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And then they came for those who laughed

January 8, 2015

image

Mission accomplished. Who can forget the image of George W Bush declaring the so-called “war on terrorism” had been fought and won by the “coalition of the willing” in the wake of the attack on New York’s twin towers back in 2001.

12 months earlier Australia was in a buoyant mood, hosting the Olympic Games in Sydney to worldwide acclaim and much fanfare.

Since then much has changed. Since the attack on the twin towers, the desperate and farcical search for WMD, the leap from Osama Bin Laden to Saddam Hussein and the eventual demise of both the Howard and Bush governments, the West has endured a tenuous and strained relationship with the Middle East.

The West has maintained that its fight isn’t with Islam as such, but with terrorists, with both Bush and Obama at pains to stress that “Islam is a peaceful religion” almost through gritted teeth as they announce the next tranche of strikes in Iraq or Afghanistan.

It’s a facade that’s becoming harder to maintain in light of recent events, with beheadings of innocent westerners in the Middle East ostensibly carried out in the name of Islam, the hostage crisis in Sydney and the terrorist attacks in Paris.

Of course, the media is playing its acquiescent role predictably.  Quiet diplomacy front page news does not make, so images of bloodshed are splattered across our screens and any association with terrorist organisations broadcast around the world whether verified or not.

It it would be ludicrous and hilarious if it wasn’t so serious.

It’s the old boiling frog syndrome. Remember, it wasn’t that long ago that Australia’s PM went to great lengths to insist that Australia’s role in Iraq would be humanitarian only. Fast forward a few months and now we’re contemplating how long our troops will be on the ground and how many more may be need to be deployed.

Similarly, I wonder how long the thin veneer of “Islam is a religion of peace” message will be maintained by Western diplomats and the media, when it may be more politically convenient and electorally palpable to dispense with these rhetorical pleasantries if and when it becomes necessary to escalate the military action.

it may well just be a matter of time.

 

 

 

 

 

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312 Comments leave one →
  1. January 8, 2015 9:31 pm

    Nice thoughtful piece Reb.

  2. January 8, 2015 10:14 pm

    That`s a great image of the `Ministry Of Truth` reb

    +

    The irony must also sting teh-west that years before new-york911, the old-ussr/russia complained about `islamic-tewwa` creating a certain amount of havoc within its borders, but teh-west preferred to ignore those warnings and keep beating-up on russia. Now the shoe is on the other foot, they are now singing russias `islamic-tewwa` tune.

  3. egg permalink
    January 9, 2015 7:22 am

    ‘Similarly, I wonder how long the thin veneer of “Islam is a religion of peace” message will be maintained ….’

    For as long as it takes, cognitive dissonance is difficult to shake.

    We could spit the dummy, round up all bearded men of Middle Eastern extraction and read out the riot act.

    PM: ‘We have gathered you all here today at the Olympic stadium to inform you that god is not great and if any of you are caught watching porn we’ll cut your right hand off.’

  4. Tom R permalink
    January 9, 2015 7:52 am

    Its the old boiling frog syndrome. Remember, it wasn’t that long ago that Australia’s PM went to great lengths to insist that Australia’s role in Iraq would be humanitarian only.

    I expect yabot to use this mercilessly, and for shorten to cowtail along behind him, as has become his custom when in reality the line should be drawn into the sand.

    Watching yabot standing there yesterday at the #SAFires and instead of offering comfort and support, launched into a “we will not succumb to tewwa” rant, and then the article cutting to heavily armed officers patrolling parliament house …. :facepalm:

    But, we should not allow extremists of any ilk, be it political or religious, dictate our actions. But, this goes both ways too. Does it now mean that in order to be “free”, papers must start printing satire of Muhammad? Particularly if it is out of character for them? I would say not, as that also means that their actions have been dictated by the radicals.

    Instead, and I have seen this mentioned in various places, this appears to be a better reaction

    Charlie Hebdo is planning to continue printing its magazine next week. As chairman of the British Cartoonists’ Association, I am calling on my fellow cartoonists to join me in donating a free drawing. We should support them materially. We must also make a statement.

    Don’t fool yourselves that this is about Islam. It was the Islamists’ secularist enemy Bashar al-Assad who got his thugs to break the fingers of the Syrian cartoonist Ali Ferzat four years ago. The Palestinian cartoonist Naji al-Ali was murdered in London in 1987 by a student who claims to have been a double agent for Mossad and the PLO. The British cartoonists’ names in the Gestapo death list were just another manifestation of how hateful laughter is to despots throughout history. Which is why, now more than ever, we mustn’t stop laughing this latest bunch of murderous clowns to scorn.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-martin-rowson

    It is far better to just laugh (which why referring to isis as Daesh is a better approach), however, like you appear to fear reb, I am sure that our powers that be will play right into their hands, and fight atrocity with atrocity.

  5. Tom R permalink
    January 9, 2015 8:11 am

    btw reb, that was an outstanding article, one of your best at least in my memory. The mountain air must be doing some good for ya.

  6. Tom R permalink
    January 9, 2015 8:17 am

    Ouch!

  7. Tom R permalink
    January 9, 2015 8:55 am

  8. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 9, 2015 8:59 am

    What a fucking stupid comment that is, TomR.

    Nobody is stopping idiots like Carlton or anyone else from attacking Jews. Leftist anti-Semitism goes all the way back to Marx. Of course they whine when the are called out for it. Carlton hasn’t been gunned down for his efforts and that is not likely to happen unless he grows a pair and attacks the Islamic Death Cult.

  9. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 9, 2015 9:10 am

    “Who can forget the image of George W Bush declaring the so-called “war on terrorism” had been fought and won by the “coalition of the willing” in the wake of the attack on New York’s twin towers back in 2001.”

    What I do remember is the defeat of Saddam Hussein, the adoption of a democratic constitution and 60% of the Iraqi electorate getting purple dye on their fingers so that they could vote, even though they were threatened with death for doing so. I remember the left squealing for immediate withdrawal from Iraq because they were enraged that Iraq may become a democratic country.

    I remember the influx of foreign jihadis and leftist anger being directed at the coalition of the willing even though most Iraqi civilian deaths were caused by jihadi terrorist attacks. I remember the jihadis being driven back and largely defeated. And I remember Obama promising to get America out of Iraq and crowing about doing so even though it was against military advice. Funnily enough he hasn’t taken credit for the resurgence of terrorism in the region and the rise of ISIS.

    The currrent battle against the Islamic Death Cult is just a new phase in a very old war. It is a global struggle of civilisation against barbarism. Australia has an existential interest in this struggle and should play its part both at home and abroad.

  10. Tom R permalink
    January 9, 2015 9:16 am

    Nobody is stopping idiots like Carlton or anyone else from attacking Jews.

    ROFL. Who’s Carlton working for now? 😯

    because they were enraged that Iraq may become a democratic country.

    You really do say some of the strangest things. I think you will find it was the “puppet” part of the alleged “democracy” people were not in favour of.

  11. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 9, 2015 9:21 am

    “Of course, the media is playing its acquiescent role predictably.”

    Indeed. By criticising Charlie Hebdo for a lack of “common sense” as the Financial Times did or by refusing to run the cartoons which satirise the Prophet or by running headlines like “France faces rising tide of Islamophobia”. In fact anti-Semitism is a much bigger problem than “Islamophobia” in France and most of it is perpetrated by the Islamic Death Cult.

  12. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 9, 2015 9:23 am

    “Who’s Carlton working for now?”

    Fucking genius comment that – is there some obligation to continue employing dumb bigots like Cunt Carlton?

  13. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 9, 2015 9:25 am

    You seem to miss the point that there is a difference between freedom of speech and an obligation to provide a platform to spittle-flecked loonies like Carlton.

  14. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 9, 2015 9:26 am

    That old dog-whistler Obama must be pleased. The killers were only following his lead: “The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam.”

  15. Tom R permalink
    January 9, 2015 9:36 am

    is there some obligation to continue employing dumb bigots like Cunt Carlton?

    Was there an obligation to force him to apologize for dong basically what charlie hebdo does? And what he had been doing for years.

    To see the smh try and portray itself as “free speech” warrior ignores it’s own past as gutless panderer to vested interests.

    You seem to miss the point that there is a difference between freedom of speech and an obligation to provide a platform to spittle-flecked loonies like Carlton.

    And yet not long ago there was an argument over if it was apparently legal to be a bigot or not?

    Which side of the divide were you on?

  16. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 9, 2015 9:41 am

    Suicidal psychopaths without religion don’t have a purpose, in developed countries they’re likely to get some medical treatment, or legal enforcement.

    There is plenty in the Koran that gives those psychopathic types comfort in carrying out murder, they finish up being regarded (at least by themselves) as martyrs rather than murderous nutcases.

    I suspect the main ingredient in a terrorist is severe psychosis rather than principle.

  17. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 9, 2015 9:46 am

    You are being wilfully obtuse, TomR.

    Of course it should be legal to be a bigot and it should be legal for publishers to decide whether they employ bigots. It is quite simple, really. Which bit of this do you not get?

  18. Tom R permalink
    January 9, 2015 9:53 am

    The killers were only following his lead:

    Wow, do you listen to nothing but fuxnews to get such a limited view on what was actually said?

    True democracy demands that citizens cannot be thrown in jail because of what they believe, and that businesses can be opened without paying a bribe. It depends on the freedom of citizens to speak their minds and assemble without fear, and on the rule of law and due process that guarantees the rights of all people.

    In other words, true democracy — real freedom — is hard work. Those in power have to resist the temptation to crack down on dissidents. In hard economic times, countries must be tempted — may be tempted to rally the people around perceived enemies, at home and abroad, rather than focusing on the painstaking work of reform.

    ….

    That is what we saw play out in the last two weeks, as a crude and disgusting video sparked outrage throughout the Muslim world. Now, I have made it clear that the United States government had nothing to do with this video, and I believe its message must be rejected by all who respect our common humanity.
    It is an insult not only to Muslims, but to America as well — for as the city outside these walls makes clear, we are a country that has welcomed people of every race and every faith. We are home to Muslims who worship across our country. We not only respect the freedom of religion, we have laws that protect individuals from being harmed because of how they look or what they believe. We understand why people take offense to this video because millions of our citizens are among them.

    I know there are some who ask why we don’t just ban such a video. And the answer is enshrined in our laws: Our Constitution protects the right to practice free speech.

    Here in the United States, countless publications provoke offense. Like me, the majority of Americans are Christian, and yet we do not ban blasphemy against our most sacred beliefs. As President of our country and Commander-in-Chief of our military, I accept that people are going to call me awful things every day — (laughter) — and I will always defend their right to do so. (Applause.)

    ………

    And on this we must agree: There is no speech that justifies mindless violence. (Applause.) There are no words that excuse the killing of innocents. There’s no video that justifies an attack on an embassy. There’s no slander that provides an excuse for people to burn a restaurant in Lebanon, or destroy a school in Tunis, or cause death and destruction in Pakistan.

    ……

    It is time to marginalize those who — even when not directly resorting to violence — use hatred of America, or the West, or Israel, as the central organizing principle of politics. For that only gives cover, and sometimes makes an excuse, for those who do resort to violence.

    The future must not belong to those who target Coptic Christians in Egypt — it must be claimed by those in Tahrir Square who chanted, “Muslims, Christians, we are one.” The future must not belong to those who bully women — it must be shaped by girls who go to school, and those who stand for a world where our daughters can live their dreams just like our sons. (Applause.)

    The future must not belong to those corrupt few who steal a country’s resources — it must be won by the students and entrepreneurs, the workers and business owners who seek a broader prosperity for all people. Those are the women and men that America stands with; theirs is the vision we will support.

    The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam. But to be credible, those who condemn that slander must also condemn the hate we see in the images of Jesus Christ that are desecrated, or churches that are destroyed, or the Holocaust that is denied. (Applause.)

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/09/25/remarks-president-un-general-assembly

    Of course, you can continue to try and pretend it means something different, but that won’t change the facts.

  19. Tom R permalink
    January 9, 2015 9:55 am

    Which bit of this do you not get?

    Well, just for a start, the bit where the smh claims that mocking one religion is “free speech”, but calling another one out for what they are actually doing is “anti-Semitic”

  20. Tom R permalink
    January 9, 2015 9:57 am

    There is plenty in the Koran that gives those psychopathic types comfort in carrying out murder

    The Bible has it’s fair share too don’t forget. An eye for an eye (in the same book that promotes ‘turn the other cheek”?)

  21. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 9, 2015 10:05 am

    “There is plenty in the Koran that gives those psychopathic types comfort in carrying out murder, they finish up being regarded (at least by themselves) as martyrs rather than murderous nutcases.

    I suspect the main ingredient in a terrorist is severe psychosis rather than principle.”

    The Koran gives normal people “permission” to do things they would otherwise not do. If you think most of us would not do that sort of thing you are deluded. Throughout history ordinary people have done the most vile things on a mass scale when given permission to do so by a king or a priest or a mob.

    I suspect the main ingredient in a jihadist is a strong religious belief and a desire to follwo the teachings of Islam as implemented by the first three generations of Muslims.

    If you want to understand the principle try reading some of the literature like “The Management of Savagery”. It is anything but the ravings of a psychotic. This is from the Washington Post:

    The seeds of today’s brutality were perhaps sown long ago in a 2006 book called “The Management of Savagery,” wrote expert Lawrence Wright in the New Yorker. The book, written by a radical Islamist thinker named Abu Bakr Naji, details patterns of “abominable savagery” witnessed in both the Islamic State and its earlier incarnations. According to this English translation, it calls for an “administration of savagery” and a merciless campaign to polarize the population, attract adherents and establish a pure Sunni caliphate. “We must make this battle very violent, such that death is a heartbeat away, so that the two groups will realize that entering this battle will frequently lead to death,” the book says.

  22. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 9, 2015 10:07 am

    “The Bible has it’s fair share too don’t forget. An eye for an eye (in the same book that promotes ‘turn the other cheek”?)”

    Funnily enough it is not Christians who are responsible for 90% of the world’s terrorist attacks. But you just stick to your slithering false eqivalence – it is your specialty.

  23. Tom R permalink
    January 9, 2015 10:14 am

    Funnily enough it is not Christians who are responsible for 90% of the world’s terrorist attacks

    Not currently, no, but then again, he who is without sin … and all that 😉

  24. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 9, 2015 10:16 am

    “Well, just for a start, the bit where the smh claims that mocking one religion is “free speech”, but calling another one out for what they are actually doing is “anti-Semitic””

    Stupid evasion. And nothing to do with the point I made.

    Apart from that your comment is completely idiotic. Free speech includes, inter alia, the right to anti-semitic spech. There is nothing inconsistent here.

    Carlton is furiously frothing against his own mental disintigration as he becomes increasingly unhinged and unfunny.

  25. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 9, 2015 10:17 am

    “Not currently, no, but then again, he who is without sin … and all that “

    Now you are just trolling me. I know you are not that stupid.

  26. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 9, 2015 10:20 am

    Maybe Tom R, but it seems christianity has (largely) given up-
    * The Spanish Inquisition
    * Burning witches
    * ‘Convert or die’ recruitment to the cause
    * Murder of the ‘Piss Christ’ artist

    It may not conform with your prejudices, but nutcases seem to be able to take more comfort from the koran than the bible.
    ======
    SB, I’d say they’re the writings of an articulate psychopath.
    ======
    (Is there a Jewish jihad on Mike Carlton?)

  27. Tom R permalink
    January 9, 2015 10:25 am

    (largely)

    a pertinent insertion there yomm 😉

    Let’s not forget about certain areas being “bombed back to the middle ages” and ” (largely) ” seems kinda limp doesn’t it?

    but nutcases seem to be able to take more comfort from the koran than the bible.

    Well, the ones making all the news lately in a big splash, surely, but then again there is more than that happening

    http://king-dave.newsvine.com/_news/2011/11/03/8623068-answered-prayers-the-worlds-most-prolific-serial-killers-are-devout-christians-coincidence-or-men-of-perfect-faith?lite

  28. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 9, 2015 10:40 am

    “I’d say they’re the writings of an articulate psychopath.”

    ToM, if the psychopath is characterised by a lack of empathy, then you may be right. My view is that the term is usually reserved for someone who is incapable of empathy. On the other hand, while some jihadists may be in that category, it is a very small part of any population that is so afflicted. On the other hand most jihadists, by virtue of their religious commitment, have eliminated their empathy for kaffir. That is different to being incapable of empathy and it is something we are all capable of.

    This has happened a lot in human history in various guises as I noted above (but that should not stop us from now fighting against it TomR, even if that involves throwing stones).

  29. TB Queensland permalink
    January 9, 2015 10:46 am

    Throughout history ordinary people have done the most vile things on a mass scale when given permission to do so by a king or a priest or a mob.

    A pope …

    Funnily enough it is not Christians who are responsible for 90% of the world’s terrorist attacks.

    Tell that to the South Americans …

  30. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 9, 2015 10:47 am

    Yep, and there’s no doubt that there are more acts of cold blooded murder by nutcases in the name of islam than by christian nutcases.

  31. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 9, 2015 10:48 am

    Really TB. Was Allede etc about religion ?

  32. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 9, 2015 10:55 am

    (Is there a Jewish jihad on Mike Carlton?)

    Carlton resigned because he was being forced by his newspaper to apologise for the ‘offence’ his column caused jews.

    There is a religious war going on, it’s christianity vs islam. Western leaders thinks that god is calling [through them of course] to meddle in the name of [christian] democracy.

    Tony Blair is on record saying that he answered to a higher authority than parliament and he will be judged for his actions by god and history.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/5373525/Tony-Blair-believed-God-wanted-him-to-go-to-war-to-fight-evil-claims-his-mentor.html

    as has bush:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

    Onward christian soldiers…marching off to war

    tony abbott, well he’s spent his whole life whoring warring for christ.

  33. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 9, 2015 10:56 am

    As I’ve said before SB, it isn’t simply about religion and the comfort nutcases can take from the koran.

    There is a significant cultural element.

    It’s the simmering anger and general grumpiness that seems to pervade much of the ME. Anger is an emotion that is routinely applied in exchanges.

    If anger is routine, violence is more likely to be socially acceptable.

  34. TB Queensland permalink
    January 9, 2015 11:04 am

    Really TB. Was Allede etc about religion ?

    Allede? Or do you mean Allende?

  35. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 9, 2015 11:07 am

    Is there a fatwa on Mike Carlton?

    (I remember when Mike Carlton was funny and biting, rather than just senseless and bitter)

  36. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 9, 2015 11:24 am

    Yep, and there’s no doubt that there are more acts of cold blooded murder by nutcases in the name of islam than by christian nutcases.

    You sure about that ToM?

    Are Christians more violent than Muslims?
    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/are-christians-more-violent-than-muslims/

    …Seven times more people have died in Christian wars: 113.8 million compared to the 16.4 million who died in Muslim wars…

    …Christians have killed eight times more people in democides than Muslims: 76.5 million compared to 9.3 million. Almost the same rate as for war…

    How many people have been killed by Christians since Biblical times?
    http://articles.exchristian.net/2002/10/how-many-people-have-been-killed-by.php

  37. TB Queensland permalink
    January 9, 2015 11:26 am

    It’s the simmering anger and general grumpiness that seems to pervade much of the ME. Anger is an emotion that is routinely applied in exchanges.

    Mostly caused by Western Christian invasions:

    Crusaders

    WWI

    WWII

    Gulf War I

    Gulf War II

    They all had God on their side too …

    You’d be fkn grumpy and angry too …

    … and those “little” events would have shaped your culture pretty strongly … none of them pleasant …

    … the Roman Invasion and the Battle of Hastings influence the culture of Great Britain today … as do the Battle of Culloden, Flodden, Bannockburn for the Scots …

  38. TB Queensland permalink
    January 9, 2015 11:28 am

    Ask the Aboriginal people what they think about the early (and some contemporary) Christians …

  39. TB Queensland permalink
    January 9, 2015 11:32 am

    Now you are just trolling me. I know you are not that stupid.

    Lol! And who leapt into battle for the cross …

  40. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 9, 2015 11:46 am

    …(I remember when Mike Carlton was funny and biting, rather than just senseless and bitter)

    he still is [funny and biting]
    Except the jews can’t take accept any of it thrown in their direction. He got death threats and very nasty abuse etc

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-06/smh-columnist-mike-carlton-resigns-following-gaza-column-furore/5651470

    One of the tweets sent by Carlton read: “After a fortnight of being called Nazi, Jew-hating slime, I told a few people to f*** off. We do that in this country occasionally.”

  41. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 9, 2015 11:52 am

    Ask the Aboriginal people what they think about the early (and some contemporary) Christians …

    They are still trying to recover from the missionary influence.

  42. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 9, 2015 11:56 am

    Fine, christians were pretty brutal during the middle ages. We all agree.

    Which of the above wars you nominate were fought in the name of christianity?

    Contemporary wars are fought over oil, territory, wealth and power, not over religion.

    I don’t see the Vietnamese and Cambodians throwing bombs at us over their relatively recent experience with the west.

  43. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 9, 2015 11:58 am

    I don’t see indigenous people bombing cities either, despite all the hardship and opprcssion they have experienced.

  44. January 9, 2015 12:04 pm

    “”Mostly caused by Western Christian invasions””

    No doubt a major contributing factor, as is abject generational poverty which seems to getting worse rather than better. Not to mention watching your family and friends being blown to pieces by those who are coming to liberate you.

    If all you have is the dusty sandals on your feet then you really have nothing to lose by resorting to violence yourself.

  45. January 9, 2015 12:07 pm

    BTW it’s interesting to read the light hearted tone of our discussion back in 2012 over the original cartoon furore compared to the more serious nature of our comments today….

    https://theguttertrash.com/2012/09/20/muslims-fuck-em-if-they-cant-take-a-joke/

  46. Meta permalink
    January 9, 2015 12:16 pm

    (“The Australian prime minister said he didn’t want history to record that we were, ‘party to turning such a blind eye’.”)

  47. TB Queensland permalink
    January 9, 2015 12:23 pm

    Which of the above wars you nominate were fought in the name of christianity?

    All of them you dork … for God and country! For God and the King! For God and the Emperor! For God and the Pope!

    I don’t see the Vietnamese and Cambodians throwing bombs at us over their relatively recent experience with the west.

    Jesus fkn Christ! because they whipped the fkn pants off the West!

    We don’t ALWAYS win (?)

    ===========================================

    If all you have is the dusty sandals on your feet then you really have nothing to lose by resorting to violence yourself.

    Well said, sreb, holidays are certainly good for you!

  48. TB Queensland permalink
    January 9, 2015 12:29 pm

    reb permalink

    September 20, 2012 3:42 pm

    “do I get an apology now or later?”

    I’ll send a written one, together with a cheque for your Interstate “correspondence” and associated expenses…

    Very interesting reading indeed! Sreb! Still waiting …

    … that Tangalooma job was quite harrowing … especially on that fkn helicopter pad!

    No wonder you can go on holidays and piss my payment up some bamboo shack wall … Rupert much? 🙄

    BTW the new sign is in the front garden …

  49. egg permalink
    January 9, 2015 12:30 pm

    Hitler was a Christian, but probably lapsed.

  50. January 9, 2015 12:31 pm

    BTW the new sign is in the front garden …

    Can we get a pic?

  51. TB Queensland permalink
    January 9, 2015 12:32 pm

    😉 @ Meta …

  52. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 9, 2015 12:41 pm

    “If all you have is the dusty sandals on your feet then you really have nothing to lose by resorting to violence yourself.”

    Poverty has little to do with it. Many if not most jihadists are wealthy (like bin Laden) or middle class wankers. Something they have in common with their mates on the left.

    “All of them you dork … for God and country! For God and the King! For God and the Emperor! For God and the Pope!”

    Most of them were fought fought for national security or geopolitical reasons.

  53. January 9, 2015 12:45 pm

    “Poverty has little to do with it.”

    I’ll just let that comment get some air for a little while…

  54. TB Queensland permalink
    January 9, 2015 1:04 pm

    Something they have in common with their mates on the left.

    And right?

    I’ll just let that comment get some air for a little while…

    Can’t remain “covert” forever … 🙂

    Most of them were fought fought (sic) for national security or geopolitical reasons.

    Mmmm … with nary a thought of god or the godless … my army chaplain would have disagreed … nice chap … bit misguided too tho’ …

  55. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 9, 2015 1:31 pm

    “with nary a thought of god or the godless”

    I didn’t say that. The distinction is between jihadism, fighting in the path of Allah, which has the objective of spreading Islam, and wars which do not have the primary objective the spread of another religion.

    I understand that politicians are merely following advice when they say that the latest atrocity has nothing to do with Islam or that Islam is a religion of peace. The idea seems to be that most Muslims, right now at least, don’t support the jihadists and we don’t want to drive them in that direction.

    The downside is that if we reject Islam as the motivating factor and choose the first platitude that pops into our head, say poverty, then we won’t understand the enemy.

    It is far more sensible to understand that the interpretation adopted by the jihadists is not unreasonable given the religious texts and the practices of the first generations of Muslims. The probelm with religious and nationalist movements is that they put a value of infinity on their goals. Compromise is not possible except in the short term.

  56. Meta permalink
    January 9, 2015 1:40 pm

    (A random ‘blast from the past’: “Many arguments will whirl around this chamber in the next 24 hours or so. We will know soon enough who is wise and who is unwise, what is for the best and what is for the worst, who is right and who is wrong, because these arguments will soon be put to the stern test of events. This government believes that the cause is just and that the justification is overwhelming. May God give all of us—our leaders, our soldiers and our people—strength, wisdom and compassion in the days and months ahead.” [abstracted from the Loon Pond’s excerpt, here])

  57. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 9, 2015 1:41 pm

    “…“Poverty has little to do with it.”…”
    🙄
    you’ve never been a day without food water medicine and shelter!
    Try poverty combined with illiteracy, starvation, ignorance of the outside world with Koran bashing from birth.
    The problem to me isn’t just Islamic fundamentalists, we have our christian fun dies rushing off to conquer them.
    The problem is religion, as long as we have it there will never be peace.

  58. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 9, 2015 1:50 pm

    Roger Harper understands better than most.

  59. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 9, 2015 1:57 pm

    “you’ve never been a day without food water medicine and shelter”

    Most people in that situation are fully occupied scrabbling to survive.

    Revolutionary, nationalist and religious violence have othere motivations and are generally a luxury of the better off. Western leftists are classic. There is a hole in their miserable souls that they need to fill with vain conspicuous displays of caring and their endless schemes to “help” the victims of the world, most of which make matters worse.

    On the particular issue of jihadist resurgance, this is just another stage in a very long war.

  60. Tom R permalink
    January 9, 2015 1:57 pm

    Roger Harper understands

    Understands?

  61. Tom R permalink
    January 9, 2015 2:02 pm

    and are generally a luxury of the better off.

    If your swivel ever locks up, we’re all fucked!!

  62. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 9, 2015 3:04 pm

    ” for God and country! For God and the King! For God and the Emperor! For God and the Pope!

    With the greatest of respect TB, that’s a complete load of crap. Give up on such lame bulls**t
    ————
    It’s far more than poverty – if it was due to poverty or the gap between haves and have nots, is there any group that would have more justification for violence that Australia’s indigenous population?

    It’s cultural and historical – simmering anger, generations of war, combined with a religion that gives comfort to violent acts, it’s the combination .

  63. egg permalink
    January 9, 2015 3:07 pm

    ‘Try poverty combined with illiteracy, starvation, ignorance of the outside world with Koran bashing from birth.’

    Two brothers born in France, not illiterate, starving or ignorant, but may have had the Koran impressed upon them since birth.

  64. Tom R permalink
    January 9, 2015 3:20 pm

    it’s the combination.

    I AGREE!

    So … let’s bomb ’em! 😯

  65. January 9, 2015 3:22 pm

    , “it’s the combination”

    Like fried rice?

  66. Meta permalink
    January 9, 2015 4:03 pm

    (Yep; knock em off like flied lice; and, as Tony ‘the glass might break’ Abbott almost might say, we (still) have ‘interests’ and ‘values’ and a ‘worldview’ to protect for/against/with/from ‘them’.)

  67. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 9, 2015 4:33 pm

    Malaysia and Indonesia have their issues, like most developing countries.

    But there’s not masses of seething angry, shouting, intolerant types. That’s more of a characteristic of the ME.

    Which is why it is stupid to single out religion as for singular blame.

  68. January 9, 2015 4:52 pm

    Yes, it’s a peculiarity of “developing” predominantly Islamic countries; Indonesia and Malaysia for example, where there tends to be less of vehement hatred towards the West compared to the Middle East.

    It could well be a coincidence but perhaps it’s because those developing nations aren’t presently being bombed to buggery by the West, or perhaps it’s because there’s more widespread societal wealth, health and education – you know, the characteristics that make them by their very nature “developing” nations?

  69. January 9, 2015 4:56 pm

    It’s worth contemplating that people behave in ways that make sense to them at the time. Their behaviour may seem radical, extreme and illogical but it makes sense to them, otherwise they wouldn’t do it.

    Of course, they could just be fucked in the head, which is another possible explanation.

  70. January 9, 2015 5:01 pm

    If all Muslims are held responsible for terrorism, should all Westerners take blame for islamaphobia?

    https://theconversation.com/charlie-hebdo-attack-when-should-we-hold-a-group-responsible-for-a-members-evil-36012

  71. egg permalink
    January 9, 2015 5:06 pm

    The Koran is still the unifying factor, think of the Bali bombing.

  72. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 9, 2015 6:14 pm

    Well reb, at risk of identifying my personal level of maturity, I started doing the adventure travel well over 30 years ago, and therefore feel entitled to make comparisons over that period.

    There was little anti western sentiment in the Middle East, other than Iran, but there was plenty of simmering anger. There wasn’t a sense of personal safety, there was lots of sneering. Transactions (between locals) often seemed to be settled through angry exchanges.

    I don’t recall much western bombing of the place back then.

    I also had my first trip to Central and South America around that time. There was a far more stratified class and wealth division, the US was intervening in domestic politics pretty well non stop, overthrowing legitimate governments and installing dictators that were friendly to them. That is exactly what was going on while I visited.

    There was very little anti western sentiment (that I experienced), just some genuine poverty induced petty theft that didn’t involve violence. There may have been anti American protests, but that didn’t translate to hatred of western people that visited.

    Why would the ME have such an angry culture and South America be so friendly when those people 35 years ago had far more reason to hate people like us?

    When I say there’s an angry culture in the ME, I’m talking about some observations that began over 3 decades ago.

  73. January 9, 2015 6:23 pm

    (For Certain; When blast-from-past chickens come home to roost; the usual suspects are utterly surprised when foreseeable reaping-of-crops-sown occurs; such as hypothetical, flying over known war-zones, taking crusades to other lands for centuries, or triggering `seige-nutters` with 15-years of Government free-hate-speech; all while claiming their own `ethical`myth. Hypothetically, that is. #unsurprisement)

  74. January 9, 2015 6:39 pm

    Fair point Tom.

  75. January 9, 2015 6:41 pm

    “There wasn’t a sense of personal safety, there was lots of sneering. Transactions (between locals) often seemed to be settled through angry exchanges.”

    That must be a pretty fun awful place to live.

  76. egg permalink
    January 9, 2015 6:49 pm

    Follow the wave of Fundamentalism in fashion.

    http://www.thecommentator.com/article/2816/now_and_then_mogadishu_tehran_and_kabul

  77. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 9, 2015 7:12 pm

    Islam discourages-
    * Alcohol
    * Singing
    * Dancing
    * Various forms of art
    * Observing the shape of women

    Why on earth would they be grumpy or angry?

  78. TB Queensland permalink
    January 9, 2015 7:14 pm

    Western leftists are classic

    Oh FFS! Give it a rest!

    With the greatest of respect TB, that’s a complete load of crap. Give up on such lame bulls**t

    BS to you – I was made to swear allegiance to a Queen and God I don’t recognise – or go to jail – and I had a wife and child to support … you know nothing, ToM …

    Its actually about EDUCATION …

    Dinner with friends awaits! Enjoy your evening, all.

  79. January 9, 2015 7:16 pm

    l””””therefore feel entitled””’

    #don`t you always.?

    +

    i””””’just some genuine poverty induced”’#crime

    l””””’talking about some observations””’

    #fascinating, your many `observations` don`t seem to include an `understanding` of the poverty-crime link in your many comments stating how `reasonable` you deem it is to push the lower-paid/un/underemployed wages lower, (while rich/boardroom income jumps in leaps and bounds) nor how difficult it becomes for nations to remove/relieve poverty once it sets in. #teabags

  80. Tom R permalink
    January 9, 2015 7:21 pm

    I don’t recall much western bombing of the place back then.

    Does Israel come under the auspices of “Western” for you?

    There are I think many people to blame for the violence we see coming out of the ME, and the locals and Islam need to take their share of the blame. But so does the West, who, since at least WW!, have happily cut, divided and re-shaped the region into what had currently best suited for their interests (with much bombing involved I hate to say yomm). This has done nothing to help calm already hostile relations between disparate groups already there. Having these agitations between groups is not uncommon globally, however, few other regions have experienced the same level of external machinations western interference has done to further fan the flames as the ME has.

    http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000635#british

  81. Tom R permalink
    January 9, 2015 7:25 pm

    l””””therefore feel entitled””’

    Dryomm(Phd)Esquire

  82. egg permalink
    January 9, 2015 8:24 pm

    The West was attracted by the good oil, which may have had a negative impact on the region, but the roots of Fudamentalism has been gradually evolving for a century.

    At its heart is a desire to return to a golden age, where violence is regarded as not a bad thing.

  83. January 9, 2015 9:20 pm

    abc24, industrial area, outside paris, the two gunmen seem to be cornered in printing factory, `neutralize` planning by `police` being mentioned, according to `negotiator` gunmen want to go as `martyrs`. (#probably final 16-hours now)

  84. January 9, 2015 9:33 pm

    abc24 reporting `gunmen have at least one hostage`

  85. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 9, 2015 9:35 pm

    Yes Tom R, there have been wars across the Middle East for millennia. To state the obvious, this no doubt results in a culture that may be more accepting of fighting and war.

  86. January 9, 2015 10:11 pm

    R”””””””there have been wars across the Middle East for millennia. To state the obvious, this no doubt results in a culture that may be more accepting of fighting and war.””””

    #agree, there is `no-doubt` that under various banners, (teh-west, crusaders, teh-empire, colonial-powers, king/s-and-country/s, ww1-ww2-strategic-oil-reserves) that `our-culture` has been `accepting` of fighting and creating war. Not to mention `our-culture` created the continual festering sore of israel/palesistine, so `our-culture` could ease its conscience of the treatment of the Jews-of-Europe, by dumping them back in the middle-east 2000 years after the romans took over.

  87. January 10, 2015 1:54 am

    just turned over to abc24, there is a 2nd `hostage` situation in france somewhere, in a kosher supermarket, 2-dead, 5-hostages, not sure on number of `gunmen` (via-bbc)

  88. January 10, 2015 2:53 am

    WOW! bbc report, gunmen in kosher supermarket with 5-hostages will shoot his hostages if french-plod move in on gunmen-brothers trapped in print factory. Gunman in supermarket believed to have shot 2-french-plod 24-hours earlier, killing one plod.

  89. January 10, 2015 3:32 am

    bbc reports, french-plod launch simultaneous raids on both locations, two gunmen dead, no report on hostage at print factory. At kosher supermarket one gunman dead, some hostages free, no report on any dead hostages.

  90. January 10, 2015 10:05 am

  91. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 10, 2015 11:10 am

    watch the video

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2015/01/tariq-ramadan-west-terrorism-islam-201519101423177599.html

    …”As much as we condemn the attacks, we need people throughout the world to give the same value to any human life… people are being killed by the same violent extremists in Syria and Iraq, it’s as if this is normal? So twelve [people] in France, [and] this is an international controversy and evokes a reaction, while the others are normal?”…

  92. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 10, 2015 11:26 am

    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/01/paris-charlie-hebdo-cartoons-att-20151810528121783.html

    …Muslims seem to lose either way. They are constantly asked to apologise for crimes they neither committed, nor supported. They, too, are victims of the violence of extremists. Still, they are asked to apologise and somehow atone for these crimes that were committed in the name of their religion. Then they must face the wrath of extremists who attack them for refusing to approve of the methods they view as the only way to defend Islam…

    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/01/muslims-france-charlie-hebdo-me-201518121649556792.html
    Muslims in the news only when they’re behind the gun:

    …Apart from the obvious tragedy, the Charlie Hebdo killings manifest the baseline that Muslim identity is only relevant – and indeed newsworthy – when the subject is standing behind the gun. Not in front of it. In most everywhere in the world, but especially France – the architect of modern Islamophobia…

  93. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 10, 2015 11:53 am

  94. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 10, 2015 12:13 pm

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/charlie-hebdo-paris-attack-brothers-campaign-of-terror-can-be-traced-back-to-algeria-in-1954-9969184.html

    …Charlie Hebdo: Paris attack brothers’ campaign of terror can be traced back to Algeria in 1954 Algeria is the post-colonial wound that still bleeds in France…

  95. Tom R permalink
    January 10, 2015 1:03 pm

  96. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 10, 2015 1:04 pm

    …To state the obvious, this no doubt results in a culture that may be more accepting of fighting and war…

    have they had a choice?

  97. Tom R permalink
    January 10, 2015 1:05 pm

    Ouch

    Women live in fear of men killing them. Men live in fear of women laughing at them.

  98. Tom R permalink
    January 10, 2015 1:08 pm

    To state the obvious,

    Sad but that the obvious had to be stated

    I don’t recall much western bombing of the place back then.

    And that’s from a world re-knowned Xspurt on cultureclubs and travelthings from 30 odd years ago 😉

  99. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 10, 2015 1:17 pm

    Elizabeth Warren: The Trickle-Down Experiment That Began in the Reagan Years Failed the US Middle Class:

  100. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 10, 2015 1:24 pm

    http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/28452-charlie-hebdo-we-must-grieve-the-dead-without-misconstruing-racism-as-democratic-ideal

    …Charlie Hebdo is a controversial magazine by any assessment. Its satirical cartoons characterize its polemical nature and have poked fun at a host of religions over the years, not just Islam. Yet few have been talking about the racism of many of the magazine’s cartoons and how they provocatively push the boundaries between free speech and prejudice…
    …As social media took up the hashtag #JeSuisCharlie in solidarity with Charlie Hebdo, a smaller voice of grief and dissent also emerged: #JeNeSuisPasCharlie – a hashtag that acknowledged the senselessness of the violence involved with the case but also refused to dismiss the history of the magazine ‘s racism…

  101. egg permalink
    January 10, 2015 1:28 pm

    “while the others are normal?”…

    Yes, the Sunni and Shite believe in a return to a golden age, but they can’t agree on the strict interpretation of the Koran and have fought many wars to settle the matter.

    Violence and oppression is the natural state of play in the ME, and if it wasn’t for the oil and stuff the West would have avoided the place.

    Catlicks and Prodies have a bible of fairytales but its benign.

  102. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 10, 2015 1:28 pm

    http://truth-out.org/news/item/28462-a-clash-of-barbarisms-after-paris-attack-how-us-policy-in-middle-east-helps-fuel-extremism

    …”The Western intervention, the Western action in the Middle East, has been creating the ground for all this. This is what I called previously the clash of barbarisms, with a major barbarism represented by Western intervention.” Achcar also discusses the close relationship between the United States and Saudi Arabia, which he calls “the ideological source of the most fanatical, most reactionary interpretation of Islam.”…

  103. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 10, 2015 1:36 pm

    …Violence and oppression is the natural state of play in the ME, and if it wasn’t for the oil and stuff the West would have avoided the place…

    The west should have avoided the place. Ever think a lot of the problem is the result of their meddling interventions, including installing tyrannical dictator puppets whom they later want to assassinate or fund another tyrant to get rid of the first one they installed? Plus their own oil greed – their own perverted version of democracy?

  104. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 10, 2015 1:47 pm

  105. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 10, 2015 1:47 pm

  106. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 10, 2015 1:48 pm

  107. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 10, 2015 1:55 pm

  108. Tom R permalink
    January 10, 2015 2:15 pm

    lol ao, does murdoch realise he’s running his own parody account ❓ :account:

    But those replies fit several editions of pointed barbs into 140 short(?) characters

  109. egg permalink
    January 10, 2015 2:39 pm

    ‘The west should have avoided the place.’

    Greed is Great

    ‘Ever think a lot of the problem is the result of their meddling interventions, including installing tyrannical dictator puppets whom they later want to assassinate or fund another tyrant to get rid of the first one they installed?’

    Yeah that was last century, what is your projection for the next 100 years? According to one retired strategist this ME war with the West could last that long.

  110. egg permalink
    January 10, 2015 6:59 pm

    Murdocracy takes a bat to aunty.

    http://abcnewswatch.blogspot.com.au/2015/01/dont-say-i-word.html

  111. TB Queensland permalink
    January 10, 2015 7:06 pm

    Greed is Great

    That about sums up the rusted right POV of the world … unfortunately the rest of us have to suffer for it when they inadvertently gain control …

  112. Neil of Sydney permalink
    January 10, 2015 7:22 pm

    Hello everybody

    I see Rupert has been mentioned. i do not know much about him but if Rubert gets AO upset he must have something good going for him.

    ” unfortunately the rest of us have to suffer for it when they inadvertently gain control …”

    I see TB of Queensland is still making his stupid comments. Everybody in internet land should know that TB of Queensland voted for Keating to be PM when unemployment was at 11 %. Double what it is now.

    That is all i need to now that TB will always vote for Labor no matter what damage that evil political party does to Australia.

  113. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 10, 2015 7:38 pm

    🙄
    #stupidbaiting

  114. TB Queensland permalink
    January 10, 2015 8:11 pm

    Trolls, KL … the sign is up BTW

  115. January 10, 2015 8:12 pm

    nice rupert tweets armchair, lt is nice to see rupert is as good with twitter as he was with myspace (or reporting facts) #teabag

  116. January 10, 2015 9:20 pm

    Usually l find deveny quite the crank, but l am pleased to see she rubbed noddy`s nose it, glad qld-plod, vic-plod had a good chortle at noddy`s expense too. Heads-up dumpty, there is finally somebody on the interwebs less-bright than you (go get`em tiger), unfortunately for tb, he`s running the state.

  117. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 11, 2015 11:19 am

    …Trolls, KL … the sign is up BTW…

    Got a pic for reb to post TB? And we will probably want to know if it gets de-faced or stolen!

  118. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 11, 2015 12:45 pm

  119. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 11, 2015 1:00 pm

  120. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 11, 2015 1:13 pm

    People from a region that has been wracked with war for centuries, a culture that accepts anger, combined with a religion that promotes intolerance and retribation while suppressing the activities ‘people like us’ enjoy.

    Living in harmony isn’t a great prospect.

  121. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 11, 2015 1:19 pm

    Really, those jihadists must hate the Irish if they don’t tolerate alcohol, singing and dancing.

    Why pick on the French? They hardly ever dance.

  122. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 11, 2015 1:26 pm

    ‘retribution’

  123. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 11, 2015 3:20 pm

    I see you got the al Jazeera email on how to spin the Charlie Hebdo story, KL.

  124. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 11, 2015 3:32 pm

    “Retribation” is exactly what the jihadis want – a return to the murderous primitive ways of the first generations of Islam. They call it the umma rather than the tribe.

  125. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 11, 2015 4:31 pm

    “…a culture that accepts anger, combined with a religion that promotes intolerance and retribation while suppressing the activities ‘people like us’ enjoy.

    Living in harmony isn’t a great prospect…”

    You could be talking about fundy xtians!
    They’re all the same, I wish they would all leave the rest of us out of their religious/ culture wars! Go off somewhere and wipe each other out and leave the rest of us in peace, that includes their political barrackers and hate peddlers.

  126. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 11, 2015 5:26 pm

    I didn’t realise fundy xtians were also opposed to alcohol , singing, dancing, most art… you know the stuff the most civilised people use for leisure.

    Even the Greeks like all that stuff.

  127. Meta permalink
    January 11, 2015 6:39 pm

    (Yes; even the stereotypical Greeks like all that stuff: We are Spartaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

    Elsewise, for any with an interest in alternative medicine and meddled/muddled history, O Therapeftis possibly warrants a ‘quite watchable’ review.)

  128. TB Queensland permalink
    January 11, 2015 8:24 pm

    Why pick on the French? They hardly ever dance.

    You are really becoming your own worst enemy … when did an Irish army ever invade a country?

    Stupid is …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    “Retribation” is exactly what the jihadis want – a return to the murderous primitive ways of the first generations of Islam.

    So what do you want … your god’s son turned the other cheek … ?

    Ever heard of escalation?

    Ever heard the phrase … softly, softly, catchee monkey?

    They call it the umma rather than the tribe.

    Onward christain (it capitalises if I spell the fkn word correctly!) soldiers, then … having been a christain soldier … you and yours pick up a fkn rifle!

    Reading history is quite a bit different to living the shite!

    ===================================

    I didn’t realise fundy xtians were also opposed to alcohol , singing, dancing, most art… you know the stuff the most civilised people use for leisure.

    What shit are you on, ToM? That’s exactly what, Kl is saying!

  129. January 11, 2015 9:15 pm

    “Its actually about EDUCATION …”

    I think you mean “It’s.” As in:

    It’s actually about EDUCATION …

    #justsayin

  130. January 11, 2015 9:17 pm

    “Ever heard the phrase … softly, softly, catchee monkey?

    Oddly enough, I haven’t. However I suspect I’m not missing out on too much.

  131. January 11, 2015 9:18 pm
  132. January 11, 2015 9:25 pm

    “”What shit are you on, ToM?””

    I could be wrong, but I suspect ToM’s been over indulging in “humour” again. Given what’s going on in Paris, it’s practically a crime these days.

    ***Fuck ’em if they can’t take a joke***

    That’s my new motto.

  133. Meta permalink
    January 11, 2015 9:45 pm

    (“It would be a travesty if we were robust in our criticism of everything except that which might do us harm,” Mr Abbott said on Saturday. “We have to be prepared to speak up for our beliefs. We have to be prepared to call things as we see them. “Of course from time to time people will be upset, offended, insulted, humiliated. As a politician I sometimes pick up the paper and think, ‘My God, this is so unfair’ but it is all part of a free society. “It is all part of understanding things better: the clash of ideas, the ability of people to speak very robustly to each other. “Sure, we would like it to be polite but where it is not, so be it, because in the end the cornerstone of progress is free speech.”
    Paris attacks: Australians should not be cowed from speaking freely: Tony Abbott

    But, but, but, I thought we liked robust discussions, with bang-bangs; we were just in Iraq for cordial discussions, about more bang-bangs and for-bucks; we were told that the CoW must use bang-bang force, if its words were to be imbued with any credibility, and that a little bit of killing-in-the-name-of was a judicious enterprise; just as it is, apparently, once again; free-gunbarrel-diplomacy-speech is so confusing!

    Nevertheless, one almost might like to think that what Mr Abbott means, adroitly expressed as it might be in his habitual god-whistling, quasi-solipsistic manner, is that there should be more discussion(s), like those, and about those, and around those, undertaken by journalists at Charlie Hebdo, and at Al Jazeera, and at etcetera; and, perhaps, that politicians and neutral(ising) (para(military-)policing officials ultimately should/n’t resort to no(n)-answers, euphemisms, and/or thought-terminating cliches when being (un)usually explanatory and/or (un)critically queried about sundry activities and interventions, especially those containing a(ny) risk(s) of (in)direct harm(s), narrowly or broadly construed; for undertanding-things-better’s sake, of course.)

  134. egg permalink
    January 11, 2015 10:17 pm

    Abbott should say that god is not all that great, having in the past caused endless misery for those who couldn’t or wouldn’t think outside the square.

  135. January 11, 2015 10:43 pm

    Its a wonder Abbott does not spontaneously combust in own inflammatory rhetorical hypocrisy..

    This is the man who brought you
    * the abolition of 18c
    * Laws criminalising whistle blowers
    * Meta data laws
    * Laws criminalising journalistic sources
    * Cuts to the ABC
    * Abolition of the Australia network
    * Expansion of ASIO and federal powers

    ***Fuck ‘em they are a joke***

    That’s remains my motto.

  136. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 11, 2015 10:51 pm

    ‘humour’

    I was always polite when they tried to sell me a carpet, an elaborate bong or their sister. But I’m f**ked if I’m going to be polite to people that murder cartoonists or barristas.

  137. January 11, 2015 10:58 pm

    You say “elaborate bong” like it’s a bad thing.

  138. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 11, 2015 11:10 pm

    I’m old enough to remember the popularity of ‘Patra ‘ orange juice bottles (do young people use ‘Berri’ these days?)

    The elaborate bongs of the middle east did the same job but with far more sophistication, clearly demonstrating that they’ve added plenty to our cultural and leisure activities.

  139. January 12, 2015 12:10 am

    Was more of an Orchy man myself 🙂

  140. Tom R permalink
    January 12, 2015 8:05 am

    Was more of an Orchy man myself

    A two litre coke bottle and a bucket. Gives you the added excitement of pressurized inhalement (apparently) 😉

    Also apparently, Dryomm(PhD)esquires ignorance is due to a bout of humor 😯

    Perhaps a reading of actual events will be a catharsis then 😉

    https://books.google.com.au/books?id=TBbdjmEkupMC&pg=PA249&lpg=PA249&dq=western+atrocities+against++middle+east&source=bl&ots=u7okhAgYHJ&sig=FEKO6HeXSZWzBsPUhlzunenXNOk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4IevVPDRF8KumAWZoYH4CA&ved=0CDYQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=western%20atrocities%20against%20%20middle%20east&f=false

  141. egg permalink
    January 12, 2015 8:09 am

    Sheehan puts the boot into cognitive dissonance.

    http://www.smh.com.au/comment/these-crimes-have-everything-to-do-with-islam-20150111-12lxmn.html

  142. Tom R permalink
    January 12, 2015 8:12 am

    This is I think going to turn into a huge battle, and all because the libs are ideologically tied to destruction.

    The Australian Medical Association predicts many doctors will be caught out by a change quietly made by the Abbott government two days before Christmas which will cut the Medicare rebates which apply for short consultations for one class of doctors.

    AMA president Brian Owler said the last-minute change, which will take effect on January 19, is proof that the government’s second attempt at overhauling Medicare was “rushed” and “poorly thought out”.

    http://www.canberratimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/last-minute-medicare-change-evidence-of-abbott-government-bungling-says-australian-medical-association-20150111-12lytn.html

    Personally, I don’t think it wasn’t thought out. It has the clear aim to stop GP’s bulk billing

  143. Tom R permalink
    January 12, 2015 8:27 am

    sheehan IS cognitive dissonance

    Pakistan is dangerous. Afghanistan is a no-go area. Iran is an oppressive theocracy. Iraq is disintegrating. Syria is a disaster area. Lebanon is dangerous.

    he even highlights the end result of the core problem

    Most of them are dictatorships, monarchies, theocracies or failed states.

    All of them also have been victim to external machinations which has probably been the largest driver of the resultant dictatorships, monarchies, theocracies or failed states., which can arguably be traced back as far a Sykes–Picot (and probably before) and has only intensified since, and has really ensured that this region will have no prospect whatsoever of “Living in harmony” while this incessant imperialism remains.

    The carnage we see now, while abhorrent and wrong in every respect, owes itself directly to Western involvement. Blaming it solely on a religion is a cop out. The root cause is far deeper. A more temperate religion, like that of the New Testament (ignoring the old) might not have such a chilling outcome. But then again, it might. Just look to Jonestown to see how religions can be twisted for peoples own macabre motives.

    And see how current politicians use religions for their own purposes.

    Sydney Muslims attempted to help police find an Islamic State flag so the Lindt cafe gunman might free hostages, but now they feel they were “set up”.

    http://www.smh.com.au/national/sydney-siege-aftermath-muslims-feel-set-up-over-islamic-state-flag-request-20150111-12lyte.html

  144. Tom R permalink
    January 12, 2015 9:02 am

    Rowling pwns murdor

    JK Rowling attacks Murdoch for tweet blaming all Muslims for Charlie Hebdo deaths

    http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jan/11/jk-rowling-condemns-murdoch-tweet-charlie-hebdo-harry-potter-news-corp-muslims-christian

  145. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 12, 2015 9:29 am

    All of them also have been victim to external machinations which has probably been the largest driver of the resultant dictatorships, monarchies, theocracies or failed states”

    Because if they had been isolated from the rest of the world thye would be prosperous thriving democracies by now.

    Rowling is a moron. The only person born Christian was Christ. Sounds like she is just another posturing billionaire trying to claim some moral high ground from which to launch her gratuitous insults.

  146. Tom R permalink
    January 12, 2015 9:50 am

    Because if they had been isolated from the rest of the world

    Being isolated is a far cry from being dictated to by foreign powers.

    O Therapeftis possibly warrants a ‘quite watchable’ review.

    Perhaps you should review it for us sb? 😉

  147. Tom R permalink
    January 12, 2015 9:59 am

    Australians should not be cowed from speaking freely: Tony Abbott

    This, from the Ministraly of Truthiness themselves 😯

    I’m sure the “reporters” at the abc (are you with us, or against us?) can feel the sincerity.

  148. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 12, 2015 10:13 am

    The point, Tom R, is that Western interaction with less advanced societies was neither an unmitigated good nor an unmitigated evil. Some countries did better than others. They could either adapt or persist with their primitive ways. Those that have done worse, including most Muslim countries, chose the latter path. Compare India and Pakistan for example. The difference is that the Islamist culture foisted Pakistan by Zia ul Haq is both chauvanistic and primitive. That is a bad combination. India is doing better now, especially after moving away from its failed dalliance with leftist economics.

    This highlights another complexity – adopting the worst of Western ideas, such as socialism doesn’t help much. Those countries that have moved towards market economies have done better for obvious reasons.

    As to movies, I usually stick to romantic comedies. Sword and sandal epics designed to reinforce the prejudices of the filmmaker are fairly low on my must-see list.

  149. January 12, 2015 10:28 am

    I can’t find the words to describe how much I detest so called “romantic comedies.”

    Unless someone dies within the first five or ten minutes or so I’m not interested.

    Sword and sandal epics have too much posturing for my liking. All that standing about proclaiming stuff, although I imagine Abbott would be well suited to that sort of thing…

    Abbott the Barbarian, or Tony the Contrarian, that sort of thing perhaps.

  150. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 12, 2015 10:34 am

    “I can’t find the words to describe how much I detest so called “romantic comedies.”

    I used to be like that. I first knew I had a problem when I caught myself offering the opinion that “Maid in Manhattan” was a truly great movie. As my enchantment with the genre has grown I have learned to live with the social stigma that comes with it. Surely we are all entitled to our guilty pleasures.

  151. Tom R permalink
    January 12, 2015 10:42 am

    Sword and sandal epics

    I think you are missing the point sb. I think Meta put that up to highlight the enlightened era that prospered in the Arabian Peninsula during what is coined the Dark Ages in comparison to the ” primitive ways” of Western Europe.

    ebbs and flows, and all in between.

  152. January 12, 2015 10:55 am

    ao””Poverty has little to do with it.””:roll:””

    #Agree armchair, you are absolutely correct to give this Trickle-Down Teabag-Theory a big fcuking *roll*, as it is a `stock` answer from a know-nothing just like you-know-who.

    #Todays working example of highlighting how far up their own arse the zombies, mindless-chanters and tea-guzzlers really are, involves a low paid pleb, busted for theft from her employers, which reveals details of interest.

    +

    ””’Manttan pleaded guilty to fraud by an employee.””’

    ””’Manttan, 19, had entered an early plea. She had been employed at the store since June last year and was working about 15 to 20 hours each week and earning about $200, the court was told.”””

    #as`ya know armchair, a certain know-nothing, dumb-fcuk around here is regularly bleating what he deems is `reasonable` for other poor bastards to earn, but notice $200 above, thats `about` $12/$13 an hour.

    (`our` know nothing also recently stated `unemployed` get $400 a week, more horse-shit, it`s less than $300, l checked with a neighbor)

    +

    #back to the item,

    ””’Manttan had been going through a difficult time. Her family unit had been struggling financially and she had been trying to help pay the bills.”””’

    #looks like all those `greedy` worker comments `our` halfwit/s make are also wrong (oh the surprisement), the court has seemed to accept she was ””struggling-financially”” just to ””pay-the-bills””

    ”””She was placed on 12 months probation and ordered to pay back the money. No conviction was recorded.”””

    #the judges realistic decision, this is the real evidence of how far you-know-who has his head up his arse, even judges are starting to sound fair-minded and sensible.

    http://www.dailymercury.com.au/news/teenager-faked-transactions/2507382/

  153. egg permalink
    January 12, 2015 1:13 pm

    ‘Evidently not the people who tell survey gatherers and pollsters in droves that the ABC is the most trusted news organisation in the country by a considerable margin.’

    Brain washing works.

  154. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 12, 2015 1:33 pm

    “Meta put that up to highlight the enlightened era that prospered in the Arabian Peninsula during what is coined the Dark Ages in comparison to the ” primitive ways” of Western Europe. “

    I was trying to avoid that discussion because I haven’t made up my mind about it. Anyway, here is my current take on that issue.

    Notwithstanding the aura of gullible sanctimonious hagiography about some of the claims made for “Islamic” achievements there have in the past been periods of great cultural advancement in Islamic societies.

    These have been periods in which Islamic rulers have sponsored cultural and scientific advances. This has been seen at various times in places such as Abbasid caliphate, the Ottoman empire, India and Spain. Some of this arises from a continuation of the conquered culture and some because of the tolerant form of Islam which prevailed in these times. What often happened is that a new ruler would revert to a more fundamentalist interpretation of Islam which was generally very bad for cultural and scientific progress.

    For example the Abbasid golden age was stifled, even before the Mongol invasion, when Al-Mutawakkil, who was more fundamentalist than his predecessors, became Caliph. There is an interesting parallel with the fate of Greek philosophy under the Roman empire. Following the ascendency of Christianity in the Roman empire things were more uncomfortable for pagans, and by association the Greek schools of philosophy. Justinian closed the academy in the mid sixth century and many of the philosophers went East. It was from the schools that they established that the Arab translations were made after the seventh century Islamic conquests.

    The retransmission of Aristotle’s works to the west began with the translations of Greek philosophy into Arabic and its incorporation into the philosophical work of al Kindi, Avicenna and Averoes. Unfortunately these views were rejected in favour of those of al Ghazali who rejected philosophy in favour of the direct word of Allah. After his death the works of Averoes were burnt whereas the views of al Ghazali have prevailed. The view was taken that the Gates of Itjihad (independent reasoning) were closed in the 11th century. This is one reason the dominant schools of Islamic thought, even now, seem so impervious to change.

    What struck me when I visited the Arts of Islam exhibition at the Art Gallery of NSW a while back, apart from the beauty of the works on display, was that Muhammad was portrayed in some of the paintings. This is unlikely to occur today. Further, Islam today is probably less open to outside influences. There is very little in the way of translation of foreign works into Arabic.

    If the modern Islamists have their way there is unlikely to be any Islamic “enlightenment” anytime soon. One challenge to this comes from Egypt’s el Sisi who recently launched a recent attack on extremism:

    “We are in need of a religious revolution,” President Abdel-Fattah el-Sisi told imams on New Years Day at al-Azhar University in Cairo. The speech commemorated the birthday of the Prophet Muhammad.

    “You, imams, are responsible before Allah,” el-Sisi said. “The entire world … is waiting for your next move … because [the Islamic world] is being torn, it is being destroyed, it is being lost — and it is being lost by our own hands.”

    Similarly Purves Musharraf made an appeal for modernisation:

    “Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race,” he told the delegates.

    He called for action to address this problem. Unfortunately neither el Sisi nor Musharraf got much support from the Islamists or their mates in the Middle East Studies departments in Western Universities or from the political left.

    I would like to see scientific and cultural progress within the Islamic world. History shows that it is possible if the fundamentalists are brought to heel. I don’t see much hope of that happening any time soon.

  155. Tom R permalink
    January 12, 2015 1:54 pm

    If the modern Islamists have their way

    Fairly sweeping statement, imo

    I don’t see much hope of that happening any time soon.

    Neither do I, for many reasons, and much more than just religion.

  156. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 12, 2015 2:38 pm

    “Fairly sweeping statement, imo”

    It is, and I’m just giving it as an opinion. But I haven’t seen any evidence from any Islamist government to the contrary. Nor does the Muslim Brotherhood and its operatives give any cause for joy. Nor does Hizb ut-Tahrir. In fact I can’t think of any Islamist group who are likely to promote a more enlightened form of Islam. Most of that comes from secularists. The Quilliam think tank has a lot of positive ideas but is very much outside the mainstream of Islamic thought. Indonesia has a tradition of moderate Islam as exemplified by President Wahid who was a prominent Islamic scholar. I wouldn’t call him an Islamist. Indonesia also has a problem with radical Islamist movements and with the Acehnese who are quite hardline.

  157. January 12, 2015 2:43 pm

    Rowling is a moron

    I’m sure she has read all your work Splatter 🙂

  158. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 12, 2015 2:50 pm

    There are many celebs who should stick to their field of expertise rather than beclown themselves by spouting political nonsense. The execrable Russell Brand springs to mind.

  159. Walrus permalink
    January 12, 2015 4:54 pm

    “Just look to Jonestown to see how religions can be twisted for peoples own macabre motives.”

    Except for the deaths of a US politician and his travelling inspection party the only victims in that were the extremists themselves and anyone else they had under their parental control and in their very immediate geographic vicinity. And didn’t affect anyone else or threaten to

    Unless ISIL starts drinking green cordial in a mass suicide you dont have a point

    Islam encompasses religious beliefs, legal principles,political principles, economic principles, and a lifestyle to boot.

    Christianity also had elements of that which are far weaker today.

  160. Tom R permalink
    January 12, 2015 5:47 pm

    Unless ISIL starts drinking green cordial in a mass suicide you dont have a point

    So, mypoint is invalid?

  161. egg permalink
    January 12, 2015 6:35 pm

    ‘I would like to see scientific and cultural progress within the Islamic world. History shows that it is possible if the fundamentalists are brought to heel. I don’t see much hope of that happening any time soon.’

    China thinks they have the answer to bringing peace to the ME, it may take some time but they will start immediately.

    http://thediplomat.com/2015/01/china-hosted-afghan-taliban-for-talks-report/

  162. TB Queensland permalink
    January 12, 2015 7:58 pm

    Acting Prime Minister Warren Truss on why Prime Minister Tony Abbott hasn’t been campaigning with Premier Campbell Newman: “Premier Newman doesn’t need someone else to hold his hand. He’s an experienced premier. It’s his election.”

    Chuckle … couldn’t lie straight in bed …

    Cardinal Pell has a new book ready for release … “Confessions of Liberal Party Pollies” … LOL!

  163. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 13, 2015 10:01 am

    All Is Forgiven

  164. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 13, 2015 10:04 am

    It’s a pity when self-promoting egocentrics get in on the free speech act.

    CONTROVERSIAL cartoonist Larry Pickering has been placed under protective surveillance by counter terrorism police after he posted a derogatory picture depicting the prophet Muhammad on his website.

  165. TB Queensland permalink
    January 13, 2015 10:16 am

    Seems I’m not the only one! (Apologies for the tables of numbers – I’m sure you can figure it out)

    Author : Dr. Dale Kerwin
    School of Education
    MT Gravatt Campus, Grifffith University
    ph. 07 3735 5884 | fax. 07 3735 5991 | email: d.kerwin@griffith.edu.au

    Subject: Change the Entitlements

    I absolutely agree, if a pension isn’t an entitlement, neither is theirs. They keep telling us that paying us an aged pension isn’t sustainable.

    Paying politicians all the perks they get is even less sustainable! The politicians themselves, in Canberra, brought it up, that the Age of Entitlements is over:

    The author is asking each addressee to forward this email to a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask each of those to do likewise. In three days, most people in Australia will have this message. This is one idea that really should be passed around because the rot has to stop somewhere.

    Proposals to make politicians shoulder their share of the weight now that the Age of Entitlement is over:

    1. Scrap political pensions.
    Politicians can purchase their own retirement plan, just as most other working Australians are expected to do.

    2. Retired politicians (past, present & future) participate in Centrelink.
    A Politician collects a substantial salary while in office but should receive no salary when they’re out of office.

    Terminated politicians under 70 can go get a job or apply for Centrelink unemployment benefits like ordinary Australians.
    Terminated politicians under 70 can negotiate with Centrelink like the rest of the Australian people.

    3. Funds already allocated to the Politicians’ retirement fund be returned immediately to Consolidated Revenue.
    This money is to be used to pay down debt they created which they expect us and our grandchildren to repay for them.

    4. Politicians will no longer vote themselves a pay raise. Politicians pay will rise by the lower of, either the CPI or 3%.

    5. Politicians lose their privileged health care system and participate in the same health care system as ordinary Australian people.
    i.e. Politicians either pay for private cover from their own funds or accept ordinary Medicare.

    6. Politicians must equally abide by all laws they impose on the Australian people.

    7. All contracts with past and present Politicians men/women are void effective 31/12/14.

    The Australian people did not agree to provide perks to Politicians, that burden was thrust upon them.
    Politicians devised all these contracts to benefit themselves.
    Serving in Parliament is an honour not a career.
    The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so our politicians should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.

    If each person contacts a minimum of twenty people, then it will only take three or so days for most Australians to receive the message. Don’t you think it’s time?

    THIS IS HOW YOU FIX Parliament and help bring fairness back into this country!

    If you agree with the above, pass it on. If not, just delete.

    If you wonder why the above individuals are asking for your help look at the figures below.
    REMUNERATION – SPECIFIED STATUTORY OFFICES

    Date of Effect 1 July 2014

    Specified Statutory Office
    Base Salary (per annum)
    Total Remuneration for office (per annum)
    Chief of the Defence Force > $535,100 – $764,420
    Commissioner of Taxation > $518,000 – $740,000
    Chief Executive Officer, Australian Customs
    and Border Protection Service > $483,840 – $691,200
    Auditor-General for Australia > $469,150 – $670,210
    Australian Statistician > $469,150 – $670,210
    “PAY FREEZE, NOT FAIR. SOB, SOB”

    Salaries of retired Prime Minister and Politicians

    Office Additional salary (%) Salary as of 1 July

    Prime Minister 160 $507,338
    Deputy Prime Minister 105 $400,016
    Treasurer 87.5 $365,868
    Leader of the Opposition 85.0 $360,990
    House of Reps Speaker 75.0 $341,477
    Leader of the House 75.0 $341,477
    Minister in Cabinet 72.5 $336,599
    Parliamentary secretary 25.0 $243,912
    Other ministers 57.5 $307,329
    Shadow minister 25.0 $243,912
    Source: Remuneration Tribunal.

    So if I press all the right buttons, the TOTAL annual wages for the 150 seats in the Parliament are:

    Prime Minister $507,338
    Deputy Prime Minister $400,016
    Treasurer $365,868
    Leader of the Opposition $360,990
    House of Reps Speaker $341,477
    Leader of the House $341,477
    Minister in Cabinet $336,599
    Parliamentary secretary $243,912
    Other ministers* 307,329 x 71 = A$21,820,359
    Shadow ministers* $243,912 x 71 = A$17,317,752

    The TOTAL ANNUAL SALARIES (for 150 seats) = $41,694,311 – PER YEAR!
    And that’s just the Federal Politicians, no one else!

    For the ‘lifetime’ payment example (below) I used the scenario that:
    1. They are paid ‘lifetime’ salaries the same as their last working year and
    2. After retiring, the ’average’ pollie’s life expectancy is an additional 20 years (which is not unreasonable).

    It’s worth remembering that this is EXCLUDING all their other perks!

    SO, for a 20 years ‘lifetime’ payment (excluding wages paid while a Parliamentarian)

    Prime Minister @ $507,338 = A$10,146,760
    Deputy Prime Minister @ $400,016 = A$8,000,320
    Treasurer @ $365,868 = A$7,317,360
    Leader of the Opposition @ $360,990 = A$7,219,800
    House of Reps Speaker @ $341,477 = A$6,829,540
    Leader of the House @ $341,477 = A$6,829,540
    Minister in Cabinet @ $336,599 = A$6,731,980
    Parliamentary Secretary @ $243,912 = A$4,782,240
    Other ministers** @ $307,329 = A$6,146,580 x 71 = A$436,407,180
    Shadow ministers** @ $243,912 = A$4,878,240 x 71 = A$346,355,040

    Conclusions:

    TOTAL ‘life time’ (20 year) payments, (excluding wages paid while in parliament) = A$833,886,220 – OVER $833 MILLION
    Julia Gillard, Kevin Rudd, John Howard, Paul Keating, Malcolm Fraser, Bob Hawke, et al, add nauseum, are receiving $10 MILLION + EXTRA at taxpayer expense.

    Should an elected PM serve 4 years and then decide to retire, each year (of the 4 years) will have cost taxpayers an EXTRA Two and a half million bucks a year! A$2,536,690 to be precise.

    A 2 year retirement payment cut-off will SAVE our Oz bottom line A$792,201,909 *** NEARLY $800 MILLION.
    There are 150 seats in House, minus the 8 above = 142 seats, divided equally for example = 71 each for both shadow and elected ministers.
    This example excludes all wages paid while a parliamentarian AND all perks on top of that – travel, hotels, Secretarial staff, speech writers, restaurants, offices, chauffeured limos, security, etc. etc.
    150 seats, 20-year payment of A$833,886,220 less annual salary x 2 years of A$83,388,622. [$41,694,311 x 2]

    “Instead of giving a politician the keys to the city, it might be better to change the locks.”
    Doug Larson (English middle-distance runner who won gold medals at the 1924 Olympic Games in Paris, 1902-1981)

    YOU’RE RIGHT, YOU HAVE FOUND WHERE THE CUTS SHOULD BE MADE!
    ACTION:

    Push for a MAX 2 year post retirement payment (give ‘em time to get a real job).

    Spread it far and wide folks. People should know.

    Dr. Dale Kerwin
    School of Education
    MT Gravatt Campus
    Grifffith University
    ph. 07 3735 5884
    fax. 07 3735 5991
    email: d.kerwin@griffith.edu.au

  166. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 13, 2015 10:22 am

    Good on Pickering for doing his job as a cartoonist – skewering the sensibilities of the terminally stupid. Contrast this with that gutless moron First Dog:

    I don’t depict Muhammad because it’s probably racist and also I don’t get to put my family and my coworkers at risk of being firebombed.

    What race is Islam, fuckwit?

  167. TB Queensland permalink
    January 13, 2015 10:36 am

    What race is Islam, fuckwit?

    Yes, sb, I agree but what is the word with similar meaning … sectarianist springs to mind … off to check on the interwebby …

    BTW he First Dog does have a point has highlighted very recently in Paris … bullets are as effective as firebombs in this instance … 😯

  168. egg permalink
    January 13, 2015 10:52 am

    Pickering’s cartoon would look good on a T-shirt, but require courage or foolishness to wear it in Belmore.

  169. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 13, 2015 10:59 am

    “but what is the word with similar meaning … sectarianist “

    The relevant word might be “irreverent” or “provocative” or “transgressive”. Whatever.

    One of the causes of Paris shootings is the lesson the religious nutters have learned – intimidation works. Instead of standing up for free speech western leaders and media have caved in to Muslim demands. Prior to that the blasphemy laws were mocked out of existence. Now we have the collective mouthing of an obvious lie – Islam is a Religion of Peace™. The West has bought into the Islamophobia myth and the multiculti mantra demands respect even for the most vile religious beliefs.

    What the Paris massacre shows is one path to defeating these religious nutters – mockery. Mark Twain said that nothing can stand against the assault of laughter. This is especially so of a bunch of fuckwits who think killing is the answer to people laughing at them. The reason mockery is such a serious issue for Muslim fundamentalists is that their religion is so fucking ridiculous. How is it that a sex-crazed pederast warlord who obeys mysterious voices only he can hear becomes a figure of holy veneration for a billion and a half people?

    It the supine politically correct Western media who left it to Charlie Habdo to carry on the fight practically alone. Like First Dog they were too gutless to spread the risk. If every newspaper had, on the front page of every day’s issue, printed a small box with a Mohammad cartoon the battle would be soon won. There would be a huge outcry followed by a real discussion of free speech issues and a gradual acceptance of free speech. People need to understand that being offended is merely tolerance by another name. It is the price paid for living in a free society.

  170. TB Queensland permalink
    January 13, 2015 11:21 am

    Whatever.? That’s it?

    Now we have the collective mouthing of an obvious lie – Islam is a Religion of Peace™.

    That a limited narrative you’re spinning, sb, my next door neighbour is a Moslem …

    Ironically, Sister Gemma popped in to see us this morning, she now lives in Melbourne but she and a number of other sisters of mercy (over a period of years lived in the house opposite.

    People need to understand that being offended is merely tolerance by another name. It is the price paid for living in a free society.

    But the Extremists (let’s call them what they are) don’t want to be tolerant … they want to create a world of chaos so that they can bring Sharia Law to everyone …

    History has always repeated itself – the Extremists just happen to be 1000 years behind the catholic church …

    All religious wars have brought nothing but misery to the majority of people … and still are …

    And just how “free” are we? This government takes advantage of anything to squeeze freedoms daily!

  171. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 13, 2015 11:36 am

    “my next door neighbour is a Moslem “

    My point did not in any way concern people who describe themselves as Muslims. My point was that the statement “Islam is a Religion of Peace” is an obvious lie, not least because it entails that Islam is only one thing and that the maker of the statement (usually not a Muslim scholar) knows what Islam is. This is just another variant of the No True Scotsman fallacy which I thought would be well understood in these parts. 🙂

  172. Tom R permalink
    January 13, 2015 12:06 pm

    “Islam is a Religion of Peace” is an obvious lie

    Perhaps not obvious, since only a very tiny percentage of it’s proponents are actually violent.

    I wonder if the same ratio is applied to violent Christian fundies? Would be an interesting comparison.

    Perhaps for the pedants we should say “Islam is a Religion mostly of Peace” 😉

  173. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 13, 2015 12:25 pm

    …People need to understand that being offended is merely tolerance by another name. It is the price paid for living in a free society..

    Seems to be a very hypocritical, one-way street this ‘freedom’. The people who want the freedom to offend seem to want any dissent crushed from their own ideology crushed [IPA haven’t spoken up for the ‘I’m with stupid’ guy. Why can’t skits like chris kenny having sex with a dog create howls of outrage from the ‘freedom lovers’?

    Well lets have a truly free society then, not just the ‘freedom’ to offend, I want the freedom of information and the freedom from paying & supporting any religions, freedom from the market and it’s manipulations, freedom from politicians – no more allowances for governments and politicians to exempt themselves. Let’s have freedom from all censorships and freedom from libel/privacy laws.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/13/wikileaks-not-perfect-but-more-important-than-ever-for-free-speech

  174. Tom R permalink
    January 13, 2015 12:37 pm

    IPA haven’t spoken up for the ‘I’m with stupid’ guy.

    Their silence is deafening, and telling.

    Mark Twain

    “It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them.”

    Perhaps he thought that people actually had ‘prudence’. Unfortunately, not 😦

  175. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 13, 2015 1:02 pm

    “Perhaps not obvious, since only a very tiny percentage of it’s proponents are actually violent.”

    My statement wasn’t about “its proponents”. In many religions teachings are honoured more in the breach than the observance.

    “Perhaps for the pedants we should say “Islam is a Religion mostly of Peace” “

    That statement makes no sense. Islam isn’t one thing. There are many variants.

    One approach would be to look at particular beliefs. The idea that blasphemers and apostates should be punished for example is a vile belief. So is the idea that religion should be spread by the sword or that gays should be killed or that women should be subject to men and have less rights than men.

    Another approach might be to look at the laws in Islamic countries, especially those purporting to incorporate sharia law. Not a good look is it?

    Or we could look at the percentage of religiously motivated terror attacks carried out in the name of Islam.

    There may be some value in distinguishing between moderate and extremist versions of Islam although many Australian muslims reject the distinction.

    Pretending that Islam is one thing is just a vehicle for obfuscation.

  176. Tom R permalink
    January 13, 2015 1:37 pm

    Pretending that Islam is one thing is just a vehicle for obfuscation.

    I AGREE!

    So when laying the blame for these atrocities, it should be painstaking to separate the radicals from the average. That is all slogans like “Islam is a Religion of Peace” is attempting to do imo.

  177. January 13, 2015 1:48 pm

    I caught an Islamic taxi driver in Malaysia last week.

    He didn’t even try to kill me.

  178. January 13, 2015 1:51 pm

    “”Contrast this with that gutless moron First Dog:””

    I guess the intentional sarcasm of FD’s cartoon went completely over your head.

    In fairness however, you weren’t alone.

  179. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 13, 2015 2:07 pm

    “I guess the intentional sarcasm of FD’s cartoon went completely over your head.”

    I went back and re-read it. If FDOM was being sarcastic about cartoonists who won’t depict Mo because they are afraid or because they think it is racist to do so, it doesn’t come across that way. Seems more like he is giving his reasons for not depicting Mo. He hasn’t given any other reasons for not doing so. Maybe I’m just obtuse.

  180. Tom R permalink
    January 13, 2015 2:12 pm

    it doesn’t come across that way.

    I’d have thought the little text below that might give it away sb

    But maybe I’m just obese 🙂

  181. January 13, 2015 2:25 pm

    I think FD is deliberately bundling the religion/racist thing together, because that’s what most racist redneck types do.

    When I read it, I felt it was fairly obvious that he was taking piss out of those sorts of people – and sure enough our of the woodwork comes Cory Bernardi to validate the stupidity.

  182. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 13, 2015 2:33 pm

    The term Rechabites also refers to a religious order, similar in some ways to the Nazarites, and they are mentioned by Eusebius of Emesa.[9]

    In more recent times, the name has been used by Christian groups keen to promotetotal abstinence from alcohol, such as theIndependent Order of Rechabites. Many Muslims still claim descent from Rechab, among the nearly-universal claim of Arabs to descend from Abraham through Ishmael

    I used to think Rechabites were the most annoying, dull, intolerant types of religious nutcases around, but apparently they share their religious heritage with some muslims.

    Interesting .

  183. Tom R permalink
    January 13, 2015 3:07 pm

    He didn’t even try to kill me.

    Perhaps he just hadn’t got to know you yet 😉

  184. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 13, 2015 3:19 pm

    The text at the bottom of the cartoon only reinforces the claim that FDOM thinks religion = race; thus the statement that racist cartoons have now become a beacon for free speech.

    In any event, the idea that “racist” (in reality religious) cartoons are a beacon for free speech is hardly surprising. It is easy to defend free speech when you don’t find the speech in question offensive. The test of the sincerity of your commitment comes when you have to defend offensive speech.

    The same is true of due process rights – too many people seemed little concerned about David Hick’s right to due process because he is a grubby little wannabe terrorist. HL Mencken said it best:

    The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one’s time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.

    In this case FDOM seems to condemn the Charlie Hebdo killings while making it fairly clear that he won’t depict Mo in a cartoon because he thinks it is racist and he doesn’t want to get killed. Where he stands on free speech is anyone’s guess.

  185. January 13, 2015 4:05 pm

    That`s an excellent report on Canberra Perks TB, thanks, that`s going in the database! l notice the 76-or-so Senate perks are NOT included, which l assume will be in the `ball-park` of the HoR perks, so our `List` is only representing `about` 2/3rds of the trough-snouting we have to pay for.

  186. January 13, 2015 4:20 pm

    “”Perhaps he just hadn’t got to know you yet “”

    LULZ… 🙂

  187. TB Queensland permalink
    January 13, 2015 4:47 pm

    Pleasure joblista …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    SB,

    What do you think should be done about the Islamic extremist (jihadists) … what would be your strategy?

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Remember the F35?

    (apparently 150 have actually been delivered – faults an’ all! They recall motor cars at the manufacturers expense …

    Buying an F35 is like buying a house off the plan when they haven’t decide where to subdivide …

    Anyway the F35’s just got in a deeper hole (as was predicted over a decade ago)

    In ‘stealth’ mode, the F-35 can carry only two bombs and two anti-aircraft missiles. Its potentially equally sneaky opponents appear to be able to carry up to eight.

    In ‘non-stealth’ mode, the all-in-one F-35 has fittings to carry seven external objects. Its faster, more manoeuvrable and longer-ranged specialist opponents can carry double that.

    None of these differences can be improved through upgrades.

    So, does the F-35 have enough of a technological advantage to make every shot count? And are its performance deficiencies in the ‘basic’ arenas of speed, manoeuvrability, payload and range irrelevant?

    It’s an increasingly vicious debate being played out in think tanks, design rooms and halls of power around the world.

    http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/f-35-in-new-dogfight-over-chinese-russian-stealth-fighter-advances/story-fnpjxnlk-1227181998650

  188. TB Queensland permalink
    January 13, 2015 4:49 pm

    That statement makes no sense. Islam isn’t one thing. There are many variants.

    And many muslims who don’t want to find out how heavy your head is … I think that was the point some of us were making …

  189. Neil of Sydney permalink
    January 13, 2015 4:57 pm

    Amazing

    The lefties are commenting about the F-35’s

    The Australian Navy wants 12 submarines plus lots of other stuff. Rudd/Gillard wanted this.

    I can only conclude that lefties hate planes because they fly but lefties like submarines because they go under water.

  190. Tom R permalink
    January 13, 2015 5:12 pm

    I can only conclude ………. your brain has been left in a Japanese sub for too long.

    Although, this might be an indication of why people are upset

    Mr Burns pointed out that the Rand report showed while the AWD project was about 7 per cent over budget, similar projects overseas had blown out by many times that amount.

    http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/report-to-government-shows-future-frigates-project-could-go-overseas/story-fni6uo1m-1227182594930

    Fine for stuff we are buying from overseas to be over-budget and behind time, but not our own. Hypocrisy writ large

  191. TB Queensland permalink
    January 13, 2015 5:33 pm

    The lefties are commenting about the F-35’s

    No. I’m commenting on the F35 debacle as I have since they were first mooted for the RAAF … as any intelligent, regular contributor here would know …

    Politics is irrelevant – buying expensive shit with people’s taxes is* … you wouldn’t let these dicks (left and right and in between) go to KFC by themselves …

    Especially when our young men and women could die because of it!

  192. Neil of Sydney permalink
    January 13, 2015 5:40 pm

    Did you ever comment about the Collins class submarines???

    Also the F-35’s are not a disaster-yet. However they may become one.

    People like you said the same things about the F-111’s. And people like you were proved wrong.

  193. TB Queensland permalink
    January 13, 2015 5:42 pm

    And still they … co–ome

    Changes to Medicare, unveiled last month, include a $20 cut to the Medicare rebate for GP Level B consultations lasting less than 10 minutes, from $37.05 to $16.95, which is due to come into effect on January 19.
    A further $5 cut to GP rebates comes in from July 1, on top of a near-six year freeze on Medicare rebate indexation.
    Dr Parnis believes these changes will lead to increased out-of-pocket expenses for patients and higher health costs.
    He says the UK experience shows that when governments cut investment in primary health care, it means more people end up going to hospital.
    “They are sicker, and they are much more expensive to treat,” he said.
    The warning comes as a poll of almost 1100 doctors by Australian Doctor magazine voted former health minister Peter Dutton the worst health minister in the last 35 years.

    http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/doctors-warn-dont-make-gp-changes/story-e6frfku9-1227182924718

    This government just gets sicker and sicker … !!!

    And gets worse with each passing moment … adults in charge my arse …

    THE RSL has lashed out at the Abbott government for the below-inflation wage deal it imposed on sailors, soldiers and air force personnel.

    http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/rsl-deplores-govts-adf-pay-deal/story-e6frfku9-1227183562876

    1915 – 2015 We Will Remember Them – Lest We Forget!

  194. Neil of Sydney permalink
    January 13, 2015 5:53 pm

    TB

    Yes = lets us put everything on the credit card and stuff the next generation.

    I think you must walk around your house cresting mess left, right and center.

    And like all Labor party supporters you expect everybody to clean up the mess you created.

  195. January 13, 2015 5:58 pm

    Ha Ha. l see the single-use F35 flying trash-cans are still living up to their predictions of failure TB. l notice that 150 of these fault-ridden wrecks-waiting-to-happen have been `delivered` too, they aren`t valuing their pilots/crews lives too highly it seems.

    +

    ”””””’A looming shift in the balance of air power that threatens to eliminate the air superiority lead the West has held since World War II.

    An increasingly cash-strapped United States may be finding itself in a similar position to that of the United Kingdom before World War II

    a waning world power in deep denial of its fading might.

    All its air-defence eggs, along with those of most of its allies — are now in the one F-35 Lightning II basket. It’s too big to fail. There are no fallback options.””””””

    #stupid fcuks

    +

    ””””””””Seven years behind schedule and tens of billions of dollars over budget, it was revealed last week the next generation stealth jet won’t be allowed to fire its gun(*1) until 2019

    because of growing issues with the aircraft’s 8.4 million lines of software(*2). Other recent delays have included problems with the nose wheel, steering motor and an engine fire.

    Nevertheless more than 150 F-35s have already been delivered.

    But the debate is no longer about $700+ billion development issues. Concerns are being aimed at a raw comparison of fundamental proposed capabilities with competing stealth designs:

    The F-35 – the most expensive(*3) defence program in history”””””

    +

    1. expensive weapon and no gun.? FFS, what imbeciles

    2. software.? they do realize that it`s the computers in`em that allow`em to fly.? don`t they.?

    3. expensive.? and notice all this happened under teabag regimes, both here and in teh-usa, whatever happened to teabags claims of `economic-responsibility` they always crap-on about.?

  196. Neil of Sydney permalink
    January 13, 2015 6:11 pm

    Teabag predicts the F-35’s will be a disaster (TB as well).

    I therefore predict the F-35’s will be a wonderful plane

  197. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 13, 2015 6:41 pm

    “…obvious that he was taking piss out of those sorts of people – and sure enough our of the woodwork comes Cory Bernardi to validate the stupidity…”

    He is saying that he doesn’t draw major med because he’s not racist. Not hard to understand really!

  198. egg permalink
    January 13, 2015 6:49 pm

    ‘What do you think should be done about the Islamic extremist (jihadists) … what would be your strategy?’

    Before splatter gets back, I present the heathen Chinese model.

    ‘Calling for “meticulous” religious work, Xi stressed that there should be a focus on helping religion adapt to a socialist society and ensuring the role of religious figures and believers in boosting economic and social development.

    “Focus on fostering a team of patriotic clergy and boosting the general quality of people in the religious circle so as to ensure that the leadership of religious organizations is firmly in the hands of people who love the country as well as religion,” he said.

    ‘According to Xi, the basic principle for easing religious tensions is to protect legal religious activities, deter illegal and extreme ones, guard against infiltration and crack down on crimes.’

    China Daily

  199. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 13, 2015 6:53 pm

    And look at Larry pickering trying to claim some relevancy through the media. Funny how the qld police always seem so chummy and protective with the redneck racists.
    How many people even read pickering’s daily smut 🙄 who would bother killing him? He’s already the living dead.

  200. TB Queensland permalink
    January 13, 2015 7:15 pm

    An increasingly cash-strapped United States may be finding itself in a similar position to that of the United Kingdom before World War II

    Not quite, Tbagz, they had the Hurricane (the real hero of The Battle for Britain) and the Spitfire … and of course Barnes Wallis … the embryonic radar system … and the British Empire …

    The F-35 – the most expensive(*3) defence program in history”””””

    The most disastrous fuck up in modern military history!

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Before splatter gets back, I present the heathen Chinese model.

    The same people that shoot crims in the back of the head and send the bill for the round to the family … yep they know all about dealing with religions … Jesus fkn wept!

  201. TB Queensland permalink
    January 13, 2015 7:17 pm

    I therefore predict the F-35’s will be a wonderful plane …

    And I hope your right …

    Let’s hope it gets off the ground and flies before we need it!

  202. January 13, 2015 7:50 pm

    “”I hope your right …””

    I’m not going to say anything.

  203. egg permalink
    January 13, 2015 7:59 pm

    ‘Jesus fkn wept!’

    Christianity is fine in China, their biblical fairy tales are no match for Tao, and both deemed legal because they are socially harmless.

    Those organisations with Muslim connections will be infiltrated by the state and only non-violent clergy allowed to run the show.

    ‘Focus on fostering a team of patriotic clergy and boosting the general quality of people in the religious circle so as to ensure that the leadership of religious organizations is firmly in the hands of people who love the country as well as religion,” Xi said.

    Afghanistan will be a test case, a really hard nut to crack.

  204. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 13, 2015 8:25 pm

    What about the falon gong, where’s their freedom of religion?
    catholics and christian religious fundies of all stripes wouldn’t do well as they only recognise a ‘higher power’, everyone else including the state comes second.

  205. egg permalink
    January 13, 2015 9:07 pm

    Religion comes second to the State because the heathens have no faith in the Jewish, Christian and Muslim deity, but will tolerate non violent religions. Felon gong has been persecuted over recent times and I’m not sure why.

  206. egg permalink
    January 13, 2015 9:25 pm

    ‘Xi Jinping does not want to inherit Jiang Zemin’s Falun Gong persecution policy. The Legal Daily’s publication tries to deliberately embarrass Xi Jinping on his recently proposed Rule by Law.’

    – See more at: http://www.ntd.tv/en/programs/news-politics/china-forbidden-news/20141111/248837-chinas-official-media-suddenly-reports-on-falun-gong-.html#sthash.Dzn0Ggz0.dpuf

  207. January 13, 2015 9:30 pm

    “Felon gong has been persecuted over recent times and I’m not sure why.”

    I’m pretty sure it’s because they reject the “cultural revolution”, and value the 5,000 years of tradition and culture that preceded Mao.

    (Been touring the south-east coastline for a couple of weeks, starting with golf at Torquay, then surf at Woolamai, boating at Paynedvile, and currently being pissed on by rain at Merimbula.)

  208. January 13, 2015 9:31 pm

    *Paynesville

  209. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 13, 2015 10:27 pm

    …I’m not going to say anything…

    TB don’t do apostrophes anymore

    I support his right to boycott the queen’s english whenever he feels like it 🙂

  210. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 13, 2015 10:48 pm

    …I can only conclude that lefties hate planes because they fly but lefties like submarines because they go under water…

    neil is commenting on submarines and planes, I can only conclude that Neil hates the aust. navy and airforce and wants them all dead.

    Yes = lets us put everything on the credit card and stuff the next generation.

    You do realise that the national budget is nothing like your pathetic ‘kitchen table’ household budget?

    Repeat after me: the Australian economy is not like a household budget:
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/09/repeat-after-me-the-australian-economy-is-not-like-a-household-budget

  211. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 13, 2015 11:10 pm

    How’s this for fundamental tax reform? Target the rentseekers:
    https://theconversation.com/hows-this-for-fundamental-tax-reform-target-the-rentseekers-36018

    …Liberal politicians should favour shifting taxes off productive business and onto economic rents and the exploitation of shared resources because such reforms target market failure and free up productive and sustainable businesses to flourish. Labor politicians too should approve of these principles because they reduce taxes on labour and shift them onto the rent seekers who contribute little to society. The inherently progressive nature of most rent taxes should also appeal to The Greens, the Labor left and the increasing number of others concerned about economic inequality…

  212. Neil of Sydney permalink
    January 14, 2015 3:21 am

    “You do realise that the national budget is nothing like your pathetic ‘kitchen table’ household budget?”

    Actually i don’t. I liked this comment from your link

    The federal government can create money.

    Well lets print some money and pay off some debt. That whole article sounds like a leftists rant to justify reckless spending.

    Lefties are always looking for ways to justify their deficit budgets so they say debt does not matter our economy is not like a household etc.

  213. egg permalink
    January 14, 2015 7:39 am

    ‘I’m pretty sure it’s because they reject the “cultural revolution”

    Not really, this movement only began around the end of last century. This harmless group was persecuted by Jiang Zemin for political purposes and Xi needs to purge him to allow Falun Gong’s right to exist.

    On a recent visit to New Zealand.

    ‘With assistance from the police, the Falun Gong practitioners unfurled their banners along the street where Xi’s motorcade would pass. While waiting, several Chinese students, organized by the Chinese Consulate, came over and attempted to make trouble for them, but the police stopped them and ordered them to line up at a distance from the Falun Gong practitioners.

    “When the motorcade came, he [Xi Jinping] waved to us,” Jin Long said. “I waved back, and we shouted loudly: ‘Falun Dafa is good! Bring Jiang Zemin to justice!’”

    Epoch Times

  214. egg permalink
    January 14, 2015 7:46 am

    Paynesville Accommodation

  215. Tom R permalink
    January 14, 2015 8:20 am

  216. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 14, 2015 10:57 am

    ”What do you think should be done about the Islamic extremist (jihadists) … what would be your strategy?”

    That is a large and leading question, TB. Much as I would like to write you a lengthy response, as much to clarify my own thoughts as anything else, I don’t have time now.

    There is a local and a global aspect to this problem.

    The immediate local problem is the prospect of local terror attacks. There is also the wider issue of social divisiveness.

    I think it is right to focus on returning jihadis who have been trained oversees. The clinical nature of the Hebdo attack shows how dangerous well trained operatives can be. I would consider carefully the resources necessary to deal with this problem and listen to the advice of those charged with dealing with it.

    Multiculturalism must be formally abandoned or at least radically redefined. The goal must be to develop an Australian culture that takes contributions from all sources and explicitly rejects some of the more vile cultural beliefs and practices floating around. The last thing we want is a nation of cultural ghettos. We should try to avoid the situation where countries like the former Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia and Sudan found it necessary to split into different countries. It won’t be long before we hear calls for France to engage in negotiations with French Muslims that will result in the creation of two states for two peoples, living side by side in peace and security, with Paris as a shared capital. 🙂

    Culture is not static. It is always evolving. What Australia needs is a set of core principals that acknowledge that we all need to rub along and the freedom of others to follow their own beliefs must be respected insofar as they do not limit the freedoms of others. Another quote from Mencken illustrates the point: “We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.”

    Globally we need to have a serious look at the history of Islamic conquest from the beginning and the theological reasoning underpinning it. We need to understand that Islam is different from other religions (at least as they are practiced now) in that it is also a political system. The stated goal is to subject the world to sharia law under an Islamic Caliphate. We need to understand the various ways in which this theology and history are currently understood and practiced .

    I would have a good hard look at the rise of Wahhabism in the 18th century and the way in which the Saudis have spread it around the world. I would also look at the development of 20th Century Islamism from Sayyid Qutb to the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood in its various guises and its spread into various jihadi groups.

    More immediately on the global front we should identify the numerous places where Islamists are fighting to install their repressive program. There are lot of these – Syria, Algeria, Chad, Mali, Nigeria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Thailand, the Philippines to name a few. Then we should assess which countries are interested in stopping the progress of this movement and what resources they are prepared to commit to the task. I would also look at recent history to see what worked and what hasn’t. Has Western support of the “Arab Spring” made things any better? Did the surge work in Iraq? We should look at what went wrong and how things might be done better.

    We should take notice that Islamist groups in Libya, Nigeria, Afghanistan and Pakistan have pledged loyalty to Islamic State. I don’t think leaving Islamic State to fester and grow and wreak carnage wherever it has control is good option, but there may be no better option right now. I think the lesson of WWII is that if you have a chauvinistic expansionist ideology which is growing in military power and expanding the territory it controls the sooner you deal with it the better. It may take a few more events before Western countries feel the need to take action.

    I don’t think appeasement and accommodation of chauvinistic beliefs is the answer.

  217. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 14, 2015 11:00 am

    How stupid is Chris Westinghouse, not to mention the troll who posted his comment? There is a difference between desecrating your own private property and desecrating someone else’s.

  218. TB Queensland permalink
    January 14, 2015 12:52 pm

    sb, like the reply … thanks for keeping it short … 😉

    I agree with the WWII analogy … but I don’t agree with sending a few warriors over and over and over again … in fact I don’t like the “right” answer … having been caught in the machinations personally … and knowing how I felt when my son was placed in harm’s way … and I’ve always dreaded my grandchildren having to go to war … especially one over some twits imaginings of a god …

    But these thugs from IS and Al Queda need stopping!

  219. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 14, 2015 1:41 pm

    I don’t think appeasement and accommodation of chauvinistic beliefs is the answer.

    That’s a very interesting and thoughtful post SB.

    I’m not in favour of standing by while a group that supports rape & enslavement, religious & ethnic cleansing, genocide, “convert or die” expansionism… just go about their activities…but I’m also not certain of the specific response.

  220. TB Queensland permalink
    January 14, 2015 11:08 pm

    … but I’m also not certain of the specific response.

    Indeed!

  221. Walrus permalink
    January 14, 2015 11:23 pm

    JP Morgan Bank have released their quarterly results in the USA.

    Quarterly Results….. It needs repeating

    Legal fees US $ 990 million

    Sigh…………

    I have wasted my life doing tax stuff

    Ok Lefties have your cliched shot along the lines of “wasted anyways”

    As I gaze out over Palm Beach and the Tasman LOL

  222. January 14, 2015 11:39 pm

    Morgan and the Kock brothers are criminal illuminati… fuck them they are evil

    Walrus with all due respect, I couldn’t give a flying fuck where you live quite frankly

  223. egg permalink
    January 15, 2015 7:51 am

    ‘The goal must be to develop an Australian culture that takes contributions from all sources and explicitly rejects some of the more vile cultural beliefs and practices floating around.’

    Homogenisation is what Menzies encouraged and it worked.

  224. egg permalink
    January 15, 2015 8:12 am

    ‘I couldn’t give a flying fuck where you live quite frankly.’

    I enjoy Walrus discussing his home turf, its important to appreciate how the other half live. Kitty said something similar to Pann a couple of years ago and I remember thinking how pathetic.

    By the way, in order to raise the lower middle class it maybe necessary to reduce the income of the upper middle class. Gina’s wealth alone will not bring about a revolutionary outcome.

  225. Tom R permalink
    January 15, 2015 8:47 am

    Gina’s wealth alone will not bring about a revolutionary outcome.

    You prove yourself a fucken idiot yet again egg

    It is her use of her wealth to try and manipulate the system so she can pay her workers less that has people fucked off. try to keep up.

    And yea, good luck to wally. I hope he enjoys his heavily subsidised by my taxes views. Nice work if you can get it 😉

    but I’m also not certain of the specific response.

    I AGREE!

    I just argue that doing the WW! equivalent of “charge the trenches again” aint the way to go. The first step is acknowledging where the problem comes from, and how we as a global community can tackle it.

    btw sb, I have enjoyed your long posts about the topic. But, I will pick on one point

    We need to understand that Islam is different from other religions (at least as they are practiced now) in that it is also a political system

    I don’t disagree with that, it is very political. But, so is Catholics here in oz. We currently have a pm who, although our laws pretend separation of powers, is doing his utmost to conjoin them again.

    I agree with most of what you have written, but just note that of all the ills (and they are many) you have highlighted in Islam, many of those are found in other religions. I would argue that it is not the specific religion, but the history of wars and subsequent subjugation of various peoples from them that has lent them down this path. Religion is merely(?) (OK, it is a big part) the lighting rod that enables the step over the cliff into martyrdom.

    I could as easily imagine a world turned upside down where those practicing Christianity was swapped with those practicing Islam, but the rest of history remains the same, and I am sure there would be small pockets of zealots who practiced the old testament view of an “eye for an eye” over the new version of “turn the other cheek”.

    Hell, there is already a very small contingent of them now.

    Simply put, imo, the religion is the tripping point, but hte core issues that force these people to these extremes lie far deeper.

    You will not get rid of religion (in the foreseeable future), but the poverties these peoples are born into, created from years of external machinations for their own benefits (and many times from their own cultural beliefs), can be alleviated.

    We had a window of opportunity in Afghanistan to rebuild with cultural swings, but bushes Iraq offensive blew that out of the water.

    After such a mess, I still come back to this … but I’m also not certain of the specific response. 😦

  226. Walrus permalink
    January 15, 2015 9:50 am

    “” I couldn’t give a flying fuck where you live quite frankly””

    LOL……………….talking about “”maintaining the rage”

    Typical Leftie……………….so much anger……………..and so little power.

    🙂

  227. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 15, 2015 11:02 am

    “We had a window of opportunity in Afghanistan to rebuild with cultural swings,”

    I don’t think that was ever a realistic prospect. Even if nation building is possible, the West does not have the stomach to make the commitment to give it a shot.

    The technology of violence has improved to the level that it takes fewer people to disrupt and cripple a society by being able to regularly inflict mass casualties and destroy infrastructure.

    Further, the ideology that must be defeated is not some recent political theory like communism or a nationalist theory like Nazism or Japanese militarism. Firstly it is a religion and secondly it is very old and deeply embedded. Jihad was the means by which Islam conquered the land from Spain to India in less than a century. It resonates strongly with those who desire Islam to recover its former dominance and complete the mission of a universal caliphate.

    Thus, even if the majority of Afghanis prefer to be governed by a modern democracy, and I think they do, the jihadis will still keep coming. Even if they are driven out of Afghanistan they will still come from across the border. Jihadism will be defeated only when the number of people willing to fight and die for that ideal is so low that they cannot seriously disrupt a peaceful society.

    At the moment there is no real agreement on how to deal with the long term threat. I don’t even see a compelling theory on how this might be done. Virtually the only thing that can be done is to intervene in particularly nasty situations to try to relieve the suffering of people being slaughtered. It is unrealistic to think of victory. The best we can hope for is to slow down the jihadhist enterprise.

    Nigeria exemplifies the problem. It does not appear to have the ability to defeat Boko Haram. Nor do neighbouring countries or Western countries appear to be disposed to contribute much to the fight. The consequence of this is that it is likely that much of Northern Nigeria, if not the whole country, will fall to Boko Haram.

    Pakistan is a bigger problem in that if the jihadis succeed there it may well come to nuclear war with India.

    It will probably take much greater jihadi activity in Europe before western countries are prepared to unite and mobilise on the scale of WWII to deal with the situation globally.

  228. egg permalink
    January 15, 2015 11:06 am

    ‘It is her use of her wealth to try and manipulate the system’

    She doesn’t have the power.

  229. TB Queensland permalink
    January 15, 2015 11:09 am

    Legal fees US $ 990 million …

    Chicken feed … out of the $4.9 BILLION profit!

    Money is a bit like intelligence and/or knowledge … some have more – some have less … some improve with age – some get worse … some use it wisely – some simply waste it … some are born with it some – and some have to earn it …

  230. Tom R permalink
    January 15, 2015 11:24 am

    the West does not have the stomach to make the commitment to give it a shot.

    So it was shown 😦

    It will probably take much greater jihadi activity in Europe before western countries are prepared to unite and mobilise on the scale of WWII to deal with the situation globally.

    That is where we differ the most I guess. This would be giving the Jihadists exactly what they want.

  231. Tom R permalink
    January 15, 2015 11:37 am

    She doesn’t have the power.

    😯

  232. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 15, 2015 11:54 am

    “That is where we differ the most I guess. This would be giving the Jihadists exactly what they want.”

    I guess you mean that tactically that is what they want. Ultimately what they want is the submission (which is what islam means) of the world to rule by sharia law under a caliphate.

    What their political theory and tactics show is that they seek to control small areas under sharia law and expand them as they can. The spectacular attacks are propaganda of the deed to attract Muslims to their cause.

    They would only want global war when they are in a position to win it. Then they would welcome it.

    I am always suspicious of the “giving them exactly what they want” excuse. This is often used to justify all manner of hypocrisy, delusion and cowardice.

  233. TB Queensland permalink
    January 15, 2015 12:04 pm

    I am always suspicious of the “giving them exactly what they want” excuse. This is often used to justify all manner of hypocrisy, delusion and cowardice.

    Could you expand on that? Especially – justify, hypocrisy, delusion and cowardice. Just who are you talking about?

  234. Tom R permalink
    January 15, 2015 12:08 pm

    This is often used to justify all manner of hypocrisy, delusion and cowardice.

    Or sometimes it is just what it says it is. There is nothing these people want more than to die “die in glorious battle”. And, a global war would be a massive” propaganda of the deed to attract Muslims to their cause.”

    As I said, we (collectively) have been “bombing them into submission” for decades. And everytime we do it, the reaction is only ever more barbaric and extreme.

    For someone with what appears to be a good grasp of history, it would not hurt to pay attention to it now and then.

  235. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 15, 2015 12:22 pm

    I very much concur

    Tomr @ 08:47

  236. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 15, 2015 12:37 pm

    “…By the way, in order to raise the lower middle class it maybe necessary to reduce the income of the upper middle class…”

    Whatever happened to the mantra “a rising tide floating everyone’s boats”?

    Now that has proved to be a giant fraud by the capitalists, you spruik the lowering of the middle class wages and lifestyle to accommodate the poor. How about having more taxes and the lowering of income imposed on the subsidised and rent seeking incomes of the 1% ? I think that is more equitable.

  237. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 15, 2015 1:31 pm

    TB and Tom R, I am trying to be as rational as I can. But, to be perfectly honest, I am constantly checking myself from giving vent to my wilder thoughts. Just reading stuff seems to engage my rage reflex sometimes. I know that is not the way to understand the issues and the options and I try to rein it in.

    The classic example of the “giving them exactly what they want” excuse is the idea that we shouldn’t identify Islamic terrorists with Islam. The theory being that the Islamic terrorists do indeed want to be identified with Islam. My own view is that if there is no real effort made to study the theological basis of Islamic terrorism, if you are not even willing to use the “I” word, then you are unlikely understand what we are up against and the best methods of combatting it. If you think it is all about mental health, poverty and “white privilege” then your assessment of the problem and its solutions will be skewed.

    Further, that view may lead you to the conclusion that, having nothing to do with Islam, the terrorists have no support within Islam and are only a “tiny minority”. Again this may lead to a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue. It seems more likely to me that, although only a small number of people are actually committed to terrorism at any particular moment, there may be a lot of sympathy and support for them within the wider Muslim community.

    I’ve never been a fan of “tiny minority” theory. Take the International Union of Islamic Scholars. Dr Ibrahim Abu Mohammed, Grand Mufti of Australia, is a member. Its president is Yusuf al-Qaradawi. Qaradawi is one of the most popular Islamic preachers. His al Jazeera TV audience is about 60 million. He doesn’t like Jews much:

    Throughout history, Allah has imposed upon the Jews people who would punish them for their corruption … The last punishment was carried out by Hitler. By means of all the things he did to them – even though they exaggerated this issue – he managed to put them in their place. This was divine punishment for them…. Allah Willing, the next time will be at the hand of the believers.

    While Qaradawi says his views differ somewhat from those of Islamic State, he opposes western action against them. If you read the link above he appears to be all over the shop on a lot of issues. Understanding this stuff is never easy but by looking closely at prominent Islamic figures and institutions we might gain a better understanding of “Islam”, whatever it is, and why so many terrorists act in its name, than by just adopting the “tiny minority” mantra.

  238. Tom R permalink
    January 15, 2015 1:47 pm

    I know that is not the way to understand the issues and the options and I try to rein it in.

    acknowledged. And, as I said, I am enjoying your posts.

    “Islam”, whatever it is

    And I think that is the key. It is like saying “are you Christian” which can encompass a wide variety of religions all under the one banner that rarely agree on much. Except the one almighty god, and his offspring.

    The classic example of the “giving them exactly what they want” excuse is the idea that we shouldn’t identify Islamic terrorists with Islam.

    That’s really taking one extreme and ignoring another, imo.

  239. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 15, 2015 2:05 pm

    “That’s really taking one extreme “

    But it is exactly what Hollande said last week about the Hebdo killers.

    If someone wants to fight you, in fact is hell-bent on conquering you, then sooner or later you are going to have to fight or submit. In this case I don’t know when that might be but it is quite possible that, whether or not it is exactly what they want, we may have no choice.

  240. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 15, 2015 2:18 pm

    Once the Middle East erupts the moderates will decamp and become refugees leaving the place to the nutcases.

  241. Tom R permalink
    January 15, 2015 2:48 pm

    But it is exactly what Hollande said last week about the Hebdo killers.

    Not sure of your reference here??

    then sooner or later you are going to have to fight or submit.

    No doubt. And isn’t that what we are doing now?

    As I have said, I’m not a big fan of the bombing campaign, but I also don’t know another solution, except troops on the ground, in which case, you need a bombing campaign. But we need Arab involvement and, because of our past and also recent behavior, you can perhaps understand their reticence?

    But to ramp it up to a global event ….

    These are a very small number of dissidents, even within their own country. Keep it localised, no matter how much they want to expand it.

    Yet I feel they will be successful, as our brave brave medias reaction to the Sydney siege showed. It’s almost as if they want it more than the dissidents.

  242. egg permalink
    January 15, 2015 3:09 pm

    ‘you spruik the lowering of the middle class wages and lifestyle to accommodate the poor.’

    Kitty the wealthiest 1 per cent is an elite club, where you need to earn at least $211,000 to be a member. There is not enough in this to uplift the poor, so we may need to dig a little deeper.

  243. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 15, 2015 3:32 pm

    Hollande said: “Those who committed these acts have nothing to do with the Muslim religion.” He probably didn’t want to give the killers exactly what they wanted – recognition that they are Muslims acting in the name of Islam.

    And isn’t that what we are doing now?”

    Not really. Now we have some piecemeal intervention to slightly assist the Kurds. Also we are not yet at the stage where we have to choose fighting or submission. I hope we don’t get there.

    “Keep it localised, no matter how much they want to expand it.”

    How do we keep it localised? If we could freeze things now that might be a better outcome than anything else available despite the suffereing of those under jihadist rule. But Boko Haram is making progress in Nigeria and has sworn allegience as have the Taliban in Pakistan and Afghanistan and a group in Libya.

    There is no chance of global action now and it may not come to that. I didn’t suggest it occur now. If it does come we may get some help from Muslim countries. Jordan and some other Arab countries are sort of helping now.

  244. Tom R permalink
    January 15, 2015 3:53 pm

    Hard to disagree with anything you have said there sb.

    If we could freeze things now

    If only we could have frozen things ten years ago
    twenty
    a century

    If only 😦

    If only the Arch Duke hadn’t gone touring 😦 (sorry, still suffering from my exposure to Hardcore History: Blueprint for Armageddon)

  245. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 15, 2015 5:03 pm

    If only we could have frozen things ten years ago
    twenty
    a century

    I’m with James McAuley on this: “In spite of all that might be said against our age, what a moment it is to be alive in.”

    The Hardcore History reference is interesting, TomR. I travel by train to work (about 45 mins each way) and listen to a lot of audiobooks – mainly non-fiction. If you are interested I could send you a USB drive with some stuff on it to a PO Box or some anonymous address. Email me at splatterbottom -at- gmail.com. Same offer for TB.

  246. Tom R permalink
    January 15, 2015 5:25 pm

    Thanks for the offer TB, but HH is keeping me flat out at the moment.

    I just found out the other day that they released a heap of his earlier ones for free as well.

    Mind you, I’m tempted to stump up the cash for the remaining early ones. But. moneys too tight to mention at the moment 😦

    http://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-series/

  247. January 15, 2015 7:59 pm

    l notice splatter is still suffering from quite a bit of teabag-panic regarding `muslims`. Every dog-club has fundies waiting to crawl out of the wood-work if given the chance. The `turmoil` of the middle-east you lot are referring to, (has in the majority of instances), been inflicted on the area from outside/foreign sources for centuries, since the romans(teh-west) invaded.

  248. TB Queensland permalink
    January 16, 2015 12:37 pm

    Once the Middle East erupts the moderates will decamp and become refugees leaving the place to the nutcases.

    You must keep up ToM … that’s been happening for over a DECADE!

  249. TB Queensland permalink
    January 16, 2015 7:53 pm

    If it does come we may get some help from Muslim countries. Jordan and some other Arab countries are sort of helping now.

    Coupla points … do you recall that I mooted very early in the ISIL saga that we DO NOT send troops … but we could support Islamic boots on the ground … involvement (ownership of the fight) is extremely important …

    And that’s because this is primarily a Sunni/Sh’ite civil war … and modern governments should not get involved in civil wars … especially religious wars …

    Aligning murderous thugs with the general population of Muslims is like blaming the strange Christian cults on all Christians … although I do concede that authorities in the west do eventually get pissed off enough to take them out …

    Just like they should with the silly “radical” Islamic preachers in Australia … knock ’em off NOW …

    Clean our own back yard up covertly and quietly before it controls us … and I can’t be a lone wolf in that thought! (Politicians are generally fkn wimps when it come to hard decisions tho’ …)

    I do believe that any ex-military personnel who want to own a weapon (because of training and respect for what they can and can’t do) should be able to … I’d bet you won’t see too many Islamic hits in Switzerland …

    We need to concentrate on the radical dicks here at home as do the Poms and the Septic Tanks … and let the ME take care of their problems …

  250. TB Queensland permalink
    January 16, 2015 8:05 pm

    TB and Tom R, I am trying to be as rational as I can.

    And respect for that, sb … I think that’s why the “regulars” stay here … honesty and intelligence …

  251. TB Queensland permalink
    January 16, 2015 8:10 pm

    sb, just saw this … Same offer for TB.

    Many thanks, I still prefer to read history* (my quack likes audio pods) …

    *Tom Clancy ain’t history but shit he predicted a lot! Book I just finished had Jack Ryan suggesting the best way to “hit” Russia was through its oils … and using Saudi Arabia (“aren’t they our friends?” – if they are friends wouldn’t want them as fkn enemies!)

    Written in 2002!!!

  252. January 17, 2015 12:29 am

    ”””had Jack Ryan suggesting the best way to ”hit” Russia was through its oils”””

    #double-edge sword l think TB, recent media bleating has had the new-ussr cutting budgets to all Depts, due to loss of revenue caused by fall in petrol/oil price.

    #The flip-side bleating is teh-usa tar-sands and shale-oil projects are much less viable as oil/petrol price drops.

    #Maybe saudi (like-me) is sick to fcuking death of both super-powers and in a two-bird, one-stone decision, decided to arse-fcuk both of`em by increasing output, thus lowering price.

    #go-saudi 🙂

  253. egg permalink
    January 17, 2015 6:56 am

    The plain truth is that shale oil coming out of the Americas has upset the traditional oil suppliers. The Saudis will let the market find its own level.

    Meanwhile, Russia has been caught between a rock and a hard place so China is going out of its way to woo them.

  254. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 17, 2015 9:42 am

    More evidence that reb allows even the most stupid c**ts to post here-
    ” #go-saudi

    Saudi Arabia has postponed the next round of flogging for a blogger sentenced to 1000 lashes for insulting Islam because his wounds from last week’s beating have not yet healed, his wife says

    The public flogging of Raif Badawi, who is also serving a 10-year jail sentence, has sparked an international outcry and a campaign by Amnesty International and other rights groups to free him.

    http://www.theage.com.au/world/saudi-arabia-postpones-lashing-sentence-for-blogger-raif-badawi-20150116-12s8m1.html

    That’s 50 down, only 950 to go… “#go-saudi”

  255. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 17, 2015 10:21 am

    Eight factors that shape how Muslims see the West:

    http://www.crikey.com.au/2015/01/14/eight-factors-that-shape-how-muslims-see-the-west/

    …While Tony Abbott would have us think the West’s hands are clean, a look at our actions in the Middle East reveal plenty of cause for resentment, writes Scott Burchill.

    1. The torture of innocent Muslims by the CIA
    2. The illegal invasion of Iraq and the destruction of Iraqi society
    3. The longest war in US history against Afghanistan (2001-15) achieved virtually nothing
    4. The ongoing murder of innocent civilians in Yemen, Pakistan and Afghanistan by US pilotless drones.
    5. US and Australian governments enabling and cheerleading Israel’s attacks on Gaza’s population
    6. Western support for corrupt, fundamentalist tyrannies in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Bahrain
    7. The ongoing bombing campaign by the USAF, RAF and RAAF against IS in Iraq
    8. The charnel house that is Syria…

    Glen Frost [re the above article] :

    …Excellent article. Those of us who have family, friends and/ or business contacts from various Middle East and Asian nations know this is how not just Muslims, but many non-Western nationalities perceive the west. In addition to Dr Burchill’s points, I could also mention the perceived extended influence on nation states like Iran, by the West (ie Britain, Russia and the USA) over the past two centuries, not just the past two decades…

    …Having lived with IRA terrorism and bombings for 20 years in the UK, I do know three things; our governments consistently try to deceive us (now proven thanks to WikiLeaks, NSA/Snowden etc), you can’t defeat terrorists, and governments will (in the end) negotiate with the terrorists to make peace. The British threw everything at the IRA, and they didn’t die, surrender or disappear. There came a point in the 1990s when a majority of ordinary British people said “enough — we want peace with the IRA”. It just took the political will to do it…

    Iran–United Kingdom relations:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93United_Kingdom_relations

  256. TB Queensland permalink
    January 17, 2015 10:38 am

    The Galaxy poll reveals massive swings of up to 12 per cent against the Newman Government across southeast Queensland that could deliver power to Labor with the help of independents.The Galaxy poll reveals massive swings of up to 12 per cent against the Newman Government across southeast Queensland that could deliver power to Labor with the help of independents.

    http://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/polls-promises-and-leadership-speculation-as-queensland-heads-toward-election/story-fnj4alav-1227187867436

  257. January 17, 2015 2:46 pm

    “Eight factors that shape how Muslims see the West.”

    He doesn’t mention the Koran. I’d have it at number one.

  258. January 17, 2015 2:48 pm

    Pat Condell: Nothing to do with Islam.

  259. January 17, 2015 3:44 pm

    #So not only is the saudi `oil-dept` effective, the `blog-troll-Dept` looks pretty effective too.

    #Dear yomm`s boss, congratulations on the opening of your companies new office in saudi, please give the highest consideration to promoting yomm to the position of `Senior Personal Fluffer, Saudi Branch`.

    #go-saudi

  260. January 17, 2015 4:06 pm

    ”””The Galaxy poll also found the LNP could be wiped out across north Queensland.”””

    #Do you find this `poll` believable TB.?

    #lt sounds like pre-hatched chicken counting horse-shit to me. lsn`t FNQ still full of teabumpkins.? l find it pretty hard to believe electorate after electorate of teabumpkins will switch-to-indies/dump-the-teabags all in one hit. Usually the teabumpkins need repeated and continual kicking to the head from the teabags before they eventually go indie.

  261. January 17, 2015 5:45 pm

    The Economist, 2002: “The most delicate issue of all, again carefully skirted by the authors of the report, is the part that Islam plays in delaying and impeding the Arab world’s advance towards the ever-receding renaissance that its intellectuals crave. One of the report’s signed articles explains Islam’s support for justice, peace, tolerance, equilibrium and all good things besides. But most secularists believe that the pervasive Islamisation of society, which in several Arab countries has largely replaced the frightening militancy of the 1980s and early 1990s, has played a significant part in stifling constructive Arab thought.

    “From their schooldays onwards, Arabs are instructed that they should not defy tradition, that they should respect authority, that truth should be sought in the text and not in experience. Fear of fawda (chaos) and fitna (schism) are deeply engrained in much Arab-Islamic teaching. “The role of thought”, wrote a Syrian intellectual “is to explain and transmit…and not to search and question.”

    “Such tenets never held back the great Arab astronomers and mathematicians of the Middle Ages. But now, it seems, they hold sway, discouraging critical thought and innovation and helping to produce a great army of young Arabs, jobless, unskilled and embittered, cut off from changing their own societies by democratic means. Islam at least offers them a little self-respect. With so many paths closed to them, some are now turning their dangerous anger on the western world.”

    http://www.economist.com/node/1213392

  262. January 17, 2015 6:22 pm

    From the same Economist article:

    “Nor are foreign books much translated: in the 1,000 years since the reign of the Caliph Mamoun, say the authors, the Arabs have translated as many books as Spain translates in one year.”

  263. TB Queensland permalink
    January 17, 2015 8:03 pm

    … cut off from changing their own societies by democratic means. Islam at least offers them a little self-respect

    And those of us brought up in democracies question the concept these days with the Robber Baron mentality of many Western governments …

    We need an amalgam of democracy, socialism, communism, (but certainly NOT religion!) … and also a mix of capitalism and command economics …

    Way beyond my pay grade … but whatever we end up with is always corrupted by greed and the “born to rule” mentality …

    … why the fk does 1% of the population get away with arsefucking the other 99%!

  264. January 17, 2015 9:38 pm

    “Way beyond my pay grade”

    Correct.

  265. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 17, 2015 10:46 pm

    “#go-saudi”
    #go-floggings
    #go-stonings
    #go-public-beheadings

    …#go-nonsensical-f**kwts

  266. January 17, 2015 10:54 pm

    That`s a nice find from the `Capitalists-Bible` Tinfoil`osy.

    +

    From their schooldays onwards, `Capitalists` are instructed that they should not defy `boardrooms`, that they should respect `teh-market`, that truth should be sought in the text and not in experience. Fear of `Consumer-Rights` and `Fair-Wages` are deeply engrained in much `Economic` teaching. ”The role of thought”, wrote an `Accountant` ”is to explain and transmit.. and not to search and question.”

    +

    #The great thing about all `isms` and ideologies Tinfoil`osy, is that they are all designed from the same generic template. #teabags

  267. January 18, 2015 1:35 am

    ”””’The arrest of this French comedian so soon after the epic Paris free speech march underscores this point more powerfully than anything I could have written about the selectivity and fraud of this week’s ”free speech” parade. It also shows – yet again – why those who want to criminalize the ideas they most dislike are at least as dangerous and tyrannical as the ideas they target: at least.”””’

    #Ha-ha dunny, teh-west is still suffering from `do-as-l-say-not-as-l-do` syndrome. #TeabagPanic

    +

    #Did you catch-on to the `correction` at the bottom.? #Guffaw

    ”””Correction: This post originally identified Dieudonné as Muslim. That was in error, and the article has been edited to reflect that correction.”””

  268. TB Queensland permalink
    January 18, 2015 10:57 am

    “Way beyond my pay grade”

    Correct.

    At least I’ve got one …

    The West World is full of hypocrisy … its hate that’s the real problem …

  269. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 18, 2015 11:15 am

    toilet’s link so well displays the hypocrisy of our rulers and the ‘system’ they enforce on the rest of us. Corporations and their messengers have the freedom to insult and offend any minority or political target they like, yet run screaming to their lawyers whenever they get a bit of their own [chris kenny is a good example].
    IPA still trying to get rid of 18C so that bolt and the other trumpets can carry on with their hate speech. Haven’t noticed assange and snowden free to tell us what our governments are doing in our name while staring into a camera and lying their heads off..
    The pollies are ensuring that we have less and less rights to privacy and freedom from the state’s intrusions into our life and business, our freedom to speak truth to power is non existent., the hoops we’d need to jump through ensure we are mute while it ends up nowhere. We don’t even have the power to take to the streets in a people’s uprising without the state’s forces being used against it’s own people.
    Free speech glorified for the likes of pickering, bolt and hadley and free speech stomped on for those who oppose them and their messages of hate and division.

    Charlie hebdo was never about free speech, they already had that right and used it well. The utter hypocrisy of the most tyrannical world leaders standing their holding hands while they use the power of the state to kill their own people who dare to speak freely.

    As a Muslim, I’m fed up with the hypocrisy of the free speech fundamentalists:
    http://www.newstatesman.com/mehdi-hasan/2015/01/muslim-i-m-fed-hypocrisy-free-speech-fundamentalists

    …Has your publication, for example, run cartoons mocking the Holocaust? No? How about caricatures of the 9/11 victims falling from the twin towers? I didn’t think so (and I am glad it hasn’t). Consider also the “thought experiment” offered by the Oxford philosopher Brian Klug. Imagine, he writes, if a man had joined the “unity rally” in Paris on 11 January “wearing a badge that said ‘Je suis Chérif’” – the first name of one of the Charlie Hebdo gunmen. Suppose, Klug adds, he carried a placard with a cartoon mocking the murdered journalists. “How would the crowd have reacted?…

    How about our freedom warriors here using their free speech to attack the anzacs, the volunteer firies, the jewish lobby or the farmers, how much shrieking outrage would there be? Tim wilson is a disgrace to the organisation that he was parachuted into, the abbott government has become a parody of freedom and human rights.

    https://newmatilda.com/2015/01/14/giving-bigots-more-rights-wrong-response-charlie-hebdo-massacre

  270. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 18, 2015 12:17 pm

  271. January 18, 2015 2:11 pm

    Yes, it must be a struggle for those of you who want to restrict speech. Racist speech, hate speech, anti-gay speech, anti-(certain)religous speech, holocaust- and climate-denialism. Must be hard to figure out where to draw your line.

  272. Neil of Sydney permalink
    January 18, 2015 2:40 pm

    Speaking of free speech i have been banned at AIMN

    theaimn.com/cost-unemployment/

    Michael Taylor January 17, 2015 at 9:04 pm

    Neil’s work here is done. I’ve now sent him out to pasture.

  273. egg permalink
    January 18, 2015 3:04 pm

    Congratulations, being banned from that cesspit makes you a member of an elite cadre.

  274. Neil of Sydney permalink
    January 18, 2015 3:11 pm

    The really annoying thing is that i was banned for preaching the truth.

    I was also posting on a thread that was almost dead so that i could not be accused of derailing the thread.

    Natural totalitarians are lefties.

  275. egg permalink
    January 18, 2015 3:52 pm

    ‘i was banned for preaching the truth.’

    Only from your perspective, which is outside AIMN groupthink.

    ‘I was also posting on a thread that was almost dead’

    You are a troublemaker commenting on ‘almost dead’ threads your version of the troof, it was bound to come to a sticky end.

  276. Neil of Sydney permalink
    January 18, 2015 4:06 pm

    The stupid thing is that without contrary opinions a blog just becomes an echo chamber.

    By the way we were talking about the definition of being employed is that you only have to work one hour/week.

    For years lefties told me it was a Howard/Costello invention.

    Well it was actually codified by the ILO (International Labor Organisation) in 1982. And most probably in use for a long time before 1982. A long time before Howard/Costello

    But it is a strange definition. The ABS says you are employed if you work one hour/week

  277. egg permalink
    January 18, 2015 4:48 pm

    ‘…a blog just becomes an echo chamber.’

    That’s the incestuous nature of citizen journalism.

  278. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 18, 2015 5:26 pm

    Neil, those people only allow you to participate so that they can have the satisfaction of banning you. That’s what they enjoy.

    What they don’t enjoy is challenge.

  279. January 18, 2015 6:24 pm

    Free speech and preaching truth…
    oh how delusion rules the immature mind 🙄

    I suggest to both EGG and Nils to submit articles to articulate their positions so they can be prosecuted in open forum rather that be tub thumping obstinate trolls…

    Such consistent obstinate behavior is not acceptable in person what makes you poor deluded fools it is acceptable in life. ?

    Many conservatives have been asked to pen articles over at AIMN but they all seem to be frightfully scared of critical analysis, just like this failed government

    Essentially put up or shut the fuck up.

    Its simple.. this government is ineffective, chaotic, and incompetent in every portfolio as demonstrated by their pathetic attempts at constructive and sustainable policy.

    They personify everything that they said they would not be and painted themselves as something they are no namely liberal conservatives. This is a ragtaggle bunch of neocon,lobby gobbling neo-radicals cloaked by stolen terms like “conservatism” and “liberalism” to hide their radicalism their undisclosed social engineering agenda

    Abbott has all the triggers for a double dissolution… bring it on now before he does any further damage…lets see him put up of shut up…lets test his “mandate”

  280. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 18, 2015 6:48 pm

    “Essentially put up or shut the fuck up.”

    Yeah, right Ricky.

    You might explain why reb and I are banned there, among a range of others.

  281. January 18, 2015 8:25 pm

    Tom I don’t run the blog I just write there so essentially in that regard I don’t have to explain Jack Shit to you..

    One thing I find quite amusing with you Tom is you fancy yourself as a bit of a thinker however constantly take statements out of context and try to twist them to suit your own extremely closed minded slant on the world…

    I stand by my assertion, and maybe you too should ask what you are bringing to the table shit or sugar?

    Maybe you could direct me to some of your articles so I can read your work?

  282. TB Queensland permalink
    January 18, 2015 8:43 pm

    Rupert’s Rag is now advising Australians on correct usage of a fridge … from the London Telegraph, FFS! … its been 35C in Brisbane for the last four days … bunch of Fuckwits!

    http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/food/top-tips-for-a-fresher-more-organised-fridge/story-fneuz8wn-1227188363297

    Maybe we should advise them on how to keep warm during winter …

    Stupid is as …

  283. TB Queensland permalink
    January 18, 2015 8:45 pm

    You might explain why reb and I are banned there, among a range of others.

    Oh! Please, Sir! Can I, can I, sir … oh please let me!

  284. January 18, 2015 9:33 pm

    Oh! Please, Sir! Can I, can I, sir … oh please let me!

    Well in Tom, Nils and El Gordo’s case, extremely Good taste I would assume TB

  285. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 18, 2015 9:50 pm

    you fancy yourself as a bit of a thinker

    Certainly Ricky, I wouldn’t think anyone at all would mistake you for one.

  286. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 18, 2015 10:13 pm

  287. January 18, 2015 11:11 pm

    Certainly Ricky, I wouldn’t think anyone at all would mistake you for one.

    Oh that one is just too good for me Tom…so considering the cracking few days I have had socially…. I will just say

    How remiss of me Tom, your work did not come up in the conversation I was having with Peter Garret, Murray Cook, Holger Brockman and Glen A Baker last night at the 40th anniversary JJJ dinner…
    What is it you do again?.. do you have a link to your essays? or do you confine your genius insight strictly to commenting in the blogashere?
    I’ve seen your disability work and its soooo impressive..all that first hand knowledge is so insightful 🙂

  288. January 18, 2015 11:24 pm

    ROFL this thread has got immensely funny since the Hob-Goblins started whining about having their coffee-rations clipped. Great retorts back at the Hob-Goblins everybody.

  289. January 18, 2015 11:55 pm

    ROFL The comedy continues!

    ”””you fancy yourself as a bit of a thinker..Certainly Ricky”””

    #Regurgitating onions=boo, slave_wage=reasonable, and being regularly horse-whipped for stupidity does not a `thinker` make.

  290. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 19, 2015 8:49 am

    ”I was having with Peter Garret, Murray Cook, Holger Brockman and Glen A Baker

    How thoroughly fascinating. You must be terribly important Ricky to talk to those types of people , and yet you take the time to pass on your self important insights to us little people.

    How kind.

  291. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 19, 2015 10:17 am

  292. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 19, 2015 10:20 am

  293. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 19, 2015 10:20 am

  294. armchair opinionator permalink
    January 19, 2015 11:23 am

  295. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 19, 2015 11:24 am

    Cunt Carlton describes someone else as a “posturing fuckwit”. Too funny for words.

  296. January 19, 2015 12:39 pm

    How thoroughly fascinating. You must be terribly important Ricky to talk to those types of people , and yet you take the time to pass on your self important insights to us little people.
    How kind.

    Are you also vertically challenged in addition to your stunted and somewhat overstated intellectual capacity Tom?

    I make no apology for wading in the big pool, we are all small people with big dreams who, unlike you don’t hold opinions.. rather enable them through real discourse.

    Don’t normally drop names, (I could do it all day) but in your case I feel an exception by way of contrast, see in the real world true intellectuals never close their mind to anything especially relevant civil discourse of ideas.

    I do duly respect your right to be ignorant , but don’t sell me bullshit and tell me its true , especially when it part of my reality.

    Please link me to your articles… blow me away 🙂

  297. Tom R permalink
    January 19, 2015 12:55 pm

    wow AO, that peace ( 🙂 ) in the oz by wison the wank is … well .. wank. Loved this bit

    In practice, 18C declares you guilty, 18D allows you to profess your innocence.

    What a ridiculous statement.

    Administratively, 18C also makes it easy to take action; all you need is an aggrieved party and an arguable case.

    Actually, that is it’s strength imo. It means that protecting yourself from defamation isn’t restricted to rich fucks.

    It’s this interpretation that led to former Sydney Morning Herald columnist Mike Carlton facing a complaint under 18C because of his disgraceful anti-Semitic language.

    Does this mean that wilson is about to launch an 18c case against Carlton? That would be funny to watch. If not, maybe Carlton will be launching a similar kind of case right back at the Commissar for this bucket’o’piss 😉

  298. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 19, 2015 7:16 pm

    http://www.news.com.au/world/isis-execution-frenzy-gay-men-thrown-from-tower-17-crucified-adulteress-stoned-to-death/story-fndir2ev-1227189884759

    ISIS militants have gone on an execution frenzy in Iraq, murdering at least 20 people in a 48-hour period, including two men “found guilty” of being gay.
    Photographs of the killings, shocking even by the group’s barbaric standards, have been circulating on social media since last Thursday.
    They include images of two blindfolded men being hauled to the top of a seven or eight story tower before being thrown to their deaths, one at a time, as a large crowd watches from below.

    I’m sure somehow this is our fault.

  299. January 19, 2015 7:28 pm

    Those who adhere to the extreme views of the so-called “”Prophet Mohammad”” can go fuck themselves in much the same way as christians who view leviticus as a guide for modern living can do likewise.

    #fuckthemall

  300. Tom R permalink
    January 19, 2015 8:01 pm

    I’m sure somehow this is our fault.

    How do you come to that conclusion?

  301. TB Queensland permalink
    January 19, 2015 8:06 pm

    Noice ta see your engagin’ agin … sreb!

  302. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 19, 2015 8:20 pm

    Apparently all the things going on in the Middle East is due to us, that must include this.

  303. January 19, 2015 9:36 pm

    NYT: Marine Le Pen: “Let us call things by their rightful names, since the French government seems reluctant to do so. France, land of human rights and freedoms, was attacked on its own soil by a totalitarian ideology: Islamic fundamentalism. It is only by refusing to be in denial, by looking the enemy in the eye, that one can avoid conflating issues. Muslims themselves need to hear this message. They need the distinction between Islamist terrorism and their faith to be made clearly.

    “Yet this distinction can only be made if one is willing to identify the threat. It does our Muslim compatriots no favors to fuel suspicions and leave things unspoken. Islamist terrorism is a cancer on Islam, and Muslims themselves must fight it at our side.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/19/opinion/marine-le-pen-france-was-attacked-by-islamic-fundamentalism.html?_r=1

  304. egg permalink
    January 19, 2015 9:51 pm

    “Islamist terrorism is a cancer on Islam, and Muslims themselves must fight it at our side.”

    Strongly Agree

  305. Splatterbottom permalink
    January 20, 2015 10:01 am

    I noticed the following story today and did a bit of reading around the issue:

    ISIS militants have gone on an execution frenzy in Iraq, murdering at least 20 people in a 48-hour period, including two men “found guilty” of being gay.
    Photographs of the killings, shocking even by the group’s barbaric standards, have been circulating on social media since last Thursday.

    They include images of two blindfolded men being hauled to the top of a seven or eight story tower before being thrown to their deaths, one at a time, as a large crowd watches from below.

    I have often heard Western politicians (who are not Islamic scholars) declare that Islamic State has “nothing to do with Islam” so where did Islamic State get the idea for throwing homosexuals from the tower. It turns out that Ali, Mo’s son-in-law and the fourth of the Rightly Guided Caliphs, prescribed this as a punishment for homosexuality. Recently the Saudi Ministry for Education published this guidance:

    Homosexuality is one of the most disgusting sins and greatest crimes…. It is a vile perversion that goes against sound nature, and is one of the most corrupting and hideous sins…. The punishment for homosexuality is death. Both the active and passive participants are to be killed whether or not they have previously had sexual intercourse in the context of a legal marriage…. Some of the companions of the Prophet stated that [the perpetrator] is to be burned with fire. It has also been said that he should be stoned, or thrown from a high place.

    It seems that only 8 or 9 countries prescribe the death penalty for homosexuality. In the UK not one of 500 Muslims recently surveyed thought that homosexuality was morally acceptable, though the percentage was higher in other European countries.

    On the good side in 22 Muslim majority countries homosexuality is not criminalised at all.

    Also, there appears to be some recognition of the pleasures of homosexuality in the afterlife. Some Muslim scholars interpret the Koranic verse “And immortal boys will circulate among them, when you see them you will count them as scattered pearls.” as supporting the view that homosexuality is a pleasure to be enjoyed in the afterlife.
    Further, Muslim rulers enjoyed the same pleasure in this life – Mehmed II conqueror of Constantinople demanded the 14-year-old son of one of the city’s Christian leaders as his concubine. Subsequent Ottoman administrators also engaged in homosexuality, often with the boys of conquered populations.

    To add to the confusion it seems that even the most radical Muslims support homosexuality in some circumstances:

    Abu al-Dema al-Qasab, informed jihadis of an “innovative and unprecedented way to execute martyrdom operations: place explosive capsules in your anus. However, to undertake this jihadi approach you must agree to be sodomized for a while to widen your anus so it can hold the explosives.
    ….
    the overarching rule of [Islamic] jurisprudence asserts that “necessity makes permissible the prohibited.” And if obligatory matters can only be achieved by performing the prohibited, then it becomes obligatory to perform the prohibited, and there is no greater duty than jihad. After he sodomizes you, you must ask Allah for forgiveness and praise him all the more. And know that Allah will reward the jihadis on the Day of Resurrection

    The Underpants bomber had explosives in his rectum although I couldn’t find any mention of how his anus was dilated to allow them to be inserted.

    Anyway, it seems to me that far from being a bizarre anomaly practised by a bunch of ignorant thugs, the practice of throwing homosexuals from high places has some warrant in Islam. Islamic State seeks to imitate the first three generation of Muslims so it is easy to see where they get their theological warrant. Further, they are not alone in this view as the Saudi Government is still propounding it. And they are not marginal to Islam.

    This supports a view that far from being a bunch of crazies who have “nothing to do with Islam”, Islamic State represent a strand of Islam which still has wide support even if most Muslims don’t go that far. Recognising this rather than denying any connection to Islam is a necessary first step to understanding modern jihadists like Islamic State.

    It is much harder to get from “moderate Muslims” a clear condemnation of Islam as propagated by the Saudi government than to get a denunciation of Islamic State. We need both to carry the debate forward.

  306. TB Queensland permalink
    January 20, 2015 11:15 am

    sb, similar contradictory preaching can be said of the bible too … thou shalt not kill (murder) … stands out in Christian countries who still practice capital punishment?

    The strict interpretation is up to what/how individuals (or priests/ministers/imams/monks) interpret …

    I know theology is considered to be a science … but its not … its just a bunch of sayings, opinions and actions perpetrated by people who need to control others for whatever reason …

    If the “crowd of people” watching the “executions” needed to research why the men were murdered they have only one source … the Quran … the real problem is ignorance … the ultimate answer is education and knowledge …

    ISIL is 500 years behind the rest of the world … and just as there are many branches of christianity who have all gone through vicious and bloody beginnings that’s exactly what is happening in the ME right now …

    And yes, Saudi Arabia is a real issue for me too … I watched first hand as my son in law travelled back and forth over 15 months and his stories and attitude hardened after every trip back (he was project manager for construction of a gold mine) …

    One of the stories he told was that there were no women on the site at all. But each morning he had to send a crew around to find and destroy any condoms … another – a French engineer lost his watch … only one man – cleaner entered his cabin … he was accused and his left hand was cut off … a few weeks later and the watch turned up the Frenchman wanted to tell the authorities … he was stopped when they told him he would lose his hand … for false accusation …

    I certainly would fight against Sharia Law …

  307. Tom of Melbourne permalink
    January 20, 2015 11:21 am

    … the ultimate answer is education and knowledge …

    This is probably true TB, but there are plenty of places in the Middle East that have experienced improving literacy and education, but the extremist ideology still takes hold and grows.

  308. January 21, 2015 8:09 am

    ”””the ultimate answer is education and knowledge”””#disagree #somewhat-strongly

    #some sheep don`t want to think for themselves, they prefer to join a herd and bleat the `label` that appeals to them, some recent common labels are, `jihad`, `saddam-has-wmd` and `onions=boo`.

    #marketing/pr/advertising types often blather they are `educating` the public, giving `knowledge` to the voter etc

    #the problem (as l see it) is all regimes/nations don`t behave `ethically` or with `fairness` (entrenched in taxation systems), (widely reflected in so-called media orgs) and/which discourages good, clear, ethical, fair thinking and thought processes. ln fact, the machinery in place, really only enhances/encourages the opposite, impoverished reality-denial and mindless team-cheering.

    #lt wouldn`t matter how much `education` and/or `knowledge` you try and pump into sheep under any `label`, as they will still prefer to bleat their label(jihad,WMD,onions) and deny reality that doesn`t fit their label.

    ”””ISIL is 500 years behind the rest of the world””” #imo these sheep are using their `label` just as effectively as the `WMD` sheep used their `label`

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