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Wentworth Votes!

October 19, 2018

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All eyes will be on Wentworth this weekend as the local posh people head to the polls in their twin sets, pearls and mean pursed lips.

Home to Malcolm Turnbull, a once popular politician who has since ditched politics in favour of a reclusive lifestyle in New York, Wentworth is one of Australia’s wealthiest electorates. It takes in the affluent eastern suburbs of Sydney including Australia’s richest post code of Point Piper and has been held by the Liberal Party since Federation.

Malcolm remains a popular and high profile individual in the electorate and according to the mood on the street, there is palpable resentment over the way he was assassinated by Peter Dutton and his co-conspirators.

Despite being urged to support the Liberal Party contender Dave Sharma, Malcolm has been uncharacteristically silent, no doubt enjoying a fair serving of schadenfreude over the perilous state of affairs the Liberals now find themselves in.

If, as polls are suggesting, the Libs lose Wentworth it will be a mortal wound for Scott Morrison who is already on life support after a series of gaffes earlier this week.

Times are so desperate they even resuscitated the rotten corpse of serial liar and war criminal the lying rodent to campaign on their behalf.

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435 Comments leave one →
  1. October 19, 2018 11:47 am

    https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js

  2. Tom R permalink
    October 19, 2018 12:21 pm

    These knuckleheads can’t run their own party, let alone the country

  3. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 19, 2018 1:37 pm

    how we miss him

  4. Shane in QLD permalink
    October 19, 2018 2:28 pm

    The harbinger of GST and Workchoices and loses his own seat as PM and the wheel him in as some hero when his own electorate rejected him to the scrap heap.

    To think I voted for his government as well at the start.

  5. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 19, 2018 4:04 pm

    By the way, I like those photos of Howard. He’s still got it….

  6. TB Queensland permalink
    October 19, 2018 4:38 pm

    He’s still got it…. That spiteful nasty look?

    I’m still trying to figure out what a “normal Liberal” voter could possibly be … surely that’s an oxymoron?

    Is there such a thing?

  7. October 19, 2018 4:44 pm

    “He’s still got it….”

    That was him on the campaign trail trying to win over voters…

    I wonder how he went with that.

  8. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 19, 2018 6:14 pm

    My favourite Howard expression is top left

  9. TB Queensland permalink
    October 19, 2018 6:56 pm

    I’ve never had a favourite Howard “expression” …

    He actually looks like an angry monkey!

  10. TB Queensland permalink
    October 19, 2018 6:57 pm

    Nah! Confused monkey … must be missing the JH Private School Bullies …

  11. TB Queensland permalink
    October 19, 2018 7:07 pm

    To think I voted for his government as well at the start.

    You did what!

    You know you are responsible* for leaving children languishing on Nauru for over five years needing medical and psychological help … and suicides, riots by National PNG citizens, and medical problems on Manus Island?

    Kneel on you, Shane …

    I take it you are no longer a “normal Liberal” voter?

  12. Shane in QLD permalink
    October 20, 2018 5:37 am

    TB

    Never was a “normal Liberal” voter. A swinging voter and I plan to stay that way. Keep my own independence instead of a blind loyalty to one ideology or another. What I have done, as I have grown older, is realise that a seat that is safe for either side, is completely ignored and taken for granted, until it becomes marginal. A marginal seat is a far better result for its constituents instead of this safe seat, occupied by career driven and greedy local members.

    Seems my comments over the years, regarding the Banks and their greed driven habits since privatisation of the CBA and the introduction of American sales techniques by David Murray which drove the culture change, was spot on. Once again, a massive failure of privatisation for all banking customers and the whole of Australia. The CEOs of the time should be hauled before the courts or at the very least the RC to explain their actions at the time.

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/oct/19/nab-chief-tells-inquiry-banks-started-drifting-from-customers-20-years-ago

  13. shaneinqld permalink
    October 20, 2018 5:41 am

    TB

    I gave up reading Neil as it is always the same comment. He does exactly the same at the Guardian. I skip past his comments along with Walrus. No interest in what they have to say anymore. They have the right to comment here and I respect that and I have the right to roll past their comments.

  14. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 20, 2018 10:53 am

    “how we miss him”

    I do. Govt debt went from 7% to 18% of GDP under Hawke/Keating. Howard took that down to zero by 2007. In fact we had $40B in the bank. Net debt is now at $350B. That is an increase of almost $400B in debt since 2007.

    And what have we built with that $400B?

  15. Know`Collusion`Teabag permalink
    October 20, 2018 11:26 am

    I`ve been loving the teabag panic gushing down their legs this week over wentworth. Also loved pauline leading the teabags into their `whitePower` vote. For the trifecta; all we need is barney to impregnate the teabumpkins behind the woolshed. @yaaay.imbeciles

  16. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 20, 2018 4:49 pm

    Does Neil comment at the Guardian? They’re very democratic !

  17. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 20, 2018 5:22 pm

    Raw govt debt numbers. Net debt was $16B in 1983. $96B in 1996. minus $40B in 2007 ie less than zero and $350B now

    So almost $400B increase in debt since 2007. All spent on recurrent spending. Almost nothing was built with that money. I guess schools halls and roof insulation.

  18. TB Queensland permalink
    October 20, 2018 5:59 pm

    They’re very democratic !

    LOL! In a US way!

    You’ll notice too that Dick doesn’t understand that most of the debt we now have was rafted up under THREE Liberal PM’s in five years … and just ignore the GFC …

    It would be funny if it wasn’t so fkn serious …

  19. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 20, 2018 6:10 pm

    Wrong most of the debt was racked up under Rudd/Gillard

    Net debt went from minus $40B to plus $209B under Rudd/Gillard an increase of $250B in just 6 years

    It went from $209B in 2013 to $350B now. An increase of $140B under the Coalition.

    AS usual TB you are wrong. Your only purpose in life appears to be to tells lies and lock up boat people

  20. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 20, 2018 6:21 pm

    Your only purpose in life appears to be to tells lies and lock up boat people

    I think you mean – Your only purposesin life are

  21. TB Queensland permalink
    October 20, 2018 11:43 pm

    Chuckle purposesin life …

  22. Rusher`is`FakeNews`Teabag permalink
    October 21, 2018 12:13 am

    Haw haw haw. The phelps chick smoked the teabags! lt seems all the pentacostle prayers to the skyfairy didn’t work!

  23. October 21, 2018 12:28 am

    The winged monkeys are devouring each other! Great sport & a tremendous spectacle.

    I’m convinced that they truly believe that they represent a silent majority…even when nearly all recent history suggests the profound opposite.

    I now live to see fuckhead the wankfool dethroned from Warringah, soon…

  24. October 21, 2018 12:30 am

    My mother is very pleased to see the former head of the AMA elected to Parliament.

    Expecting a bit more humanity on a few fronts, I’d suggest.

  25. Shane in QLD permalink
    October 21, 2018 7:02 am

    TB

    Here are the facts about our net debt.

    Actually a very interesting read and it explains things in English unlike politicians.

    http://theconversation.com/factcheck-has-australias-net-debt-doubled-under-the-current-government-100819

  26. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 21, 2018 8:27 am

    Shane

    Table 4 gives the net debt numbers

    https://www.budget.gov.au/2018-19/content/bp1/download/bp1_bs11.pdf

    1996- $96B
    2007- minus $40B ie less than zero
    2013- $209B
    2018- $350B

    You cannot put a % increase on the net debt increase under Rudd/Gillard because it went from negative to positive from minus $40B to plus $209B

  27. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 21, 2018 10:03 am

    The Liberals are f***ed, which is hilarious really.

  28. October 21, 2018 10:07 am

    Scott Morrison’s “concession” speech was a sight to behold. He’s completely unhinged.

  29. Skyfairy`Dust`Teabag permalink
    October 21, 2018 10:26 am

    l was thinking the same thing about warringah too dunny. l reckon there will be other small-L seats and tepid working class seats around the country to be snagged by quality indy/s from both the zombies and teabag-lite. l also noticed team blib only got 11% in wentworth. l still reckon team stooten won`t be able to hammer throw blib over the line; and the greenz seem stalled; but there might be a chance for a watermelon to bloom with a heap of indy/s tending the cabbage garden.

  30. October 21, 2018 11:01 am

    In case you missed ScuMo’s sermon last night, here it is …

    https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js

  31. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 21, 2018 11:59 am

    “The Liberals are f***ed, which is hilarious really.”

    No Australia is. Beats me what people see in the ALP. Keating wins an election with unemployment at 11% and the Coalition cannot win an election with unemployment at 5%

  32. Drain`it`Now`Teabag permalink
    October 21, 2018 3:12 pm

    Shane, l understand what you/author are saying from a this-team, that-team perspective. This bit gets my attention tho. “ Gross debt is the total amount of money a government owes to other parties. Net debt is gross debt, adjusted for some of the assets a government owns and earns interest on. Not all government assets are included in the calculation of net debt. ” To me it really looks much more like meaningless econoBabble that teabags and LimitedNews can beat the rest about the head with, even fraudulently. So when treasury sheds our assets; say a bank that use to return interest/profit to treasury is sold; while treasury funds toothless asic/apra panda/s the bank sneers at; and treasury also funds royal investigations into crimes the now privatized bank commits; while treasury also funds the war-dept to murder iraq citizens for no reason. Or we could look at treasury being shed of the teleco at the dawn of digital age; once privatized, refusing to modernize which forces treasury to pay/build a 2nd telco; then pay for the sabotage of 2nd telco and also the hijacking of boats at sea and building offshore gulags; and ultimately the repairing of 2nd telco. In short, the metric is kind`a bullshit and not as useful to the public as legacy outlets are sucked in to believe. How much debt is due to iraq war?? What did treasury get for bank (minus royal-comm cost)?? What did treasury get for telecom (minus fiberCo cost)?? What annual income does treasury now forego from bank sale?? telco sale??

  33. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 21, 2018 3:34 pm

    “Gross debt is the total amount of money a government owes to other parties. Net debt is gross debt, adjusted for some of the assets a government owns and earns interest on.”

    Correct!!!!!!!!!!!

    When the Coalition was running surplus budgets there was no need to borrow money. So an enquiry was made into shutting down the bond market since the govt did not need to borrow any more.

    The enquiry decided to keep the bond market open and to always borrow $50-$55B even though the govt did not need the money. The borrowed money which we did not need was then reinvested. We were earning $1B/year on this reinvested money until Rudd/Gillard trashed the budget. This image shows how govt debt remained constant from 2003-2007 until TB of Queensland trashed the budget

  34. Cut`The`Wires`Teabag permalink
    October 21, 2018 5:05 pm

    Any caged parrot can be trained to recite a few lines over and over and over, tho it can never explain how or why it crapped in its bowl of seed.

  35. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 21, 2018 5:26 pm

    Net debt was zero in 2007 and less than zero in 2007.

    Our detention centers were empty in 2007.

    Then you Toilet, TB, REb, Shane, Walrus locked up 50,000 boat people.

    None of you have ever apologised for your immoral behaviour

  36. TB Queensland permalink
    October 21, 2018 10:08 pm

    None of you have ever apologised for your immoral behaviour

    ‘Cause we are not FUCKWITS like you, Dick … like your kindy Liberal mates …

  37. Shane in QLD permalink
    October 22, 2018 5:59 am

    Drain

    I agree but the link was still interesting reading and gave me a better insight. I have no doubt both sides manipulate figures, despite any claims to the contrary.

    Reb

    As you know I support independents as it helps stop the duopoly we call a democracy in this country. Either party always downplay any swing against them, the ALP used to own the biggest swing in history, now that is owned by the LNP. No matter what they say in public earning the No 1 spot would have to be of serious concern.

    What the result of the by election and also the SSM vote did show me was that the majority of Aussies reject extremism and religious intervention in their politics.

    I see that Jane Caro is poised to run against Tony Abbott, if that results in her election then the swing back to independents might be on a roll.

    The worst part of Kerryn Phelps was that she directed her preferences to the LNP.

    Any Independent should leave preferences up to the voters otherwise you really are a ALP or LNP stool pigeon and not a true Independent.

    What I do find amazing is the clients I have that complain about our assets being sold off yet they still blindly vote for the same party over and over again.

    I voted against Paul Keating because he sold off the CBA and I knew what would eventuate and here we are with an RC due to exactly the reason I believed it should remain in public ownership.

    Sadly voting for John Howard resulted in an even faster disposal of public assets that now gouge the citizens at every opportunity from Airports to Roads to Power to Water.

    Taught me a lesson in the ideology of either of the duopoly.

  38. Tom R permalink
    October 22, 2018 9:17 am

    Did something happen on the weekend?

    All I care about is when we get to vote this mob out

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-22/full-employment-myth-and-why-our-youth-are-missing-out/10402308

  39. October 22, 2018 9:22 am

    An interesting assessment of Scott Morrison’s speech on Saturday night…

    https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/national/2018/10/21/scott-morrison-wentworth-speech/

  40. Tom R permalink
    October 22, 2018 9:27 am

    lol, the “Great Sookening”

    “There can be only none!”

  41. Tom R permalink
    October 22, 2018 9:30 am

    That’s classic reb

    “I really like Scott Morrison, I’m enjoying him. He’s like Australia’s relief teacher – he doesn’t look quite right and you know he’s not going to be around long and while he’s in, we can just all muck up.”

  42. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 22, 2018 9:56 am

    Replace a popular leader with an unpopular one and electoral defeat follows.

    I think that my have happened on another occasion.

  43. Tom R permalink
    October 22, 2018 10:35 am

    Electoral defeat was happening here regardless.

    It’s just the size of it now

  44. Tom R permalink
    October 22, 2018 10:43 am

    Hell hath no fury … bullshit

  45. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 22, 2018 11:14 am

    I see that Rudd claims that he offered Gillard a Kirribilli style leadership transition, and Gillard declined

    And I think Rudd is accurate in his assessment of various ALP characters, particularly Swan

  46. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 22, 2018 11:21 am

    I voted for Rudd – because (in my opinion) a Rudd victory would have resulted in much needed reform of the ALP structure, and I couldn’t stand Abbott.

    Years ago I got to know one of his advisers, and even over drinks there was no suggestion that he was anything other than a hard worker. I think the anti Rudd sentiment among ALP types is similar to the criticism that Turnbull is now getting from the right wing of the Liberals

    That is hard line types loathe successful moderates

  47. October 22, 2018 11:42 am

    I quite like Kevin Rudd. Intelligent, articulate, hard working, and has a sense of humour.

    Yes he may have been a control freak and a perfectionist.

    But are these necessarily bad qualities when it comes to running the country?

  48. Tom R permalink
    October 22, 2018 11:44 am

    particularly Swan

    Yea, and the IMF don’t know what they are doing lol

    I think the anti Rudd sentiment among ALP types is similar to the criticism that Turnbull is now getting from the right wing of the Liberals

    rudd backstabbed his own party, to the point they became unworkable. turnbull simply carried out his proomise to his party. He gave everything away for the leadership, with only one proviso, dump me and I quit.

    He quit when they dumped him.

    rudds still having a hissy

  49. Tom R permalink
    October 22, 2018 11:47 am

    But are these necessarily bad qualities when it comes to running the country?

    I guess it depends on if that country is a democracy or dictatorship

  50. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 22, 2018 11:55 am

    Rudd was backstabbed by the ALP numbers men/hacks/ factional warlords.

    Remember how the challenge was unknown to the caucus, at the time the National AWU Secretary was commenting on it on TV.

    Remember how Paul Howes was overheard plotting just before he went on air. Was it Leigh Sales that questioned him about the plotting conversation

    The caucus was left in the dark while people outside the parliament decided to remove a Prime Minister!

    That’s how the ALP operates. Only the most ardent barrackers ignore the ugly structure of the ALP.

  51. TB Queensland permalink
    October 22, 2018 12:18 pm

    And Piggy Paul Howes never did get his spot in Parliament … his Boris Johnson (Brexit) moment one might say …

    Years ago I got to know one of his advisers, and even over drinks

    That explains a lot – Rudd saw himself way above the plebs …* 🙂 (Never a fan of Rudd or Gillard … KR was a pretty good shadow FM … but he even blew it with the Chinese!

    Loose Lips Sink Ships!

    Only the most ardent barrackers ignore the ugly structure of the ALP.

    Unlike the beautiful hierarchy, fully functional and non-factional structure of the LNP …

    And of course – money is no object …

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/oct/22/coalition-suppressed-auditors-finding-that-13bn-thales-arms-deal-could-have-cost-half-with-us

    Cut welfare and give it to the French …

  52. Tom R permalink
    October 22, 2018 12:19 pm

    unseating pm’s is dirty. There is no ‘right’ way.

    Knowing what we know now about rudd, it was probably the best way.

    Why they didn’t know it about rudd and made him leader in the first place says more about ALP structures than the method of rolling him.

  53. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 22, 2018 12:35 pm

    There is no ‘right’ way.

    Maybe, but to have a union official – who is not even part of the parliamentary caucus – providing the public commentary of knifing Rudd and reassuring Gillard that the knifing was necessary, is about the worst possible example.

    It’s the nature of the ALP caucus to just fall into line with the demands of the factional warlords – and that is objectionable, bordering on utterly unethical

  54. Tom R permalink
    October 22, 2018 1:06 pm

    It’s interesting

    I thought it was Bill Shorten responsible, or Mark Arbib, Swan, Gillard. Now it seems Howes was responsible

    Or is it just the list of those responsible extends to … well, many within Labor?

  55. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 22, 2018 1:28 pm

    Howes was the one big noting himself on the ABC – after assuring Gillard that she had to knife Rudd.

    Remember (the undenied) report that Rudd asked Gillard for a little more time and she (apparently) accepted this. Howes told her this was unacceptable – so she returned to Rudd and advised that he was a goner.

    At least Arbib, Shorten, Swan etc were members of the caucus – who were entitled to choose their leader

    Howes was the media performer, looking to promote his powerful image – that went well.

    As I said – only the most ardent of barrackers would seek to excuse the manipulation of the caucus by people outside the parliament

  56. Tom R permalink
    October 22, 2018 1:49 pm

    BREAKING NEWS

    Political Parties consist of more than representatives

    Who’d have thunk it!

  57. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 22, 2018 1:59 pm

    Imagine the president of the business council (for example) going on the ABC and advising that they’d decided to replace the PM.

    I think you’d regard that as poor form.

    The power of the ALP has very little to do with the people we vote into parliament – but you seem fine with that.

  58. Tom R permalink
    October 22, 2018 2:04 pm

    I think you’d regard that as poor form.

    Of course I would, but that’s because the libs and business pretend they are “independent”, whereas Labor and the Unions wear it on their sleeve.

    Even when they disagree

  59. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 22, 2018 2:09 pm

    Yeah… so the likes of Howes (or his successors) are great for the ALP

  60. Tom R permalink
    October 22, 2018 2:16 pm

    I think you give Howes way too much credit

    He might have been the one being mouthy, but the coup came from within

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/programs/killing-season/2015-06-16/killing-season-gillard-rudd-coup/6494220

    great for the ALP

    Like Shorten 😉

  61. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 22, 2018 2:30 pm

    That’s right, Howes crapped in his own nest – he showed exceptionally poor judgement – but the ALP saw him as a star.

    To have him telling the ALP deputy leader that she could not back off on the challenge was an outrage.

    All political parties are flawed, but the ALP structure isn’t transparent or ethical,

    Even though there are a few well intentioned people in the party, their efforts are swamped by the hacks and warlords

  62. Tom R permalink
    October 22, 2018 2:32 pm

    To have him telling the ALP deputy leader that she could not back off on the challenge was an outrage

    I think you are starting to remember your own version of events now yomm 😉

  63. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 22, 2018 2:38 pm

    And there aren’t even many well intentioned people in the ALP these days – remember John Button, Barry Jones, Gareth Evans, Peter Walsh, John Dawkins, Neale Blewett and even that well known christian, Bill Hayden.

    The ALP used to be full of independent thinkers – who would have told the factional warlords to jam it. Not now, I think Bowen and Albanese – possibly.

  64. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 22, 2018 2:46 pm

    I think you’ll find that Leigh Sales overheard the conversation between Howes and Gillard immediately before Gillard returned to Rudd to advise him that he had no more time.

    Gillard acted on the instruction from Howes.

  65. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 22, 2018 2:53 pm

    So just continuing the history.

    During the last year of the Keating government – that’s when the external factionalism got out of control.

    Keating was a natural reformer – he always had a plan. He had a reform plan for the waterfront (for example) but the unions stymied that – and paved the way for the Reith/Corrigan action that followed.

    Then Simon Crean wanted to balance the control of the unions with membership voting – and the unions undermined him, and tried to kick him out of his seat!

    Unions should stick to looking after their members without having to consider the political implications for the ALP.

  66. Tom R permalink
    October 22, 2018 3:16 pm

    I think you’ll find that Leigh Sales overheard the conversation

    lol, you’re ‘informant’ is sales ROFL

    perhaps you could be more specific?

    but the unions stymied that

    So they should have.

    and paved the way for the Reith/Corrigan action that followed.

    As we have seen, business isn’t happy even if they get their way.

  67. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 22, 2018 3:41 pm

    The waterfront was rortsville and Keating understood this, but regardless of that, you’d oppose Keating’s plan?

  68. Tom R permalink
    October 22, 2018 3:45 pm

    you’d oppose Keating’s plan?

    Only on the principal of, in hindsight, he had already made enough concessions to business.

  69. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 22, 2018 5:40 pm

    The waterfront was in need of reform, and Keating had a reform plan. Unions screwed him, and ever since they’ve screwed the ALP

  70. TB Queensland permalink
    October 22, 2018 6:28 pm

    As I said – only the most ardent of barrackers would seek to excuse the manipulation of the caucus by people outside the parliament

    So what’s the story with the Chambers of Commerce, Australian Industry Group, The Retailers Association, The Mining Association, Australian Banking Association … and all the other Professional and Trade Associations … ad infinitum …

    They don’t influence the ALP … who do they fiddle with?

    You do realise that your statement above is not only partisan but really quite silly … manipulation – outside parliament … GUFFAW! …

    … 2GB, 4BC, news.com.au, Murdoch Inc., The Catholic Church Inc., The Church of England P/L, Protestant Churchies LTD., Hilltop United Happy Clappy Club …

    I know who’s ardent! Chuckle … 🙂

  71. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 22, 2018 6:40 pm

    You do realise that your statement above is not only partisan but really quite silly … 

    Allow me to return that compliment TB… I think you’re incredibly naive, biased and silly

  72. TB Queensland permalink
    October 22, 2018 10:16 pm

    Allow me to return that compliment TB…

    Not biased at all … just playing Devil’s Advocate as usual … countering this …

    seek to excuse the manipulation of the caucus by people outside the parliament

    As if that only applies to the ALP and Unions … just what do you think corporate organisations are? Simply Unions … who influence (with far more money and power) … the LNP machine … it does need a bit more grease(ing) just lately tho’ …

    Naive … not at my age sunshine and not with what I’ve seen/experienced of BOTH side of the corporate fence …

  73. Tom R permalink
    October 23, 2018 8:41 am

    The waterfront was in need of reform, and Keating had a reform plan.

    So, do you have a link to this plan?

  74. Tom R permalink
    October 23, 2018 8:49 am

    Interesting

    Hey, only $BILLIONS later, they realize that the original was the best

    Of course, we know they knew that, which makes this worst 😦

  75. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 23, 2018 9:16 am

    Keating stopped being PM over 20 years ago, did they have links then?

  76. Tom R permalink
    October 23, 2018 9:44 am

    #ChangeTheRules

    He made the comments after finding that an AWU official had breached the Fair Work Act by asking a BlueScope manager not to dock returning strikers’ pay for starting their shift late.

    https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/kelly-o-dwyer-warns-of-industrial-anarchy-ahead-of-union-mega-rally-20181022-p50b7a.html

  77. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 23, 2018 9:51 am

    Paraphrasing TB- but, but, but…. look at them…

  78. TB Queensland permalink
    October 23, 2018 10:32 am

    Funny, ToM … I’m flattered … chuckle 🙂

  79. Tom R permalink
    October 23, 2018 10:45 am

    I have no idea what yomm is rabbitting about

    but, look at them!

  80. Tom R permalink
    October 23, 2018 11:08 am

  81. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 23, 2018 11:15 am

    I really don’t take much notice of flag waving people in the street.

    A couple of decades ago I would have encouraged all that, but I’ve matured.

  82. Tom R permalink
    October 23, 2018 11:22 am

    but I’ve matured.

    I think you meant but ……… but……. but I’ve matured. 😉

  83. TB Queensland permalink
    October 23, 2018 11:59 am

    Pity the comments haven’t … a lot of them are on the nose tho’ …

  84. TB Queensland permalink
    October 23, 2018 12:00 pm

    😀

  85. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 23, 2018 12:07 pm

    Proof that Sydney is more civilized than Melbourne. 15 times as many protest in Melbourne

    https://www.theage.com.au/business/workplace/melbourne-union-rally-crowd-expected-to-be-15-times-bigger-than-sydney-why-20181023-p50bb0.html

  86. Shane in QLD permalink
    October 23, 2018 12:22 pm

    ToM R

    While I do not read Neils comments I hope he reads your comment further up in relation to the NBN and now the billions they will waste fixing it back to original design. The LNP have now wasted untold billions on a system that was faulty from the beginning of their intervention in the NBN. Once again a colossal fuck up.

  87. Walrus permalink
    October 23, 2018 1:33 pm

    “Proof that Sydney is more civilized than Melbourne……”

    Yep………..just not that militant here

  88. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 23, 2018 2:16 pm

    On a bright note, it looks like the size of the ALP win will mean that they won’t have to brown nose to the militant unions to grift every possible vote out of that cohort.

    They can form government owing unions only their normal level of debt, subservience and gratitude

  89. TB Queensland permalink
    October 23, 2018 2:26 pm

    And the COAL industry wasted quite a few million on its investment with the LNP … I guess …

    Just chucklin’

  90. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 23, 2018 2:36 pm

    There you go again TB, you just can’t resist the – but, but, but… look at them

    Criticism of the ALP seems intolerable to you

  91. TB Queensland permalink
    October 23, 2018 2:38 pm

    I remember reaching the stage that I turned off Julia Gillard whenever she appeared on my TV … I just realised I’m doing the same with Morrison …

    Not a good sign … for him … and if the LNP Consortium want to blame anyone, I suggest they look no further than The Mad Abbott and his accomplice in political clownery Bananaby Joke …

    I still shudder at the thought of how many people actually vote for these turkeys … and then the chooks that elect them as “leaders” … fkn astounding …

  92. TB Queensland permalink
    October 23, 2018 3:03 pm

    https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/workplace/thousands-attend-actu-rally-in-melbourne-and-sydney-to-fight-against-low-pay-20181022-p50b5g.html

    May need to scroll after the 400 warning …

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    ToM, its called balance … something you don’t seem to “get” … if the pendulum doesn’t swing all your way you just fire up …

    Its not about “look at them” its more about open yer eyes … and see rather than look … always two sides to every story …

    The technique never got me thrown out of a boardroom but it did make people review and revise their first conclusions …

    The reason the protests are happening in Sydney and Melbourne right now are because no-one who supports the LNP sees what’s happening to the majority of Australians … their lives are not about making money to spend on political parties to make more money … their lives are about making enough to feed their families, pay the mortgage, health, education, and government support when its needed, climate change, NBN, power prices … and for that they need a fkn pay rise!

    You are obviously not a rocket scientist.

    It has not gone unnoticed that you hijack the blog with the daily schedule (often a day before) of the LNP Conspiracy Club …

    Sure I support ALP … show me just one decent policy from the LNP and I might consider them too …

  93. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 23, 2018 3:22 pm

    No worries TB, I know to expect that every time I comment on the structure of the ALP, you will post – but, but, but…. look at them…

  94. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 23, 2018 5:03 pm

    Shane

    Nobody is arguing that Labors fibre network is not the best. It is too expensive however. Nobody really knows how much it would cost or how long it would take to build. ALP supporters do not appear to care about poor people

    https://www.afr.com/technology/web/nbn/costs-balloon-in-allfibre-national-broadband-network-rollout-20171020-gz56pk

    “The potential cost of Labor’s original ambitious all-fibre national broadband network model has been revealed with documents which show that it cost up to $91,196 to connect a single premises.
    Ravenswood in east Launceston, Tasmania, is at the centre of why the Turnbull government scrapped Labor’s all-fibre NBN rollout in favour of its multi-technology mix, following a strategic review of the project when it was elected in 2013.
    Tucked away in a remote area, building fibre all the way into one property cost $91,196, while another property, a bowling club in Invermay, Tasmania, cost $86,533 to activate a fibre-to-the-premises service, due to substantial remediation work.”

  95. TB Queensland permalink
    October 23, 2018 7:30 pm

    No worries TB … None here either … 🙂

    I enjoy pointing out the sameness … chuckle …

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Tucked away in a remote area, building fibre all the way into one property cost $91,196, while another property, a bowling club in Invermay, Tasmania, cost $86,533 to activate a fibre-to-the-premises service, due to substantial remediation work.”

    And oddly enough most of us live right next door to each other and on a long coastline from Victoria to Queensland (check a map … and NZ has a speed of 400mbps!) … and most of us aren’t members of the local bowls club … and I note it was due to substantial remediation work

    Oddly enough a three or four years ago I commented that a local Freemasons Retirement Home (that was operating in the 1960’s) had NBN … just the home, no suburbs around it had NBN until this year … and lo and behold last year the Retirement Home was sold to a private operator … now I wonder which local Liberal member was a Mason and knew a retirement home business owner?

    Get a life DICK!

  96. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 23, 2018 7:48 pm

    FTTP costs approx. $4,000 to install and FTTN costs approx. $2,000.

    Fact is under Labors plan before Turnbull changed it one premise cost $91,000 to connect to fibre.

    Like most ALP supporters you are deceitful and do not care about the poor. Of course FTTP is the best. But how much would it cost? Is it worth the extra money?..

    BTW TomR’s tweet which Shane directed me to is a fraud I think. There was a response from NBNCo to that tweet saying there was something wrong. I don’t think NBNCo would give that advice

  97. TB Queensland permalink
    October 23, 2018 8:06 pm

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/oct/23/gun-lobby-makes-no-mention-of-guns-in-victorian-election-ad-blitz

    Those FKN UNIONS! oh! Wait! Shooting Industry Foundation of Australia

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Dick, Is it worth the extra money?.. You have no idea what you are arguing about …

    Fact is under Labors plan before Turnbull changed it one premise cost $91,000 to connect to fibre.

    Probably a friend of the Liberal Party …

    In Australia there are 9 million homes … the “cost” you refer to is out in the Never Never!

    An isolated case not every home would cost $91,000 you, Dick!

  98. TB Queensland permalink
    October 23, 2018 8:09 pm

    Scott Morrison has shot down an overture by Labor aimed at breaking the political deadlock over Nauru, declaring “you don’t horse-trade on border protection”.

    So what’s changed … Morrison has always been a part of the problem … Happy Clappy Christian … should be ashamed of his hypocritical religious beliefs – purgatory was invented for Morriscums …

  99. TB Queensland permalink
    October 23, 2018 8:15 pm

    https://www.news.com.au/national/politics/scott-morrison-hands-malcolm-turnbull-surprising-new-gig/news-story/d88d6f4e6dd4d271b1a248f2f022214c

    Aw FFS! I thought Malfunction had told reporters he was “retired” from politics!

    Flip flop! Flip flop! Flip flop! Flip flop! Flip flop!

    And ToM gives us a hard time over the ALP?

    Jesus wept!

  100. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 23, 2018 8:17 pm

    Exactly, that is why Turnbull changed some of those places out in the never never to FTTN

    BTW NBNCo responded to TomR’s tweet which Shane directed me to

  101. TB Queensland permalink
    October 23, 2018 10:31 pm

    I give up … again …

  102. Shane in QLD permalink
    October 24, 2018 6:43 am

    TB

    We know ToM hates unions and cannot see past his own bias. There were a couple of militant unions but since Howard, the teeth of ALL unions have been pulled out. Young people do not join a union because they are unaware of what has been lost over the years before they were even born. A new generation growing up with less employee benefits, casual working, no payrises (or only the minimum possible), no super being paid and companies putting the onus on taxpayers as they declare bankruptcy only to reopen, 457 visas, full time positions being dumped and staff forced to tender for their previous job holding an ABN as a contractor. The list is endless while the top management enjoy more and more and more. I could quote over 30 benefits taken from CBA staff since I originally joined, yet the top salary is now obscene compared to those days.

    In the meantime the benefits to big business has skyrocketed and their ability to do what they like enshrined in ideology.

    The inequality has been growing and will continue to grow. I just consider myself lucky I will not be here in 30 years time. I believe our generation will end up being detested in history for greed and not taking action despite facts and evidence showing reality in so many areas.

    1 tree took a week to fell 100 years ago, now 1 acre can be totally cleared between 2 bulldozers and a massive chain in 1 minute. Witnessed it in Nyngan, where they now have salt rising from the table making land desolate.

    Don’t know if you remember the massive fire in the Warrumbungle National Park at Coonabarabran ( my home town) 6 years ago where over 53,000 hectares was burnt
    out with the town saved by a very lucky wind change. The town used to be considered lucky in the area receiving rainfall (even during drought)when the rest of the area did not. Since the fire the rainfall no longer comes and the town has had much less than the surrounding areas. Even those who were climate change sceptics are starting to comment about it and realising that the forest was the reason we had better rainfall for the town. It created an atmosphere of moisture and drew down the rainfall fronm the clouds. So their own misfortune is making them research and actually realise that the science is correct. Still have some diehards who will never accept that out continual clearing and felling of forest has no impact.

  103. shaneinqld permalink
    October 24, 2018 6:46 am

    TB

    I just scroll past anything Neil has to say, not interested in debating him ever again.

  104. shaneinqld permalink
    October 24, 2018 6:50 am

    Actually there is a bit of hope. A new younger generation who have been exposed to science and facts seems to be rising and hopefully they will force change on those who refuse to place evidence and facts before ideology in a lot of areas.

  105. shaneinqld permalink
    October 24, 2018 7:30 am

    Karl Marx must have been a prophet to have written this

    “The final stages of capitalism, Marx wrote, would be marked by developments that are intimately familiar to most of us. Unable to expand and generate profits at past levels, the capitalist system would begin to consume the structures that sustained it. It would prey upon, in the name of austerity, the working class and the poor, driving them ever deeper into debt and poverty and diminishing the capacity of the state to serve the needs of ordinary citizens. It would, as it has, increasingly relocate jobs, including both manufacturing and professional positions, to countries with cheap pools of laborers. Industries would mechanize their workplaces. This would trigger an economic assault on not only the working class but the middle class—the bulwark of a capitalist system—that would be disguised by the imposition of massive personal debt as incomes declined or remained stagnant. Politics would in the late stages of capitalism become subordinate to economics, leading to political parties hollowed out of any real political content and abjectly subservient to the dictates and money of global capitalism.”

  106. TB Queensland permalink
    October 24, 2018 10:39 am

    Karl Marx – 1818 – 1883 ….. prophet genius …

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx

    Seems the LNP bring a self-fulfilling prophecy on their heads – and, unfortunately, on ours …

    Shane, I just read that quote to The Minister … its a sobering (chilling?) reflection.

  107. Tom R permalink
    October 24, 2018 10:40 am

    I just scroll past anything Neil has to say, not interested in debating him ever again.

    A wise decision. He is pointless

    the teeth of ALL unions have been pulled out

    Exactly, that link Tom put up a while ago about the requirements for strike was amazing

  108. TB Queensland permalink
    October 24, 2018 10:51 am

    I see that SloMo “will not horse trade with Labor over borders” …

    The day The Prime Preacher apologised to adults, whose lives were destroyed as children, by institutional abuse … (shakes head)

    Does this Happy Clappy Christian hypocrite realise we are talking about children … think about that – especially if you have children/grandchildren of your own … children …

    Morriscum is no better (in fact worse) than the people smugglers he purports to be stopping … using a wall of children? GMAFB!

    Australia has in fact … thanks to the Liberal Party … become a nation of children traffickers.

    If a nation state (NZ) offers them a place in their society, then to refuse to allow that is surely deprivation of liberty and kidnapping …

    This is not the Australia I want …

    Time For a Change!

  109. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 24, 2018 11:23 am

    TomR

    Pointless?

    Well here is a point. I followed your twitter link and to my surprise someone from NBNCo replied to NerdyNigel. Sounds like it is a spam twitter post

  110. TB Queensland permalink
    October 24, 2018 12:23 pm

    You really are a Dick, Dick and a deceitful Dick at that … you can’t even do that properly …

    Spam? I know who the spammer is …

  111. TB Queensland permalink
    October 24, 2018 12:25 pm

    LOL!

  112. TB Queensland permalink
    October 24, 2018 12:28 pm

    What a busy little lad you are Dick, Twitter- Facebook – Guardian – Gutter Trash … bleating the same Liberal nonsense … just who pays you?

  113. shaneinqld permalink
    October 24, 2018 12:32 pm

    TB

    Yes it a very sobering prediction indeed. Some people have vision his problem was his vision was hijacked by those with ego and greed and a lack of compassion for their citizens.

  114. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 24, 2018 12:49 pm

    TB

    Since the tweet was posted on this blog I decided to read the comments. Anything wrong with that? To my surprise there was a tweet from NBNCo. It looks like the letter produced by Nigel is spam.

    Also current problems with NBN have nothing to do with changes made by Turnbull and everything to go with the way Labor set up NBNCo on a plane flight in 2009.

    Furthermore Labor put the NBN off-budget so it cannot be funded like roads etc and then the plan was to sell it when finished. But who would have the money to buy it? What is going to happen is that the NBNCo debt will have to be added to our national debt and the NBN written off.

    Then 5G will come in and make the NBN obsolete

  115. Walrus permalink
    October 24, 2018 1:25 pm

    “Australia has in fact … thanks to the Liberal Party … become a nation of children traffickers. “”

    Oh FFS………….what hypocrisy. It was your lot that locked them up in the first place.

    The LNP has been releasing them

    FMD

  116. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 24, 2018 1:27 pm

    Shane, I think you’re characterisation of my opinion about unions is over simplified.

    There are unions that are too militant, and bullying is part of their operations model. This is unsatisfactory.

    My other issue is the political affiliation. I think this blurs their focus and is unhelpful to the ALP.

    I’m my opinions are reasonably informed and are even shared by lots of ALP members.

  117. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 24, 2018 3:01 pm

    ….and before anyone else comments –

    I think I mean – “your characterisation” and – “My opinions…”

  118. shaneinqld permalink
    October 24, 2018 4:08 pm

    Wrote this at the Guardian with the unveiling of Julia Gillard portrait.

    Julia Gillard.
    Poise
    Grace
    Elegance
    Respect
    Polite
    Calm
    Forgiving
    Generous
    Thoughtful
    A good speaker
    A tough negotiator
    A consensus outcome achiever

    The more I see Julia these days, the more I long for a time where our PM was all these things instead of the shouting aggressive hatred that we have seen since her demise. Male or Female these are qualities they should all be aspiring to. Politics might be a tough game but they have now turned it into a hate filled, greed obsessed, house of self interest pillaged by donors and the rich.

  119. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 24, 2018 4:11 pm

    Shane

    I remember the hate from you lot in 2007 to Howard. And that is with a booming economy and almost full employment.

    When I think of ALP supporters I see nothing but hate and greed

  120. shaneinqld permalink
    October 24, 2018 4:15 pm

    ToM

    The ALP was created by the unions, do you expect the unions to have no input. That is like expecting the LNP to ignore all the business groups, the IPA and other lobbyists with the same ideals.

    I have never seen you say one positive word about unions, yet I have agreed with you at times to criticise certain actions by unions when it is warranted.

    When a company can keep union representatives off a site where a member has died on the job, when a company can lock out workers without notice, but a union is required to give 3 days notice of any action and that action must be subject to a secret ballot first, when companies can not pay superannuation for years without recourse and then declare bankruptcy leaving the taxpayer to foot the bill, when it is against the law for a union to pay its members while on strike to support the families, but a company can pay donations to political parties to achieve its own aims etc etc the pendulum has not swing too far it has been ripped off.

  121. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 24, 2018 4:42 pm

    Shane there were plenty of ALP luminaries that thought it was time for the unions and the ALP to have “an amicable divorce”

    The view of informed people (like John Button) was that unions were becoming increasingly conflicted by the political affiliation, and this was part of the reason for such strong politicisation of the industrial relations system.

    There was plenty of discussion about the subject over decade ago.There is little ALP debate about it these days (I think) because it is such a strong career option for union officials.

  122. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 24, 2018 5:02 pm

    This is an interesting comment on the subject – very old – and reflective of the debate at the time –

    https://www.theage.com.au/national/where-john-button-is-right-20020711-gdudsp.html

  123. shaneinqld permalink
    October 24, 2018 5:08 pm

    ToM

    There may have been ALP luminaries but that does not alter the fact that the ALP was created by the unions and why should they divorce the political party they created.

    Do you honestly think the LNP will divorce form business and all their associations ( read UNIONS) or the IPA or the donations they receive by supporting business over the worker.

    In the 45th Parliament 49% of Liberal MPs worked in State and Federal Politics before being elected. 40% of ALP MPs were from Trade Unions.

    Look at the stats below from the Parliament of Australia website. 25% were business executives and 14% were political consultants, advisers and lobbyists, 13% were lawyers.

    Only 16% were union administrators or officials.

    That means 9% more MPs are Business Executives than union affiliates.

    I think your claims of union influence in politics as a career path is wildly overstated.

    You are more likely to be a Business Executive.

    There are 86% of MPs who are NOT from a union background in parliament.

    Number
    Percentage*
    Business executives, managers, self-employed businesspeople, company directors, etc.
    57
    25%
    Political consultants, advisers and lobbyists
    32
    14%
    Barristers, solicitors, lawyers, legal officers, etc
    30
    13%
    Party and union administrators
    22
    10%
    Party and union officials
    14
    6%
    Members of state/territory legislatures
    13
    6%
    Public service/policy administrators
    10
    4%
    Other administrators/consultants
    9
    4%
    Farmers, graziers and other (full-time) primary producers
    8
    4%
    Researchers, research assistants, electorate and project officers
    8
    4%
    Lecturers, teachers, tutors
    5
    2%
    Medical practitioners, dentists, nurses
    4
    2%
    Local government officials
    3
    1%
    Other
    11
    5%
    Total
    226
    100%

  124. TB Queensland permalink
    October 24, 2018 5:22 pm

    There are unions that are too militant, and bullying is part of their operations model. This is unsatisfactory.

    I agree …

    Just like banks, large corporations, construction giants, retail super finds …

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Politics might be a tough game but they have now turned it into a hate filled, greed obsessed, house of self interest pillaged by donors and the rich.

    And they reckon footballers are rotten role models … aah!

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Oh FFS………….what hypocrisy. It was your lot that locked them up in the first place.

    Now your sounding like, Dick ya Wally … “my lot” as you choose to call the Labor government of the day copped some serious criticism from me over refugee detention … I have always been (along with KL, as I recall) an advocate of onshore detention for a number of reasons …I suggest you google search Blogocracy, Blogocrats and The Gutter Trash …

    Having said that, I might remind you that the LNP Train to Nowhere has now had three train drivers asleep at the wheel for over five years … “it’s Labors fault” don’t cut it no more, man … dis belong to da Preacher Man complete … make sure you read ALL of this article …

    https://www.msn.com/en-sg/news/australia/morrison-rejects-labor-offer-on-nauru-asylum-seekers-as-horse-trading/ar-BBOMhMV?li=AAgfYrC

  125. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 24, 2018 5:24 pm

    Shane, the fact that unions needed a political party in the wake of the economic conditions about 130 years ago is hardly a reason to continue the relationship.

    The groups that you refer to are donors to the Liberals and I’d be entirely satisfied if unions were the major donors to the ALP, just as they are to most major centre-left parties around the world.

    Unions dis some research when this was a significant discussion point, it showed that over 50% of union members voted for political parties other than the ALP. Only about 40% voted for the ALP.

    There was a view among some ALP people and union officials that this made many workers (who were non ALP voters) more resistant to joining unions, as they didn’t wish to contribute to a political party they didn’t support.

  126. TB Queensland permalink
    October 24, 2018 5:26 pm

    Correction …

    retail super fiends … just jokin’, “funds”

  127. TB Queensland permalink
    October 24, 2018 5:32 pm

    Unions dis some research when this was a significant discussion point, it showed that over 50% of union members voted for political parties other than the ALP. Only about 40% voted for the ALP.

    And I can assure you that there/are were a lot of managers who voted ALP … and quite a few business owners … I was one (in both categories) …

    And I would really like to see, not only the structure of the survey, the cohort involved and the time frame but the period that the survey covered …

    Lies, damn lies, surveys and statistics …

    Balance, balance, balance …

  128. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 24, 2018 5:34 pm

    Try using google TB.

  129. shaneinqld permalink
    October 24, 2018 5:35 pm

    Of course it is a reason to continue the relationship, it was created by the unions and as far as I am concerned unions are needed now more than ever as workers rights, wages, super and conditions are being eroded away while the top get all the cake.

    Irrespective of whether union members voted for the ALP is irrelevant, many business people vote for the LNP so your point is ?

    They are not Groups they are Unions with the word Association instead of Union being used. I am a member of an association, it lobbys for its members and their interests, that is a Union it is no different to when I was a union member when I was employed and not self employed.

    There might be a view among Some ALP people but how many is Some? is it 1% , 10% 30% or 80%. A few people is not a majority by any stretch of the imagination.

  130. shaneinqld permalink
    October 24, 2018 5:38 pm

    Actually my association costs are far more than my union membership ever was for far less in return benefits. I must have a look at the financials of the Association and see if they donate to a political party at all.

  131. TB Queensland permalink
    October 24, 2018 7:19 pm

    Try using google TB.

    What’s that?

  132. TB Queensland permalink
    October 24, 2018 7:49 pm

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/29/us-economy-workers-paycheck-robert-reich

    Do we really want this?

    Do we really want the social issues that the USA has?

    The USA is not The Dream it is an abortion of a place … (yes ToM I’ve been there) but you only have to study the USA to know its “philosophy” has caused not just problems for its own but for the GLOBAL community …

    Whatever happened to a “fair days work for a fair days pay” and the oldie but goodie “a fair go for – EVERYONE!

    Don’t go down this path!

    I prefer to thrive in a society NOT survive in an economy!

  133. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 24, 2018 9:10 pm

    The average price of a house in the USA is $280,000 compared to around $800,000 in Aust.

    So it isn’t all bad news

    ————-

    Shane – the point I was making had nothing to do with the cost of union membership – if you think it’s good value, that’s good.

  134. October 24, 2018 10:36 pm

    check this out…

    https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js

  135. TB Queensland permalink
    October 24, 2018 11:59 pm

    The average price of a house in the USA is $280,000 compared to around $800,000 in Aust. So it isn’t all bad news

    I’m guessing the $280 is US and the $800 is AUD …

    And its NOT good news if you need a home for your family … duh!

    Thanks for reminding us about the impact of negative gearing …

  136. Shane in QLD permalink
    October 25, 2018 6:35 am

    $280,000 times 1.42 exchange rate = $396,000

    So we now have $396,000 versus $800,000

    The minimum hourly rate in the USA is $9.84 converted at 1.42 = $13.97

    The minimum hourly rate in Australia is $18.29

    $396,000 divided by $13.97 = 28,346 hours to buy a home

    $800,000 divided by $18.29 = 43,739 hours to buy a home

    BUT

    The USA does NOT have Negative Gearing for Investors
    The USA DOES have Interest Deductability for your First Home
    Australia does NOT have Interest Deductability for your First Home
    Australia DOES have Negative Gearing for Investors

    In addition Australia has Medicare, you are required to have Private Health Insurance in the USA. The average for a family in the USA is $7,983 per year.

    So if a person is working a 40 hour week in the USA their wage is $29,057 per year but Health Insurance alone for a family is $7,983 leaving $21,047. That means they only have $10.11 per hour to purchase a home.

    $396,000 divided by $10.11 = 39,169

    So the difference is only 4,570 hours or $46,202 for the whole purchase of a property.

    Of course there are many variables but a difference of $46,202 over a 30 year period ( the basis on which home loans are calculated) results in $1,540 per annum. Or $4.22 per day. Not even a cup of coffee

    I have not included interest rate variables
    The average rate in the USA is 4.38% with rates from 3.50% to 7.39%.
    Converted this is 6.21% with rates from 4.97% to 10.49%
    The average rate in Australia is 5.03% with rates from 3.59% to 5.03% ( None of my clients are on anything like 5.03%)
    So rates in the USA are higher once converted as most loans getting approved these days are between 3.69% and 4.12%.
    The rates would make the US position worse.

    So all in all probably even Steven or the US marginally worse.

    Removing Negative Gearing from our market would greatly improve housing affordability in this country and these figures show that.

  137. shaneinqld permalink
    October 25, 2018 7:01 am

    How we are treating Saudi Arabia over the death of a journalist shows once again that Oil is more important than life. Economy over Humanity. Greed over Good. Money over Morals.

  138. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 25, 2018 8:49 am

    I have always been (along with KL, as I recall) an advocate of onshore detention for a number of reasons …I suggest you google search Blogocracy, Blogocrats and The Gutter Trash …

    What are you trying to say? Most of the 50,000 people the ALP and you locked up were housed onshore. You think the 50,000 were put on Nauru? Rudd/Gillard just kept building more and more detention centers to house all these people. Most detention centers were onshore.

    Apparently there are still 20,000 in onshore community detention in eternal limbo costing us $1B/year

  139. Tom R permalink
    October 25, 2018 8:54 am

    check this out…

    That is …………… unsettling

    Brings this into focus

    But this is my fav

  140. Tom R permalink
    October 25, 2018 9:09 am

    Shane, the fact that unions needed a political party in the wake of the economic conditions about 130 years ago is hardly a reason to continue the relationship.

    I’d advice you to look out of your ivory tower, and see the marches on the streets over the last few days

    Wealth inequality is heading back to those days, if it’s not already there by now.

  141. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 25, 2018 9:12 am

    FMD, Shane & TB, do you think I didn’t convert both to Australian currency?

    You both make so many assumptions that are wrong – this is such an easy example to demonstrate how you both make so many incorrect assumptions.

  142. Walrus permalink
    October 25, 2018 9:12 am

    “Thanks for reminding us about the impact of negative gearing …”

    Yes it keeps rents lower as the deductability enhances the asset’s yield. And that’s a good thing unless you want a total collapse in housing prices and massive increase in loan defaults due to negative equity.

    But you dont give a flying fuck anyway

    You actually have no idea of the relationship between asset prices and their yields do you.

    Just keep sprouting financial crap

  143. Tom R permalink
    October 25, 2018 9:44 am

    “Yes it keeps rents lower”

    yea, right. History doesn’t agree

    https://theconversation.com/three-charts-on-poorer-australians-bearing-the-brunt-of-rising-housing-costs-87003

    It also means someone with assets can out bid a low income earner from buying a home, and then charging them rent that could have gone towards a mortgage

  144. Walrus permalink
    October 25, 2018 10:02 am

    LOL

    A report that’s a year old………….how funny

    Next I’ll stump up a report on the ASX that’s a year old and make stock recommendations on that

  145. Tom R permalink
    October 25, 2018 10:39 am

    A report that’s a year old

    How long has negative gearing been in again?

    And what has this Government done to change anything in the last year?

  146. Walrus permalink
    October 25, 2018 10:50 am

    The governments needs to do nothing. The Market is sorting it out with the current fall in prices.

    Simple fact is that anywhere else in the World rents are much higher because there is no NG to compensate asset owners.

    It’s called Asset Pricing dependent upon Yield.

    Perhaps you should read about it LOL

  147. Tom R permalink
    October 25, 2018 10:53 am

    Simple fact is that anywhere else in the World rents are much higher because there is no NG to compensate asset owners.
    ……….
    Perhaps you should read about it LOL

    https://www.businessinsider.com/most-expensive-cities-around-the-world-to-rent-a-2-bedroom-apartment-2017-5/?r=AU&IR=T/#2-san-francisco-united-states-3664-23

  148. TB Queensland permalink
    October 25, 2018 11:20 am

    You actually have no idea of the relationship between asset prices and their yields do you.

    I do actually (being retired an’ all – and owing nothing to no-one) …

    but the point I make is that a house should first be a home for Australian families not an asset for local and overseas investors … who should pay taxes on income from an investment asset … not be compensated for capital investment by the very people who pay taxes … bizarre …

    You only see $$$$$$ … I see 😦 😦 😦 😦 😦

  149. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 25, 2018 11:27 am

    This looks like it has been airbrushed

    https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/67be59b9c4bfafa64fb32023c592aa5a

  150. Tom R permalink
    October 25, 2018 11:28 am

    The airbrush painting?

  151. Shane in QLD permalink
    October 25, 2018 11:42 am

    ToM

    Are you looking through a foggy lens ?

  152. shaneinqld permalink
    October 25, 2018 11:57 am

    ToM

    What assumptions did I make ? I just provided you with conversions it never crossed my mind whether you did your own conversions or not. I did the exercise for myself and posted it.

  153. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 25, 2018 12:12 pm

    Shane you posted the conversion – $280,000 times 1.42 exchange rate = $396,000

    The average price is about US$200,000 , and I had already made the calculation to A$280,000

  154. Tom R permalink
    October 25, 2018 12:12 pm

    Are you looking through a foggy lens ?

    They’re called his eyes. It happens to everyone after a certain age 😉

  155. Walrus permalink
    October 25, 2018 12:23 pm

    You show me yours and I’ll show you mine LOL

    https://www.weetas.com/article/rent-income-ratio-17-major-cities/

  156. Walrus permalink
    October 25, 2018 12:26 pm

    Per their findings, the average cost of a two-bedroom in New York is around $3,789. This means that New Yorkers would need to earn a minimum of $162,386 in order to spend no more than 28 percent of their annual income on rent.

    https://ny.curbed.com/2018/7/30/17630428/nyc-rent-prices-two-bedroom-apartments-annual-income-needed

    So how many in Oz on $160K ?

  157. Walrus permalink
    October 25, 2018 12:31 pm

    A new IFS report found the rent-to-income ratio in Britain excluding London has fallen by 3% — from 31% to 28% — in the last twenty years, but climbed by 3% — from 37% to 40% — in London over the same period.

    https://www.businessinsider.com.au/generation-rent-londoners-spend-40-of-income-on-rent-says-ifs-2017-10?r=UK&IR=T

  158. Tom R permalink
    October 25, 2018 12:40 pm

    Simple fact is that anywhere else in the World rents are much higher because there is no NG to compensate asset owners.

    Our big cities are up there with the best. And many are cheaper.

    Or the fact that we came of some of the most affordable living to one of the highest

    Keep showing me things ………….. that simply prove your statement wrong

  159. shaneinqld permalink
    October 25, 2018 12:40 pm

    ToM

    My apologies, from your comment there was no mention of you having converted the price you simply state in the USA the average house price is $280,000.

    I still believe that our house prices would be much more in line with the USA if Negative Gearing was abolished and instead Interest Deductability extended to First Home Buyers instead. But that will cause outrage from those who are trying to lower their tax on income that has nothing to do with their property investment. With Australia and New Zealand being the only countries in the word who have Negative Gearing in our format and our prices are in both countries are the most expensive in the world the link is glaringly obvious.

  160. shaneinqld permalink
    October 25, 2018 12:45 pm

    The other thing that amazes me is that the developers and estate agents state we need more homes to be built as there is a shortage and that is why prices are high, yet clearance rates have plunged and there is a massive glut of units and now prices are falling.

    So in the spate of less than 24 months do we now have a glut of properties and not a shortage?

    Smoke and mirrors.

  161. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 25, 2018 1:25 pm

    No worries Shane

  162. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 25, 2018 2:30 pm

    House prices are going up because interest rates plummeted to record lows. If interest rates were at more normal levels investors would leave the home market and put their money in term deposits

  163. TB Queensland permalink
    October 25, 2018 7:34 pm

    I realised what the montage at the top of this post reminded me of …

    https://i2.wp.com/www.tor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Outbreak-Monkey.jpg?fit=475%2C+9999&crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C296px&ssl=1&w=640

  164. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 25, 2018 8:52 pm

    I see that Dan Andrews promised “full co-operation” into the police investigation of the misuse of public funds by the ALP Red Shirts

    Now the MPs involved are refusing to be interviewed by police – that’s a new definition of “full co-operation” – ALP style

  165. TB Queensland permalink
    October 26, 2018 12:06 am

    Or Michelia The Mouth Cash … I also recall The Ashby Affair – LNP style (I’ve a few more I can call on too) …

    Balance, balance, balance …

  166. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 26, 2018 1:38 pm

    So TB, do you approve of the actions of the 22 ALP MPs – 6 of them are ministers?

  167. TB Queensland permalink
    October 26, 2018 1:51 pm

    No, I don’t approve … (nor did I say that) … I’ve always believed in the rule of law … with these caveats … I don’t live in Mexico Victoria (thank christ) … I don’t know the backstory at all … and I am not familiar with the state’s politics …

  168. TB Queensland permalink
    October 26, 2018 1:52 pm

    And I’ve never heard of the ALP Red Shirts? Is that like the NLP Blue Shirts?

  169. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 26, 2018 2:53 pm

    The Red Shirt scandal involved the ALP using public funds (intended for electoral work) for political campaigning.

    22 MPs , 6 ministers.

    Cooperation with police promised, but reneged

    https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/wearing-red-shirts-was-fundamental-sin-labor-minister-says-20180725-p4ztmq.html

  170. TB Queensland permalink
    October 26, 2018 5:50 pm

    Fine … let ’em get on with it … anyone charged?

  171. TB Queensland permalink
    October 26, 2018 5:54 pm

    The Ombudsman’s report said that no Labor MPs had deliberately broken the rules.

    So why are the police (State or Federal?) involved …

  172. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 26, 2018 8:50 pm

    I think the police might have some other evidence.

    Such as an informion by a former red shirt

  173. TB Queensland permalink
    October 26, 2018 11:31 pm

    Such as an informion by a former red shirt

    Wot?

  174. TB Queensland permalink
    October 27, 2018 9:26 am

    LOL!

    You know the LNP Machine is grinding to a halt when Rupert gets Joe Hildebrand to write a story (top billing @ news.com.au!) telling the Labor Party to sort itself out and get rid of Bill Shorten … and make Anthony Albanese their new leader …

    https://www.news.com.au/national/politics/joe-hildebrand-the-only-man-who-can-save-australias-soul/news-story/ec84d6e9897d2cb73e50f0760f2af039

    Hilarious …

  175. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 27, 2018 12:57 pm

    I have always been (along with KL, as I recall) an advocate of onshore detention for a number of reasons …I suggest you google search Blogocracy, Blogocrats and The Gutter Trash …

    TB

    You did not answer my question. What are you trying to say?

    This was a problem John Howard had solved. Through trial and error and some harsh policies he worked out how to stop the boats. SEnding people off-shore showed the people smugglers there was no point in putting people on boats. Once the boats stopped we then went back to taking our refugees from UNHCR camps.

    Then Rudd was elected by you and YOU restarted the problem. There should be double and triple the responsibility and blame for people who restarted a problem that other people had solved

  176. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 28, 2018 8:50 pm

    Europe may go to permanent daylight saving…

    Heavens, the curtains will fade even more quickly! Won’t they TB?

    https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-28/daylight-saving-ends-in-europe-possibly-for-the-last-time/10438774

  177. TB Queensland permalink
    October 28, 2018 9:14 pm

    Heavens, the curtains will fade even more quickly! Won’t they TB?

    Think you’ll find that was a dopey LNP pollie in JBP’s cabinet that said that …

    I’ve still to hear one logical benefit for fkn around with an hour … each year … twice … “everybody else does it” is not a viable nor logical reason …

  178. Shane in QLD permalink
    October 29, 2018 2:46 pm

    TB

    I support Daylight Saving as it allows parents who travel long distances to work each day to actually do something outside while there is still daylight.

    IT is quite amusing that the RWNJ of the LNP ( Tony Abbott and Co) are now begging Australians not to throw them out and for the LNP factions to come together and support the current government. My how the tables have turned now that a lot of them look like losing their seats, after causing all the instability and hatred and policy backflips, and terrible community policies and religious dogma. They deserve everything they get and even more. Maybe the Moderates, with truly Liberal Values, will regain control of the LNP after the next election.

  179. TB Queensland permalink
    October 29, 2018 5:17 pm

    shane, the pendulum shifting is a good thing … trouble is it shifts to far right and then too far left!

    And all most of us want is a balance in the middle!

    As for daylight saving – I grew up with it in England (Germany was the first I see) but in the UK its daylight till around 22:00 (sunrise 04:30) with Summertime Saving … and in winter its bloody dark by 16:30 …

    We already have three time zones … and while your argument may stack up with commuters – its a big issue in the regional areas …

    In Brissy today sunrise was 05:00 and sunset is 18:03

    Winter (June 1) next year sunrise 06:30 and sunset 17:01

    “Do something outside”? Optimistic … but I really doubt it makes all that much difference – (I still get up early in the morning to “do stuff”).

    My understanding is that business pushes for it every year (ie line up all the Eastern States) … BTW all the Eastern States are lined up until Daylight Saving??? They hate the idea out west …

    I had clients and travelled all over Australia and the world and seemed to cope …

  180. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 29, 2018 6:54 pm

    after causing all the instability and hatred and policy backflips, and terrible community policies and religious dogma. They deserve everything they get and even more.

    I thought you were talking about the Rudd/Gillard govt except you forgot to add they trashed the budget, our borders, our low unemployment. Then it dawned on me you were talking about the current Coalition govt

  181. TB Queensland permalink
    October 29, 2018 7:13 pm

    Then it dawned on me you were talking about the current Coalition govt

    Shane, another first … just a glimmer of intelligence … we may have a psychological breakthrough on a simple blog out in the backwaters of the interwebby … keep up the good work!

  182. October 29, 2018 11:32 pm

    I am enjoying some sport, among the winged monkeys, who have unique skills for disavowing all responsibility of the rightwingers whom have either sent parcel bombs or murdered people, in the last few days; even though they labelled themselves as rightwingerz…

    Honestly…

    you can’t argue, nor change the minds of, via reason, blockheaded cunts…

    #sad (and I don’t even twitter)

  183. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 29, 2018 11:38 pm

    you can’t argue, nor change the minds of, via reason, blockheaded cunts…

    How long did it take for you to work that out? I have always said people believe what they want to believe and facts are irrelevant

  184. October 30, 2018 12:30 am

    You got me there, kneel..

    however, I am confident that my logic & reason is a conquering opponent for yours, in balance

  185. Tom R permalink
    October 30, 2018 8:54 am

    however, I am confident that my logic & reason is a conquering opponent for yours, in balance

    Big call there tdfcptm

  186. Tom R permalink
    October 30, 2018 8:54 am

    So, the libs run down the public service until it can’t function, then outsource it, cos … cheaper?

    I call bullshit

  187. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 30, 2018 9:37 am

    TomR

    I am sure a lot of the advice the govt gets is the same for both parties. I guess the Libs are more likely to follow advice to use private contractors. Also I would like to find out what labor did in govt.

  188. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 30, 2018 9:56 am

    OooI think making public services contestable is important for efficiency. Otherwise the public service is an unresponsive monopoly.

  189. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 30, 2018 9:57 am

    I think… I don’t know where those ooos came from!

  190. TB Queensland permalink
    October 30, 2018 4:40 pm

    OooI think making public services contestable is important for efficiency.

    Worked for employment assistance, electricity/power generation, Murray/Darling, education, water supply, guarding military bases (ADF members are more than capable of defending their own) and god knows what else … what it does is add another level of COST to taxpayers and in the case of home owners rate increases … taxpayers’ tax should be invested in taxpayer services NOT spent on private businesses … and government assets should go to a plebiscite before being sold off!

    Privatisation generally leads to profiteering, corruption and inflated prices … Kapitalism has become a disease … look at sport!

    The Racing Industry is whinging because Queensland Govt isn’t giving them monies from the Racing Tax … its a fkn tax not a handout … it’s an industry FFS!

    On the other hand the Queensland Govt. wants to negotiate the Indie Car Race back to the Gold Coast – negotiate? How? – subsidise … its an industry FFS!

    Sports men and women all over the world cheat to make money …

    Tax money should be spent on services and assets to assist the nation to develop … not line the pockets of entrepreneurs – like Rudd’s Mrs …

  191. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 30, 2018 7:31 pm

    TB, you ignore the fact that government and private monopolies are inefficient and operate to the detriment of consumers.

  192. TB Queensland permalink
    October 30, 2018 7:55 pm

    … and operate to the detriment of consumers.

    1. Taxpayers are not consumers of their own money … for service … they’ve already paid …

    2. Privatisation of government services creates cartels!

    3. You ignore the (and avoid) my comments above power, water etc. … do you really believe that power prices have not risen because of privatisation … just look at the Health Industry … people pay premiums but STILL have to pay for gap/service … duh!

  193. TB Queensland permalink
    October 30, 2018 8:05 pm

    And even I think this is stupid –

    Only because he’ll lose the next election!

    So vote against it!

    I really am sick of the Christian Campaign! Really!

    I always believed I lived in a secular society … but the blight of missionaries is now becoming overwhelming … and I am not alone … expect a backlash against your party in every state and the next Federal election … and deservedly so …

    Brainwash your own children not mine … and to tell secular people they do not have values is not only insulting but demonstrably hypocritically incorrect!! As demonstrated by the article you linked …

    … religion has caused more harm to the human race than any other factor …

    Atheists and agnostics do not push logic the way religion of all creeds is missioned … secularists do not “desire” believers … nor do we recruit children and frighten people …

    The Truth really is Here … Now … on this Planet …

  194. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 30, 2018 8:37 pm

    I think you’re confusing contestability with privatisation.

    Reducing the monopoly of the pubic servants in providing the service isn’t the same model as an asset sale.

    For example, parts of the public transport system are put out to tender – service only. The government still owns the assets – all the trains, trams and the lines. There us absolutely no one suggesting that all that return to some monolithic public sector employer. The services are contested and reliability is much higher than when the public service employed 100,000 chain draggers.

    Privatisation – sale of the assets- is entirely different, and the benefits aren’t clear in my opinion . Although no one is suggesting that the government nationalise Qantas

  195. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 30, 2018 8:59 pm

    do you really believe that power prices have not risen because of privatisation

    I don’t. Solar rebates, subsidies for renewables etc have distorted the market. The solar rebate is added to our electricity bill. SA got rid of coal and replaced it with renewables and has the highest electricity prices in Australia

    I am also old enough to remember how slow Telecom was to respond. And then Optus enters the market and Telecoms customer service improves.

    And the current NBN is a govt monopoly. Private enterprise would build it quicker and cheaper

  196. TB Queensland permalink
    October 30, 2018 11:59 pm

    … when the public service employed 100,000 chain draggers.

    What an insult!

  197. Tom R permalink
    October 31, 2018 8:59 am

    Reducing the monopoly of the pubic servants in providing the service isn’t the same model as an asset sale.

    I think you meant “providing the PUBLIC service”

  198. Tom R permalink
    October 31, 2018 9:01 am

    Who’s dumber, our pollies, or our media?

  199. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 31, 2018 9:16 am

    On this occasion, I have to concede that you’re right Tom R!
    ————————
    TB, rather than whinging about businesses that make a profit, and robber barons etc, what is your suggestion for ensuring the public sector is responsive and efficient. Obviously you don’t see a role for contestability

  200. Tom R permalink
    October 31, 2018 9:31 am

    On this occasion, I have to concede that you’re right Tom R!

    Just for the sake of prosperity 😉

    hmm, outsourcing, what a win

    Charity bosses drove fleet of luxury cars, court told

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/charity-bosses-drove-fleet-of-luxury-cars-court-told-20181029-p50cq2.html

  201. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 31, 2018 10:32 am

    A Rav 4 and a 9 year old jag are luxury cars?? The jag is about the same price as a Ford.

    It clearly wasn’t the cars that caused the problem.

  202. Tom R permalink
    October 31, 2018 10:35 am

    Point well and truly missed

    Well done yomm 😉

  203. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 31, 2018 10:55 am

    What point? That it appears to be a grubby organisation?

    Heavens! I’ve never heard of public servants misappropriating funds or engaging in dubious behaviour !!

    ***sarcasm alert***

  204. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 31, 2018 11:06 am

    Yep, dishonesty never happens when public servant are employed directly!

    https://www.governmentnews.com.au/significant-corruption-revealed-australian-public-service/

  205. TB Queensland permalink
    October 31, 2018 11:09 am

    Point well and truly missed

    You sound surprised, TR?

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    what is your suggestion for ensuring the public sector is responsive and efficient

    Government support and more funding for STAFF!

    Shimples …

    … you obviously have no idea how Centrelink once operated … or its original “branches” …

    BTW … Centrelink have the best Financial Advisers I’ve come across including my industry super fund …

    The FIS is(was?) professional, unbiased, open with information, knowledgeable and FREE to ANY Australian citizen – any age any demographic … even you … 🙂

    Centrelink also provides a free legal service … (as above)

    One of Centrelink’s foundation services the CES also provided the best employment services available in Australia … until it was privatised … HR recruitment has now become a farcical cash trough for irrelevant “training” and mountains of hidden “administration” fees – a disaster …

    Privatisation of training colleges saw a surge in rip-off activity against students and government funding …

    What you don’t understand is the difference between service centres and profit centres …

    And it sounds like you have obviously never needed the services of Centrelink (or their well staffed and efficiently effective forerunners) personally …

    Its easy to let any business stagnate … and that’s what neoliberals do with many government entities … underfund/under staff, wait for the complaints, conclude that its all about inefficiency (and it is – albeit contrived) and push for privatisation.

    Shall we discuss the good works of the CSIRO? Until approximately six years ago?

    This Morrison Government is no better than the last two LNP rabbles … only now the kindy teachers are the same age as the kids!

  206. TB Queensland permalink
    October 31, 2018 11:11 am

    Yep, dishonesty never happens when public servant are employed directly!

    And privatisation is the answer … ?

  207. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 31, 2018 11:19 am

    That’s right TB, organisations stagnate unless they have a reason to change. Monopolies in particular have few reasons to change because there is no competitive pressure that causes innovation.

    If you just suggest that the service is great because… they’re public servants, really that doesn’t make much sense.

    Organisations change through necessity, and if the status quo is comfortable, change is slow

  208. Tom R permalink
    October 31, 2018 11:58 am

    Yep, dishonesty never happens when public servant are employed directly!

    Of course not. But 5% is a low number, and even lower of actual cases found.

    But this is an entire organisation we are talking about.

    organisations stagnate unless they have a reason to change.

    organisations rip off tax payers when they can too 😉

  209. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 31, 2018 12:08 pm

    5% is high. There are about 2,000,000 public servants.

    You think having 100,000 corrupt ones is low?

  210. Tom R permalink
    October 31, 2018 1:14 pm

    You think having 100,000 corrupt ones is low?

    I think you meant to say “100,000 ALLEGED corrupt”

    5 percent of APS survey respondents said they had witnessed another employee engaging in behaviour they considered to be corrupt.

    So, of those who ‘responded’, 5% ‘thought’ they ‘may’ have seen something dodgy

    But the biggest difference is, with the APS, it is individuals who are ripping off/attempting to rip off and organisation, whereas, with the outsourcing, it is an organisation ripping off individuals, and being funded by the taxpayer to do it.

  211. TB Queensland permalink
    October 31, 2018 1:21 pm

    But the biggest difference is, with the APS, it is individuals who are ripping off/attempting to rip off and organisation, whereas, with the outsourcing, it is an organisation ripping off individuals, and being funded by the taxpayer to do it.

    Oddly enough no-one has suggested here that the AFP be privatised …

  212. Tom R permalink
    October 31, 2018 1:42 pm

    Oddly enough no-one has suggested here that the AFP be privatised

    Give ’em time, give ’em time

  213. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 31, 2018 2:52 pm

    So… what’s the reason for the public servants to move from the comfortable status quo if there is no downside to remaining with the status quo?

  214. Tom R permalink
    October 31, 2018 3:04 pm

    move from the comfortable status quo

    Who says there is currently a “comfortable status quo “?

  215. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 31, 2018 4:52 pm

    Change occurs because the change is either better or less risky than the status quo. If there is no reason to change – the status quo continues.

    What is the strategy for change for public servants? Ask them to do more work? Tell them they’re going really well, and we will spend even more taxpayer funds on them?

  216. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 31, 2018 4:59 pm

    Govt is a necessary evil but should be as small as possible. It used to be that PS’s got lower wages in exchange for job security. Now that has gone. They are getting excellent pay plus 15.4% Super. A govt worker can always justify a new coffee machine or whatever because he gets the money from the taxpayer

    I have noticed the more dishonest people become the more people push for more govt

  217. TB Queensland permalink
    October 31, 2018 5:42 pm

    If there is no reason to change – the status quo continues.

    So are you advocating change for changes sake?

    Or just to play the Chaos Theory? (A “management game” by amateurs I’ve been embroiled in more than once – with awful consequences on at least one occasion!)

    Australia’s financial institutions need to change because they were robbing people blind, left, right and centre and certainly not providing a service… so it needs a shake up … and jail for more than one director and senior manager …

    If a government department fails consistently to provide a service (initiated by, say, an increase in complaints) then it too would need to be investigated (it may not be the department itself but government policy or protocols) and change initiated if warranted …

    If a government departmental change is needed and the only answer is to terminate the employment of 800 (skilled and knowledgeable) people and privatise their function(s) …

    … then surely the opposite should apply to financial institutions … should they be nationalised?

    Should the electricity industry be nationalised … (again)?

    Telecommunications?

    Federal Parliament is a management and productivity disaster … we should privatise it!

    And the obvious answer to your statement is “if it ain’t broke” don’t fix it … a simple “management by exception” approach should suffice … along with a Federal ICAC … and regular audits – just like the banks and other financial institutions …

    And if a departmental function needs funding – fund it … you mentioned 2,000,000 PS above … many with families, a precious career and dedicated to serving the public … they also vote … and pay taxes … government services are just that not profit centres for shareholders and investors …

  218. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 31, 2018 6:00 pm

    TB, every organisation, including the public service, is capable of improvement , and your “look over there” is just avoiding the point, which is your usual tactic.

  219. Neil of Sydney permalink
    October 31, 2018 6:56 pm

    And if a departmental function needs funding – fund it … you mentioned 2,000,000 PS above … many with families, a precious career and dedicated to serving the public … they also vote … and pay taxes

    Only a Labor party voter would say that. The money for a PS salary comes from the taxpayer or by borrowing from overseas. People working for the govt really do not pay taxes. Money for govt wages all comes from private enterprise

    Nobody in govt should earn more than the PM. And they definitely should not be getting 15.4% Super. It should be 9% like anybody else.

    Those 2,000,000 PS’s would all vote Labor because they want high paying jobs with job security. people vote Labor because they only care about themselves

  220. TB Queensland permalink
    October 31, 2018 7:01 pm

    … and your “look over there” is just avoiding the point, which is your usual tactic

    Its not a “look over there” it an alternative point of view to neoliberal manipulation … I’ve always been a Devil’s Advocate … but not always invited (or re-invited) to tables stacked with elites … directors and bankers etc … what do you do again?

    If I don’t agree AND (as you requested) offer an alternative that doesn’t support your argument you get all sanctimonious … I know you think the world is a chess board and I’m just a pawn … but unfortunately as I’m sure you know a pawn can take a Queen and destroy a King … wonderful game chess purchased a set in Greece, ancient Greek armies in pewter … learned to play when I was 11 sailing across the desert – at least that’s what it looked like on a 20,000 ton ship in the Suez Canal … oops, now that’s a “look over there” …

    You’ll find a cynical outlook on what is “right” for everyone changes your perspective somewhat …

    Ever survived on ADF ration packs (actually the remains I brought home and stored under our bed) The Minister and I did, for two weeks and I was working full time … our baby daughter slept in a drawer in our bedroom …

    Not look over there ToM … life experience … loaded with cynicism and a belief that everyone deserves a Fair Go!

  221. TB Queensland permalink
    October 31, 2018 7:03 pm

    People working for the govt really do not pay taxes.

    Bullshit

    Nobody in govt should earn more than the PM. And they definitely should not be getting 15.4% Super. It should be 9% like anybody else.

    Agree

    Those 2,000,000 PS’s would all vote Labor because they want high paying jobs with job security.

    BS

    people vote Labor because they only care about themselves

    Hilarious!

  222. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 31, 2018 7:35 pm

    Just suggest the motivation of of public servants to accept change if the change is outside their comfort zone, but it is in the public interest

    You clearly don’t accept the contestability process, so what is the process you suggest?

  223. TB Queensland permalink
    October 31, 2018 8:33 pm

    FFS! Are you really a robot!

    Change is always outside the comfort zone of ALL human beings – obviously you included …

    ToM, I spent half career (the latter) as a change agent!

    Not all change is good nor successful and greed is the biggest disease of all in business …

    In government departments its survival from folk like you!

    Contestability process – I’m retired but still professional, ToM, one day you’ll learn it never leaves you! … LOL! 🙂

  224. TB Queensland permalink
    October 31, 2018 8:39 pm

    For those who are not familiar with what ToM is talking about …

    https://www.finance.gov.au/resource-management/governance/contestability/overview/

    Through the Efficiency through Contestability Programme, the Australian Government is assessing its functions to determine if performance can be improved through alternative structures, processes or provider arrangements. Contestability encourages Commonwealth entities to adopt a more commercial mindset and seek ways of improving the performance of existing or proposed government functions.

    This “statement” has one fundamental flaw … (BTW this is a 2015 “proposal”) … an also defeats Tom’s initial precept of “faulty departments should be privatised” …

  225. TB Queensland permalink
    October 31, 2018 8:39 pm

    Correction

    This “statement” has one fundamental flaw … (BTW this is a 2015 “proposal”) … an also defeats Tom’s initial precept of “faulty departments should be privatised” …

  226. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    October 31, 2018 9:53 pm

    You remain unwilling iur unable to outline an approach that causes change, in the public interest.

    You’re just defaulting to slogans TB.

  227. Walrus permalink
    October 31, 2018 10:01 pm

    Tom R PERMALINK
    October 31, 2018 1:42 pm

    Oddly enough no-one has suggested here that the AFP be privatised
    Give ’em time, give ’em time

    Mmmmmmmmmmmmm……🤗

  228. Enemy`Of`The`People`Teabag permalink
    November 1, 2018 12:21 am

    Still standing on top of ya mole hill jerkingOff about daOnions despite the evidence huh.

  229. Tom R permalink
    November 1, 2018 8:54 am

    What is the strategy for change for public servants?

    Apart from what TB already highlighted, that would depend on the department, wouldn’t it? I know under Labor the BOM was always improving and moving into the latest technologies. And the Tax department were having huge successes chasing high level company tax avoidence.

    That was of course before hockey and abbott put them both to rest.

    Technology itself is often the biggest driver of change.

    But to simply claim that privatising something drives “positive” change (which you seem to implying) is just managerese bullshit that is not supported by the real world experience.

    All forms of privatisation, from electricity, to prisons, to centerlink, has seen either a rapid decline in services, a big increase in cost, or both

    You’re just defaulting to slogans TB.

    Says “Privatisation brings Positive Change” yomm lol

    Mmmmmmmmmmmmm……

    Wally, our local representative for Serco 😉

  230. TB Queensland permalink
    November 1, 2018 10:04 am

    Wot TR said … chuckle …

  231. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 1, 2018 10:07 am

    But to simply claim that privatising something drives “positive” change

    Privatisation and contestability aren’t the same thing – you and TB get the 2 confused.

    Contestability is an important option to acceptance of a public monopoly.

    Privatisation is the asset sale – and there are mixed examples of that – I don’t see anyone calling for the nationalisation of Qantas – for example.

  232. Tom R permalink
    November 1, 2018 10:16 am

    “Privatisation and contestability aren’t the same thing”

    Yet you are the one who used the term to defend the privatisation of PS jobs.

    Even after TB highlighted that the PS already does it’s own “contestability” WITHOUT the need to privatise jobs.

  233. TB Queensland permalink
    November 1, 2018 10:33 am

    And the real revolution evolves!

    https://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/offgrid-solar-classroom-launched-in-qld/news-story/3620917599a994356eebd20c037c08d8

    QUEENSLANDER!

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    TR

    Even after TB highlighted I notice that a certain amount of ignoring other possibilities is a pre requisite for real change – I’ve seen it in many board and conference rooms across Australia (and the USA) and across a variety of industries …

    I guess there’s still a bit of the auto tradie in me – if it ain’t broke don’t fix it … regular service will maintain optimum function …

  234. TB Queensland permalink
    November 1, 2018 10:34 am

    Correction

    “real change” *

    *sarc alert

  235. Tom R permalink
    November 1, 2018 11:07 am

    if it ain’t broke don’t fix it …

    This mobs motto seems to be, if it ain’t broke, break it!

  236. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 1, 2018 11:58 am

    “If it ain’t broke don’t fix it” causes complacency. Organisations stop looking for opportunity to improve.

    And public (and private) sector inefficiency is often caused by complacent leadership. So TB if your attitude is shared by public service leadership – nothing happens, other than subordinates reflecting that complacent attitude. Great!

  237. Tom R permalink
    November 1, 2018 12:24 pm

    Complacent leadership outsources their complacency

  238. November 1, 2018 12:50 pm

    https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js

  239. Tom R permalink
    November 1, 2018 12:56 pm

    It’s what you get when you outsource reb 😉

  240. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 1, 2018 1:02 pm

    It was interesting to see the clip of Steven Fry (on the ABC) saying (along the lines of…) – “Brexit, Trump, anti immigration isn’t a problem of the right, it’s the failure of the left”

  241. Tom R permalink
    November 1, 2018 1:06 pm

  242. TB Queensland permalink
    November 1, 2018 2:41 pm

    So TB if your attitude is shared by public service leadership – nothing happens, other than subordinates reflecting that complacent attitude. Great!

    Try reading my comments and comprehending what I wrote (above) … as an RTO I was audited every five years AND every time I added or changed a qualification …

    You comment as if PS managers are all complete wankers and staff are just a bunch of zombies … far from the truth … some are wankers and some are zombies … free enterprise is no different …

    And for your info my role in the last 25 years (at least) of my career was as a change agent as a line manager, staff manager or consultant for others … the only thing that never changes is change itself …

    Carte blanche privatisation for everything is not the answer … it certainly hasn’t worked so far .. Anna bLie lost government over it.

    Putting government departments, delivering pre-paid service at a high standard, out for sale to amateur entrepreneurs chasing a quick buck by offering watered down, token products with jobs for mates is not the answer …

    Improving management, supervision and training and development opportunities for any underperforming organisation is always the better option – for the reasons I stated yesterday …

    And we haven’t even discussed privacy and data collection by private organisations and access to government databases!

  243. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 1, 2018 3:10 pm

  244. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 1, 2018 3:27 pm

    Really TB, training and development is the starting point, but some people and organisations aren’t sufficiently interested in that process.

    When change doesn’t happen or is actively resisted, what do you do?

    And we could all exchange impressive CVs and experience, no doubt

  245. Tom R permalink
    November 1, 2018 4:11 pm

    And we could all exchange impressive CVs and experience, no doubt

    I couldn’t 😦

  246. TB Queensland permalink
    November 1, 2018 4:49 pm

    When change doesn’t happen or is actively resisted, what do you do?

    Happy to provide change agent training and assessment … for a small fee … 🙂

    I certainly wouldn’t close a government department down and privatise it?

  247. TB Queensland permalink
    November 1, 2018 7:22 pm

    ToM … here’s a story you’ll like* … speaking of “monopolies” … AND power from income …

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/nov/01/tim-berners-lee-says-says-tech-giants-may-have-to-be-broken-up

  248. TB Queensland permalink
    November 1, 2018 7:27 pm

    There is no understanding Donald Trump without understanding his rallies.

    Oh what a telling sentence …

    http://jameshistory12.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/5/8/13585404/433393597.jpg?344

    History repeats … and the cycle begins …

  249. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 1, 2018 9:20 pm

    Yes TB. The banking and finance industries don’t need hard edged reform, they just need some retraining and an effective change agent

    That would work

  250. TB Queensland permalink
    November 1, 2018 10:40 pm

    Maybe they need privatising … oh, wait … 🙂 😉 🙂

    Seriously, they need to be in jail … like all thieves and robbers …

  251. Tom R permalink
    November 2, 2018 8:41 am

    The banking and finance industries don’t need hard edged reform

    Perhaps we’ll start small, you know, like trying to get them not to break the laws already in place 😉

  252. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 2, 2018 9:06 am

    But according to TB, all you need for cultural change is training and a change agent.

  253. Tom R permalink
    November 2, 2018 9:16 am

    yor like our own version of bolt at times yomm

    Or, more accurately, there are some times that yor not like our version of bolt. This isn’t one of them 😉

  254. Tom R permalink
    November 2, 2018 9:35 am

    The abc is beyond compromised, they are a puppet for the libs

    An ABC journalist has been suspended and is the subject of a two-month investigation following a direct complaint by Malcolm Turnbull’s son to former chairman Justin Milne.

    https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/abc-reporter-suspended-for-two-months-after-complaint-by-alex-turnbull-to-chairman-20181101-p50de4.html

  255. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 2, 2018 10:33 am

    Well… excuse me for suggesting that change can be strongly resisted, even when it is in the public interest.

  256. Tom R permalink
    November 2, 2018 10:52 am

    Change can be good
    Change can be bad
    Current Practices can be good
    Current Practices can be bad

  257. TB Queensland permalink
    November 2, 2018 12:10 pm

    But according to TB, all you need for cultural change is training and a change agent

    You really do have a comprehension issue, ToM … I thought you were being serious for a while.

    And … Well… excuse me for suggesting that change can be strongly resisted, even when it is in the public interest.

    I fkn know that … that’s what change agents deal with … FFS … and the resistance is often than not from management … the troops already know they have situational problems to deal with on the front line …

    But we need to determine just what is in the “public interest” … see how it works?

    Notice how you struggle with an alternative point of view to simply – “just privatise it”?

    That’s resisting change …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    A real issue is whether spending $500,000,000 on the War Memorial expansion is a good idea?

  258. Tom R permalink
    November 2, 2018 12:22 pm

    Good idea for whom though?

  259. TB Queensland permalink
    November 2, 2018 1:27 pm

    Indeed! TR

  260. Rusher`is`FakeNews`Teabag permalink
    November 2, 2018 2:56 pm

    On topic, l notice the leftists are getting overstimulated by believing there will be a wentworth ‘flow-on’ of anger across other electorate/s for knifing talkbull which l doubt. The leftists are mistakenly assigning the same value to the talkbull knifing as the kevin07 knifing. Voters all across the nation held their nose and voted for the kevin07 surrogate because they wanted kevin07 and gave him the landslide win. Barely dragging the teabags over the line, talkbull just made it and voter anger is mostly confined to the top-hat territory of wentworth. (talking head leftists on telly)

    ____

    So-called ‘change’ and its so-called ‘benefits’ usually come encased in a solid shell of econoBabble and manageWaffle and usually only impress boot-licks too dull to understand what is being covered up and too lucky to experience the effects.

  261. Know`Collusion`Teabag permalink
    November 2, 2018 4:38 pm

    Shane, got a link to ya karl marx? TBs link doesn`t have that story. Going by your snippet, marx really had a good grasp (140years-ago) of primate psychosis on greed.

  262. TB Queensland permalink
    November 2, 2018 4:58 pm

    On topic …

    Chuckle …

  263. Ware`is`My`Teabag permalink
    November 2, 2018 6:19 pm

    I’m glad you appreciate my FakeNews alert teebz, l always try to post a warning when l see an echoChamber developing.

  264. Cut`The`Wires`Teabag permalink
    November 2, 2018 8:33 pm

    OffGrid “ Solar and battery-powered classrooms ” While this is good news teebz, l’m a tad surprised LimitedNews would report this and proove me correct (again) and not our inHouse teabags. This “ three classrooms was partly funded with a $370,000 grant ” seems to include about $250k of troughsnouting and waste. 35-to 40k is the cost for battery solar house system. A classroom should be heaps cheaper than 40k as it won’t need the power of a house, even if allowing for aircon, heater and hotwater. Just don`t tell the inHouse teabags somebody was correct about offGrid battery solar baseload years ago, and it wasn`t them. (-:

  265. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 2, 2018 9:15 pm

    What is Trump doing to global markets?

    My guess is that he is personally creating a shortage of fake tan

    https://www.theage.com.au/national/fear-and-loathing-in-the-us-midterm-elections-20181031-p50d5a.html

  266. Shane in QLD permalink
    November 3, 2018 4:59 pm

    Know Collusion Teabag

    Here it is

    https://www.truthdig.com/articles/karl-marx-was-right-2

  267. TB Queensland permalink
    November 3, 2018 5:50 pm

    My guess is that he is personally creating a shortage in in my super fund income!

    Fixed for ya …

    ToM, I’d be interested in your opinion on the $500,000,000,000 to be spent on the War Memorial? (As opposed to homeless – an desperate ex-ADF members and families)

  268. Neil of Sydney permalink
    November 3, 2018 8:18 pm

    Shane

    I am now banned from posting at The Guardian. Did you have anything to do with that? The Guardian usually put me into moderation but then allows my posts. Now they have suspended my account. This is the only leftiist blog that allows me to post

  269. TB Queensland permalink
    November 3, 2018 11:12 pm

    LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL!

    This is the only leftiist blog that allows me to post

    I think you should send sreb a big thank you!

    Or maybe a big gift … let me know if you want to and I’ll send you her* address …

  270. TB Queensland permalink
    November 3, 2018 11:24 pm

    DEFLATION? FMD! (Ask our resident CPA what this means!)

    https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/australian-economy/giveaway-sign-australias-economic-engine-is-failing-to-launch/news-story/09f5c8a3bbecc73d8cf4e44f17855590

    LNP The Money Managers — my arse!

    They all need to study Accounting 101 followed by Economics 101 – 102 & 103! Fuckwits all!

  271. TB Queensland permalink
    November 3, 2018 11:25 pm

    Thanks to news.com.au …

    Has Rupert finally carked it????

  272. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 4, 2018 11:40 am

    TB, I don’t think it is a great use of $500,000,000

  273. Ware`ls`My`Teabag permalink
    November 4, 2018 2:03 pm

    Shane, truthdig, @thanks (-:

    ____

    Guardian @what.a.shame

    ____

    WarDept Memorial @Of course he doesn`t approve the lump of political purposed warFawning concrete; and of course he doesn`t approve of homeless handouts to those with military grade injuries either; as you imply.

    ____

    LimitedNews ‘economic engine’; Waste of time. Lot of unquoted statements; out of context ‘jumping’ this to that; other teams fault; teabag promotion; usual shit! Not mucking around with the other links.

    ____

    YankVote, my guess is theRonald will do a fair bit better than; what the usual echoChambers declare he will.

  274. November 4, 2018 11:28 pm

    I am unconvinced that Trump will be put back in his box, this coming week.

    I think he panders to acertain ‘reachable’ mass.

    I hope I am wrong.

    If the entire world went Adversarial & insular, armed conflagrations on a grand scale beckon.

  275. November 4, 2018 11:28 pm

    * a certain

  276. ivi permalink
    November 5, 2018 5:42 am

    (I hope I am wrong.

    Sanctions are coming?)

  277. Tom R permalink
    November 5, 2018 9:26 am

    sweet juices ivi, we have reached peak idiocracy

  278. TB Queensland permalink
    November 5, 2018 9:53 am

    If the entire world went Adversarial & insular, armed conflagrations on a grand scale beckon.

    My thoughts too, toylet …

    1930 ring a bell anyone … that too was a “reachable mass” … Herr Trump doesn’t drink, I read, other wise he may just as likely be in beer halls …

  279. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 5, 2018 10:19 am

    Virgin is going to salute vetrans when they board a flight? What a load of crap.
    https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/qantas-under-pressure-to-salute-veterans-on-flights-20181104-p50dxh.html

  280. Tom R permalink
    November 5, 2018 11:05 am

    What a load of crap.

    Qantas seem to think so

  281. Tom R permalink
    November 5, 2018 11:07 am

    Mind you, they aren’t infallible

    Qantas fears return to union anarchy

    https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/qantas-fears-return-to-union-anarchy/news-story/a48582a5259e59745e00493948537823

    Anarchy, like grounding the entire fleet without warning?

  282. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 5, 2018 11:38 am

    Qantas was being killed by work bans, that were not supported by the majority of unions or the majority of employees, even counting those in the Engineering and Maintenance area.

    A small minority union was pushing its insular interests. Is that the action and system you support?

  283. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 5, 2018 11:49 am

    And Virgin have always been more of a marketing company, rather than an operational airline. This ploy with veterans is another example

  284. Tom R permalink
    November 5, 2018 11:59 am

    Qantas was being killed by work bans

    Seemed that Qantas were being killed by the high price of fuel and the high Aussie dollar

    Funny that it was after those turned around, so did their ‘fortunes’

    After their infamous ‘war’ with Unions, their stock plummeted, for years

  285. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 5, 2018 12:26 pm

    Is it ok for a minority union to take action that threatened the viability of the airline, when it was not supported by the majority of unions or the majority of the workforce?

    Not even the majority of the Engineering and Maintenance workers/unions.

    There are about 12 unions with coverage, Qantas had reached agreement with others

  286. TB Queensland permalink
    November 5, 2018 12:31 pm

    Virgin is going to salute veterans when they board a flight? What a load of crap.

    All the Diggers I know would find that crap cringeworthy laughable … absolute BS.

  287. TB Queensland permalink
    November 5, 2018 12:32 pm

    It wasn’t the unions that stranded ?90,000? travellers … if I recall that was management …

    Keep it up ToM …

  288. TB Queensland permalink
    November 5, 2018 12:36 pm

    Late on Saturday afternoon, Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce had announced the airline was grounding all its planes worldwide and would lock out all its employees last night, in response to continuing low-level industrial action by pilots, engineers and ground staff.

    Apologies it was over 120,000 passengers

  289. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 5, 2018 12:44 pm

    I’d be interested to know how you and/or Tom R would have resolved the dispute

  290. Tom R permalink
    November 5, 2018 1:15 pm

    I’d be interested to know how you and/or Tom R would have resolved the dispute

    Pay the workers a fair days wage for a fair days work. 😉

  291. Tom R permalink
    November 5, 2018 1:20 pm

    The other option would have been to go to arbitration with them, you know, in the way it was resolved after the Government got involved

  292. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 5, 2018 1:33 pm

    Do you know how much they were paid? How much would have been fair? Was the ALAEA action about a claim for wages?

    And the only way to arbitration was so demonstrate that the action was having a significant economic impact. So that’s what happened.

  293. Tom R permalink
    November 5, 2018 1:48 pm

    And the only way to arbitration was so demonstrate that the action was having a significant economic impact. So that’s what happened.

    lol

    Then why did joyce say he had to ground flights because the strikes were causing ….. significant economic impact?

  294. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 5, 2018 2:12 pm

    One of the ALAEA claims was that Qantas had to build a new maintenance facility, even though there was no business case that would support the cost.

    Why have a board when the ALAEA can make those decisions for the company?

  295. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 5, 2018 2:16 pm

    Interestingly, industry bargaining would probably screw up Virgin rather than Qantas

  296. Tom R permalink
    November 5, 2018 2:30 pm

    One of the ALAEA claims was that Qantas had to build a new maintenance facility

    It was a proposal, and it wasn’t in the final deal once joyce was made to sit down and negotiate

  297. Tom R permalink
    November 5, 2018 2:31 pm

    Not even the majority of the Engineering and Maintenance workers/unions.

    What is your source for that?

  298. TB Queensland permalink
    November 5, 2018 2:31 pm

    I’d be interested to know how you and/or Tom R would have resolved the dispute

    1. Make sure that my clients were properly serviced and not inconvenienced …

    After that … who knows …

  299. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 5, 2018 2:40 pm

    ALAEA has about 3000 members, I think about 1400 are employed by Qantas. There are near a dozen unions with coverage of Engineering and Maintenance in Qantas – ETU, AWU, AMWU, ASU, CFMEU, APESMA, TWU….

    The ALAEA has about 20% of the number of employees in E&M

    The other unions – and they aren’t exactly soft ones – managed to reach agreement with Qantas. The ALAEA has a different agenda to the other unions

  300. Tom R permalink
    November 5, 2018 2:51 pm

    er, how many of those others deal with Licensed Aircraft Engineers

    Like a sparky or builder will be worried about the same things a Licensed Aircraft Engineer will be ffs

  301. Tom R permalink
    November 5, 2018 2:54 pm

    lol, TWU yomm?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Qantas_industrial_disputes

  302. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 5, 2018 2:57 pm

    ETU, AMWU, AWU all cover aircraft trades. They aren’t building industry trades.

    They all work in the same crews, doing the same work, but the LAME signs for the work.

    Aircraft trades aren’t electricians or builders

  303. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 5, 2018 3:02 pm

    Qantas can put up with most of the nonsense from the TWU – as the work doesn’t require CASA delegation – so it’s easy to get people to look after baggage handling.

    The ALAEA was the union that used the CASA approval delegation as an industrial tactic.

  304. Tom R permalink
    November 5, 2018 3:12 pm

    ETU, AMWU, AWU all cover aircraft trades.

    A very small portion of 😉

    and you listed CFMEU and TWU, the latter which was in that link I put up.

    So, seems like it wasn’t such a small portion of workers, it was a fair old swag of them involved

  305. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 5, 2018 3:17 pm

    No, most of the aircraft trades in Qantas would be member of unions other than the ALAEA.

    I think AMWU & AWU would each have more members than the ALAEA

    The TWU just jump on any issue they can to be disruptive, and usually the ASU is happy to do their work.

  306. Tom R permalink
    November 5, 2018 3:23 pm

    I think AMWU & AWU would each have more members than the ALAEA

    Yea, you’ve just recently made similar claims. Turned out they were not so accurate 😉

    The TWU just jump on any issue they can to be disruptive

    yea, right 😉

    In mid-2011, Qantas and the TWU went into industrial bargaining, where TWU employees demanded that the airline guarantee further improvements in working conditions and better wages.[4] In the nine months leading up to October, 200 meetings related to industrial bargaining were held.

  307. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 5, 2018 3:26 pm

    There are 26,000 employees of Qantas. – The ALAEA has maybe 1400

  308. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 5, 2018 3:28 pm

    And the TWU might have a few thousand. Between those 2 unions, they might cover less than a third of the workforce

  309. Tom R permalink
    November 5, 2018 3:30 pm

    And the third one involved?

    Also, did the other Unions support these actions?

  310. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 5, 2018 3:37 pm

    The other unions didn’t provide any support to them. Bland and non committal statements to the press was as far as the support went.

    And the dispute was exactly 7 years ago!

  311. Tom R permalink
    November 5, 2018 4:05 pm

    Bland and non committal statements to the press was as far as the support went.

    yea, right, none of them supported what joyce did

    https://www.couriermail.com.au/business/flight-attendants-union-backs-qantas-ceo-alan-joyce-in-standoff-with-other-unions/news-story/8ba1933c51c6911be00ceb0726f1ac39

  312. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 5, 2018 4:28 pm

    Yeah, look at all the statements of support from the unions that the ALAEA stymies – ETU, AWY, AMWU are all vociferous in their silence.

    Here’s those unions chiming in and wishing the ALAEA success –

  313. TB Queensland permalink
    November 5, 2018 5:26 pm

    And the dispute was exactly 7 years ago!

    And exactly seven (single digit number should be alpha not numeric*) years ago we were saying the same thing!

    UNIONS! BOO!

    LOL! 🙂

  314. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 5, 2018 7:10 pm

    I recall so many just chimed in to support the ALAEA even though theyvare elitist and stymie the career paths of other aircraft trades

  315. TB Queensland permalink
    November 5, 2018 7:43 pm

    I was going to say that you are one-eyed with regard to UNIONS BOO! ToM,

    Actually, I reckon you’re cock-eyed … have you ever thought about how much responsibility ALAEA members have for the safety of aircraft … you might want to think about it next time to settle into your business class wide seat with the welcoming glass of champagne/bubbly … 🙂

    Here ya go read … please …

    https://www.casa.gov.au/files/engineerscareerguide2011pdf

    … stymie the career paths of other aircraft trades … Please explain … ?

    Stymie … very USofA …

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    (As an aside to the above. Some of you may know that my son and I began our careers as motor mechanics {he is now a senior manager still in the auto industry} … we often discuss the odd fact that plumbers have to be licensed … and yet motor mechs are not … any idea how many people are killed or injured on the roads compared to those falling in a toilet!)

  316. Tom R permalink
    November 5, 2018 9:25 pm

    and stymie the career paths of other aircraft trades

    Oh do tell. You mean like not allowing those with proper accreditation to perform certain duties?

    RED TAPE ALERT!

  317. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 6, 2018 9:25 am

    Yes, red tape as an industrial tactic.
    ————
    I see Bunnings is advertising “festive trees” – does anyone anywhere call christmas trees, festive trees?

  318. Tom R permalink
    November 6, 2018 9:34 am

    Does anyone still call xmas trees, christmas trees? 😉

  319. TB Queensland permalink
    November 6, 2018 10:37 am

    … does anyone anywhere call christmas trees, festive trees?

    Does anyone really care?

    Suppose we’ll have to do your research for you again, ToM … here ya go … happy fetive season …

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_and_holiday_season

    You’ll note that jesus birthday is just more made up BS …

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_and_holiday_season

    etc etc etc …

  320. TB Queensland permalink
    November 6, 2018 10:39 am

    actually xmas is more like it if you pronounce it correctly … ie crossmas … lots of distress seems to occur at christmas …

  321. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 6, 2018 11:05 am

    Well I’m off to the Cup… well I will be as soon as it stops raining enough to leave the house! I haven’t seen this much rain since I was last in Brisbane

  322. TB Queensland permalink
    November 6, 2018 12:55 pm

    And you’ll never see as much SUN as the last time you were allowed to visit Brisbane 🙂

  323. TB Queensland permalink
    November 6, 2018 12:56 pm

    BTW, ToM, it does not rain in Brisbane, ever … we get liquid sunshine when needed …

  324. Walrus permalink
    November 6, 2018 4:53 pm

    I must say the rules of the Melbourne Cup were obviously wriited by an extreme Leftie of the type that is common in Victoria.

    Why else would you bring in the best stayers in the World and then fill their saddle bags with lead so that they all perform the same. The best ones carry the most weight (just like taxes) and the worst ones the useless ones carry bugger all.

    Its just like our tax system

  325. TB Queensland permalink
    November 6, 2018 5:55 pm

    Not the smartest analogy in the world …

    … I guess you lost …

    … I didn’t – I broke even … didn’t bet at all …

    … as for tax – I’d advocate for a flat 25% on earnings for anyone and everyone – personal or business … but the rich pricks would still want to cheat …

    … just like horse racing …

    🙂

  326. Boltsville`Pony`Show`Teabag permalink
    November 6, 2018 6:16 pm

    cock-eyed .. ” have you ever thought about how much responsibility ALAEA members have for the safety of aircraft ”

    but,but,but, licensing and safety is just red tape daOnions use as a weapon against boardrooms. lt serves no other purpose. (-:

  327. November 6, 2018 6:22 pm

    “… I didn’t – I broke even … didn’t bet at all …”

    That’s me…in every horse race, work lotto syndicate or when walking past the fucking bandits!

    Work is the worst. Everywhere I’ve ever worked, they get affronted when an individual (especially a blatant contrarian, such as I) won’t join their gambling/lotto syndicate. I try and explain that I understand probability to them, to no avail.
    They get even more bent out of shape when I do a running tally every year of what I am not down, purely by opting out.

    If I want to waste money, at least I’ll get something tangible for it.

  328. November 6, 2018 6:24 pm

    That said…all bets are off for the results of the US Mid Terms tomorrow.

    Any predictions?

    I predict an increasingly dangerous, deliberately divided America.

  329. TB Queensland permalink
    November 6, 2018 6:39 pm

    I predict an increasingly dangerous, deliberately divided America.

    From what I read – — me too …

    … my head keeps saying if it goes too far bloody Civil War II will erupt again!

    Trump is way too dangerous for the USofA … AND … unfortunately, Australia … and of course the World will simply erupt!

    What pisses me of the most … it was their fkn stupid Amrican War in Vietnam that cost me and my family two years and a lot of money … and I only served in Australia!

  330. November 6, 2018 7:00 pm

    They lead our politicians by the nose…even when Trump is at the helm.

    Pathetic.

    New Zealand, at least, has some humility.

  331. November 6, 2018 7:02 pm

    The ‘deliberate’ part of ‘deliberately divided’, is the galling bit.

    For populism & political expedience…with barely an inkling of that which is being sown.

  332. 51st`State`Teabag permalink
    November 6, 2018 7:23 pm

    Look squirters. You dudes need to learn to relax and; learn to enjoy the show. Squirting appears in many forms “ if it goes too far bloody Civil War II will erupt ” (so what? they all get to enjoy their amendment rights to use their war toys at home; instead of other lands?) “an increasingly dangerous, deliberately divided America ” (really? you don`t think every other tunc they`ve had in senate, house or prez haven`t been dividing off herds of imbecile?)

    Regular squirting often results with folks here saying they don`t want Aust to be the yank 51st state. Look harder tuncs. Every prime meddler we have had since ww2 has buried their head up the yank prez arse, along with their ministers. Take a look at our legacy outlets, all peddling the yank outlets legacy content, and not producing useful Aust content for Aust viewers.

  333. November 6, 2018 7:41 pm

    In fact, I am predominantly relaxed, and prepared to enjoy the (imminent) show.

    I just don’t (ever) like dense conservative populists being belligerent; much less ‘running’ powerful Nation States.

  334. TB Queensland permalink
    November 6, 2018 7:54 pm

    (so what? they all get to enjoy their amendment rights to use their war toys at home; instead of other lands?)

    You obviously have simplistic view of the world sometimes , tbagz.

    The point is that if the USA is playing North/South Civil War again then it takes the heat off Russia (let’s clobber Europe and the UK!) and China (Russia’s new “friend”) let’s clobber Japan, Australia and the Pacific Islands – and who knows where alliances will be formed and for what nasty purpose … meanwhile South America commits fkn suicide! and WWIII will incorporate hideous weapons you can’t imagine …

    In war there is a lot of “look over there” that murders populations … and its always civilians that suffer more than combatants … and I guess you would be one of the former …

    so what?

    Having been selected for a government ballot to go to war! Best of luck (as a civilian)!

    When you least expect it – you’re elected – you’re the star of the show …

  335. TB Queensland permalink
    November 6, 2018 7:56 pm

    Well, I never…

    FFS! The man should be in a home for the demented!

  336. TB Queensland permalink
    November 6, 2018 8:03 pm

    Here’s those unions chiming in and wishing the ALAEA success –

    Don’t be silly, that’s just festive season sleigh bells coupled with a grasshopper

  337. November 6, 2018 8:08 pm

    For a geopolitical tragic like me, tonight is the night.

    I am genuinely intrigued by the way it goes.

    Either way, it’s a swing of the pendulum.

  338. Rusher`is`FakeNews`Teabag permalink
    November 6, 2018 9:28 pm

    You seem to imagine a lot of coldwar scary scary; yet forgot there is 11-nukie toyed nations now, you would need the realdeal to have a total mental breakdown for him to send russia onto britannia or non-ussr europe. Claiming china would want to start anything anywhere when they are the great freetrade victors is quite delusional really. They are smart enough to know they have already won and will continue to enjoy winning. Our stupid tuncs are the only ones that don`t realize this.

  339. TB Queensland permalink
    November 7, 2018 9:12 am

    You seem to remember a lot of coldwar (sic) scary scary
    (Fixed for ya …)

    And I wasn’t too happy about the Vietnam War either …

  340. TB Queensland permalink
    November 7, 2018 12:19 pm

    First time in my life I’ve been interested in a US election …

    That sort of overseas influence is disturbing …

  341. Shane in QLD permalink
    November 7, 2018 1:31 pm

    ToM

    How was the cup?. My father loved his few bets every week and had a desire to go to the cup, but sadly he passed away before he went. I have decided to go to the cup one year in honour of my dad.

    As for unions have a read of some facts ToM

    https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/tough-rules-on-unions-have-stifled-australian-wages-20170704-gx44rg.html

  342. Cut`The`Wires`Teabag permalink
    November 7, 2018 2:26 pm

    Sure you `remember` ALL the coldwar scary scary? Even the bit that nobody actually had the nads to use their nukies? Do you really think ANY of the greedy tuncs anywhere would risk their hoarded wealth going up in nukie smoke? (no, they don`t give a flying fcuk about the rest of us)

    ____

    l also noticed shane seems to object to saudi ‘targeted’ dealings with fakenews purveyors at embassy levels. While of course tragic on the human and personal level. Remember the yanks also opened the floodgate on smoking reporters with ‘collateral murder’.

  343. TB Queensland permalink
    November 7, 2018 3:06 pm

    Sure you `remember` ALL the coldwar scary scary?

    I sure do – but then again, in the 1950’s, I lived about 20,000km north of Oz …

    And it only takes one fuckwit to turn the key … and if you haven’t noticed – there is a lot of fuckwits with a key to nuclear weapons …

    And just in case you never realised or didn’t know …

  344. e=m`c`Teabag permalink
    November 7, 2018 3:21 pm

    (Primate see. Primate do. Which is pretty much how most of the global political duopoly`s operate. InHouse we have a few primates addicted to their econoBabble, manageWaffle and corproGrunting. Did you notice?)

  345. TB Queensland permalink
    November 7, 2018 3:37 pm

    https://www.news.com.au/sport/superracing/the-truth-about-the-horse-that-died-at-the-melbourne-cup/news-story/1412ac2979aefb906874267c706ae6d8

    Want to see cynical, hypocrisy? … read the “story” … and then check the “sponsor” …

  346. Enemy`Of`The`Primates`Teabag permalink
    November 7, 2018 5:03 pm

    But that is all Re-Imagined coldwar scary scary. There is 11-nukie nations where nobody had the nads to push the button/s; turn the key/s or pull the chain. The primates obviously subliminally decided they didn`t wish to have a nukie powered mutually assured near extinction experience at the time. lnstead the primates decided they`d prefer the slower pollution powered, plasticized, skyfairy approved, global cooling near extinction experience at a later date. That`s where the Profit is.

  347. TB Queensland permalink
    November 7, 2018 5:54 pm

    Yeah, what do we need UNIONS for?

    Employers are as honest as the Liberal Party when it comes to entitlements for employees and paying tax …

    The employment department is refusing to reveal the identities of the directors who contributed to a total unpaid wage bill of $1.6bn over 10 years, which was left to taxpayers to pick up.

    New figures, produced under freedom of information laws, show that 1,322 people, who were each directors of two or more companies that failed, were responsible for a quarter of the unpaid wage bill, or $400m.

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/nov/18/government-shields-directors-after-taxpayers-foot-16bn-wage-dues

  348. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 7, 2018 7:43 pm

    Unions mainly operate in the public sector, the workforce expects the government to provide a strong regulatory framework.

    You might remember thst Howard got the arse because he undremined this.

  349. November 7, 2018 8:15 pm

    Great sport being had at Herr Boltworld.

  350. Tom R permalink
    November 8, 2018 9:51 am

    the workforce expects the government to provide a strong regulatory framework.

    And that is letting them down, which is giving Unions a resurgent relevance.

    Of course, it is always forgotten who provided this “strong regulatory framework” in the first place 😉

  351. TB Queensland permalink
    November 8, 2018 10:23 am

    … the workforce expects the government to provide a strong regulatory framework.

    And that demonstrates your lack of understanding of the three roles in IR … regulation is too easily manipulated by political forces owned by one side or the other …

    IR should be about negotiation and agreement … by employers and employees … in the past unions have worked for both sides of IR (eg Chambers’ of Commerce or MTIA) … regulatory bodies are supposed to be arbitrators not draconian legislation …

  352. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 8, 2018 11:32 am

    FMD… really, you’re such an expert TB. Tell me all about your experience in retail and hospitality, which seems to be where the underpayment occurs.

    What’s the union density in those industries? And what (other than regulation) will ensure wages are correctly paid?

  353. Tom R permalink
    November 8, 2018 11:41 am

    And what (other than regulation) will ensure wages are correctly paid?

    Higher Union Density 😉

  354. shaneinqld permalink
    November 8, 2018 12:42 pm

    ToM

    There was NEVER the theft and dishonesty of business, like it is today, regarding payments to staff, records of staff and benefits to staff, when union membership was much higher and delegates could enter a workforce and inspect records of payments to employees.

    Regulation is fuck all Tom unless it is enforced and there are sufficient inspectors. All areas relating to employees and benefits have been slashed and self regulation is simply business allowing itself to do what the hell it wants to do. Regulation used to be enforced and monitored by Unions. I notice your total and utter silence regarding the link I provided and how Unions in Australia face the most draconian laws and we now no longer tave the right to strike unlike most other so called western democratic countries. It is a joke and the pendulum has flung itself off the clock and to the right of dictatorship when it comes to employees.

    It is not only hospitality and retail, it is everywhere,if it is not theft of hourly rate, or theft of super, it is theft of time, via non payment of overtime. It is endemic, however many are just too scared to complain for fear of losing their job. This government seems to only tolerate whistle blowers who have a gripe at a union, others are dragged before courts for breach of confidentiality to mask the actual illegal actions being revealed.

  355. TB Queensland permalink
    November 8, 2018 1:02 pm

    Tell me all about your experience in retail and hospitality

    LOL! I have some in both … and in mining, construction, auto retail sales/service and especially in flogging concepts and ideas to managers like you …

    TR? Have you noticed how we spend hours explaining stuff to ToM, but he never answers questions himself … I don’t think he has a clue about the workface, or unions at all …

  356. November 8, 2018 1:21 pm

    What Shane said!

  357. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 8, 2018 1:39 pm

    Restaurants, shops and cafes have never been unionised. Owners have always treated employment regulation as optional… but TB, an expert, thinks unions and employer associations should DO SOMETHING!!

    That’s a great plan.

  358. shaneinqld permalink
    November 8, 2018 2:16 pm

    ToM

    So who are these workers if not union members ?

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-26/protest-by-workers,-union-at-barry-cafe-in-northcote/9802124

    “Owners have always treated employment regulation as optional”. That’s why we need UNIONS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Of course employer associations and unions should DO SOMETHING, the owners are breaking the law. I have no doubt if it was unions treating regulation as optional this scum sucking arsehat of a government would have them all thrown in jail.

    It has swung too far, much too far and only the blind and ignorant and those on the take or thieving from staff think otherwise.

  359. TB Queensland permalink
    November 8, 2018 2:21 pm

    Yep, well nailed, Shane … I guess you have to live it to understand it …

  360. TB Queensland permalink
    November 8, 2018 2:27 pm

    … but TB, an expert, thinks unions and employer associations should DO SOMETHING!!

    Making stuff up again … you do understand arbitration …

    I actually cut a few paragraphs from my 1:02 comment … and then realised … WTF do you think you are?

  361. Ware`ls`MY`Teabag permalink
    November 8, 2018 4:18 pm

    R”estaurants, shops and cafes have never been unionised.” @WRONG premier wife-beater outlawed them. NOW ” Owners .. treat employment regulation as optional ” in boltsville.

  362. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 8, 2018 5:15 pm

    I have no idea what you’re on about TB.
    Arbitration about people being underpaid?

  363. Fairdinkum`Power`Teabag permalink
    November 8, 2018 5:41 pm

    WTF do you think you are? ” He knows exactly who he is. He is the corporate cocksucker sitting at work having lots of laughs throwing sticks into the long grass for stupid leftists to fetch. lts you that hasn`t worked out what he is.

  364. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 8, 2018 7:28 pm

    TB, you posted an article re underpayment.

    Enforcement of regulations is required. But you wandered into unions and employer associations being involved in arbitration. How does arbitration relate to the underpayment of wages?

  365. TB Queensland permalink
    November 8, 2018 7:50 pm

    I have no idea what you’re on about TB.

    Obviously …

    Arbitration about people being underpaid?

    I’m talking about people actually being paid for their effort, knowledge and skill-set!

    —–

    A fair days work for a fair days pay!

    And eight hours work, eight hours rest and eight hours play!

    Anything over that eight hours work … and you get paid additional for your time… time & a half, double time, time on time and a half … they’re called penalty rates for lost play/sleep/family/social time! (salaried folk often don’t get this) The system worked in Australia for decades until you and your Liberal (Mates? Masters?) chose to high-jack the system for the ROBBER BARONS … and profiteer our country … by kowtowing to the USA Uber Kapitalism System … Trickle Down Economics my arse!

    Of all the Nations in the World the USofA has the most sick system of the First World countries in the 21st Century … because the rich do not understand how to share wealth … Australia is FAST becoming an acolyte of the sick system that brought us the GFC … and Trump epitomises the system … drain the swamp? Its introducing more alligators to the swamp!

    ToM … tomorrow you could be homeless … it happens that quickly … your patronising, affluent, snide, arrogant questioning demonstrates a total disregard of, and for, the ordinary, average battling Aussie … it is breathtaking in its ignorance!

    The only thing you can NEVER recover is TIME!

    And time (and the skills you won’t/don’t have) are what workers in all industries are paid for … no-one is better than the next … we all make this country work …

    Try cleaning up in an aged care ward at six o’clock in the morning … I lasted 2 hours … and after six weeks unemployed I still had a family of four to support and a mortgage to pay!

    Do you think I respect those aged care workers!

    Arrogance is always born of ignorance!

    You have no idea what I’ve seen done and struggled with … and I Still Call Australia Home!

  366. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 8, 2018 8:06 pm

    If various employers avoid paying the arbitrated wage, when it is about $20 an hour, and weekend penalties why will they observe some other rate, UNLESS IT IS ENFORCED!

    The issue is enforcement of the statutory minimum. Without enforcement, and conseqeences, regulations are optional.

    You don’t seem to get that.

  367. November 8, 2018 10:27 pm

    “The issue is enforcement of the statutory minimum. Without enforcement, and conseqeences, regulations are optional.”

    So are you suggesting that we shouldn’t bother having regulations because most people won’t bother adhering to them ( a bit like the road code, I suppose), ….yes…?

  368. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 9, 2018 6:36 am

    Well… perhaps you would have noticed that some people tend to be community minded and observe the law because it is the right thing to do.

    Others don’t exhibit such goodwill.

    Or maybe you haven’t noticed that.

  369. Shane in QLD permalink
    November 9, 2018 8:41 am

    ToM

    Having UNIONS is ENFORCEMENT !!!!!. Crushing unions is Ideology for the extreme capitalist who believes workers are to be exploited and are a resource like paper or ink or a laptop. Disposable when no longer required.

    Enforcement has diminished dramatically since unions were placed under attack from the right. Did you even read the link I provided as your silence on the article is deafening.

  370. Tom R permalink
    November 9, 2018 8:44 am

    Or maybe you haven’t noticed that.

    If we didn’t have the latter, we wouldn’t need Unions (or regulations)

    As I explained to my kids the other night, most laws (and regulations) are there to prevent humans from being ……….. humans 😦

    Unfortunately, we all have to apply the law, regardless of our general good will.

    And, luckily for the cafe workers, they have Unions that will help apply the law to those of less goodwill, where the Government allows it

  371. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 9, 2018 8:47 am

    No Shane, thinking that unions will have sufficient membership of baristas erc is just not realistic.

    Rhey might round up some members in big retail chains but they will never do that in the areas where underpayment is part of the business model.

    Regulation with strong enforcement is a reasonable deterrent

    If baristas and waitresses want to join a union, that’s great, but it won’t make much difference to the way the hospilality industry operates.

  372. Tom R permalink
    November 9, 2018 8:51 am

    Did you even read the link I provided as your silence on the article is deafening.

    yomm linked to the actual policy a while ago, like it was written on tablets on a mountain. It was horrendous. I’m still getting over the fact that one of the restrictions on striking is if it causes financial pain to the employer

    THAT’S THE FUCKING POINT OF A STRIKE!!!

  373. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 9, 2018 9:06 am

    I think I’ve said previously, I don’t talk to links. I think debate means expressing/making points yourself. But I’ll look at Shane’s link later.

  374. Tom R permalink
    November 9, 2018 9:29 am

    Of course you don’t do links

    Means you can make outlandish claims, and ignore reality.

  375. shaneinqld permalink
    November 9, 2018 9:29 am

    ToM

    A link simply allows me to provide you with information without having to type it all again. I am not the worlds best typist at the best of times, plus I do have a business to operate as well.

    So in your case you never read a link?. How do you even find anything out then? Are you simply parroting Sky and Fox News ?Even if you search for things yourself you are given links on sites and I have no doubt you click those links.

    You seem to have this blind spot where the only rorting of employees is happening in the hospitality area. It is happening EVERYWHERE in every industry, it is done a little bit more underhanded in bigger industries and bigger companies but it is there all the same, with nothing ever put in writing but rather phone calls or one on one meetings. Witnessed it myself being done to myself, pressure, manipulation but too worried about keeping my job than to complain. I understand the fear of intimidation from management.

  376. Tom R permalink
    November 9, 2018 9:55 am

    So in your case you never read a link?

    Exhibit A) https://theguttertrash.com/2018/10/15/coalition-back-in-the-race-with-morrison-at-the-helm/#comment-149022

  377. TB Queensland permalink
    November 9, 2018 11:01 am

    And this …

    … but it won’t make much difference to the way the hospilality (sic) industry operates.

    United We Stand! Might be a three word slogan … but union members put that into action …

    I’ve seen cheating employers shit themselves when the union was mentioned (not literally of course) … as a production manager I invited the AMWU to talk to my troops (I’d just signed the company up to the MTIA) … they told them to piss off … I had to tell them that I couldn’t guarantee that I would be there much longer (my original agreement for a pay rise after achieving my targets was being ignored … and I knew I was moving on) …

    The point is if cheating employers know the union is in the wings … it helps employees …

    The more I read ToM’s comments I see that he either sees unions as irrelevant or extremely dangerous … not sure which …

    However, I can assure him that legislation has never been “enough” to protect workers … and never will.

  378. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 9, 2018 11:24 am

    Yeah … just as a matter of interest, I’m sitting in a cafe on the coast at the moment. I can just imagine the people here shitting themselves at the likelihood of a union turn up.

    No.

    And Shane, while there may be instances of underpayment in a range of industries, hosputality and retail is where the evidence shows that it is regarded as a business model. Properly enforced regulation is required, and expected by the public.

    It’s wishful thinking to imagine that unions are going to regroup and deal with the issue. The level of union membership in the private sector is now about 10%.

  379. shaneinqld permalink
    November 9, 2018 12:09 pm

    ToM

    Yes it is wishful thinking when we have a government determined to destroy unions, the actual enforcers of regulation on behalf of employees and people like yourself who detest unions to the extent of outright hatred, while seeming to think they are no longer relevant.

    You seem to live in some kind of bubble land where employers love and treat their employees like family, where they make sure their benefits and all their entitlements are paid before the company pays the owners massive wages and rorts, Where super is paid in accordance with the law. Where there are enough inspectors outside of unions to enforce legislation and regulation. Where regulators are not influenced by business and the threat of closing down businesses as an excuse for not paying the correct wages or entitlements.

    The theft now amounts to over $1,000,000,000 dollars yet we have hysteria over a few dollars a union has spent incorrectly. The priority is all wrong.

    Some of my friends are union haters like yourself, but guess who they rang when their son got ripped off, the union they hate and detest, the union their son never joined, the union that fought for their son, the hypocrisy was never even thought of. Astounding. and yes they still hate unions.

  380. Tom R permalink
    November 9, 2018 12:11 pm

    I can just imagine the people here shitting themselves at the likelihood of a union turn up.

    Yea, cos if paying a fair pice for a fair cuppa is too much, faark off

    I was quite happy to pay a Sunday loading for meals etc (actually, no I wasn’t, cos this should all be factored in) until we found out the workers weren’t getting the bloody loading

  381. shaneinqld permalink
    November 9, 2018 12:11 pm

    You also seem to think that employees are capable of complaining and nothing will happen to their job. That because no one complains, nothing is wrong. My how wrong that is.

  382. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 9, 2018 2:52 pm

    You are both inventing opinions for me!! Thanks but I really don’t need your help with that.

  383. Tom R permalink
    November 9, 2018 2:55 pm

    You are both inventing opinions for me!!

    Why then do you ‘assume’ that the patrons wouldn’t want the Union to show up to ensure that the people serving them are being compensated appropriately. Truly interested now.

  384. November 9, 2018 3:10 pm

    https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js

  385. November 9, 2018 3:14 pm

    “Well… perhaps you would have noticed that some people tend to be community minded and observe the law because it is the right thing to do. Others don’t exhibit such goodwill.”

    Which, I believe is why we have laws and penalties for breaking them.

    “Or maybe you haven’t noticed that.”

    I’m not even sure what your point is tbh.

  386. Tom R permalink
    November 9, 2018 3:18 pm

    I’m not even sure what your point is tbh.

    hmmm

    “Or maybe you haven’t noticed that.”

  387. Tom R permalink
    November 9, 2018 3:19 pm

  388. Tom R permalink
    November 9, 2018 3:26 pm

  389. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 9, 2018 3:34 pm

    So are you suggesting that we shouldn’t bother having regulations because most people won’t bother adhering to them ( a bit like the road code, I suppose), ….yes…?

    This seemed quite nonsensical, and I thought my reply was reasinable

  390. shaneinqld permalink
    November 9, 2018 5:20 pm

    ToM you have complained bitterly about unions for years now, just how you think I could form any other opinion than what I have regarding your opinion is enlightening.

  391. TB Queensland permalink
    November 9, 2018 5:52 pm

    Really odd because the right to withhold labour has always (until recently) been upheld in Australia, however, the further our present government slinks to the far right the less rights workers have … to rely on legislation alone is actually dictatorial rather than democratic … unless of course you are a communist or a fascist and they are both dictatorial and have little interest in the type of democracy that we we do …

    If workers unions have no value and wages and conditions should simply be set via legislation, then surely the business unions associations should be scrapped and prices for goods and services set by legislation … two sides of the same coin … and of course then we could set profit margins to say, 10% of net earnings, with any excess going to the government …

    If anyone fails to follow the rules they would be jailed and sent to Central Australia to work on the Solar Farms … should they cheat the “system” a second time they would be shipped off to the Soylent Facility – in Melbourne … and never heard of again.

  392. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 9, 2018 5:54 pm

    I’m not sure that I complain bitterly or about all unions Shane. Generally I point out the behavior of unions in construction and mining, and the effect of political affiliation.

    But I will point out that I seem to be on the receving end of more insulting comments than I post about people. I think people tend to post insults when they run out of intelligence

  393. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 9, 2018 6:05 pm

    the right to withhold labour has always (until recently) been upheld in Australia
    Really? The right to strike did not exist until enterprise bargaining in the early/mid 90s
    Could you point out how the right to strike has been limitrd by the “present government ”
    … and relying on the law is fascist or communist or dicratorial?? Are you posting that as a serious comment? I’m afraid I can’t tell, but I’d imagine it’s a joke

  394. TB Queensland permalink
    November 10, 2018 12:32 am

    Phew!

  395. TB Queensland permalink
    November 10, 2018 12:34 am

    Generally I point out the behavior of unions in construction and mining

    And they are “generally” wrong …

    The Queensland mining industry and a powerful union have joined forces to pressure the state Labor government to make changes to planned reforms that will force miners clean-up their sites.

  396. November 10, 2018 1:33 am

    “”I’m not sure that I complain bitterly or about all unions””

    😆 😆 😆 Oh my aching sides…!

  397. TB Queensland permalink
    November 10, 2018 11:47 am

  398. Boo`Hoo`Hoo`Teabag permalink
    November 10, 2018 6:14 pm

    But “ I will point out that I seem to be on the receving end of more insulting comments than I post

    Utter Crap! Whether here, the politicalSword, or the coffeeBlogs, you`ve merely been clubbed with your own stupidity and denial.

  399. Neil of Sydney permalink
    November 11, 2018 8:56 am

    I clicked on Brendan O’Connors tweet and it said I am blocked from following or viewing his tweets. I cannot remember tweeting there. So one by one I am blocked from any ALP supporting site. The Guardian has suspended my account. This is one of the few leftists places that allows me to post

  400. November 11, 2018 9:09 am

    And here I was thinking that your Gravatar was a system generated one.

  401. Tom R permalink
    November 12, 2018 8:57 am

    Could you point out how the right to strike has been limitrd by the “present government ”

    You mean apart from the ABCC?

    Howard had done most of the heavy lifting for them 😉

    https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/RP0708/08rp33

    Although abbott tried to go further (and succeeded in many other smaller areas)

    https://www.australianunions.org.au/stop_tony_abbotts_anti_worker_laws

  402. TB Queensland permalink
    November 12, 2018 10:48 am

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/nov/12/coalition-cuts-funding-for-foodbank-charity-by-323000-a-year

    Merry Christmas from the Happy Clappy Church Prime Preacher!

    Do these christian pollies get meaner every day or is it only when the needy need help most …

    I suggest reading the comments too ..

    Labor 55 — LNP 45 … I wonder why?

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    And the homeless Trolley Hero now has over $100,000 to his name thanks to generous Aussies …

  403. Shane in QLD permalink
    November 12, 2018 4:43 pm

    ToM

    If you actually read my link it will explain to you how the right to strike has been severely limited by this government !!!.

  404. November 12, 2018 6:25 pm

    Pretty sure that unless you find yourself within a (odiously one-sided) ‘bargaining’ period (as I have been for 4+ years now) your right to strike has been ridiculously curtailed.

    Also very sure that Corporations know this, and are maximising its utility to their fullest.

    Change The Rules.

    I am living proof. I have no reason to lie about this shit.

    The latest move was the company (presumably) getting (allegedly) their accountant, who left 9+ years ago (with a massive golden handshake…along with his partner) to slime the members in a gigantic letter to the editor in the (very) local paper. The fact that the last, most recent vote on their proposed EA went down narrowly would be enough to infer that a cynic may think they’re desperately attempting to apply public pressure? All fine, but how in the actual fuck is someone (from staff) made redundant 9+ years ago in any way ‘across the facts’ of the state of play in my workplace currently? It’s worth noting too, that the author wasn’t a shift worker.

  405. TB Queensland permalink
    November 12, 2018 7:43 pm

    how in the actual fuck is someone (from staff) made redundant 9+ years ago in any way ‘across the facts’ of the state of play in my workplace currently? **

    Exactly … and anyone else for that matter … unless you’ve “experienced” the workface of IR you really shouldn’t “speculate” on what you “think” it is about …

    Oddly I’ve been on both sides of the fence and both need a good bit of maintenance in 2018!

    ** Empathy Bro …

  406. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 12, 2018 8:51 pm

    Who knows what motivates anyone to comment in the media… or blogs for that matter!!

    Unions constantly speak to the media about disputes, and absolutely spit the dummy if equally strident language is used in return.

    I think agreements get made when the secret ballot for protected industrial action passes. Employers generally realise it’s serious by then and the issues in dispute become pretty focussed.

  407. TB Queensland permalink
    November 12, 2018 10:49 pm

    Wot?

  408. Strawberry`Fields`Teabag permalink
    November 13, 2018 1:16 am

    What a surprise! lt was an industrial relations solution!

    (Living is easy with eyes closed,

    misunderstanding all you see.)

    ____

    Yes. Very xtian of the pentacostal meddler, less food for the poor and their kiddies.

  409. shaneinqld permalink
    November 13, 2018 8:15 am

    After reading this many White Americans are no less horrific or savage than the Nazis. What a terrible hideous country claiming the high moral ground. Makes me sick to my stomach.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/26/lynchings-sadism-white-men-why-america-must-atone

  410. Tom R permalink
    November 13, 2018 8:26 am

    Wot?

    I’m pretty sure that was management speak for
    “I’m sorry, it does appear that this grubmint has continued howards legacy of attacking unions and further restricting the Unions (and therefore employees) right to strike, amongst a myriad of other employer friendly/employee unfriendly laws and regulations, all of which has contributed to lower wages and more unsafe work places”

    I’m sure yomm will correct if I’ve misinterpreted his verbal diarrhea post

  411. TB Queensland permalink
    November 13, 2018 9:27 am

    More like constipation … the meaning certainly got stuck somewhere!

  412. Tom R permalink
    November 13, 2018 10:05 am

    https://twitter.com/TomRU12/with_replies

  413. November 13, 2018 4:53 pm

    “I think agreements get made when the secret ballot for protected industrial action passes. Employers generally realise it’s serious by then and the issues in dispute become pretty focussed.”

    We’ve had that live option (for P.I.A. and we’ve used it, politely, thus far) , after an affirmative secret ballot, for a couple of years, and we’ve been ‘gentle’ with what we could do.
    Still in the midst of a half decade long wage freeze.

  414. TB Queensland permalink
    November 13, 2018 5:11 pm

    Still in the midst of a half decade long wage freeze.

    We could freeze prices … oh wait!

  415. November 13, 2018 5:26 pm

    Yep.

    That shit never waits.

    It should also be recognised that the ‘Staff’ have all received requisite percentage pay increases over the duration of our wage freeze.
    Just the facts.

  416. November 13, 2018 5:28 pm

    By ‘our’, I do, of course, mean Union Members; not Staff.

  417. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 13, 2018 6:37 pm

    Well HD, once the secret ballot has occurred I think the action has to start within 30 days, or it lapses

    And it really isn’t easy to terminate the action, it’s expensive in legal fees and production. That’s why agreements are usually reached if there has been a ballot.

  418. November 13, 2018 8:59 pm

    You are correct, it lapses if not used within 30 days the first time. It was used, benignly.

    Now it is an ongoing live option. It has been used since, politely. It could be used MUCH more aggressively. The vast majority of members would much prefer to never have to exercise it that way.
    Also, the Company has spent a small fortune on lawyers & things have been in & out of arbitration along the journey.

    All the while, pay freeze.

  419. November 13, 2018 9:00 pm

    I realise that you are across the details on such things, YomM.

    I wouldn’t try & bullshit about it.

  420. November 13, 2018 9:04 pm

    Also, there has been at least one underhanded, desperate attempt at terminating the P.I.A. (which the Commissioner threw out).
    The very fact that it was profoundly rejected seems to illustrate what a crock the application to have the Action Terminated was.

    Anyhow, all of this would be on public record if you know where to look.

    I am heading into precarious non-disclosure territory.

  421. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    November 13, 2018 9:13 pm

    The legal process is expensive and employers can easily run up legal bills equal to a few years worth of pay increases , in just a few days of hearings. I find that misguided.

    Benign industrial action seems a little misguided too.

    But I’ve seen disputes in towns with only one major employer become very divisive.

  422. Tom R permalink
    November 14, 2018 9:23 am

    I find that misguided.

    Not for the company

    Sure, they paid the lawyers what they could have paid their workers over a couple of years, but, after that, the lawyers are gone, but the workers remain, and now they don’t have to pay them that.

    It pretty simple really.

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