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Victorian Council Bans christian prayers from Meetings

December 10, 2014
No room at the Inn: Mayor Margot Smith

No room at the Inn: Mayor Margot Smith

A Victorian council has banned christian prayers at its meetings.

The Mayor of Surf Coast Shire, Margo Smith, said the ban by the council to keep up with changing views in society.

Cr Smith said the decision was not about rejecting religion.

“The purpose of that was actually around inclusiveness,” she said.

“We want to make sure that no-one – none of our councillors, none of our community – feel uncomfortable with either the language we use and the procedures that we take.”

Eight councillors voted to support the motion and one voted against it.

Cr Smith said the support for a secular pledge reflected a growing view in her community that religion had no place in civic life.

“It was actually about taking the religion away from it, it wasn’t about rejecting religion,” she said.

“It was about let’s make this commitment that if you want to make it a religious thing then you can do it quietly.

“But in terms of what we say in front of the community, we felt that it was better to take the religious part out of it.”

The Municipal Association of Victoria does not keep figures on how many councils open meetings with a Christian prayer, but many councils do, especially in regional Victoria.

The City of Greater Geelong, which shares a border with the Surf Coast Shire, begins each meeting by acknowledging the traditional Aboriginal owners of the land.

 

 

 

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86 Comments leave one →
  1. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 10, 2014 4:10 pm

    I happen to know that there are lots of heathens in that municipality.

  2. December 10, 2014 6:48 pm

    ”””””””””’the support for a secular pledge reflected a growing view in her community that religion had no place in civic life””””’

    #it is nice to see the occasional outbreak of sanity still occurs from time to time

  3. December 10, 2014 7:15 pm

    # Tewwawist Update (from TV)

    l just saw on pbs.? cia have admitted/leaked lying about torture at gitmo and other `black-sites`, torture revealed no secrets/special info, and many should never have been there in first place, some torture victims died from torture,

    hicks and habbib are now on `war-path` in various ways,

    mori (hicks yank lawyer, now aussie) reckons there still won`t be prosecutions of `torturers` in teh-usa, and obamas problem is, obama used `kill-lists` made from torture victims `false` claims(say anything to stop the agony) #abcnews

    another dude (arabic/islam) didn`t catch name, reckons the isis mob in iraq/syria are made-up of those tortured, family, neighbors, friends.etc

  4. December 10, 2014 7:28 pm

    BTW the `kill-lists` mentioned above, are what `feeds` the drone-bombing teh-usa is doing, which has killed 4-5000 people, average `drone-bombing` kills 1-target(from`kill-list`) AND 30_collateral

  5. TB Queensland permalink
    December 10, 2014 8:17 pm

    I happen to know that there are lots of heathens in that municipality.

    Link? 😯

    #it is nice to see the occasional outbreak of sanity still occurs from time to time

    My sentiments exactly … but you knew that … 🙂

    And you have a problem with drones dontchya, tbagz … got a link for yer “numbers” … sooner use drones than people …

  6. December 10, 2014 8:54 pm

    What no platitudes to imaginary friends? Next they will be stoppin the Catlick pweests bummin alter boys… where will it end?

  7. Tom R permalink
    December 11, 2014 8:23 am

    I heard this morning that hicks had go at brandis overnight at a human rights function.

    The strangest thing about all that was, what was brandis doing at a function for human rights? 😯

    ok, here it is

    “Hey, my name is David Hicks!” he shouted, as Senator Brandis wrapped up his address at a human rights awards function on Wednesday evening.

    “I was tortured for five-and-a-half years in Guantanamo Bay in the full knowledge of your party! What do you have to say?”

    http://www.canberratimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/david-hicks-heckles-attorneygeneral-george-brandis-at-human-rights-awards-ceremony-20141210-124h54.html

    Loved to have known what brandis really wanted to say about it lol

  8. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 11, 2014 9:22 am

    Heavens!!

    Public servants are taking action, that’s a first. Will anyone notice?

    More than 15,000 public servants working at Centrelink, Medicare and the Child Support Agency will launch a campaign of “civil disobedience” on Thursday over a pay and conditions dispute.

    Workers the giant Department of Human Services, which runs the agencies, will ignore their bosses’ emails, screen their managers’ calls, defy office rules on tea and toilet breaks and send messages to the public highlighting their dispute with management.
    Public service dress codes may even be flouted in what has been dubbed the “DHS day of action”.

    How do people defy rules on toilet breaks? As for tea breaks, are they going to eat 2 timtams?

    http://www.canberratimes.com.au/national/public-service/human-services-public-servants-begin-industrial-campaign-over-pay-offer-20141210-124ar7.html

  9. Tom R permalink
    December 11, 2014 9:28 am

    Will anyone notice?

    You mean, apart from you 😉

    How do people defy rules on toilet breaks?

    Use more than two sheets?

  10. Splatterbottom permalink
    December 11, 2014 9:52 am

    An increasingly irrelevant religious ritual of the past should not be replaced by an irrelevant pious ritual of the present, like a welcome to country ceremony, which happens to be more pleasing to the intellectual elite. Better to reinstate the more constituionally appropriate Loyal Toast.

    Seriously, I do not need to be welcomed to my own country by a bunch of painted primitives jumping around like St Vitus just so a bunch of inner-city tossers can feel good about themselves.

  11. Walrus permalink
    December 11, 2014 10:13 am

    “”What do you have to say?”

    Mr Hicks………….What were you actually doing with the Taliban in Afghanistan ? would be a good start.

  12. December 11, 2014 11:01 am

    Seriously, I do not need to be welcomed to my own country by a bunch of painted primitives jumping around like St Vitus just so a bunch of inner-city tossers can feel good about themselves.

    And do you feel good about your self after that remark?
    How are those grazes on your knuckles going? they seem infected 🙄

  13. armchair opinionator permalink
    December 11, 2014 11:04 am

    …Seriously, I do not need to be welcomed to my own country by a bunch of painted primitives jumping around like St Vitus just so a bunch of inner-city tossers can feel good about themselves…

    How about allowing it so the ‘primitives’can feel good about themselves, it’s not all about you!

  14. Splatterbottom permalink
    December 11, 2014 11:04 am

    No, it is merely a statement of the bleeding obvious, but I knew you’d like it.

  15. Splatterbottom permalink
    December 11, 2014 11:09 am

    “How about allowing it so the ‘primitives’can feel good about themselves”

    This is purely a secondary issue to that of the posturing of the idiot left.

  16. December 11, 2014 11:17 am

    “” I do not need to be welcomed to my own country by a bunch of painted primitives jumping around like St Vitus just so a bunch of inner-city tossers can feel good about themselves.””

    Have you ever been outside of Brisbane….?

  17. Splatterbottom permalink
    December 11, 2014 11:18 am

    I’ve even been to Ayers Rock. Didn’t climb it out of respect to the locals, but that is a different question.

  18. Splatterbottom permalink
    December 11, 2014 11:26 am

    This New Years I’ll be welcoming guests to my house on behalf of the traditional owners, my parents.

  19. armchair opinionator permalink
    December 11, 2014 11:39 am

    And when did the original inhabitants of this country sell their land to your parents?

  20. Splatterbottom permalink
    December 11, 2014 5:15 pm

    They didn’t. The original inhabitants, whoever they were, were long dead by then.

  21. TB Queensland permalink
    December 11, 2014 5:26 pm

    The Loyal Toast? WTF!

    Loyal to whom … another bunch of shiny arsed Robber Barons aptly nicknamed, The Firm …

    On top of the racist and disrespectful comments above … you once said that we were more similar than I knew …

    I fear not, sir …

  22. Splatterbottom permalink
    December 11, 2014 6:44 pm

    My comment about Ayers Rock was entirely respectful. Other comments were certainly intended to be disrespectful. This is hardly surprising given I disrespect BS, particularly the sort that makes posturing leftist fools dribble with delight. None of my comments were racist. In fact my point was against those who promote racism with their divisive agenda.

    I had forgotten you disliked the Royal Family. My interest in them here is purely nationalistic for the Queen is our head of state.

    If you disregard the superficial differences like politics and manners then, the way I see it,we have a fair bit in common. We are both opiniated old bastards, loyal to and proud of our families, both fairly set in our political beliefs yet open-minded and interested in different ideas and opinions and still open to learning new things and sometimes even changing our minds. And we both enjoy a stoush, which is why we come here. I doubt you’ll admit to any of this, but you know it’s true!

  23. Splatterbottom permalink
    December 11, 2014 7:05 pm

    You too, TBoss although you are probably a lot younger. And a bit more open-minded than me, although I am working on it.

  24. TB Queensland permalink
    December 11, 2014 7:14 pm

    I doubt you’ll admit to any of this, but you know it’s true!

    The difference is that on the weekend past I actually toasted The Queen … as part of the ceremony … ritual if you will …

    However … I did find this statement distasteful:

    Seriously, I do not need to be welcomed to my own country by a bunch of painted primitives jumping around like St Vitus just so a bunch of inner-city tossers can feel good about themselves.

    And I need not explain to you why … a deliberate comment to inflame a debate that should have been put to rest decades ago … while I do not feel guilty about what whitefolk did to Aboriginals in the past, I do feel responsible for my generation and those following to show respect to the original owners of OUR country … I’m proud of my Yorkshire/Sussex heritage and my lineage that has been traced back to 1515 …

    But in 1961 I fell in love with this place … all of it … its crudeness, its camaraderie, its vitality, its opportunity, its beautiful coastline, its awe inspiring outback … but especially its people of all walks colours and yes, beliefs … this is the place my immediate family live and we do live a good life … a life I believe ALL Australians should be able to achieve …

    Having meandered through all that … I take your point and you know I know it’s true … I’m just surprised you had doubt that I would admit agree “to any of this” …

    (You’ll be pleased to know my third g/son as just received a second award for his work in the HS Debating Team … ) 😉

  25. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    December 11, 2014 7:20 pm

    (You’ll be pleased to know my third g/son as just received a second award for his work in the HS Debating Team … )

    Clearly gets it from his grandmother’s side.

  26. Splatterbottom permalink
    December 11, 2014 7:29 pm

    The lad enjoys debating eh? The apple doesn’t land far from the tree.

  27. TB Queensland permalink
    December 11, 2014 8:05 pm

    Clearly gets it from his grandmother’s side.

    Pity you didn’t stick a smiley with that, ToM …

    Just pretencin’ …. 🙂

  28. December 11, 2014 9:06 pm

    ”””problem with drones dontchya, tbagz”””

    so-called `air-superiority` only provides large quantities of destruction, not `victory`, which you `should` know, Vietnam and all,

    the numbers l`ve memorised from tv news and docos, so do ya`own goggling 🙂 , it was already out that 60% of kill-list `targets` turned-out to be wrong in various ways, killing innocent folk, and sometimes even peace `negotiators` working toward teh-usa `goals`, yeah sure, l hear`ya on the `concept` side of drones, but it is really just ramping-up the indiscriminate side of the un-needed killings in reality

  29. December 11, 2014 9:11 pm

    ””’that hicks had go at brandis overnight at a human rights function.””’#guffaw

    #yeah, saw on tv, and brandis ran away 🙂 team-torture didn`t want to stick around and talk to lowly torture-victims l suppose

    ””what was brandis doing at a function for human rights?””#exactly

  30. Meta permalink
    December 12, 2014 1:01 am

    (Good news, I suspect: the long-promised, unreservedly-proactive constitutional recognition campaign proceeds (in)completely apace; and, once more, with feeling, Primitive Australia becomes another dining experience closer to officially recognising Conservative Australians in peak documentary form.)

  31. December 12, 2014 2:42 am

    (For Certain; Primitive Australia will be lucky to survive zombie government of free-hate-speech; and not be re-re-re-classified as flora, or fauna, or not dark-shaded enough to belong to Terra Nully-arse.)

  32. TB Queensland permalink
    December 12, 2014 10:39 am

    … team-torture didn`t want to stick around and talk to lowly torture-victims l suppose

    And how did Hicks get to where he is now? Do your own “goggling” (sic) although you don’t seem to be too good at that … here’s a reminder …

  33. December 12, 2014 4:55 pm

    Simple Kweenzland thinking l suppose. While others can see teh-usa monster buying torture victims for their gulags from the enemy is wrong. Can also see that young dills going to fight in chechyna and kashmir is stupid. Just as Kweenzlanders might use `posed` photos from chechnya as `afghan-evidence` battle-action 🙂

  34. December 12, 2014 5:07 pm

    You need to ignore a lot of evidence from a lot of different places to believe team-torture TB,
    hicks, kidnapped and sold, from afghanistan and sent to gitmo,

    habbib, kidnapped in pakistan, sent to egypt,
    4-uk-guys attacked in pakistan, 1-dead/missing 3-sent to gitmo, all claim torture with teh-usa present/doing, and uk/aust-govt present

  35. Splatterbottom permalink
    December 12, 2014 5:15 pm

    No surprise here – Hanson-Young goes full leftist fucktard over wannabe jihadist Hicks:

  36. December 12, 2014 5:22 pm

    ””””””””CIA agents tortured a German citizen, sodomising, shackling, and beating him, as Macedonian state police looked on, the European court of human rights said in a historic judgment released on Thursday.

    In a unanimous ruling, it also found Macedonia guilty of torturing, abusing, and secretly imprisoning Khaled el-Masri, a German of Lebanese origin allegedly linked to terrorist organisations.

    Masri was seized in Macedonia in December 2003 and handed over to a CIA “rendition team” at Skopje airport and secretly flown to Afghanistan.

    It is the first time the court has described CIA treatment meted out to terror suspects as torture.

    “The grand chamber of the European court of human rights unanimously found that Mr el-Masri was subjected to forced disappearance, unlawful detention, extraordinary rendition outside any judicial process, and inhuman and degrading treatment,” said James Goldston, executive director of the Open Society Justice Initiative.
    http://www.theguardian.com/law/2012/dec/13/cia-tortured-sodomised-terror-suspect
    ””””””””””””””””””””’

    # echos hicks, habib, 3-surviving uk guys, gotta apply a lot of willful blindness to believe team-torture,

    # but l suppose the pro-drone position requires a certain level of air-superiority willful blindness too, vietnam, iraq, korea, somalia

  37. December 12, 2014 6:12 pm

    #google drones+collateral (difficult in kweenzland)

    ”””””””Human rights groups say such secrecy prevents scrutiny and accountability for civilian casualties. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have released reports focused on Pakistan and Yemen that say the strikes could be illegal and that the U.S. has killed more than 4,700 people, including more than 1,000 civilians.
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/3/pentagon-gives-more-room-for-deadly-error-in-drone/?page=all
    ””””””””””””””””

  38. December 12, 2014 6:23 pm

    ””84 of the 2,379 dead have been identified as members of al Qaeda””

    ””’It is stated in a Bureau of Investigative Journalism (BIJ) report that of all the drone attack victims since 2004, more than 76% of the dead fall in the legal grey zone, 22% are confirmed civilians (included 5% minors) and only the remaining 1.5% are high-profile targets.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_strikes_in_Pakistan
    ”””””””””””””””’

    # there is all kinds of numbers on this page, which include the pro-drone team-torture-and-lies numbers too, take`ya pick

  39. December 12, 2014 6:40 pm

    I’d have thought that the CIA torture report is undeniable evidence that the criticisms some of us were making way back when, let alone Australian citizens sacrificed on the altar of kowtowing to Uncle Sam, were indeed on the money.

    You can’t be the World’s Moral Policeman when everyone knows you’re up to your neck in immoral shit…let alone when that’s posthumously verified by your own.

    US rhetoric has always rung hollow & self provident (Manifest Destiny…anyone?). Defenders of it suffer their own bout of equivocation.

  40. December 12, 2014 6:44 pm

    ””'(CNN) — U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan have killed far more people than the United States has acknowledged, have traumatized innocent residents and largely been ineffective, according to a new study released Tuesday.

    The study by Stanford Law School and New York University’s School of Law calls for a re-evaluation of the practice, saying the number of “high-level” targets killed as a percentage of total casualties is extremely low — about 2%.
    http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/25/world/asia/pakistan-us-drone-strikes/
    ”””””””””””’
    #simple math
    target v collateral (1 v 30) with `about` 60% `target`error-rate=2%

  41. December 12, 2014 6:45 pm

    Note…the US has done its usual & won’t be holding anyone to account!

    Holding people to account & screeching for (US) justice only applies to foreign nationals (like Hicks, one of ours) & in such cases they spit upon our sovereignty & make up their opportunist laws as they go along.

    Hicks aside, the assuming the position Australian governments do for Uncle Sam show where their loyalties & pandering truly lie.

  42. December 12, 2014 6:47 pm

    I thought ‘we’ (the supposed non-terrorists, the supposedly ‘enlightened’, the supposedly ‘civilised’) were meant to be better than that?

    * I didn’t really think that at all…I’m a cynic who doesn’t fail to recognise the rhetorical disconnections & actual behaviours of my own (default by birth) team.

  43. December 12, 2014 6:48 pm

    Well said dunny.

  44. December 12, 2014 6:48 pm

    Oh yeah…and fuck drone killing programmes!

    They smacck of detached mass murder with little oversight or accountability. Like all things, we love it until someone else starts doing it to ‘ours’.

  45. December 12, 2014 7:01 pm

    ””smacck of detached mass murder with little oversight””#correct

    Not to mention the decision process has,

    #gone from assessing whether info is good enough to risk `machinery` AND `crew-member/s` lives on

    #TO fcuk-it, its just metal
    (which surprises me a little, coming from TB)

  46. Tom R permalink
    December 12, 2014 7:49 pm

    They smacck of detached mass murder with little oversight or accountability. Like all things, we love it until someone else starts doing it to ‘ours’.

    too true toilet, and listening to the news just recently bragging about our planes dropping bombs from afar (but only relaying hits, not unfortunate misses I’m sure) shows just how far we have “advanced”

  47. December 13, 2014 6:34 pm

    How quickly we forget, when it suits our agenda.

  48. TB Queensland permalink
    December 13, 2014 7:36 pm

    (which surprises me a little, coming from TB)

    Why? My grandfathers fought in WWI, my parents four uncles in WWII and two served in National Service one in the RAF and one in the Army in Berlin, I was called up for VN, and my son served in Bougainville and East Timor … the closest I got to being under fire was holding up targets in a pit on a firing range … the sound of rounds hitting the dirt behind you is one I’ll never forget … and throwing my first couple of live grenades … sorta gives you a different perspective on the “killing power of the enemy” …

    Watch Saving Private Ryan, Blackhawk Down, Lone Survivor and figure how much better it would be to have drones overhead before you hit the beach, city or village …

    As for collateral damage … I see no links … and based upon the latest CIA Report … I’d say a link is necessary for your 2% and kill rate …

    And quite frankly my family is more important than our enemies …

    Disclaimer: had I been deployed to VN in 1970 and was I under fire I would have fired back – aggressively! And I didn’t support the war then nor today … the reason I went to Long Tan earlier this year was to respect fellow National Servicemen who fought and died as heroes …

    Ask any soldier serving or ex … and drones are good!

    (but only relaying hits, not unfortunate misses I’m sure)

    Speculation, TR?

    This demonstrates a misunderstanding of the high tech hardware (read accuracy) that our military operate these days … and some things need to remain secret to protect our troops and give our strategists the element of surprise …

    Are you suggesting that we stop drones and bombs and send in ground troops instead?

    Just be thankful that our enemy does not have the capabilities that you are criticising …

  49. December 13, 2014 8:08 pm

    “Just be thankful that our enemy does not have the capabilities that you are criticising …”

    Yet.

    Sorry, TB, but drone killing is too much like BigBrother with his finger on an indiscriminant button.

    I realise you are seeing it from the pov of an infantryman, fair enough; but, to me, the implications are bigger than that.

    States shouldn’t be able to nominate & execute targets by remote control. It makes the choices & accountabilities much more potentially frivolous.

    “more important than our enemies … ”

    I dunno about everyone else, but personally, I don’t have government endorsed ‘enemies’ whom I’m willing to licence the killing of in a CallOfDuty style fashion.

    I’m sure you’re not so naïve as to think that drone strikes don’t lead to collateral damage.

  50. TB Queensland permalink
    December 13, 2014 8:21 pm

    I’m sure you’re not so naïve as to think that drone strikes don’t lead to collateral damage

    Ta …

    But I’ also know that you can’t be naïve enough to know that there is a distant war that can eventually hurt Australia …

    I also believe that “evil exists where good people do nothing” … the Western world had to fight for its freedom I reckon the Eastern world does too … think of all the collateral damage caused by WWII … and closer VN … you’re seeking perfection in an imperfect world …

    And I’ve also broached the subject with my adult grandchildren and said that eventually they may have to make a choice between China and Islam …

    ‘Tis a cruel world but nothing seems to change …

  51. December 13, 2014 8:37 pm

    Give me China, in that case.

    But, my concern, TB, is the easy absolution which drone killing grants the decision makers. I’m not thinking about it with your side in particular in mind.
    What if China, Russia, Iran, North Korea et al start using the same rationale? (only a matter of time until they do, probably).

    And I’m not at war with anyone, here or abroad.

    “you’re seeking perfection in an imperfect world ”

    I rather see it as seeking consistency in moral vacuums & recognising my biases but not granting them sway by default.

  52. December 13, 2014 8:40 pm

    The main argument for drone killing I’m detecting is that it’s safer for our ground troops…and I’m sure that’s true.

    I still don’t see that as a powerful excuse, because not everyone else on the ground is an enemy combatant. The detached nature of the killing makes it far easier to scrub a few innocents with impunity & ethical disconnection.

  53. December 14, 2014 5:39 pm

    Recently read this…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_Any_Price:_Greed,_Power,_and_Endless_War

    Extrapolated, it only strengthens my resistance towards things like drone killing…

  54. TB Queensland permalink
    December 14, 2014 7:11 pm

    What if China, Russia, Iran, North Korea …

    Stretchin’ now, Toillette … where are drones actually used? North East Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria … why?

    If the countries you named used ’em we would have a bit more to worry about than drones …

  55. December 14, 2014 7:22 pm

    ” … where are drones actually used? AT THE MOMENT North East Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria … why BECAUSE ‘WE’ TEMPORARILY HAVE THE UPPER HAND?”

    I’m yet to see a justifiable rationalisation, apart from “it saves ‘our’ boys'”(not to discredit the impetus behind that)…I’m not on ‘our’ side…or ‘theirs’…I am in my own corner refusing to grant the power of C.O.D. to anyone.

    Surely you don’t assert that ‘we’ will have a monopoly on such things indefinitely? and, even if ‘we’ do/did, I’m still not onboard the justification train. Respectfully divergent, TB; like the gun-toting argument, my friend.

    * not shouting, above, just aiming for distinction within the quote…

  56. December 14, 2014 7:59 pm

    ””I’d say a link is necessary for your 2% and kill rate””
    provided above, cnn, stanford and ny uni`s

    _____________

    (which surprises me a little, coming from TB)

    ””Why? My grandfathers fought in WWI”’ blah blah blah, nice diversion.

    #TRY Me-Lei-murder-by-groundtroops=bad
    Me-Lei-murder-from-above=good

    #isn`t there some kind of soldiering rule of `protecting` citizens not murdering them with impunity, un and human rights type stuff.?

  57. December 14, 2014 8:15 pm

    ””BECAUSE ‘WE’ TEMPORARILY HAVE THE UPPER HAND?””

    #exactly, the minute `somebody-else` is murdering with impunity citizen of los-angeles, sheffield, honalulu, tel-aviv or brisbane, armed drones won`t seem like a good idea, and with all the technology off-shore out-sourced by teh-west, it is pretty delusional to think that `everybody-else` won`t want them and use them.

  58. December 14, 2014 8:20 pm

    Outsourcing war to private contractors, ala the rebadged Blackwater, is the new way of doing war with impunity…

  59. December 14, 2014 8:32 pm

    ””Blackhawk Down,””
    ””figure how much better it would be to have drones overhead before you hit the beach, city or village””

    # Debatable. lt would entirely depend on whether people believe the `mission` is worthwhile or ethical. ln blackhawk-down/gothic-serpent, didn`t it turn-out that most of the `high-value` targets weren`t even at the kidnap location.?

    #operation eagle-claw, neither observation-drones, nor armed-drones would have saved`em.

    #Vietnam, do you really think they would have surrendered to another colonial power with drones.?

  60. December 14, 2014 8:44 pm

    ””Ask any soldier serving or ex … and drones are good!””

    # This is total horse-shit. You are trying to imply that armed-drones are only operating above hot battle-fields, enemy training-camps and other traditional `legitimate` military targets. The opposite is the `actual` case. lt `is` villages and other `residential` or rural areas filled with non-fighters of any stripe. Murdering lots of `shepards`, `farmers`, taxi-drivers and similar aint helping.

  61. TB Queensland permalink
    December 14, 2014 8:56 pm

    Surely you don’t assert that ‘we’ will have a monopoly on such things indefinitely? and, even if ‘we’ do/did, I’m still not onboard the justification train.

    Absolutely not … and other nations will acquire them (probably have) … drones have limited use as weapons platforms … there prime purpose is intelligence gathering …

    #Vietnam, do you really think they would have surrendered to another colonial power with drones.?

    WGAF!

    teabagz … I don’t condone wars of any kind especially the Mid East oil wars and VN commo domino crap … but if we have to go to war then I want the best equipment, training, weapons and intelligence support my country can supply … IF we have to defend Australia (other folk generally start the fucking things – I can’t recall Australia starting one) … then I’d like the ADF to be well prepared to protect your arse and mine … ’cause you couldn’t do it alone …

    In my travels around the world I’m convinced that 90% of us just want to bring our kids up into a safe future, enjoy family and friends and a stress free life … then there is the 10% …

    ””Why? My grandfathers fought in WWI”’ blah blah blah, nice diversion.

    And that’s not a fkn “diversion” … I don’t want my g/children having to put on a uniform – ever!

    And anything that demonstrates a superiority and makes aggressors think twice I’ll support .

    What makes you think drones are worse than any other weapon of war …

  62. TB Queensland permalink
    December 14, 2014 9:01 pm

    Murdering lots of `shepards`, `farmers`, taxi-drivers and similar aint helping.

    Have you ever heard of the Viet Cong? Look ’em up … there is no traditional wars fought …

    You are trying to imply that armed-drones are only operating above hot battle-fields

    I’m not trying to imply anything at all … you are locked into watching movies about armies fighting armies … bit more complex than that … and you strike the enemy wherever and whenever you can …

    Lesson 1. There are no rules in a war.

    And before you start attempting to quote the Geneva Convention find a summary of it.

  63. December 14, 2014 9:03 pm

    ” there prime purpose is intelligence gathering … ”

    Another slippery slope…as far as privacy goes. Now used by police forces etc, I believe.

  64. December 14, 2014 9:04 pm

    “Lesson 1. There are no rules in a war. ”

    Quite concerning, because it cuts both ways…

  65. TB Queensland permalink
    December 14, 2014 9:04 pm

    Respectfully divergent, TB; like the gun-toting argument, my friend.

    I know … we can’t agree on everything, people will start to talk … 🙂

  66. TB Queensland permalink
    December 14, 2014 9:06 pm

    Quite concerning, because it cuts both ways…

    I know … but I don’t make the rules … 😆

  67. December 14, 2014 9:10 pm

    ””What makes you think drones are worse than any other weapon of war””(#never-claimed-worse)

    #and the `about` 98%_collateral aint helping

    #Having a `tool` in the tool-box to be used in last-resort cases is one thing, running around `hammering` everything and anything is an entirely different matter, and with both `teams` reluctance to admit own WMD-free bad decisions and significantly change course, it probably aint the brightest idea to hand them `more` hammers.

  68. December 14, 2014 9:16 pm

    ”””And anything that demonstrates a superiority and makes aggressors think twice I’ll support .”””

    # and you `do` realize that our very own team-imbecile/s `are` the aggressors, invaders, right.?

  69. December 14, 2014 9:42 pm

    ””’Have you ever heard of the Viet Cong? Look ‘em up””’

    ””’And before you start attempting to quote the Geneva Convention find a summary of it.””’

    # supplying no links/quotes to your comments, but demanding them from others, which you then ignore,(as_above_re_numbers)

    # hint, dumpty and kneel are `not` the `gold-standard` of blog-discussion TB

  70. Meta permalink
    December 15, 2014 2:23 am

    (All I know about droneys is, it’s quite some achievement to knowingly and methodically be making whole districts and nations of collateralised children mortally afraid of blue skies.)

  71. Meta permalink
    December 15, 2014 2:42 am

    (Otherwise, the calculus is very simple, as said; a short-delay double-tap protocol for the drone programme kills two birds with one stone; anyone left moving, civilian or otherwise, to assist the target(s) after the first strike obviously was a material supporter of terrorism, and no true civilian; also, no true civilian would have anything to do with undisclosed kill-list targets and would never situate themself at or near a site nominated by precision intelligence for an opportunistic strike. P

    Plus, as long as we’re trying not to kill civilians while we’re generally killing more specifically, a little bit of collateral killing of civilians is okay; even if we’re ignoring the reciprocal obligation not to target deemed enemies on their rostered day off and even if targets look a little or a lot like like a civilian occasionally when they’re attending a wedding or a funeral surrounded by lots of other civilians, because there’s no holidays, furloughs, weekends, or going home to family at the end of the day or the end of the tour of duty for terrorists.)

  72. December 15, 2014 2:46 am

    ””””””””””””””’
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_Any_Price:_Greed,_Power,_and_Endless_War
    Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.”””’

    # Who`s Liberty.?

    # The ””homeland security industrial complex”” smells a lot like the ””cold war industrial complex”” and the ””military industrial complex”” used to hoover-up public dollars for private profits. #teabags

  73. Meta permalink
    December 15, 2014 3:39 am

    (Drones, drones, drones, book(s) (?), drones, drones, drones.)

  74. December 15, 2014 4:06 am

    (For Certain; Unseen Brown Collateral Children Do Not Count.

    ”””””Drones Kill So Malala Can Live.
    http://www.thenation.com/article/170920/malalas-you-dont-see

    This false choice, between the drones and the Taliban, is as limited as George W. Bush’s rhetoric of “you are either with us or against us.” The nihilistic thinking of “my violence is better than your violence” also fuels the Taliban. As despicable as was the attack on Malala Yousafzai, it does not justify the drone attacks in the tribal areas of Pakistan, which continue to kill civilians like her.””””’)

  75. December 15, 2014 7:27 am

    “”droneys””

    LOL!! 🙂 🙂 🙂

  76. Tom R permalink
    December 15, 2014 8:11 am

    Speculation, TR?

    Actually, Id followed teabagz link to the wiki. It did claim that the “strike rate” was improving, but, that’s possibly of little concern to the recipients of the “stats”.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_strikes_in_Pakistan#Civilian_casualties

    States shouldn’t be able to nominate & execute targets by remote control. It makes the choices & accountabilities much more potentially frivolous.

    Good point toilet, something that gets lost imo. I hadn’t really considered it in that light before.

    it’s quite some achievement to knowingly and methodically be making whole districts and nations of collateralised children mortally afraid of blue skies.

    Children (people) in war torn regions have been afraid of blue skies for almost a century now. The one thing in favour of droneys is, as TB noted, the civilian casualties is far lower now than it used to be. Still far to high imo. But, as toilet pointed out, it distances the decision makers, and lends them, imo, false conclusions/hope on the impact of these drones.

    One of the major failings imo of Obama’s administration, Although, as I recently heard posited by Dan Darlin, no matter who you vote for in America, the foreign policy remains the same. It seems to fly well beyond political persuasion.

    I also agree with tabagz and toliet (and probably many others here) education will provide far better solutions that droning ever will.

    Unfortunately, we seem to have chosen the drone path yet again instead of education 😦

  77. Splatterbottom permalink
    December 15, 2014 9:52 am

    Unseen Brown Collateral Children Do Not Count.

    Ah, the facile patronising “little Brown people” meme is not dead yet.

    Then we have another variant of possibly the dumbest argument of all:

    “The nihilistic thinking of “my violence is better than your violence” also fuels the Taliban”

    I wonder how that would have worked against te Nazis? Big mistake Britain, taking on Hitler just when Neville Chamberlain had made peace in our time.

    And just when you thought the conversation could not get any more retarded we have this gem:

    Unfortunately, we seem to have chosen the drone path yet again instead of education

    Yes indeed. We need a volunteer brigade of teachers to go to Waziristan to teach the Taliban that Jihad is a bad idea. Once they have straightened that lot out they can move on to Islamic State and teach them Kumbaya. Truly, world peace is at hand!

  78. TB Queensland permalink
    December 15, 2014 10:36 am

    # hint, dumpty and kneel are `not` the `gold-standard` of blog-discussion TB

    And I’m not going to spend all week educating you, tbagz … you make the statements YOU back ’em up with links …

    #and the `about` 98%_collateral aint helping

    Link?

    it does not justify the drone attacks in the tribal areas of Pakistan, which continue to kill civilians like her.””””’)

    er, the Taliban originate from this area …

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    no matter who you vote for in America, the foreign policy remains the same. It seems to fly well beyond political persuasion.

    Agree …

    I also agree with tabagz and toliet (and probably many others here) education will provide far better solutions that droning ever will.

    Unfortunately, we seem to have chosen the drone path yet again instead of education 😦

    The argument of whether we should be fighting in the ME is quite different to whether we should be using weapons at our disposable ..

    I guess growing up in the UK during the fifties and the Cold War … the spectre of VN … watching my son serve overseas … gives me a different perspective …

    Just remember that politicians start wars … soldiers have to finish them …

    I hear there is an ISIL siege in Sydney!

  79. December 15, 2014 11:40 am

    the number of “high-level” targets killed as a percentage of total casualties is extremely low — about 2%.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/25/world/asia/pakistan-us-drone-strikes/

    # 3rd time YOU demanded this, and l provided, l also provided `all` other numbers l used, just sayin NO Link? makes ya look senile like dumpty 🙂

    # lt has not gone un-noticed you have supplied `alternative` data, yet claim ya`doin the teachin 🙂

  80. December 15, 2014 11:42 am

    #doh ””you have NOT supplied `alternative` data””

  81. TB Queensland permalink
    December 15, 2014 12:27 pm

    “TBIJ reports that from June 2004 through mid-September 2012, available data indicate that drone strikes killed 2,562 – 3,325 people in Pakistan, of whom 474 – 881 were civilians, including 176 children. TBIJ reports that these strikes also injured an additional 1,228 – 1,362 individuals,” according to the Stanford/NYU study.

    Based on interviews with witnesses, victims and experts, the report accuses the CIA of “double-striking” a target, moments after the initial hit, thereby killing first responders.

    That civilian figure is way too high, I agree …

    The report concedes that “real threats to U.S. security and to Pakistani civilians exist in the Pakistani border areas now targeted by drones.” And it acknowledges that drone strikes have “killed alleged combatants and disrupted armed actor networks.”

    But it concludes that drone strikes, which are conducted by the CIA in a country not at war with the United States, are too harmful to civilians, too sloppy, legally questionable and do more harm to U.S. interests than good.

    So what would you suggest as an alternative, General Teabagz …

    BTW, makes ya look senile like dumpty … the ageism insults are getting just a bit too tedious … and don’t help your case one bit …

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Wonder if the NSW Police have drones operating in Martin Place?

  82. December 15, 2014 12:49 pm

    ””So what would you suggest as an alternative, General Teabagz””

    # From this point in time, current mess, there probably isn`t an answer to the multitude of disaster created by our team shitting on the rest of the world, but l would never have trotted off into the iraq/afghan disaster in the first place.

  83. TB Queensland permalink
    December 15, 2014 2:22 pm

    … but l would never have trotted off into the iraq/afghan disaster in the first place.

    Well we agree on something …

  84. December 16, 2014 4:46 pm

    ”””I wonder how that would have worked against te Nazis? Big mistake””

    (Lets Sing; We come in peace; Shoot to kill, Shoot to kill, Shoot to kill, We come in peace; Shoot to kill, Shoot to kill, Jim.

    There`s Teabags on the Starboard bow, Starboard bow, Starboard bow, There`s Teabags on the Starboard bow, Starboard bow, Jim.)

    # Correct Splatter, The world did make a big mistake in 1939, opposing a nation based on racial superiority, which was used as an excuse to murder other races with impunity, and steal the victims property. Thank dog the world came to their senses in 1957 and reversed that position to create a safe, peaceful, and fair world in every way for all of us.

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