Who are these so-called “Muslim Radicals?”
Splatterbottom wrote the following comment, and I thought it would make a good starting point for a discussion thread…
We often hear mealy-mouthed morons bleating about the “tiny minority” of radicals among the Islamic community.
In fact it seems that the alleged minority is not so tiny, at least according to a significant chunk of the Islamic community, including those listed here who signed off on this statement:
We also reject government attempts to divide the Muslim community into ‘radicals’ and ‘moderates’ and to use the community for its agenda.
Dividing the Muslim community into ‘radicals’ and ‘moderates’ is the sort of sophistry we expect from cretinous leftists trying to explain why 90% of terror attacks in the world are carried out in the name of Islam.
But when it comes to the crunch it seems that that distinction is illusory.
theguttertrash.com 
This is on topic (I think) …
Egyptian Female Activist Poses Nude and Poops on ISIS Flag. Yes, Really. (Photo)
I hardly think the signatories are terrorists, they object to being demonised as terrorists by a fearmongering government looking to grab votes and introduce anti privacy legislation using them as an excuse and a bogeyman.
They rightly point out that there are plenty of Australian soldiers serving in foreign militaries and of course the israeli australian brotherhood who participate in terror attacks upon the palestinians in which our government is accepting and silent.
Abbott is being advised that even small cells can have devastating impacts. So they are using gentle coercion to bring the stupid young radical dog bothering muslims to their senses, before they ruin their lives.
Knobs like this I suspect
http://www.smh.com.au/world/rapper-identified-as-james-foleys-executioner-reports-20140824-107w1i.html?&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=social&eid=socialn:fac-14omn0583-optim-nnn:paid-25/06/2014-social_traffic-all-postprom-nnn-ebaby-o
Guess they are not part of Team Australia
http://www.independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/team-epic-failure,6801
Years ago, I used to do lots of adventure travel**, I managed to go to get through quite a bit of the Middle East unscathed, I am willing to make a few general observations.
• A few of the Middle Eastern countries seem to remain (culturally) in the middle ages.
• The lives of the people that live there seem full of superstition
• Retribution seems to be a major motivation.
• Overt displays of anger appear quite common.
• Culturally, women are second class citizens. Their rights appear to have gone backwards over the past couple of decades.
• Women travelling should expect plenty of jeering and leering.
…and I agree, these are generalisations, but at least they’re based on first hand observation.
If people volunteer to move to and live in Australia, I think it is reasonable that they have a predisposition to accept the existing traditions, institutions and culture of the place.
**these days, I still enjoy plenty of travel, but I’m well past adventure. I don’t think I’ll ever again go to a country that doesn’t allow easy access to alcohol.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/25/team-australia-only-if-its-for-all-of-us?CMP=twt_gu
“… But if “Team Australia” is meant to suggest something else, we are entitled to ask for an explanation. Manufacturing patriotism can sometimes do more to divide than to unite. Genuine civic pride comes from within; it is not something that others can command us to display…”
‘I think it is reasonable that they have a predisposition to accept the existing traditions, institutions and culture of the place.’
On that score most Australians would agree with you.
From Kitty’s link…
‘….there was never a suggestion, from any community, that retaining racial vilification laws was necessary for fighting domestic extremism.’
There was good reason for Abbott’s change of heart, with mass immigration and a possible watering down of multiculturalism, it was the politically correct decision.
If you look at what is happening in the UK and the problems they are having, then its clear Abbott has to nip social concerns in the bud or risk a revolt at the polls. Its important to look as if you are doing something, even if not much has really changed to warrant it.
“…• A few of the Middle Eastern countries seem to remain (culturally) in the middle ages…”
Lack of access to education, no separation of powers, religious rule as government and institutionalised sexism and oppression will do that.
When there is supreme male power that’s what happens.
There are fundy christians that would love to have a western ‘culture and values’ much like that too.
Middle eastern women will demand change.
“I hardly think” (sigh .. try it some time) “the signatories are terrorists”,
That isn’t the point though, is it? The interesting question is whether there is a real difference between “radical” and “moderate” Islam. It looks like this lot is saying that they reject such a distinction. I guess they can do without the death threats visited on Muslims who do speak out against radicals.
It would have been simple enough for the signatories to note that terrorists purporting to act in the name of Islam were not acting in accordance with Islamic teachings and that their butchery was forbidden by Islam.
“they object to being demonised as terrorists by a fearmongering government looking to grab votes and introduce anti privacy legislation using them as an excuse and a bogeyman.”
They seem to be saying there is no distinction to be made between themselves and the so-called radicals.
“They rightly point out that there are plenty of Australian soldiers serving in foreign militaries”
So you don’t see any difference between serving in an army and joining a terrorist group?
I’m fairly sceptical about the proposed anti-terror laws, but I will wait and see what they actually provide.
“Middle eastern women will demand change.”
Their feminist sisters in the West seem to be a bit slow to that party. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who cries out for change, is generally reviled by the left.
“I don’t think I’ll ever again go to a country that doesn’t allow easy access to alcohol.”
Wise words.
Maybe we need our own Gutter Trash Trip Advisor thread?
I mean, we do have lots of well-traveled, intelligent, articulate people on the blog with astute insights into international cultures and customs.
And we also have egg.
“…That isn’t the point though, is it?…”
It is exactly the point.
I still remember ToSY’s travel photos from a couple of years ago. They were excellent.
Muslims don’t (knowingly) eat pork.
#Justsayin
“… a fearmongering government looking to grab votes and introduce anti privacy legislation using them as an excuse and a bogeyman.”
That’s about the size of it.
For some reason, they need to keep an eye on the online presence of the entire population. Are we all potential Islamist Extremists?
I see no justification for the majority having to forfeit their privacy because a few hundred (anyone care to dispute that number?) religious nutcases might feel compelled to commit horrors here one day; in the name of their particular version of imaginary crap.
Seems a tad disproportionate a reaction to the magnitude of the overhyped perceived threat.
AO –
• Lack of education
• Male domination
• Strong religious traditions
I thought about some of those issues, and I decided that blaming all those factors doesn’t explain all the anger and violence.
I’ve been through Central & South America a couple of times (during my adventure travel decade+). Up to about 30 years ago it was torn apart with civil war, military dictatorships, US intervention, religious domination (particularly in rural areas), entrenched machismo culture, poor education, colonisation followed by independence struggle followed by drug cartels.
You name it, South America had the problem, and there are still plenty of difficult social, law and order and wealth distribution problems (and parts may still lapse back into self-destruction)
But despite its heritage, dislocation, fragmentation, no one in Venezuela takes journalists hostage and removes their head. Law and order and powerful drug cartels are big problems but not on the same scale.
There is a very angry culture in parts of the Middle East and I’m really not fond of it coming here.
“Maybe we need our own Gutter Trash Trip Advisor thread?”
Great idea. I’ll post photos taken with my 1964 Kodak Instamatic.
“…So you don’t see any difference between serving in an army and joining a terrorist group?…”
All armies are terrorist groups.
“All armies are terrorist groups.”
Thank you for your intelligent and nuanced opinion.
‘And we also have egg.’
Its bad form laughing at poor people.
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/22/this-should-go-well-westboro-baptist-church-says-its-going-to-iraq-to-protest-isis/
“I see no justification for the majority having to forfeit their privacy because a few hundred (anyone care to dispute that number?) religious nutcases might feel compelled to commit horrors here one day”
I dunno about the accuracy of your number, but it took less people than that to do 911.
A balanced opinion on this might take account of the number of returning terrorist fighters who subsequently became involved in terrorist plans. Others might not bother with such niceties, I suppose.
I definitely think we ought to pay attention to the risks presented by returning terrorists and I would be inclined to listen to the people charged with that responsibility. Others may prefer to screech hysterically at Abbott instead of actually thinking. Who knows they may know a lot more about this than the security organisations.
https://newmatilda.com/2014/08/18/never-ending-war-terror-nothing-fear-fear-itself
“…Now, we can’t predict the future, and it’s possible that terrorists might, at some point, kill someone in Australia. But, of course, all manner of things kill Australians in Australia. Last year, more than a hundred of us died in workplace injuries. Why not launch, say, a generational struggle for safety in the building industry? Why are hypothetical deaths by terrorism so much worse than real deaths that are actually happening now?…”(same link)
Ongoing Operation Clusterfuck..
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2014/aug/25/firstdog-cartoon-budgetrepair?CMP=soc_567
Pure stupidity on a stick, KL. It makes no sense at all. In case you didn’t notice considerable resources are devoted to workplace safety.
Also, thousands of people (including hundreds of Australians) have been killed by terrorists. And your argument is ‘don’t worry be happy’? Truly you are a friend of the head-loppers.
Given your earlier argument that “all armies are terrorist groups” I suppose we should disband the armed forces as well, eh?
(True; there’s an eternal return to painting an appropriate uniform onto every pressed-tin pacifist and/or soldier-homie in muftie; we must fight (it) over there, so we don’t have to fight (it) over here, and fight (it) over here, so we don’t have to fight (it) over there.)
Sheikh Abu Adnan warns Muslims they will ‘never be Australian enough’ for ‘the bigoted Australian’
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2733516/Youre-not-white-youre-not-blue-eyed-names-not-John-Youll-never-Australian-Hardline-Islamic-preachers-explosive-rant-claiming-Muslims-never-accepted-bigots.html#ixzz3BO16XWmJ
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I’m an optimist when it comes to our species. Still, we haven’t evolved to the point where unchecked terrorism will just disappear all by itself.
Interesting link, egg. This comment is sensible:
“Dr Rifi fired back, saying that the real people who are demonising the Islamic community are the likes of Australian militants Khaled Sharrouf and Mohamed Elomar, who are fighting in the MIddle East.
‘I reckon the one who is demonising our community is the Australians fighting overseas and parading severed heads on Facebook. These are the culprit.
‘And… everyone else should point the finger at these people overseas who are demonising not just our community, their own family, and their own religion.”
“I dunno about the accuracy of your number, but it took less people than that to do 911. ”
Are you suggesting that they number in the thousands (in Australia)? The truly nutty religious zealots god-bent on causing bloodshed here. I seriously doubt it, but feel free to increase my paranoia with hard numbers if you have em.
As for the second half of the sentence, well you just can’t stop religious nutjobs from murdering innocents if they are determined (not to mention supremely arrogant in the righteousness of their misplaced beliefs) enough to do it. I’d suggest even two or three could cause untold horror if they thought it through enough & didn’t disclose their intentions too widely.
My point is, that is nowhere near reason enough to grant more intrusive power to the state to ‘protect’ us from eachother.
I couldn’t give a fuck what the spooks say. Of course they’ll always be after incrementally more surveillance capability…& there will be the government of the day, right behind them wringing their hands in glee. Once granted, shit like that never gets wound back; it’s too great a resource for the levers of power to renounce.
I’m all for smiting religious nutjobs of all persuasions, particularly the murderous ones (and, let’s face it, Islamic Fundamentalism does have that market cornered). I’m just not scared that easily into letting my rulers have carte blanche.
Conservatives seem to be peculiarly susceptible to being frightened into submission.
That worldometer is really cool!
I definitely think we ought to pay attention to the risks presented by returning terrorists = I’m all for smiting religious nutjobs of all persuasions, particularly the murderous ones.
“Others may prefer to screech hysterically at Abbott instead of actually thinking.”
Pretty sure I didn’t even type the ‘A’ word on this thread.
Once you get past the icky muslims, it’s easy to see that the implications go way beyond Abbott & actually apply to every possible stripe of government henceforth.
Sure, I think Abbott is a fuckwit, but I do think, and he certainly isn’t behind my every rationalisation; he’s not even behind many of them at all. He just happens to be the current hood ornament atop the machine.
“Are you suggesting that they number in the thousands (in Australia)?”
No. That is not what I said.
“I couldn’t give a fuck what the spooks say.”
That approach is a little cavalier. I wouldn’t blindly accept what they say, but I would certainly listen to them.
“Once granted, shit like that never gets wound back; it’s too great a resource for the levers of power to renounce.”
Now this is a very serious point. The question is whether or not we should have a discussion or just say no.
“Conservatives seem to be peculiarly susceptible to being frightened into submission.”
Not just conservatives. The intelligentsia has let Obama get away with murder when it comes to privacy and surveillance. His programs go way beyond anything suggested here. Libertarians are probably the best on this issue.
On the specific proposal I could live with something like – data of a type already legally able to be collected by ISPs being required to be held by them (and not the government) for two years and access on a case by case basis and only by warrant.
(No-one actually said ‘we’ shouldn’t pay attention to the risks (?), or attend to them, though, did they?)
(Oh, someone did; my mistake.)
“(No-one actually said ‘we’ shouldn’t pay attention to the risks (?), or attend to them, though, did they?)”
Did I say someone did actually say that?
Also, I don’t get your fallacy reference unless you are suggesting that there is no risk, that there is only a “phantom enemy” as Adam Curtis put it.
“Not just conservatives. The intelligentsia has let Obama get away with murder when it comes to privacy and surveillance. His programs go way beyond anything suggested here. ”
I certainly agree with that.
“No. That is not what I said.”
Ah…so my initial comment (“I see no justification for the majority having to forfeit their privacy because a few hundred (anyone care to dispute that number?) religious nutcases might feel compelled to commit horrors here one day”) wasn’t especially stupid then? 😉
“Now this is a very serious point. The question is whether or not we should have a discussion or just say no.”
A discussion is fine, necessary even. But, forgive my credulity when it comes to the credibility deficit the current government has with its honesty to date. As I said, a healthy reaction to any government proposing intrusion is extreme scepticism, if not mistrust.
http://www.crikey.com.au/2014/08/25/lets-hope-porn-connoisseurs-can-stop-anti-terror-laws-as-muslims-leaders-wont/
“Ah…so my initial comment (“I see no justification for the majority having to forfeit their privacy because a few hundred (anyone care to dispute that number?) religious nutcases might feel compelled to commit horrors here one day”) wasn’t especially stupid then?”
I’ve only used the s word once on this thread in relation to a quote from New Matilda which was indeed very stupid. I don’t know what the number is and neither do you. The real question is (as you rightly note) whether the fact that so many Australians joining foreign terror groups is a problem that requires increased surveillance powers, and if so what powers.
Having been caught up in one … I agree! (A rarity enlisted men rarely agree with generals!)
===========================================
Pure stupidity on a stick, KL. It makes no sense at all. In case you didn’t notice considerable resources are devoted to workplace safety.
Not enough … and certainly nowhere near the money spent on killing people “legally”
Also, thousands of people (including hundreds of Australians) have been killed by terrorists. And your argument is ‘don’t worry be happy’? Truly you are a friend of the head-loppers.
I’m with KL and Toillette on this … show us the hard numbers … in fact the security services here are second to none in Australia
Given your earlier argument that “all armies are terrorist groups” I suppose we should disband the armed forces as well, eh?
I do have issues with KL’s statement … for reason’s regular readers here will know … I don’t consider my son, his friends and my ADF friends and me … to be terrorists … in fact its those of us who “serve” that protect YOU from ………………….. where the GOVERNMENT deploys those in uniform is the real problem not those who wear it …
eg the little dick who spat on me at a ferry terminal in 1970 … ’cause I was in uniform (standing orders) … I TOO disagreed with the war in Vietnam – my choice was JAIL not freedom of speech – or spit!
eg My son is very proud of the role he played in Bougainville and E Timor (in the ADF and for UN) … for the people who suffered …
eg An ADF Reservist captain friend recently came back from the Phillipines – remember the massive cyclone?
eg Another Lt Colonel from the ADF legal dept. just came back from Ukraine and the Malaysian Airlines debacle …
eg I’ve met the parents of one of the boys who died in Afghanistan … and a complete stranger in a jewellery shop who was recovering from an IED … and told me in three months he was expected to be in a wheelchair as his body began to fail – he was 22 …
I know of no Australian serviceman or woman who has committed atrocities that we have seen terrorists commit over the last four decades … nor would they be condoned by the Green Machine!
ROEs are the bible for all good soldiers …
Anyone watch the United States of Secrets – part one – last night?
I suggest you catch up on SBSon Demand and then watch part two next week … all about domestic surveillance in the states … initiated by GW Bush … or attempted?
we haven’t evolved to the point where unchecked terrorism will just disappear all by itself.
No, but is bombing the crap out of people from their birth going to help either?
I’m just not scared that easily into letting my rulers have carte blanche.
pantzwetterz was the term, wasn’t it?
Mind you, our feerless leeders are busy planning, but not with any reflections about the last foray into the region by warmongering religious zealots? Would we have the current situation had dog fearing nations not have invaded a Sovereign country without the backing of the UN? It’s almost s if they created a “Perfect Storm” for radicals.
Could anybody have foreseen this outcome?
The decision to go to war is reckless because it exposes us to a heightened threat of terrorism…
http://australianpolitics.com/2003/03/20/why-labor-does-not-support-the-war-crean.html
Ah, history, it is truly an undervalued pastime
I’m all for smiting religious nutjobs of all persuasions, particularly the murderous ones.
It’s not like Islam is the only one guilty of extremism. Centuries might seperate, but the intent is the same.
Catholic greed and its paranoid zeal. Curse of the grail and the blood of the cross.
‘Could anybody have foreseen this outcome?’
Sir….sir …. I saw the outcome and marched against the Iraq invasions.
I saw the outcome and marched against the Iraq invasions.
The scary thing is the bunch of dimwits we have in now are the same mould of dimwits who went rushing off last time.
tabots first response was to send in the troops this time too. Funnily enough, it was his first response to MH17 as well. Itchy trigger finger? What could go wrong 😦
Nothing can go seriously wrong on this occasion, even the Syria regime will applaud the West for hunting down these new extremists.
‘THEY are the “dangerous sons” who make up one of Western Sydney’s newest self-styled radicalised Islamic street gangs.
‘With a combination of teenage bravado, US crime culture swagger and extreme Islamic ideology, the “Fourtwozero (420)” gang is Hezbollah meets Hollywood.
‘Nearly a dozen sons of refugees who fled war-torn countries such as Afghanistan have embraced the violent culture of their homeland through a modern silver-screen lens to roam Parramatta’s streets as “soldiers”.
Daily Terror
So, Tom R, your solution is:
A. This is all about demonising the Muslim community. There is no problem.
B. Just hate Abbott.
C. IS are just very naughty boys.
D. Forget the Yazidis. Who remembers the Tutsis?
E. Do nothing. The christians were just as bad a long time ago.
F. ASIO are the real terrorists.
G. I like playing lawn bowls with human heads.
Nothing can go seriously wrong on this occasion
😯
sb, projection much?
ISIS needs to be dealt with. But I don’t think the same goons who fomented much of this anger amongst Muslims are the ones to do it. All they will do is foment more anger. Some might even argue that that is their aim. We first need to accept WHY they are there, and accept our part in their creation. In reality, I cannot see that happening with tabot and his ilk in charge. I hope Obama plays things much better than his predecessor.
But, in future, don’t try to put words in my mouth. You are not very good at it.
“The scary thing is the bunch of dimwits we have in now are the same mould of dimwits who went rushing off last time.”
Fact is we do not know what the ALP would have done if in govt. In Opposition they said they were against the second gulf war but if in govt may have done something completely different.
What we do know is that when in govt in 1992 the ALP rushed off to the Middle East and we have been there ever since.
nil, you really are quite vacuous
(Here we go, the over-unity, loose-cannon SASER’s seeking to deliver sustained sonoluminescence, again: Tasmanian MP and Iraq whistleblower Andrew Wilkie warns PM Tony Abbott to learn from past .)
Wilkie speaks much sense on this issue. tabot would be wise to listen.
‘It’s not like Islam is the only one guilty of extremism. Centuries might separate, but the intent is the same.’
And no doubt there are still some extreme, violent nutcases from other religions.
The difference with the Middle East is the vast quantity of them.
I really don’t think it is about the religion, it’s that there is a culture of violent intolerance across much of the Middle East.
Western societies appear to have weaned themselves off that over the past few generations.
it’s that there is a culture of violent intolerance across much of the Middle East.
How long have we been bombing them again?
Western societies appear to have weaned themselves off that over the past few generations.
How long have we been bombing them again?
Mind you, with tabots biggest backer egging conflict again, I don’t think Wilkie’s advice will be on their agenda
“don’t try to put words in my mouth”</i<
I was actually trying to get words out of your mouth! You are much more fun when you explain yourself a bit more. So thanks for the explanation.
“We first need to accept WHY they are there ….. ”
That is a complex question. Essentially the struggle to unite the world under a Caliphate is the fundamental mission of Islam and has been going on in one form or another for 1,400 years. The methods and motivations are the same now as when Mo personally beheaded 700 Jews in the Battle of the Trench.
“ …. and accept our part in their creation.”
Obama getting out of Iraq prematurely and not staying the course (other than the golf course) was a major factor in the resurgence of IS. The pro-Islamist policy of the Middle East Studies academic community as implemented by Obama didn’t help much either. The Arab Spring was indeed a springboard for jihadists everywhere.
This is an interesting document which Phil Adams discussed on LNL last night.
(Re the ‘(inter)national interest’ situation, peace-keeping, peace-promotion, and peaceful-enjoyment of, and by, all receive another important community-relations boost, in aid of understanding, apparently: Tony Abbott outlines details of funding for security agencies to help fight home-grown terrorists.)
“I think a great many Australians would want to see the international community act to protect the safety of the great many Iraqis that are now at risk,” Wilkie said.
Ideally that should be happening, but the UN seems to have gone AWOL which means we have little choice but to intervene.
This type of undeclared war, against small cells of terrorists in a desert landscape, is drone heaven. Our boys on the ground, in commando raids to save women and children from marauding criminal gangs, is a good move.
Wilkie speaks much sense on this issue. tabot would be wise to listen.
Wilkie did the first time but lost his job over it … for being right …
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So, sb, what’s your solution?
Obama getting out of Iraq prematurely and not staying the course (other than the golf course) was a major factor in the resurgence of IS
Trying to blame Obama for what Bush etal helped create is disingenuous, to say the least.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.%E2%80%93Iraq_Status_of_Forces_Agreement
Especially having a go about golf ffs. Would that be because of the immortal words “playing golf during a war just sends the wrong signal” ❓
but the UN seems to have gone AWOL
Perhaps the fucking warmongers should have listened to them in the first place!
(“This type of undeclared war, against small cells of terrorists in a desert landscape, is drone heaven. Our boys on the ground, in commando raids to save women and children from marauding criminal gangs, is a good move.”
True.)
The Arab Spring was indeed a springboard for jihadists everywhere.
Or a sign that the Arab world had had enough of being exploited by American interests?
One could argue that, had the coalition of the trigger happy not blown their fuse in Iraq, then their options within the unrest in Syria would have been vastly expanded, leaving ISIS (should it have even evolved without the mire of Iraq to feed it) no fertile ground for expansion.
I’m not saying that the foolish Iraq venture started this, but a lot of the blame lies there. If that cannot be acknowledged and taken into account, we have no hope of resolution here.
(Since when did the UN go AWOL? So confusing! Entities with capacity to assist must/should/should not deliver emergency aid to hungry-thirsty-starving children-not-of-fighting-age involuntarily emplaced in embattled beseige-zones?)
TB, as far as the immediate question goes, as I said above: “On the specific proposal I could live with something like – data of a type already legally able to be collected by ISPs being required to be held by them (and not the government) for two years and access on a case by case basis and only by warrant.”
The bigger battle is one of ideas – and defeating deeply held religious beliefs is going to be a lot harder than defeating a half-arsed secular ideology like communism. I would free up the grounds for debate by getting rid of the current PC notions. Anyone who uses the term “Islamophobia” should be ridiculed and marginalised. We need to be able to have a full and frank discussion about Islam. The discourse should acknowledge the private right to religious belief (there are many good bits of Islamic theology) while denouncing Islam as a political ideology.
Particular practices and teachings which are against basic human rights should be called out until they are no longer taken seriously.
The Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamist groups should be marginalised as being unacceptable and excluded from government dialogue. Government recognition and dialogue should be with groups which acknowledge that the parts of the Koran and hadiths which sanction practices which are abuses of human rights (rules about the status of girls and women and gays and kuffar, jihad, islamic supremicism etc) have no place in the world now. (I think it will be too hard to force an admission that such practices were always wrong.)
In terms of current crises where large numbers of people are being killed and persecuted direct intervention may be able to save lives but that should be done by the UN. If the UN is unwilling or unable to organise anything in a timely manner then individual countries mah have to step up. Exactly how is a question of strategic assessment to be made by those with knowledge of what is possible.
I don’t think people want to stand by and watch mass killings.
We need to be able to have a full and frank discussion about Islam.
I AGREE!
Although, with murdochs papers poisoning the well, that is unlikely to occur 😦
Our boys on the ground, in commando raids to save women and children from marauding criminal gangs, is a good move.
Oh FFS!
<a href="These forces are growing more powerful:
Link
“Although, with murdochs papers poisoning the well, that is unlikely to occur “
There is a fair amount of well-poisining from the Islamophobia shriekers.
There is a fair amount of well-poisining from the Islamophobia shriekers.
Not sure what you mean here sb. Perhaps an example to clarify?
(Softly, softly, gently.)
In terms of current crises where large numbers of people are being killed and persecuted direct intervention may be able to save lives but that should be done by the UN.
I agree with most of your comment above the one I’ve selected … the UN simply cannot move quickly enough to do anything … the CoW is weary of battle (invasion is still invasion) … after 12 years in the Middle East our troops are literally fucked!
Its draining our resources (part of the plan I suspect) and;
There is little support for Western intervention in the Middle East anyway.
I agree we need to bombard the ME with propaganda (for want of better terminology)
And I agree with, egg, “its a drone heaven” …
But the West simply can’t put troops on the ground anymore (and ISIS knew this) we have men and women who have risked their lives on multiple deployments to Afghanistan … they area always ready (not eager) to serve … but their families play a big part in this too (more than civilians could ever understand …
Quite frankly I believe the problem needs to be dealt with by the Arab community … we simply contain it to the ME … Arab governments have sat back and waited for the US and its Allies to play the 7th Cavalry too often …
Assist from a distance with intel and heavy weapons … but stay off the ground …
We guard Australia’s borders now … we need to increase our arrivals surveillance … we need to improve our covert techniques and our overt techniques to identify, analyse, verify and delete any national insurgency threat within or outside Australia.
We have sedition laws brought in by the Howard government … we need dust ’em off and use them against rabble rousing imams locally and anyone else who thinks the Australian way of life needs changing to theirs …
I have always objected to “soldier age” men turning up in Oz as refugees when our young men and women are fighting for their freedom in their countries …
Another thing that has irked me for a long time is the lack of aid from (particularly rich)Muslim countries in the event of an international crisis …
Saudi Arabia may be a “friend” of the USA but my s/i/law assures me (after working there for 15 months) they are a bunch of vicious arseholes that televise public stoning, whipping, limb removal by sword, beheading and hanging …. but no world news …
“Or a sign that the Arab world had had enough of being exploited by American interests?”
That is factor, but it is not the reason that the resistance took an Islamist form. That factor also gave rise to a secular Arab nationalist movement. To understand the Islamist ascendancy we need to go back to at least 1928 and the founding of the Muslim Brotherhood.
It is all very well for muslims to feel badly about the failure of the Islamic world to match the material progress of the West. Some countries, particularly in Asia, built on the good bits and were successful in improving the lot of their people. The Islamists went back to basics and blamed the infidelity of Muslims to the basic principles of Islam. They are in the ascendancy now, and that is the problem we are faced with.
Good comments TB.
“they are a bunch of vicious arseholes that televise public stoning, whipping, limb removal by sword, beheading and hanging …. but no world news …”
Sobering stuff.
Quite frankly I believe the problem needs to be dealt with by the Arab community
Let’s hope they are amenable to that.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/the-problem-with-bombing-isis-in-syria/379081/
”How long have we been bombing them again?”
Too simplistic.
As I outlined yesterday, most of Central and South America have as many reasons to be anti-American as the Middle East. In fact there is plenty of anti-American sentiment across the continent, it’s just doesn’t accompany this with overt violent intolerance (these days).
South America had US –
• interference in democratic elections,
• support for violent overthrow of democratically elected governments
• installed cruel, murderous military governments
• domination of resources and industry
Despite this, there is anti US sentiment that does not (usually) manifest itself as more occasional than demonstrations, and some speeches that rankle some US presidents.
There is something about the Middle East that tolerates overt anger, violence to accompany an incredible level of narrow minded intolerance, it isn’t simply “their religion” because Malaysia and Indonesia remain reasonably peaceful (despite some isolated examples to the contrary).
Indonesia particularly is becoming increasingly tolerant, valuing democratic institutions, all within a decade or 2 of shaking off its dictatorship.
The violence is clearly cultural rather than religious.
“it isn’t simply “their religion” because Malaysia and Indonesia remain reasonably peaceful”
Maybe it’s the poverty. They don’t seem to enjoy particularly glamorous living conditions in the Middle East, whereas “most people” in Indonesia and Malaysia enjoy a more comfortable quality of life.
If people have nothing, they have nothing to lose.
I don’t know that it’s the poverty either.
In Peru the Shining Path was quite extreme and got a little support from the impoverished indigenous population in some of the regional areas. But there was never a mass uprising.
Somehow South America seems to have managed to get past all the violent dislocation. I just wonder how people there can manage to do this.
I’m not sure Indonesian villages regions and any more affluent than those of the Middle East, but maybe the weather is more conducive to just relaxing (or something). Maybe it is because they can drink some beer.
(…and maybe it is the access to alcohol after all, I always find I’m grumpier if I haven’t had a drink for a week)
are any more affluent
Even in the most remote villages of Indonesia and Malaysia they have the miracle of Sky TV.
Maybe it’s the ability to tune in to game shows and music TV shows rather than beheadings that makes life a little more palatable.
And the proximity to beer and smokes like you say.
Too simplistic.
Not to those continuously being bombarded since their births.
It would also have a lot to do with mindset. But aggravating it with bombs is no solution.
Not sure any other place has had such a continued, unrelenting barrage of armaments displaced upon it by the us “marshals” and their chosen “deputies”.
I recently saw pictures of Baghdad back in the 50’s. It looked quite appealing back then. It has been in decline for decades now, and you can trace both western and local fingers on much of the problems
http://www.news.com.au/travel/world-travel/baghdad-was-beautiful-once-and-peaceful-and-prosperous-too/story-e6frfqc0-1227034546342
http://m.afr.com/p/national/no_more_ideology_cabinet_told_Ctvy72uzUgqwzFrxvpeE2L
I’m in moderation…again!
Oh I see, it’s got the word ‘blow’ in it 🙂
(Speaking of affluence and the Middle East, if your first general star advises you that it’ll take at least 250000 troops on the ground, an extended tour, and an indeterminate amount of dollars up to hundreds of billions or more both to win the war conclusively and to responsibly discharge obligations as an occupying power to restore and maintain lawn order and basic infrastructure, just fire his war-is-too-expensive-to-do-properly-these-days-and-hasn’t-been-declared-or-done-since-1945 ass; and go with the new hand-picked, up-starred general’s undercutting recommendation that it’ll take 120000 troops, six weeks, and $50 billion to win the regime change, and just forget about occupier obligations because there will be flowers, music, and a quick hand-off to the grateful locals; and if that fails, replace the local currency and any frozen asset values with some wet-ink green-paper, pretend to reconstruct stuff while using interim authority to loot wholesale, make securing 40-year oil contracts in a denomination of your choice with any purpose-created contracting-authority the very top priority, dump 400000 automatic weapons and 100 million rounds of ammo and 40 tons of blasting caps onto the streets, and sit back and enjoy a heck of a ride.
Alternatively, dress it all up as roleplay in the theater of war, but never actually declare war, firmly assist by passing some resolute inbound-outbound not-seige embargoes on this or that and by authorising some restrained use of disproportionate force but not enough to trigger actual-war obligations, mow the grass and weed-whack the four-funerals-and-a-wedding-party with some fixed-wing aircraft and hellfires, invest some in some strategic capacity-building with in-country partners but not so much as to make make future partnerships unnecessary, string it out for a short or a long while, and do it all over again next time and the time after, to save even more.)
Oil is no longer the politico/military driver it was in the ME either …
ToM, … Egyptians seemed to be “shifty” for want of better word, The Minister, said she always felt uncomfortable … but alcoholic beverage wasn’t a problem … you may recall I warned about the Muslim Brotherhood during discussions here about the protests …
Our guide in ’97 (is it that long ago!?) was an associate professor at the Cairo Museum and we often sat and discussed a wide range of topics … and as an educated Muslim the MB was something he feared … he had a young daughter he was concerned about …
I wonder just how much involvement Russia has in fomenting trouble in the region – create chaos and control it? Although the Russians gave up on Afghanisatan* too … why do we ignore history so much?
I’m in moderation…again!
Oh I see, it’s got the word ‘blow’ in it 🙂
LOL!
The new arena of war in the age of twitter: #bringbackourgirls.
Yes, I saw those photos of Baghdad. It looked like part of my grandfather’s slide show.
My first visit to the ME was over 30 years ago (and as I pointed out, I’m no expert – I’m only making observations)
Back then, there were a couple of brief wars between Israel and their neighbours, but South America was probably the region where the US intervened more blatantly and rigorously.
South America was colonised more thoroughly, buy the European powers, then by the US. It’s independence was more hard fought, various countries had prolonged civil wars.
But it has managed to (pretty well) shake off all the violent heritage.
There’s something about the ME, I don’t think they really want to move past the superstitions and retributions that we associate with the middle ages.
From Meta’s link: “The document is a favorite among conspiracy theorists…” Sounds about right.
Mrs TB may well be right, but I’m not sure there are many street vendors around the world that aren’t “shifty”
For whatever reason, I think a culture has developed that accepts anger as a normal reaction to a problem, and extension of this is lots of violence.
————-
The local Islamic representatives that don’t wish to differentiate between moderates and extremists aren’t really looking to get themselves accepted by the general community here.
The solution to the Gaza crisis is simple – Hamas disarms and recognises Israel’s right to exist. Israel guarantees Gaza’s external security and gives Gaza preference in trade deals.
If Hamas spends the aid money it receives on its citizens rather than on rockets and tunnels then its citizens will be better off. The Israelis should be required to divert that part of their military budget they would otherwise devote to protecting their citizens from Hamas to developing the Gazan economy.
Of course this may be difficult to achieve while Hamas leaders harbour wider objectives:
The local Islamic representatives that don’t wish to differentiate between moderates and extremists aren’t really looking to get themselves accepted by the general community here.
Yep, ToM, I said similar when, sb, posted his original comment ….
===========================================
Of course this may be difficult to achieve while Hamas leaders harbour wider objectives:
Agree … are Hamas Sunni or Sh’iite?
Just checked Sunni … mmmm … same as the IS …
‘Of course this may be difficult to achieve while Hamas leaders harbour wider objectives’
I’ve mentioned it before, the only way to stop the carnage is to evacuate all Palestinians who want to give up the fight.
Careful vetting should see the hardliners to stay home with nowhere to hide, while the women and children flee to Oz. The Jewish model that never was.
‘Following the Evian Conference, the London-based Freeland League (founded in 1935) proposed the purchase of seven million acres in the East Kimberley region of Western Australia (encompassing the properties of Connor, Durack and Doherty) as a farming settlement for a potential 50 000 refugees from Nazism. The League envisaged that a vanguard party of 500 to 600 ‘pioneers’ would construct homes, a power station, irrigation works, etc, pending the arrival of the main body of colonists.’
“”…….We shall liberate our Al-Aqsa Mosque, and our cities and villages, as a prelude to the establishment of the future Islamic Caliphate. Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are at the threshold of a global Islamic civilization era………..””
And that’s why in Sydney an Islamic area like Canterbury Bankstown is now being referred to as Caliphate Bankstown.
Its a No Go zone for most Western dressed women unless they are quite happy to be subjected to insults from brave Islamic “”Warriors”” in their Datsun 180Bs or the odd bit of saliva being spat in their direction
I have a rather straight out of Left Field idea.
Why not just flatten Jerusalem and joints like Bethlehem and be done with all these relics of the past.
They’ll still have their own Mecca and for us the Food and Wine is much better in Rome anyway
Here are your Terrorists..
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/ministers-to-join-prolifer-who-believes-the-pill-kills-at-world-congress-of-families-20140725-3ckfv.html
Terrorist High Alert in Melbourne
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/26/world-congress-families-venues-cancel-over-protests?CMP=soc_568
‘Why not just flatten Jerusalem and joints like Bethlehem and be done with all these relics of the past.’
Sounds like a job for the Galactic Bruvverhood.
Old adversaries unite against a common enemy, Realpolitik.
‘The U.S. has begun surveillance flights over Syria after Barack Obama gave his authorization – a move that could pave the way for airstrikes against ISIS targets in the country.’
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2734363/US-forces-Syria-Middle-East-crisis-deepens-Obama-authorizes-surveillance-flights-ahead-possible-strikes-ISIS-despite-Assad-s-warning-attack-considered-aggression.html#ixzz3BTdIeJpD
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(No link?)
(“On Sunday Republicans called for more aggressive U.S. action to defeat ISIS militants in Syria and Iraq, accusing Barack Obama of policies that have failed to thwart potential new threats on U.S. soil.”
I hadn’t noticed any new threats on X soil; but a repeat of the Foley scenario could do it, I guess; who knows who has a sympathetic brother or a literate lady al qaeda sister at home, when there are so many brothers abroad and failed special rescue missions, or even just ho-hum business-as-usual missions, seem to involve a little bit of inconsequential precision killing of collaterals; we’d better monitor everyone more closely.)
I’m quite surprised that since the actual beheading of Foley was not released by ISIS that we have not been inundated with conspiracy theories that Foley was never killed and that the photo of his beheaded body with his head laying atop was in fact Photoshopped.
And we all know who has the equipment to do sophisticated Photoshopping ????????????????????????????????????????????
MURDOCH !
‘…seem to involve a little bit of inconsequential precision killing of collaterals; we’d better monitor everyone more closely.’
Good intelligence will minimise collateral damage, but never eliminate it completely.
‘Over the weekend, Israel leveled a 12-story building in central Gaza City. Before that, Israeli airstrikes killed three senior Hamas commanders. On Monday, Israel pounded two mosques that it said were used as storehouses for weapons or as meeting points for militants.
‘For its part, Hamas has sworn that it will never surrender or give up its arms. In a raw display of power — or panic — the group publicly executed 24 alleged collaborators over the past five days.’
Washington Poat
… and for us the Food and Wine is much better in Rome anyway
LOL! “US” what “us” … fkn hell! Us …
I have a rather straight out of Left Field idea.
More like a Right Field idea and its not very fkn straight … I suspect the Jews might be a bit miffed too … and a more than a few JC worshippers … other than the micks of course … the centre of the world (as you point out) is the Vatican … 🙄
Terrorist High Alert in Melbourne
And this is the way we should make ALL terrorists “welcome” in Australia – GO Team Australia!
(From RP’s link) …
MMMMM …
I’m quite surprised that since the actual beheading of Foley was not released by ISIS that we have not been inundated with conspiracy theories that Foley was never killed and that the photo of his beheaded body with his head laying atop was in fact Photoshopped.
While UK forensic media experts believe that Foley was executed … they believe that he was executed off camera and the video was actually Photoshopped … never, ever, ever underestimate your enemy, Wally …
“Why not just flatten Jerusalem and joints like Bethlehem and be done with all these relics of the past.”
That should fix everything.
“”……..And this is the way we should make ALL terrorists “welcome” in Australia “”
So being a good Leftie you are quite an advocate of policies against Freedom of Speech when the WCF is concerned ?
“”………….never, ever, ever underestimate your enemy, Wally …””
I assume you are referring to Murdoch ?
“It’s a mess,” Margaret Butts, one of the organisers told Guardian Australia. “We have no venue at the moment – the police are telling us it’s a safety risk because of planned protests and demonstrations.”
Great outcome.
“Margaret Butts”
guffaw.
“”In a raw display of power — or panic — ………….”
How about we say neither neither and we just say “”homicidal psychopathic acts of barbarism”
“So being a good Leftie you are quite an advocate of policies against Freedom of Speech when the WCF is concerned ?”
They’re free to be as hate-filled and bigoted as they like.
If our politicians wish to be aligned with hate groups then I think they can reasonably expect to cop some flack.
So being a good Leftie you are quite an advocate of policies against Freedom of Speech when the WCF is concerned ?
You said that not me … you seem to practice your freedom of speech to say stupid things and support silly pricks … but expect a reply when you do …
How about we say neither neither and we just say “”homicidal psychopathic acts of barbarism”
See what I mean?
””””””””from cretinous leftists trying to explain why 90% of terror attacks in the world are carried out in the name of Islam”””””””””
1. its a point of view thing
2. also depends on who is reporting it
obama has drone-bombed pakistan hundreds of times, each time they kill a ”’target”’ they also kill 30 ”’colateral”’, l`m pretty sure the pakistanis bombed feel terrorised
.
90% of terror attacks in teh-usa have been done by white yanks and l won`t even bother with what israel does to palistine
‘See what I mean?’
Nevertheless, Wally’s assumption is on song, these jihadi are committed to ‘homicidal psychopathic acts of barbarism’.
In retaliation the christians have come up with songs and prayers to counter the onslaught, but these islamists are living in a medieval dream world of ultra violence and will not listen to reason.
‘l`m pretty sure the pakistanis bombed feel terrorised’
If you hang out with a bad crowd then you are certain to get lumbered eventually. There is no dog but allah and all collaterals need be with him, only the children are innocents.
There was a story going around that the Israelis, in their customary fashion of making a polite phone call to evacuate a building before bombing it, have apparently been snubbed.
The fleeing Palestinians are supposedly being forced back into certain death by Hamas fighters …. this is probably just propaganda.
“”…….‘l`m pretty sure the pakistanis bombed feel terrorised’
If you hang out with a bad crowd then you are certain to get lumbered eventually. There is no dog but allah and all collaterals need be with him, only the children are innocents…..””
This seems to be a lovely little corner of Pakistan…………………………
http://www.smh.com.au/world/1400-children-sexually-exploited-in-uk-town-rotherham-report-20140827-108tjg.html
(Yup; Boris makes a very convincing case for why the issue of a passport to drop bunker-busters on seventy-two raisins probably should/not be entertained; also, وصل حزمة.)
Boris pulls no punches and his fighting words should attract popular opinion. Basically his Churchillian approach is telegraphing Plan B if the softly, softly approach fails.
regrets, we have a few
http://www.smh.com.au/photogallery/federal-politics/cartoons/david-pope-20120214-1t3j0.html
(Reverse-reverse-onus travel laws, now, apparently; with a bit more exposure, the Bonsai might be good to be drafted, yet.)
Jihadist Play Hard Ball
‘THE Islamic State has released pictures it claims shows the execution of 200 Syrian soldiers after the capture of a key military air base earlier this week.’
Daily Terror
(In other assembled news, the hubot uprising has begun; inhuman jihadists cited by the HUN; former UN lawyers are stunned; and a presently-uncooperative, not-quite-yet-liberally-pluralistically-democratically-replaced, pre-9/11 Iraqi government remains legally-undergunned.)
(Yes, that makes good sense…
…all things considered.)
(Nearer to home, the traitorous ABC reports that Muslim radicals continue to resist the Federal Government’s charm offensive: Sydney Muslim leaders left ‘disappointed’ by meeting with Attorney-General George Brandis.)
(I tell a lie, which I, and via News Corp, now correct for sake of fairness, balance, accuracy, and constructive agreeability: “In contrast, a spokesman for Mr Brandis said the meeting was constructive. “It was a friendly and constructive meeting and it was agreed that consultations would continue,” the spokesman said.”)
The spokesman for Brandis speaks Doublethink.
We have to stop these young Australians going off to fight in a holy war. A spokeswoman for the Belmore Muslim community yesterday confirmed there will be no virgins for Oz fighters beamed up in the heat of battle.
The level of threat from international terrorism to Britain has been raised from substantial to severe.
And no doubt Tony will do the same here.
I hope Neil and egg still have their fridge magnets.
Death to IS Jihadists
‘The boy, who has not been named, eventually went to the camp, where he said they exercised, learned about the Quran, took courses on weapons, while some were forced to watch gruesome videos.
‘He added: ‘When we go to the mosque, they order us to come the next day at a specific time and place to [watch] heads cut off, lashings or stonings.
‘We saw a young man who did not fast for Ramadan, so they crucified him for three days, and we saw a woman being stoned [to death] because she committed adultery.’
‘The boy managed to escape the camp after his father pulled him out and he and his family fled to the safety of Turkey.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2738469/Forced-watch-crucifixions-stonings-beheadings-taught-fire-machine-guns-big-How-Islamic-State-training-camps-children-swelling-ranks-junior-jihadis.html#ixzz3Bua6xV8h
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