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When did we vote for a Taxpayer Funded Hate Campaign?

September 14, 2016
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Supporters watch on as Turnbull presents his “plebiscite scheme” in Parliament

In what must be an historic move, the Labor party together with the Greens and a number of key independents look set to save Australia from a taxpayer-funded hate campaign orchestrated by the Federal Government targeting its own citizens.

Under the rules governing the proposed plebiscite campaign media outlets would be compelled to carry advertising from both sides of the debate, meaning viewers of taxpayer funded TV and radio channels would be subjected to advertising material promoting discrimination and bigotry.

If you think this sounds far-fetched here are the specific clauses for SBS on the plebiscite ads after it refused to air anti-gay ads during Mardi Gras:

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It must be unprecedented for an Australian Government of any vocation to support vilification against its own citizens with taxpayer funds to the tune of $7.5 million being allocated towards a campaign that is solely intended to marginalise and discriminate an already vulnerable minority.

Nevertheless an undeterred Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull used his 12 month anniversary in the top job to introduce his controversial plebiscite campaign to an empty chamber in Parliament earlier today.

The fact that no supporters from his own side bothered to show up suggests that this could well be the final litmus test for Turnbull’s leadership.

If, as now widely predicted, the plebiscite will fail to go ahead, it will not only sound the death knell for Turnbull’s authority amongst the electorate, but also within the party he leads.

 

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244 Comments leave one →
  1. September 14, 2016 2:10 pm

    Government Hopes Giving Millions For Homophobic Ads Doesn’t Backfire Somehow…

    http://www.sbs.com.au/comedy/article/2016/09/13/government-hopes-giving-millions-homophobic-ads-doesnt-backfire-somehow

  2. Tom R permalink
    September 14, 2016 2:30 pm

    When did we vote for a Taxpayer Funded Hate Campaign?

    I thought “Ditch the Witch” was the start of it?

    But, in this incarnation of taxpayer funded hate.

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/eddie-the-boy-with-two-mums-who-stole-question-time-is-not-happy-with-malcolm-turnbull-20160913-grfgvi.html

  3. shaneinqld permalink
    September 15, 2016 8:02 am

    I really thought Malcolm would be a true leader, a leader of negotiation, a leader of compromise, a leader of morals, a leader of conviction, a leader of inclusiveness, a leader of strength. Sadly I appear wrong. If the ALP change their policy they are backflippers and wishy washy and all over the place. If the LNP change their policy they are changing after careful consideration and it demonstrates their willingness to change their mind and that is good governance. Honestly do they expect swinging voters to believe that rubbish. The sigh of relief ( by most moderate thinking people) around the country when Tony Abbott was removed as PM has now vanished to be replaced by even more mistrust and disbelief at our politicians. When the fact is that 1% of the informal vote would have changed the government. Or that 1,063 different votes would have resulted in a hung parliament. or that fact that 5 of the 8 states 2PP was in favour of the ALP claiming to have a mandate and yelling and screeching during Question Time simply shows the desperation of a man and his party trying to blame anyone but their own actions and policies. You have a mandate if you control BOTH houses of parliament otherwise you have no mandate whatsoever and that also applies to the ALP.

  4. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 15, 2016 9:08 am

    The only reason Big Queer doesn’t want this referendum is because it is scared shitless that it might lose. Primarily because of its own over-reach. Most people probably support marriage equality but now they understand Big Queer’s agenda includes criminalisation of support for traditional marriage and unleashing the gender-revolution on school kids.

    Big Queer doesn’t want equal funding because, as in Ireland, it has tens of millions in foreign funding available and figures that the no case will have much less.

    And the hate speech has already started: “A sweating pig-circus of morons and bigots” or “a nauseating piece of filth”. I am already worried that some fragile Christian teenager will top themselves over such vile hate-speech. So if someone on the other side says something intemperate just remember who started with the hate speech.

    It is the so-called intellectual elites who want this decision made by the political class rather than the citizens who actually voted into power a party supporting a plebiscite and supporting equal funding. No wonder the “intelligentsia” and political class are so widely hated.

  5. shaneinqld permalink
    September 15, 2016 9:25 am

    I think you would find the hate speech started with Cory Bernardi quite a number of years ago. It even began with my own father over 40 years ago when he claimed that AIDS was Gods way of getting rid of the Gays. I remember exactly where, when and who started the hate speech !!!!.

  6. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 15, 2016 9:32 am

    Big Queer doesn’t want equal funding because, as in Ireland, it has tens of millions in foreign funding available and figures that the no case will have much less.

    Why?

    Big Godbotherers have had plenty of tax free money salted away for as long as we can be bothered to look. They also know how to perform foreign banking transactions. Just ask Pell, he’s an expert at it.

  7. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 15, 2016 9:36 am

    ShaneQ, the current stance against some feared (but as yet unuttered) hate speech in the plebiscite is utterly hypocritical given the rantings of the proponents of marriage equality now going on especially as their primary aim is to vilify and delegitimise the other side.

    I actually support marriage equality but then Big Queer decided to sue the Australian Catholic Bishops for a moderately worded defence of traditional marriage. I also support free speech. I have very serious reservations about the rest of the Big Queer agenda.

  8. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 15, 2016 9:38 am

    “Why?”

    For the reason I gave and which you quoted!

  9. September 15, 2016 9:42 am

    “”The only reason Big Queer doesn’t want this referendum is because it is scared shitless that it might lose””

    Wrong. Big Queer doesn’t want the plebishite simply because it involves a taxpayer funded hate campaign.

    In case you hadn’t noticed, it’s already been conceded that it would be better to not have the vote at all than to have to endure that.

    The only reason Big Dogbotherer wants it is to spew hate and falsehoods, and to further vilify ppl based on nothing other than their own pent up hatred towards other ppl and their own fucked up dog bothering ways.

  10. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 15, 2016 9:49 am

    It is fear of losing. And they have only themselves to blame. The hatred has already started as far as this plebiscite is concerned. And it is mostly from proponents of marriage equality.

  11. shaneinqld permalink
    September 15, 2016 9:53 am

    SB you wanted to know who started the hate speech and I have pointed out to you it started over 40 years ago. My father was simply parroting what the catholic church was preaching. I know, I attended a catholic boarding school for 4 years and was raised a very strict catholic. I guarantee you I have attended more benedictions, expositions of the blessed sacrament, stations of the cross and masses than everyone on this site put together. I can tell you where the hate and vilification started and that was your question. To now say the hate started with the left is choosing to ignore all the hate dished out to the gay community for the last 40 years prior to the current debate that I know of personally, let alone the years before that.

  12. Walrus permalink
    September 15, 2016 9:53 am

    “Big Queer doesn’t want the plebishite simply because it involves a taxpayer funded hate campaign.”

    Oh yeah…………….and Twitter is sooooooooooooooooo full of looooooooooooooooove !

    I would suggest that most of the hate speech these days comes from the Left.

    if you are a public figure dont ever bite into an onion or you’ll be reviled and ridiculed by the Left

  13. shaneinqld permalink
    September 15, 2016 9:55 am

    Reb I agree the cost of the plebiscite far outweighs anything else in this so called period of budget emergency.

  14. Walrus permalink
    September 15, 2016 9:55 am

    “I guarantee you I have attended more benedictions, expositions of the blessed sacrament, stations of the cross and masses than everyone on this site put together. ”

    Would you like to place a bet on that ?

  15. shaneinqld permalink
    September 15, 2016 9:58 am

    Most of the hate speech I experience comes most definitely from the right. I have very good friends from the extreme right, more so than from the left, especially coming from the country, but have a debate on an issue and they are the first to become aggressive, raise their voices and in the end simply say well that is what I think and nothing will change it. No matter how much proof you provide it is all lies.

  16. shaneinqld permalink
    September 15, 2016 9:58 am

    Yes

  17. September 15, 2016 9:59 am

    “”I would suggest that most of the hate speech these days comes from the Left.””

    Yes, well you would say that wouldn’t you.

  18. September 15, 2016 10:00 am

    “”if you are a public figure dont ever bite into an onion “”

    By all means, knock yourself out.

  19. September 15, 2016 10:01 am

    Shane, Walrus and Rectum are just trolling for a response now… It’s symptomatic of the RWNJs, they thrive on hostility.

    Sad really.

  20. September 15, 2016 10:06 am

    “I attended a catholic boarding school for 4 years and was raised a very strict catholic. I guarantee you I have attended more benedictions, expositions of the blessed sacrament, stations of the cross and masses than everyone on this site put together.”

    Jeez Shane, TB Queensland will be conflicted. You’re mouthing all the correct opinions, but you’re a Catlick!

  21. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:13 am

    “I can tell you where the hate and vilification started and that was your question.”

    I didn’t ask a question. Anyway, hatred of gays goes back much further than 40 years if you know about that thing called the Old Testament. My statement was about the upcoming plebiscite and the fact that the hate speech has already started streaming from the mouths of the marriage equality supporters. Sadly those hypocrites so upset by the possibility of hate speech and uncivilised debate have nothing to say when it emanates from their side.

  22. TB Queensland permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:22 am

    if you are a public figure dont ever bite into an onion or you’ll be reviled and ridiculed by the Left

    You really can’t tell the difference between lampoon and hate????

    Would you like to place a bet on that ?

    Can’t be you … wally … you said recently that your weren’t a catlik …???

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    No matter how much proof you provide it is all lies.

    That sounds familiar where’s, neel?

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Jeez Shane, TB Queensland will be conflicted. You’re mouthing all the correct opinions, but you’re a Catlick!!

    You wish, ToSY … do keep up …

    … if you stretch your mind back you may remember that the Blogmeister was brought up catlik too …

    I was brought up and attended a cofe school …

    Its the HYPOCRISY and ACTIONS of practising catliks that I rail against … blinded by faith is so true …

    Reading between the lines I’d guess Shane too is also disillusioned with organised religion and all their methods of indoctrination …

    And I think you meant “catlik” …

  23. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:22 am

    I’m not trolling, reb. I’m really conflicted now. I support marriage equality and will probably vote for it but in the process I will be giving the Big Queer fascists both barrels, particularly on the free speech front.

    I’ve never liked political elites and their contempt for the great unwashed. And that is behind the move to deny ordinary Australians a direct say on this issue.

  24. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:25 am

    We are currently having a RC.
    The same dogbotherers who have given protection and safe haven to paedophilia, child abuse, child rape and sexual assault for decades are now saying it is the welfare of the children that concerns them, the hypocrisy is astounding.

  25. TB Queensland permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:25 am

    I’ve never liked political elites … that is behind the move to deny ordinary Australians a direct say on this issue.

    What bollocks … Australians don’t get a direct say, about going to go to war!

    Nor Pollies paypackets!

    Most Australians want pollies to do their jobs … not waste $175,000,000 on a plebiscite that the same pollies can ignore …

    Logically its ludicrous !

  26. September 15, 2016 10:26 am

    “”And that is behind the move to deny ordinary Australians a direct say on this issue.””

    So when do we all get to vote on your marriage?

  27. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:27 am

    Seems to me, TB, that the elite caste are shitting themselves that ordinary folk may have the opportunity to disagree with their betters.

  28. shaneinqld permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:30 am

    Tony.

    Boarding School was easy compared to my 5 years before that with my Grandmother who wanted me to be a Priest at any cost.

    Many Catlicks share my opinions.

    It all depends on how you word your questions as to whether they share the same opinion. Except those extremists of course who have hijacked the bible into claiming it praises wealth and greed and theft from workers and pillage of the planet in order to satisfy their own ideology.

    Having said that I have gradually formed an opinion over the last 10 years that it is all a fairytale and can no longer believe in a higher being. I think it is simply our ancestors way of explaining something they could not explain at the time. We have science for most things now.

  29. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:30 am

    I’ve never liked political elites and their contempt for the great unwashed. And that is behind the move to deny ordinary Australians a direct say on this issue.

    Isn’t that what our elected parliamentary representatives are for? What they get paid the big bucks [and gifts + expenses + entitlements] for?
    Are you now saying that we don’t have a democratic government?

  30. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:31 am

    “So when do we all get to vote on your marriage?”

    You don’t. It is none of your business. I don’t give a shit what the state thinks a marriage is and whether or not I’m married. The law has nothing to do with my marriage.

    But I do think that if the state is going to be in the marriage business then due process dictates it be available regardless of gender.

  31. Walrus permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:32 am

    “…..you said recently that your weren’t a catlik …???”

    No…..I said that I dont care much for religion even the one I was brought up as.

  32. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:33 am

    “Are you now saying that we don’t have a democratic government?

    I don’t have a particular problem with a plebiscite. Democracy may take many forms but it is hard to argue that a plebiscite on a major social issue is undemocratic. Unless you are an elitist, apparently.

  33. shaneinqld permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:33 am

    Apologies SB I confirm you did not ask a question.

    However you did make this comment.

    “So if someone on the other side says something intemperate just remember who started with the hate speech.”

    I was pointing out to you how long ago the hate speech started from the religious right.

  34. Walrus permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:34 am

    “……..that the elite caste are shitting themselves that ordinary folk may have the opportunity to disagree with their betters.”

    Exactly

    Have they heard of a woman called Hanson and a guy called Trump ?

  35. September 15, 2016 10:34 am

    “Having said that I have gradually formed an opinion over the last 10 years that it is all a fairytale and can no longer believe in a higher being.”

    You’ve recanted then? That might make you acceptable to TB Queensland, who is this site’s self-appointed expert on all things religious. (He’s been reading between the lines, apparently.)

  36. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:35 am

    Thank you Shane. I understand where you are coming from.

  37. Walrus permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:36 am

    “I don’t have a particular problem with a plebiscite”

    No do I.

    It’s a pity it’s restricted to just one question. How about throwing in an equally contentious issue like Euthanasia ?

  38. Walrus permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:38 am

    “Walrus and Rectum are just trolling for a response now… ”

    Yeah whatever…………………the typical Twitter response

  39. September 15, 2016 10:42 am

    “”You don’t. It is none of your business.””

    But apparently, my marriage is your business.

    Go figure.

  40. September 15, 2016 10:43 am

    “”It’s a pity it’s restricted to just one question.””

    Indeed. Maybe we should just dispense with our elected representatives altogether and just have polls for everything.

  41. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:43 am

    It all depends on how you word your questions as to whether they share the same opinion. Except those extremists of course who have hijacked the bible into claiming it praises wealth and greed and theft from workers and pillage of the planet in order to satisfy their own ideology.

    Yes, the new generation of dogbothers, the evangelist types who have found the perfect recipe for riches, the worship of the almighty dollar to be sung from the rooftops “Greed is good and so are you”

    https://www.crikey.com.au/2016/09/13/the-government-has-no-agenda-but-the-far-right-certainly-has/
    Justin Harding
    2 days ago
    …The Liberal Party – which is really The Conservative Party here in Oz – is a thoroughly right of centre party with extreme right wing elements. But here’s the rub. Being a liberal or a conservative actually means you believe in fuck-all beyond the continuation of the hegemony of white male capitalists, and doing whatever the fuck you have to in order to perpetuate that state of affairs. Once you are self-indoctrinated to acceptance of this obscenity it’s all as easy as accommodating a well-lubricated and under-ripe banana…

  42. September 15, 2016 10:46 am

    “Maybe we should just dispense with our elected representatives altogether and just have polls for everything.”

    Why hasn’t someone thought of this before?

  43. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:47 am

    Indeed. Maybe we should just dispense with our elected representatives altogether and just have polls for everything.

    I think that would save us a lot of money.

    But would they be non-binding? 🙂

  44. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:49 am

    ” I think it is simply our ancestors way of explaining something they could not explain at the time. We have science for most things now.”

    There is that aspect. There is also a respectable argument that religion evolved as a necessary method of social control particularly in the first cities.

    With religion God can watch your every action. And your neighbours have a standard to judge your behaviour and criticise your conduct. Human nature is like that. It drives conformity which is probably necessary to an extent to allow the formation of complex urban societies.

    These days religion is being undermined by science and losing credibility. Secular religions are evolving to control every word and thought we have. Hence the great Church of Leftism with its subsidiaries like the Global Warming Cult of Gaia and the Religion of Hurt Feelings with Mongrel Triggs as High Priestess and Grand Inquisitor.

  45. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:53 am

    “But apparently, my marriage is your business.”

    No its not. In my view marriage is performed by the parties making a permanent commitment to each other.

    As I said if the State is in the marriage business it should be available to couples regardless of gender.

  46. shaneinqld permalink
    September 15, 2016 11:00 am

    “These days religion is being undermined by science and losing credibility. Secular religions are evolving to control every word and thought we have”

    I agree SB however we are also seeing the rise of extremists in all religions including Christianity to hold onto what they believe no matter what the scientific evidence provides. Like those Christians who still think everything was created in 7 days and Noahs Ark carried 2 of every animal on the planet while water drowned all the other human beings. Watch the religious programmes in the mornings and all you see are so called christian religions wanting your money.

    Even the most wonderful of priests at boarding school who I admired immensely said these were simply fables with possibly a small element of truth and could not be taken literally.

    By the way he was the most learned priest I have ever met with numerous university degrees including astronomy. He was the very first greenie I ever met and he would be horrified at what is happening to our planet and the greed in the name of money. Drove like a maniac but that is another story. He demise was the day the world lost a truly great man.

  47. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 15, 2016 11:07 am

    …There is that aspect. There is also a respectable argument that religion evolved as a necessary method of social control particularly in the first cities…

    We have grown up, evolved now and can think for ourselves, we don’t need the social control of an ancient religion based on fear, gossip, punishment, misogyny and homophobia, there’s plenty of other rules, policies and police to do that, too many of them..

    Religion is used to prop up the supremacy of the male, I would say that the homophobes are hate filled extremists, cultural and religious terrorists.

  48. shaneinqld permalink
    September 15, 2016 11:21 am

    I would disagree KL. It is not all supremacy of the male. My Grandmother was an over bearing, totally dominating fire breathing Matriarch of monumental proportions and the most bigoted religious catholic I ever encountered. My first experiences with her were when she taught me and my sister to sing “Catholics, Catholics ring the bell while all the Protestants go to hell”. I still loved her but she really was the you will burn in hell for eternity type of Catholic. Having said that it was the way she was brought up herself. My poor Grandfather usually hid in the garage most of the day LOL

  49. shaneinqld permalink
    September 15, 2016 11:23 am

    She was also a good shot with a block of fire wood and collected me in the back of the head as I ran down the hallway from the kitchen. Went down like a bag of cement.

  50. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 15, 2016 11:30 am

    Christian literalism hasn’t survived the enlightenment and the scientific revolution. For some, clinging on to religion requires belief in extraordinary and unscientific things hence geocentrism and creationism. I don’t really care about the historical or scientific accuracy of the scriptures. I have a more post-modern approach.

    OTOH as Chesterton noted “When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything.”

  51. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 15, 2016 11:36 am

    “We have grown up, evolved now and can think for ourselves”

    I’m a fan of Pinker’s theory in The Better Angels of Our Nature. Having said that, I think that most leftist politics is irrational and essentially based on hubris.

  52. TB Queensland permalink
    September 15, 2016 11:43 am

    Seems to me, TB, that the elite caste are shitting themselves that ordinary folk may have the opportunity to disagree with their betters.

    Just who are the “elite class” and “ordinary folk” and “betters” …

    but it is hard to argue that a plebiscite on a major social issue is undemocratic.

    It would be democratic if the politicians had to adhere to the result … its simply an expensive poll … that pollies do NOT have to follow … and $175,000,000 could go along way in all sorts of ways …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Indeed … black stone for no and white for yes … we could get the ABS and IBM to set up the website!

    Shimples!

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Thank you Shane. I understand where you are coming from.

    Mmmmmm … 🙂

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Classic …

    There is also a respectable argument that religion evolved as a necessary method of social control particularly in the first cities.

    And nothing’s changed it continues to wreak its sinister havoc around the world and its not respectable at all … calling it that simply perpetrates the control process … its so frighteningly obvious it would be funny if it didn’t cause so much harm …

    Secular religions as soon as the oxymorons hit the sentence I start to chuckle … then comes the Marvel Comic “facts” … (along with ToSY’s cartoons … )

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    By the way he was the most learned priest I have ever met

    I’ve met two priests who had a similar take on the fairytales, Shane, one was a padre at Singleton when I was doing my recruit training – we had some very interesting discussions …

    … the other was the priest who converted my sister (she too had a cofe upbringing) … she was divorced and had to have her first marriage annulled by the Vatican and then become a catlik before she could marry again into a very rich family – then all hell broke loose … for the rest of us … you don’t need a cult to change someone’s personality …

    She introduced me to the priest and I was really disconcerted by his interpretations (quite logical and scientific) and the nonsense that was going on around him … also very enlightening discussions …

    I still believe actions speak louder than words …

    All organised religions in general (the majors at least) demonstrate greedy, cruel, controlling and mean spiritedness to me … (there are always spotlights of exception of course)

  53. TB Queensland permalink
    September 15, 2016 11:49 am

    I would disagree KL

    Shane, while I agree (and fins it strange) that many women perpetrate religious “belief” from the sidelines catholic, jewish, muslim – even the freemasons are all controlled by men … in the 21st Century I would expect far more equality … we haven’t really come that far …

    Although I would have been burnt at the stake in the past … I suspect there would be a couple of commenters here quite happy to re-ignite the practice!

  54. Tom R permalink
    September 15, 2016 12:00 pm

    “When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything.”

    or, science

  55. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 15, 2016 12:00 pm

    I would disagree KL. It is not all supremacy of the male. My Grandmother was an over bearing, totally dominating fire breathing Matriarch of monumental proportions and the most bigoted religious catholic I ever encountered.

    I would have to differ from you then shane, these women are the enablers, the co-dependents if you like, they too believe in the superiority of the male, the patriarchy, they’ve been taught to from early childhood with the bible bashing [that’s why religion likes to get them really young] and they are as equally determined to maintain it on behalf of the males they serve

  56. shaneinqld permalink
    September 15, 2016 12:02 pm

    TB Or you would have been thrown into the river to drown and if you sank you were guilty and if you floated you were innocent. Sadly you are always guilty as a drowned body sinks.

  57. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 15, 2016 12:06 pm

    She was also a good shot with a block of fire wood and collected me in the back of the head as I ran down the hallway from the kitchen. Went down like a bag of cement.

    Yes, the nuns were pretty violent too, all in the name of their lord and master and under the rule of the priests.

  58. shaneinqld permalink
    September 15, 2016 12:12 pm

    The nuns were (for want of a better word) violent for probably the first 2 years of my schooling. After that time ( which I think happened at the same time as Vatican II ) there seemed to be a mellowing and the fire and brimstone was toned down and the God is love period seemed to begin.

  59. September 15, 2016 12:38 pm

    NEARLY 60% OF VENEZUELANS WANT OUT OF THE COUNTRY

    What? They must be crazy!

  60. shaneinqld permalink
    September 15, 2016 12:41 pm

    Tony. That’s what happens when you create a massive concentration in wealth to the rich. The poor elect extremists as they see no future. It then becomes a disaster for everyone. Or there is a revolution and the wealth are executed or beheaded.

  61. shaneinqld permalink
    September 15, 2016 12:43 pm

    I think you would get the same result for many countries around the world. Not just Venezuelans which I presume you are using to prop up the anti socialism hysteria.

  62. Tom R permalink
    September 15, 2016 12:45 pm

    What is it with people’s pre-occupation with Venezuela?

    And do they wilfully ignore the fact that it was a basket case prior to its socialist upheavals?

    But let’s not mention the Nordic countries whose socialist programs has created some of the strongest economies in the world

  63. TB Queensland permalink
    September 15, 2016 12:48 pm

    “When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything.”

    Anything reasonable and attestable. And there’s a problem with that … ?

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    After that time ( which I think happened at the same time as Vatican II ) there seemed to be a mellowing and the fire and brimstone was toned down and the God is love period seemed to begin.

    Good lord only so recently?

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I see SA is back … when you run out of things to say just mention South America … nudge, nudge, wink, wink, know wot I mean?

  64. TB Queensland permalink
    September 15, 2016 12:49 pm

    But let’s not mention the Nordic countries whose socialist programs has created some of the strongest economies in the world

    I think its called The Mulberry Bush Argument, TR … 😉

  65. Tom R permalink
    September 15, 2016 12:51 pm

    Wow, even perennial Union hater joyce is against a plebiscite.

    Will this move any of the Usual Suspects?

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/sep/15/qantas-ceo-alan-joyce-opposes-unnecessary-marriage-equality-plebiscite?CMP=share_btn_tw

  66. Tom R permalink
    September 15, 2016 12:51 pm

    The Mulberry Bush Argument

    I think we’ve been around that one before?

  67. September 15, 2016 12:52 pm

    “But let’s not mention the Nordic countries whose socialist programs has created some of the strongest economies in the world”

    Not according to them.

    “I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy.” ~ Danish Prime Minister Lars Løkke Rasmussen

  68. September 15, 2016 1:00 pm

    “What is it with people’s pre-occupation with Venezuela?”

    Because it’s contemporary proof of the myth that socialism makes people better off. It’s capitalism that does that.

  69. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 15, 2016 1:02 pm

    Not just Venezuelans which I presume you are using to prop up the anti socialism hysteria.

    yes, presumably, venezuela gets a good mention at times like this.

    “I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism.

    That would be the extreme right. Anyone who isn’t a hardline capitalist zealot in their eyes is a communist. Ridiculous really.

  70. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 15, 2016 1:11 pm

    “But let’s not mention the Nordic countries whose socialist programs has created some of the strongest economies in the world”

    That sounds like leftist wishful thinking, Tom R. You got any evidence (a) that the economies are the strongest in the world and (b) socialism made them that way?

  71. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 15, 2016 1:23 pm

    venezuela gets a good mention at times like this.”

    Venezuela got plenty of good mentions when Chavez was implementing his great Bolivarian
    Revolution. A menagerie of the usual suspects petitioned the Great Leader to come to Australia to teach us the way to prosperity through socialism. Every leftist and their dog was on the bandwagon.

    Now the results of those socialist policies are clear for all the world to see and, funnily enough, the left doesn’t want to talk about it and more than any other failed socialist experiment.

  72. Walrus permalink
    September 15, 2016 1:24 pm

    “But let’s not mention the Nordic countries whose socialist programs has created some of the strongest economies in the world”

    Is that so………………?

    Well lets have a little look at da big list then………………………………Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm………………….I’m still looking………….looking………….looking…………….

    “…..Some other economies that are a part of the “trillion-dollar” club and have the potential to make it to the top 10 going ahead are South Korea ($1.38 trillion), Russia ($1.32 trillion), Australia ($1.22 trillion), Spain ($1.2 trillion), and Mexico ($1.14 trillion)………….”

    WOW……….WOW……………..WOW…………………..seems like they are not even nudging to get in

    http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/022415/worlds-top-10-economies.asp

  73. Walrus permalink
    September 15, 2016 1:34 pm

    “Denmark: Denmark regained traction in the first quarter of this year, as improvements in the external sector coupled with rising private and public spending caused GDP growth to rebound and the economy to exit its technical recession”

    So Denmark in Recession

    “Finland: The EU’s northernmost economy continued its fragile recovery in Q2, after suffering in recent years from a decline in its key industries ….”

    So Finland is also stuffed

    “Norway: The Norwegian economy is going through rough times but there may be a silver lining…..”

    So Norway is stuffed

    “Sweden :The Swedish economy has shifted into a lower gear this year, expanding at consistently lower rates than in 2015.”

    So Sweden’s not looking very good either

    In fact there goes the whole fucking neighbourhood …………LOL

    So much for……….

    .“But let’s not mention the Nordic countries whose socialist programs has created some of the strongest economies in the world”

    That statement does not hold up to even the most basic scrutiny

    http://www.focus-economics.com/regions/nordic-economies

  74. Walrus permalink
    September 15, 2016 1:35 pm

    “………and, funnily enough, the left doesn’t want to talk about it”

    Mmmmmmm……….we seem to get a lot of that around here

  75. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 15, 2016 2:07 pm

    I thought so, Walrus. Socialism’s greatest “contribution” is the 100+ million it killed last century. And the remarkable thing is that pro-Soviet stooges like Comrade Rhiannon are quite at home in the Greens.

  76. TB Queensland permalink
    September 15, 2016 3:15 pm

    As capitalism hasn’t “killed” anyone in the last century … GMAFB …

    … a plebiscite I can see/hear the BS now …

    And BTW socialism is not communism … and capitalism is just another ism … but all three do not work on their own … a combination works best …

    Ideally a combination of capitalism to generate prosperity and advancement coupled with socialism for fairness, future development of people and freedom is a way forward …

    Not the 1984 version either …

    Nor this …

  77. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 15, 2016 3:35 pm

    “As capitalism hasn’t “killed” anyone in the last century … “

    Capitalism has brought prosperity to hundreds of millions recently. Socialism never has and never will. The meteoric rise in prosperity since the industrial revolution is all about free trade and nothing to do with socialism:

    And you need to learn the difference between socialism and social welfare. I’ve schooled you on this before:

    Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment.

    The greatest mass-killer of all time is that form of Socialism known as communism. There are still a lot of really dumb dead-shits who fell for the communist totalitarian fantasy. Those scum, like Rhiannon, are not worth shitting on. And loonys like Roz Ward preached Marxist moronitude as an advisor to the Andrews government until she was outed.

    We almost agree on this: Ideally a combination of capitalism to generate prosperity and advancement coupled with socialism a limited amount of Welfare for fairness, future development of people and freedom is a way forward …

  78. Tom R permalink
    September 15, 2016 3:37 pm

    .seems like they are not even nudging to get in

    You are mistaking size for strength.

    That statement does not hold up to even the most basic scrutiny

    Of course, because, the rest of the world is just powering on, aint it. Read the other countries in that report before getting ahead of yourself.

    And, of course, I’ll elaborate, ‘strong economy’ (to me) indicates not just wealth, but citizens happiness and productivity.

  79. Walrus permalink
    September 15, 2016 3:43 pm

    “….‘strong economy’ (to me)…..”

    Of course…….we are quite used to you quickly redefining things when the facts dont fit

  80. Walrus permalink
    September 15, 2016 3:47 pm

    OK…….lets play “strongest economies” then……………………

    http://gazettereview.com/2016/06/strongest-economies-in-the-world/

  81. September 15, 2016 4:03 pm

    Alan Joyce’s opinion matters now that it suits the narrative. When he speaks as CEO of Qantas he’s the Leprechaun.

  82. September 15, 2016 4:11 pm

    If you say so.

  83. September 15, 2016 4:17 pm

    It’s the hypocrisy that gets me. He’d no doubt be the darling of the twittersphere today. Just a few weeks ago he was an Irish c**t.

  84. September 15, 2016 4:23 pm

    Today.

    Not today.

  85. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    September 15, 2016 4:31 pm

    I’d be quite happy if a couple of coalition MPs cross the floor and vote in favour of a change to the Marriage Act.

    If that doesn’t happen then there is no reason that I can see to oppose a plebiscite

  86. Walrus permalink
    September 15, 2016 4:56 pm

    The first examples of hate speech have been uttered……LOL

    Greens MP Adam Bandt, this week warned Christian groups would “spread their hate-speech through a plebiscite”…………….. then described “bigots like Lyle Shelton from the Australian Christian Lobby”.

    Bernard Keane of Crikey, …… “for Australia’s LGBTI communities, the plebiscite will be a highly personal attack”, then described Lyle Shelton as a “creep” and “fact-free hypocrite” …. “obsessed with sex” …. “a nauseating piece of filth”.

    John Birmingham, …………describing anti gay marriage campaigners as “a sweating pig circus of morons and bigots” seeking to “mangulate their hate boners in the marriage equality plebiscite”.

    Equal Loves campaigner Anthony Wallace, ………“Tony Abbott, stick your plebiscite where the sun don’t shine.”

    Yep…………the hate speech was inevitably going to come from its experts

  87. September 15, 2016 4:59 pm

    Someone Is Learning How to Take Down the Internet

    “We don’t know who is doing this, but it feels like a large nation state. China or Russia would be my first guesses.”

  88. September 15, 2016 5:12 pm

    Just two years for attempted murder? Oh, I get it. ‘They’ wouldn’t want to send the message that neutralising Trump is a bad thing, necessarily.

    British Man Who Tried to Shoot Donald Trump Pleads Guilty

    “Michael Steven Sandford is facing two years in U.S. prison and deportation”

  89. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 15, 2016 5:13 pm

    Just a few weeks ago he was an Irish c**t.

    Yep remember the abuse Joyce got for what he did a Qantas? Well now Qantas is running a profit something lefties do not like. Yet to see an apology from the people who abused him.

  90. Walrus permalink
    September 15, 2016 5:26 pm

    “Well now Qantas is running a profit something lefties do not like.”

    Dont call me Lefty but he still fails to impress me. He’s running at a profit due to the oil glut plus he wrote half his fucking fleet off in one fucking year.

  91. September 15, 2016 5:35 pm

    “He’s running at a profit due to the oil glut”

    Glut? That can’t be right. They told me the science was settled!

  92. Tom R permalink
    September 15, 2016 5:39 pm

    It’s the hypocrisy that gets me. He’d no doubt be the darling of the twittersphere today. Just a few weeks ago he was an Irish c**t.

    What hypocrisy? I don’t give a shit what joyce says, nothing he says will sway me. I just wondered if it did of those who worshipped his destruction of thousands of Australian jobs will consider his words now?

    OK…….lets play “strongest economies” then……………………

    I get the feeling you’re playing with yerself again

  93. Tom R permalink
    September 15, 2016 5:47 pm

    China or Russia would be my first guesses

    The ABS can do it with a simple app!

  94. shaneinqld permalink
    September 15, 2016 5:52 pm

    No matter how you look at it most of the Nordic countries are in a far better financial and health and happiness position of its citizens than the USA in almost every measurement you could name. But of course it is only the massive wealth at the top and how little tax the rich can possibly get away with that we should worry about and none of the namby pamby socialist lefty loving statistics of average life span, health of citizens, how the poor are treated, what services are provided at the same standard for all citizens of the country etc etc

  95. shaneinqld permalink
    September 15, 2016 5:57 pm

    Alan Joyce is a fraud of epic proportions, I even told my customers in advance a number of years before it happened that Joyce would create a massive writedown creating a major loss for the company and blame it on the unions and the staff. The massive loss would frighten everyone into believing the company need massive changes or it would cease to exist. Guess what, that is exactly what he did. I also predicted that a few years later he would announce a massive profit and be reward with a massive bonus and be hailed a hero and saviour when in fact he has lost the company over $500,000,000 since becoming CEO and guess what I was right again. customers asked me did I buy any shares. Told them I would not purchase shares on the premise of manipulation and lies by dishonest management at the top of a company.

  96. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 15, 2016 5:59 pm

    Why Scandinavian countries are the happiest in the world:
    http://m.economictimes.com/news/international/world-news/why-scandinavian-countries-are-the-happiest-in-the-world/articleshow/51439397.cms

  97. September 15, 2016 6:12 pm

    “No matter how you look at it most of the Nordic countries are in a far better financial and health and happiness position of its citizens than the USA in almost every measurement you could name.”

    That is (mostly) true. But what puzzles me is why you choose the US? Why not that notorious capitalist hell-hole Australia?

  98. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 15, 2016 6:20 pm

    Dont call me Lefty but he still fails to impress me. He’s running at a profit due to the oil glut plus he wrote half his fucking fleet off in one fucking year.

    Yes but i thought Qantas made a profit but pays no tax because of the writeoffs. I do not think writing off ” half his fucking fleet off in one fucking year.” had anything to do with Qantas making a profit.

    Am i wrong?

  99. September 15, 2016 6:30 pm

    I think I meant hellhole.

  100. TB Queensland permalink
    September 15, 2016 6:33 pm

    Why not that notorious capitalist hell-hole Australia?

    Because we are more likely to become a USA clone than a Venezuelan one … !

    Duh!

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    And you need to learn the difference between socialism and social welfare. I’ve schooled you on this before:

    “I’ve schooled you in this before”?

    Now were I you, or even wally, I might reply and call you an arrogant, patronising fascist ???? … however, being polite … I’ll ignore your usual inflammatory remarks and siply say … read above!

    And I will remind you once again (not school you) … that capitalism is not a political system, communism, socialism (and perhaps I should have used the term “democratic socialism”) and democracy are …

    The economic system that constantly eludes you is the “command system” …

    The only economic system remaining is barter – unless you include feudal – there must be some third world countries engaged in that …

    Strangely enough … true democracy includes caring for those worse off than yourself … in fact I feel guilty for my society that 1/3 of all age pensioners are living below the poverty line … and angry that 50% of the wealth in my society is hoarded by just 1% of the population …

    Capitalism is fine but the bastardised version of a free market we now live with needs to be flushed and cleaned …

    As I’ve said before …. and will continue to say …

    I prefer to thrive in a society rather than survive in a Liberal economy …

  101. TB Queensland permalink
    September 15, 2016 6:35 pm

    “”””Am i wrong?””””

    Absolutely!

    Ask any ex-QANTAS employees!

  102. September 15, 2016 6:38 pm

    “Because we are more likely to become a USA clone than a Venezuelan one … !”

    Nonsense. We are geographically and demographically completely different to the USA. Why would we become a clone of it – or any other country for that matter?

  103. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    September 15, 2016 7:01 pm

    People that downplay the role of Joyce in turning around the former basket case of Qantas really have no idea what they’re talking about.

    Similarly they have no idea how unions were totally split during the ALAEA dispute and the unions represting the engineering trades had no time for that union hogging all the good jobs

  104. TB Queensland permalink
    September 15, 2016 7:15 pm

    Why would we become a clone of it – or any other country for that matter?

    Exactly! So why do people keep bringing up South America!

    Have you been to the States? ‘Cause if you haven’t I’ve got some pretty uncomfortable news for you … and it begins with Coke and continues with Maccas … and on and on …

    We are even changing our laws and the way we sue to USA extremes …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    People that downplay the role of Joyce in turning around the former basket case of Qantas really have no idea what they’re talking about.

    Yes we do … you don’t … shimples …

  105. September 15, 2016 7:17 pm

    “Have you been to the States?”

    Yes, I was there last year as it happens. What is your point?

  106. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 15, 2016 7:21 pm

    Have you been to the States? ‘Cause if you haven’t I’ve got some pretty uncomfortable news for you

    I lived there for 6 years. It was great. lots of beggars in San Francisco because if they lived in Chicago they would die from the cold. Lots of low paid workers but everything was cheap.

    Lots of people want to live in the USA. I have never seen anybody who wants to leave.

  107. September 15, 2016 7:28 pm

    “Lots of people want to live in the USA. I have never seen anybody who wants to leave.”

    Good point Neil. Trump is not proposing a wall to keep people in (unlike the Berlin Wall).

  108. Tom of Melbwourne permalink
    September 15, 2016 7:34 pm

    … and it begins with Coke and continues with Maccas … and on and on …

    That’s probably more indicative of the places you choose to visit TB, than it is of the US.

    I go to the US quite regularly and I’m saying that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

  109. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    September 15, 2016 7:53 pm

    Yes we do … you don’t … shimples …

    Not from qhat I can see

  110. Walrus permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:05 pm

    Why are all of you anti plebiscite people so fucking frightened of hate speech when we are all protected by 18c ?

    Giggle 😄

  111. TB Queensland permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:06 pm

    Yes, I was there last year as it happens. What is your point?

    I go to the US quite regularly and I’m saying that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    My point is that Australia is edging closer to that crumbling Western Empire every day …

    But I’m not surprised you can’t see that … travelling so much it must become confusing …

    That’s probably more indicative of the places you choose to visit TB, than it is of the US.

    Probably not … but anyone with half a brain could see that …

    Funny at one time that type of comment might have been funny but this place really has become snarky … and I confess to falling into the same trap …

    Its getting harder to be polite tho’ …

  112. TB Queensland permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:06 pm

    Giggle 😄

    “clink” wally …

  113. Walrus permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:10 pm

    “I get the feeling you’re playing with yerself again”

    And I get the feeling that yet again you are sprinting away from your comparison to the “Nordic Model”

    I’ll just sit here and laugh at you

  114. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:22 pm

    My point is that Australia is edging closer to that crumbling Western Empire every day …

    The USA gave me a job for 6 years. The place is OK. They are getting 30,000 people/month from South America. I have yet to meet anybody who wants to leave the USA.

  115. Hotel California permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:24 pm

    Good point Neil. Trump is not proposing a wall to keep people in (unlike the Berlin Wall).

  116. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    September 15, 2016 10:57 pm

    TB if you made such a generalisation about almost any other country you’d be called a racist.

    The US is diverse in it’s demographics and history but you choose to portray it as all coke and maccas. Exactly which part are you referring to?

    Did you actually get past Disneyland ?

    And TB if you choose to make ill informed and deliberately provocative comments, it really seems a little disingenuous to then complain of snarkiness!

  117. PSI permalink
    September 16, 2016 12:50 am

    (Yeah, TB, don’t be racist.)

  118. shaneinqld permalink
    September 16, 2016 7:05 am

    Tony.

    I chose the USA because it is the bastion of Capitalism. It is the extreme version of capitalism currently on the planet. It claims to be the leader of the free world. It claims to be the perfect example of what a country should be. Most of the time it is the one that enters a country on a premise of freedom of citizens, but only seems to do so when there are assets needed for their own economy or to protect their own political ideology. The (in their minds) envy of every other country in the world. I have family there I know exactly what happens to an Aussie citizen that marries a marine and then he leaves her for another woman, with 2 young children and tries to have her deported back to Australia from her children. She raises them in a caravan, is not entitled to welfare as she is not a US citizen and works for $3.50 an hour at a factory sewing shirts.
    A country that calls anyone visiting an alien seems to have separated its own human beings from the rest of humanity.

    Neil

    If you don’t know of 1 American who would leave their country if the opportunity arose then you do not know many. Most cannot leave because they have no money to leave with. Most do not even have a passport because they could not afford to leave the mainland.

  119. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 16, 2016 7:12 am

    https://twitter.com/barryofarrell

    Lots of low paid workers but everything was cheap.

    Is that what workers in australia should be aspiring to? Sleeping in their car so they can easier manage their 3 part-time jobs that give them a non-living wage, dependent on tips?

    All so people can have loads of toss-away, cheap bling.

    I’d prefer we never got like that. I’d rather pay more tax and things were not as cheap.

    Our leaders are pretty much “all the way with the USA” on most policy and our political parties run their organisations on the US model.

    Who knows, when we split into a north-south divide, we can put up our own wall across the land and have all the rednecks like hanson, christensen and the rest of the extreme right separated from us by barbed wire – what’s not to llike?

  120. shaneinqld permalink
    September 16, 2016 7:47 am

    So true KL. We are also disposing of items at breakneck speed and using up our finite resources in the name of continued sales. Items that used to last for many years are now breaking down in less than one third that time, simply due to changes in construction and design to create a failure much earlier to necessitate a sale. A metal piece replaced by plastic, a cog made with smaller or larger teeth, a motor built to burnout much faster etc etc. Landfill and mountainous toxic waste dumps are popping up all over the planet as we slowly sink in our own self made mess.

  121. September 16, 2016 8:31 am

    “We are also disposing of items at breakneck speed and using up our finite resources in the name of continued sales.”

    Shane, name a resource that has actually been depleted. I’ve looked, but can’t find one.

  122. TB Queensland permalink
    September 16, 2016 8:47 am

    Let’s get this nonsense out of the way first …

    TB if you made such a generalisation about almost any other country you’d be called a racist.

    America is not a race … its a country of many races … like Australia …

    You and others here keep on trying to brand me as a racist … ain’t gonna happen ’cause I’m not … I don’t care what colour, culture, language, or even your beliefs are as long as you are a good guy … if your not I’ll tell you … I have had or have friends who are Jews, Christians, Muslims and a Buddhist … Aboriginal, French, German, PNG, Italian, Sicilian, Bosnian, Canadian, Brazilian and Chilean … and a mate who was whelped in the US of A (ex-military)! And believes we are emulating the country he “escaped from” (his words) day by slow day …

    And if you haven’t had a Big Breakfast at LAX before the QANTAS Lounge opens on you way home you don’t know the US … BTW I only visited the US on business no time for Disney nor would I if visiting … I prefer the wilderness …

    Exactly which part are you referring to?

    Ah … let me count the (subtle) ways … we’d better bullet point them …

    ♦ Fast foods – KFC, Dominos, Subway, Pizza Hut, the list goes on …

    ♦ The same fast food companies attempting to infiltrate school tuckshops and subsidise schools Americanised

    ♦ Common law reduced to statutes (mainly tort law) Americanised

    ♦ Financial service focussing on sales (ie loans) not service Americanised

    ♦ Public utilities privatised/corporatized Americanised

    ♦ Going to war with America – any war anytime

    ♦ American military bases on Aussie soil

    ♦ Contemporary music Americanised (I just spent a couple of days on Ytube looking for soundtrack material)

    ♦ TV shows 99% American

    ♦ Streaming services 99% American

    ♦ “Movies” 99% American

    ♦ Language —- eg movies – films, sidewalk – footpath, hi – g’day, cookie – biscuit, sneakers – sandshoes, buddy – mate … I’ll list ’em as I hear ’em … there’s a few and I’m sure you know some … TV – the tellie …

    ♦ Listen closely to teenagers talking (at 100 kph) and you will notice a rolling “R” developing as in Americanised (TV, music, film)

    ♦ A PM who attempts to use a Presidential Logo in an election – Americanised

    ♦ Right wing shock jocks Americanised

    ♦ An upsurge in right wing christian missionary politicking Americanised

    ♦ The way we treat our returned ADF personnel Americanised

    ♦ The old US sales pitches – “wait there’s more”, “would you like with that”, “I’ll be in your area on — or — ” … I sold insurance for a couple of months and was taught the 1960/70’s Yankee sales pitches … awful crap …

    ♦ Thank goodness we don’t like their cars – who buys a jeep???

    There are many more and I’ll list them as I remember them …

    What you can be sure of … we are a lo-o-o-o-ng way from Sharia Law and Chinese Communism and Venezuelan bankruptcy …

    The USA is a fun place – on the surface … I just don’t want to see Australia reduced to a crippled capitalist state … we are so much better than that!

    Unfortunately the only thing that never changes is change itself …

  123. Value Judgement Value Depletion permalink
    September 16, 2016 8:47 am

    (Glut? That can’t be right. They told me the science was settled!

    So it was.)

  124. TB Queensland permalink
    September 16, 2016 8:49 am

    ♦ Attempts to control or preferably destroy unions Americanised

    ♦ Changes to media ownership Americanised

  125. shaneinqld permalink
    September 16, 2016 8:52 am

    Tony

    I said using up our finite resources, which is not the same as claiming they have been depleted.

    Any resource that is finite will be depleted eventually and why do we need to use those resources faster than truly needed to achieve sales of items that fail far more than they used to. Most items constructed are now disposable and not repairable. We have become a disposable wasteful society simply so increased sales can be achieved. Buy a toaster for $12 it stops working in 2 days, back to the shop, a new one handed over the old one thrown in the waste for landfill.

  126. TB Queensland permalink
    September 16, 2016 8:57 am

    Shane, name a resource that has actually been depleted. I’ve looked, but can’t find one.

    Fish is a common loss, ToSY, the North Sea Cod I ate as a kid has been depleted …

    Subsistence farmers in PNG lost a lot of the farming resource to mining and logging permanently – the topsoil – … and in South America …

    Even if recycled minerals are slowly being depleted and cannot be replaced …

  127. September 16, 2016 9:03 am

    Any resource that is finite will be depleted eventually

    Or substituted. Human ingenuity should not be underestimated.

  128. September 16, 2016 9:05 am

    The prophets of doom were predicting oi depletion. We now have a glut mainly due to innovative extraction techniques. I’ll believe a resource can be depleted when one actually is depleted. Predictions are worthless.

  129. September 16, 2016 9:06 am

    *oil depletion

  130. September 16, 2016 9:07 am

    “Fish is a common loss, ToSY, the North Sea Cod I ate as a kid has been depleted …”

    To quote an old saying, there are plenty of other fish in the sea.

  131. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    September 16, 2016 9:13 am

    TB, you make some valid points and I don’t notice anyone suggesting the US is above criticism . The USA has many facets and some aren’t attractive

    On balance I think the US does reasonably well for a diverse country of 300 million.

    But… when you post a comment that is deliberately provocative don’t complain about others getting ‘snarky’

  132. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 16, 2016 9:21 am

    “…believe a resource can be depleted when one actually is depleted. Predictions are worthless…”

    I’d rather they didn’t get depleted or made extinct. We have duty of care for the generations to come. We don’t have another planet handy for when we’ve wrecked this one.

  133. September 16, 2016 9:22 am

    “After being severely depleted by decades of overfishing, the recovery in cod stocks is now strong enough that the fish could qualify for the Marine Stewardship Council’s blue label for certified sustainability for the first time ever.”

  134. September 16, 2016 9:26 am

    “We don’t have another planet handy for when we’ve wrecked this one.”

    Maybe we do, if this one-percenter has his way.

  135. shaneinqld permalink
    September 16, 2016 9:38 am

    Whether you believe in predictions or not, is it not better to conserve what we have and use it wisely, or is that simply a lefty arty farty way of looking at things as well. I thought conservatives hate waste. or is that only when that waste affects their own profit levels. Has the old saying “waste not want not” been replaced with make it so it becomes waste as quickly as possible. Is it not much better for the planet and our own health to build lasting items of quality than have to replace then every 12 months or so, in the name of balance sheet sales and profit for bonus to those already on millions of dollars.

  136. September 16, 2016 9:42 am

    “I thought conservatives hate waste.”

    That’s a bit of a straw man, Shane. Point out where I have argued that waste is a good thing. I am merely pointing out that resource depletion is an unproven theory. So far.

  137. September 16, 2016 9:46 am

    I should correct myself and call it resource exhaustion.

    Partial depletion can happen, as per TB’s cod fish.

  138. September 16, 2016 9:48 am

    You Worry. You Shouldn’t.

  139. shaneinqld permalink
    September 16, 2016 9:57 am

    Is extinction resource exhaustion ?

  140. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 16, 2016 10:26 am

    The USA is a fun place – on the surface … I just don’t want to see Australia reduced to a crippled capitalist state … we are so much better than that!

    The USA is OK. I cannot understand why lefties hate the USA. Perhaps you can give a list of countries you think are OK.

    I lived there for 6 years. Where i worked the people were mainly from Eastern Europe and China so they obviously do not like the countries they were born in. I see lots of people moving to the USA and i see very few who want to leave.

  141. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    September 16, 2016 10:51 am

    … and despite all the problems of the US they have elected a half Kenyan black president, and are likely to follow that with their first woman president.

    Meanwhile here we get people like Clive Palmer and Pauline Hanson. Thanks Queensland.

  142. Shane in QLD permalink
    September 16, 2016 11:04 am

    I don’t hate the USA. I hate the extreme capitalist politics that have unfolded over the last 40 years which has stripped the wealth from anyone other than the top 1% of the population. I deem that type of wealth concentration of a nation obscene and unconscionable.

    Other countries. Austria, Canada, Finland, Greece, Italy, Singapore, Norway, New Zealand, Denmark, Germany, France, Sweden. There are others as well.

  143. shaneinqld permalink
    September 16, 2016 11:10 am

    We also got Kevin Andrews, thanks VIC. Cory Bernardi, thanks SA. Eric Abetz, thanks TAS.

    What will you say if the elect Donald Trump ?

  144. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 16, 2016 11:21 am

    I hate the extreme capitalist politics that have unfolded over the last 40 years which has stripped the wealth from anyone other than the top 1% of the population.

    Nobody is starving to death in the USA. What extreme capitalist policies are you talking about?

  145. shaneinqld permalink
    September 16, 2016 11:29 am

    Just because no one is starving to death does not mean that it is a wonderful political system Neil. If you equate starving to death as your minimum then that is a very sad minimum.

  146. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    September 16, 2016 11:44 am

    I don’t think they will elect Trump. I’d be disappointed if the do.

    But I think Trump is their version of Clive Palmer

  147. shaneinqld permalink
    September 16, 2016 12:12 pm

    I would be disappointed as well, however that is democracy. I agree regarding being their version of Clive Palmer. But Clive Palmer got elected !!

  148. September 16, 2016 12:17 pm

    I’d love to see Trump elected, just for the fun of watching all the lerty heads explode.

    Is that so wrong?

  149. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 16, 2016 1:01 pm

    What i find hard to understand in a country of 300 million people they cannot come up with better candidates than Clinton or Trump

    Just because no one is starving to death does not mean that it is a wonderful political system Neil.

    The USA is OK. If i was kicked out of Australia i would try the USA. I was amazed how cheap everything was when i was there. I guess lower wages helps. And everybody seemed to have central heating. For the first 3 months i was there i stayed in the basement of a house where they kept the central heater. They had it on all the time during winter when i arrived. No way could most Aussie households afford being heated 24/7

  150. shaneinqld permalink
    September 16, 2016 1:12 pm

    Neil. How long ago did you live there ?

  151. TB Queensland permalink
    September 16, 2016 1:19 pm

    ToM, But… when you post a comment that is deliberately provocative don’t complain about others getting ‘snarky’

    I can assure you that I was not being deliberately provocative, I really do believe that the country I immediately adopted in 1961 has been changed (is changing) because of US influence …

    Like you I have been privileged to work, visit and live in many countries … it truly is a wonderful world … but I love this place like no other – including my birthplace … the cultural damage being done to Australia by the USA is incalculable … I can get a sense of what Aboriginals must feel at our imposition on their lifestyle … changes aren’t always good for ALL people …

    One thing I really miss is the “village” atmosphere I grew up in and experienced here in the 1960/70’s … now its individuals and self centred wants …

    Having said that I’ve witnessed many a disaster … including two floods in Brisbane (I swam out of my workshop in 1974 at six in the evening and ten feet of water over the road – scary tuff!) … but what happens then, is the camaraderie that we are famous for … I hope we never lose that!

  152. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 16, 2016 1:27 pm

    Shane- I returned home in October 1998 so it was a while ago. But i had a great time in the USA. Sometimes i found it hard to tell which country i was in because some parts are very similar to Australia. However they did not have pubs but they had things called sports bars which have a different atmosphere to a pub. To go to a pub you had to go to an Irish or English pub. The Irish pub i went to had rugby and soccer matches on TV on Saturday. And chips not french fries. But everything was cheap. For a price a big mac in Australia you could get a big mac meal in the USA. I think wages are lower in the USA. We pay the head of our Post Office millions/year whereas the head of the US post office only get $500K/year

  153. shaneinqld permalink
    September 16, 2016 1:41 pm

    Neil. That is my point. it has been 18 years since you lived there and there has been massive changes in their politics, combined with the GFC. You would not have witnessed the mass unemployment from the GFC or the decimation of the car companies in Detroit being 2 things alone. When the minimum hourly wage of a country cannot even cover the annual cost of a health insurance policy for a family there is something drastically wrong. Hundreds of the elderly die in the USA each year from the inability to afford fuel heating during winter. Hundreds of thousands of small businesses and the jobs they provided have disappeared with the onslaught of Wal Mart. Hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs were lost as Wal Mart insisted its suppliers find cheaper labour overseas so they could charge cheaper prices to Wal Mart wholesale. Millions of US citizens are homeless, millions more live in poverty while being fully employed, relying on food stamps and government handouts because their wages cannot sustain and cover their minimal living costs. Did you know that a mass killing from firearms is only once a minimum of 4 have been killed. Any less is not a mass killing in the US statistics. Manipulation and smoke and mirrors is what the USA does best. Hollywood shows how easy it can be done.

  154. shaneinqld permalink
    September 16, 2016 1:47 pm

    Neil I find it disgraceful that we overpay our Australia Post boss as well as all of our politician’s. but I find it even more bitterly distasteful that the US expect many workers in the hospitality and tourism industry to work for $0 dollars from the employer and rely solely on tips from the customers. A country where Warren Buffets secretary pays a higher tax rate than he does. A country where their top people are paid not millions of dollars but hundreds of millions of dollars and never go near a customer of their business.

  155. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 16, 2016 1:48 pm

    Well they still make things in the USA however i was amazed at how much stuff they imported from China. In 1992 a pair of Reeboks cost $250 in Australia and only $50 in the USA and they both came from China. Shows how much more expensive it is to do business in Australia. But they still make cars in the USA but they prefer Toyota made in the USA rather than Ford made in the USA because they are better quality

    But all our manufacturing has gone so we are in worse shape.

  156. shaneinqld permalink
    September 16, 2016 2:01 pm

    They manufacture very little and it is getting worse all the time, just like ourselves. Of course things are cheaper and so are their wages, It is all relevant. In relation to Reeboks, do you not think that the difference in markup is the retailer profit margin in Australia and not just wages costs like you are thinking. I explained to you why so much is imported from China.

  157. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 16, 2016 2:09 pm

    No i think the higher costs for Reeboks is the cost of doing business in Australia not higher profits. It is soo much more expensive to make things in Australia even compared to countries with similar standards of living.

    I think Americans like Trump because they think he may bring back manufacturing jobs they have lost to Mexico and China

  158. TB Queensland permalink
    September 16, 2016 2:18 pm

    ToM, forgot to reply to this … TB if you made such a generalisation about almost any other country you’d be called a racist.

    To begin with the USA is a country of many races … including my own …

    There has been a number of attempts to paint me as a racist or a bigot over the years commenting … neither one will stick … here’s why …

    I have friends both here and overseas who are Jews, Christians, Muslims and Buddhists … they are all colours and creeds English, Australian, French, German, Polish, Bosnian, PNG, Canadian, Aboriginal, Dutch, Danish, Lebanese, Egyptian and gawd forbid an American! (ex-soldier) who adamantly informs me that Australia is fast catching up to the worst of the country he left many years ago!

    (I’m attempting to multi task at the moment, a concept that I believe to be myth anyway, for both male and female – whatever happened to retirement being laid back and watching the waterfalls!) LG! 🙂

  159. TB Queensland permalink
    September 16, 2016 2:21 pm

    In 1992 a pair of Reeboks cost $250 in Australia and only $50 in the USA and they both came from China. Shows how much more expensive it is to do business in Australia.

    That does not show anything of the sort – it shows profiteering by Reeboks in Australia!

    Fkn amazing!

  160. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 16, 2016 2:29 pm

    No it shows how much more expensive it is to do business in Australia. That is why more and more people are going online and buying direct from China.

    Retailers have to put on a huge mark up to pay for Super. Long Service Leave, redundancy, sick leave, annual leave, triple time on Sundays etc etc etc

  161. TB Queensland permalink
    September 16, 2016 3:43 pm

    Retailers have to put on a huge mark up to pay for Super. Long Service Leave, redundancy, sick leave, annual leave, triple time on Sundays etc etc etc

    TRIPLE time! REDUNDANCY!

    $200 a pair!

    What would you pay a shop assistant a week (full-time adult)?

  162. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    September 16, 2016 4:24 pm

    I can assure you that I was not being deliberately provocative.

    TB, if you make such a ridiculous and inaccurate comment (“it’s all coke and maccas”)… I’d prefer to believe you are being provocative rather that wilfully ignorant.

  163. shaneinqld permalink
    September 16, 2016 4:29 pm

    Neil. There is a higher cost of doing business in Australia and that is why we have a higher standard of living. But if you think that all of the difference is a result of employee costs then you really have a closed belief. You need to investigate the profit made on each pair, after all costs including employee costs are factored in. If in the US they make $10 net profit and in Australia they make $40 net profit, then it is the retailer greed and not the employee costs that has forced up the cost. We have universal health, we have super for the benefit of our retirees, we have aged care faculties. Would you rather things be cheaper and we have no services and a crime rate as horrific as the USA and gaols busting at the seams and millions in permanent rental working four and five casual jobs for minimum wage simply to meet living costs. I am damn sure I don’t.

  164. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    September 16, 2016 4:44 pm

    I think in 1992 Australia was probably still protecting the textile, clothing and footwear industry.

    …and I don’t think it was wage levels that sent manufacturing into decline, I do know that restrictive labour practices and the unreliability of industrial relations durimg plant shut down, upgrade, overhaul, and expansion caused plwnty of reluctance in investment

  165. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    September 16, 2016 6:11 pm

    And won’t everyone miss Conroy!

  166. TB Queensland permalink
    September 16, 2016 6:27 pm

    I think in 1992 Australia

    Actually, ToM, moves were afoot before 1992 to remove protection/tariffs … and we were caught flatfooted … no-one else did! Maybe that’s why most Australians with long memories are wary of Trade Agreements …

    I must say Conroy was a bit of a twit in so many ways and certainly didn’t impress me … the last stupidity with Governor Cosgrove (and I am a “devout” Republican) was shallow and ill advised …

    I’m not sure he was any better at managing the NBN than the rabble we have now … but at least he understood that the NBN was about fibre optics quality not a hybrid poor quantity!

    I just realised that all these pollies who claim “family” are being well supported by taxpayers … the rest of us still have to travel until we can afford to spend time with our families … in my case it was my grandchildren … not my ten yo!

    Pollies Perks at Werk! Grrrr!

    An NBN with anything but fibre is a joke!

  167. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 16, 2016 7:30 pm

    If in the US they make $10 net profit and in Australia they make $40 net profit, then it is the retailer greed

    So are you saying our retailers are more greedy? But things are much more expensive in Australia compared to the USA. It is why nobody wants to manufacture anything here anymore. And it is why more people are going online and purchasing stuff themselves. I have purchased books from Amazon.com which are half the price you can get them in Australia

  168. September 16, 2016 7:59 pm

    “he understood that the NBN was about fibre optics quality not a hybrid poor quantity”

    Funny you should mention that. Copper scarcity was another thing doomsayers were worrying about. Now we make a lot of communications cabling from sand.

  169. September 16, 2016 8:08 pm

    “And won’t everyone miss Conroy!”

    It will be interesting to see what high paying jobs and directorships he’s been lining up. And whether or not he’s promoted those companies’ interests while marking time in the senate.

  170. TB Queensland permalink
    September 16, 2016 10:13 pm

    Now we make a lot of communications cabling from sand.

    There’s a lot of it … your point being?

    And whether or not he’s promoted those companies’ interests while marking time in the senate.

    Conroy is a Labor senator not a Liberal …

  171. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 16, 2016 10:45 pm

    An NBN with anything but fibre is a joke!

    You could also say driving anything but a Ferrari is also a joke. But i cannot afford a Ferrari. Anyway since the NBN is a Labor idea it will almost certainly be superseded by something else within 10 years

  172. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 16, 2016 11:55 pm

    oh, how timely!

  173. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 17, 2016 5:29 am

    Right, who woulda thought? As long as it’s not an NBN that might disrupt rupert’s interests, we can manage a fast train or badgery’s.

    Apologies for the long cut & paste, am unsure if $walled for all.

    …Nation building comes back on the agenda as a way to revive the economy
    http://www.afr.com/news/economy/nation-building-comes-back-on-the-agenda-as-a-way-to-revive-the-economy-20160916-grhs8j#ixzz4KRp7kuQP

    But rather than build another hydro scheme – which was crucial in firing up Australia’s post-war economy by providing cheap energy and irrigation – the 21 Century equivalent revolves around construction of Sydney’s second airport, Badgerys Creek, he argues.

    The government announced rail options on Friday for the hugely overdue airport, which Taylor hopes will become a major primer for new investment and jobs across western Sydney, long the poor cousin of development in the city…

    …With the China-driven resources investment boom rapidly fading in the rear-view mirror, debate is shifting towards what comes next.

    The outlook, as always, is unsettling. There are many unknowns. Where will the next wave of jobs come from? What, in Taylor’s terms, will catalyse fresh economic growth? How can we repair seemingly entrenched budget deficits to ensure government debt contributes to growth rather than strangle it.

    Underlying these worries is another concern. Does monetary policy – the great crutch of the post-crisis era – still work?

    Eight years ago this week the collapse of Lehman Brothers triggered a global recession that forced central banks to rescue financial systems and stabilise tottering economies.

    Since then, that support has become seemingly permanent, with each subsequent downturn or market crisis triggering a fresh round of interest rate cuts and experimentation in unconventional monetary policy, including negative rates and epic bond buying schemes. With each round, the benefits have waned.

    This week’s financial market turmoil has been driven by growing realisation that those experiments are reaching their limits.

    European Central Bank president Mario Draghi appears to have belled the cat, refusing to commit to more bond buying, triggering heavy selloffs across stock and bond markets.

    Populism on the rise

    At the same time markets are increasingly becoming aware that governments themselves realise the monetary policy game is up. And that means the focus is returning to the fiscal game.

    Driven in part by the ascendancy of populist political movements around the developed world, incumbent governments in Europe, the UK, Japan and the US are being forced to respond by pulling back on budget austerity measures. As The Australian Financial Review’s correspondents in the US, China and Europe examine in related stories, this meets with mixed reviews…

    Stephen Conroy resignation helps clear media reform hurdle
    http://www.afr.com/business/media-and-marketing/tv/stephen-conroy-resignation-helps-clear-media-reform-hurdle-20160916-gri4vg#ixzz4KRpvRV00

    …The shock resignation of Labor powerbroker and shadow special minister of state Stephen Conroy removes one of the staunchest opponents to half of the government’s proposed media ownership regulation changes.

    The Victorian senator has been against the removal of the “two out of three” rule, which prevents media companies from owning a newspaper, TV station and radio network in the same market…

    ..Many see the removal of the rule as helpful to Rupert Murdoch’s News Corporation – which famously compared Senator Conroy to several dictators, including Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong on the front page of The Daily Telegraph…

  174. TB Queensland permalink
    September 17, 2016 8:45 am

    Anyway since the NBN is a Labor idea it will almost certainly be superseded by something else within 10 years

    To use your “analogy” of Ferrari …

    If you were an F1 Team manager and your business relied on getting around a track at the fastest speed you could … to beat your competitors and stay in the game … would you buy a mini minor or a Ferrari!

    Or just quit the F1 circuit and the big money that it earns … and go on the dole …

    Read the page here and you may understand why we get frustrated with you ignorance and your Liberal colleagues … a hybrid will be no faster than what many people already have in cable!

    https://www.blackbox.com/en-us/blogs/preview/technology/2015/04/15/8-advantages-to-choosing-fiber-over-copper-cable

  175. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 17, 2016 10:02 am

    TB

    My Ferrari analogy was meant to show i would like a Ferrari but i cannot afford one. Even your link says this for point 8

    8. Cost The cost for fiber cable, components, and hardware has steadily decreased. Overall, fiber cable is more expensive than copper cable in the short run, but it may be less expensive in the long run

    Lots of ifs and buts in that point. Nobody knows how much it would cost to install cable to everyones homes. I want affordable broadband not expensive broadband.

  176. September 17, 2016 11:19 am

    “Conroy is a Labor senator not a Liberal …”

    Of course. Labor politicians are incorruptible. Like Sam Dastyari.

    Conroy will bob up in some lucrative position or other. Who gives it to him will be the interesting part.

  177. Tom R permalink
    September 17, 2016 1:23 pm

    Like Sam Dastyari.

    Or Julie Bishop
    There’s plenty of libs who already have got their cosy jobs with firms they were cosy with as ministers. You ignore them, but ‘ruminate’ on Conroy. Why?

  178. September 17, 2016 1:38 pm

    “Why?”

    Isn’t it obvious? He just announced his retirement from parliament.

  179. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 17, 2016 1:42 pm

    He just announced his retirement from parliament.

    Must admit a little bit strange. Sounds like he must have done something wrong and is about to be found out

  180. Tom R permalink
    September 17, 2016 1:55 pm

    Oh, so because he has left politics you assume he’ll act like all those libs you studiosly ignore

  181. September 17, 2016 1:57 pm

    “Oh, so because he has left politics you assume he’ll act like all those libs you studiosly ignore”

    He may not be as pure as you think. Who are all those Libs I’m studiously ignoring, by the way?

  182. September 17, 2016 3:39 pm

    Mal Brough for one.

  183. TB Queensland permalink
    September 17, 2016 3:48 pm

    8. Cost The cost for fiber cable, components, and hardware has steadily decreased

    And maintenance costs are minimal … while copper requires almost constant expensive maintenance …

    I want affordable broadband not expensive broadband.

    Check out some of the NBN bundles (that also include your telephone, remember) and you’ll see that many are cheaper than cable or ADSL …

    You’ll also get a wider choice … right now my cable is owned by Telstra … that’s a monopoly!

    Anyway I’m sick of the blood from my forehead dripping on the keyboard whenever the NBN comes up …

    What was it that Forrest Gump said again?

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    “Conroy is a Labor senator not a Liberal …”

    Of course. Labor politicians are incorruptible. Like Sam Dastyari.

    Perhaps I could have helped you had I done this … Conroy is a Labor senator not a Liberal*

    There ya go ToM will explain it to you … if you ask nicely …

    And for the record … I think its odd that he’s resigned in a rather odd way at a rather odd time … ie the boss is overseas, doesn’t let the acting boss know, two months after the election, and a rather odd series of court cases coming up …

    Still it may also be something medical with himself or family… who knows …

    And ToSY … maybe you should read my comments @ September 16, 2016 6:27 pm

    And you may have understood may later comment about Conroy!

    Its like playing on a rifle range around here … luckily against poor shots!*

  184. September 17, 2016 4:37 pm

    “Its like playing on a rifle range around here … luckily against poor shots!*”

    If you say so. 🙄

  185. Shane in QLD permalink
    September 17, 2016 4:56 pm

    Neil.
    Yes I am saying our retailers are more greedy. Just like our richest are the least generous. The desire to make more and more profit at the expense of everything else has become endemic. Which is better for Australia. 1) A company that employs 500 full time staff at $50,000 each and 10 management at $250,0000 with a total cost of $27,500,000. or 2) A company employing 1000 casual staff at $20,000 each and 10 management at $750,000 each with a total cost of $27,500,000. The costs are the same and the output is the same.

  186. shaneinqld permalink
    September 17, 2016 5:04 pm

    Regarding Stephen Conroy I think he actually looked ill when he gave his 1 minute talk regarding tabling his speech. However he could be ill from being nervous about any possible future charges. I will however wait for the truth and not attack along party lines as so many others seem to like to do.

    Stephen Conroy actually had vision along with Kevin Rudd in creating the NBN. The venomous hatred of the NBN by the LNP and the bastardisation of it will become more evident as it continues to roll out. I have a client who is employed full time by Telstra to design running fibre to the actual house boundary rather than the se so called wonderful nodes the LNP dreamed up as it is apparently becoming abundantly clear that only a small distance from the node results in massive slowing. So while the LNP have bastardised the NBN, behind the scenes they are getting oh so close to the actual plan of fibre to the home only they would never ever admit it. Malcolm Turnbull will be remembered as the Minister ( under instructions from Abbott) who bastardised something that was a vision for the whole country simply because the ALP thought of it.

  187. TB Queensland permalink
    September 17, 2016 7:16 pm

    If you say so.🙄

    Try holding a target up at a rifle range sometime … or watch Saving Private Ryan for the first three minutes …

    So are you being nice? … 😉

    +++++++++++++++

    shane … we always did see the same world … uncanny (hehe pun intended … grvatar? In case ToSY gets a frown 🙂 )

  188. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 17, 2016 7:42 pm

    Shane

    In case you have forgotten Rudd took a NBN policy to the 2007 election. It was FTTN costing $4.7B and be finished within 6 years ie by 2013. They put the project up for tender but there were no takers.

    Because Rudd was so disfunctional Conroy had to lassoo Rudd on some plane flight to get his approval for the next version ie FTTP built by the govt. There were no costings or plan just a proposal which Rudd gave the go ahead to.

    Nobody knows how much it would cost or how long it would take to build. I want affordable broadband not a Ferrari version i have to pay $500/month for.

  189. September 17, 2016 7:43 pm

    I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about half the time.

  190. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    September 17, 2016 8:32 pm

    I think Conroy is a talentless hack.

  191. TB Queensland permalink
    September 17, 2016 10:08 pm

    I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about half the time.

    I know … and yet … strangely … I know exactly what you are trying to do say … 🙂

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I think Conroy is a talentless hack.

    Exactly! Very much like the LNP front bench, ToM … I’m sure you would agree …

  192. Walrus permalink
    September 18, 2016 12:17 am

    “Try holding a target up at a rifle range sometime … or watch Saving Private Ryan for the first three minutes”

    Actually watched it again last week

    First 3 minutes was in the cemetery by the way.

    Wrong again !

    My apology for not seeing your apology by the way

    Apology accepted. My reaction was a bit over the top I must say

    I was at the time very pissed off about being on the phone to over there for 2 hours about stuff that had kind of “disappeared”

    Yet another theft on a fairly large scale

    Happily we are are still both c😀Nts

  193. Walrus permalink
    September 18, 2016 12:24 am

    Gotta say

    The old Germany and Adolf were pretty good at dreams of engineering

    And who doesn’t love a decent military marching song

  194. Walrus permalink
    September 18, 2016 12:33 am

    I also believe every city outside of Canberra needs one of these just to send a message

  195. Walrus permalink
    September 18, 2016 12:52 am

    By the way the Germans with that tank in my post had a way of controlling carbon dioxide emissions in the future

    The Maus tank gobbled up 30 litres per kilometre. 1 litre every 30 metres

    Now that’s a muscle car !

    We need to burn more fossil fuel to control global warming . The more we burn the lesser any perceived lefty bed wetting as it will suck up the current glut

  196. Shane in QLD permalink
    September 18, 2016 4:55 am

    Neil.

    I think you had better go back and do a bit more homework. Conroy and Rudd developed the NBN with FTTP that is fibre direct to the premises. Malcolm Turnbull stopped this and developed FTTN a far less superior service and one that will be plagued with problems and maintenance issues for years to come.

    http://www.cnet.com/au/news/nbn-co-kills-fibre-to-the-home-fttp-rollout/

    In relation to costings could you ask your mate Barnaby Joyce to release the costings on forcing the department to Armidale ? Funny how the LNP will only release costings to its citizens when it suits them.

    In relation to costings, some things are of a benefit in excess of costings. Otherwise we would have No Snowy Mountains Scheme, No Opera House, No Harbour Bridge to name just a few. It is a ridiculous argument by those who have no vision, and unable to see past their own ideologies.

  197. shaneinqld permalink
    September 18, 2016 5:08 am

    Neil

    Your Ferrari analogy is rubbish because there is a legal speed limit of 100km so no matter how flash a car you have it can only legally do the speed limit. Virtually every car in Australia can do 100km. In addition almost all vehicles have the same basic structure, the rest is simply fashion design and gadgets added on for those who have an ego problem or money to burn.

    Changing the NBN from FTTP to FTTN is doing a major design fault to save construction costs, when you know full well the repairs and maintenance over the next decade will be horrific, however it is much easier to cover future repairs and maintenance than it is to cover start up costs.

    We now have a NBN that cannot do anywhere need the speed limit with massive future repair bills that the government will have to pay for. The lies of the LNP regarding NBN are much like the lies of VW and their claims on emissions.

    I think my client knows far more than you or I and I believe him as he is developing the technology at the coal face.

  198. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 18, 2016 10:02 am

  199. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 18, 2016 12:07 pm

    I think you had better go back and do a bit more homework.

    Shane- Labors 2007 election policy was FTTN. After the election it was thrown into the bin. The next idea was thought up on the back of a drinks coaster on some plane flight.

    Labor commits to investing up to $4.7 billion into a new high speed national broadband network for 98 per cent of Australians. This will be fibre optic to the node. 12 megabits per second – and capable of upscaling. It will be laid out over 5 years in partnership with the private sector. In the 19th century, nation builders laid out the railway network. In the 21st century, nation builders are laying out high speed broadband networks.

    Nobody knows how much FTTP will cost or how long it will take to build. I use the Ferrari analogy because i cannot afford an expensive car and i cannot afford expensive internet. Your friend has no idea how much FTTP will cost. FTTN is going to be bad enough

  200. TB Queensland permalink
    September 18, 2016 12:09 pm

    Yep, God Bless America … ’cause no-one can save it now!

    Political rights notwithstanding, “freedom” rings awfully hollow when you’re getting nickel-and-dimed to death in your everyday life. The Roosevelts recognized that wage peonage, or any system that inclines toward subsistence level, is simply incompatible with self-determination. Subsistence is, by definition, a constrained, desperate state; one’s horizon is necessarily limited to the present day, to getting enough of what the body needs to make it to the next. These days a minimum wage worker in New York City clocking 40 hours a week (at $9 per hour) earns $18,720 a year, well under the Federal Poverty Line of $21,775. That’s a scrambling, anxious existence, narrowly bounded. Close to impossible to decently feed, clothe, and shelter yourself on a wage like that, much less a family; much less buy health insurance, or save for your kid’s college, or participate in any of those other good American things. Down at peon level, the pursuit of happiness sounds like a bad joke. “It’s called the American dream,” George Carlin cracked, “because you have to be asleep to believe it.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/17/american-dream-divided-nation-equal-opportunity-trump-clinton-campaign

  201. TB Queensland permalink
    September 18, 2016 12:18 pm

    Wrong again !

    My apology for not seeing your apology by the way

    Apology accepted. My reaction was a bit over the top I must say

    YES! I’d forgotten the opening scene was recall! One of the best war films along with Blackhawk Down …

    BTW, I have never claimed to be 100% correct all the time … I’m happy with 70% (textbook stats on good management decisions) …

    Thanks for accepting – back at ya – luckily, it seems, I never saw your nuclear reaction … nor do I want to … I guess sreb, figured we both had our fingers on the button … happy to get back to the usual sledging (with care 🙂 ) that other folk don’t usually get!

  202. TB Queensland permalink
    September 18, 2016 1:02 pm

    IGNORANCE is no excuse … neel, you are confusing Telstra with the government of the day!

    FTTN is not a new technology, having been rolled out in many areas of the World for over 5 years. Indeed, Telstra proposed this technology for Australia way back in 2005, but their pricing and competition model was rejected by the ACCC, and they decided not to proceed. If they had decided to proceed, there’s no doubt that the urgent need for the NBN would be greatly reduced. FTTN was certainly excellent technology for 2005.

    FTTN isn’t really a pathway to later upgrades to FTTP. Most of the systems deployed for FTTN will not be reused, and so would be wasted. FTTP uses about 1/3 the number of street cabinets as FTTN, and those cabinets are about 1/4 the size of FTTN cabinets (Think esky versus refrigerator). FTTP nodes also don’t require electrical power, unlike FTTN cabinets. All of the DSL systems that go along with FTTN are also wasted.

    All of the considerable labour costs of rolling out FTTN, such as fibre installation, cabinet installation, electrical labour, fibre splicing, copper upgrades etc are all wasted when moving to FTTP. Worse, it will cost more money to remove the redundant FTTN architecture and electrical systems when FTTP is rolled out.

    The only portion of an FTTN network that could potentially be reused would be sections of the fibre run to the nodes. But even this would have to be cut, added to, re-spliced and extensively modified to upgrade to an FTTP system.

    In other words, FTTN will cost money to roll out, have a short useful life, and cost more money to remove and replace. Of the estimated network cost of FTTN of about $15 billion, almost none adds any value or reduces the expense of a future “upgrade” to an FTTP system, so it’s money down the drain.

    https://theguttertrash.com/2016/09/14/when-did-we-vote-for-a-taxpayer-funded-hate-campaign/#comment-133019

    Anyone who really understands the technology and its benefits will tell you that a hybrid FTTN system will NEVER come close to a FTTP fibre optic system …

    And the NBN bundles being offered are as competitive or better than ADSL or cable … my Telstra bundle is actually cheaper using NBN than cable! (But my cable is as fast as the NBN offering … duh!)

  203. shaneinqld permalink
    September 18, 2016 1:10 pm

    Neil. It doesn’t matter if the ALP started with FTTN then threw that out and went with FTTP. Obviously they were convinced that FTTN was a stupid design and contained faults and the FTTP was far superior and while more expensive it was a far superior solution in the long run. They designed FTTP which was a better outcome.

    For the LNP to throw out FTTP and go back to FTTN proves they simply had an ideological hatred of something that was going to benefit all citizens and not just their own benefactors and supporters. In addition FTTN is not as much a threat to Foxtel as FTTP.

    Using the Ferrari in regards to expense is not a correct analogy either. You can buy a Ferrari or a Lada and they will both do the speed limit and get you from A to B. All you are buying is luxury which does not get you any place faster as you can only go 100km max. The internet allows you to pay more for more speed. That’s is an actual result not a bells and whistles add on without better performance.

    I explained that cost is not the end of the world and not the essential ingredient in infrastructure which has a future massive benefit to all of its citizens.

    You comment on here all the time so you must be able to afford the internet. The future of watching programmes will be on the internet and without FTTP streaming will be broken and static

  204. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 18, 2016 1:49 pm

    It doesn’t matter if the ALP started with FTTN then threw that out and went with FTTP. Obviously they were convinced that FTTN was a stupid design and contained faults and the FTTP was far superior

    No, the ALP put their winning 2007 election policy out for tender and there were no takers that is why they did not do FTTN.

    The Coalition stopped doing Labors FTTP because they believed it would never be finished and cost too much. There were only 100,000 homes connected to FTTP by 2013.

    Cost is important for some people. I am on the NBN and it is only costing me $10/month more but i do not believe they are charging the full cost of building the NBN and that is with the cheaper FTTN version.

  205. TB Queensland permalink
    September 18, 2016 2:05 pm

    All you are buying is luxury which does not get you any place faster as you can only go 100km max.

    Actually, shane, the Lada is probably more expensive in the long run … as they are notorious for breaking down … so a businessman loses a contract … a teacher can’t deliver a crucial message to a child that could change the world (holographic classrooms) … a doctor can’t reach a patient in time (remote medicine/procedures) … a scientist misses an important lecture/meeting and fails to develop a ground breaking product (web presentation) … a family reunion is ruined when some members can’t make it (skype?) … a training consultant loses a major contract ’cause she fails to turn up (group skype or holograms*) …

    All these scenarios can happen with a cheap car that breaks down constantly is slow and requires constant repairs in the workshop …

    The same scenarios can happen with poor or slow internet …

    Should I mention missing out on the best girl at the parlour … or the crucial part of the porn movie … nah! 🙂

    Win 10 is set up for holographic projection … but it needs speed and stability to work …

    In my first Masters degree assignment (1994) I covered the future use of holograms in adult learning scenarios … 22 years later we are still piddling a out with delivery issues!

  206. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 18, 2016 6:21 pm

    For the LNP to throw out FTTP and go back to FTTN proves they simply had an ideological hatred of something that was going to benefit all citizens

    Shane

    Speaking of ideological hatred do you know Conroy broke Howard govt signed contracts to build broadband in the regional/rural areas of Australia. We are now being sued by Optus because the ALP broke these contracts

    http://www.techworld.com.au/article/395910/opel_would_serving_bush_broadband_today_turnbull/

    Federal opposition communications spokesman Malcolm Turnbull has used his National Press Club address to argue the decision to scrap the Howard government’s OPEL network for an NBN has denied the bush broadband services over the past three years.

    Turnbull gave familiar arguments against the NBN saying the network is too costly, won’t result in more affordable broadband services and will stifle competition.

    “For the 1.5 million or so Australians in remote or sparsely settled areas, the coalition and Labor technology approaches are very similar – fixed wireless and satellite,” he said.

    “It is no accident the technologies to be deployed by the NBN are the same as those which would have been used by OPEL. And, had that scheme not been cancelled by Labor in 2008 would today be providing fast broadband to Australians in those areas.”

  207. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 18, 2016 8:54 pm

  208. shaneinqld permalink
    September 19, 2016 5:14 am

    Neil.
    That’s because OPEL was a contracted private supplier and you would only be able to use the one provider irrespective of cost and that was Optus. The NBN is a wholesale provider allowing other competitors and providers to use the same service as the NBN is not the retailer.

    Howard shut down the mobile analogue network leaving thousands of farmers without mobile coverage all around Australia long before the NBN was even a thought. To this date there are so many black spots in rural areas only a few km from a town. While Keating commenced the privatisation of a portion of Telstra, Howard could have ensured we had a far better digital network in the bush before the shutdown of Analogue which covered 100% of the whole country. The Nationals held out for a while but still caved in.

  209. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 19, 2016 4:05 pm

    That’s because OPEL was a contracted private supplier and you would only be able to use the one provider irrespective of cost and that was Optus.

    Conroy said the Opel/Optus contract was cancelled because it did not have the coverage they promised. I do not believe that. I believe the Rudd govt had an ideological hatred of a Howard govt policy. Having a private company building it would mean it would be cheaper and completed sooner. We are now being sued

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/business-spectator/optus-seeks-28m-in-opel-damages-report/news-story/4fd44bb0ea9dbdaa48c1455299a22c83

    Optus is reportedly seeking millions of dollars in damages from the federal government in its long-running dispute over the demise of the OPEL broadband network……..OPEL Networks — a joint venture between Optus and Elders — was given the green light to build a network using a combination of WiMax and ADSL technologies in 2007.

    The $1.9 billion project, initiated under the auspices of John Howard and the then communications minister Helen Coonan, was designed to provide high-speed broadband services to rural and regional Australia.

  210. TB Queensland permalink
    September 19, 2016 5:24 pm

    shane, please don’t … o_O

    Ground hog day!

  211. Shane in QLD permalink
    September 20, 2016 5:34 am

    LOL TB

    Neil.
    Believe what you like. I prefer facts myself.

  212. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 20, 2016 9:39 am

    Likewise Shane

    The facts are Conroy broke signed Howard govt contracts to build broadband in regional Australia. It would have been finished years ago. Conroy said the coverage was only 70% of rural Australia rather than the promised 93% as the reason he broke the contract.

    I believe Conroy broke the contract for ideological reasons to the detriment of Australia.

  213. TB Queensland permalink
    September 20, 2016 10:19 am

    Woulda! Coulda! Shoulda! Beliefs!

  214. Shane in QLD permalink
    September 20, 2016 1:59 pm

    Neil

    Howard went to the election in 2007 with his subsidy programme for the bush. Rudd went to the election with a commonwealth owned wholesale network for the whole of Australia covering at least 93% of the population which included the bush. They offered to honour the agreement with Opel as long as they met the required targets in their contract which was 90%. This apparently could not be done so the government of the day cancelled the privately owned, but government tax payer subsidised, rural network where you could only use them if you lived in the bush. I do not consider that ideology I consider that honouring their election commitment to create a NBN wholesaler for all retailers to access, to create competition rather than have the rural sector beholden to a tax payer subsidised company while the rest of the country had a government owned NBN.

  215. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 20, 2016 2:34 pm

    Rudd went to the election with a commonwealth owned wholesale network

    RUBBISH!!!!! Rudd went to the 2007 election with a NBN FTTN policy costing only $4.7B, finished by 2013 and to be built by private enterprise. After the election they could not find anybody to build it.

    Howard had Optus/Opel contracted for regional Australia and a policy for the cities i can no longer find because it was on the old Howard govt website.

    Please get your facts right Shane. The NBN now being built was not the 2007 election policy. That policy went nowhere. This was their 2007 policy

    Uploaded on Aug 6, 2007

    Labor commits to investing up to $4.7 billion into a new high speed national broadband network for 98 per cent of Australians. This will be fibre optic to the node. 12 megabits per second – and capable of upscaling. It will be laid out over 5 years in partnership with the private sector. In the 19th century, nation builders laid out the railway network. In the 21st century, nation builders are laying out high speed broadband networks.

  216. TB Queensland permalink
    September 20, 2016 3:12 pm

    In the 19th century, nation builders laid out the railway network. In the 21st century, the Liberal Government are laying out broadband networks … (not one but lots of different networks) that will be slower than the railway network laid out in the 19th Century!

  217. September 20, 2016 3:46 pm

    Straight people need to stop telling us how we should feel about the #plebiscite

  218. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    September 20, 2016 4:38 pm

    19th century, nation builders laid out the railway network.

    Really? Generally the 19th C railway builders were the archetypal “Robber Barons”

  219. TB Queensland permalink
    September 20, 2016 6:13 pm

    Really? Generally the 19th C railway builders were the archetypal “Robber Barons”

    er … not my “quote”, neel’s … can’t wait can you?

    In fact the 19th Century Australian railway builders were fkn atrocious … gauges – 5ft, 3’6″, 4’81/2″ many leading to nowhere … and certainly not enough, even now!

    Have you ever read comprehended my comments about getting Bdoubles off the fkn roads …

    Read the comment above mine before you start sniping again …

    My reply was to the nonsense that, neel, keeps burbling about the NBN!

    And finally … the railways in Australia were all built by the state governments … and still are (apart from a couple of privately owned mine rail systems …)

    You confuse the Yankee railroads (Robber Barons) with British Commonwealth railways (governments) …

    I might add that while we have private rail companies across the Commonwealth … the infrastructure is owned by the state …

    You also forgot one of my hobbies! Wally would have been awake!

    Coincidentally my computer is busily converting one of five DVDs of British Steam Engines to mp4 … as I tap away here … 🙂 😀

    LG!

  220. TB Queensland permalink
    September 20, 2016 6:21 pm

    Straight people need to stop telling us how we should feel about the #plebiscite

    many of us have sreb! Take heart from that! Most Australians think its abhorrent …

    … except the fuckwit at my model railway meeting last night … I just let it go … like fucking hell I did!

    Fancy the Dickhead quoting the fucking bible at me!

    What was unusual is that we had been talking about something quite apposite … in fact I wondered what he was talking about to start with! Weird …

    QA was noisy last night … I’ve never really liked Barnsey … I still don’t … 😉

    Just ’cause he says what many of us think and say too … does not make him “likeable” … still if he can sway people to thimk* that’s a good thing …

    I prefer music to screech too …

    (*for you know who)

  221. September 20, 2016 6:27 pm

    “”Fancy the Dickhead quoting the fucking bible at me!””

    I can just imagine… LOL 🙂

    Hell mend the callous fool that dare quote teh boble at me…!!

  222. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 20, 2016 6:33 pm

    NBN wholesaler for all retailers to access, to create competition

    Even more rubbish Shane. You sound like you know what you are talking about but throw in some whoppers. My conservative friends tell me that NBNCo has dried up all competition. It is a govt monopoly which has sole rights to build this thing. Telstra, Optus, IPG are not allowed to do anything.

    Perhaps you need reminding. What Rudd took to the 2007 election went nowhere. He could not get private enterprise to build his planned $4.7B network. I believe he lied to win the election. This new NBN ($47B only? 10x more) was thought up on the back of a drinks coaster on some plane flight with no costings or plan. By 2013 only 100,000 homes were connected to Labors FTTP. Only 12 million premises to go.

  223. September 20, 2016 6:49 pm

    “I believe he lied to win the election. “

    How long has this been going on….??

  224. TB Queensland permalink
    September 20, 2016 8:42 pm

    How long has this been going on….??

    Pollies lying …

    Or neel telling us what his conservative friends tell him … o_O

  225. shaneinqld permalink
    September 21, 2016 5:33 am

    Neil

    Your conservative friends, wow, you don’t think that they have ideological opposition like yourself, as you continually tell us you hate lefties and ALP voters. I have never said I hate you and I have many conservative friends who I debate but never tell them I hate them, but it seems you love to use the word hate.

    I get my information from clients in the field working for Telstra and the NBN and from clients who actually run computer shops and deal with clients form all walks of life who are using the NBN and other services, which I take far more reliably than any other type of people who tell me things either conservative or progressive.

    As for competition, just ask Optus how good Telstra was as a wholesale provider of its network when it was opened up to other providers such as Optus and Vodaphone. There were consistent court cases against Telstra for pricing their wholesale access unfairly. The only way to have that access fairly provided for all private retailers is to have a PUBLIC owned infrastructure providing the exact same price and conditions to all players. What part of the do you not seem to grasp. Telstra, Optus and IPG are PRVATE providers who are now all operating from the same infrastructure wholesale service rather than one of then own the infrastructure and screw their competition like Telstra used to do. If you had people in the field other than your conservative friends telling you things, you would be in the know about Telstra moving to be a service provider only rather than an infrastructure provider.

    It is far better IMO that our infrastructure be PUBLICLY owned than private owned when it comes to telecommunications, or do you think it is a good idea for private companies which are partially or fully owned by foreign governments owning our communications infrastructure. I think if you ask your conservative friends would they rather our government own our infrastructure of a foreign government you might get a surprise answer.

    Rather than ask your conservative friends and rely solely on their comments do some more research. the NBN was always created to be a PUBLICLY owned wholesaler to enable all private retailers to access the same infrastructure for the same price WITHOUT the influence of a private infrastructure owner.

  226. shaneinqld permalink
    September 21, 2016 6:52 am

    TB

    I am a model railway enthusiast as well.

    My grandfather was a chief engineer on the British Railways before moving the family to Australia.

    They lived along the highway in western NSW and he was always explaining how in reality we do not have user pays for our roads at all. He stated that the damage done to a road by 1 tyre on a BDouble is 40,000 times the damage done by the 4 wheels on a standard sedan. In addition it is a fact that the most economic transport of all is metal on metal, that is rail.

    Problem in Australia was the ideology of the LNP in destroying rail simply because the workforce was unionised, we now have the case of a massive country with third world rail with a population of 23 million trying to build, repair and replace roads for a country the size of the USA while putting thousands of trucks on the roads having them destroyed in 6 months, Full of potholes and torn around the corners as a result of trucks. The LNP are the user pays party so how about they increase the registration of trucks to 40,000 times the car registration fee. No I didn’t think so. It is only user pays when you can screw the worker and the public such as toll roads where once again the toll cost of trucks is nowhere near the damage they do. We are all subsidising trucks far in excess of anything we subsidised the railways, yet it is hidden through smoke and mirrors.

  227. shaneinqld permalink
    September 21, 2016 7:20 am

    Correction apparently our population as at 21 September is predicted to be 24,194,589.

  228. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 21, 2016 8:59 am

    the NBN was always created to be a PUBLICLY owned

    No. For the one millionth time the NBN policy Rudd took to the 2007 election was to be privately built and owned and be finished by 2013 and only cost $4.7B. But that did not work. The election promise was thrown into the bin. That morphed into the current program costing who knows what finished who knows when. That is why the Coalition changed it to FTTN because FTTP would bankrupt the country and never be finished.

  229. FTTPFFFT permalink
    September 21, 2016 11:00 am

    (It is a govt monopoly which has sole rights to build this thing. Telstra, Optus, IPG are not allowed to do anything.

    Really? Then why did the new nbn board gratuiously gift Telstra dual-use/dual-proprietorial rights and first dibs on resale of a par-built-to-virtually-complete nbn of those bits nbn considers the nbn’s and nbn considers Telstra’s after nbn’s having purchased them from Telstra, and upgraded them, and assumed responsibility for maintaining them, while the nbn is being ‘completed’, without Telstra being required to particularly pay for its especially and mysteriously privileged access to the nbn?

    Also, why is the new nbn board allocating a very substantial proportion of nbn’s scarce satellite bandwidth to QANTAS and other corporate highflyers and dataminers at bulk rates, when it can’t even deliver reasonable bandwidth at reasonable prices to average citizens on the ground in the bush?)

  230. shaneinqld permalink
    September 21, 2016 12:04 pm

    Neil

    For the hundred millionth time it was going to be Publicly Owned. Show me exactly where it was originally going to be privately built and owned !.

    I don’t give a rats about the completion date as it is the biggest infrastructure in our history.

    I have told you that FTTN is now going to be phased out and that they are designing FTTP ( the boundary of the premises rather than the actual house). I have this from one of the actual designers within Telstra. So in other words it is going to the gate of each property rather than a node in the street.

    So you are telling me that we would be bankrupt if we went to each house, but not bankrupt if we go to a node in each street and area for a number of houses. Honestly that is hysteria. Will we go bankrupt under the new FTTP/B under the LNP ?

  231. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 21, 2016 12:40 pm

    For the hundred millionth time it was going to be Publicly Owned. Show me exactly where it was originally going to be privately built and owned !.

    SHANE

    For the 10 millionith time this was Labors 2007 election promise. NBN-FTTN costing $4.7B and finished by 2013 and built by the private sector.

    The ALP lied to win the 2007 election because they threw their policy into the bin. This new NBN was thought up on the back of a drinks coaster during 2008-09 on some plane flight with no costings or plan

  232. Neil of Sydney permalink
    September 22, 2016 12:09 pm

    Shane

    You obviously do not know or have forgotten. The current NBN monstrosity was not what Rudd took to the 2007 election.

    Rudd took to the 2007election a NBN-FTTN policy costing $4.7B, built by the private sector and finished by 2013. That project went nowhere.

    Labors second broadband policy, NBN-FTTP built by a govt monopoly NBNCo was thought up on the back of a drinks coaster on some plane flight with no costings or plan sometime during 2008-09. The Coalition changed it to FTTN so we get it finished before we die and do not bankrupt the country.

    And you wonder why i do not trust the ALP.

  233. Tom R permalink
    September 23, 2016 5:26 pm

    Who’d have thought

  234. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 24, 2016 3:59 am

    Dirty grubs

    But we already knew that didn’t we?

    I suppose the taxpayers will fund it all as well, either with the church not paying tax or with the $ they will get for the no campaign. I find it obscene for the government to fund a hate campaign against it’s own citizens.

  235. September 24, 2016 12:46 pm

    Apparently the CUB workers are upset at being offered $70,000 – $120,000.

  236. Splatterbottom permalink
    September 25, 2016 2:53 pm

    The hate began weeks ago with Big Queer and its supporters vilifying their opponents. Now we have Heath Aston cheerleading for the haters with a juvenile article based on smear and innuendo.

    There is a fundamental link between all Big Queer agenda items. The fascist bullies at Big Queer have already sued the Australian Bishops for politely making the case for traditional marriage. Not only do they want to overthrow the values of Western civilisation in one generation they want to shut down all debate and opposition. Kill. Them. All.

  237. September 25, 2016 4:42 pm

    It all started to go downhill when we abolished slavery and gave women the vote.

    Whatever happened to the good old days?

  238. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 25, 2016 10:00 pm

    …There is a fundamental link between all Big Queer agenda items. The fascist bullies at Big Queer have already sued the Australian Bishops for politely making the case for traditional marriage…

    Politely making the case for big tradition and keeping big church in business?

    Let’s face it, what good have the australian bishops done anyone? They serve themselves and their paedophile ridden organisation. Even now at the RC they are unrepentant and continue to defend their own unconscionable conduct in protecting and sheltering the masses of child abusers within.

    Don’t make out it’s been anything more than the bishop’s rage at being stopped by a court of law [yes, a higher authority no less] from abusing their power over the good believers for their own purposes.

  239. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 25, 2016 10:07 pm

    Farrell scandal puts Catholic church’s attitude to Australian law under the microscope
    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/sep/24/farrell-scandal-puts-catholic-churchs-attitude-to-australian-law-under-the-microscope

    …As the royal commission continues its investigation, the question that emerges is whether the church sees itself as a separate realm answerable only to Rome…

  240. September 26, 2016 10:12 am

    We should wrap reb up in pink cotton wool to protect him from `Big-Queer` while we re-glue our `non-binding` veneer back on to our plebiscite. Amen.

  241. September 26, 2016 11:37 am

    Lesbian Sighting! After a hot`n heavy night at a `fun-buddies` house a few weeks ago, l was walking home, obviously in a good mood, when l `may` have sighted my first Lesbians `in` the flesh, so to speak. As we walked toward each other, l saw what l thought was a dude with short dark hair, holding hands with what l thought was a chick with shoulder length light brown hair, and she was holding the dog-leash with a small dog on the end.

    l am walking on the road side of the footpath. These people with the dog are on the house-side of the footpath. As we neared, l was watching the antics of the little dog bouncing around, and hadn`t really noticed the detail of the people at this stage. The little dog became more amusing to me when it squeezed out this huge turd on somebody`s front lawn. And l suppose l was smiling.

    These people are now stopped. And l am close enough to see they are both chicks, yep, boobs behind the shirts. Now this is the bit teebz will enjoy. The front-yard is the catlick church. l am now smiling ear to ear. How apropriate, and what great judgement the little dog has, that the Lesbian`s dog cacks on the church`s lawn.

    l am sure l smiled a little broader as l thought, the only thing that would make this even better was if we were all in South-Yarra. This is when l glance again at these two women, both of them glaring at me. Fcuk l thought, being a Lesbian mustn`t be much fun, or they`ve had some kind of domestic ding-dong. They should be enjoying the dog cacking on the church lawn at least as much as l am.

    lt took a couple of days, but the penny finally dropped. l think these folks think l was smiling (was-laughing) at them, hence their glaring, as l hadn`t said a peep to them. l think if l see them again l will say hello and encourage them to have their little dog cack on the church lawn.

  242. armchair opinionator permalink
    September 26, 2016 10:59 pm

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