle and evasion for beginners

    Swan is one politician who should just fade from memory.

  59. Tom R permalink
    August 16, 2014 10:10 am

    I still find it odd that anyone would say the people in Western Sydney are “the poorest”.

    That’s OK, I still find it odd that anyone would say that 20% of people live in the Todd River in Alice Springs

    *Anyone can become Treasurer

    hockey supports that concept. But, can anyone become the “World’s Greatest Treasurer”?

    When will they recognise the grateness(!) that lies within?

  60. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 16, 2014 10:56 am

    People in itinerant jobs, have plenty of difficulty meeting their living costs, but they don’t experience the crushing poverty of people living in the Todd River
    • “Struggling” and “working poor” isn’t the same as “the poorest”

    Agree with you tomM, the people living in the todd river bed would be very, very lucky to have use of a car, more likely to have visiting services come in to them [health, welfare, legal] due to their lack of nearly everything needed to carry out any normal daily activities. These basic services necessary to ensure they live just a little longer. They don’t work most of them, likely sick from grog or drugs or both to escape the misery that is their life, lucky not to be murdered, raped or bashed just for sport – grinding, life ending poverty.

    The working poor don’t have much to spare and exist hand to mouth each week, juggling bills and living expenses without the ability to save for any family/household emergency that comes up. No annual holidays for them. The pollies call them ‘the battlers’ don’t they? I imagine they would very much resent hockey calling them leaners and telling them they don’t drive much when often they drive an old car that costs a lot to run [and maintain] to keep on earning the wage that the family needs just to keep on struggling. Cost of living rises would always hurt.

  61. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 16, 2014 11:09 am

    Swan is one politician who should just fade from memory.

    along with most of abbott’s bench warmers [front and back].

  62. egg permalink
    August 16, 2014 11:18 am

    ‘The working poor don’t have much to spare and exist hand to mouth each week’

    Yep its tough, but that’s how it works in a free enterprise system. Most of us grew up in struggle street, the bottom rung of the greater middle class, from which you manage to escape.

    Middle class welfare has its limitations and assuming the PPL flounders, its fair to say the Third Way is politically dead.

  63. TB Queensland permalink
    August 16, 2014 11:41 am

    Yep its tough, but that’s how it works in a free enterprise system.

    All the more reason to change it …

    Another ecopolitical system destroyed by greed at the top …

    Enlightened billionaires are starting to see the failings of Über Kapitalism and the real reason it is decaying as a system …

    From Lateline … last night …

    Nick Hanauer became a billionaire from far-sighted investments in Amazon and other Internet start ups.

    In a recent essay for ‘Politico’ magazine titled ‘The Pitchforks are Coming For Us Plutocrats’, the entrepreneur argues that unless growing inequality is dealt with, America could have a revolution on its hands.

    http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2014/s4068402.htm

    Its always noice to know your not alone …

  64. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 16, 2014 12:10 pm

    Middle class welfare has its limitations and assuming the PPL flounders, its fair to say the Third Way is politically dead.

    Especially when the plutocrats are in charge, writing all government policy, selling off any public assets and services. What makes the business council an expert body in public policy? How does twiggy qualify for writing welfare policy?

    The corporations have been allowed to take over every public institution, absolutely amazing stuff, this government has completely capitulated to the power of capitalist greed.

    Where were the big business parasites on the election papers? did anyone vote for government by big business bigots?

  65. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 16, 2014 12:31 pm

    Most of us grew up in struggle street, the bottom rung of the greater middle class, from which you manage to escape.

    The problem of today is that the middle class is decreasing and the rungs in the ladder fewer as wealthy business is paying less and less tax and making more and more profits while getting subsidies and incentives paid by taxing the middle classes. The wealthy are also getting disproportionately wealthier. The middle class is being slugged everywhere, taxed more in indirect taxes, stagnant or lower wages and slave driving working conditions with unpaid overtime, redundancies and attacks on the unions who do protect workers interests. The natural inequality of the free enterprise system you so admire.

  66. egg permalink
    August 16, 2014 12:42 pm

    ‘The problem of today is that the middle class is decreasing and the rungs in the ladder…’

    In the US this is clearly visible, the lower middle class has been increasing and the rich have become richer, and it might be happening here.

    ‘The natural inequality of the free enterprise system you so admire.’

    I agree it has its problems, but even the communists now recognise the value of the free enterprise system.

  67. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 16, 2014 12:54 pm

    In the US this is clearly visible, the lower middle class has been increasing and the rich have become richer, and it might be happening here.

    At the least, here we have the gap/gulf widening rapidly between the middle classes and the very wealthy few which shows that the economy is trickling up, not down as the wealthy and their spruikers like to pretend.

  68. TB Queensland permalink
    August 16, 2014 12:55 pm

    I agree it has its problems, but even the communists now recognise the value of the free enterprise system.

    But not completely overcome by it … the ebola of business – identified by $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

  69. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 16, 2014 1:20 pm

    The poor don’t have celebrity chefs flown into washington for a dinner:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2631397/Is-age-entitlement-ALREADY-Joe-Hockeys-50-000-dinner-bill-paid-taxpayers-revealed-days-tough-budget.html

  70. egg permalink
    August 16, 2014 1:23 pm

    ‘here we have the gap/gulf widening rapidly between the middle classes and the very wealthy few which shows that the economy is trickling up’

    If we take the very poor and very rich out of the equation it might be easier to solve the problem.

    The best way to reduce the gap between the lower and upper middle classes is through material progress. Increased productivity should lower unemployment, but at the same increasing technological change means none of our jobs are safe.

    What is your ideal financial system?

  71. TB Queensland permalink
    August 16, 2014 1:27 pm

    Increased productivity should lower unemployment

    Watch my Lateline link … perhaps less profit taking and higher wages would create more of the multiplier effect adding to more opportunities, more jobs and more risk taking …

    Just how much money do a few people really need?

    I’m constantly astounded at how much people “think” they need to be “happy” …

  72. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 16, 2014 1:40 pm

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/03/productivity-zombie-economy

    …Like a zombie, the productivity doctrine is back – we need to fight it
    Productivity gains achieved by driving Australian workers harder are not sustainable. Productivity-based reform is a zombie that needs to be killed once and for all…

    A plea to the left: push back harder:
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-15/dunlop-a-plea-to-the-left-push-back-harder/5673008

    …The undying budget backlash suggests that there are limits to what a reactionary government can do when the people push back, writes Tim Dunlop…

  73. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 16, 2014 1:51 pm

    Perpetual growth is unsustainable and irresponsible use of finite resources and energy and is ruining the environment that sustains all life.

    Dick Smith and Graham Turner are on ABC24 right now in a press club address talking about the great unspoken: unsustainable Population Growth, you can also catch it on iView.

    from john quiggin [above link]

    …The problem is, as the experience of the last 20 years has shown, that productivity gains achieved by driving workers harder are not sustainable, except in recession conditions like those of the 1990s. As soon as the labor market recovers, overworked employees will either quit to look for new jobs, or find unofficial and unsanctioned ways of restoring work-life balance.

    Genuine long-term improvements in the productivity of the economy can be gained only through educating the workforce to take account of improvements in technology (only a small proportion of which are generated domestically) and through macroeconomic and labour market policies that avoid wasting human potential through unemployment and other forms of social exclusion. It’s time to focus on these issues and bury the zombie agenda of the 1980s once and for all…

  74. egg permalink
    August 16, 2014 2:16 pm

    ‘perhaps less profit taking and higher wages would create more of the multiplier effect adding to more opportunities, more jobs and more risk taking …’

    A very interesting novel idea which might work. It should lift a sluggish economy, with inflation the only bug bear.

  75. egg permalink
    August 16, 2014 2:24 pm

    Unsustainable population growth has nothing to do with Australia.

    also

    Quiggin is talking through his hat.

  76. egg permalink
    August 16, 2014 3:06 pm

    ‘…overworked employees will either quit to look for new jobs, or find unofficial and unsanctioned ways of restoring work-life balance.’

    Those of the lower middle class seek to improve their lot, a job with better pay and some glamour, but failing to achieve these modest ambitions they run the risk of falling into abject poverty.

    To stop this becoming endemic a good government would offer them a solution, an exit strategy from the depths of despair. Abbott’s plan for decentralisation and mass fast transport will gradually seem very attractive to those who find themselves redundant

    In China capitalism is a model in progress and corruption appears to be endemic.

    http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2014-08/16/content_18354690.htm

  77. TB Queensland permalink
    August 16, 2014 5:36 pm

    Those of the lower middle class seek to improve their lot, a job with better pay and some glamour, but failing to achieve these modest ambitions they run the risk of falling into abject poverty.

    Upper, middle and lower “classes” is 20th Century Pommie speak and is very deceptive? (The Downton Abbeys of England went decades ago – to tourism)

    In Australia’s 21st Century we have is poor (poorer and poorest?), comfortable and rich … it is supposed to be an egalitarian society – tell that to SIR Tony Abbott … poncy plonk that he is …

    Only 30% of the population is ever “upwardly mobile” not 100% … its the 70% that we need to nurture and care for … the 2% at the very top super rich couldn’t give a flying fuck about the rest of us …

    CBA’s recently announced $8.6 billion profit (along with all the other three banks’ profits) is obscene when you consider the issues that society in general has to deal with …

    Did you watch the Lateline link, yet

  78. egg permalink
    August 16, 2014 5:58 pm

    Its an egalitarian society under the law.

    ‘Did you watch the Lateline link, yet’

    Yes and I was impressed with the logic, but we’ll have to keep an eye on the Seattle experiment.

    I noticed Joe Hockey believes increasing the minimum wage will beggar the country.

  79. TB Queensland permalink
    August 16, 2014 6:57 pm

    The Prof don’t quite get it … pollies need to serve the community not themselves or their backers …

    “I think the message is governments have got to perform much more effectively than they necessarily are,” Prof McAllister said.

    He attributed part of the disillusionment to the frequency with which Aussies go to the polls, which was higher than nearly any other country.

    With federal elections every three years and state elections every four, and local government polls on top of that, Aussies tend to vote every 18 months.

    And then …

    “If one of the political parties could gain a charismatic leader — such as a Bob Hawke — that could reinvigorate it,” he said.

    Strangely enough, Hawke, used to make me cringe … but he was a great PM …

    http://www.news.com.au/national/voter-disillusionment-at-record-levels-according-to-figures-from-anu-and-lowy-institute/story-fncynjr2-1227026564693

  80. TB Queensland permalink
    August 16, 2014 7:04 pm

    Its an egalitarian society under the law.

    Under what fkn “law”? We are governed primarily by royalty!

    No law determines egalitarianism … unless you have a link …

    And especially in SIR Tony Abbott’s tiny mind … I’m surprised (nay, pissed off, that Cosgrove accepted his sirship {sic})

  81. TB Queensland permalink
    August 16, 2014 7:12 pm

    “”” The poor don’t have celebrity chefs flown into washington for a dinner:””””

    KL, pity that the DavidJTwomey tweet didn’t show the “Average Joe’s” pension under the pollies …

    http://www.humanservices.gov.au/spw/customer/publications/resources/rt010/rt010-1307en.pdf

    Works out to about $33,000 pa per couple … poor, poorer, poorest? Wonder if they care …

    History …

    http://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/publications/rt010?utm_id=7

  82. Neil of Sydney permalink
    August 16, 2014 7:25 pm

    “Wonder if they care … “

    The only people who care about us are our parents and even then that is sometimes not true.

  83. TB Queensland permalink
    August 16, 2014 7:28 pm

    The only people who care about us are our parents and even then that is sometimes not true.

  84. egg permalink
    August 16, 2014 7:53 pm

    ‘No law determines egalitarianism … unless you have a link …’

    You are correct, I should have said equal under the law.

  85. TB Queensland permalink
    August 16, 2014 8:12 pm

    I should have said equal under the law

    Djareckon?

  86. egg permalink
    August 16, 2014 8:23 pm

    Its a reasonably good justice system.

    On the question of charismatic leadership, Hawke and Keating were outstanding leaders, but neither were charismatic in the true sense of the word.

  87. Neil of Sydney permalink
    August 16, 2014 8:26 pm

    “On the question of charismatic leadership, Hawke and Keating were outstanding leaders”

    Too bad they never got any good economic numbers. Obama seems similar. Gets people all excited but turns out to be a dud.

  88. August 16, 2014 9:37 pm

    The only people who care about us are our parents and even then that is sometimes not true.

    Yeah a gull body condom or retrospective abortion in your case…

    On the question of charismatic leadership, Hawke and Keating were outstanding leaders, but neither were charismatic in the true sense of the word.

    What the fuck does that profound tossery even mean?

    I guess only Monkton has enough charisma to get you panties off and moisten your vagina for Sqweel its JWH in a tracky… 🙄

  89. egg permalink
    August 16, 2014 11:05 pm

    ‘Ultimately charisma is the result of excellent communication and interpersonal skills, as these skills can be learned and developed – so developing your charisma is possible.’

    Hawke and Keating developed these skills through learned behaviour, but they are not truly charismatic which is innate, with the power of persuasion coming through the deity or some other metaphysical contraption.

  90. #gothemightyfkntigerz!!!! permalink
    August 16, 2014 11:46 pm

    http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-08-16/rampant-tigers-feline-fine

  91. Meta permalink
    August 17, 2014 3:04 am

    (Re Nick Hanauer, it seems Y supply creates its own X demands. For those of a mind to buy into it and with, erm, the (pre-)requisite discretionary funds to do so. I guess. All very perplexing.)

  92. Meta permalink
    August 17, 2014 3:32 am

    (Someone might need to have another little gnatter to the ABC about the offsidedness of the Public Broadcaster’s ‘fact-checking’ unit: Fact check: Joe Hockey’s ‘poor people’ don’t have cars, don’t drive far claim misleading.)

  93. Meta permalink
    August 17, 2014 4:07 am

    (And more from Nick Hanauer on futures options, via TED: Beware, fellow plutocrats, the pitchforks are coming )

  94. Neil of Sydney permalink
    August 17, 2014 6:22 am

    “Wayne Swan warns of rise of business ‘oligarchs’ in new book the Good Fight

    Why would anyone listen to anything Swan said? How many times did he promise a surplus? Apparently 500 times.

    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/labor-urged-to-apologise-over-newsletter-boasting-it-had-delivered-a-budget-surplus/story-e6frf7kx-1226572053433?nk=ba020a031b6a968b18203132bb9ee0f3

    THE Opposition has called on Labor to apologise for using taxpayers money to send newsletters to households boasting it had “delivered” a Budget surplus.

    Five days before Christmas, Treasurer Wayne Swan said a surplus was “unlikely” after the Government promised more than 500 times it would be delivered.

    In Parliament, Victorian Liberals Tony Smith and Kelly O’Dwyer sought to embarrass Labor by revealing newsletters said the Budget was “back in surplus on time as promised”.

  95. Meta permalink
    August 17, 2014 8:16 am

    Samantha Maiden forgives ya, Joe, and that’s ultimately what matters to HUN readers; just ignore the mean-spirited jibe about pig-headedness and carry on smartly with what needs being done…

    “[T]he Treasurer’s grovelling, emotional mea culpa on Friday for his self-destructive and ill disciplined approach to selling his first budget is just the opening act of the real action. It was smart and it was necessary. First the talk, now comes the budget action.”)

  96. August 17, 2014 9:04 am

    The gift that keeps on giving..

    “Tony Abbott’s new gaffe rubbishes Scottish Independence…”

    http://www.whitsundaytimes.com.au/news/tony-abbotts-new-gaffe-rubbishes-scottish-independ/2354181/

  97. August 17, 2014 9:06 am

    “Samantha Maiden forgives ya, Joe, and that’s ultimately what matters to HUN readers;”

    YEP!

    How is Australia faring under the Liberal Government?

    I think Australia’s mood and morale have worsened considerably. The actions of the Government are harsh and its demeanour has been appalling. Citizens are mostly able to understand and bear tough measures but they cannot abide administrative bad faith and leadership that engages so obviously in bullying and antagonistic culture war against much of the population.

    The sense of autocracy, corruption and overbearing male authoritarianism is palpable and, of course, people don’t like it. It is evident that the Government refuses to embrace the whole of society with warmth, compassion and magnanimity. The wealth divide is growing alarmingly. The sectarian tough guy political culture has never been so narrow, immature, emotionally retarded or so dysfunctional – and it is all so utterly boring, unimaginative and colourless. The people of Australia are mostly lovelier, saner and wiser than the Government.

    Original interview from The New Zealand Herald Twelve Questions: Michael Leunig May 15, 2014.

  98. TB Queensland permalink
    August 17, 2014 9:49 am

    “What the Scots do is a matter for the Scots and not for a moment do I presume to tell Scottish voters which way they should vote,” Mr Abbott said.

    “As a friend of Britain, as an observer from afar, it’s hard to see how the world would be helped by an independent Scotland.

    “I think that the people who would like to see the break-up of the United Kingdom are not the friends of justice, the friends of freedom, and the countries that would cheer at the prospect… are not the countries whose company one would like to keep.”

    Abbott thinks he’s the Oz Churchill … y’know the dimwit that caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands in two world wars …

    Why not leave it at the first fkn sentence? Boorish amateur like anyone who voted for the twat …

  99. egg permalink
    August 17, 2014 10:47 am

    ‘The Chaser are the inheritors of Juvenal, with a taste for the obscene, vicious and misanthropic, while Clarke and Dawe are descendants of Horace, gently mocking our pollies for their venality, stupidity and folly.’

    Good story by Pender and I’m a Horace fan.

  100. August 17, 2014 11:03 am

  101. TB Queensland permalink
    August 17, 2014 11:12 am

    Come back Sean Micallef.

    Hear! Hear!

    Been wondering where … Mad As Hell had got to!

    This brought back memories

    John Clarke, who writes all of the scripts for Clarke and Dawe

    I may have told this tale before … but back in 1990 I was producing a couple of WH&S training videos at Channel 9 in Brisbane and we had to wait till the news had finished before we could access the editing room … so the guy assisting me and I were having a bite to eat and coffee in the staff lunch room, just the two of us and in walks John Clarke, I’ve always been a big fan, so jumped up and said so … my friend did the same … John sat down and we offered him a coffee … said he didn’t have time … he was writing the script for THAT evening’s spot … he had fifteen minutes!

    “So”, he said, “what’s been happening in Queensland” … and got out his notebook … we nearly fell off our chairs … very clever gentleman!

  102. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    August 17, 2014 11:33 am

    Why would Abbott intervene in an orderly democratic process in the UK?
    I think Scotland should separate from the UK because-
    • It has a distinct culture and history
    • It is seen as an outpost of England
    • It has long been plundered by the south
    • Independence would allow Scotland to remain in the EU
    • Scotland is capable of establishing its own international relations

    But Abbott says supporters of Scottish independence are not “friends of freedom” or “friends of justice”. It is quite beyond me. Personally, I happen to like both freedom and justice.

    Abbott doesn’t do himself any favours when he comes up with this type of crap.

  103. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 17, 2014 11:34 am

  104. TB Queensland permalink
    August 17, 2014 11:43 am

    I think Scotland should tell anyone who isn’t Scottish to fk off and mind their own business … especially anyone living half a world away …

    BTW, ToM, have you ever visited the UK and especially Scotland?

  105. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 17, 2014 11:43 am

    Abbott Brands Almost Half The Scottish Population ‘Enemies Of Freedom’:
    https://newmatilda.com/2014/08/16/abbott-brands-almost-half-scottish-population-enemies-freedom
    …Freedom loving Tony Abbott has done it again, this time insulting almost half the Scottish population over an upcoming referendum on secession.
    Ladies and Gentleman, the world might just have found its new George W. Bush. Albeit without the muscle of the US. Or the nuclear weapons. Or the economy. Or the international recognition. Or anything like the power…

  106. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    August 17, 2014 11:49 am

    I’ve spend quite some time in Glasgow TB.

  107. egg permalink
    August 17, 2014 12:04 pm

    ‘Abbott doesn’t do himself any favours when he comes up with this type of crap.’

    Strongly agree, Cred seems to have lost control and may need replacing.

  108. TB Queensland permalink
    August 17, 2014 12:04 pm

    I’ve spend quite some time in Glasgow TB.

    That’s not Scotland, ToM, that’s where all the Jummies come from … do you know any? 🙂

    I’m thinking its time Queensland seceded … might write to the Scottish First Minister and ask his opinion … 🙄

  109. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 17, 2014 12:08 pm

    http://andrewelder.blogspot.com.au/2014/08/spoiled.html

    …Wayne Swan delivered six budgets with no surplus, and was regarded by the press gallery as a failure. Joe Hockey delivered one budget with five forecast, none in surplus, and until now was given the benefit of the doubt…

    …As I said earlier, that budget came from the IPA and big-business cowboys like Tony Shepherd, not from anything intrinsic to Hockey. It’s a sign of the meaninglessness of the ‘moderate’ tag, and of Hockey’s ambition, that he embraced that malarkey, and overestimated his ability to get it through parliament and to the public. It was a grievous fault…
    …One thing the press gallery has failed to notice is that any minister who stumbles will get no support from Abbott…

  110. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    August 17, 2014 12:24 pm

    Yeah, right, Glasgow is only about 25% of Scotland’s population.

    (I shared a flat in Glasgow with a nice lass when I was in my late 20s)

  111. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 17, 2014 12:53 pm

  112. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 17, 2014 1:13 pm

    Going against the grain on data retention
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-12/berg-going-against-the-grain-on-data-retention/5664082

    …Their experience shows that Tony Abbott was spot on when he said on Wednesday that data retention was designed to fight “general crime”, not just terrorism.

    In a sample 12-month period, an Austrian review found that the most common law enforcement use of retained data was for cases of theft, followed by drugs, followed by stalking. Terrorism didn’t rate.

    Internet traffic data retained by Poland’s scheme is being used “more and more” for civil disputes – even divorce cases.

    The Danish Justice Ministry found only two cases where session logging has been useful in half a decade. Neither concerned terrorism. Denmark gave up data retention in June this year.

    Germany’s Federal Crime Agency concluded that data retention had no statistically relevant effect on crime or crime clearance. Crime continued its long-term decline even after data retention was abandoned in Germany in 2010…

  113. Neil of Sydney permalink
    August 17, 2014 1:23 pm

    One reason people are against Scottish independence is that a lot of regions around the world also want it. Spain has an area that wants to leave. The question is where do you stop. Western Australia has always had Independence tendencies.

  114. egg permalink
    August 17, 2014 1:46 pm

    “If you fail to win Glasgow, you’re unlikely to win the referendum,” John Curtice, professor of politics at Strathclyde University and a resident of the city for the past two decades, said in an interview. “It’s big, and it has a social profile that’s more favorable for the ‘yes’ side.”

    ‘Glasgow, which including suburbs makes up about 20 percent of Scotland’s 5.3 million population, has more weight than anywhere else on the constitutional changes that could force the U.K.’s breakup after more than 300 years.’

    Bloomberg

  115. Meta permalink
    August 17, 2014 2:01 pm

    (“The question is where do you stop.”

    Sir Tony alone knows the extent of the estoppel, mayhaps: Aussies Reject Authority To Adopt Home Rule.)

  116. armchair opionator permalink
    August 17, 2014 3:20 pm

    It’s a bit like John Howard plugging for his mate dubya in the us elections.
    What was it he said? Something that us commentators told him to but out and “who does he think he is”
    Seems to be a conservative trait – must keep the establishment as is for the gentrified – what, tally ho gents, every man to the armoury!

  117. August 17, 2014 3:40 pm

    “• It is seen as an outpost of England

    Maybe by teh English, but certainly not by The Scots.

  118. armchair opionator permalink
    August 17, 2014 3:54 pm

    It was some kind of slur on Obama and if they voted for him it was good for the terrorists. When you think about it, it was extremely offensive. Abbott is doing the same barracking and offence producing as Howard. Who really do they think they are?
    Suckholes!

  119. Neil of Sydney permalink
    August 17, 2014 4:08 pm

    AO

    Abbott went too far but he is not the only person to comment on the topic. Hillary and Obama have both commented on the topic but did not go as far as Abbott.

    Not only Spain with Catalonia but Canada with Quebec and other countries have separatist regions. The question is what if every body wants independence? Where do you stop?

  120. TB Queensland permalink
    August 17, 2014 4:12 pm

    Senator Bernardi said he had received hundreds of emails from Liberal Party members who were disappointed the government had decided to dump proposed changes without consultation.

    Some long-standing members had even quit the party, he said, and he didn’t want further erosion of support as the government struggled to push budget measures through the Senate.

    Senator Bernardi said it was disappointing a small group of Australians could “dictate and determine” what was in the national interest.
    “We’ve got to manage for mainstream Australia, not for particular groups within it,” he said

    “hundreds” … ?

    I’m convinced this bloke actually does live under a rock …

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Maybe by teh English, but certainly not by The Scots.

    Nah, even the Poms don’t, Jummy! 😉

    The UK has been united for how long now?

    I suspect that the pragmatic (and conservative – true sense not political) Scots will vote NO … and I’m not sure it would make much difference anyway … there is a lot of personal political power in play over this Referendum … and the “outpost” angst is so 19th Century anyway …

  121. August 17, 2014 4:14 pm

    “The question is what if every body wants independence? Where do you stop?”

    I know Neil.

    It’s a bit like equal rights. If we give them to gays and lesbians pretty soon everyone will want them.

    It’s s slippery slope.

  122. TB Queensland permalink
    August 17, 2014 4:19 pm

    Where do you stop?

    Where do you start?

    Approximately 3,000,000 people live in the Basque Country.

    Basque people have managed to preserve their own identifying characteristics such as their own culture and language throughout the centuries and today a large part of the population shares a collective consciousness and a desire to be self-governed, either with further political autonomy or full independence. Over the centuries, the Basque Country has maintained various levels of political self-governance under different Spanish political frameworks. Nowadays, Euskadi enjoys the highest level of self-governance of any nonstate entity within the European Union.[21] However, tensions about the type of relationship the Basque territories should maintain with the Spanish authorities have existed since the origins of the Spanish state and in many cases have fuelled military confrontation, such as the Carlist Wars and the Spanish Civil War.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_conflict

  123. armchair opionator permalink
    August 17, 2014 4:21 pm

    “…The question is what if every body wants independence? Where do you stop?…”

    You don’t

    Freeeeeeeedooommm!

  124. TB Queensland permalink
    August 17, 2014 4:21 pm

    It’s a bit like equal rights. If we give them to gays and lesbians pretty soon everyone will want them.

    Mmmmm … and its not going to happen here in the next two years at least … Cory’ll take care of that …

    Is there any “noice” people in the LNP?

  125. TB Queensland permalink
    August 17, 2014 4:24 pm

    Where do you stop?
    It’s a bit like equal rights.

    Where do you start?

    You don’t

    Chuckle … same song sheet I see … harmony is good … 🙂

  126. armchair opionator permalink
    August 17, 2014 4:26 pm

    Re Bernard and the bigots.

    Since when does a redneck minority of Australians decide we can all be bigots?
    They might be a majority in the bigot party but not in the aussie population.

  127. TB Queensland permalink
    August 17, 2014 4:28 pm

    Yeah, my point exactly, KL …

  128. egg permalink
    August 17, 2014 4:35 pm

    ‘Freeeeeeeedooommm!’

    ‘Scotland’s energy minister will oppose moves to remove the right of householders to object to fracking companies drilling beneath their homes.

    ‘The UK government is consulting on plans which would make it easier for firms to drill under residential areas.

    ‘Companies would be given automatic access rights, but only for drilling at a depth of more than 1,000ft (300m).

    ‘Fergus Ewing told BBC Scotland any decision should be taken at Holyrood, rather than Westminster.’

  129. armchair opionator permalink
    August 17, 2014 5:12 pm

    Bernard is just doing what he always does – putting the extreme right teabag view (which his ‘think tank’ groups and corporate backers pay him to do).
    The IPA will keep pushing the bolt law and Cory is their paid messenger/agitator.

    They hope to change public opinion on the issue expect an IPA storm in all media!

  130. armchair opionator permalink
    August 17, 2014 5:29 pm

    Cory’s received hundreds of emails from the IPA!

  131. Neil of Sydney permalink
    August 17, 2014 5:38 pm

    It would be anarchy if everybody on this planet who wanted independence got it. But maybe that is what leftists/socialists/ALP supporters want.

  132. armchair opionator permalink
    August 17, 2014 6:23 pm

    Cory also says some lib party members have quit!

    So what? That’s no reason to have a bad law which makes racism acceptable.

    Perhaps the party is better off without those people.

    Does he think the country should be held hostage to liberal party shenanigans?

  133. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    August 17, 2014 6:28 pm

    ”It would be anarchy if everybody on this planet who wanted independence got it.

    Scotland is already a separate country, it isn’t simply a local government or a state. They have a range of judicial, legal and political institutions that are already quite different from England.

    Scotland regularly votes for parties of a different complexion to England & Wales. I think it is entirely understandable that they’d seek to represent their own interests in the EU, or the Commonwealth, or the UN, or anywhere else.

    If Scots are inclined to secede from the UK, then good for them. They’ll remain part of the EU, they will retain the pound, they will even retain the monarchy (at least for the time being), but they will run their own country.

  134. August 17, 2014 6:29 pm

    Scotland has always been is already a separate country.

    #Justsayin’

  135. TB Queensland permalink
    August 17, 2014 6:31 pm

    It would be anarchy if everybody on this planet who wanted independence got it.

    Oh, dear … explains a lot …

    What was that old B&W film depicting workers shuffling in and out?

  136. TB Queensland permalink
    August 17, 2014 6:33 pm

    Scotland has always been is already a separate country.

    Aye, laddie!

    Jus’ lyke Yorksha!

    Us Northmun stick together!

  137. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    August 17, 2014 6:39 pm

    I don’t think so.

    Yorkshire is a local government area.

  138. Neil of Sydney permalink
    August 17, 2014 7:15 pm

    Apparently England and Scotland were never great friends. I was surprised to learn that Scotland was allied with France against England for many years.

    But Independence may not be as great as they think.

    Your logic would also apply to Quebec. Even more so since they speak a different language to the rest of Canada.

  139. August 17, 2014 7:54 pm

    I can tell you for a fact after spending two months in Scotland… They fucking hate poms.
    It goes back centuries…

    The supositary of wisdom considers Enema’s of freedom and justice in Scotland taking back its already well established cultural independence from the fucking dirty unwashed pommies?

    Fuck me..what a national disgrace.. lady’s dames… what the fuck is next…???
    Free range Abbott with verbal diarrhea is a dangerously imbecilic fucktard.. I’ve had infections with a higher mental capacity than the fiberal fearless leader…

    I hope all you fucking wing nutters are happy you voted for this crazy ass wipe

    Corgi B Nasty… sigh… Another complete ass trumpet wingnut..heres what I think of that cunt.

    The left and the ALP want Anancy because colonised countries want their land back…
    Do us a favor squeal next time you are tossing off to a photo of Abbott in his Speedos or Johnny Howard Bowling do it Michael Hutchence style will ya… 🙄

  140. August 17, 2014 8:20 pm

    Everyone can all go get fucked.

  141. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    August 17, 2014 8:40 pm

    Scots generally have a grumpy demeanour, and often split syllables with ‘f**king’. C**t is a synonym for ‘friend’ or ‘person’

  142. August 17, 2014 9:58 pm

    Everyone can all go get fucked.

    I’d really like to say i’m sorry for using such profanity but it would be about as sincere as Joes apology.

    I will apologise to my pommie mates…

    Just to stay positive is hard when we have an idiot for a PM leading a government of what can only be described as socially disconnected, low vision, vindictive teabag toffs.

    Every Week the bar just gets lower which would be funny if they weren’t rogering the whole country without so much as a tap on the shoulder..

    What can I say? for a government of no surprises they are the all surprise booby prize.

  143. August 17, 2014 10:17 pm

    Striking Similarity

  144. Meta permalink
    August 18, 2014 1:16 am

    (Greetings from the post-national World of Verdantium, fellow Earthian Neil.

    Some Verdants, well, me actually, at least for present discussion’s sake, aren’t entirely convinced that artificial nations and/or illusions of geo-territorial independence on a shared planet of polyplex interrelationship are a tenable or mature, or even necessarily a naturally desirable, form of (social) existence and/or form of (macro-social) governance for the 21st Century and beyond.

    Apparently, your current national Leader, like your good self, also shares a developing belief in an emergent (re)order(ing) of World Governance of some kind, in full or in part, and also is often keen to express his considered views on all sorts of locally, regionally, and globally interesting matters from his Seat in Canberra, Australia.

    Now, some might dub that kind of local-global par-participatory par-democractic par-performance, that kind of proactive-reactive world citizenship, a species of anarchy, and perhaps it is, if it’s occurring on a purely ad hoc and/or retrograde basis; but it partially tells me that some Australians are almost ready for the next step(s).

    What do you think?)

  145. Meta permalink
    August 18, 2014 5:34 am

    (Speaking of striking similarities, “”The last thing we want is terrorism tourism on the taxpayer,” he told reporters in Lithgow, NSW.”)

  146. Meta permalink
    August 18, 2014 5:55 am

    (Which raises a vaguely on-topic quaere: If the poorest don’t have cars or don’t drive very far, maybe they do ride bikes; although, if they’re riding bikes on public roads and avoiding related taxation measures, wouldn’t that then make them free-riders or worse?)

  147. Meta permalink
    August 18, 2014 6:00 am

    (And take tandem, to fix the broken link*.

    Which raises a vaguely on-topic quaere: If the poorest don’t have cars or don’t drive very far, maybe they do ride* bikes; although, if they’re riding bikes on public roads and avoiding related taxation measures, wouldn’t that then make them free-riders or worse?)

  148. Meta permalink
    August 18, 2014 6:52 am

    (Andrew Robb MIA MP gets it, and the need to take swift and certain action to ensure Australia’s workable Direct Action Policy is in place ASAP to address risks already highlighted by the OECD: Senate jam a sovereign risk, says Andrew Robb.

    And it’s absolutely true; when it comes to gold standards in liberal democratic jamming enterprises, there’s almost no managerialist point in getting stuck in protracted negotiations about the Fore Nations demergering with Thistlethrall for want of a caddie of artificial sweeteners and bracing all-natural pectins, if doing so might affect the Sterling standard already being achieved.)

  149. egg permalink
    August 18, 2014 8:03 am

    ‘C**t is a synonym for ‘friend’ or ‘person’

    That’s pretty funny ToM.

  150. Tom R permalink
    August 18, 2014 8:16 am

    Hillary and Obama have both commented on the topic but did not go as far as Abbott.

    Which could be re-phrased as, “Hillary and Obama have both commented on the topic but did not say mind boggingly stupid shit”? 😯

    Freeeeeeeedooommm!

    too right AO

    Is it right to believe
    In the need to be free
    It’s a time when you die
    And without asking why
    Can’t you see what they do
    They are grinding things down
    They are taking our land
    That belongs to the clans

    Not alone with a dream
    Just a want to be free
    With a need to belong
    I am a clansman
    Freedom

  151. Tom R permalink
    August 18, 2014 8:19 am

    Does this mean that Scottish descendants on pensions will have funds frozen as “tewawists”?

  152. TB Queensland permalink
    August 18, 2014 8:34 am

    Yorkshire is a local government area.

    History will tell you that a Yorkshireman hasn’t got much time for them down “south” either …

    And BTW Yorkshire is a county covered in local government areas … I suppose you meant it wasn’t a country like … say … Scotland … 🙂

  153. Tom R permalink
    August 18, 2014 8:53 am

    More money for the power companies, and we all pay for it. This, on the end of us already paying way too much because the power companies lied to us about the need for infrastructure, which it turned out they didn’t need, and knew at the time. Which is why we need MORE red tape, not less.

    Weaker RET would transfer $10b to big power firms, study finds

    http://www.theage.com.au/environment/climate-change/weaker-ret-would-transfer-10b-to-big-power-firms-study-finds-20140817-1051mo.html

  154. egg permalink
    August 18, 2014 9:02 am

    Lower Middle Class

    ‘Britain’s problem families are costing taxpayers a whopping £30billion a year, it was claimed today.

    ‘The dysfunctional behaviour of half a million households in the country is resulting in a major drain on public resources, with the size of our ‘underclass’ four times larger than first thought.

    ‘Ministers have demanded an end to the ‘it’s not my fault’ culture which has allowed up to 120,000 problem families to avoid taking responsibility for their own lives.’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2727090/Britains-underclass-Half-million-problem-families-cost-taxpayer-30BILLION-year.html#ixzz3Ah2VnJno
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

  155. August 18, 2014 9:18 am

    “I can tell you for a fact after spending two months in Scotland… They fucking hate poms. It goes back centuries…”

    This is true. Although we do get along well with people from some areas like Yorkshire, Birmingham and Liverpool.

    The closer you get to London the more intense the hatred becomes.

  156. August 18, 2014 9:24 am

    ‘C**t is a synonym for ‘friend’ or ‘person’

    😆

  157. Tom R permalink
    August 18, 2014 9:33 am

    ‘C**t is a synonym for ‘friend’ or ‘person’

    That could explain why tabot thinks he is everyone’s bestie?

  158. Neil of Sydney permalink
    August 18, 2014 10:58 am

    “The closer you get to London the more intense the hatred becomes.”

    Does anybody like anybody on this planet?

  159. Tom R permalink
    August 18, 2014 11:02 am

    😯

  160. August 18, 2014 11:06 am

    Actually Scots and Anglo Aussie’s have a lot in common.

    Same sense of ironic humor with ability to laugh at themselves and others misfortune.
    Keen desire for fried food, carbohydrates and beer,
    Deep suspicion of vegetarians
    Love of music
    Love of violence
    Love of drugs
    Contempt for born to rule poncers

    and now an intense hatred of Tony foook’en Abooot 🙂

  161. August 18, 2014 11:11 am

    Does anybody like anybody on this planet?

    Ironic coming from an Olympic class broad brush hater…

    Of course…there is plenty we like in spades.. It’s just you we hate fucktard, as most in here have good taste

  162. Neil of Sydney permalink
    August 18, 2014 11:34 am

    One problem with Scottish independence is the problems it could cause other countries as i mentioned before.

    Quebec has a separatist movement. They speak French and have a different legal system to the rest of Canada. And it is huge in size and could easily be an independent country. An independent Quebec would split Canada into 2 making it almost impossible for the English speaking provinces to form a Union. They would most probably join up with the USA.

    An independent Scotland would encourage other parts of the world to seek independence.

  163. egg permalink
    August 18, 2014 11:36 am

    ‘Contempt for born to rule poncers’

    Hadrian’s Wall is a typical example of their fierce independence.

  164. egg permalink
    August 18, 2014 11:41 am

    ‘An independent Scotland would encourage other parts of the world to seek independence.’

    This is not a bad thing, the end of empires and nation states. How do you see things 20 years from now?

  165. TB Queensland permalink
    August 18, 2014 11:44 am

    Ironic coming from an Olympic class broad brush hater…

    Yeah, I thought that, RP … 🙄

    The closer you get to London the more intense the hatred becomes.

    Yep, its a bit like trying to explain the Oz/Kiwi relationship to a Septic Tank …

    One problem with Scottish independence …

    What? “our” – is that the royal “our” or you and Tony “our”? … and I for one don’t have a “problem” … you seem to have a few … along with “your” fearless leader …

    Hadrian’s Wall is a typical example of their fierce independence.

    Obviously not heard of Boadicea … or Vercingetorix over the channel …

  166. Meta permalink
    August 18, 2014 11:47 am

    (*Musical interlude*)

  167. TB Queensland permalink
    August 18, 2014 11:48 am

    The Holiday is over for Sir Noddy Newman & The Nitwits …

    Questions were put to voters on what factors in Mr Newman’s performance caused the drop in support for the LNP; 78 per cent said he was arrogant, 66 per cent said he didn’t understand the consequences of his decisions, and 37 per cent said he was not up to the job.
    Asked about the LNP plan to sell some state-owned assets if it wins the next election, 75 per cent of voters opposed the move, 18 per cent were in favour, and seven per cent were uncommitted.

    http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/newman-losing-grip-as-preferred-premier/story-e6frfku9-1227027697069

    Abbot & The Acolytes are slipping in the charts too …

    What I always find annoying/amusing is that it takes so many people, so long, to realise how arrogant and incompetent these pollies are …

  168. Neil of Sydney permalink
    August 18, 2014 11:51 am

    “and I for one don’t have a “problem

    That is because you are stupid.

    What if it encourages the breakup of Canada? Scottish independence could encourage the destabilisation of some nation-states.

  169. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    August 18, 2014 11:55 am

    Just on a different subject…

    Conde Nast Traveler magazine’s annual Readers’ Choice Survey says it was “no surprise readers adore Melbourne,” calling it Australia’s “capital of cool.”

    That’s hardly news to those of us who live here and make it so cool.

    However, I think France seems to get marked down as “unfriendly” on reputation, rather than reality. The Riviera is a great place for a holiday, accommodation is less expensive than places like the Gold Coast or Cairns, the food is great and it is interesting. It just takes a little longer to travel there. People always seem pleasant enough.

    World’s friendliest cities according to Conde Nast Traveler
    1. (tie) Melbourne, Australia and Auckland, New Zealand
    3. Victoria, BC, Canada
    4. Charleston, South Carolina
    5 (tie) Sydney, Australia and Dublin, Ireland
    7. Siem Reap, Cambodia
    8. Cape Town, South Africa
    9 (tie) Seville, Spain and Savannah, Georgia
    11. Budapest, Hungary

    World’s unfriendliest cities
    1. Johannesburg, South Africa
    2. Cannes, France
    3. Moscow, Russia
    4. Paris, France
    5. Marseilles, France
    6. Beijing, China
    7. Frankfurt, Germany
    8. Milan, Italy
    9. Monte Carlo, Monaco
    10. Nassau, Bahamas

    http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/conde-nast-traveler-magazine-names-worlds-friendliest-and-unfriendliest-cities/story-e6frfq80-1227027851648

  170. Tom R permalink
    August 18, 2014 11:57 am

    An independent Scotland would encourage other parts of the world to seek independence.

    Where will it all end?

  171. Splatterbottom permalink
    August 18, 2014 12:06 pm

    About time Tasmania was given its independence. Then they will have to stop bludging on the rest of the country. Ship all the greenies down there and let them enjoy the stone age lifestyle which will emerge after they finish killing off their industries.

  172. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 18, 2014 12:06 pm

    Amanda vanstone is having a big sook in defence of ‘poor joe’ today, apparently it’s all the media and senate’s fault. I also heard tony abbott saying the govt has to change plans to deal with the senate they inherited. They must have very short memories, remember when Gillard was the worst person in the world for dealing with the senate and blaming the media for their ongoing attacks?

    Just to remind you, here’s shenanigans from may 2012
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/gillard-trapped-in-a-blame-game/story-fn59niix-1226360646770

    …Holding the media responsible for the failure of the public to listen or give credit to what a government is achieving is the last resort of a failing leader who can’t be seen to be admitting that voters have simply stopped listening to the government…

    Remember the deliberate and outright sexism and ferocious attacks upon gillard, the incitement that abbott created? It was OK for a nation to abuse a female PM.

    now that he’s PM, it’s all about giving respect and good behaviour as they have their personal bodyguards protect them from the consequences of their own policies.

    march, 2013

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-13/abbott-blamed-for-culture-of-political-abuse/4569660

    …Earlier Labor frontbencher Tanya Plibersek accused Mr Abbott of creating a culture of personal abuse and vilification, after protesters yelled insults at Prime Minister Julia Gillard during yesterday’s Question Time…
    …”If you go out and create that culture, it’s unsurprising that people will then go out and reflect and mimic that culture.”
    Yesterday parliament was disrupted twice by members of the public shouting at Julia Gillard, including calling her “Ju-Liar”…

    I don’t forget, I maintain the rage.

    http://www.smh.com.au/comment/blame-the-media-not-joe-hockey-20140815-104ms8.html#ixzz3AhehzBZS

    …Much of the difficulties Joe faces are a consequence of the Senate with which he has to deal. We elected some people who in their wildest dreams never expected to get elected. We didn’t expect it either. They had no coherent set of principles that would guide their decision making. These senators seem very much focused on simple political posturing and bargaining…

  173. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 18, 2014 12:07 pm

  174. Neil of Sydney permalink
    August 18, 2014 12:10 pm

    “Where will it all end?”

    Exactly. Quebec would have more right than Scotland to be an independent nation. Quebecs language and legal system is different to the rest of Canada. Furthermore i think they got there way before the English.

    Quebec independence would split Canada in 2 parts making it impossible for Canada to exist.

  175. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    August 18, 2014 12:12 pm

    Quebec has a significant independence movement largely because the French language has resulted in economic disadvantage.

    Quebec declined the opportunity to separate from Canada, which is fine. If they choose to separate in the future, good for them.
    ————
    With regard to Scotland, with the EU, and continuing use of the pound, what’s actually the point of them remaining in the UK?

  176. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 18, 2014 12:13 pm

    true to form, when in trouble, the libs rush to division and hate. Abbott is recreating Howard’s tampa moment to get back the votes, expect more villifying of minorities and asylum seekers, terrorism everywhere you look. Wonder if the fridge magnet will make a comeback? Oh no, that didn’t work did it, because we had a campaign to return them to sender, guess it’ll just be jumping at shadows and national fear!

  177. August 18, 2014 12:15 pm

    “That’s hardly news to those of us who live here and make it so cool.”

    ToM speaks the truth.

  178. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    August 18, 2014 12:16 pm

    Neil, there are a dozen countries that successfully exist despite being separated by the land mass of another. You don’t need to look further than USA & Alaska.

  179. August 18, 2014 12:18 pm

    “Quebec independence would split Canada in 2 parts making it impossible for Canada to exist.”

    What, you mean it would just disappear, like Whyalla….??

  180. egg permalink
    August 18, 2014 12:23 pm

    ‘Obviously not heard of Boadicea …’

    Remember seeing a doco on her, here is a refresher for Neil.

    ‘(d. AD 60 or 61) was queen of the British Iceni tribe, a Celtic tribe who led an uprising against the occupying forces of the Roman Empire.’

  181. TB Queensland permalink
    August 18, 2014 12:29 pm

    That is because you are stupid.

    Well thank you ..

  182. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 18, 2014 12:39 pm

    guess this is how debruyn has ensured the shoppies don’t represent their members views.

    didn’t abbott say that he wanted to be a PM for aboriginal affairs? I think in abbott doublespeak, it means the opposite, like being the minister for women!

    We had the australian attacking the APC recently and threatening to leave and start their own council [which I’m sure would be totally sympathetic and accepting of all their fabrications]

    http://www.presscouncil.org.au/uploads/52321/ufiles/Statement_from_the_Executive_Director_18_August_2014.pdf

    Statement from the Executive Director

    …The article also proceeded on the incorrect basis that the revised Principles impose an absolute obligation to ensure accuracy. But, like the previous Principles, they require only that “reasonable steps” be taken in this regard. The oversight meant that most of the article’s subsequent argument about facts in opinion pieces was irrelevant.

    The article seemed to be unaware that the Council’s long-standing practice has been to require factual accuracy in opinion pieces. It was also unaware that the revised Principle about distinguishing between fact and opinion was a relaxation of the previous Principle, not a creation of a requirement where none existed previously…

    …Breaches of confidentiality:
    Both The Weekend Australian and The Australian concede they have breached agreed obligations to maintain confidentiality of aspects of the Council’s complaint processes. Repeated breaches of these obligations, and misrepresentations of the Council’s work, can severely compromise its credibility as a preferable alternative to a statutory regulator, which currently applies to radio and television.

  183. TB Queensland permalink
    August 18, 2014 12:40 pm

    Have you noticed how countries and collections of countries expand and contract like businesses …

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-15/bhp-billiton-split-to-return-company-to-bhp-of-old/5674324

    And families, I suppose …

    The only thing that never changes is change itself … but only us stupids realise that …

  184. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 18, 2014 12:51 pm

    What, you mean it would just disappear, like Whyalla….??

    i think he means canada, the UK and the entire world will cease to exist, fortress western colonial nations, defender of ‘our values’ will be destroyed forever. Independence means independence very scary thought for pantswetting types. Anarchy = independent nations, what if the mooslims or russia or china takeover the world because the authority of the west anarchy 😯 has gone to ruin? Won’t be able to sleep for worrying about WHAT WILL HAPPEN!

  185. August 18, 2014 12:53 pm

    @jeanybean1966 Woot, Woot! Your tweet made the Pedestrian Daily. pic.twitter.com/jmcqHUeoTV— Rick Hoyle – Mills (@RickHM) August 18, 2014

  186. August 18, 2014 1:00 pm

    The British colonial empire has long since crumbled just as the French, Roman, Ottoman, Spanish… has… Now its Oligarki corporate globalisation 🙄

    Hey Squeal one question…
    Have you ever been to Quebec or Scotland?

  187. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 18, 2014 1:03 pm

    peter martin always seems so sensible, pointing out facts vs rhetoric and employer ‘opinion’.

    Penalty rates: Fair pay or job killer?
    http://www.theage.com.au/national/penalty-rates-fair-pay-or-job-killer-20140815-1046sz.html

    Can employers afford them?
    Celebrity chef George Calombaris is one of many restaurateurs who say penalty rates are making their businesses uneconomic, but the restaurant industry keeps growing. Over the past five years spending at restaurants and cafes has climbed at twice the rate of spending in supermarkets.
    Employment in the restaurant industry climbed 9 per cent during five years in which overall employment climbed 7.5 per cent.
    And restaurants make money. When the Bureau of Statistics examined the accommodation and food service industry it found gross operating profits amounted to 11 per cent of total sales, almost twice that of retail industry (6 per cent) and a good deal more than the construction (8 per cent) and manufacturing (7 per cent).
    The industry is twice as profitable as it was 15 years ago…

  188. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 18, 2014 1:06 pm

    Have you ever been to Quebec or Scotland?

    Too scared to get on a plane [terrorists and crashes] WHAT WILL HAPPEN?
    Best to stay safe under the bed!

  189. Meta permalink
    August 18, 2014 1:07 pm

    (Someone really should inform Mark Steyn that the voter-aged parents of children christened in Glasgow with some permutation of Muhammed for a given name are now the greatest threat to Canada’s existence, I guess.)

  190. Tom R permalink
    August 18, 2014 1:11 pm

    lol ao

    Holding the media responsible for the failure of the public to listen or give credit to what a government is achieving is the last resort of a failing leader

    The difference here was, Gillard wasn’t blaming the media for anything (just cos shanana says it don’t make it so), she was just trying to get legislation through that would compel them to adhere to rules the same as the broadcast media operate under. She even offered advice, “don’t write crap”. They of course ignored that advice, and look where they are now..

    vanstone on the other hand is doing hockeys crying for him, and directly blaming the media for a crap budget (ok, hockeys had his own cry too). Well, the media can take some blame, perhaps they should have asked these dicks BEFORE the last election what their true plan was, but they didn’t care, too busy with “colour and movement”

  191. Walrus permalink
    August 18, 2014 1:11 pm

    “When the Bureau of Statistics examined the accommodation and food service industry it found gross operating profits amounted to 11 per cent of total sales,”

    Yeah and that includes Pubs and Clubs poker machine profits plus the major city hotels.

    Smaller operations like coffee shops and takeaways seem to predominantly employ family members these days.

    At least around my area they do.

  192. egg permalink
    August 18, 2014 1:12 pm

    ‘Have you noticed how countries and collections of countries expand and contract like businesses …’

    It might be natural phenomenon.

  193. Walrus permalink
    August 18, 2014 1:41 pm

    Enter your comment here…
    I’d imagine Scotland benefits quite a bit from North Sea oil directly and indirectly so probably not wise to seperate. Although the only good thing about Scotland is the pet cemetery atop Edinburgh Castle.

    Besides everything north of the M25 around London is crap and largely inhabited by inbreeds of all shapes and sizes whose intelligence has been slowly and surely diluted of centuries of inter marriage and incestuous relationsI’d imagine Scotland benefits quite a bit from North Sea oil directly and indirectly so probably not wise to seperate. Although the only good thing about Scotland is the pet cemetery atop Edinburgh Castle.

    Besides everything north of the M25 around London is crap and largely inhabited by inbreeds of all shapes and sizes whose intelligence has been slowly and surely diluted of centuries of inter marriage and other incestuous relationships.

    Ireland North and South is much nicer. France is much nicer. Italy is much nicer, Spain is much nicer, Czech Republic is much nicer, Germany is much nicer, Austria is much nicer.

    Fucking Egypt is friendlier

  194. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 18, 2014 1:55 pm

    Smaller operations like coffee shops and takeaways seem to predominantly employ family members these days.

    I hope they are paying them properly, paying penalties for weekends etc, otherwise they are just exploiting their own family for personal profit. it’s not as if the industry pays much anyway $17.00/hr. minimum wage.

    Perhaps if they have to pay wages they prefer to give it to their own family members [better than just paying them an allowance] or perhaps they are forced to work without any wage at all, work for their food and keep at home. Perhaps they force them to help the business out by avoiding paying penalties. It’s nothing to do with penalties though, it’s personal greed, if they can’t pay proper wages then they shouldn’t be in business in any case. There will always be people who will exploit and use others for personal gain.

    What the article doesn’t mention is the large number of small business who are not paying anywhere near the minimum wage, the exploitation of foreign students and those on 457 visas. Where are the statutory bodies that are supposed to monitor and prevent this?

  195. egg permalink
    August 18, 2014 2:06 pm

    ‘…or perhaps they are forced to work without any wage at all, work for their food and keep at home.’

    Back in the old country its how things are done.

  196. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 18, 2014 2:12 pm

    BTW, what was Abbott doing in London last week? was there a reason for the trip other than being away so he couldn’t participate in the pollie pedal [and have his expenses scrutinised] or distance himself from hockey?

    The Abbott Gaffernment

    http://www.independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/the-abbott-gaffernment,6786

  197. August 18, 2014 2:13 pm

    The Hebrides of Scotland and the far North are so beautiful, one of the friendliest and nicest places I have ever been.

  198. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    August 18, 2014 2:40 pm

    I was not far from moving to Scotland permanently, I’d been there quite regularly for a few years and enjoyed it.

    The only reason I didn’t… she dumped me.

  199. Walrus permalink
    August 18, 2014 3:54 pm

    “I hope they are paying them properly, paying penalties for weekends etc,”

    LOL…………….Oh………..as if

    You’d need an army of public servants to police that sort of thing. And of course you’d need to pay them at double or triple time to work on Sundays……..LOL

    A small non family business is always at a disadvantage to a small family business.

    A business in my area has now shut all 4 of his Sydney coffee shops ( 22 FT and PT staff sacked) and moved his entire business to the USA where he can start afresh due to having a Canadian wife (apparently Canadians have some sort of pro business on citizen thing with the Yanks unlike Oz).

    He was fed up with the ever increasing costs of labour and electricity

  200. TB Queensland permalink
    August 18, 2014 4:06 pm

    It might be natural phenomenon.

    Oh! Well spotted*, egg … shakes head …

    * intended … 🙂

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Besides everything north of the M25 around London is crap and largely inhabited by inbreeds of all shapes and sizes whose intelligence has been slowly and surely diluted of centuries of inter marriage and incestuous relationsI’d imagine Scotland benefits quite a bit from North Sea oil directly and indirectly so probably not wise to seperate. Although the only good thing about Scotland is the pet cemetery atop Edinburgh Castle.

    Besides everything north of the M25 around London is crap and largely inhabited by inbreeds of all shapes and sizes whose intelligence has been slowly and surely diluted of centuries of inter marriage and other incestuous relationships.

    Ireland North and South is much nicer. France is much nicer. Italy is much nicer, Spain is much nicer, Czech Republic is much nicer, Germany is much nicer, Austria is much nicer.

    Fucking Egypt is friendlier

    ROFLMAO! Says the bloke with two heads … Says the bloke with two heads !

    Fucking Egypt is friendlier 😯 Yeah????

  201. TB Queensland permalink
    August 18, 2014 4:12 pm

    I hope they are paying them properly, paying penalties for weekends etc,

    Doesn’t apply to family members, KL … nor does the age limit on children working in afamily business (ie 15).

    And I agree with this sentiment too ..

    It’s nothing to do with penalties though, it’s personal greed, if they can’t pay proper wages then they shouldn’t be in business in any case. There will always be people who will exploit and use others for personal gain.

    What we found when we ran our own business is that other people might be good at their “job” but incompetent (in the literal sense) business managers/employers …

  202. August 18, 2014 4:23 pm

    BREAKING: Abbott blames Labor for making bribery illegal… #ICAC

  203. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 18, 2014 4:35 pm

    BREAKING: Abbott blames Labor for making bribery illegal… #ICAC

    hahahaha, of course he does! ICAC must be getting close to the federal libs and abbott.
    Bribery and corruption throughout all institutions should always be legal in the minds of the born-to-rule, it’s how they roll, how else will they maintain power and control?

  204. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 18, 2014 4:38 pm

    Icac: Tony Abbott says ‘problem’ was Labor banning developer donations:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/18/icac-tony-abbott-says-problem-was-labor-banning-developer-donations?CMP=soc_567

  205. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 18, 2014 4:54 pm

    Shades of the corporocracy in the US, corporations are people and can vote, in this case twice. Have we no hope of escaping the rot?
    [looking at the photo with the article, independent MP Alex Greenwich is a very, very handsome man, I could easily vote for him!]

    http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/icac-needs-to-investigate-sydney-city-council-voting-bill-greenwich-20140817-105367.html

    …In his letter to the ICAC on Sunday Independent MP Alex Greenwich links the drafting of the legislation to evidence given in February to the ICAC by former Liberal state energy minister Chris Hartcher…

  206. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 18, 2014 4:58 pm

  207. Walrus permalink
    August 18, 2014 4:58 pm

    “Abbott blames Labor for making bribery illegal”

    Exactly where did he say that ?????????????????????

    It’s OK………………I already know the answer.

    He didn’t say it

  208. Walrus permalink
    August 18, 2014 5:04 pm

    “Doesn’t apply to family members, KL …”

    Rubbish………………..of course the Award system applies. The only exception would be if they were also a part owner

  209. TB Queensland permalink
    August 18, 2014 5:27 pm

    Rubbish………………..of course the Award system applies. The only exception would be if they were also a part owner

    Or parents, or children … any immediate family really … define employee under those circumstances?

    I’d like to see you try and prosecute …

    … family have always avoided legal status of employee, unless there is a written contract …

  210. Walrus permalink
    August 18, 2014 5:44 pm

    “… family have always avoided legal status of employee, unless there is a written contract …”
    Really ?
    How about a link then

    So you reckon “always” ay………………….how about this from 2007.

    “At the same time, if any family member is employed and is not a part-owner in the business, then they are subject to the same rules and regulations as other employees, including Awards and superannuation etc. “

    http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/smallbusiness/managingpeople/8124040/what-to-consider-when-hiring-family-or-friends

    And as far as prosecution is concerned I didn’t say it would be easy to police.
    So I’ll just wait here for your link

  211. August 18, 2014 5:48 pm

    “I already know the answer.”

    Abbott on 2GB said: “The problem was that the former state Labor government, because of a predicament it found itself in, introduced laws banning donations from developers.”

  212. Walrus permalink
    August 18, 2014 5:52 pm

    “Abbott on 2GB said: ”

    Sorry you seem to have left out the part where he mentions “bribery”.

    I only got the “donations” bit

  213. August 18, 2014 6:04 pm

    I’m sorry, but if you can’t make the connection between ICAC finding Liberal MPs guilty of corruption ie bribery) and then Abbott blaming Labor, then you’re thicker than I thought.

  214. August 18, 2014 6:07 pm

    “I only got the “donations” bit”

    Hunter Valley MPs Tim Owen and Andrew Cornwall stepped down from parliament last week over revelations at the Independent Commission Against Corruption (Icac) they accepted money from property developer Jeff McCloy. Donations from property developers were illegal at the time.

    Does that make it clear enough for ya Wally….?

  215. Walrus permalink
    August 18, 2014 6:11 pm

    “ICAC finding Liberal MPs guilty of corruption ie bribery””

    But that’s not what you said is it ?

    Just more verballing to fit your total unhinging about having Abbott as PM

    Have the findings come out as you said ?

    Are we talking about possibly illegal donations then ?

    Now who did you say was thick ?

  216. Walrus permalink
    August 18, 2014 6:13 pm

    “”Does that make it clear enough for ya Wally….?””

    Yes it does thankyou…………………..Seems we are talking about illegal donations don’t it ?

  217. TB Queensland permalink
    August 18, 2014 6:19 pm

    And as far as prosecution is concerned I didn’t say it would be easy to police.
    So I’ll just wait here for your link

    I don’t need a link … I said unless there is a written contract … family help each out all the time … you can’t make it stick … the case would dropped … (and I know of two that were) …

    You need a complaint to begin with …

  218. Walrus permalink
    August 18, 2014 6:24 pm

    You said they were exempt.

    They clearly are not and you were clearly wrong.

  219. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 18, 2014 6:25 pm

    “… family have always avoided legal status of employee, unless there is a written contract …”
    Really ?

    yes, I did assume that a company has to pay award wages, no matter whether employing a family member, I also assume that the books are heavily doctored to make it look like they’ve been paid correctly – the money somehow ending up in the owner’s pocket! Just because they are family, doesn’t mean they, as an employee, should work for nothing.

    Have the findings come out as you said ?

    Well, there is no law against the Fibs [federal libs] receiving any donations, that’s the point and why there should be a federal ICAC.

    There would be a problem if it is shown that the developers and the fibs knew and were deliberately using the fibs to ‘wash’ the money, knowing they couldn’t legally donate in NSW – that’s how I see it anyway, and why abbott should be worried, because loughnane has already been mentioned and apparently there is an electorate that abbott was very closely involved with that has been suspect for bribes.

  220. TB Queensland permalink
    August 18, 2014 6:25 pm

    And another Link for you TB

    Aunt Sally links don’t count Walter … shit, you’re a tax consultant CPA* … LOL!

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    And hasn’t McLory fucked off!

    they accepted money from property developer Jeff McCloy. Donations from property developers were illegal at the time.

    Yeah he did …

    http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/newcastle-mayor-jeff-mccloy-quits-before-being-pushed-20140817-105299.html

    Not having a good day, hey, Wally!

  221. August 18, 2014 6:29 pm

    “Not having a good day, hey, Wally!”

    Clearly.

  222. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 18, 2014 6:35 pm

    ICAC probe inches closer to Abbott:
    http://www.afr.com/p/national/icac_probe_inches_closer_to_abbott_tlnRTpGLPgO4FzI08Ha5BO

    …Questions have emerged over Tony Abbott’s role in selecting Karen McNamara as Liberal candidate for the federal seat of Dobell despite doubts over her fund-raising claims.

    Mr Abbott was widely reported to be behind the decision by the NSW state executive on April 20, 2012 to appoint McNamara to replace problematic candidate Garry Whitaker. This was three months after ­senior Liberals received complaints of an unreported donation on the central coast and despite McNamara’s earlier claims of huge fund-raising which did not correspond with party records…

    As always, i feel abbott is just as guilty as the rest of them and has been doing dodgy fundraising for years. I bet he slimes his way out of anything sticking to him though, just as he did with pauline hanson’s jailing and the michael lawler//jackson/thomson thing. Plus other numerous cases like ashbygate. His pawprints are everywhere, but he’s protected well and he even gets his legal fees donated by lib party donors!

    It’s the catholic mafia at work!

  223. August 18, 2014 6:39 pm

    Exactly AO…

    How generous of taxpayers to fund his pollie pedal tours and book launch tours…

    I think Wally wees himself a little bit whenever someone says:

    “D’ya think I can claim this as a tax deduction?”

  224. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 18, 2014 6:41 pm

    😆

  225. TB Queensland permalink
    August 18, 2014 6:46 pm

    Yeah! That’s become another USA!

    http://www.news.com.au/world/ferguson-police-fire-tear-gas-at-protesters-as-autopsy-reveals-unarmed-teen-michael-brown-shot-at-least-six-times/story-fndir2ev-1227028096868

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Plus other numerous cases like ashbygate. His pawprints are everywhere, but he’s protected well and he even gets his legal fees donated by lib party donors!

    And don’t forget how he actually came to power … utegate … didn’t go well for Turnbull … and I have never believed MT had a clue what was happening! Does now!

    Whooo! Nearly missed this, KL …

    It’s the catholic mafia at work! As you know – I’m a believer!

  226. August 18, 2014 7:04 pm

    Excellent article and succinct article.
    It’s a strange position this government finds itself in: confused over its base; repaying its biggest supporters at News Corp and the IPA with an agenda that is harming it; and behaving as if it is back in the Howard years, only in place of Howard they have a leader with none of the popularity and few of the political tricks.

    http://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/2014/08/16/base-politics/1408111200#.U_G_wfmSx8F

  227. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 18, 2014 7:51 pm

    They can’t claim a mandate for anything, only that the voters wanted someone else. People heard the promises and then realised they were lies and since abbott did such a job on gillard re lies, he has died in a ditch with his own.

    the voters are unforgiving

  228. August 18, 2014 8:23 pm

    “How can we now claim a mandate for the paid parental leave scheme simply because it was an election policy?” said Cory.

    Well the same could be said for most of the shit this government is pulling. Very light on detail, steeped in heavy ideology, hardly consultive; the majority of which is “make up policy as you go” , The government of no surprises is the undisclosed polar opposite of what voters were sold which shows contempt for the people who elected them.

    You gotta hope that Benardi breaks the fiberal ranks and creates a tea party with his fruit cake mate David Flint.

  229. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 18, 2014 8:56 pm

    Wow, thanks for the link ricky, that was a devastating critique, but every word of it true.
    Basically reaffirms everything I have been thinking.

  230. August 18, 2014 9:16 pm

    You are most welcome AO.. great swag of writers over at Saturday, Sunday and Monthly. Quality journalism 🙂

  231. armchair opinionator permalink
    August 18, 2014 10:30 pm

    Quality journalism 🙂

    My word, I’ve even paid out money for a subscription! Good value 😉

  232. August 19, 2014 1:06 am

    (For Certain; most here noticed the Teabag-in-chief advising Scotlandia on their treacherous, freedom seeking independence initiative was playing right into the hands of the worlds terror-fear-ists.)

  233. Meta permalink
    August 19, 2014 1:50 am

    (Cookies, yum.)

  234. Neil of Sydney permalink
    August 19, 2014 7:09 am

    Well Morrison is slowly cleaning up the mess ALP/Greens created

    http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/asylum-seeker-children-to-be-released-20140819-3dx0z.html

    Hundreds of children held in immigration detention on the Australian mainland are to be released into the community.

    News Corp Australia reports that a federal government plan to halt the incarceration of asylum seeker children will involve their families, who were detained under the former Labor government, being allowed to settle in the community on bridging visas while their refugee applications are processed.”

  235. egg permalink
    August 19, 2014 7:17 am

    Bad news for green leftoids.

    ‘HUNDREDS of children held in immigration detention on the Australian mainland will be released into the community under a plan by the federal government to bring an end to child incarceration.

    ‘The Daily Telegraph has learned all children and their families who arrived and were detained under the former Labor government will be allowed to settle in the community on bridging visas while their refugee applications are processed.’

    Simon Benson / Daily Terror

  236. Meta permalink
    August 19, 2014 7:27 am

    (Yes, I can see Scott has been busy building bridges and constructing a “new policy” since the election. Well done, Scott; and well done, Professor Triggs.)

  237. Neil of Sydney permalink
    August 19, 2014 7:48 am

    “and well done, Professor Triggs.”

    Really? Triggs did nothing when the ALP was in power but only wakes from her slumber when the Coalition got elected.

    http://www.sevozdowski.com/2014-02-03-kids-in-detention-new-ahrc-inquiry/

    Today the Australian Human Rights Commission has announced the second inquiry into the human rights of children in immigration detention…………….Certainly the repetition of my inquiry is the highest form of flattery but timing is very odd. When the boats were arriving in large numbers and Labor was at its peak of cruelty towards the boat arrivals AHRC almost did not see the problem and the newly appointed Children Rights Commissioner was proclaiming that her jurisdiction is limited to domestic matters.

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