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George Pell: Guilty of child sexual assault

February 26, 2019

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Close confidante of former Prime Minister Tony Abbott, George Pell, Australia’s most senior Catholic, has been found guilty of child sexual abuse.

A jury delivered the unanimous verdict on 11 December in Melbourne’s county court, but the result was subject to a suppression order and could not be reported until now.

Despite spending up to $2 million on a top legal team, bankrolled by a trust fund, the Cardinal lost his fight against the charges. He will not return to Rome and may end his days in a jail cell with his name on the sex offender’s register

He was found guilty of violent sex assaults against two young choirboys.

The jury of eight men and four women took three and half days to rule unanimously that the Cardinal, who stepped aside from his role in Rome when he was charged by Victoria Police in June 2017, attacked the boys just months after being appointed as Archbishop of Melbourne in 1996.

The offences occurred in December 1996 and early 1997 at St Patrick’s Cathedral, months after Pell was inaugurated as archbishop of Melbourne.

He was found guilty of five charges, one for penetration of a child under 16 and four of indecent assault involving a child under 16.

Pell looked down in shock as the verdict was handed down at 3.45pm on Tuesday, December 11, at the County Court of Victoria in Melbourne.

The 77-year-old could now face a sentence of between 10 and 14 years and has been remanded in custody

Good riddance.

 

 

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262 Comments leave one →
  1. February 26, 2019 11:25 am

    Tony Abbott on George Pell:

    “In my judgement he is a very fine man indeed.”

  2. Tom R permalink
    February 26, 2019 11:39 am

    In abbotts ‘judgement’, climate change is crap.

    We really need to stop financing these buggers with taxpayers dollars

  3. February 26, 2019 11:42 am

    https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js

  4. February 26, 2019 12:39 pm

    https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js

  5. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 26, 2019 1:26 pm

    This verdict shows the shocking and perverted arrogance of people in powerful positions

  6. Tom R permalink
    February 26, 2019 1:35 pm

    The world can now know that a little over 20 years ago, in Pell’s first months as archbishop of Melbourne, this scourge of sex was forcing choirboys to suck his penis.

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/feb/26/brutal-and-dogmatic-george-pell-waged-war-on-sex-even-as-he-abused-children

  7. Tom R permalink
    February 26, 2019 1:37 pm

    btw, Julia Gillard should be thanked for all this.

    Will we see much of that in the press?

  8. Remember`When`Teabag permalink
    February 26, 2019 3:09 pm

    JG ” should be thanked ” @yeah okay

    ____

    This ” verdict shows the shocking and perverted arrogance ” @l seem to recall a lot of `inHouse` pedo-defending yomm, Do you?

    ____

    @but of course We DO all remember all the LimitedNews and ipa Trolls springing to pells defense ; Don`t we folks?

  9. TB Queensland permalink
    February 26, 2019 3:49 pm

    What can I say!

    I HOPE YOU ROT IN FUCKING HELL … PELL! Purgatory may be more appropriate …

    Condolences to the choirboys and their families …

    And the Pope can stop his blathering about people who challenge the church being friends of the devil … talk about fkn hypocrites one and all …

    And what was the reason for the bloody suppression order … so Pell could enjoy chistmas another religious hypocrisy …

  10. It`Flutters`Where`Teabag permalink
    February 26, 2019 4:26 pm

    Thanks Joolya

    ____

    Primates nicking fruit from the talking snakes enchanted orchard sends the skyfairy into a fluttering rage for centuries. But pedos in fancy dress molesting children on an industrial scale. Hey! No Problem!

  11. TB Queensland permalink
    February 26, 2019 5:56 pm

    Way OT … but … a very good source informs that NAB are planning to cut loose 900 employees …

    Payback for RC d’ja think … ?

  12. TB Queensland permalink
    February 26, 2019 6:04 pm

    “The jurors must have judged the complainant to be honest and reliable even though many of the details he gave were improbable if not impossible.” Father Brennan

    https://www.news.com.au/national/some-people-cant-accept-cardinal-george-pell-is-guilty-of-child-sex-offences/news-story/d6608a9380f4c036219947fed454b832

    12 jururs, to one biased priest … bloody hell will they never learn … so used to playing god almighty they just can’t believe they are mere mortals …

    … with way too much power and control … still invading our public schools …

  13. Tom R permalink
    February 26, 2019 7:26 pm

    Payback for RC d’ja think … ?

    Business as usual unfortunately 😦

  14. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 26, 2019 7:32 pm

    I am not up on the whole case but I read on another site that Pell was convicted on the testimony of the accuser. Furthermore his testimony in the current case was not heard in court but via a recorded testimony. There was no other evidence. Is this correct?

    I am sure that child abuse has occurred by Priests but the conviction in the current case does seem strange. If my points are correct it means anybody can be convicted by the testimony of an accuser with no other evidence

  15. Tom R permalink
    February 26, 2019 9:37 pm

    Shit, andrew bolts logged in

  16. TB Queensland permalink
    February 26, 2019 10:53 pm

    If my points are correct it means anybody can be convicted by the testimony of an accuser with no other evidence

    Ask that question when you have sat on a jury …

    I’ve been on two … one as foreman …

  17. Going`to`Water`Teabag permalink
    February 27, 2019 4:43 am

    citing an ” unnamed Dalian Port Group official. China`s foreign ministry wouldn`t say if it was specifically targeting Australia, only that it regularly inspects coal imports for environmental reasons, international wire service Bloomberg said. The move may be a shot across the bows of Australia, which last year followed the US in banning Chinese telecommunications giant Huawei Technologies Co from its 5G network on security concerns.”

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12206162

    I know which imbecile (and his black pet rock) is going to lose this one.

  18. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 27, 2019 4:13 pm

    No evidence. No fingerprints. No DNA evidence. No eye witness testimony. Just he said she said. And the jury convicted. WE are in a sorry state.

    It should be stated that the current ALP leader has been accused of a serious crime committed in the 1980’s but the Victorian police dropped the case because there was not enough evidence to bring the case to court. Just he said she said evidence.

  19. TB Queensland permalink
    February 27, 2019 4:22 pm

    Reasonable analysis … er, Pell was found guilty beyond reasonable doubt by 12 jurors … after three and a half days of “analyis” following months in the courtroom …

    I prefer the judges professionalism – who BTW sat through the complete trial … and would have a much more sound, knowledgeable and experienced point of view than any journalist’s … analysis/opinion …

    And this is just sickening … and in fact the final nail in the coffin … if that’s a “defence”, its indefensible

    Cardinal George Pell’s bail application has been withdrawn and he has been remanded in custody following a sentencing hearing in which his lawyer, Robert Richter, described one of Pell’s offences as a “plain vanilla sexual penetration case where the child is not actively participating”.

    Pell was taken away by corrections officers after his bail was formally revoked. He will be sentenced on 13 March after his conviction for sexually assaulting two 13-year-old boys.

    The former prime minister John Howard was among those who provided character references for Pell as the cardinal’s legal team tried to argue for a lower-end sentence in Melbourne’s county court on Wednesday morning.

    That claim was rejected by the chief judge, Peter Kidd, who said he saw Pell’s behaviour as “callous, brazen offending” and “shocking conduct”.

    “He did have in his mind some sense of impunity. How else did he think he would get away with this? There was an element of force here … this is not anywhere near the lower end of offending.”

    Richter’s renowned defence style was on full display, as he tried to argue with Kidd that there were “no aggravating circumstances” to one of Pell’s offences.

    It was “no more than a plain vanilla sexual penetration case where the child is not actively participating”, Richter said.

    Kidd responded: “It must be clear to you by now I’m struggling with that submission. Looking at your points here – so what?”

    Richter also tried to suggest that an incident in which Pell grabbed one of the boys by the genitals in an attack that lasted seconds was “fleeting” and not worthy of a jail sentence. Kidd disagreed.

    “That wasn’t just a trifling sexual assault,” he said.

    “Nothing is to be gained here by comparing different forms of sexual abuse of children. Of course I need to make a judgement of the overall gravity of this. But there is a limit to these kinds of comparisons.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/feb/27/cardinal-pell-will-go-straight-to-jail-as-bail-application-is-withdrawn

    And anyone who thinks Pell’s guilt should be defended are an accessory to the crime after the fact …

    I wan’t in the court or the jury room … I trust my peers … so should you …

  20. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 27, 2019 4:27 pm

    >>>>>>>>>Robert Richter, described one of Pell’s offences as a “plain vanilla sexual penetration case where the child is not actively participating”.<<<<<<<<<<<<

    There has to be something wrong with that statement surely? Good reason not to trust the media. But this from Toms link

    <<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>

  21. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 27, 2019 4:29 pm

    This from Toms link

    —“Which means Pell was found guilty beyond reasonable doubt on the uncorroborated evidence of one witness, without forensic evidence, a pattern of behaviour or a confession.
    It is a matter of public record that it is rare to run a case on the word of one witness, let alone gain a conviction.”

  22. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 27, 2019 4:29 pm

    Reasonable analysis is just that.

    Juries have never been wrong?

  23. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 27, 2019 4:44 pm

    anyone who thinks Pell’s guilt should be defended are an accessory to the crime after the fact …

    You’re now a lawyer too?

  24. February 27, 2019 4:56 pm

    A shopkeeper in an IGA once asked me if I was a lawyer, apparently he thought “I looked” like a lawyer.

    Naturally I replied honestly and said “No, but it’s funny you should mention that, I’m actually a High Court Judge.”

  25. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 27, 2019 5:03 pm

    Yes, grocers are pretty experienced in such matters… as well as knowing the difference between a zucchini and a cucumber

    Impressive

  26. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 27, 2019 5:09 pm

    Robert Richter, described one of Pell’s offences as a “plain vanilla sexual penetration case where the child is not actively participating”.

    I knew there had to be something wrong with that statement. I read elsewhere that the defense cannot question the courts decision or something like that. It is not an admission that Pell committed any crime

  27. February 27, 2019 6:18 pm

    It is not an admission that Pell committed any crime”

    As much as it pains me to say so, Neil is correct. I asked a similar question on the twitters earlier today:


    Hang on, Pell says he’s innocent, but his lawyer claims it was “plain vanilla sexual penetration”, so even his own lawyer admits he’s guilty. And that’s his defence…?

    And a helpful fellow replied:

    We all got confused about that but lawyer @BarnsGreg explained that because he was found guilty they have to argue re seriousness of sentence on what was found. “The plea has to be conducted on the basis of findings. This does not mean a person is admitting it happened.”

  28. TB Queensland permalink
    February 27, 2019 7:30 pm

    You’re now a lawyer too?

    I don’t play lawyer … I just quote the law … you should read more … your sarcasm always gets you in the shit, ToM

    Could you tell me what “vanilla sex” is, please?

  29. TB Queensland permalink
    February 27, 2019 7:37 pm

    This does not mean a person is admitting it happened.”

    Silly legal argument in the 21st Century and (anti)social media … Pell’s defence lawyer may have so clever he’s fucked his client … or vice versa … oops … pun NOT intended …

  30. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 27, 2019 7:45 pm

    Wrong TB

    Apparently Pells defense lawyer is not allowed to question the courts decision. Use your brains. There is no way a defense lawyer would say something like what he said unless there was good reason. Apparently Richter has to play along with the court. Yes and what is “vanilla sex”

  31. TB Queensland permalink
    February 27, 2019 7:57 pm

    He argued that Pell’s crimes — which include sexual penetration of a child under 16 — were “plain” and “vanilla”.

    He suggested the Vatican’s third most senior catholic should get a slap on the wrist because his sex crimes against two boys lasted “less than six minutes”, there was “no ejaculation” and “no use of any implement”.

    Use your brains. Jesus fucking christ!

    Apparently Richter has to play along with the court

    Play along … he’s a fkn BARRISTER! Barristers don’t play … this isn’t Rumpole of the Bailey!

    Yes and what is “vanilla sex”

    That was my fkn question! Duh!

    Stupid is …

  32. TB Queensland permalink
    February 27, 2019 8:00 pm

    In the course of his job he’s represented tax cheats, bikies, fraudsters, surgeons and billionaires, but his display in court today was perhaps his most astonishing.

    Judge Kidd put him “on notice” for suggesting Pell’s crimes inside Melbourne’s St Patrick’s Cathedral in 1996 were “on the low end of offending”. Judge Kidd said plainly that he would not entertain that notion.

    “People make reasoned choices,” he told the court.

    Reasoned choices … Pell made reasoned choices with two choirboys … who had been “naughty” drinking wine …

    I would have made reasoned choices had they been mine! Jesus wept!

  33. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 27, 2019 8:09 pm

    Did you read what Reb posted at 6.18PM about vanilla sex thingy?

    “We all got confused about that but lawyer @BarnsGreg explained that because he was found guilty they have to argue re seriousness of sentence on what was found. “The plea has to be conducted on the basis of findings. This does not mean a person is admitting it happened.”

  34. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 27, 2019 8:18 pm

    You really don’t seem to understand the plea hearung process TB.

    It happens following a guilty verdict

  35. TB Queensland permalink
    February 27, 2019 9:55 pm

    You really don’t seem to understand the plea hearung process

    I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a “hearung process” (is that catholic?) …… however I do understand the the appeal process after any serious conviction … prior to sentencing …

    I can lend you my texts on the subject if you wish … I confess to being more interested in the law of tort than criminal law … but I’m sure you understand that both streams coincide when it comes to health and safety and business law …

    Name your poison … I recall a number of legal issues over the past few years that you have made the courts’ decisions long before they have and I have argued that we should wait for the outcome … selective comes to mind … Pell has been found guilty … and I doubt the presiding judges will be sympathetic to the defence arguments for leniency and/or appeal based on the remarks by defending counsel today … and the judge’s heavy rejection of particular statements by defence counsel …

    Anyone checked TAB bets?

  36. TB Queensland permalink
    February 27, 2019 9:56 pm

    Let’s see what happens …

  37. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 27, 2019 10:08 pm

    TB

    You posted the link that Pell is guilty of vanilla sex. What is that?

    But use your brains. Pells defense lawyer apparently has to agree with what the court says. But there is no way he agrees with what has happened

  38. TB Queensland permalink
    February 27, 2019 10:24 pm

    You posted the link that Pell is guilty of vanilla sex. What is that?

    No I didn’t … use your brains

    Ask Pell’s lawyer …

    “””” TB Queensland permalink
    February 27, 2019 7:30 pm

    You’re now a lawyer too?

    I don’t play lawyer … I just quote the law … you should read more … your sarcasm always gets you in the shit, ToM

    Could you tell me what “vanilla sex” is, please?””””

    In other words … Brainiac … I don’t have a fucking clue … that’s why I asked the question … obviously no-one here knows … or they are still licking their ice creams …!

  39. Neil of Sydney permalink
    February 27, 2019 10:45 pm

    U did post the link re vanilla sex here it is posted at 4.22PM

    https://theguttertrash.com/2019/02/26/george-pell-guilty-of-child-sexual-assault/#comment-153647

  40. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 27, 2019 10:48 pm

    TB, you say –  “I just quote the law …”

    Really? So…which one of your texts is this statement from?

    “And anyone who thinks Pell’s guilt should be defended are an accessory to the crime after the fact …”

  41. ivi permalink
    February 28, 2019 8:24 am

    (“I think it has to be understood that Mr Richter is not talking to a jury, he is not talking to the media, he is talking to a judge,” he said.)

  42. February 28, 2019 9:16 am

    Pell will be in one of the prisons where Victoria houses paedophiles. He will know so many of the faces, so many priests and brothers who have done what he continues to deny having done himself. What reunions there will be.

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/feb/27/take-him-away-please-george-pell-had-not-dressed-for-prison-but-thats-where-he-went?CMP=share_btn_tw

  43. February 28, 2019 9:20 am

    Despite a strict media blackout, investigative journalist Lucie Morris-Marr attended each day of the entire legal proceedings against Cardinal George Pell for The New Daily.

    Two trials were suppressed for legal reasons from publication until this week, when another set of child abuse charges against the Cardinal was dropped due to lack of evidence.

    The first trial started in August 2018 and resulted in a hung jury five weeks later. A retrial began in November, and a guilty verdict was reached in December.‏

    Lucie Morris-Marr’s diary of the first trial reveals what unfolded in courtroom 4.3 at the County Court of Victoria, Melbourne.

    The first episode of this series outlines the first six days of the trial, beginning August 15. And a warning: This article contains graphic information that readers may find disturbing.

    https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/national/2019/02/27/pell-diaries-part-one/

  44. Tom R permalink
    February 28, 2019 9:45 am

    Just leaving this here, for Defenders of the Faith

  45. Tom R permalink
    February 28, 2019 10:15 am

    This article contains graphic information that readers may find disturbing.

    Get the Foucault a here, ya don’t say?

  46. Walrus permalink
    February 28, 2019 11:16 am

    “And anyone who thinks Pell’s guilt should be defended are an accessory to the crime after the fact …”

    Based on that stupid comment Lindy Chamberlain’s supporters would have been jailed

    Spare us the Bush Lawyers

  47. TB Queensland permalink
    February 28, 2019 11:28 am

    Really? So…which one of your texts is this statement from?

    Its actually … the Criminal Code itself! (Queensland but you can check Victoria’s – it’ll be pretty much the same)

    CRIMINAL CODE 1899 – SECT 544

    Accessories after the fact to offences

    544 Accessories after the fact to offences

    (1) If a person becomes an accessory after the fact to a crime, the person commits a crime.

    (2) If a person becomes an accessory after the fact to a misdemeanour, the person commits a misdemeanour.

    (3) If a person becomes an accessory after the fact to a simple offence, the person commits a simple offence.

    http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/qld/consol_act/cc189994/s544.html

    Then of course there’s obstruction of justice, sub judice … all possibilities …

  48. Tom R permalink
    February 28, 2019 11:31 am

    Based on that stupid comment Lindy Chamberlain’s supporters would have been jailed

    And Craig Thomsons? 🙂

  49. TB Queensland permalink
    February 28, 2019 11:37 am

    Spare us the Bush Lawyers

    And the Bull Shit before my comment …

    Pell has been found guilty … he is not the accused … it is not alleged … it is not, not guilty … it is guilty … he is a prisoner of the state …

    I for one will not defend a convicted pedophile … any pedophile … let alone the most senior catholic cleric in Australia and an ex senior cardinal of the Vatican … about to be defrocked by the Pope …

    “defrocked” is an interesting term to use …

  50. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 28, 2019 11:57 am

    If TB was on the jury, he would have put aside all the preconceptions about “catlicks” and their culpability.

    But TB, do you seriously think quoting the criminal code addresses your comment – “And anyone who thinks Pell’s guilt should be defended are an accessory to the crime after the fact …”

  51. Tom R permalink
    February 28, 2019 12:01 pm

    “I Don’t Think There Is Enough Evidence To Convict Pell” Says Man Who Invaded Iraq On A Hunch

    https://www.betootaadvocate.com/headlines/i-dont-think-there-is-enough-evidence-to-convict-pell-says-man-who-invaded-iraq-on-a-hunch/

  52. Tom R permalink
    February 28, 2019 12:27 pm

    What a sanctimonious fuckwit

    I wonder if his releasing the information is why the second trial didn’t go ahead?

    https://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2019/02/lawyer-greg-craven-on-the-media-abcfairfax-victoria-police-and-cardinal-pell.html#comments

  53. Walrus permalink
    February 28, 2019 12:38 pm

    “I for one will not defend ………….. the most senior catholic cleric in Australia and an ex senior cardinal of the Vatican … about to be defrocked by the Pope …”

    And that sentence says it all.

    As ToM said sarcastically

    “If TB was on the jury, he would have put aside all the preconceptions about “catlicks” and their culpability. “

  54. Tom R permalink
    February 28, 2019 1:15 pm

    If TB was on duty, Pell would have been crazy to have allowed him, wouldn’t he?

    Which is why it was so irresponsible for idiots like michael smith to broadcast the news.

    Which he is now complaining about news being broadcast, hypocritical fuckwit

  55. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 28, 2019 1:21 pm

    TB’s views aren’t particularly rare… there’s a fair percentage of the population that share them. So how would everyone with TB’s views have been excluded?

    How many challenges are available?

  56. Tom R permalink
    February 28, 2019 1:30 pm

    How many challenges are available?

    I’m sure Craig Thomson could tell you

  57. Tom R permalink
    February 28, 2019 3:55 pm

    Meanwhile, for some light entertainment

  58. TB Queensland permalink
    February 28, 2019 4:01 pm

    What a sanctimonious fuckwit

    Seems there’s a lot of it going around …

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    TB’s views aren’t particularly rare… there’s a fair percentage of the population that share them.

    With obviously good reason …

    And you may not have noticed, that I did not have an opinion until after the verdict and Pell was found guilty … unlike some people here with other court cases …

    And I wasn’t on the jury, (NO-ONE here was), nor would I want to be (I’d probably be challenged anyway, as soon as I asked for the, Affirmation, rather than the Bible … and quite frankly I wouldn’t want to be on the jury … I’ve never wanted to be on a jury … but I have – and I trust the system and particularly the 12 jurors who actually HEARD the case …

    The Court of Appeal will be interesting … no jury … (usually) three judges … and generally based upon points of law … (juries are retired from the court during points of law in trials) …

    In criminal court defence and prosecution each have eight challenges (think its two each in civil)

    Lot of ballots to get onto a jury but challenge occurs during swearing in, from memory 24 possible jurors are selected by ballot for empanelment … 12 are selected …

    And BTW this bush lawyer has a few wins under his belt … including the against the Federal Government in the AAT …

  59. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 28, 2019 4:13 pm

    1. I haven’t noticed much (if any) discussion here about Pell’s charges until now. Who has been commenting on it previously?
    2. Do you think juries ever get it wrong?
    3. How do you justify your comment – “And anyone who thinks Pell’s guilt should be defended are an accessory to the crime after the fact …” ? The link you said justified it does no such thing.
    4. I’m sure many of us have had exposure to tribunals . So… the AAT … WOW!!

  60. TB Queensland permalink
    February 28, 2019 6:00 pm

    ToM, you have so many questions that you haven’t answered from me its wearisome … coupled with snide remarks and sarcasm its become boring … throw in the occasional amateurish questionnaire … its moronic ie:

    2. Do you think juries ever get it wrong?

    Your the one that wants “discussion” … I don’t think so …

    Jesus wept!

  61. TB Queensland permalink
    February 28, 2019 6:01 pm

    You’re 🙂

  62. In the sticks permalink
    February 28, 2019 6:42 pm

    I’ll just leave this here

    https://badblood.blog/candle-lighting-the-catholic-response-to-the-pell-conviction/

  63. In the sticks permalink
    February 28, 2019 6:49 pm

  64. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    February 28, 2019 7:12 pm

    Really TB, all I’ve done is wuestion your own statements. Thecone about being an accessory to the crime is particularly odd and I’m not surprised that you’re trying to avoid justifying it.

  65. TB Queensland permalink
    February 28, 2019 10:59 pm

    Cohen chunders all over the White House and …

    …. Trump and Kimmy suddenly abandon their “talks” in Vietnam …

    Who believes in coincidence …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    BTW … I’ll just leave this here … compelling article, sticks …

  66. TB Queensland permalink
    February 28, 2019 11:07 pm

    The union watchdog official who launched an investigation into the AWU “assumed” Michaelia Cash had a political agenda when she sent him two “referral” letters about the alleged misuse of union funds, a court has heard.

    But Chris Enright, the executive director of the Registered Organisations Commission (the Roc), rejected claims he started the probe to help Cash discredit the Labor leader, Bill Shorten, who was the union’s boss when it donated to the activist group GetUp.

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/feb/28/union-watchdog-official-assumed-michaelia-cash-had-political-agenda

    Union watchdog? Union watchdog? Not the Employer Associations … oh, I see they are unions as well …

  67. Tom R permalink
    March 1, 2019 6:06 am

    It does seem strange that the court is trying to establish if an investigation, referred by a politician with a long history of Union aggression, to an entity created specifically by a party with a long history of Union aggression, as their first case, directly aimed at the leader of the opposition political party with a long history of Union involvement, as their first and only investigation, is somehow politically motivated.

    Nothing to see here

  68. Tom R permalink
    March 1, 2019 6:10 am

    fyi, this is the story of the two people the leading lights of the liberal party and their fellow travelers in murdochs stables are calling liars

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/feb/28/the-kid-and-the-choirboy-the-harrowing-story-of-george-pells-victims?CMP=share_btn_tw

  69. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 1, 2019 8:37 am

    https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-01/compulsory-voting-federal-election-the-good-bits-of-politics/10825482

    This is interesting for those that seem to suggest that democracy in Australia is in decline. Quite the opposite it seems

  70. Tom R permalink
    March 1, 2019 9:00 am

    Quite the opposite it seems

    If you ignore the actions of the current gummint, then, same same since compulsory voting was introduced.

  71. Tom R permalink
    March 1, 2019 9:07 am

    So, in howards book, since I’m not a ‘lively conversationalist’, he’d rather talk to a kiddy fiddler than me?

    Sucks to be boring I guess 😦

    https://junkee.com/pell-conservatives-lecture/195839

  72. Neil of Sydney permalink
    March 1, 2019 12:25 pm

    I have just read another thing that if true is amazing. Apparently the victim was not cross examined under oath in the courtroom. His testimony was given by television.

    So according to the blogs there was no evidence, no eye witness testimony, no DNA evidence. no finger prints that the victim was in the room. And now his testimony was not allowed to be cross examined by the defence.

    So it is just one mans word against another

    Something stinks in Victoria

  73. Tom R permalink
    March 1, 2019 1:01 pm

    reb or yomm?

  74. March 1, 2019 2:06 pm

    You’re terrible Tom R..

  75. March 1, 2019 2:07 pm

    https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js

  76. Neil of Sydney permalink
    March 1, 2019 3:02 pm

    This is Pells police interview. Does not sound like a guilty man. It is important because I am sure Priest sexual abuse does occur but not with this man. Sounds like he is paying for the sins of others. And it could mean that priests who did commit crimes will go unpunished

  77. Tom R permalink
    March 1, 2019 3:19 pm

    You’re terrible Tom R..

    Do I SOUND like a guilty man though reb?

  78. Tom R permalink
    March 1, 2019 3:21 pm

    It’s interesting that most of those pronouncing a guilty mans innocence were the same ones declaring an innocent womans guilt a few years back, even after a 20 year old trial, and a current witch hunt, cleared her

  79. Neil of Sydney permalink
    March 1, 2019 3:33 pm

    People are saying Pell is innocent because there is no evidence. Nothing. No DNA, fingerprints, eye witness testimony. Nothing.

    Just one mans word against another.

  80. Tom R permalink
    March 1, 2019 3:34 pm

    So what about Pell’s case is implausible, or even unusual? For anyone willing to look, it is almost humdrum, once compared to the vast, prolific compendium of international crime his institution has compiled.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/01/the-inconsistencies-of-george-pells-defenders-just-displays-their-power?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

  81. Neil of Sydney permalink
    March 1, 2019 3:48 pm

    TomR

    There is NO evidence. NONE. If I have read the blogs correctly it is just one mans word against another. Lots of people have been saying that in most cases it would have never made it to court.

    Your fearless leader Mr Shorten has an allegation against him made about what he did in the 1980’s. The Victorian police dropped the case because it was just he said she said

    This is important because one day someone may make an allegation against you/me. Allegations should not get a yes from a jury

  82. March 1, 2019 3:59 pm

    “Allegations should not get a yes from a jury”

    I know this is going out on a limb, but I’m just going to put it out there….

    Perhaps the jury heard some compelling evidence and testimony that was sufficient to find Pell guilty?

  83. Tom R permalink
    March 1, 2019 4:18 pm

    Perhaps the jury heard some compelling evidence and testimony that was sufficient to find Pell guilty?

    Not according to the rwdb’s who weren’t even at the trial 😉

  84. Walrus permalink
    March 1, 2019 4:31 pm

    “Perhaps the jury heard some compelling evidence and testimony that was sufficient to find Pell guilty?”

    The jury in the first trial heard the same evidence and they could not convict 10 to 2 (I think it was). Except I understand the victim’s evidence was “live” and was cross examined. In this trial not so.

  85. Neil of Sydney permalink
    March 1, 2019 4:38 pm

    “Perhaps the jury heard some compelling evidence and testimony that was sufficient to find Pell guilty?”

    OK I hope so

  86. TB Queensland permalink
    March 1, 2019 6:05 pm

    Long line of rats behind the SS LNP …

    If Parliament has three days left to sit … and a vote of no-confidence is won against the government … my understanding is that it should “go to the people”?

    ie Federal Election …

    I do hope so I’m sick of the spending on adverts for “the Australian Government’s” doing stuff in Queensland …

    Wastrels and incompetents …

  87. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 1, 2019 6:22 pm

    ALP MPs that retired in 2013 included-
    Greg Combet
    Simon Crean
    Craig Emerson
    Martin Ferguson
    Peter Garrett
    Steve Gibbons
    Julia Gillard
    Harrt Jenkins
    Robert McClelland
    Nicola Roxon
    Steven Smith

    It isn’t particularly unusual to have politicians retire.

  88. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 1, 2019 6:27 pm

    … and the conjecture about the Pell verdict certainly isn’t limited to catlicks and conservatives .

    I happened to be speaking to a reasonably well informed & connected legal aid solicitor who I know. They were surprised with the verdict. But they also had some observations about the defense strategy, which in hindsight wasn’t too sensational.

  89. TB Queensland permalink
    March 1, 2019 7:16 pm

    Ooops … acronyms should always be explained … eg SS …in the 1900’s the term referred to a Steam Ship … in the 21st Century in Australia it refers to Sinking Ship …

    eg … SS LNP

  90. TB Queensland permalink
    March 1, 2019 7:28 pm

    Late on Friday, Defence Industry Minister Steven Ciobo confirmed he was one of them, saying that after 17 years in parliament it was time for him to move on.

    Translation: I can now pick up my ridiculous pension … get a high paid job with the French … and laugh at the stupidity of Australians …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I happened to be speaking to a reasonably well informed & connected legal aid solicitor who I know.

    They were surprised with the verdict. But they also had some observations about the defense strategy, which in hindsight wasn’t too sensational.

    He/she sat through the trial? (re “well informed” ) Or was he/she informed by others like her/him at the lunch table/coffee machine …

    Surprised … why?

    Defense strategy … not exactly what I would have called it … more like defence stupidity …

  91. TB Queensland permalink
    March 1, 2019 7:30 pm

    Perhaps the jury heard some compelling evidence

    I think I said something was compelling up t’ thred … and just shook my head …

  92. TB Queensland permalink
    March 1, 2019 7:36 pm

    If someone in business resigns … particularly at a senior level … they leave the business QUICKLY … they can do much damage … or SFA (Sweet Fuck All)

    In my experience once they resign ensure they are off the premises within an hour … why should taxpayers be paying for people who will simply sit on their arses until May … they have no motivation to continue working for the Australian people …

    You don’t need an education to see that!

  93. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 1, 2019 8:48 pm

    In my experience once they resign ensure they are off the premises within an hour …

    Then your experience is certainly not typical of practice throughout industry. The only occasions where that might happen is if the individual is joining a competitor, in which case they are usually required to serve out the notice period but not perform work. Or if the resignation is under duress.

    People that resign usually do so with a slsp up farewell, good wishes and a gift.

    This comment is reminiscent of your 2 minute interview rule!

  94. TB Queensland permalink
    March 1, 2019 11:21 pm

    This comment is reminiscent of your 2 minute interview rule!

    Actually it was 10 seconds … nice to see you keep records … however inaccurate …

    Then your experience is certainly not typical of practice throughout industry.

    I know that’s probably why I was so successful …

    The only occasions where that might happen is if the individual is joining a competitor

    And you always know that I suppose?

    in which case they are usually required to serve out the notice period but not perform work

    Dear me! No wonder you barrack for the LNP …

  95. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 2, 2019 8:38 am

    Maybe the miners you’ve worked for in dusty, outback Hicksville, Qld had that practice TB.

    But when people resign in the civilised parts of the country, they are given a farewell and treated with respect. Even senior executives.

  96. TB Queensland permalink
    March 2, 2019 1:43 pm

    You really are an amusing read, ToM … and rather insulting to miners actually …

    You’ve spent most of your life in the CBD I take it? Silly me, you don’t answer questions …

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    This link is for NEEEEEEEEL (and a couple of others here)

    Please read every word not just a bit or skim …

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/02/cardinal-george-pells-conviction-the-questions-that-remain

  97. TB Queensland permalink
    March 2, 2019 1:45 pm

    But when people resign in the civilised parts of the country, they are given a farewell and treated with respect. Even senior executives.

    Yeah I noticed that with latest … NAB’s CEO and Managing Director … what heady and wonderful world you must live in …

    Chuckle … 🙂

  98. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 2, 2019 2:21 pm

    Perhaps TB you could make up your mind.

    On other occasions you complain about executives receiving huge payouts when they resign, getting slapped on the back and lots of congratulations- even if they have performed poorly.

    Now you say they’re unceremoniously marched out the door!!

    Which is it??

  99. Neil of Sydney permalink
    March 2, 2019 2:26 pm

    Tb

    I read your link but feel asleep half way down. The guy seems to be saying what I have been saying

    First paragraph said this

    “In the hundreds of cases Pell’s defence barrister Robert Richter has led, he has called the defendant to the stand only a handful of times. Things are slowly changing, but it is still rare for this to occur in abuse cases.”

    So Richter did what he normally does.

    I liked the second paragraph. Richter was not saying Pell was guilty re vanilla sex. Richter cannot say the jury were fools and the judge was an idiot after the judgement was ruled. The court made its ruling so Richter was trying to get the sentence reduced by saying yes what Pell did was bad but not as bad as people think. It was not an admission of guilt

  100. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 2, 2019 2:34 pm

    TBs opinion of “catlicks” is reasonably common, a jury that reflects the views of the community would have people that have similar opinions.

    Or do you think your opinions are unique TB?

  101. Tom R permalink
    March 2, 2019 4:55 pm

    From TB’s link

    It has been rumoured that the jurors in the mistrial were split 10-to-two in favour of Pell. Is this right?
    This is an unverified rumour with no credible source. There have been plenty of other rumours about the split in the mistrial, including that it was more even. The weight of the split makes no difference. The law requires a unanimous or 11-to-one verdict, and anything else results in a mistrial. The chief judge is not told of the split and he made it clear he did not want to know. Any juror who reveals the split breaks the law.

    Yet blot etal have been holding up to 10-2 split like means something, when, all it means, if true, is someone else has broken the law, and he is encouraging it by relaying it.

    Richter was not saying Pell was guilty re vanilla sex.

    You wonder why a thread dedicated to this case hasn’t discussed this already ………………… wait.

  102. Neil of Sydney permalink
    March 2, 2019 6:27 pm

    “The weight of the split makes no difference. The law requires a unanimous or 11-to-one verdict, and anything else results in a mistrial. ”

    So that means the first trial was at least 10-2 otherwise Pell would have been convicted. So what is your point?

  103. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 3, 2019 2:28 pm

    https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/man-sparks-debate-after-charging-obese-plane-passenger-180-for-taking-up-his-seat-space/news-story/432594710d89abdb93c91917ec95fa17

    Personally, I think fat people should ppay up if their fatness spills over into someone else’s seat. You get one seat per ticket, not one and a third because you’re fat!

    And people should be weighed with their luggage, excess baggage fees should apply when the total is over a limit, maybe 100kgs.

    If you’re fat, take less luggage.

  104. March 3, 2019 2:44 pm

    “people should be weighed with their luggage”

    Agreed. And if they’re overweight they should have a baggage label slapped onto their forehead and placed on the conveyor belt to be loaded into the hold along with their luggage.

  105. March 3, 2019 2:46 pm

    And another thing, as a diminutive individual, who takes us considerably less space than an overweight fat person, it seems only reasonable that I should be entitled to a discount for my business class fares, as I’m far less likely to ask for a second round of desserts or cheese.

  106. TB Queensland permalink
    March 3, 2019 3:01 pm

    as I’m far less likely to ask for a second round of desserts or cheese … but there is the third round of shiraz to consider … 🙂

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Perhaps TB you could make up your mind.

    LOL! You seem to be doing it for me … you do have it bad … hey! 🙂

  107. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 3, 2019 3:15 pm

    I’m far less likely to ask for a second round of desserts or cheese.

    But you make up for that with the extra few bottles of shiraz!

  108. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 3, 2019 3:15 pm

    I’m far less likely to ask for a second round of desserts or cheese.

    But you make up for that with the extra few bottles of shiraz!

  109. Warm`it`up`Teabag permalink
    March 3, 2019 4:12 pm

    Quite frankly l`m enjoying the ” plain vanilla child penetrating ” defenders have stepped so publicly into quicksand of their own making.

    ___

    Global cooling ; read it

  110. Warm`it`up`Teabag permalink
    March 3, 2019 4:18 pm

    xzxz/

    Quite frankly l`m enjoying the ” plain vanilla child penetrating ” defenders have stepped so publicly into quicksand of their own making.

    ___

    Global cooling ; read it

  111. Where`is`my`Teabag permalink
    March 3, 2019 5:11 pm

    Somebody seems to be a catlick and seems to be obsessed with tb`s opinion of catlicks, even tho the main game is a high ranked catlick pedofile in a dress is just convicted. Maybe our little catlick could understand that while the skyfairy continually lets its followers roam the neighborhoods of the world disrespecting other citizens spaces ; or fcuking about with kids in the dark corners and back rooms of skyfairy club ; then you really can`t blame citizens for having a low opinion of catlicks and skyfairy.

  112. Tom R permalink
    March 3, 2019 8:02 pm

    Personally, I think fat people should ppay up if their fatness spills over into someone else’s seat.

    Great, soon they’ll be charging for Awesomeness, which will see me penniless as my Awesomeness spills over into everyone else’s blandness

  113. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 3, 2019 8:13 pm

    The other thing that bugs me on a flight is when people talk to me!* So Awesomeness usually goes unnoticed unless you speak, so save some cash and don’t say anything!!

    (* Which is probably understandable because I’m also Awesome)

  114. Tom R permalink
    March 3, 2019 9:30 pm

    You underestimate Awesomeness yomm. Above Averageness is only recognisable through speech, but Awesomeness is as much an Aura as anything.

    Something you would only know if you were TRULY Awesome.

    As someone who is TRULY Awesome, I prefer to let my Aura do the talking

  115. Tom R permalink
    March 4, 2019 9:15 am

    What a fabulous record

    Coalition doubles all government debt since Federation in just under six years

    https://www.michaelwest.com.au/coalition-doubles-all-government-debt-since-federation-in-just-under-six-years/

  116. Neil of Sydney permalink
    March 4, 2019 9:24 am

    In 2007 NET debt was minus $40B ie less than zero. Was $209B in 2013. Increase of $249B under Labor. $349B now. Increase of $140B under Coalition.

    But after creating the runaway debt truck in govt, Labor now in Opposition block any attempts to get the budget back to surplus.

    ALP and their supporters are traitors to Australia and do not care about people

  117. Tom R permalink
    March 4, 2019 10:14 am

    In Julia Gillard’s last full financial year, 2012-13, total debt taken on was just $23.4 billion. This was set to fall steadily thereafter. Before the 2013 election, the heads of Treasury and Finance projected the budget to be in surplus in 2015-16, with debt to peak that year before declining.

    The Coalition then changed Labor’s settings on both revenue and expenditure and blew out the debt further and further.

    In its first year, the Coalition added a thumping $62.1 billion. That was followed in 2014-15 by $49.3 billion. Another $51.7 billion was borrowed in 2015-16, surpassed by a staggering $80.6 billion in 2016-17.

    By April 2017, the Turnbull Government had doubled the debt Labor took under six years to accumulate – through the worst global recession in 80 years – $213.2 billion.

  118. Neil of Sydney permalink
    March 4, 2019 10:34 am

    Swans last 2013 budget was a $48B deficit. Treasury forecasts are usually wrong. Swans 2012 budget was forecast to be a surplus. It was in deficit

    Coalition added $62.1B of debt in its first year? How? Debt cannot increase faster than the budget deficit.

    Alan Austin is a liar, fraud, false prophet and they are his good points

  119. Tom R permalink
    March 4, 2019 10:39 am

  120. Tom R permalink
    March 4, 2019 2:31 pm

    For nearly 20 years, the Australian Catholic Church’s response to child sexual abuse was shaped by a child molester.

    https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/law-crime/2019/03/01/george-pells-conviction/15513984677566?cb=1551645243

    Aided and abetted by the highest people in the liberal party it should not be forgotten

  121. TB Queensland permalink
    March 4, 2019 7:20 pm

    Been busy here I see … pretty time poor myself … I’m editing a video for a friend who turned 90 last Monday … organising for another houseboat trip next week, Great Sandy Strait out of Tin Can Bay – houseboats pretty ordinary but the fishing/crabbing’s usually good – and a lovely place to spend a week … and housekeeping son’s house while a tiler is working …

  122. TB Queensland permalink
    March 4, 2019 7:32 pm

    WOW! Brilliant article and well written … by the wife of an abuse victim …

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/04/andrew-bolt-please-stop-implying-that-you-know-all-the-facts-about-george-pell

  123. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 4, 2019 8:05 pm

    The appeal will be interesting and if the jury contained a couple with your (fairly commonly held) views TB, there would have been an anti catlick orientation

  124. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 4, 2019 8:30 pm

    By the way, I’ve commented in the past that I think the recruitment pool for the police are the laziest bullies among school leavers, and there is nothing I’ve experienced or observed over the years to change that view.

    Lazy racist/bigoted bullies – your local police station is full of them.

    I get tired of the media fawning over police and saying what a great job they do.

    Now we find that our “thin blue line” used a gossiping defence barrister, acting against the interests of her clients, to get convictions.

    Yes TB, we should have every confidence in the administration of justice.

  125. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 4, 2019 9:10 pm

    Been busy here I see … pretty time poor myself … 

    I’m mainly alternating between the surf and the cafe that overlooks the surf.

    Unfortunately today I’m in the city. But back to the coast on Wednesday! Every day is a Saturday and every night is a Friday night!

  126. Warmy`Warmy`Teabag permalink
    March 5, 2019 7:56 am

    Joshy already has an indy challenging in kooyong ; now there is two ; julian burnside is also running. Joshy in trouble yomm?

    ___

    read the damn global cooling dummy(s) https://t.co/2Lg4ADryv8

  127. Tom R permalink
    March 5, 2019 12:14 pm

    your local [insert choice here] is full of them.

    Maybe I’m just getting old (and grumpier) 😦

    WOW! Brilliant article and well written … by the wife of an abuse victim …

    It’s quite horrifying the propaganda being sprouted, to protect a convicted pedophile

  128. TB Queensland permalink
    March 5, 2019 7:44 pm

    Why are so many uni educated professionals – supposedly intellectually bright – often so verbally stupid …

    Mr Richter issued an apology the following day, saying he had spent a sleepless night reflecting on the “terrible choice of phrase”.

    He referred to the case as a “long and stressful process”.

    “The seriousness of the crime was acknowledged at the outset by the concession that it merited imprisonment,” the apology read.

    “In seeking to mitigate sentence, I used a wholly inappropriate phrase for which I apologise profusely to all who interpreted it in a way it was never intended.

    “It was in no way meant to belittle or minimise the suffering and hurt of victims of sex abuse, and in retrospect I can see why it caused great offence to many.”

    https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/courts-law/i-am-angry-pells-key-defence-barrister-robert-richter-quits/news-story/4cfa8039c4ae19720c1f890310b04cd3

    Richter would make a good politician … judging by his apology!

    Then again the majority of Federal politicians are lawyers of one kind or another … and lots of “believers” too …

    Watched part of Morisscammer’s speech today … desperate and dumb …

  129. TB Queensland permalink
    March 5, 2019 9:50 pm

    And another case that supports my comments above …

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/05/australian-catholic-university-staff-want-greg-craven-disciplined-over-pell-support

    Thick as fkn bricks … many ACU students are not catholics and have no intention of being converted … (that is only reserved for small school children it seems – obviously more vulnerable and malleable …)

    The catholic monster really is a sickening mess … like most organised religions primarily controlling women and children …

  130. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 6, 2019 7:50 am

    There’s a first!! TB refers to “catholics” and not “catlicks”!

  131. Tom R permalink
    March 6, 2019 9:01 am

    A nice take down of bolt and his desperate attempts to protect a pedophile

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/04/andrew-bolt-please-stop-implying-that-you-know-all-the-facts-about-george-pell

    It’s a sad state of affairs when the nations largest media company employs a convicted racist to help protect a convicted pedophile, but that’s Australia, 2019

  132. TB Queensland permalink
    March 6, 2019 9:11 am

    There’s a first!! TB refers to “catholics” and not “catlicks”!

    Your comprehension is atrocious, ToM, I’ve been writing catholics for some time now … easy to check above … BTW only you and Wally (I’m Not A Catholic but ..) objected to catliks …

    (I suspect it was just another attempt at playing the man not the ball, anyway)

    But look what I happened upon just a second or two ago …

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/06/if-we-reject-gender-discrimination-in-every-other-arena-why-do-we-accept-it-in-religion

    Like I say, “most” folk usually catch up eventually …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    TR … TB Queensland permalink
    March 4, 2019 7:32 pm

    Obviously agree with you … 🙂

  133. Tom R permalink
    March 6, 2019 9:44 am

    Obviously agree with you

    Doesn’t everybody here? 🙂

  134. TB Queensland permalink
    March 6, 2019 9:51 am

    LOL!

    You should get out more (er, less?)

  135. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 6, 2019 9:57 am

    BTW only you and Wally (I’m Not A Catholic but ..) objected to catliks …

    I’ve always said that I think it is unsatisfactory to ridicule the sincerely held spiritual beliefs of people. But that’s often what you default to TB. So no need to get all techy when this is pointed out.

  136. Tom R permalink
    March 6, 2019 10:37 am

    the sincerely held spiritual beliefs of people

    Perhaps once you realise that these “sincerely held spiritual beliefs” have helped enable pedophiles (amongst other sins) for years, you may understand the source of ridicule

  137. TB Queensland permalink
    March 6, 2019 10:55 am

    So no need to get all techy when this is pointed out.

    You obviously remember I build computers and play with electronics … however …

    … I think you meant “tetchy” …

    I’m not tetchy at all …

    I think it is unsatisfactory to ridicule the sincerely held spiritual beliefs of people

    Now that’s tetchy … and FYI “those sincerely held spiritual beliefs” you defend so vehemently have personally caused me more more harm than good over the years …

    And another thing! I don’t “ridicule” organised religions … but I do point out their failings … nor is it a default on my part … the fault (pun intended) is self inflicted by the churches, mosques, lodges, temples and tabernacles and the farty old bastards that control them … and the simpletons that allow them to operate …

    Defend them all you want … but you won’t change my opinion of them until they change their modus operandi!

    And I don’t GAFF if you think its “unsatisfactory” … evil exists etc …

  138. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 6, 2019 10:56 am

    Obviously there’s no problem discussing religion, it’s the ridicule that I’ve objected to.

    And I’ve previously explained my reasons for this, at lenght.

  139. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 6, 2019 10:58 am

    I don’t “ridicule” organised religions … 

    You must use a different definition of “ridicule ” to me

  140. TB Queensland permalink
    March 6, 2019 11:01 am

    http://www.safeshare.tv/w/cqjiYhtiXs

    Just arrived in my inbox

    Queen Beatrix of The Netherlands attended a concert in the capital, Amsterdam.

    The Guest Conductor, who just happens to be Muslim, proceeded to give
    the Queen a lecture on the “beauty” of Islam.

    The entire orchestra got up and walked out, refusing to be associated
    with someone lecturing their Queen.

  141. TB Queensland permalink
    March 6, 2019 11:09 am

    You must use a different definition of “ridicule ” to me …

    I’m happy with this …

    Noun: the subjection of someone or something to contemptuous and dismissive language or behaviour.

    Verb: subject to contemptuous and dismissive language or behaviour.

    “his theory was ridiculed and dismissed”

    If you deserve, you it wear it … or you won’t change what you are doing …

    Explain to me how you could possibly defend organised religion …?

    Time for you to answer a question …

  142. Keep`Snorting`Teabag permalink
    March 6, 2019 11:24 am

    It is always a tad weak being concerned ; more for hurt skyfairy feelings ; and not the actual health and welfare of citizens.

    ____

    How does your new greenz option julian burnside stack up yomm?

  143. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 6, 2019 11:59 am

    TB, I don’t recall that I’ve ever defended organised religion. I’ve objected to the ridicle of it.

    I’ve also pointed out that generalisations about people of a faith, or religion is bigotry

  144. TB Queensland permalink
    March 6, 2019 1:13 pm

    Let’s get something straight … if you don’t defend … but object … then I don’t ridicule* … I object … to organised religions’ mysoginy, hypocrisy, brainwashing children, deceit, sexual proclivities, lies, cheating and arrogance … just to name a few …

    I don’t expect anyone to preach agnosticism (its actually a personal choice) but I would expect trained non religious counsellors in public schools … compared say to chaplains … who make a meal of easter and christmas at our local school – to the point of parental complaints …

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/chaplain

    And I object to the religious dabbling in “my” non-secular society’s laws, governance and development … ’cause I don’t dabble in theirs!

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/06/armidale-bishop-directs-catholic-schools-to-stop-asking-priests-for-working-with-children-checks

    Does NSW have an equivalent to Qld’s Bluecard System?

    https://www.bluecard.qld.gov.au/about.html

  145. TB Queensland permalink
    March 6, 2019 1:16 pm

    I’ve also pointed out that generalisations about people of a faith, or religion is bigotry

    Can you prove that?

  146. TB Queensland permalink
    March 6, 2019 1:18 pm

    And before you attempt to wheedle … I don’t generalise … I provide reasons for my comments … you may generalise … ie pointed out … to whose “standard”?

  147. TB Queensland permalink
    March 6, 2019 1:22 pm

    Seems the Treasury is now ridiculing the LNP now …

    The Federal Government’s sustained assault on Labor’s housing policies has been blunted by the revelation Treasury slapped it down for overblowing the argument.

    In January, acting Treasurer Kelly O’Dwyer asked officials from the department to fact check the idea that Labor’s policies would lead to a fall in property prices.

    In emails obtained by the ABC, Treasury wrote back, saying the Government’s claims were “not consistent” with its advice.

    “We did not say that the proposed policies ‘will’ reduce house prices. We said that they ‘could’ put downward pressure on house prices in the short term, depending on what else was going on in the market at the time, but in the long term they were unlikely to have much impact,” the department said.

    https://www.news.com.au/finance/real-estate/caught-redhanded-treasury-slaps-down-government-on-negative-gearing/news-story/14af9dff8c06bcebef3271f8bba2a1d6

  148. TB Queensland permalink
    March 6, 2019 1:25 pm

    And more ridicule …

    Negative gearing was effectively axed for future rental property investors between July 1985 and 1987.

    During this time rents increased notably in Sydney and Perth.

    But according to ABC Fact Check, this cannot be blamed solely on negative gearing because prices remained flat in Melbourne during this time and rents actually fell in Adelaide and Brisbane.

    What made a difference in Sydney and Perth, was that there already was a shortage of rental properties in these cities at the time negative gearing was removed, so prices were already on the rise.

    Other factors that contributed to higher rents overall was the share market boom of the mid-1980s that made investing in shares a good alternative to property investment.

    Interest rates were also high (more than 15 per cent) and this made buying a property more expensive. In contrast interest rates today are at record lows.

    https://www.news.com.au/finance/real-estate/what-happened-last-time-we-messed-with-housing/news-story/ad060b7d2557bd382f4bba5d1fa9ca98

  149. Tom R permalink
    March 6, 2019 1:51 pm

    oh, did someone mention recession?

    Australia’s economy continued to slow in the December quarter. And without population growth, the economy went backwards.

    https://www.businessinsider.com.au/australia-economy-q4-gdp-2019-3

    You might just get what you wish for.

    Thank god for all those immigrants streaming in on dodgy visas

  150. TB Queensland permalink
    March 6, 2019 2:08 pm

    There are none so blind that cannot see, TR … 😉

  151. TB Queensland permalink
    March 6, 2019 2:16 pm

    What planet do these people live on … and what do they think we are … fkn morons?

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/06/deal-huge-coal-fired-power-plant-hunter-hong-kong

    Chines STATE owned company in partnership with an Australian company worth $25,000 owned by an Aussie businessman … Frank Cavasinni … sounds like miniature Clive Palmer on the interwebby pages …

  152. TB Queensland permalink
    March 6, 2019 2:20 pm

    Thank god for all those immigrants streaming in on dodgy visas

    You mean the 60,000+ illegal immigrants that came by boat plane this year?

    Wait till the Chinese cruise ships start turning up at the Chinese wharf in Darwin … I’d be checking out military duffle bags … oh, is Customs manned by Chinese now?

  153. Neil of Sydney permalink
    March 6, 2019 6:31 pm

    ‘There are none so blind that cannot see, TR …’

    Agreed. The current unemployment rate is lower than any time under hawke/keating. all labor govts trash the budget. The coalition has not been able to fix the budget mess Rudd/swan created but they were our only hope. We are doomed if Labor gets back in

  154. TB Queensland permalink
    March 6, 2019 7:39 pm

    1. An hour a week is not employed! And Hawke/Keating were around before THREE current generations were born!

    2. In six years our debt has doubled … remember debt and deficit?

    3. You always conveniently “forget” the impact of the GFC on Australia’s economy – in fact the WORLD economy … because of the rampant profit seeking, deceit, theft and cheating particularly of USA banks … a path that Australia’s banks/lending institutions happily continue despite a Royal Commission.

    4. The LNP (not sure its a coalition anymore) has not been able to fix anything all they have done is destroy the most important river system in the country, ignore the science of climate change to the detriment of our planet and our country, ripped funding from the sick, the elderly the poor and the young, destroyed peoples lives with the Centrelink debacle, treated the poor and desperate as perpetrators of their own poverty … and made utter twits of themselves knifing TWO Prime Ministers to elect a failed marketing manager … who thinks he’s the next messiah …

    5. The End is Nigh – pray and give sacrifice … 🙂

  155. Neil of Sydney permalink
    March 6, 2019 8:12 pm

    an hour/week as a definition of employment has been used in Australia since 1966. it is an international definition used in all Oecd countries

    net debt was approx minus $40b in 2007 ie less than zero and was approx. $210B in 2013. Increase of $250B under Rudd/SWan. Approx $350B now. increase of $140B under coalition

    Spending cuts will get the budget back into surplus. But the traitorous ALP and their evil supporters block any attempt to get the budget back into surplus

  156. TB Queensland permalink
    March 6, 2019 8:44 pm

    How to waste $1.4 billion of taxpayers (our) hard earned just to try to win an election … repeat … BILLION DOLLARS …

    Politicking at its worst! This time I hope Aussies will see just what this !

    Note: Equipment photos do not make a hospital …

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/06/scott-morrison-leads-pr-sortie-to-reopened-christmas-island

  157. TB Queensland permalink
    March 6, 2019 8:56 pm

    Keep bleating NEEEEEL … your heading towards DOOM!

    >While one hour of work is acknowledged as being insufficient to survive on, it is also argued that all work, no matter how small an amount, contributes to the economy. Using the parameter of ‘one hour or more’ consistently across countries allows employment figures to be compared internationally.

    While it is STATISTICALLY “employed” it is NOT employed in the real world … here’s a big clue …

    insufficient to survive

    Spending cuts will get the budget back into surplus.

    Who gets the cuts – the poor, the old, the young, the sick, the kids … WE REMEMBER THE 2014 BUDGET … now being traded back by the Prime Preacher … to cut them again …

    OR the Elites start paying taxes … multinationals, millionaires, sport people, religions … politicians! CEO wages capped … back to 45 cents in the dollar …

    The mining boom is over …

    And higher wages!

  158. TB Queensland permalink
    March 6, 2019 10:25 pm

    Agree ToM … 45 years was enough for me …

    If the rich and privileged shared and paid tax …

  159. Neil of Sydney permalink
    March 7, 2019 8:03 am

    “The mining boom is over … ”

    Not really. Commodity prices are still higher than any time under Howard

    https://www.rba.gov.au/chart-pack/commodity-prices.html

  160. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 7, 2019 8:44 am

    I think there is plenty of efficiency available in the public sector for budget savings, I’m not attracted to tax increases.

    That’s a lefty copout in my view.

  161. Tom R permalink
    March 7, 2019 9:14 am

    I think there is plenty of efficiency available in the public sector for budget savings,

    You’ve been saying that for years. Since then, Labor applied numerous ‘efficiency dividends. Then the libs cut them further, without any consioderations

    We now have a system that is under resourced, and barely able to cope with demand.

    And you think it’s “lefty copout”?

  162. Tom R permalink
    March 7, 2019 9:15 am

    Barny, barny, come out to play

    Hundreds of billions of litres of water is missing from the Murray-Darling Basin, according to a new report.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-06/billions-of-litres-of-water-missing-from-murray-darling-basin/10873782

    Seems it’s not just the economy the libs can destroy

  163. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 7, 2019 9:43 am

    Yes, I have been making that point about public sector efficiency for years.

    The inefficiency isn’t the fault of the teachers, nurses etc in the system. The problem is the way the public sector is structured. It is top heavy with non value adding administration .

    Public organisations are overburdened with shared responsibilities and support services that don’t exist in the private sector.

    Public sector management seem incapable of working with lean administration and default to cutting direct services when implementing budget reductions.

  164. Tom R permalink
    March 7, 2019 10:01 am

    It is top heavy with non value adding administration .

    ALL big organisations are. You would be stretched to find one, private or public, that isn’t

    Public sector management seem incapable of working with lean administration

    Public sectors have more regulations to adhere to, this will lead to heavier oversight.

    default to cutting direct services when implementing budget reductions.

    I think you will find that, especially these days, there just isn’t anything LEFT to cut

    After eight years of being beaten down by austerity, the once-unacceptable has now been normalised. The relentless attrition upon adults’ and children’s services, including the loss of 70,000 local authority adult care jobs since 2009, has become framed as merely the annual round of difficult decisions, rather than the withdrawal of essential services for the most vulnerable. Even the shocking realisation that austerity is shortening lives has caused barely a ripple.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/01/public-sector-workers-pummelled-austerity-scandal

  165. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 7, 2019 10:20 am

    I think if you compare similar organisations you’ll get the picture.

    Compare the (pro rata) size of the HR or Finance departments in the ABC to a private media organisation or the size of amnin in a private hospital to a public one.

    Yes. Part of the problem are the public sector regulations, and that’s often due to political arse covering.

    The system is inefficient and the senior management of the public service and the political structures appear to be incapable of dealing with it.

  166. Tom R permalink
    March 7, 2019 10:31 am

    Compare the (pro rata) size

    You cannot

    As things get larger, so too does their administration, exponentially

    see large corporations

    THEN add in public sector regulations on top of that

    The inefficiencies lie in political decisions, not the day to day running of the system, which from all reports are quite efficient

    See barnies stupid move of APVMA from Canberra into his own electorate. It will take years to rebuild that organisation once Labor move it back

    Same with the ATO after the libs gutted it

  167. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 7, 2019 11:20 am

    It is reasonable to compare Nine/Fairfax with the ABC. I had a look at the organisations a while ago, there is nothing in relative size that can explain the HUGE and inefficient overhead costs of the ABC (for example)

  168. Tom R permalink
    March 7, 2019 11:48 am

    It is reasonable to compare Nine/Fairfax with the ABC

    No it isn’t

    The ABC does more than television programs/news

    It also (until recently) provided coverage across the entirety of the continent (and beyond)

    But, keep using the apple/oranges comparisons 😉

  169. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 7, 2019 12:02 pm

    Possibly requiring more people in television production, but no reason for exponentially more in HR, Finance etc.

    The overheads are not justified, and the duplication requires more coordination (cost) and diffuses management accountability

    The blurred accountability is highly inefficient abd stymies innovation.

  170. Tom R permalink
    March 7, 2019 12:02 pm

    I mean, is nine about to begin digitising the countries historical content?

  171. Weather`Watch`Teabag permalink
    March 7, 2019 12:27 pm

    By the hysteria it looks like ol`trainy trainy read somebody`s global cooling link (-:

    ____

    lt is always funny to see those that defend catlick skyfairy pedofiling are also the same folk that rabidly dislike my abc and are just too dumb to change the channel if they don`t like what is on. lnstead they seem to watch it incessantly.

    ____

    ” generalisations about people of a faith, or religion ” that cannot separate skyfairy from other `spaces` and act together generally in a pre-defined, pre-approved lunacy is NOT bigotry _ it is an addiction to their brand of skyfairyDust of which they snort deeply

  172. Tom R permalink
    March 7, 2019 12:27 pm

    exponentially more in HR, Finance etc.

    You got data to back that up?

    I mean, we go a lot on your feelpinions, which, haven’t always been … as accurate as described 😉

    The blurred accountability

    Have you heard of a little thing called Senate Estimates?

  173. Tom R permalink
    March 7, 2019 12:29 pm

    By the hysteria it looks like ol`trainy trainy read somebody`s global cooling link

    Who, what, where, when and why are you talking about?

  174. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 7, 2019 12:30 pm

    What percentage of their budget does that involve?

    But really, look at the overhead and support structure of the ABC. And consider that they’re not as inefficient as most other public sector organisations.

  175. Tom R permalink
    March 7, 2019 1:06 pm

    And consider that they’re not as inefficient as most other public sector organisations.

    Hang on, I thought ‘Public services” (plural) were inefficient?

    Is ABC just the worst of a bad lot?

    On your say so?

    Like I said yomm, perhaps some figures would be appropriate at this stage?

    Or are you fighting for the title?

  176. Know`Collusion`Teabag permalink
    March 7, 2019 1:29 pm

    It ” is reasonable to compare Nine/Fairfax with the ABC.” @haw, haw, haw, haw, haw, Tonights stupidity hour is broadcast `live` from kooyong. Featuring selective readings from the junior managers handbook. Please welcome our host.

  177. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 7, 2019 2:44 pm

    Yes, the public sector is inefficient but it isn’t entirely the fault of public servants.

    There’s no point in asking nurses and teachers to do more. They are generally dedicated and do their best… though police are lazy, intolerant bullies.

    The public service is inefficient because of the political and management culture.
    ——
    As I said, I looked at the relative structures of the ABC and private media a while ago. It indicated that the ABC has far more non value adding overheads.

    All the information is publicly available but not from a single source. So you’re welcome to do the research yourself!

  178. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 7, 2019 2:44 pm

    Yes, the public sector is inefficient but it isn’t entirely the fault of public servants.

    There’s no point in asking nurses and teachers to do more. They are generally dedicated and do their best… though police are lazy, intolerant bullies.

    The public service is inefficient because of the political and management culture.
    ——
    As I said, I looked at the relative structures of the ABC and private media a while ago. It indicated that the ABC has far more non value adding overheads.

    All the information is publicly available but not from a single source. So you’re welcome to do the research yourself!

  179. Tom R permalink
    March 7, 2019 3:24 pm

    It indicated that the ABC has far more non value adding overheads.

    eg …………………

    Of course, there are the political ineffeciancies, it’s the nature of a democracy. we could become a tyranny, simply to save on your alleged overuse of cream biscuits, but that sems extreme.

    Yes, you THINK they are inefficient, but don’t supply any idea of where.

    I provided examples of public services being cut below operating costs, and they still struggle on, with the expected loss of services.

    why not just get a hashtag #publicservicesux and start whinging about it on a social medias site. Examples aren’t required there

  180. TB Queensland permalink
    March 7, 2019 4:38 pm

    As I said, I looked at the relative structures of the ABC and private media a while ago. It indicated that the ABC has far more non value adding overheads.

    I looked at … just what does that “mean”? I look at your comments every day and think “this is just a non value adding overhead …

    And I love this …

    All the information is publicly available but not from a single source. So you’re welcome to do the research yourself!

    But you’ve done the research we would like to see the data that stimulated your opinions …

    You’re not wheedling again?

    Oh, I see TR beat me to it … odd that we saw the same thing …

  181. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 7, 2019 4:52 pm

    ABC organisation structure is available on the web site. Data and structure re public companies is also publc

    I looked at the reports a while ago, you’re welcome to do the same. Let me know what you find.

  182. Walrus permalink
    March 7, 2019 5:11 pm

    “Yes, you THINK they are inefficient, but don’t supply any idea of where.”

    1) Sydney City HQ is at Ultimo whichj is absolutely prime real estate. This could easily be sold off at a huge profit and the entire HQ moved to the cheaper geographic centre of the City at Parramatta freeing up capital that could then be returned to Fed Government to assist in construction of schools, hospitals etc.

    2) Melbourne HQ Ditto

    3) Brisbane HQ Ditto

    Plus the rest of the Capitals…………..

    All of these represent the application of capital on an inefficient basis

  183. TB Queensland permalink
    March 7, 2019 5:43 pm

    All of these represent the application of capital on an inefficient basis

    I’m you may be correct, Wally … but …

    The discussion here is that ToM “looked at” some data and compared Nine/Fairfax with the ABC … and then made some assumptions … all I’m asking (and I believe TR is too) is which data was compared and how did ToM reach those assumptions … with a vast amount of data publicly available … “do the same” is not an answer …

    I see a glimmer of Peter’s Principle here somewhere …

  184. TB Queensland permalink
    March 7, 2019 5:47 pm

    Wally, I just checked and as I suspected all the commercial channels HQs (10 9 7) are listed at Mt Coot-tha … where ALL the stations are located … and studios

  185. Know`Collusion`Teabag permalink
    March 7, 2019 5:48 pm

    We now cross `live` to palm beach for equal stupidity ” could easily be sold off at a huge profit and the entire HQ moved ” _ lts called balance.

  186. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 7, 2019 5:51 pm

    If you don’t use information to provide comments TB, what do you use?

    By the way, if I recall, your business experience is in the mining industry. But that doesn’t seem to prevent you from commenting on any sector.

  187. TB Queensland permalink
    March 7, 2019 5:54 pm

    Apologies – interruption – ABC is in Grey St South Brisbane (used to be at Toowong – you may recall the cancer issues) … it would makes sense to shift the ABC to Mt Coot-tha as well …

    I spent a bit of time (working/performing in the studios in the 60’s 70’s and 80’s at ABC, 9 and 10 … last was in 1992, editing a couple of videos I was making we used the editing console after 9 News had finished (we finished 3/4 am – those were the days … that’s where I met John Clarke. RIP)

  188. TB Queensland permalink
    March 7, 2019 5:59 pm

    By the way, if I recall, your business experience is in the mining industry.

    Another assumption … if you go back a decade I gave a full resume here (silly me) … (a bit more than mining) … and not just in Oz …

  189. Tom R permalink
    March 7, 2019 7:13 pm

    Let me know what you find.

    I found the opposite of your conclusion 😉

    Sydney City HQ is at Ultimo whichj is absolutely prime real estate.

    Why would that be? Ease of access perhaps. Centrally located?

    Also looks good on the books one would think. 😉

    Or should they move it to Armidale?

  190. Tom R permalink
    March 7, 2019 7:22 pm

    btw, Adelaides ABC is outside the center, in Collinswood (what’s left of it)

  191. TB Queensland permalink
    March 7, 2019 7:53 pm

    By the way, if I recall, your business experience is in the mining industry.

    And I have no idea what your business experience is – butcher, baker, candlestick maker …?

    So we can both BS have opinions to our hearts content … and or provide details to consolidate our opinions …

  192. Know`Collusion`Teabag permalink
    March 7, 2019 8:17 pm

    lt really doesn`t matter what you know who is regurgitating from the ipa junior managers handbook as TC is 100% correct with apples/oranges. The taxagents crap about moving to parramatta is nonsense, try nearly penrith, beyond mt druit or beyond blacktown. By the time you add the costs of land, construction, additional mobile broadcast trucks, helicopter/s there would be a loss. This would then triple the annual running cost sending most of the trucks back to the center of jonestown to report on courts, biz etc.

  193. TB Queensland permalink
    March 7, 2019 8:29 pm

    tebagz has a double in akowtin/biznis too, see!

  194. Walrus permalink
    March 8, 2019 8:49 am

    “Whom the gods would destroy they first make mad”

    – Prometheus, in Henry Wadsworth Longfellow’

    Turnbull :”Basically you could argue that their concern was not that I would lose the election but rather that I would win it,”

    Interviewer :”Are you telling me your own party didn’t want you to win the next election, that’s not credible is it?”

    – a clearly stunned Neil asked.

    https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/peculiarly-australian-form-of-madness-turnbull-dumps-on-libs-in-bbc-interview-20190307-p512la.html

  195. Tom R permalink
    March 8, 2019 9:01 am

    lol wally, as another learned person said

  196. Tom R permalink
    March 8, 2019 9:17 am

    We’re going backwards, for the first time in 13 years

    https://theconversation.com/vital-signs-australias-sudden-ultra-low-economic-growth-ought-not-to-have-come-as-surprise-113026

    It’s not like we had any major economic tidal waves in the intervening years though, is it?

  197. Tom R permalink
    March 8, 2019 10:23 am

  198. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 8, 2019 10:35 am

    Yes. With the housing market in free fall, is this the time to implement policies that are intended to further reduce demand/prices?

  199. Tom R permalink
    March 8, 2019 10:54 am

    I suppose yor solution is the largess it with more taxpayer dollars?

  200. TB Queensland permalink
    March 8, 2019 12:45 pm

    Yes. With the housing market in free fall, is this the time to implement policies that are intended to further reduce demand/prices?

    And which policies are those, ToM?

  201. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 8, 2019 1:22 pm

    It’s a simple question, the ALP guarantees that it will change negative gearing to reduce demand for housing, with the intention of making housing cheaper.

    Given that the price of housing is already falling, is the ALP policy such a great idea in this market?

    I think it is likely to exacerbate the fall in the market.

  202. TB Queensland permalink
    March 8, 2019 1:35 pm

    I’d just like to take the time to RIDICULE the hypocrisy of the catholic church – especially in France … a worldwide scourge …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    <I think it is likely to exacerbate the fall in the market.

    I don’t … and I have treasury research to prove it won’t …

    Second question … just which political party do you work for?

    In fact the best option is to increase the amount of NG but apply it only to first home buyers …

    If memory serves me correctly first home buyers in Canada can claim all their interest cost as a tax exemption …

  203. Tom R permalink
    March 8, 2019 2:01 pm

    to reduce demand for housing

    I think you will find it is reduce the taxpayer subsidy of rental empires. 😉

    Pretty sure the housing will be bought, but perhaps by homeowners, not landlords?

    It’s a simple question, is yor solution to largess it with more taxpayer dollars?

  204. Tom R permalink
    March 8, 2019 2:03 pm

    Turnbull: “40 Newspoll Losses And 5 By-election Defeats Convinced Me I Would Win”

    http://situationtheatre.com/news-fuse/losses-convinced-me-i-would-win

  205. Tom R permalink
    March 8, 2019 2:13 pm

    Turns out, abbott wasn’t the worst for women. morrison has lowered the bar

    “”We want everybody to do better, and we want to see the rise of women in this country to be accelerated to ensure that their overall place is maintained.””

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/ginarushton/scott-morrison-international-womens-day

  206. TB Queensland permalink
    March 8, 2019 2:32 pm

    TR, the first part of that quote … and me squinting at the screen this morning!

    “See, we’re not about setting Australians against each other, trying to push some down to lift others up,” he said.
    Politics in Australia has a woman problem – and it’s time it stopped
    Sarah Hanson-Young
    Read more

    “That is an absolutely liberal value, that you don’t push some people down to lift some people up. And that is true about gender equality too.

    “We want to see women rise. But we don’t want to see women rise only on the basis of others doing worse.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Back to NG – to reduce demand for housing

    I meant to comment on that remark too,TR … when I studied economics (101) we were told in no uncertain terms that the two main markers for the economy are new car sales and building approvals … I doubt any political party would want to reduce the demand for housing or car sales … but removing a policy that prevents first home buyers from purchasing a home while their taxes support investment junkies would be applauded by more than a few …

    Seems people too easily forget that turnover is often far more profitable than a “big” sale … and investors sitting on properties doesn’t help the real estate or building industry … oddly enough (hadn’t realised it till now) most vehicles have a “life” of seven years before they start needing serious repairs … and oddly enough statistically people move home every seven years … not everyone of course – still here after 35 years …

  207. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 8, 2019 4:33 pm

    If you reduce the attractiveness of housing as an investment, even your “economics 101” must lead you to understand that that there is an effect on demand. A reduction.

    The ALP has sold this as an affordablily policy, not a revenue measure.

  208. Tom R permalink
    March 8, 2019 5:35 pm

    Making something more affordable doesn’t reduce demand for something yomm, in fact it can increase demand, as more people are able to afford it

    102

  209. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 8, 2019 6:45 pm

    Making something more affordable means the cost changes, and prices are already falling.

  210. Tom R permalink
    March 8, 2019 7:39 pm

    Prices SHOULD fall, they are unsustainable.

    An economy that relies on inflated housing costs deserves to fall.

    But you said “demand”, and when it comes to housing, “demand” is always there

  211. TB Queensland permalink
    March 8, 2019 8:51 pm

    If you reduce the attractiveness of housing as an investment

    If you reduce a home to an investment you deprive people who live in a society and develop an economy – somewhere safe to live … Maslow 101 …

    The ALP has sold this as an affordablily policy, not a revenue measure.

    You obviously don’t understand – Motivation 101 … ownership of your life …

    Making something more affordable means the cost changes, and prices are already falling.

    No it doesn’t you obviously don’t understand turnover 101 …

    Making something more affordable means the cost changes, and prices are already falling.

    And that’s without any changes to the present status quo …

    You obviously don’t understand Boom and Bust Theory 101 … a capitalist “phenomena” (apparently) … haven’t we just watched a BOOM in real estate? …

    Guess what happens next … ?

    I was also taught that in a capitalist economy we should aim for a 10% increase in profit each year … as a business owner I call BS! Turnover, service, professionalism, word of mouth …

    Shimples!

  212. TB Queensland permalink
    March 8, 2019 8:54 pm

    affordablily

    I think you meant “affordability” ?

    I understand it may be an unusual word for you … 😉

  213. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 8, 2019 11:24 pm

    No worries!! I see both TB & Tom R agree that the effect if the ALP policy on negative gearing onn housing will reduce prices. Which is the objective of the policy. It’s just a question of whether this is sound during aperiod where housing prices are already falling

  214. March 9, 2019 9:04 am

    “I think it is likely to exacerbate the fall in the market.”

    I think Treasury’s modelling shows it will only have a modest effect.

  215. March 9, 2019 9:05 am

    https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js

  216. TB Queensland permalink
    March 9, 2019 10:30 am

    I see both TB & Tom R agree that the effect if the ALP policy on negative gearing onn housing will reduce prices.

    BULLSHIT!

    Your comprehension is really awful … or deliberately deceitful …

  217. TB Queensland permalink
    March 9, 2019 10:35 am

    https://www.news.com.au/finance/real-estate/caught-redhanded-treasury-slaps-down-government-on-negative-gearing/news-story/14af9dff8c06bcebef3271f8bba2a1d6

    And ToM still continues the fake news … and it always catches up with you … sometimes seriously …

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    (Note: This story relates to the USA – but …)

    Despite the terrifying ordeal, Mr Nerius says he doesn’t blame his parents for not vaccinating him.

    They were believers in alternative medicine in the 1980s, and he said they didn’t have the internet to be able to fact check the lies they were told.

    But he said there were no excuses for anti-vaxxers today, as it had been proven time and time again how dangerous not vaccinating could be.

    https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/adult-son-of-antivaxxers-furious-after-contracting-measlesaccinated-him/news-story/a8a9daa5d768d9eacde354f4e3d55577

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    What really irks is that BS artists still get to vote!

  218. TB Queensland permalink
    March 9, 2019 10:44 am

    Check out the wine barrel rooms …

  219. Tom R permalink
    March 9, 2019 1:34 pm

    This is what the US media are reporting today

    It’s wunnerfull that our pmt can take the yanks minds away from their own pmt 😦

    Dog almighty he is a DICK!

  220. TB Queensland permalink
    March 9, 2019 1:40 pm

    That’s very unfair to DICKs, TR … although, oddly, all the people named Dick I’ve known usually have actually been DICKs …

  221. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 9, 2019 5:33 pm

    Yes, the ALP policy is to reduce pressure on housing prices, by limiting demand to an extent.

    But… the market is already falling, so overlaying a falling market with further demand redution policies creates even lower demand… and uncertainty about the consequences.

  222. TB Queensland permalink
    March 9, 2019 7:13 pm

    … by limiting demand to an extent … and uncertainty about the consequences.

    BS! Again …

    Answer my questions … for a healthy exchange …

    … you prattle just like NEEEEEEL … but sounding knowledgeable and intelligent with comments that seem intelligible, without facts and information to back it up, the comment is still prattle …

    There is evidence in comments above that actually prove your prattle to be wrong … yet like all right wing supporters you continue to push the current government BS …

    In a nutshell you believe in pillaging the poor to increase the wealth (power and control) of the rich …

    The privileged wealth blinkers are so shiny and obvious, ToM

  223. TB Queensland permalink
    March 9, 2019 7:15 pm

    Yes, the ALP policy is to reduce pressure on housing prices, by limiting demand to an extent.

    Why would an ALP government want to “limit demand” – demand creates fkn jobs! (Negative gearing creates investor wealth)

  224. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 9, 2019 7:51 pm

    TB, I notice you’re always referrung to “economics 101”

    I don’t know whether you’ve studued economics 101, but it is largely about the laws of demand and supply. That is, if demand or supply changes, there is a price effect.

    The ALP policy is intended to have a demand effect, by “levelling the playing field”

  225. TB Queensland permalink
    March 9, 2019 8:11 pm

    Oh! Dear … “referring” … dear boy … (is “referrung” harking back to a culture?)

    You would love it to be Economics 101 … another assumption … I do understand supply and demand … but if you re-read (if you actually comprehended my comment above ) I understand a bit more than 101 … I was lucky to have lecturer who had experienced both command and capitalist economies …

    And before you jump to conclusions … he referred to me as “my doubting Thomas” … thanks to him (and a couple of other people) … my life, career and family have experienced very successful lives …

    I’m a capitalist and a believer in democracy … but like my lecturer I abhor greed, abuse of power and the pillage of the poor …

    And I see it throughout the world I have to live in … so when I see BS I call it!

  226. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 9, 2019 10:22 pm

    The negative gearing policy is intended to reduce demand by changing the tax benefit. Reducing demand causes a price reduction.

    When housing prices are falling quite quickly, who much further does the ALP wish them to fall?

    https://www.investopedia.com/university/economics/economics3.asp

  227. Tom R permalink
    March 9, 2019 11:28 pm

    yomm, they are not decreasing demand, the demand for houses will remain

    If by ‘demand’, you mean something is getting cheaper (which I thought ‘free marketers’ preferred?)……. wouldn’t that just be a sign of better competition?
    More people will now be vying for that property now, as those with less leveraged finances are able to bid into the market.

    so overlaying a falling market with further demand redution policies creates even lower demand

    by ‘falling’, I think you mean ‘failing’, at great taxpayer expense.

    When housing prices are falling quite quickly, who much further does the ALP wish them to fall?

    Prices have been rising way too steeply for years. The ‘correction’ has a long way to go imo.

    And if ‘investors’ do their dough by leveraging themselves too far ……………… isn’t that ‘the price of business’?

  228. Tom R permalink
    March 9, 2019 11:30 pm

    From a link I just read (thanks yomm)

    the higher the price of a good, the less people will demand that good.

  229. March 10, 2019 8:31 am

    “And if ‘investors’ do their dough by leveraging themselves too far ……………… isn’t that ‘the price of business’?”

    Indeed. And then that’s when they all start whinging that “the bank lent me more money than I could afford (even though I lied about the extent of my liabilities in the loan application)”

  230. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 10, 2019 1:09 pm

    How does making something “more affordable ” differ from making it cheaper? The objective of the ALP policy on negative gearing is to make property investment less attractive and more expensive. Therefore demand falls, prices react to demand (Economics 101) by declining.

    And the concern about falling property prices isn’t related to investors, it’s the effect this has on consumer confidence and spending.

  231. ivi permalink
    March 10, 2019 5:18 pm

    (How does making something “more affordable ” differ from making it cheaper?

    Maybe peruse the ALP’s actual policy(ies); progress to multi-factor modelling of said actual policy(ies), and to analysis(es) of (notional) demand(s) and supply(ies) (graph(ies) for (divers) market(s) segments) among, between, and over time(s)….vis-a-vis multivarious stated objectives; oh, and try your hand at real-world-data-driven Econometrics 101 while doing so, taking care not to become too rigid in your thinking or too tangled up in the dynamic(s) of elasticity(ies); then, maybe (re)consider why Treasury representatives took time out to refute certain LNP operatives for certain Economic 101 statements, quite possibly amounting to gross oversimplification(s) and/or misrepresentation(s) of Treasury advice(s), for rank political purposes? Or, just continue, (in)effectively, to recapitulate the (uncredited) marvel(s) of extant market-based housing ‘prices’ and/or consumer confidence and spending (in a deliberately-engineered environment of household dissaving, if Matthias, and the 2017 Budget are to be believed) to (back)form argument(s) going forward?)

  232. TB Queensland permalink
    March 10, 2019 6:07 pm

    Therefore demand falls, prices react to demand (Economics 101) by declining.

    FFS … talk about silly … economics 010 … arse about face … as TR pointed out … demand hasn’t fallen … prices should fall to satisfy demand … its a market economy … ya know “the specials this week are” … what’s amusing is that the advocates for capitalism only think its about increasing profits …

    What they need to know is that if you fuck with the system you will eventually LOSE …

    Market economy as its played now is a gamble … and the big gamblers whinge when they lose … play the game properly and its a win-win …

    BTW I must take you up on a previous comment …

    TB, I notice you’re always referrung to “economics 101”

    I don’t “always” refer to Ec.101 … I call it as sarcasm … (eg your point above is NOT 101) demand hasn’t fallen (I know a few people who would love to stop paying rent to people who love controlling other people’s lives) … investors have got frightened – its election fever … and banks have got cagey … (we’ll show you!!! Is the message) … I’ve read articles that “blame” the RC … it’s the BANKS who fucked up not the RC …

    People need homes … when they become “investment opportunities” it bastardises the real concept of the home market … and becomes the real estate industry …

    Suffer the ignorance …

  233. Tom R permalink
    March 10, 2019 6:56 pm

    property investment less attractive and more expensive.

    Only one type of property investment, those who are able to access the taxpayer largess. For all others, this becomes a more viable investment, increasing demand from those players, even if it does reduce demand from taxpayer subsidised ‘private’ investors who exist purely “in a deliberately-engineered environment of household dissaving”

    when they become “investment opportunities” it bastardises the real concept of the home market

    Precisely. And, if our economy survives solely because of this taxpayer funded bastardization, then we are beyond hope

  234. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 10, 2019 8:42 pm

    Does eliminating a tax deduction have an impact on demand ?

  235. Tom R permalink
    March 10, 2019 9:19 pm

    Does eliminating a tax deduction have an impact on demand

    For the slow ones

    Only one type of property investment, those who are able to access the taxpayer largess. For all others, this becomes a more viable investment, increasing demand from those players, even if it does reduce demand from taxpayer subsidised ‘private’ investors who exist purely “in a deliberately-engineered environment of household dissaving”

    for the real slow ones

    No.

  236. TB Queensland permalink
    March 10, 2019 10:42 pm

    Meanwhile …

    The Coalition has slumped to its worst result of 2019 and its 50th consecutive Newspoll loss, with Labor extending its lead to 54-46 on the two-party-preferred vote.

  237. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 11, 2019 8:28 am

    Tge stated purpose of the ALP policy is to make housing more affordable, therefore less attractive as an investment.

    Price is the consequence and all the ducking and weaving seems bizarre given that the policy seeks cheaper housing.

  238. March 11, 2019 12:59 pm

    “”The Coalition has slumped to its worst result of 2019″”

    But, but, but ScuMo is still the preferred PM…!!!

  239. Tom R permalink
    March 11, 2019 12:59 pm

    therefore less attractive as an investment.

    Investment is only one reason for buying a house.

    Replacing investors with home owners is good policy.

    If anything, it will probably drive up demand, because, as somebodies link said

    the higher the price of a good, the less people will demand that good.

  240. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 11, 2019 2:28 pm

    It reduces investment demand, and (as you know) that’s part of total demand for housing!!

    Therefore lower demand = ??… lower prices!!

    And as prices are already falling, is it a great idea to add to this via specific government policy?

  241. Tom R permalink
    March 11, 2019 4:02 pm

    is it a great idea to add to this via specific government policy?

    Is it a great idea to take away Government artificially raising the price of housing?

    YES!

    that’s part of total demand for housing!

    But not the ONLY demand

    So much demand has been forced out due to high prices caused by Government funding investors

  242. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 11, 2019 8:18 pm

    Finally you’re correct!

    Reducing demand of investors is intended to stop them bidding the price up against owner occupiers.

    Therefore the reduction in demand makes housing for owner occupiers cheaper more affordable

  243. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 11, 2019 8:18 pm

    Finally you’re correct!

    Reducing demand of investors is intended to stop them bidding the price up against owner occupiers.

    Therefore the reduction in demand makes housing for owner occupiers cheaper more affordable

  244. Tom R permalink
    March 11, 2019 9:48 pm

    Demand != price

    from a link someone put up earlier in defense of their ‘argument’ (can you guess who it was YOMM?)

    the higher the price of a good, the less people will demand that good.

    😉

    Therefore the reduction in demand for investors makes housing for owner occupiers cheaper and therefore their DEMAND will rise.

    Not sure why you are having such difficulty with such a simple concept yomm. Obstinateness perhaps?

  245. March 12, 2019 9:35 am

    “”Therefore the reduction in demand for investors makes housing for owner occupiers cheaper and therefore their DEMAND will rise.””

    I’m just here for the popcorn..

  246. Tom R permalink
    March 12, 2019 10:12 am

    I’m just here for the popcorn.

    Will that increase or decrease demand for corn dogs?

  247. March 12, 2019 10:41 am

    Reblogged this on The Grovely Gazette.

  248. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 12, 2019 12:49 pm

    The objective of the ALP policy is to reduce AGGREGATE demand, and it seeks to make housing cheaper more affordable as a result

    I really don’t understand why ALP supporters are so reluctant to acknowledge this.

  249. Tom R permalink
    March 12, 2019 1:32 pm

    I really don’t understand why ALP supporters are so reluctant to acknowledge this.

    Nobody is, you are just shifting goal posts

    Demand might fluctuate in the Aggregate sense, but the number of people looking for houses will most probably remain the same, if not increase.

    fyi, Aggregate demand is already falling.

  250. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 12, 2019 4:00 pm

    Aggregate demand is already falling.

    Exactly, and therefore prices are falling, so is this the time to introduce a policy with the specific objective to reduce aggregate demand and prices?

  251. Tom R permalink
    March 12, 2019 4:03 pm

    so is this the time to introduce a policy with the specific objective to reduce aggregate demand and prices?

    YES

    because, demand will not fall, prices may, but we NEED prices to fall, and for the right reasons (not because of an artificially stimulated market)

  252. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    March 12, 2019 5:41 pm

    Prices are already in steep decline, and the issue is whether there should be a specific government policy to increase the decline.

  253. Tom R permalink
    March 12, 2019 6:32 pm

    There should be policy to fix the imbalance taxpayers are inflicting on the market. There is never a good time for that on some people’s opinion. It might be just what the market needs. Either way, it cannot continue as is

  254. April 25, 2019 6:53 pm

    Thank you for your article. I wrote something similar on the nature of the sentence handed to Pell. If you could take a look and let me know what you think that would be much appreciated

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