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Labor determined to keep School Chaplains despite High Court decision

June 20, 2012

  • High Court finds Chaplains in Schools program is invalid
  • Millions spent on programs so far
  • Govt vows to fight to keep chaplains in schools

The Gillard Government is once again defying the High Court this time vowing to maintain the controversial “School Chaplains” program.

The program has attracted criticism for amounting to a form of taxpayer funded religious indoctrination, propaganda, and a recruitment channel for religious organisations who are given free reign to prey on vulnerable children who may be subjected to unwelcome religious “counselling.”

Originally founded by John Howard in 2006 and lauded by conservative Christians and the religious right, the schools chaplains programs has cost taxpayers some hundreds of millions of dollars on what many regard would be better spent on secular counselling services free from the influence of religious scripture.

Toowoomba parent Ron Williams successfully launched a High Court challenge against the chaplaincy program, arguing it violated the separation of church and state and encroached on the state’s powers over education.

Mr Williams had four children at the Darling Heights State School in Toowoomba, west of Brisbane, which has had a federal government-funded chaplain since 2007.

Mr Williams says he believes passionately in the separation of church and state.

“Public schools aren’t a place for religious missionaries, with or without government funding,” he said.

“The fact the federal government was funding them was adding insult to injury.

“It really isn’t the Commonwealth’s place to be funding chaplains in public schools. It was always a political manouevre from the very beginning.”

This morning, the majority of the High Court declared the Commonwealth’s funding agreement for the scheme was invalid because it was beyond the Commonwealth’s constitutional powers.

The Government has vowed to challenge the High Court decision and is determined to continue taxpayer funding for the program reflecting yet again, it’s determination to pander to religious conservatives.

Minister for Religious Indoctrination Peter Garrett vowed to continue funding for the school chaplains program despite the High Court declaring the scheme “invalid.”

 “We’re committed to maintaining funding for the school chaplains,” Mr Garrett said.

Following the decision, The Greens have announced that school chaplains should be replaced with “child welfare workers.”

Greens MP John Kaye called the court challenge, brought by Queensland father Ronald Williams, a “great victory for secular public education.”

“The offensive misuse of public money to push religion onto innocent public school children has come to an end,” he said in a statement.

Chief Justice Robert French wrote that the reasons for the decision were based upon constitutional provisions for executive power and did “not involve any judgment about the merits of public funding of chaplaincy services in schools”.

Dr Kaye said NSW Education Minister Adrian Piccoli should redirect $25 million in commonwealth funds to pay for 300 qualified child-welfare workers at needy state schools.

“The use of enthusiastic amateurs to address the welfare needs of troubled students has been dangerous and misleading,” he said.

“Public funding of chaplains has been offensive.”

 

 

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160 Comments leave one →
  1. June 20, 2012 4:15 pm

    Attorney-General Nicola Roxon said she is examining the ruling’s implications.

    She said she would examine ways to legally continue the program, such as changing the law or paying states to provide the services instead of paying the providers directly.

    The Australian Christian Lobby, an advocacy group, welcomed the government’s commitment to find a way to maintain the program.

    For the love of God. 🙄

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gdlyAWlsi0e7NnavLxpy8YXpdiPw?docId=9ebe9387efc6420d925bf148cbad6f33

  2. June 20, 2012 4:20 pm

    Couldn’t agaree more. People in a student advisory role should be professionally trained, not there because of their religious beliefs.

  3. June 20, 2012 4:21 pm

    What is it with our self-professed atheist PM and her pandering to religious nutjob minority groups like the fkn ACL…..??

    It’s just so completely and utterly fked.

  4. June 20, 2012 4:26 pm

    It shows that, with them, politics trumps principle. Every time.

  5. June 20, 2012 4:34 pm

    We have two chaplains/counselors at work.

    It’s hilarious watching grown men fleeing their approach whenever they do their obligatory rounds.

    God is dead in my workplace. Long live its demise.

  6. June 20, 2012 4:38 pm

    “politics trumps principle. Every time.”

    Amen (for want of a better word).

    The government is too worried about spooking the ACL.

    The chaplain at my daughter’s school is from one of the nuttier, tongue talking denominations in town. She has been authorised, by me, to ignore any bullshit which he may chance to promulgate.
    They still let the local Catholics into the classroom for a pre Easter wank & recruitment drive too.
    Oh how we laugh & laugh.

  7. June 20, 2012 4:47 pm

    Just to be clear, the High Court ruled in favour of the program on the religious point, but against on a point of funding that had nothing to do with religion.

    Which makes the comments of the Greens MP pretty stupid. It was actually a win for religion in schools.

    As far as I’m concerned, if people want religion, they should be allowed to go and get it, free from restriction and ridicule, but to the extent that they do, they should fund it themselves.

    I’ve never really got my head around what it is that these chaplains do.

  8. June 20, 2012 4:52 pm

    I agree, james.

    If people want religion, for their own children (or themselves), then there is no impediment to them pursuing that in the broader community.
    A public school however, is not the place for emissaries of Teh Book of Lies & Fables.

  9. TB Queensland permalink
    June 20, 2012 5:02 pm

    VE-E-E-E-E-E RY dangerous ground … there has got to be a hidden agenda here!

    We complained last Christmas at the over the top religious service approach at our g/kids Christmas concert … (State Primary School)

    Another lie from Julia Gillard? … she says she’s an agnostic but actions certainly speak louder than words!

    … religious beliefs will be tolerated BUT only in adults … and only if they don’t preach …

    Religious STUDIES of all religions are fine but not indoctrination …

  10. TB Queensland permalink
    June 20, 2012 5:35 pm

    I see, James, is happy with the decision … 😉

  11. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    June 20, 2012 5:41 pm

    ”I’ve never really got my head around what it is that these chaplains do.”

    They wander around the school grounds in a hair shirt followed by the local misfits who are looking (in the wrong place) for something relevant, chanting “repent all you sinners!”

  12. TB Queensland permalink
    June 20, 2012 5:54 pm

    I can assure you that my personal experience has that the Scripture Union of Queensland (the biggest provider of school chaplains – I wonder what they are trained in?) IS about propagating religious dogma

    I’ve experienced it PERSONALLY and found it OFFENSIVE …

    Mr James believes that there has been some misunderstanding of the role of chaplains.

    “Chaplaincy is about being there to celebrate the good and to support kids during the bad. It is not about propagating religious dogma. It’s about building resilience and treating all students with respect and dignity, and working with other caring professionals to build a strong network of support for students.”

    http://www.suqld.org.au/home/

    Just check out the photo of the incoming CEO, Peter James, ueueurururur … shivery stuff …

  13. June 20, 2012 5:59 pm

    “people want religion, they should be allowed to go and get it, free from restriction and ridicule”

    I say bullshit to that. If people want religion sure they should be free to go and get it but if that religion involves believing in ridiculous fairy stories then they should expect to be ridiculed and rightly so.

  14. June 20, 2012 6:03 pm

    Yeah, fo sho.

    I should be absolutely free to ridicule their amusing dependency upon wishful fiction.

  15. June 20, 2012 6:09 pm

    There is no place for these so called “chaplains” in our education system, and if we lived in a truly equitable society they would fucked right off out of schools at a very short notice.

    I don’t want these “Jesus salespeople” preying on our vulnerable and impressionable youth with their seriously twisted and fucked up little ways.

    They can take their mean spirited little pursed up lips and holier than thou doctrine off to some other far flung place far away from freaking out the next generation with their god-fearing and guilt-ridden, sanctimonious, condescending bullshit.

    Fuck them. The lot of them.

    Just sayin’.

  16. June 20, 2012 6:12 pm

    I thought you leftoids liked government mandated thought control?

    http://www.hreoc.gov.au/human_rights/religion/index.html

    Personally I think all kinds of thought including religion should be open to ridicule and criticism. But then I’m a free speech extremist who thinks discussions about what qualifies someone to claim aboriginality should be allowed.

  17. June 20, 2012 6:15 pm

    “you leftoids”

    And that would be like a startling majority around these parts lately eh?

  18. TB Queensland permalink
    June 20, 2012 6:17 pm

    I can assure Mr James, that I have personal experience that his chaplains ARE about propagating religious dogma and I found it personally OFFENSIVE … as did some of the teachers at my g/children’s school (at least one teacher was a Catholic) …

    My daughter formally complained

    The Scripture Union of Queensland is the largest “supplier” of school chaplains … I’d like to see what they actually learn to be counsellors … SUQ is an RTO delivering Cert IV and Dip in Youth Work … wonder how many school chaplains are actually graduates, though …

    Mr James believes that there has been some misunderstanding of the role of chaplains.

    “Chaplaincy is about being there to celebrate the good and to support kids during the bad. It is not about propagating religious dogma. It’s about building resilience and treating all students with respect and dignity, and working with other caring professionals to build a strong network of support for students.”

    http://www.suqld.org.au/home/

    Check out Mr James’ photo … he seems noice … 🙄

  19. June 20, 2012 6:19 pm

    😉

    Well there’s you. And toiletboss, and TB, and Armchair Opinionator. And, and . . . and the rest of ’em prefer that their opinions are affirmed, and only trolls challenge them.

  20. June 20, 2012 6:21 pm

    I’m a “leftoid?”. 😉

    Not according to the cafe patrons and the TPS mob….!

  21. June 20, 2012 6:22 pm

    Mr James looks like kiddie fiddler….

  22. el gordo permalink
    June 20, 2012 6:28 pm

    We need to differentiate between leftoids and watermelons.

  23. June 20, 2012 6:30 pm

    Given you are a Wealth Crazed Prick, I’d say you’re a Lamborghini Leftists. You hold all the “right” opinions, but don’t let anyone stand between you and the comfortable capitalistic lifestyle to which you’re accustomed. And I mean that as a compliment. Sort of. 😉

  24. TB Queensland permalink
    June 20, 2012 6:30 pm

    Apologies for the “almost” double up post … my first just disappeared … and I was then shall we say “distracted” …

    And that would be like a startling majority around these parts lately eh?

    Yeah? Who is actually a “leftoid” here now …

  25. TB Queensland permalink
    June 20, 2012 6:31 pm

    sreb, did you remove my “testing” post?

  26. June 20, 2012 6:31 pm

    *Given your Wealth Crazed Prick credentials

  27. June 20, 2012 6:32 pm

    I’ve asked this before, and no-one seems inclined to answer. What exactly does a leftist stand for these days? Or is it what they stand against that defines ‘leftism’?

  28. June 20, 2012 6:35 pm

    did you remove my “testing” post?

    Yes, cos I found your original post in the spaminator and then published it (scroll up)

  29. el gordo permalink
    June 20, 2012 6:38 pm

    TB is a leftoid and Kitty is a watermelon…I think.

  30. June 20, 2012 6:41 pm

    “I’ve asked this before, and no-one seems inclined to answer. What exactly does a leftist stand for these days? Or is it what they stand against that defines ‘leftism’?”

    Maybe you should ask the cafe crew…?

    Apparently ANY OPINION that criticises the Gillard Govt is by its very nature an Abbott Loving “Liberal Party’s Liar’s view”

    Apparently …. 🙄

  31. June 20, 2012 6:43 pm

    I find the “watermelon” characterisation of KL quite offensive not to mention completely innaccurate….

    Just sayin.

  32. June 20, 2012 6:44 pm

    Real leftoids don’t eat shit sandwiches…

  33. TB Queensland permalink
    June 20, 2012 6:45 pm

    Ta!

    TB is a leftoid Mmmmm … KL is a Greens voter … these days I’m pissed off with ’em all, egg … but probably more left than any poster here … I still struggle with the left view on CW … (sorry guys I know you lurk) … I can’t/ won’t defend the indefensible …

  34. el gordo permalink
    June 20, 2012 6:48 pm

    ‘I find the “watermelon” characterisation of KL quite offensive not to mention completely inaccurate….’

    And you are?

  35. June 20, 2012 6:52 pm

    ‘Maybe you should ask the cafe crew’

    Yes, but the’re inclined to divide politics along party lines. Labor is good, so, if you support everything they do, you are, by default, a good person. On the other hand, the Liberal party is evil, and so are their supporters.

    My question has nothing to do with political parties.

    In the past leftists supported various forms of Marxism, which was initially seen as an antidote to the exploitation of labour(ers). But the seemingly good idea that everyone could live happily under centralised control and everyone would be economically equal was eventually proven false. It needed coercion to “work”.

    So what is modern leftism? Enquiring minds need to know.

  36. June 20, 2012 7:29 pm

    “And you are?”

    Not you.

  37. June 20, 2012 7:32 pm

    “So what is modern leftism? Enquiring minds need to know…”

    I agree. Pity that those on left leaning blogs can’t shed any light other than “Gillard is good, Abbott is bad”….

  38. el gordo permalink
    June 20, 2012 7:52 pm

    I’m a leftoid like TB.

  39. June 20, 2012 7:59 pm

    So sayeth the Nick Minchin worshipper… 🙄

  40. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    June 20, 2012 8:24 pm

    AO/KL is far too independently minded to be labelled. Most of her opinions are quite well considered and often unpredictable.

  41. el gordo permalink
    June 20, 2012 8:33 pm

    As I said before reb, Australia’s political future is painfully clear and I’m not happy the way its turned out. Minchin will be president and its nothing to do with me.

    Following up on Tony’s interest in the new left…

    Princess Julia is head of the left coalition and her ardent supporters come from the 18% of the workforce who are government employees and the one in four households dependent on welfare.

    A quarter of Australians think Julia Gillard is doing a good job, this is the new left.

  42. June 20, 2012 8:38 pm

    TB and I still struggle with the left view on CW … (sorry guys I know you lurk) Well actually no..I only just discovered today that reb had moved.

    Any particular left view in mind?

    Actually Gillard = extremely disappointing on the issue of marriage equality. But what about the other parliamentarians. In spite of Abbott not allowing a conscience vote what is stopping members of the LP crossing the floor on this issue..Turnbull did it..once…

  43. el gordo permalink
    June 20, 2012 8:58 pm

    From Philippa Martyr in Quadrant

    ‘The hilarious implication – and secret terror of every Melbourne hipster – is that Rinehart will turn Fairfax into some kind of 24-hour Mining Channel, with endless re-runs of Red Dog and Wake in Fright, interspersed with ads for blue singlets.

    ‘You won’t be able to so much as pick up a copy of the Age without finding your hands stained red with dust, as you search in vain for a single article that isn’t about the Hancock family, while averting your eyes from the topless pictures of Andrew Bolt on page 3.

    ‘I don’t know about you, but given the uniformly mindless dross scraped up, warmed over, rehashed and then served as ideological bubble-and-squeak on the ABC (even drizzled with its jus of self-righteousness and dark-green sea foam), I long for alternatives. In fact, I long for the much-anticipated sale of the ABC under the most enthusiastic sort of Liberal government, and dismantled by an equally enthusiastic Mark Latham.

    ‘During the Renaissance, it was the independently filthy rich – the oligarchs, bankers and popes – who sponsored the finest artists of the age. Let a new Renaissance bloom at the touch of button 2 on the remote: I hope Rinehart buys the entire Fairfax group, and then casts hungry eyes on the ABC itself.’

  44. June 20, 2012 9:02 pm

    Rather than pigeonhole myself as something so ambiguous as ‘The Left’, I prefer to see myself as ‘Not Of The Right’…if that makes any sense at all.

  45. June 20, 2012 9:09 pm

    I suppose I believe in individualism with a social conscience. I believe in making a reasonable contribution to the greater community through gainful employment.

    Above all, I think that people can easily find a thousand reasons to see others as ‘different’, but tend not to focus on the glaringly obvious fact that most of all of our basic wants & needs are essentially the same.

    Choosing sides is fraught, in so far as painting oneself into an awkward corner.

    I could give a fuck about Marx or any of the other supposed ideological gurus & analysts.

  46. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    June 20, 2012 9:10 pm

    For what it is worth, my input is that I’ve observed plenty that have the attitude that they’ll support Gillard regardless of proven dishonesty.

  47. June 20, 2012 9:13 pm

    Fuck Gina Rinehart…

    Philippa Martyr is seriously deranged.

  48. June 20, 2012 9:16 pm

    The reflexive conservative cringing about the ABC is equally as ridiculous as carping about Murdoch’s tentacles.

    H Y P E R B O L E

  49. el gordo permalink
    June 20, 2012 9:31 pm

    Even the left are now saying ‘something has to be done about the ABC.’

  50. June 20, 2012 9:39 pm

    They’re saying that for the polar opposite reason though.

    The ‘left’ claims the ABC is right biased, the ‘Right’ claims the ABC is left biased.

    I say people see what they want to see.

  51. James of North Melbourne permalink
    June 20, 2012 10:17 pm

    You can’t possibly sit through breakfast radio on ABC local radio in Melbourne and not conclude Faine is left biased. The guy is a deadset Marxist.

  52. el gordo permalink
    June 21, 2012 8:28 am

    Both sides criticise the ABC for bias, so it may be time to consider aunty’s future. Being of the left it pains me to say the Australian Brainwashing Corporation has probably passed its used by date.

  53. June 21, 2012 9:23 am

    “Being of the left …”

    *picking myself up from the floor*

    You’re from “the left….????!!!”

    Isn’t this the same el gordo who thinks that climate change is crap and that the sun shines out of Nick Minchin’s proverbial….???

  54. June 21, 2012 10:03 am

    Ha! The ABC stays…& the rightoids can just fucking lump it!

  55. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    June 21, 2012 10:05 am

    Well, there was a time that “being of the left” meant that you had principles. “The left” would traditionally support asylum seekers, marriage equality, political honesty…So I suppose eg has as much right to the claim as many around the blogosphere.

  56. June 21, 2012 10:11 am

    True that. Although I would hardly think that someone who idolises Nick Minchin would in the next breath claim to be “of the left…”

  57. June 21, 2012 10:21 am

    Nick Minchin is, by Australian standards at least, from the Lunar-Fucking-Right !

  58. June 21, 2012 10:24 am

    He’s only idolised by anti-zealots for his pigheaded opposition to AGW…(who knows, maybe they congeal together on his insane pro-tobacco proselytising too?).

  59. Tony permalink
    June 21, 2012 10:47 am

    I’m not pro-tobacco, and I’m certain smoking causes lung cancer (I’ve had two heavy-smoking acquaintances die from it in the past few years), but if someone wants to trade longevity for immediate gratification or “pleasure” – be it tobacco, alcohol, drugs or whatever – they have every right to do so, in my book.

  60. Tony permalink
    June 21, 2012 10:51 am

    In el gordo’s defence, nobody here seems willing or able to define modern leftism.

  61. June 21, 2012 10:55 am

    Isn’t leftism just a blurry construct for dipshits like Bolt to attack, blame & rail against? I think it is.

    Besides which, I said that I’m ‘Not Of The Right’, rather than claiming to be ‘Left’.

  62. June 21, 2012 10:58 am

    “nobody here seems willing or able to define modern leftism.”

    Howabout:

    “Right Lite”

  63. June 21, 2012 11:01 am

    I agree with all you said about tobacco, Tony. My other ‘alf, of the last 15 years, is a smoker & I pay for her to smoke, more often than not; even though I’ve never smoked cigarettes myself. I’d like her to stop, for her own health & the sake of our child, but I’ve never once insisted & I never will.
    I’m not on a crusade to prevent others from indulging their vices.

    My point about Minchin was that he has previously gone into bat for Big Tobacco, casting aspersions on the link between smoking & cancer; something which you have just acknowledged yourself (as most rational people who aren’t beholden to lobbying probably would).

  64. June 21, 2012 11:02 am

    I imagine el gordo identifies with Minchin’s strong stance against AGW, but probably isn’t aligned with most of his other lunar right rot. FWIW.

  65. June 21, 2012 11:22 am

    casting aspersions on the link between smoking & cancer

    PASSIVE smoking and cancer…..there’s a big difference.

  66. June 21, 2012 11:22 am

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Minchin#Tobacco_sceptic

    “In 1995 Minchin submitted a dissenting Senate report[10] on the tobacco industry and the costs of tobacco-related illness that disputed the Committee’s statements that it believes cigarettes are addictive and that passive smoking is harmful.[11] Minchin claimed the tobacco industry was over-regulated. He also disagreed with the conclusions about the addictiveness of nicotine and the harmfulness of passive smoking”

    Not addictive? what a fucking nong!

  67. Tony permalink
    June 21, 2012 11:23 am

    ‘My point about Minchin was that he has previously gone into bat for Big Tobacco, casting aspersions on the link between smoking & cancer’

    In fairness to Minchin, he was sceptical about the link between passive smoking and “adverse healh effects”.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Minchin#Tobacco_sceptic

  68. June 21, 2012 11:23 am

    Oh dear, so you’re a fucking nong too?!

    I suppose you think they’re not addictive?

    Ever met or lived with a smoker, snacty?

    🙄

    unfknblvbl!

  69. June 21, 2012 11:24 am

    Anyone care to support the fucking nong’s claim about nicoteine not being addictive?….going once, twice…

  70. June 21, 2012 11:26 am

    * nicotine

  71. Tony permalink
    June 21, 2012 11:26 am

    Yeah, he’s clearly wrong on the addictive part. Any smoker can tell you that.

  72. June 21, 2012 11:29 am

    As for passive smoking, he’s likely doing a bit of rightwing hairsplitting. ie. passive smoking in the middle of a paddock on a windy day is negligible…but quite removed from that in a confined space such as a car or unventilated area indoors.

    But, no worries, defending St. Nick’s lunacy makes perfect sense. I’m sure he’s never been lobbied & is quite unimpeachable generally. 🙄

  73. June 21, 2012 11:31 am

    He’s just less clearly wrong on the passive part.

    Any volunteer guinea pigs (non-smokers) willing to undergo a few years of passive smoking to build the body of evidence necessary to convince Minchin & the Minchineers?

  74. June 21, 2012 11:42 am

    Succeeded by none other other than Eric Abetz, another loon of no small water!

  75. June 21, 2012 11:47 am

    But, I digress.

    I think teaching religion in schools is not only fine, but a net positive. So long as it’s done in a historical sense & not to promote any one religion above the other breeds of fantasy.
    The Catholic boarding school I went to is where I initially learnt about Judaism, Islam & a few of the Eastern religions. It helps to understand the global demographic, apart from neutralising ignorance.

    Just keep the ambassadors out of public schools. Imagine if they were muslims. The fkn ACL would be squealing up a terrible din!

  76. TB Queensland permalink
    June 21, 2012 12:07 pm

    I suppose I believe in individualism with a social conscience. I believe in making a reasonable contribution to the greater community through gainful employment.

    Agree absolutely … The Minister and I were young parents (she 19, me 21) we laid our foundation for our children with another of our easy to remember cliches/sayings … our children will be contributing members of society … and they are … and our g/children are brought up with the same foundation …

    Above all, I think that people can easily find a thousand reasons to see others as ‘different’, but tend not to focus on the glaringly obvious fact that most of all of our basic wants & needs are essentially the same.

    Very true … Maslow will attest to that! But many people don’t recognise that its “differences” that make the world go round … different thoughts, ideas, skills, talents, knowledge, perceptions …

    Choosing sides is fraught, in so far as painting oneself into an awkward corner.

    You can only make a stand if you choose a “side” but you have to be prepared to concede a better point of view or reality rather than “beliefs” … the world changes … personally I believe that adaptation within a “belief set” is how we develop and advance … recognising (or admitting) mistakes and esnuring that they don’t occur again (proper quality control) … and if your “side” is wrong – say so … the latter is an issue I have had with a lot of bloggers here and at Blogocracy, Blogocrats, Cafe Whispers … trying to defend “your side” when they are blatantly wrong only encourages further mistakes – the present government is a case in point … and one of the reasons Farnham Bear lost his cool over my posts so much …

    I could give a fuck about Marx or any of the other supposed ideological gurus & analysts.

    Nor I, and we know that Communism doesn’t work with a Command System … China is proving that Communism may work with Capitalism …

    Russia fell apart because of greed and corruption … the West is falling apart because of greed and corruption … only a dickhead would say one is better than the other … as they do …

    To answer ToSY .. a true left leaning person tends to be aware that we are not all born to rule or be successeful — especially at the expense of other people … that some folk need more help in the world than others and always will … if you have something that, if shared, can make someone elses life easier or happier then you share it … believes that the majority of people are honest, hardworking, love being part of a family, enjoy socialising … most people are not greedy just the ten percent who want own the world … the other 90% just want to be left in peace … literally …

    And this left leaning, capitalist and ex-business owner, has no time for Robber Baron mentality and governments that manipulate people’s lives towards factory and gun fodder pursuits of the Right leaning political and religious factions … and that includes the present Federal Government who should be ashamed to refer to themselves as the Australian Labor Party …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    As an aside we re-negotiated our contract with Origin this morning … The Minister, set out to get 10% … which she did in the end … but dealing over the phone with contract changes must be horrific for the average person!*

  77. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 21, 2012 12:50 pm

    Encouraging the indoctrination of children into lies, dogma and belief in magical, all seeing, all knowing, beings is just wrong and the taxpayers should not be funding any of it. There’s enough churches around and people who believe the rubbish should make the effort to take their kids to their god’s house in their own time.

    Russia fell apart because of greed and corruption … the West is falling apart because of greed and corruption … only a dickhead would say one is better than the other … as they do …

    Too true TB, but plenty of dickheads around. They can’t seem to acknowledge the extent of the failure and the collaboration of the capitalists in defeating any attempts to change the way things are.

    We’ve currently got the financial systems of the entire world in complete failure, the citizens are forced to bail them out [against their will] and expect less than their fair share of the rewards simply to prop up the finance zombies. Governments are turning the state police and troops on their own protesting citizens, people who are in the streets shouting “we don’t want to prop up this failure of a system anymore”. What a brilliant success to crow about!

    The failure of capitalism is protected by a collaboration between controlling powers, and religion is one of those. It’s time for the people to tell governments and industry to shove their version of ‘democracy’.

  78. Tony permalink
    June 21, 2012 12:55 pm

    ‘we are not all born to rule or be successeful — especially at the expense of other people … that some folk need more help in the world than others and always will … if you have something that, if shared, can make someone elses life easier or happier then you share it … believes that the majority of people are honest, hardworking, love being part of a family, enjoy socialising … most people are not greedy just the ten percent who want own the world … the other 90% just want to be left in peace … literally’

    I agree with most of that. Does that make me a leftoid? 😯

  79. Tony permalink
    June 21, 2012 12:56 pm

    I also believe in motherhood. 😉

  80. Tony permalink
    June 21, 2012 1:01 pm

    The Eorozone is a failed experiment in huge centralised government, where sovereign nations ceded power to an unelected paliament in Brussells. It is not a failure of capitalism or anything like it.

  81. June 21, 2012 1:02 pm

    “I agree with most of that. Does that make me a leftoid?”

    Most likely an infiltrator. 😉

  82. June 21, 2012 1:08 pm

    How many ‘leftists’ promoted, or are indeed now promoting, the Eurozone?

    You are right. The term ‘leftist’, if seen as narrowly encompassing supporters of central government, is bastardised & non representative.
    How many ‘leftists’ are radical supporters of globalisation?

    The more you think about it, the more any attempt at such a definition does your head in.

    As I said. I reckon it’s a useful strawman for the Bolt’s to piss on & blame for everything.

  83. June 21, 2012 1:16 pm

    “It is not a failure of capitalism or anything like it.”

    No, but the GFC was, and specifically the use of taxpayers’ monies to bail out the banks…

  84. el gordo permalink
    June 21, 2012 1:24 pm

    ‘someone who idolises Nick Minchin’

    Nick is wrong about gay union but he’s alright on CC….I don’t idolise anyone and never voted for the Libs in my life.

  85. June 21, 2012 1:24 pm


    “The more you think about it, the more any attempt at such a definition does your head in.”

    True.

    There’s an occasional group of “leftie” protesters who congregate on Collins Street, and write slogans on the pavement with chalk like:

    “The banks are all robbers”

    “Turn off your TV and wake up!”

    “You are all being brainwashed by capitalism”

    “Greed and corruption is enslaving you all!”

    I feel like saying “I suppose it’s my brainwashed taxpayer dollars that are keeping you fed and clothed while you waste your time here writing mindless slogans thinking that you’re somehow changing the world and saying something new.”

    But I don’t…

    Honestly who do these motherfkers think they are…?

    That they are somehow “privvy” to the real nature of the world while the rest of us work for a living..?

    They like to think that they have some sort of insightful intellectual superiority that the rest of us mere mortals haven’t woken up to (like The Matrix), but really they’re just unemployed feral fkers and just as much playing the part of a squeaky cog in an otherwise cumbersome machine that’s destined to just lumber on and on and on….

    Just sayin.

  86. June 21, 2012 1:25 pm

    “I don’t idolise anyone and never voted for the Libs in my life.”

    Ok, I forgive you.

  87. June 21, 2012 1:25 pm

    Did you see what I did there….?

    A sort of “reverse apology” 🙂

  88. el gordo permalink
    June 21, 2012 1:26 pm

    That’s gracious of you.

  89. June 21, 2012 1:26 pm

    I knew you’d appreciate it.

  90. JAWS permalink
    June 21, 2012 1:31 pm

    “The Eorozone is a failed experiment in huge centralised government, where sovereign nations ceded power to an unelected paliament in Brussells”

    The main problem is that they didn’t cede enough power.

    They forgot fiscal policy.

    The whole joint needs to become a federation like the USA ,Canada, Oz, UK (counties) where there are local taxes and the Feds hand out grants using uniform income tax regimes.

  91. June 21, 2012 1:34 pm

    JAWS sounds like a LEFTIST !!! 😯

  92. Tony permalink
    June 21, 2012 1:44 pm

    ‘JAWS sounds like a LEFTIST !!!’

    Yes. Yes he does. 😉

    The Eurozone should be dismantled completely and power returned to the sovereign nations, where the people will have some chance of having a say in how things are run. The Euro should be scrapped as a monetary unit, and each country’s currency should be allowed to find its own (true) level of value.

  93. June 21, 2012 1:58 pm

    “The Euro should be scrapped as a monetary unit, and each country’s currency should be allowed to find its own (true) level of value.”

    I concur!

  94. June 21, 2012 1:58 pm

    ‘JAWS sounds like a LEFTIST !!!’

    Well he dresses like one….

    walk shorts…sandals…

  95. JAWS permalink
    June 21, 2012 2:07 pm

    “Yes. Yes he does.”

    OK jokers

    Just making the point that you cannot cede monetary control and keep fiscal control at a state level.

    They should scrap the entire Euro or finish the unification process by the transfer of fiscal powers.

  96. Tony permalink
    June 21, 2012 2:15 pm

    ‘They should scrap the entire Euro or finish the unification process by the transfer of fiscal powers.’

    Correct.

  97. June 21, 2012 2:20 pm

    Geezus, but you get some aggressive reactions at times. There is a world of difference between active and passive smoking. Nick Minchin has suggested that passive smoking doesn’t have certain ill effects. He has been reported as saying that SMOKING doesn’t have certain ill effects.

    Quoting the latter certainly serves to assist in making the point that he’s a lunatic, but it’s just not true.

  98. June 21, 2012 2:23 pm

    Only a lunatic would dispute that cigarettes aren’t adictive.

    Volunteering to be a passive smoking guinea pig then?…no, I bet Minchin isn’t either.

    Have you been lobbied recently or are you just defending lunacy because he’s on the team?

  99. June 21, 2012 2:54 pm

    Feel free to invoke the !st Rule of Holes. 🙂

  100. June 21, 2012 3:02 pm

    He’s just defending lunacy because he’s on the team.

  101. public toilet permalink
    June 21, 2012 3:14 pm

    😯

  102. TB Queensland permalink
    June 21, 2012 3:18 pm

    I agree with most of that. Does that make me a leftoid?

    Dunno, you asked the original question and it was answered … now you want us to make up your mind for you too …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    The main problem is that they didn’t cede enough power.

    They forgot fiscal policy.

    The whole joint needs to become a federation like the USA ,Canada, Oz, UK (counties) where there are local taxes and the Feds hand out grants using uniform income tax regimes.

    We agree again, Wally!

    the problem is that it is NOT a federation of states in the true sense … and I reiterate the prime purpose of the EU was to reduce the possibility of there ever being another war in Europe … its a bit like the UN … functioning but ineffective …

    … and the problem is that The Robber Barons STILL want to control the people …

    … I see the taxpayers in the UK have given the queen (red The Firm) a 20% pay rise now up to … wait for it … 36 million quid! Yeah, and I know she has to pay all the “royal” hangers on … but FMD! WHY? How much do we pay?

    … and, ToSY, most Lefties usually aren’t real keen on the queen in Buckingham Palace either … 😉

  103. el gordo permalink
    June 21, 2012 3:32 pm

    In defence of Minchin the elder statesman.

    He is not averse to supporting some Labor government decisions, such as the ban on Chinese telco Huawei from working on the NBN, noting that he was “disappointed by Coalition criticism”.

    Minchin also supported David Gonski as the Future Fund’s chairman and said the Coalition was wrong headed in thinking the government should have appointed Peter Costello instead.

    This bipartisan approach comes from being a senator for many years.

  104. JAWS permalink
    June 21, 2012 3:57 pm

    “… I see the taxpayers in the UK have given the queen (red The Firm) a 20% pay rise now up to … wait for it … 36 million quid!….”

    C’mon TB

    Given that she is responsible for a tenanted property portfolio (investment properties) worth Billions dont you think she’s worth at least the same as the CEO of J P Morgan ?

    🙂

    I wonder if she’s heard of negative gearing and accelerated depreciation……………..?

    She might like to invest a bit here

  105. JAWS permalink
    June 21, 2012 4:05 pm

    I keep hearing that argument that having a single currency reduces the likelihood of War.

    But during ancient times the main currency was Gold and I seem to recall a bit of arrow and rock tossing by Roman, Carthaginians, Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, Huns, Vandals ……….

    Need I go on ?

  106. TB Queensland permalink
    June 21, 2012 4:19 pm

    … dont you think she’s worth at least the same as the CEO of J P Morgan ?

    Corruption certainly pays off, hey?

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Need I go on ?

    Please don’t – it would take me all night to fill the holes in that argument … BTW its not the currency I was talking about … but the prime PURPOSE … they’re just “discovering” the financial implications … the politics has been well know n for some time … creating and maintaining ancient Empires is just a tad different to Federating States …

  107. JAWS permalink
    June 21, 2012 4:40 pm

    The problem with the Europeans is they’ve ended up with a half bred mongrel dog of a system that they are still trying convince the rest of us is actually a trendy designer pooch.

    And they are not acting quick enough because said mongrel still barks shits and pisses just like the designer pooch they’ve long pined for.

    Problem is its got rabies real bad and the longer its left unattended the more victims it will devour

  108. Tony permalink
    June 21, 2012 4:40 pm

    ‘Dunno, you asked the original question and it was answered … now you want us to make up your mind for you too …’

    It was rhetorical. 😐

  109. Tony permalink
    June 21, 2012 4:54 pm

    PhysOrg: Belief in hell, according to international data, is associated with reduced crime

    Ya can’t argue with The Science.

  110. TB Queensland permalink
    June 21, 2012 6:24 pm

    I agree, Wally …

    (BTW … seeing N5, no longer offers his posts here … And they are not acting quick enough … “quick”, describes, the verb “acting” … therefore an adverb and should, therefore, end in “ly” … ie quickly … just sayin’ … ) 😉

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    ToSY, I suspect all your questions are rhetorical … I’ve also noticed you rarely answer other people’s questions … not good for a healthy relationship, BTW, toleration at the very least … Lefties are generally less guarded than Right Whingers, BTW … just sayin’ …

    Knowledge is power (some think) … others prefer relationship risk … leads to a better understanding … so what does your family consist of, ToSY? Or if that’s too difficult what do you do for a living? Or how old are you? Just askin’ 😉

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I watched “The Angry Silence” today … I remember seeing it when I was an 11 yo in England and even then thinking how powerful the story was … these days with a boit of knowledge and experience behind me I can see how well it portrays the worst of both sides of IR and the impact on families … maybe due for a modern remake …

  111. public toilet permalink
    June 21, 2012 6:28 pm

    What a crock.

    You might just as well claim that ignorance reduces crime.

  112. TB Queensland permalink
    June 21, 2012 6:32 pm

    Ya can’t argue with The Science.

    Jesus Fucking Christ! ToSY … that explains all the cheating, lying, deceit, thieving, greed, corruption and self centred pricks who go to Confession every week and then go out and do it agin … till the next Confession! (or whatever the “new age” term is … obviously designed to camouflage its real purpose … ahh that’s right … reconciliation … with whom?

  113. JAWS permalink
    June 21, 2012 6:32 pm

    “I watched “The Angry Silence” today … I remember seeing it when I was an 11 yo in England….”

    The Angry Silence ay……….?

    Given the title and your age when you saw it I guess it was a Silent Movie 🙂

  114. TB Queensland permalink
    June 21, 2012 6:34 pm

    HD, I take it you were replying to, ToSY as well?

    So what about us agnostics and athiests … just immoral dicks who rampage througth society with no concern about heaven or hell …

  115. TB Queensland permalink
    June 21, 2012 6:36 pm

    Given the title and your age when you saw it I guess it was a Silent Movie

    Are you a sexist and racist too, Wally? Don’t show yer iggorance!

  116. el gordo permalink
    June 21, 2012 6:40 pm

    Confession is a feel good moment for the soul, but the whole thing is a fkn crock.

  117. el gordo permalink
    June 21, 2012 6:46 pm

    ‘Lefties are generally less guarded than Right Whingers’

    Interesting theory, worth debating.

  118. June 21, 2012 6:50 pm

    ‘what do you do for a living?’

    I’m a Plagiarist.

  119. el gordo permalink
    June 21, 2012 6:58 pm

    Still looking for the ‘real left’ and ended up at the Australian Fabians.

    ‘…we live at a time when it is far from clear what socialism is. The term itself has largely gone out of use in polite society. The world which shaped the classic positions of the left in the 20th century has changed, and continues to do so.

    ‘This is as a result both of the triumph of global capitalism, and the long hegemony of the neo-liberal governments which served its purposes, and of deeper social, technological and cultural forces.

    ‘Confronting these changes, and faced with the apparent discrediting of many of its own former beliefs, the left throughout the world is searching for new definitions.’

  120. public toilet permalink
    June 21, 2012 7:01 pm

    Yes, TB.

    I’m incredulous that anyone actually believes that people will become innately criminal if they don’t have some made up load of shit to frighten them into morally sound behavior.

  121. public toilet permalink
    June 21, 2012 7:04 pm

    I am living proof that that is bullshit.

  122. June 21, 2012 7:09 pm

    ‘I’m incredulous that anyone actually believes that people will become innately criminal if they don’t have some made up load of shit to frighten them into morally sound behavior.’

    That link provoked the expected reaction ;-), and I treat such studies with large dollops of scepticism, but why mischaracterise what it actually says?

  123. public toilet permalink
    June 21, 2012 7:16 pm

    I am in a place where I can’t read the article…so I blame the loaded nature of the title.

    trolling me is meanspirited

  124. June 21, 2012 7:33 pm

    “The key finding is that, controlling for each other, a nation’s rate of belief in hell predicts lower crime rates, but the nation’s rate of belief in heaven predicts higher crime rates, and these are strong effects”

  125. TB Queensland permalink
    June 21, 2012 7:40 pm

    what do you do for a living?’

    I’m a Plagiarist.

    An academic … I rest my case …

    Still no answers … just questions …

    … and I treat such studies with large dollops of scepticism, but why mischaracterise what it actually says?

    And platonic statements … explain yourself, sir! How did, HD, “mischaracterise” … ?

  126. TB Queensland permalink
    June 21, 2012 7:56 pm

    The finding surfaced from a comprehensive analysis of 26 years of data involving 143,197 people in 67 countries.

    WOW! What a cohort … Australia’s Census shows 14,000,000 people who are “religious” … that’s just one country!

    ToSY’s link = 5,500 interviews per year over 26 years … that’s 82 people per country per year … .. hilarious … academic nonsense …

  127. TB Queensland permalink
    June 21, 2012 8:00 pm

    That link provoked the expected reaction

    Here’ a reaction …

  128. el gordo permalink
    June 21, 2012 8:31 pm

    The simmering untold story…

    http://lpickering.net/item/8305

  129. TB Queensland permalink
    June 21, 2012 8:34 pm

    I’d read tha, egg, if I could!

  130. el gordo permalink
    June 21, 2012 8:38 pm

    Read it tomorrow TB, this story is a sleeper.

  131. JAWS permalink
    June 21, 2012 10:00 pm

    So single currencies prevent War ay ?

    What was America using as a currency in the lead up to the 1860s ?

  132. June 22, 2012 9:39 am

    I think I said some time ago that the protection of Thomson pointed to something deeper and far more widespread in the trade union movement. McClelland appears to have lightly blown a whistle here. This could get very ugly.

  133. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    June 22, 2012 9:42 am

    True, McClelland has given the press a reason to start to report on that sordid issue again.

  134. JAWS permalink
    June 22, 2012 9:56 am

    McClelland aint exactly a member of the Gillard Fan Club these days.

    Rudd has started his move

  135. June 22, 2012 11:35 am

    “The simmering untold story…”

    That’s quite a find el gordo… !

  136. June 22, 2012 11:39 am

    Pickering posted that on Facebook I think, and it got deleted…..or he got banned….or something.

  137. JAWS permalink
    June 22, 2012 11:48 am

    Alan Jones wasall excited about a story that he said was bubbling underneath Gillard and Shorten in relation to her time at Slater & Gordon and her de facto relationship just this morning.

    He signed it off promising “and I’ll have a lot more this say about that sometime soon”

    He’ll take a lot of “silencing” with Singo as his chief backer

  138. armchair opinionator permalink
    June 22, 2012 12:21 pm

    Gillard and Shorten in relation to her time at Slater & Gordon and her de facto relationship just this morning.

    And how is that relevant to anything now?

    Her majesty’s loyal opposition feeling it’s time for a ‘new’ scandal/piece of dirt to grace the front pages?

    They don’t trawl over this kind of shit for male politicians.

  139. June 22, 2012 12:30 pm

    They don’t trawl over this kind of shit for male politicians

    Craig Thomson?

  140. JAWS permalink
    June 22, 2012 12:31 pm

    “They don’t trawl over this kind of shit for male politicians.”

    Well what’s Thomson…………….. ?

    It’s the sisterhood’s time to feel the sting of the blowtorch

  141. JAWS permalink
    June 22, 2012 12:36 pm

    With McClelland being firmly in the Rudd camp I reckon Rudd has decided to “unleash hell” upon her.

    Possibly he now realizes that he needs to push the envelope again otherwise he’ll just run out of time and he’ll have no hope of snatching victory (not that he realistically has a chance anyway)

    He’s going for broke

  142. TB Queensland permalink
    June 22, 2012 2:21 pm

    It’s the sisterhood’s time to feel the sting of the blowtorch

    Jo Beths had enough!

  143. June 22, 2012 2:26 pm

    With McClelland being firmly in the Rudd camp I reckon Rudd has decided to “unleash hell” upon her.

    Possibly. In fact probably. But then there’s a certain cover up from Rudd’s Queensland Govt days……..

  144. el gordo permalink
    June 22, 2012 3:41 pm

    ‘not that he realistically has a chance anyway’

    If Rudd confronts Julia over the winter break, with a bunch of powerbrokers in tow…he has a shit file on her which dwarfs Craig’s fiasco…step aside or I’ll dump on you.

    This far out from the election he can still clutch victory from the jaws of defeat.

  145. TB Queensland permalink
    June 22, 2012 4:07 pm

    That’s funny …

    JAWS of defeat … 😆

  146. el gordo permalink
    June 22, 2012 4:12 pm

    Thanks TB…I call it whimsy.

  147. June 22, 2012 4:44 pm

    el gordo does have a certain way with words.

  148. TB Queensland permalink
    June 22, 2012 5:01 pm

    Reblogged this on Blogocrats.

  149. June 22, 2012 5:09 pm

    Good Lord, have you resurrected Blogocrats TB…?

  150. TB Queensland permalink
    June 22, 2012 5:17 pm

    LOL! How the fk did that happen! So that’s what the Reblogged button does … I must still have access to Blogocrats as an author … see what curiosity does?

    A mate of mine once used the Disabled toilet in our local club (I told him they don’t work that’s why they’re disabled 😆 ) … anyhoo … seeing a big red button — he pushed it …

    Jesus fkn Christ …. you should have heard the racket … he casually strolled out … bright red, eyes wide open and very pursed lips … as all hell broke loose, with people trying get into the toilet … when asked why he’d done it, he said … I really don’t know … I just did …

  151. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    June 22, 2012 5:17 pm

    That’s fantastic TB, can we comment there?

  152. TB Queensland permalink
    June 22, 2012 5:28 pm

    Fuckwit™

    Where? The disabled toilet? or Blogocrats?

    I’d say neither ’cause you would be banned at both venues … (chuckle, chuckle)

  153. June 22, 2012 6:12 pm

    Gawd, you’re all a bit slow. Blogocrats has always been there. That is decidedly creepy..August ’09 and we’re still here, which is even more creepy.

  154. June 22, 2012 6:15 pm

    TB, stop it. Nobody has ever banned anyone. If you want to big note yourself, at least tell the truth. If you recall, Blogocrats was set up by reb and Joni who had a parting of the ways. Choofs back to own blog.

  155. JAWS permalink
    June 22, 2012 6:19 pm

    Oh FFS

    “TB, stop it. Nobody has ever banned anyone. If you want to big note yourself, at least tell the truth.”

    Note that TB said ……………………….”… (chuckle, chuckle)”

  156. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    June 22, 2012 6:20 pm

    Well, at least I’m no longer banned.

    That’s nice.

  157. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    June 22, 2012 6:22 pm

    I’m off for a major surfing holiday tomorrow. Hope it remains cold in Melbourne!

    Postings might be thin, so many people will have to amuse themselves!

  158. TB Queensland permalink
    June 22, 2012 6:39 pm

    C’mon, MIn, even, Wally, got the joke … 🙄

    ToM probably didn’t …

    Why’s everyone so, precious? 😯

  159. June 22, 2012 9:20 pm
      “Why’s everyone so, precious? “

      i think it happens when people take blogging too seriously…

      For some, like the TPS mob, they’re convinced they’re going to change the world. For others, like me, it’s just a huge fkn joke!

      I mean, how could anyone take a blog seriously that’s called “gutter trash” or “daily trash” seriously, yet there’s no shortage of people who think I ought to be taking blogging more seriously*

      *or in other words, be a bit more Gillard/Labor sympathetic.

  160. el gordo permalink
    June 22, 2012 10:42 pm

    ‘they’re convinced they’re going to change the world.’

    Suddenly discovered… picked up by the young sophisticates out for a laff, a bit of nooze to hold in suspended animation until the appropriate moment arrives…to discuss stuff of worth.

    Do they go to TPS? No, they are humourless.

    In contrast, The Daily Trash is almost ready to blossom with their slogan ‘it’s just a huge fkn joke!’

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